146 How to turn 'wasted' drafts and subverted tropes into your writing superpower with Charlene Wang
October 1, 2025 • 14 mins
What if the tropes you love are actually holding your thriller back?
In this episode, Charlene Wang reveals how she transformed the beloved campus novel into a feminist revenge thriller by strategically subverting genre expectations.
And the results landed her a major book deal.
You'll discover the counterintuitive truth about "wasted" drafts (spoiler: nothing is ever wasted), learn how to weaponize social media as a character psychology tool rather than just a plot device, and understand why the most compelling morally gray characters make us root for their goals while questioning their methods.
If you're struggling to make your thriller feel fresh or your contemporary setting feel authentic, this conversation will fundamentally change how you approach revision and might just save you years of trial and error.
Bio:
Charlene Wang was born in Beijing and, after immigrating to the US when she was three, has lived in seven different cities from Los Angeles to Rockville to Biloxi. Graduating with a B.A. in English from Dartmouth College and a J.D. from University of Virginia School of Law, she worked as a litigator for six years before quitting to pursue her childhood dream of becoming an author. She now lives in Brooklyn, NY, with her fiancé and their dog Winky.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Gwyn (00:00):
today we are joined by Charlene Wang to talk about,
(00:04):
I'll follow you a revenge storyset against the backdrop of an
elite college.
We're gonna talk about how shereinvented some novel tropes for
a thriller audience, what makescomplicated characters and
friendships so interesting onthe page, and how contemporary
themes can be used as tools ofsuspense.
Charlene, thanks so much forhanging out with me on the
Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast.
Charlene Wang (00:24):
Hello.
Excited to be here.
David Gwyn (00:26):
Yeah, I'm really excited to to chat with you.
So let's kind of dive right intoit.
Can you give us a, a littleoverview here for all of what
all follow you is about?
Charlene Wang (00:35):
Yeah, I'll follow you, is about two best friends
who collaborate on an Instagramaccount that turns them into
viral sensations, but when oneis accepted into an elite
college and the other followsher there, they're battle to
control the narrative.
Spirals into obsession, abettingtheir friendship and their
lives.
(00:55):
It's a campus novel, but it'salso a feminist revenge
thriller.
And how it gets there is halfthe fun.
David Gwyn (01:02):
Yeah.
It's, it's a great read.
Really, really fun to read.
Highly recommend people pick itup.
Tell me a little bit about the,the setting in the story.
Why set it on on this campus?
Charlene Wang (01:12):
So I've always loved campus novels.
The secret history you know, aseparate piece.
Those were always like myfavorite books growing up.
I also went to Dartmouth, whichis a very small insular college
up north.
And I think for thrillers it'sthe perfect setting because it's
closed, it's insular.
You have a bunch of young peoplefrom all different backgrounds
(01:34):
thrown in together.
And you know, there's usuallywith campus novels and outsider
who is try like striving reallyhard to fit in with this elite
inside crew.
And that always leads tovolatile results.
So it's just super fun to readand it was really fun to write.
David Gwyn (01:53):
Yeah.
I think that's, that's reallyinteresting that you bring that
up.
I, I often, as I, I, I do a lotof these podcasts.
I, I read a lot of thrillers andI love to hear authors talk
about where their story is setand'cause it always matters a
lot in thrillers and I feel likepeople.
Don't think enough about thatthat they kind of breeze over
it.
They're like, oh, I'll make themcamping because it's remote.
It's like, but maybe not.
Right.
And I think that this is such agreat example of how you used a
(02:17):
setting and it wasn't just likea random thriller, pick it off
the shelf type
Charlene Wang (02:22):
Right.
David Gwyn (02:22):
And I think that, I think that was really cool.
And so did you always know,like, was this always part of,
of how you're going to set thisnovel or did this come about as
you were kind of writing throughit?
Charlene Wang (02:32):
No, you know, truth, truth be told, when I was
22 and I just graduatedDartmouth, I told myself if I
ever write a novel, it will be acampus novel.
And you know, lo and behold,many, many, many years later.
David Gwyn (02:48):
You did it.
That's awesome.
So tell, tell me a little bitabout, about getting into this
setting here.
Like what did you have to do toreally, because I feel like you
nailed the setting, so like whatdid you have to do to really get
yourself back into that?
That kind of, that kind of vibe.
Charlene Wang (03:01):
That's a good question.
One way was, this is a sub genrethat is, has a huge tradition
behind it.
So I love the Secret History andI've read that book so many
times.
And one of the core assumptionsthat I realized about the secret
history was that, you know, it'sreally about this blank slate
(03:21):
protagonist who arrives oncampus and it just.
Seems magically he, the pastrecedes in the rear view mirror
and he's able to kind of, youknow, infiltrate this new group
of friends that he's, you know,really, you know, he finds
really dazzling.
And I kind of wanted to subvertthat with this book because, you
(03:45):
know, when I was, when I went tocollege, I found that the past
was not so easy to let go of.
And, you know, I wanted to showmy protagonist faith.
She has this really messyfriendship that really shaped
her.
And when she gets to campus, youknow, she, she's still in the
shadow of that.
And it really affects the wayshe, you know thinks about the
(04:05):
world, the way she patterns herinteractions with other people
that she meets on campus.
And so I really wanted to showthat, you know, this isn't a
blank slate protagonist.
This is someone who quiteliterally the past.
Comes knocking on her door inthe form of her best friend
Kayla, who shows up at her dormone night, mid-semester.
And so it, that was really the,the, the engine that, that I,
(04:30):
you know, really capture myimagination with this book.
And yeah.
And that's, that's one of themany, many fun, fun tropes of
this genre.
I mean, I could talk foreverabout it.
David Gwyn (04:42):
good.
Well,
Charlene Wang (04:43):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (04:43):
you another question about it.
So, so I'm glad,'cause I, Ithink this was really
interesting too.
I, I think when, and I'm gonnatalk a little bit more about
this.
When we talk about themes, Ifeel like thrillers I feel like
thrillers sometimes overlook thedeeper aspects of storytelling
that they, you know, as, aswriters we're focused more on
pacing and on character and on,like, are we, are we hooking the
(05:04):
reader?
Yes, all those things, but alsolike, is there something deeper?
And I think, you know,mentioning the secret history,
I, you know, I, as you kind ofwere talking about that, I could
see that in your writing.
And that's, that's a novel thathas like a lot of deeper
undertones to it as well.
So, so my question as I kind ofroundabout get to it.
Is one of the many things I, Ithought you did a great job of
(05:25):
here was infusing those kind ofnew elements while keeping the
tropes that readers love.
And you mentioned that kindalike the subverting and, and
maintaining some, some parts of,of these types of stories.
So my question is just like, howdid you decide what to retain,
what to subvert, what to add tothis, to this sub genre that
already exists?
Charlene Wang (05:44):
Yeah.
So, you know, I think part of itis it's always anchored in my
own personal experience.
And, you know.
For example, one of the, thetropes is the compelling
professor figure that the, theprotagonist meets and is, you
know, just really there's aseductive pull and, you know,
(06:07):
the pursuit of knowledge is likea common theme in these dark
academia novels.
So, you know, I want, I knew Iwanted a professor but I felt
like, you know, with acontemporary campus novel.
It's difficult to put aside thepower imbalances with that
relationship.
And so, and I knew that this.
This novel would be set post MeToo.
(06:28):
And so that kind of, that kindof made me, that opened the book
for me.
In that, you know, I think thatwithout giving away too much,
this relationship that she haswith her art conservation
professor is not all in the IvyLeague tower talking about art
and conservation.
It, it also has a lot ofproblematic power dynamics.
(06:51):
And I think that was reallyfitting with, you know, the
world we live in today.
David Gwyn (06:55):
Yeah.
I, I think that makes a lot ofsense and, and kind of leaned
right, right into the next parthere where I wanted to talk a
little bit about themes.
As I mentioned, that's one placewhere I think the thriller genre
maybe would, maybe it just getsa bad rep.
But I feel like a lot ofthriller writers, a lot of
popular thriller writers, likepumping out novels that are,
like I mentioned, the pacing'sgreat,
Charlene Wang (07:13):
Hmm.
David Gwyn (07:14):
is great, but maybe they're not doing the, the kind
of deeper thematic work.
And so I'm, I'm wondering aboutyour work weaving in modern
culture like this kind oftraditional suspense framework.
So where did that come from anddid you find it difficult at
times to do that?
Charlene Wang (07:29):
Very.
So you know, this is a bookabout influencers, social media,
and I think that social media inparticular is really tricky to
get on the page.
When you use internet language,it has the risk of sounding
dated,
David Gwyn (07:43):
Mm-hmm.
Charlene Wang (07:44):
and.
I think that for a long time Istruggled with that.
Many, many drafts had to bethrown into the trash before I
got the balance right.
But I think the trick for me waswhen I took a step back and I
realized that, you know, socialmedia is essentially a mirror to
a character, psyche.
It can also be a mask and it canbe a really great engine to use
(08:08):
to, you know, see like how dothey disguise themselves.
How do they, you know, affectother people's lives?
How do they like try to affecttheir own lives through this
parallel social media identity?
And it's, I think it's.
Difficult to get right in thesame way that, you know, they
sometimes say music is hard toget right on the page.
(08:31):
Like you can never quite capturethe magic of music.
And I think social media too,like that, feeling that
claustrophobia is really hard.
But I try to focus on, you know,like at any given point, if it's
being used as a, as a plot, likewhat is the emotional reaction
to that?
And and I think that helped mereally crystallize it.
David Gwyn (08:53):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And I think it is a challengethat, that a lot of writers.
Have I've been seeing more andmore people u utilizing social
media, I think, because it's,it's, you know, the reality of
the world we live in.
If you wanna set a contemporarystory, it's hard to avoid, you
know, the internet
Charlene Wang (09:07):
Right.
David Gwyn (09:08):
all the other things.
And, and so I, I think that'sreally interesting and I, I love
the way you're thinking about itas like not just a plot device
that exists, but also how thatreflects a character.
And so I, I am curious aboutyour characters.
I mean, obviously these arelike.
Messy morally gray charactershere.
Why do you think friendshipslike that and, and characters
like that?
Just really add to a story likethis.
Charlene Wang (09:31):
I think that, you know.
With any morally gray character,I think that what really makes
'em tick and why readers aredrawn to them is that we
understand the goal they'retrying to achieve.
Whether that's love, securityyou know, like, you know,
financial security all of thosethings I think we can understand
(09:53):
and it's like, okay, I getthat's a goal, but what we
disagree with is the way theyget it, the means with which
they try to achieve that goal.
And so I think with my two bestfriends, faith is a protagonist,
her best friend Kayla.
You know, by the end of thenovel, it's very difficult to
say who is a villain, who is thehero, and I think be because
(10:14):
they both want the same things,which is love and security, but
they have very different ways ofgetting them.
Faith is mousey.
She's brainy.
She, you know, she getsvalidation from getting good
grades and getting into a goodschool.
And Kayla is, you know, she,she.
You know, really relies on hercharm and charisma.
And in the same way, that's thevery reason they clash in their
(10:36):
friendship, because theydisagree about how to get these
really fundamental things.
That's what makes I think a goodmorally great protagonist is
that, you know, we, we arerooting for them, but also when
we watch them make the decisionsthey make, it's like we, we are
like, why are you doing that?
It feels like a train wreck andthat's what makes it, the pages
like fly by.
David Gwyn (10:58):
Yeah, I, I love that.
So, so did these characters, didthey come out kind of fully
fleshed out as you.
Started this process or did ittake a few drafts for you to
nail them down?
Charlene Wang (11:07):
Many drafts.
So you know what's funny waswhen I started writing this
novel it was two perspectives.
So two POVs, faith and Kayla.
And then when I was querying,most of the agents I spoke with
told me, you know, I reallythink that you need to focus on
one.
Because there was a certainimbalance in the POV chapters
and I was super bummed when I,when I heard this, I was like,
(11:31):
oh, I had, I just have to gutthis whole book or this whole
half book.
What a waste of time.
But then when I decided that itwas really faith.
Story that she was aprotagonist.
I realized that all those pagesI spent delving into her
counterpart, Kayla, like werereally just wonderful exercises
(11:52):
in character.
And, and they really showed.
Quite precisely what herlimitations in POV are.
And so, you know, it's kind ofjust proof that no labor is lost
in writing.
Even when you think that youhave to junk half your novel, it
ends, you end up, it helps youin some way.
David Gwyn (12:12):
Yeah.
I, I love that.
I think a lot of people canrelate to that, the, especially
the pitching agents and, andhearing tough feedback.
But, but like you mentioned, youknow, you're.
Nothing's ever wasted and, andthe book is better for it.
And I think I, I relate to thata lot.
Like it takes me a while to finda character and so I'm glad to
hear that, that it, it's neverwasted
Charlene Wang (12:31):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
David Gwyn (12:32):
that,
Charlene Wang (12:32):
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I, every time I talkto a writer, I feel like the
story behind a novel has just asmany twists and turns.
It's always like the, the minorcharacter I thought was a minor
character, like in the end waslike the major character.
You know, I love hearing storiesabout that.
David Gwyn (12:50):
yeah.
I, I work with a, a group ofwriters in a, in a community.
And the one thing I always tell'em, I was like, because they,
you know, everyone, everyonewho's writing is looking for a
shortcut or looking for like the
Charlene Wang (13:00):
Right.
David Gwyn (13:00):
it.
And I, I tell'em all the time,like, there is no right way.
Like you just.
As long as you get to the endand the book is better every
time you edit.
Like that's it.
That's,
Charlene Wang (13:09):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (13:09):
thing.
The process doesn't matter howyou got there doesn't matter.
Irrelevant.
You just gotta get to the end.
Charlene Wang (13:14):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (13:15):
and so I think this is a great, another example for
like writers who are listeningto hear you talk and be like,
okay, I might, they might be inthat same position where they're
thinking like, I gotta junk awhole chapter
Charlene Wang (13:24):
Mm-hmm.
David Gwyn (13:25):
or a point of view.
And like, you're a great exampleof like, do it, like if you
think you have to do it, youprobably have to do it
Charlene Wang (13:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David Gwyn (13:32):
it and move on.
Charlene Wang (13:34):
If it feels painful and you're resistant,
you probably have to do it.
David Gwyn (13:38):
Yeah, exactly.
Cool.
So my last question for you isjust where, where can people
find you?
Where can people look you up?
Charlene Wang (13:44):
I am on Instagram at Charlene in October,
November.
I'll have some cool, fun eventsin New York and la and I'll be
posting about that on Instagram.
And finally, you can find me onmy website, charlene wang
author.com.
David Gwyn (14:00):
Perfect.
So Charlene, this was so muchfun.
I really enjoyed ourconversation.
Thanks for taking the time tochat.
Charlene Wang (14:05):
Thank you so much.
today we are joined by Charlene Wang to talk about,
(00:04):
I'll follow you a revenge storyset against the backdrop of an
elite college.
We're gonna talk about how shereinvented some novel tropes for
a thriller audience, what makescomplicated characters and
friendships so interesting onthe page, and how contemporary
themes can be used as tools ofsuspense.
Charlene, thanks so much forhanging out with me on the
Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast.
Charlene Wang (00:24):
Hello.
Excited to be here.
David Gwyn (00:26):
Yeah, I'm really excited to to chat with you.
So let's kind of dive right intoit.
Can you give us a, a littleoverview here for all of what
all follow you is about?
Charlene Wang (00:35):
Yeah, I'll follow you, is about two best friends
who collaborate on an Instagramaccount that turns them into
viral sensations, but when oneis accepted into an elite
college and the other followsher there, they're battle to
control the narrative.
Spirals into obsession, abettingtheir friendship and their
lives.
(00:55):
It's a campus novel, but it'salso a feminist revenge
thriller.
And how it gets there is halfthe fun.
David Gwyn (01:02):
Yeah.
It's, it's a great read.
Really, really fun to read.
Highly recommend people pick itup.
Tell me a little bit about the,the setting in the story.
Why set it on on this campus?
Charlene Wang (01:12):
So I've always loved campus novels.
The secret history you know, aseparate piece.
Those were always like myfavorite books growing up.
I also went to Dartmouth, whichis a very small insular college
up north.
And I think for thrillers it'sthe perfect setting because it's
closed, it's insular.
You have a bunch of young peoplefrom all different backgrounds
(01:34):
thrown in together.
And you know, there's usuallywith campus novels and outsider
who is try like striving reallyhard to fit in with this elite
inside crew.
And that always leads tovolatile results.
So it's just super fun to readand it was really fun to write.
David Gwyn (01:53):
Yeah.
I think that's, that's reallyinteresting that you bring that
up.
I, I often, as I, I, I do a lotof these podcasts.
I, I read a lot of thrillers andI love to hear authors talk
about where their story is setand'cause it always matters a
lot in thrillers and I feel likepeople.
Don't think enough about thatthat they kind of breeze over
it.
They're like, oh, I'll make themcamping because it's remote.
It's like, but maybe not.
Right.
And I think that this is such agreat example of how you used a
(02:17):
setting and it wasn't just likea random thriller, pick it off
the shelf type
Charlene Wang (02:22):
Right.
David Gwyn (02:22):
And I think that, I think that was really cool.
And so did you always know,like, was this always part of,
of how you're going to set thisnovel or did this come about as
you were kind of writing throughit?
Charlene Wang (02:32):
No, you know, truth, truth be told, when I was
22 and I just graduatedDartmouth, I told myself if I
ever write a novel, it will be acampus novel.
And you know, lo and behold,many, many, many years later.
David Gwyn (02:48):
You did it.
That's awesome.
So tell, tell me a little bitabout, about getting into this
setting here.
Like what did you have to do toreally, because I feel like you
nailed the setting, so like whatdid you have to do to really get
yourself back into that?
That kind of, that kind of vibe.
Charlene Wang (03:01):
That's a good question.
One way was, this is a sub genrethat is, has a huge tradition
behind it.
So I love the Secret History andI've read that book so many
times.
And one of the core assumptionsthat I realized about the secret
history was that, you know, it'sreally about this blank slate
(03:21):
protagonist who arrives oncampus and it just.
Seems magically he, the pastrecedes in the rear view mirror
and he's able to kind of, youknow, infiltrate this new group
of friends that he's, you know,really, you know, he finds
really dazzling.
And I kind of wanted to subvertthat with this book because, you
(03:45):
know, when I was, when I went tocollege, I found that the past
was not so easy to let go of.
And, you know, I wanted to showmy protagonist faith.
She has this really messyfriendship that really shaped
her.
And when she gets to campus, youknow, she, she's still in the
shadow of that.
And it really affects the wayshe, you know thinks about the
(04:05):
world, the way she patterns herinteractions with other people
that she meets on campus.
And so I really wanted to showthat, you know, this isn't a
blank slate protagonist.
This is someone who quiteliterally the past.
Comes knocking on her door inthe form of her best friend
Kayla, who shows up at her dormone night, mid-semester.
And so it, that was really the,the, the engine that, that I,
(04:30):
you know, really capture myimagination with this book.
And yeah.
And that's, that's one of themany, many fun, fun tropes of
this genre.
I mean, I could talk foreverabout it.
David Gwyn (04:42):
good.
Well,
Charlene Wang (04:43):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (04:43):
you another question about it.
So, so I'm glad,'cause I, Ithink this was really
interesting too.
I, I think when, and I'm gonnatalk a little bit more about
this.
When we talk about themes, Ifeel like thrillers I feel like
thrillers sometimes overlook thedeeper aspects of storytelling
that they, you know, as, aswriters we're focused more on
pacing and on character and on,like, are we, are we hooking the
(05:04):
reader?
Yes, all those things, but alsolike, is there something deeper?
And I think, you know,mentioning the secret history,
I, you know, I, as you kind ofwere talking about that, I could
see that in your writing.
And that's, that's a novel thathas like a lot of deeper
undertones to it as well.
So, so my question as I kind ofroundabout get to it.
Is one of the many things I, Ithought you did a great job of
(05:25):
here was infusing those kind ofnew elements while keeping the
tropes that readers love.
And you mentioned that kindalike the subverting and, and
maintaining some, some parts of,of these types of stories.
So my question is just like, howdid you decide what to retain,
what to subvert, what to add tothis, to this sub genre that
already exists?
Charlene Wang (05:44):
Yeah.
So, you know, I think part of itis it's always anchored in my
own personal experience.
And, you know.
For example, one of the, thetropes is the compelling
professor figure that the, theprotagonist meets and is, you
know, just really there's aseductive pull and, you know,
(06:07):
the pursuit of knowledge is likea common theme in these dark
academia novels.
So, you know, I want, I knew Iwanted a professor but I felt
like, you know, with acontemporary campus novel.
It's difficult to put aside thepower imbalances with that
relationship.
And so, and I knew that this.
This novel would be set post MeToo.
(06:28):
And so that kind of, that kindof made me, that opened the book
for me.
In that, you know, I think thatwithout giving away too much,
this relationship that she haswith her art conservation
professor is not all in the IvyLeague tower talking about art
and conservation.
It, it also has a lot ofproblematic power dynamics.
(06:51):
And I think that was reallyfitting with, you know, the
world we live in today.
David Gwyn (06:55):
Yeah.
I, I think that makes a lot ofsense and, and kind of leaned
right, right into the next parthere where I wanted to talk a
little bit about themes.
As I mentioned, that's one placewhere I think the thriller genre
maybe would, maybe it just getsa bad rep.
But I feel like a lot ofthriller writers, a lot of
popular thriller writers, likepumping out novels that are,
like I mentioned, the pacing'sgreat,
Charlene Wang (07:13):
Hmm.
David Gwyn (07:14):
is great, but maybe they're not doing the, the kind
of deeper thematic work.
And so I'm, I'm wondering aboutyour work weaving in modern
culture like this kind oftraditional suspense framework.
So where did that come from anddid you find it difficult at
times to do that?
Charlene Wang (07:29):
Very.
So you know, this is a bookabout influencers, social media,
and I think that social media inparticular is really tricky to
get on the page.
When you use internet language,it has the risk of sounding
dated,
David Gwyn (07:43):
Mm-hmm.
Charlene Wang (07:44):
and.
I think that for a long time Istruggled with that.
Many, many drafts had to bethrown into the trash before I
got the balance right.
But I think the trick for me waswhen I took a step back and I
realized that, you know, socialmedia is essentially a mirror to
a character, psyche.
It can also be a mask and it canbe a really great engine to use
(08:08):
to, you know, see like how dothey disguise themselves.
How do they, you know, affectother people's lives?
How do they like try to affecttheir own lives through this
parallel social media identity?
And it's, I think it's.
Difficult to get right in thesame way that, you know, they
sometimes say music is hard toget right on the page.
(08:31):
Like you can never quite capturethe magic of music.
And I think social media too,like that, feeling that
claustrophobia is really hard.
But I try to focus on, you know,like at any given point, if it's
being used as a, as a plot, likewhat is the emotional reaction
to that?
And and I think that helped mereally crystallize it.
David Gwyn (08:53):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And I think it is a challengethat, that a lot of writers.
Have I've been seeing more andmore people u utilizing social
media, I think, because it's,it's, you know, the reality of
the world we live in.
If you wanna set a contemporarystory, it's hard to avoid, you
know, the internet
Charlene Wang (09:07):
Right.
David Gwyn (09:08):
all the other things.
And, and so I, I think that'sreally interesting and I, I love
the way you're thinking about itas like not just a plot device
that exists, but also how thatreflects a character.
And so I, I am curious aboutyour characters.
I mean, obviously these arelike.
Messy morally gray charactershere.
Why do you think friendshipslike that and, and characters
like that?
Just really add to a story likethis.
Charlene Wang (09:31):
I think that, you know.
With any morally gray character,I think that what really makes
'em tick and why readers aredrawn to them is that we
understand the goal they'retrying to achieve.
Whether that's love, securityyou know, like, you know,
financial security all of thosethings I think we can understand
(09:53):
and it's like, okay, I getthat's a goal, but what we
disagree with is the way theyget it, the means with which
they try to achieve that goal.
And so I think with my two bestfriends, faith is a protagonist,
her best friend Kayla.
You know, by the end of thenovel, it's very difficult to
say who is a villain, who is thehero, and I think be because
(10:14):
they both want the same things,which is love and security, but
they have very different ways ofgetting them.
Faith is mousey.
She's brainy.
She, you know, she getsvalidation from getting good
grades and getting into a goodschool.
And Kayla is, you know, she,she.
You know, really relies on hercharm and charisma.
And in the same way, that's thevery reason they clash in their
(10:36):
friendship, because theydisagree about how to get these
really fundamental things.
That's what makes I think a goodmorally great protagonist is
that, you know, we, we arerooting for them, but also when
we watch them make the decisionsthey make, it's like we, we are
like, why are you doing that?
It feels like a train wreck andthat's what makes it, the pages
like fly by.
David Gwyn (10:58):
Yeah, I, I love that.
So, so did these characters, didthey come out kind of fully
fleshed out as you.
Started this process or did ittake a few drafts for you to
nail them down?
Charlene Wang (11:07):
Many drafts.
So you know what's funny waswhen I started writing this
novel it was two perspectives.
So two POVs, faith and Kayla.
And then when I was querying,most of the agents I spoke with
told me, you know, I reallythink that you need to focus on
one.
Because there was a certainimbalance in the POV chapters
and I was super bummed when I,when I heard this, I was like,
(11:31):
oh, I had, I just have to gutthis whole book or this whole
half book.
What a waste of time.
But then when I decided that itwas really faith.
Story that she was aprotagonist.
I realized that all those pagesI spent delving into her
counterpart, Kayla, like werereally just wonderful exercises
(11:52):
in character.
And, and they really showed.
Quite precisely what herlimitations in POV are.
And so, you know, it's kind ofjust proof that no labor is lost
in writing.
Even when you think that youhave to junk half your novel, it
ends, you end up, it helps youin some way.
David Gwyn (12:12):
Yeah.
I, I love that.
I think a lot of people canrelate to that, the, especially
the pitching agents and, andhearing tough feedback.
But, but like you mentioned, youknow, you're.
Nothing's ever wasted and, andthe book is better for it.
And I think I, I relate to thata lot.
Like it takes me a while to finda character and so I'm glad to
hear that, that it, it's neverwasted
Charlene Wang (12:31):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
David Gwyn (12:32):
that,
Charlene Wang (12:32):
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I, every time I talkto a writer, I feel like the
story behind a novel has just asmany twists and turns.
It's always like the, the minorcharacter I thought was a minor
character, like in the end waslike the major character.
You know, I love hearing storiesabout that.
David Gwyn (12:50):
yeah.
I, I work with a, a group ofwriters in a, in a community.
And the one thing I always tell'em, I was like, because they,
you know, everyone, everyonewho's writing is looking for a
shortcut or looking for like the
Charlene Wang (13:00):
Right.
David Gwyn (13:00):
it.
And I, I tell'em all the time,like, there is no right way.
Like you just.
As long as you get to the endand the book is better every
time you edit.
Like that's it.
That's,
Charlene Wang (13:09):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (13:09):
thing.
The process doesn't matter howyou got there doesn't matter.
Irrelevant.
You just gotta get to the end.
Charlene Wang (13:14):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (13:15):
and so I think this is a great, another example for
like writers who are listeningto hear you talk and be like,
okay, I might, they might be inthat same position where they're
thinking like, I gotta junk awhole chapter
Charlene Wang (13:24):
Mm-hmm.
David Gwyn (13:25):
or a point of view.
And like, you're a great exampleof like, do it, like if you
think you have to do it, youprobably have to do it
Charlene Wang (13:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David Gwyn (13:32):
it and move on.
Charlene Wang (13:34):
If it feels painful and you're resistant,
you probably have to do it.
David Gwyn (13:38):
Yeah, exactly.
Cool.
So my last question for you isjust where, where can people
find you?
Where can people look you up?
Charlene Wang (13:44):
I am on Instagram at Charlene in October,
November.
I'll have some cool, fun eventsin New York and la and I'll be
posting about that on Instagram.
And finally, you can find me onmy website, charlene wang
author.com.
David Gwyn (14:00):
Perfect.
So Charlene, this was so muchfun.
I really enjoyed ourconversation.
Thanks for taking the time tochat.
Charlene Wang (14:05):
Thank you so much.
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