Find out more about Eloise here.
In this interview, I talk to author Eloise Corvo about her debut novel OFF THE BEATEN PATH. Eloise reveals her practical three-part framework for crafting effective red herrings, which is a vital skill for any thriller, mystery, suspense, or crime fiction writer.
You’ll discover essential writing tips for balancing misdirection with reader satisfaction and gain insider insights into publishing options beyond traditional routes.
Whether you're drafting your first mystery or refining your tenth thriller, Eloise's practical advice on how to write compelling suspense will transform your approach to planting clues and creating satisfying twists.
This episode packed with actionable writing techniques is perfect for mystery authors looking to elevate their craft and engage readers from page one to the final reveal.
What Listeners Will Learn
- The Three-Element Formula for Red Herrings
- Mystery Structure and Pacing
- Publishing Journey Insights
Get the list of 125+ Literary Agents who rep Thriller, Mystery, Suspense, and Crime Fiction
Study the Opening Paragraphs of the Top Authors Writing Thrillers Right Now
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eloise Corvo (00:00):
So to any mystery, you really need three things.
(00:03):
You need the motive, the means,like how they did it, and the
opportunity.
David Gwyn (00:10):
Welcome to the Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast.
Today I'm really excited tobring you a conversation with
Eloise Corvo, whose debutmystery novel off the Beaten
Path is out now.
I'm David Gwyn, a writernavigating the world of
traditional publishing duringthe season of the Thriller 1 0 1
podcast.
We're gonna continue our focuson building the skills necessary
to write the kinds of thrillersthat land you and agent and
readers.
(00:30):
During this season, I'll besharing some of my own insights
while also talking to agents,authors, and other publishing
professionals about the best wayto write a novel.
If you want the Expert Secrets,thriller 1 0 1 is where you're
gonna find them.
Last time on the podcast, Italked to Steven Spotswood.
He talked about a really coolediting mindset and process.
Stephen Spotswood (00:46):
from a pure nuts and bolts craft perspective
the first draft, I try and getthe plot working.
The general bones of things are,are elegantly shaped.
Or at least have the, thepotential for elegance.
David Gwyn (00:58):
If you wanna listen to that episode, it's linked in
the description.
Also, Eloise mentions a previousepisode where literary agent cl
Geisler, reviewed the openingpages of the story that
eventually got published here asOff the Beaten Path, for a
series we were doing on Thriller1 0 1, I've linked that in the
description as well.
So if you wanna check that out,you can find that easily down in
(01:19):
the description.
If you've ever struggled withcreating compelling red herrings
in your story, those false leadsthat keep readers guessing
without making them feelcheated, then this episode is
absolutely essential.
Eloise breaks down exactly howshe crafts her red herrings that
mislead without frustratingreaders she shares a really
practical three elementframework that you can implement
(01:41):
immediately in your own writing.
You'll also learn about why somered herrings fall flat while
others keep readers turningpages.
And you'll get an insider'sperspective on navigating
publishing options.
This episode contains a ton ofactual advice that could really,
really benefit you and how youplot and write your next story.
So grab a notebook and let's getto it.
(02:04):
Eloise, thanks so much for beingon the Thriller 101 podcast.
Eloise Corvo (02:07):
Yeah, thanks for having me, David.
So see you.
Yep.
David Gwyn (02:11):
been kind of been in each other's orbit for a while
now.
You wrote, wrote some articlesfor Thriller 101.
We chatted a bunch via email.
So it's really cool when thiskind of happens where now you've
got a book coming out and we getto chat about it, so I'm so glad
we were able to set this up andyou're able to be here.
Eloise Corvo (02:26):
Absolutely, yeah.
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to talk about it.
David Gwyn (02:29):
Yeah, good.
So let's, let's get right to it.
So tell us a little bit aboutOff the Beaten Path.
Yeah.
Eloise Corvo (02:34):
Yeah, well, this actually might not be the first
time your listeners have heardof it about Off the Beaten Path.
It was featured in an episode,gosh, a year and a half ago now
with Carlene Geisler, agent.
You read my first couple pagesand critiqued it, which is
really helpful.
So, since then we've gotten inthree book deal with an indie
(02:55):
publisher, which is reallyexciting.
And Yeah, it's set to come outMarch 4th.
Cozy Mystery, set up here whereI live in northern Michigan.
David Gwyn (03:03):
It is really interesting.
I wonder if, if people remember,but also like.
It's so, I think the timeline'sso important here, right?
Like, I feel like writers,especially newer writers, they
often get into this like, okay,I'll write a book, and then
like, it'll be published nextyear, and it's like, no.
It's just, it's never gonnahappen.
Like, here you were with like areally solid manuscript that
got, that got picked by an agentbecause she really liked it.
(03:25):
And that was a year and a halfago.
And here we are sitting andyou're still what a month and a
half, you know, as, as we'rerecording this, you know,
people, when they're listeningto this, the book will be out,
but you're still a month and ahalf away from publication.
So it's just, it publishing issuch a long process.
It really is something that justtakes so long.
But now here you are three bookdeal on the other end.
What did it feel like to getthat phone call and sign that
(03:47):
deal?
Eloise Corvo (03:48):
oh my gosh, so great.
I was in a fantastic position ofhaving a handful of publishers
interested, of indie publishers.
I queried for a while.
Just, I know you have a lot ofquerying writers in your
audience.
So I queried for about sixmonths, which I know is not long
in the querying timeline butjust sort of got a little beat
(04:08):
up from it, which I think we alldo, and I had a lot of success.
I got really close with Carlene.
She actually requested the fulltwice and just couldn't see a
vision for like final edits so Ikind of took a step back and was
like, well, I'll do it.
Where do people actually buyCozy Mysteries?
Where are they selling?
And thought the indie worldactually might be a really good
fit for this.
So I'm actually going to jumpinto querying again with my next
(04:31):
manuscript
David Gwyn (04:32):
Wow.
Yeah, it's it is, I think toonowadays there's so many ways to
publish and there's so manylike, quality ways to publish
where you have people backingyou and that, that feeling, I
think a lot of people feel likethere's that one traditional
route.
But there really are a, avariety of ways to get, get a
book published.
And so I think that was smart.
I think that's a good way, andI'm glad people are listening to
(04:53):
this and listening to you talkabout how.
you know, deciding what wasright for this book.
And now you can make a differentdecision.
Like it's not a lifetime careerchoice.
Like if you want, and then youwant to go back and do something
different, you can, which Ithink is great.
Eloise Corvo (05:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
David Gwyn (05:08):
Cool.
So tell us a little bit aboutoff the beaten path.
So people who are listening, geta sense of what the story is
about.
Eloise Corvo (05:15):
Yeah, so I would say it's like Clue meets Parks
and Recreation, the TV show,right?
So it's Cozy Mystery.
It's kind of lighthearted andsilly.
You know, it's not gonna changethe world, but hopefully offer a
little bit of escapism for thosethat are looking for it.
Set in the wilds of a huge parkup here in northern Michigan.
(05:35):
That's along the Lake Michigancoastline.
We're talking like 40 squaremiles.
Like, big park.
The park ranger is our maincharacter.
Her name is Maudie Lorso.
She's getting off of a hardbreakup with her long term
boyfriend.
Kind of moved up here from thesuburbs of Detroit.
So, like, new rural lifestyle.
(05:56):
loving it but is having some jobsecurity issues with like
funding cuts, budget cuts, whichis facing our country in real
life.
She finds the body of a deadtourist in her park right in a
very precarious moment for herin terms of her job.
And so she's really forced tofigure out what happened in
(06:17):
order to kind of keep thislittle lifestyle that she's
really consciously built forherself.
So follows that little mystery.
David Gwyn (06:24):
Yeah, it is.
It's such a, I feel like cozymysteries are having a great
moment.
They're finding a lot of readersand a lot of readers are
gravitating towards.
Cozy Mysteries, and I, I thinkit is such a fun read and, and
was such a, such a reallyenjoyable story.
And so, now this is a three bookdeal, is this, is this, are all
three books the same maincharacter, or is it, how is
(06:45):
that, is it going to be aseries?
Eloise Corvo (06:47):
It is a series, yes, we follow Maudie through
the trilogy and they areconnected, so a lot of cozies
are just, you know, separatestories, same character, maybe
with some minimal overlap.
I would say this is a littleabnormal in that cozy world in
that there are individualmurders, which is expected,
right?
Very trope y required almost ofthe genre, but there is a much
(07:11):
larger overarching plot thatdoes continue through the three.
So, yeah, I'm really excited.
David Gwyn (07:17):
Nice.
And where are you on thoseprojects?
Are those also, they're done andready to go, or where, are you
Eloise Corvo (07:22):
my gosh, I wish.
No, the second is drafted.
I'm editing it right now, stillin like developmental edit
stages.
And I plan to draft the thirdthis summer.
So, trying to stay like roughlya year ahead of time.
Because you're right, it takes awhile, right, to get a really
(07:42):
polished, published book.
Yeah.
David Gwyn (07:45):
true.
All right, cool.
So I really want to dig in hereon one thing that I thought, I
thought you did a lot well withthis book, but one of the things
that I think it's true of the,of the the genre, which is the,
the trope of the red herring.
And I think you did such a nicejob here of kind of balancing.
Red herrings in a way that madeit feel like you know, as a
reader, I was like misled, butnot cheated.
(08:06):
I wasn't tricked.
Like it was an enjoyable, like,Ooh, who is it?
Kind of feel.
And so I'd love to hear a littlebit about how you think about
red herrings and how you developthem.
So do you plan them out from thestart or is this something that
kind of pops up organically asyou're writing?
Eloise Corvo (08:22):
You know, it's been different book to book,
which I find interesting, but Ido put conscious thought into
them because I think it's reallyeasy to kind of get cheap,
either not satisfying or liketricks that are not fun to read,
right?
Like the last thing I want as amystery reader is to be like,
(08:43):
what the heck?
This guy didn't even show upuntil the end.
You know what I mean?
Like you, you want to have thatsatisfying.
like, aha moment, but also youdon't want that too early on in
the story.
So I, there's, there honestly islike some formulas that are
around that I, I personallydon't subscribe to, but I think
are really good as inspirationwhere you do want at least three
(09:04):
viable motives floating aroundfor a lot of the story.
I think planting clues, not justto reveal the murderer, but also
to show who couldn't have doneit is just as important and
often more subtle.
So that is a really great way.
It's almost like a reverse clue,right?
(09:25):
Of like this person didn't haveaccess or they were, you know,
they were somewhere else or weknew that whatever it is, but
like to prevent somebody fromhaving done the crime are often
really good ways to plant cluesthat are satisfying, but maybe
not super clear.
evident right away.
But the book that I justfinished drafting that is not a
(09:46):
part of the series.
I didn't know who did it untilmaybe like chapter six or seven
so that I set up a handful ofreally interesting hooks that I
then eliminated later on.
So yeah, it just kind of changesstory to story but worth worth
conscious thought for sure.
David Gwyn (10:04):
Yeah.
So that's so fun.
So one of the things I wasthinking about, you know, and
we'll talk about it here, whichis, you know, some of your clues
that you're dripping in are realclues that lead to who did it.
And then some are clues thatultimately dead end somewhere
along the way.
Right.
And that's kind of like how thered herring works.
And so are you, are you, itsounds like at least in the book
(10:26):
that you have now, like, thoseclues that led to the different
people, like, probably startedoff as all real clues, like, you
don't know necessarily whichone's gonna be real clues and
which one's gonna be redherring, is that, is that kind
of how that worked For you?
Eloise Corvo (10:39):
this latest book, that's exactly what happened,
which is really fun to write.
It, it's requiring a muchheavier editing hand on the back
end, obviously.
So it was a little more, like,pantsy, so to speak, than I
normally do.
But it was a really fun way towrite a mystery.
And I think if someone's, like,trying to just explore that
genre and just see what happens,that's a fun way to do it.
David Gwyn (11:00):
that's cool.
And so when you're going back,whether you, whether it's
editing the one you're on now orediting the ones coming out when
you're reading and you'rethinking about your red
herrings, do you have any checksin your head where you're like,
okay, that's, you know, it'sright on that edge of there, it
goes on long enough, or it's, itseems, they seem guilty enough,
but not so guilty that like areader knows that they did it.
(11:20):
Like.
Do you think about that and howdo you kind of navigate those
conversations in your own headwhile you're drafting and
editing?
Eloise Corvo (11:27):
That's a really cool question.
Again, each story sort of hasits own necessities, but there
are definitely, like, cycles toa cozy mystery that you can plot
out.
And you can essentially take anycozy off the shelf and it'll
follow similar, you know, thesecycles of interviews.
So basically you have three orfour legit suspects, right?
(11:52):
Many of which are, most of whichare red herrings and you
eventually cycle through theseinteractions with your main
character and those other, thecast of characters that are
suspects and you sort ofeliminate them as you go along.
So it creates this really nicebalance where you're narrowing.
You're like starting to hone in,but you never want to go, at
(12:15):
least I personally, never wantto go into like the climax of
the book with the murdereralready being revealed.
The main character probablyknows who it is, but the reader
doesn't yet.
There's two folks left.
So you narrow it down, you gothrough this like iterative
process, and I think it's okayto let one or two linger on as
(12:36):
long as you can, essentially.
Yeah,
David Gwyn (12:40):
I feel like as readers, you know, you're you
have your own Guesses about whodid it and it's sometimes just
as fun to be wrong as it is tobe right It's like just as
satisfying to feel like Imentioned, you know You're
misled, but not tricked.
You're not cheated.
It's just that you were wrong.
Like, you guessed, and youguessed wrong, and I think that
that's a really fun part of themystery genre in general which
(13:03):
just makes them such fun reads.
And so, I have, I run thiscommunity for writers the
Storyteller Society, and there'sa, there's a writer in there
who's drafting right now, andshe wants to, input red
herrings.
And she's just like, she's like,yeah, but I keep struggling with
like where exactly to, like,who's a red?
And she's like, I know who didit.
So like, how do I build thatout?
(13:24):
Do you have any suggestions forlike retroactively putting in
red herrings?
Like let's say you have yourstory written and you get to the
end and you're like, Ooh, I onlyhave, you know, one red herring.
And it's, it's kind of capped atthis moment, but it would be
beneficial.
Like you're mentioning, you'dlike to have two going into, the
climax.
Any suggestions for how to kindof build in red herrings through
(13:44):
the editing process?
Eloise Corvo (13:46):
yeah, for sure.
So to any mystery, you reallyneed three things.
You need the motive, the means,like how they did it, and the
opportunity.
So the time, like timelinelining up, right?
And so in order to plant redherrings, all you need to do is
to present those three thingswith other characters.
(14:10):
but just not all three for thesame character.
So any red herring, in order tobe satisfying, in my opinion,
needs to only have one or two ofthose things.
If you have all three, just likethe legitimate murderer or
culprit or whatever sort ofmystery you're telling, that's
also not satisfying to thereader.
(14:31):
Because then at the end, they'relike, well, If I go back and
pick apart all these clues, itis still possible for this
person to have done it, and thatdoesn't feel like a great
satisfying, like, closure to astory.
There really should only be theone person who is possible to
have committed the crime.
So you just gotta seed thoseother things in little
(14:52):
combinations and make sure thatthat third, whatever it might
be, the opportunity or themotive, isn't strong, right?
Not presented.
So,
David Gwyn (15:00):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that's such a great wayof thinking about it.
And it makes it so manageable.
I feel like the thinking aboutit that way, as opposed to
thinking I have to go back andrestructure the whole plot.
It's like, yeah, maybe, maybe,but maybe you just really need
to present one or two of thesethings.
And it's enough for, you know,clever readers as mystery
readers are, you know, themystery thriller, this, this
genre of readers are verycareful readers because they
(15:23):
know that the author is in someways, you know, trying to
mislead them or, or you know,present this story in a way that
makes it tricky to figure out.
So I think that's, that's suchvaluable information.
advice for people.
So thanks so much for sharing.
And my last question for you isjust where can people find you?
Where can people look you up?
Eloise Corvo (15:40):
Yeah, so I am on X a little bit, which I know is
where we met, but in recentchanges I'm less on there, but
that's at Eloise Corvo.
Same with Instagram and TikTok,is at author underscore.
Eloise Corvo.
So those are probably the bestways to get at me.
(16:01):
My website is just eloisecorvo.
com.
Also happy to like collaborate,drop a line.
The book will be available onAmazon, barnesandnoble.
com, and hopefully a bunch ofindie stores around the country.
So keep an eye out.
David Gwyn (16:14):
Yeah, super cool.
So I get to be kind of the firstone because we're, I mean we're
recording this now and it won'tbe out for a couple weeks
obviously, but to saycongratulations, so congrats.
Cause if you're listening tothis her Eloise Corvo's book is
out off the beaten path.
Definitely go pick pick this oneup, check it out.
Really fun read, if you'relistening to this and you're
struggling with red herrings,what a great example of a book
(16:37):
to pick up and learn how to dored herring.
So Eloise, this was so much fun.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to chat.
Eloise Corvo (16:42):
Always, David.
Thanks so much.
David Gwyn (16:44):
Okay, and that's it.
So what I love about Eloise'sapproach to red herrings is how
she boils it down in such aclear, actionable formula.
Focusing on those like threeessential elements of Motive,
means opportunity.
As she shared, the key is reallyensuring that your red herring
characters have one or two ofthese elements, but never all
three.
I found these insights reallyvaluable because it gave me a
(17:06):
framework for creating thismisdirection without resorting
to like those cheap tricks thatreaders can always see coming
and they and they really don'tenjoy.
So today's challenge for you isfor your manuscript, analyze the
suspects that you have.
Use Eloise's framework.
Identify which characters havewhich elements.
Motive, means opportunity.
(17:27):
It's a simple exercise, but itcan really dramatically improve
how you structure the suspicionthat your readers have in your
stories.
Remember, crafting satisfyingmysteries isn't about tricking
readers.
It's about giving them a puzzlethey can solve alongside your
protagonist with just the rightbalance of challenge and
satisfaction.
I hope you enjoyed this adviceas much as I did, and I'll see
(17:48):
you next week.
So to any mystery, you really need three things.
(00:03):
You need the motive, the means,like how they did it, and the
opportunity.
David Gwyn (00:10):
Welcome to the Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast.
Today I'm really excited tobring you a conversation with
Eloise Corvo, whose debutmystery novel off the Beaten
Path is out now.
I'm David Gwyn, a writernavigating the world of
traditional publishing duringthe season of the Thriller 1 0 1
podcast.
We're gonna continue our focuson building the skills necessary
to write the kinds of thrillersthat land you and agent and
readers.
(00:30):
During this season, I'll besharing some of my own insights
while also talking to agents,authors, and other publishing
professionals about the best wayto write a novel.
If you want the Expert Secrets,thriller 1 0 1 is where you're
gonna find them.
Last time on the podcast, Italked to Steven Spotswood.
He talked about a really coolediting mindset and process.
Stephen Spotswood (00:46):
from a pure nuts and bolts craft perspective
the first draft, I try and getthe plot working.
The general bones of things are,are elegantly shaped.
Or at least have the, thepotential for elegance.
David Gwyn (00:58):
If you wanna listen to that episode, it's linked in
the description.
Also, Eloise mentions a previousepisode where literary agent cl
Geisler, reviewed the openingpages of the story that
eventually got published here asOff the Beaten Path, for a
series we were doing on Thriller1 0 1, I've linked that in the
description as well.
So if you wanna check that out,you can find that easily down in
(01:19):
the description.
If you've ever struggled withcreating compelling red herrings
in your story, those false leadsthat keep readers guessing
without making them feelcheated, then this episode is
absolutely essential.
Eloise breaks down exactly howshe crafts her red herrings that
mislead without frustratingreaders she shares a really
practical three elementframework that you can implement
(01:41):
immediately in your own writing.
You'll also learn about why somered herrings fall flat while
others keep readers turningpages.
And you'll get an insider'sperspective on navigating
publishing options.
This episode contains a ton ofactual advice that could really,
really benefit you and how youplot and write your next story.
So grab a notebook and let's getto it.
(02:04):
Eloise, thanks so much for beingon the Thriller 101 podcast.
Eloise Corvo (02:07):
Yeah, thanks for having me, David.
So see you.
Yep.
David Gwyn (02:11):
been kind of been in each other's orbit for a while
now.
You wrote, wrote some articlesfor Thriller 101.
We chatted a bunch via email.
So it's really cool when thiskind of happens where now you've
got a book coming out and we getto chat about it, so I'm so glad
we were able to set this up andyou're able to be here.
Eloise Corvo (02:26):
Absolutely, yeah.
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to talk about it.
David Gwyn (02:29):
Yeah, good.
So let's, let's get right to it.
So tell us a little bit aboutOff the Beaten Path.
Yeah.
Eloise Corvo (02:34):
Yeah, well, this actually might not be the first
time your listeners have heardof it about Off the Beaten Path.
It was featured in an episode,gosh, a year and a half ago now
with Carlene Geisler, agent.
You read my first couple pagesand critiqued it, which is
really helpful.
So, since then we've gotten inthree book deal with an indie
(02:55):
publisher, which is reallyexciting.
And Yeah, it's set to come outMarch 4th.
Cozy Mystery, set up here whereI live in northern Michigan.
David Gwyn (03:03):
It is really interesting.
I wonder if, if people remember,but also like.
It's so, I think the timeline'sso important here, right?
Like, I feel like writers,especially newer writers, they
often get into this like, okay,I'll write a book, and then
like, it'll be published nextyear, and it's like, no.
It's just, it's never gonnahappen.
Like, here you were with like areally solid manuscript that
got, that got picked by an agentbecause she really liked it.
(03:25):
And that was a year and a halfago.
And here we are sitting andyou're still what a month and a
half, you know, as, as we'rerecording this, you know,
people, when they're listeningto this, the book will be out,
but you're still a month and ahalf away from publication.
So it's just, it publishing issuch a long process.
It really is something that justtakes so long.
But now here you are three bookdeal on the other end.
What did it feel like to getthat phone call and sign that
(03:47):
deal?
Eloise Corvo (03:48):
oh my gosh, so great.
I was in a fantastic position ofhaving a handful of publishers
interested, of indie publishers.
I queried for a while.
Just, I know you have a lot ofquerying writers in your
audience.
So I queried for about sixmonths, which I know is not long
in the querying timeline butjust sort of got a little beat
(04:08):
up from it, which I think we alldo, and I had a lot of success.
I got really close with Carlene.
She actually requested the fulltwice and just couldn't see a
vision for like final edits so Ikind of took a step back and was
like, well, I'll do it.
Where do people actually buyCozy Mysteries?
Where are they selling?
And thought the indie worldactually might be a really good
fit for this.
So I'm actually going to jumpinto querying again with my next
(04:31):
manuscript
David Gwyn (04:32):
Wow.
Yeah, it's it is, I think toonowadays there's so many ways to
publish and there's so manylike, quality ways to publish
where you have people backingyou and that, that feeling, I
think a lot of people feel likethere's that one traditional
route.
But there really are a, avariety of ways to get, get a
book published.
And so I think that was smart.
I think that's a good way, andI'm glad people are listening to
(04:53):
this and listening to you talkabout how.
you know, deciding what wasright for this book.
And now you can make a differentdecision.
Like it's not a lifetime careerchoice.
Like if you want, and then youwant to go back and do something
different, you can, which Ithink is great.
Eloise Corvo (05:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
David Gwyn (05:08):
Cool.
So tell us a little bit aboutoff the beaten path.
So people who are listening, geta sense of what the story is
about.
Eloise Corvo (05:15):
Yeah, so I would say it's like Clue meets Parks
and Recreation, the TV show,right?
So it's Cozy Mystery.
It's kind of lighthearted andsilly.
You know, it's not gonna changethe world, but hopefully offer a
little bit of escapism for thosethat are looking for it.
Set in the wilds of a huge parkup here in northern Michigan.
(05:35):
That's along the Lake Michigancoastline.
We're talking like 40 squaremiles.
Like, big park.
The park ranger is our maincharacter.
Her name is Maudie Lorso.
She's getting off of a hardbreakup with her long term
boyfriend.
Kind of moved up here from thesuburbs of Detroit.
So, like, new rural lifestyle.
(05:56):
loving it but is having some jobsecurity issues with like
funding cuts, budget cuts, whichis facing our country in real
life.
She finds the body of a deadtourist in her park right in a
very precarious moment for herin terms of her job.
And so she's really forced tofigure out what happened in
(06:17):
order to kind of keep thislittle lifestyle that she's
really consciously built forherself.
So follows that little mystery.
David Gwyn (06:24):
Yeah, it is.
It's such a, I feel like cozymysteries are having a great
moment.
They're finding a lot of readersand a lot of readers are
gravitating towards.
Cozy Mysteries, and I, I thinkit is such a fun read and, and
was such a, such a reallyenjoyable story.
And so, now this is a three bookdeal, is this, is this, are all
three books the same maincharacter, or is it, how is
(06:45):
that, is it going to be aseries?
Eloise Corvo (06:47):
It is a series, yes, we follow Maudie through
the trilogy and they areconnected, so a lot of cozies
are just, you know, separatestories, same character, maybe
with some minimal overlap.
I would say this is a littleabnormal in that cozy world in
that there are individualmurders, which is expected,
right?
Very trope y required almost ofthe genre, but there is a much
(07:11):
larger overarching plot thatdoes continue through the three.
So, yeah, I'm really excited.
David Gwyn (07:17):
Nice.
And where are you on thoseprojects?
Are those also, they're done andready to go, or where, are you
Eloise Corvo (07:22):
my gosh, I wish.
No, the second is drafted.
I'm editing it right now, stillin like developmental edit
stages.
And I plan to draft the thirdthis summer.
So, trying to stay like roughlya year ahead of time.
Because you're right, it takes awhile, right, to get a really
(07:42):
polished, published book.
Yeah.
David Gwyn (07:45):
true.
All right, cool.
So I really want to dig in hereon one thing that I thought, I
thought you did a lot well withthis book, but one of the things
that I think it's true of the,of the the genre, which is the,
the trope of the red herring.
And I think you did such a nicejob here of kind of balancing.
Red herrings in a way that madeit feel like you know, as a
reader, I was like misled, butnot cheated.
(08:06):
I wasn't tricked.
Like it was an enjoyable, like,Ooh, who is it?
Kind of feel.
And so I'd love to hear a littlebit about how you think about
red herrings and how you developthem.
So do you plan them out from thestart or is this something that
kind of pops up organically asyou're writing?
Eloise Corvo (08:22):
You know, it's been different book to book,
which I find interesting, but Ido put conscious thought into
them because I think it's reallyeasy to kind of get cheap,
either not satisfying or liketricks that are not fun to read,
right?
Like the last thing I want as amystery reader is to be like,
(08:43):
what the heck?
This guy didn't even show upuntil the end.
You know what I mean?
Like you, you want to have thatsatisfying.
like, aha moment, but also youdon't want that too early on in
the story.
So I, there's, there honestly islike some formulas that are
around that I, I personallydon't subscribe to, but I think
are really good as inspirationwhere you do want at least three
(09:04):
viable motives floating aroundfor a lot of the story.
I think planting clues, not justto reveal the murderer, but also
to show who couldn't have doneit is just as important and
often more subtle.
So that is a really great way.
It's almost like a reverse clue,right?
(09:25):
Of like this person didn't haveaccess or they were, you know,
they were somewhere else or weknew that whatever it is, but
like to prevent somebody fromhaving done the crime are often
really good ways to plant cluesthat are satisfying, but maybe
not super clear.
evident right away.
But the book that I justfinished drafting that is not a
(09:46):
part of the series.
I didn't know who did it untilmaybe like chapter six or seven
so that I set up a handful ofreally interesting hooks that I
then eliminated later on.
So yeah, it just kind of changesstory to story but worth worth
conscious thought for sure.
David Gwyn (10:04):
Yeah.
So that's so fun.
So one of the things I wasthinking about, you know, and
we'll talk about it here, whichis, you know, some of your clues
that you're dripping in are realclues that lead to who did it.
And then some are clues thatultimately dead end somewhere
along the way.
Right.
And that's kind of like how thered herring works.
And so are you, are you, itsounds like at least in the book
(10:26):
that you have now, like, thoseclues that led to the different
people, like, probably startedoff as all real clues, like, you
don't know necessarily whichone's gonna be real clues and
which one's gonna be redherring, is that, is that kind
of how that worked For you?
Eloise Corvo (10:39):
this latest book, that's exactly what happened,
which is really fun to write.
It, it's requiring a muchheavier editing hand on the back
end, obviously.
So it was a little more, like,pantsy, so to speak, than I
normally do.
But it was a really fun way towrite a mystery.
And I think if someone's, like,trying to just explore that
genre and just see what happens,that's a fun way to do it.
David Gwyn (11:00):
that's cool.
And so when you're going back,whether you, whether it's
editing the one you're on now orediting the ones coming out when
you're reading and you'rethinking about your red
herrings, do you have any checksin your head where you're like,
okay, that's, you know, it'sright on that edge of there, it
goes on long enough, or it's, itseems, they seem guilty enough,
but not so guilty that like areader knows that they did it.
(11:20):
Like.
Do you think about that and howdo you kind of navigate those
conversations in your own headwhile you're drafting and
editing?
Eloise Corvo (11:27):
That's a really cool question.
Again, each story sort of hasits own necessities, but there
are definitely, like, cycles toa cozy mystery that you can plot
out.
And you can essentially take anycozy off the shelf and it'll
follow similar, you know, thesecycles of interviews.
So basically you have three orfour legit suspects, right?
(11:52):
Many of which are, most of whichare red herrings and you
eventually cycle through theseinteractions with your main
character and those other, thecast of characters that are
suspects and you sort ofeliminate them as you go along.
So it creates this really nicebalance where you're narrowing.
You're like starting to hone in,but you never want to go, at
(12:15):
least I personally, never wantto go into like the climax of
the book with the murdereralready being revealed.
The main character probablyknows who it is, but the reader
doesn't yet.
There's two folks left.
So you narrow it down, you gothrough this like iterative
process, and I think it's okayto let one or two linger on as
(12:36):
long as you can, essentially.
Yeah,
David Gwyn (12:40):
I feel like as readers, you know, you're you
have your own Guesses about whodid it and it's sometimes just
as fun to be wrong as it is tobe right It's like just as
satisfying to feel like Imentioned, you know You're
misled, but not tricked.
You're not cheated.
It's just that you were wrong.
Like, you guessed, and youguessed wrong, and I think that
that's a really fun part of themystery genre in general which
(13:03):
just makes them such fun reads.
And so, I have, I run thiscommunity for writers the
Storyteller Society, and there'sa, there's a writer in there
who's drafting right now, andshe wants to, input red
herrings.
And she's just like, she's like,yeah, but I keep struggling with
like where exactly to, like,who's a red?
And she's like, I know who didit.
So like, how do I build thatout?
(13:24):
Do you have any suggestions forlike retroactively putting in
red herrings?
Like let's say you have yourstory written and you get to the
end and you're like, Ooh, I onlyhave, you know, one red herring.
And it's, it's kind of capped atthis moment, but it would be
beneficial.
Like you're mentioning, you'dlike to have two going into, the
climax.
Any suggestions for how to kindof build in red herrings through
(13:44):
the editing process?
Eloise Corvo (13:46):
yeah, for sure.
So to any mystery, you reallyneed three things.
You need the motive, the means,like how they did it, and the
opportunity.
So the time, like timelinelining up, right?
And so in order to plant redherrings, all you need to do is
to present those three thingswith other characters.
(14:10):
but just not all three for thesame character.
So any red herring, in order tobe satisfying, in my opinion,
needs to only have one or two ofthose things.
If you have all three, just likethe legitimate murderer or
culprit or whatever sort ofmystery you're telling, that's
also not satisfying to thereader.
(14:31):
Because then at the end, they'relike, well, If I go back and
pick apart all these clues, itis still possible for this
person to have done it, and thatdoesn't feel like a great
satisfying, like, closure to astory.
There really should only be theone person who is possible to
have committed the crime.
So you just gotta seed thoseother things in little
(14:52):
combinations and make sure thatthat third, whatever it might
be, the opportunity or themotive, isn't strong, right?
Not presented.
So,
David Gwyn (15:00):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that's such a great wayof thinking about it.
And it makes it so manageable.
I feel like the thinking aboutit that way, as opposed to
thinking I have to go back andrestructure the whole plot.
It's like, yeah, maybe, maybe,but maybe you just really need
to present one or two of thesethings.
And it's enough for, you know,clever readers as mystery
readers are, you know, themystery thriller, this, this
genre of readers are verycareful readers because they
(15:23):
know that the author is in someways, you know, trying to
mislead them or, or you know,present this story in a way that
makes it tricky to figure out.
So I think that's, that's suchvaluable information.
advice for people.
So thanks so much for sharing.
And my last question for you isjust where can people find you?
Where can people look you up?
Eloise Corvo (15:40):
Yeah, so I am on X a little bit, which I know is
where we met, but in recentchanges I'm less on there, but
that's at Eloise Corvo.
Same with Instagram and TikTok,is at author underscore.
Eloise Corvo.
So those are probably the bestways to get at me.
(16:01):
My website is just eloisecorvo.
com.
Also happy to like collaborate,drop a line.
The book will be available onAmazon, barnesandnoble.
com, and hopefully a bunch ofindie stores around the country.
So keep an eye out.
David Gwyn (16:14):
Yeah, super cool.
So I get to be kind of the firstone because we're, I mean we're
recording this now and it won'tbe out for a couple weeks
obviously, but to saycongratulations, so congrats.
Cause if you're listening tothis her Eloise Corvo's book is
out off the beaten path.
Definitely go pick pick this oneup, check it out.
Really fun read, if you'relistening to this and you're
struggling with red herrings,what a great example of a book
(16:37):
to pick up and learn how to dored herring.
So Eloise, this was so much fun.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to chat.
Eloise Corvo (16:42):
Always, David.
Thanks so much.
David Gwyn (16:44):
Okay, and that's it.
So what I love about Eloise'sapproach to red herrings is how
she boils it down in such aclear, actionable formula.
Focusing on those like threeessential elements of Motive,
means opportunity.
As she shared, the key is reallyensuring that your red herring
characters have one or two ofthese elements, but never all
three.
I found these insights reallyvaluable because it gave me a
(17:06):
framework for creating thismisdirection without resorting
to like those cheap tricks thatreaders can always see coming
and they and they really don'tenjoy.
So today's challenge for you isfor your manuscript, analyze the
suspects that you have.
Use Eloise's framework.
Identify which characters havewhich elements.
Motive, means opportunity.
(17:27):
It's a simple exercise, but itcan really dramatically improve
how you structure the suspicionthat your readers have in your
stories.
Remember, crafting satisfyingmysteries isn't about tricking
readers.
It's about giving them a puzzlethey can solve alongside your
protagonist with just the rightbalance of challenge and
satisfaction.
I hope you enjoyed this adviceas much as I did, and I'll see
(17:48):
you next week.
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