October 15, 2025 • 27 mins
Struggling with how to write a thriller that grabs readers immediately?
In this interview, writing expert Daniel David Wallace shares game-changing writing tips for crafting plots that keep readers hooked from page one.
Daniel, creator of the Character First Writing Approach and host of Escape the Plot Forest summit, reveals why traditional plotting advice often fails thriller writers.
And he offers three essential strategies for developing compelling, character-driven narratives.
Whether you're working on your first manuscript or polishing a novel for traditional publishing, these writing techniques will help you avoid the common pitfalls that cause readers to abandon your story.
Learn how to create protagonists with immediate momentum, maintain emotional connection through plot twists, and structure midpoints that trap both your characters and your readers in the story.
Learn more about Daniel here...
Daniel David Wallace is the host of Escape the Plot Forest, an annual online conference for writers. He spent four years of a PhD researching new ways to help writers tell a great story.
His stories, reviews, and essays have been published in great magazines like Tampa Review, McSweeney's Internet Tendency, Air Schooner, and his writing has won him awards like the Toni Brown scholarship and the Hodges prizes.
Daniel designed a way of teaching plot, the "character-first" approach that aims to return writers to their original love of storytelling (because it teaches you to write according to how your ideal readers will experience your book).
This approach has resonated with so many people: more than 13,000 writers read his newsletter each week.
Literary Agent and Author Jenna Satterthwaite on Making it in the Publishing Industry
First Page Formula: Author and Writing Coach April Davila on What Agents & Readers Want to See in Your Thriller Manuscript Opening
How to Edit Your Own Writing with Author & Editor Chantelle Aimée Osman
Get the list of 125+ Literary Agents who rep Thriller, Mystery, Suspense, and Crime Fiction
Study the Opening Paragraphs of the Top Authors Writing Thrillers Right Now
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Gwyn (00:00):
Daniel, thank you so much for being on the Thriller 1
(00:02):
0 1 Podcast.
I wanted to start before we getinto this and I, I just kind of
mentioned this before we startedrecording, but I, I wanted
people to hear it too.
Daniel David Wallace (00:09):
to hear
David Gwyn (00:09):
I've been attending your summits and been on your
newsletter for
Daniel David Wallace (00:13):
for
David Gwyn (00:14):
time.
So it is very cool to be herechatting with you.
Daniel David Wallace (00:17):
with you.
you so much.
David Gwyn (00:18):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (00:19):
I really appreciate it.
And looking forward to, to, tosharing some
David Gwyn (00:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we're, we're gonna, we'regonna dive right in here.
We got a lot to share, which I,I'm really excited about.
But first, before we do, I, I'dlove to have you just kind of
give a quick overview of, of whoyou are, what you're working on.
Daniel David Wallace (00:31):
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
Hi everybody.
I am a fiction writing teacher.
I created a system of writingcalled the Character First
Writing Approach people in arange of different genres and
styles and goals to get back totheir original love of
storytelling to.
Try to think through and, andplot the way their readers read.
(00:54):
And so the whole process feelshopefully a lot more natural and
organic than some of the pathsyou will take when they try to
learn how to be a betterstoryteller, be a better
plotter.
David Gwyn (01:04):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (01:05):
I'm also the host of Escape the Plot
Forest an annual summit, which Ithink we're gonna talk about
this event, this, this, thissession.
Thank you so much.
and that's just an amazing eventthat I started several years
ago.
Not knowing what it would turninto, and I'm, I'm very grateful
that I've built up thiscommunity of people who keep
coming back and it's beenfantastic.
David Gwyn (01:26):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (01:26):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (01:26):
That's awesome.
Daniel David Wallace (01:27):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (01:27):
What a, what a great quick overview
Daniel David Wallace (01:29):
overview
David Gwyn (01:30):
here.
So, so let's talk a little bitabout Escape the Plot Forest
Summit.
Tell us the, the dates, times,like the details on that.
Daniel David Wallace (01:37):
Great.
So the event starts on the 18thof October, so it's coming
David Gwyn (01:41):
Yeah,
Daniel David Wallace (01:43):
It is five days.
It's almost 40 speakers.
David Gwyn (01:47):
I.
Daniel David Wallace (01:47):
And we have our opening happy hours.
I teach a three part classduring the middle days, which is
always a lot of fun.
Teach that live.
I kind of watch what everyone'stalking about, things that seem
to be confusing people, then Itry to construct some live
classes to, to deliver that.
It's always a bit of a high wireSometimes it doesn't completely
land.
(02:08):
Some my best sessions have comeout of that.
I did a whole session about eyecolor that made people very
David Gwyn (02:13):
Oh wow.
Daniel David Wallace (02:14):
I have, of the opinion that eye color can
spend, can take up too much timein a story, and we can have
less, we can have fewer eyecolors unless there's some kind
of magical reason why people'seyes are important.
The event is totally free if youcould show up and attend live.
So if you can watch the wholething with a notepad and a cup
(02:35):
of coffee, you can watch thewhole thing five days.
It's, it's a very substantialcraft education, and I try to
get all my speakers to speaklonger than they often do at
events like this.
Really, that's my, one of my fewsecret sources is just to keep
asking questions.
But the end result is that.
Over these five days, you get areally detailed and, and
(02:58):
profound education in, instorytelling, in plotting, and,
and this year we've got a lot ofnon-fiction sessions too,
David Gwyn (03:05):
Oh, very cool.
Daniel David Wallace (03:06):
but you can also upgrade to get the paid
pass.
I didn't invent this model, bythe way.
It's a well-known way ofdesigning this kind of online
event.
But you get the replay access,you get a bunch of other
bonuses, and I made a littlemini course this
David Gwyn (03:18):
Oh, cool.
Daniel David Wallace (03:19):
Start Your Story in the Right Place.
And people who sign up for thePayPal get that for
David Gwyn (03:23):
Very cool.
Daniel David Wallace (03:24):
it's a nice little bonus.
I think that's, that's, that's,that's the key information.
We have a really great and partof the reason why we have a
great community is that we havea, a very firmly applied code of
conduct, and I feel really luckythat.
It was really the attendees thatstarted pointing out to me what
(03:46):
I kept talking about.
And they'd say, Daniel, you needto write this down.
Like this keeps coming up atdifferent events.
You're sort of explaining bitsof it problems emerge.
Let's get it written down.
I thought that is a verysensible idea.
as with many things in theevent, I, I feel like I am a
collaborator or maybe even afollower to the people who keep
coming back and just trying tomake the event, event worthy of
(04:08):
them.
Hmm.
David Gwyn (04:10):
Yeah, I, I love that.
And I, I think too, like forpeople who are listening,
Daniel David Wallace (04:13):
who are
David Gwyn (04:13):
You know, I, I
Daniel David Wallace (04:14):
I
David Gwyn (04:15):
into the, the, the VIP I've used the replays.
I'm somebody who's, who's got abusy, busy life and it's, but
it's worth it to me.
There's so much great contentand, you know, watching live is
great, but being able to go backand even like, grab sessions and
rewatch'em.
Is so helpful.
And it, it's, it's so worth it.
So any, anyone who's interested,definitely check this out.
I, I would recommend the, doingthe, the VIP getting the, the
(04:37):
replays because.
The reality is, you know, it's,it's so much content that it's
really hard to consume it all,all at once across five days.
And it's a wonderful, like it issomething that it, I think it's
great that you put it on forfree for people who can who can
make the time.
I think that's just a great wayof adding access to, to things.
I think.
That's wonderful.
So thank you for all the workthat you do.
I, I've done many versions ofthis.
(04:58):
I have a, I have a communitythat I run and I've done like
very small sessions and like,it's like with.
With like 15 people.
Like, I can't imagine whatyou're doing with, with as many
people as you get to thesesummits.
So it's very cool.
And, and I know as, as a writer,I can, I can speak for, for a
lot of writers and say like, Ido appreciate, really do
appreciate the hard work thatgoes into that.
Daniel David Wallace (05:18):
Thank you
David Gwyn (05:19):
Of course.
So,
Daniel David Wallace (05:19):
course.
David Gwyn (05:20):
tell me a little bit about why you think these events
are so important for writers toparticipate in.
Daniel David Wallace (05:27):
Well, I got two reasons, and you know, I
don't think they're gonna beparticularly unique or
surprising things, but I thinkthey're worth saying.
The first is, I think that manywriters, even the people who
come to classes, listen to craftof writing podcasts, go to
events.
We still have this little voicein our, in our heads that says.
(05:49):
You should just be able to dothis by yourself.
You should just be able to justwrite.
your backside in the chair andjust make the stories come out.
I think that while that is, isworth listening to that advice,
and sometimes you do just haveto sit in the chair and, and
make the story come out.
I, I totally accept that.
But that learning the craftlearning skills and, and just
(06:09):
hearing things afresh is sovaluable to writers.
You are competing with peoplewho either have been doing this
for a really long time.
access to great professionaleditors in their publishing
houses, or in some cases werewriting since they were very
small children.
And so by the time they were 18,they had solved a whole bunch of
(06:31):
problems that you now as anadult are trying to figure out
with your busy life.
And it's really okay to say toyourself, I just need to listen
to different kinds of plottingadvice from different teachers,
some of it is gonna hit me in away that I'm not expecting
Suddenly that.
Odd element or that thing I keephearing about will make sense.
(06:52):
And in my experience, it's verydifficult to predict what that
is gonna be.
just to be clear, like Ilistened to most of the event
before it happens because Iprerecord stuff.
Mm-hmm.
And it's not like I'm sittingthere thinking, oh yeah, here we
go again.
You know, three act structure,hero's journey.
I mean would be a very, a verysad session.
(07:13):
Frequently what I'm hearing islike.
never thought of it that way.
That's a really nice way ofputting it.
That makes a lot of sense.
And when I'm sitting there inthe, in the video looking like
I'm impressed by the speaker Iam, I'm like, oh, that's really
clever.
so I think that's reallyimportant, like just getting the
training and it's, it's rightthere.
Five days.
You just need to ignore your catfor a bit you know, apologize to
(07:35):
your children and you can have ahuge amount of craft education
in a really small amount of
David Gwyn (07:41):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (07:42):
The second one is that life for many of us
conspires to make us feel likeour writing isn't that
important.
If you have, if you already havea huge book deal and this, and
the agent is screaming at you toget the next book out, that
might be different.
But for many of us, we arefeeling like we publish a book.
(08:03):
It's hard to find people to readit.
We're trying.
We're trying.
We're getting into book to draftthree.
Is anyone actually out there?
It's so powerful to be in aplace for basically a week where
you are surrounded by people whoagree that what you're doing is
important they are supportiveand actively looking for fellow
writers to allies with, to befriends with, to, to, to support
(08:26):
each other and to see perhaps,you know, your next mentor at
the event.
For some people, you know, Ihope that'll be me.
But there's, it is very possiblethat you'll see someone at the
event that suits you better,that speaks in a way, or is
writing the kind of books oradvises the kind of writer that
you want to be.
And that, that's fantastic.
I think that's, I think tryingto do it all alone with the
(08:49):
pressure that the world put us,puts us all under you know, it's
David Gwyn (08:54):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (08:54):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (08:55):
I love that.
I, I think it's such animportant message for people to
hear.
And I think you're right, likelistening, you know, I always
tell people like, if you're hereand you're listening to this,
like you're doing the good work,but like, this is the next step,
right?
Like going to a summit, going,going to a conference, doing you
know, that type of work is thenext step on in, in your writing
journey.
And if you wanna take thisseriously it's just the things
that, that kind of come with theterritory.
(09:15):
You know, it'd be like anythingelse, right?
Anything else you wanna do thatyou wanna do?
Well.
You, you have to do it the rightway.
So let's, let's talk plot alittle bit.
I, I would love to pick yourbrain, especially now realizing
that you've probably done orlistened to a few of these
sessions.
You probably have even moreideas on plot than you had maybe
a month ago or two months ago.
So what, what are your, if youcould give like three of your
(09:37):
favorite tips or tricks fordeveloping plot, what do you
think those would be?
Daniel David Wallace (09:42):
That's a great question.
the, the, the first thing I, Ioften teach and I talk to people
about, and this is one part ofcharacter first writing.
And it's, it's part, it's thepart that a lot of people
remember because it's, it's,it's about the beginning, so
it's kind of easy to remember.
This part I think that it's,it's really good in a novel to
(10:04):
try to get a character doingsomething really before page
one.
And I think that, you know, I,for say the thriller adjacent
genre, police pro, the policeinvestigating the crime genre.
I think that's why you see somany.
Stories where it's like thepolice officers or detective's
(10:28):
last case, or they're about tomove to a smaller town and have
an easier life.
And that that's not justcharacter flavor, that's not
just a sort of interestingwrinkle put on the character,
like saying, this person's inmotion.
And so as they try and pursuetheir original goal, or they try
(10:51):
to pursue like what they thinkthe story is and the story
pressures them to say there'sactually something bigger.
Here.
You are actually being traced,chased by a serial killer.
There is actually a conspiracyin the town, in the city hall.
The, the heroes resistance tothat reality tells the reader
(11:12):
that that reality is real.
And I find that trying to doinstead the story where like.
A person just living their lifeor doing their job and stuff
just happens to them.
I think that works a lot betterin a film where you've got an
actor looking really charismaticand smiling and you know, George
Clooney's like frying some eggson it in the kitchen.
(11:33):
I watch that.
But when it's your book, youdon't have George Clooney to, to
do the.
To do those lines like you, youjust got a voice in someone's
head.
And so I think that's a reallygood way of, of getting started.
Does that make sense?
Is that
David Gwyn (11:47):
Yeah, it totally does.
And it's funny, I've longsuspected that the Save the Cat
method, especially for certaingenres, I think for certain
genres it works better thanothers.
But I think for, for thethriller and thriller adjacent
genres.
It's really hard to start likeslice of life.
Like it's, unless yourcharacter, their slice of life
is inherently dynamic forreaders, right?
(12:07):
Like you could, you couldpotentially pull off a police
procedural day in the life ifthey're like, their day in the
life is like chasing a somebodydown, right?
Like that, that works then.
But I think day in the life.
It, it just doesn't work inevery genre.
Even though I think Save the Catis great in a lot of things.
I know a lot of people use it.
I know a lot of people love it,and, and I use it and I
understand it, and I, I, I doadhere to it to a certain
(12:28):
degree.
But at the same time, like inthis genre, like you're
mentioning, like it is reallyhard to grab a reader's
attention on page one.
If your character's day-to-daylife isn't particularly dynamic.
Is that kind of what you'resaying here?
Daniel David Wallace (13:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know.
I love save the cat method too.
David Gwyn (13:33):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (13:33):
it's great.
think that like to thecharacter, what's happening on
page one should be reallyimportant.
David Gwyn (13:40):
Hmm.
Daniel David Wallace (13:40):
Mm-hmm.
It might be small, it might besmall stakes.
It might be, you know, notanswered my call about going out
on a date.
It might be my friend won't comeround to gimme that dancing
lesson that she promised youwould.
But I think that it needs to besomething that feels real and
vivid, that gets the characteragonizing about things, hoping
(14:02):
for things, maybe even doingsomething.
I think that it, when you startthere, I think the
misunderstanding people have ofeveryday life.
Is that people think the storybegins in like page five when
the everyday life part is over.
I'm just confident about this.
You don't have until page five.
(14:23):
Maybe you had it until page fiveback in the Victorian era, but
you definitely don't have untilpage five
David Gwyn (14:28):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (14:29):
And I, I, I frequently talk to writers and
their, their confidence in theirreader staggers me when they say
things like, well.
You know, the story will reallykick off from page 15 or, or
even like the 25%
David Gwyn (14:42):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (14:42):
just like, that's not how this
David Gwyn (14:44):
Mm-hmm.
Daniel David Wallace (14:45):
Mm-hmm.
And when I think of the books Ireally like, they frequently
have a wonderful first page.
The character is, even if it issubtle, it doesn't need to, I
don't, I'm not, also not a bleakbig believer and like a huge
fight scene on
David Gwyn (14:57):
Mm-hmm.
Daniel David Wallace (14:58):
Mm-hmm.
I think that frequently fallsflat, but that.
The character is in motion.
Something happened to them inpage minus one or page minus 10
that we don't get to see, butthey are bothered.
And, and from there, I think youcan start to build.
You know, not only can you startto build up an interesting of
plot, but it also starts to hintto you about a whole bunch of
(15:21):
other things that should behappening later in the story in
the middle.
Towards the end, and I think youjust follow those thoughts to
their destination.
You get some really interestingpoints, but that, that's my
David Gwyn (15:31):
Cool.
Daniel David Wallace (15:32):
that's kinda my first idea.
Is that
David Gwyn (15:33):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Let's go to.
Daniel David Wallace (15:34):
Let's go to, let's go to number two.
What do you got for this?
So, I don't know if this isabout plotting, but one of the
things I see people do a lot isthat they will introduce a
character, main character earlyon, and we'll get to see the
character doing things.
Maybe some of this everyday lifestuff that we've talked about.
It's already great, but then asthe story goes on, it's as if we
(15:56):
get more and more distant fromthat character.
It's like the we, we, as soon asyou'll like, you'll be reading a
manuscript say, and you'll turnthe page and they'll just be
like, dialogue the whole page.
And there are some people thatcan make that work.
I don't know Elmore Leonard whoprobably do
David Gwyn (16:11):
Hmm.
Daniel David Wallace (16:12):
but I find that in most cases.
As the main character's,thoughts and feelings, and even
sort of heart to heartconversations with someone else
where they reflect on what'shappening as that shrinks
through the story.
The reader starts to feel andfurther away from what's going
on, and at times cannot evenunderstand what is happening.
(16:34):
Someone will say somethingreally mean to the protagonist,
and then there's just anotherline of dialogue and the reader
is thinking, was that mean?
Did I misread that?
Because the character doesn'tseem to have reacted to it.
And I think that many writersget into the kind of zone where
they're like, well, of coursethe character reacted.
I felt it.
it's hard to sort of re bring usoff back and say, try and get,
(16:57):
like, every time this characteris pushed, startled, I mean
pushed like emotionally andphysically and anything that
happens to the character, thatwould be like a thing, would be
a moment.
Let's get like a reaction on thepage.
And the thing I I, I tell peopleall the time is if you overdo
(17:17):
that stuff in the first draft,anybody.
Your your best friend Bob,editor friends of the Writing
Workshop.
Anybody can read that draft andtell you what to cut?
Yeah.
You laid it on a bit thick here.
Yeah, I got it.
I got it after the third, thethird par sentence of that
introspection.
(17:37):
They can tell you how to removethat stuff and trim it down,
almost nobody can tell you howto do the reverse if it's just
opaque and nobody understandswhat's happening.
Character's going through abunch of scenes, things are
happening.
A lot of stuff is going on.
Character doesn't seem to bereacting well.
They can't tell you what shouldbe on the page because it's not
their character.
You have to get a really goodeditor at that point who can
(17:59):
like get into the story and onan emotional level, understand
story structure.
Understands all kinds of thingsand that they can start filling
it in
David Gwyn (18:06):
Mm-hmm.
Daniel David Wallace (18:07):
You should have reacted here.
Actually, that was a big deal.
Remember that thing on page 20?
They would've remembered that.
That's hard and hard to findsomeone like that and it's,
often kind of expensive to hiresomeone to do that for you.
So I always tell people like,lay that stuff on thick.
Stay close to the character.
are not writing, most of us arenot writing.
(18:30):
British Victorian novels orAmerican Harlem Renaissance
novels where there is like anarrator who is guiding us
through the story telling usright and wrong, steering us to
understand what is we aresupposed to be taking from the
story.
If you're writing that kind ofbook, this advice is less
relevant, I don't know anybodytr very few people are trying to
(18:52):
write that kind of
David Gwyn (18:52):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (18:52):
so instead, the only guide we have
is our.
Small number of main characters.
And so I say, let's get thatcharacter talking, sharing
thoughts, illuminating thisstory for us, or people just get
lost.
David Gwyn (19:04):
Yeah.
I love that.
I, I,
Daniel David Wallace (19:06):
I,
David Gwyn (19:06):
to bring it back to, to this genre and the, and
these, you know, thrillersuspense, crime fiction.
I feel like a lot of peoplethink
Daniel David Wallace (19:13):
think
David Gwyn (19:14):
a lot about their plot
Daniel David Wallace (19:15):
their
David Gwyn (19:15):
and like, rightfully so.
You're kind of, there's somerequirements when it comes to
plot.
You gotta twist, you gotta havetwists, you gotta have turns,
you gotta have an antagonist.
You gotta have all of thesethings.
And I think that that takes up alot of space.
And when we're thinking ofthriller writers and who are
sitting down and writing andwhen, I think that a lot of
writers that, that I work with,and a lot of writers that I talk
to, my, myself included, we getso caught up in the plot that we
(19:35):
forget the character of it.
So like we are, we're likegetting to the next plot point,
getting to the next plot point,and our characters end up just
like pieces on the board.
And, and I think that that's a,a really great point.
To make, and I think it doesalign with plot be for that
reason, right?
Because like your plot thenbecomes the whole story, but
that's your, your plot's not thestory, the character's the
(19:56):
story, right?
And so I think what, what a,what a really valuable lesson
for people to, to hear asthey're, as they're listening to
this.
Very cool.
Let's do number three.
Daniel David Wallace (20:04):
Okay.
And this one may require thethriller writer to adapt a bit,
but something I think a lotabout, and this is you know, a
another kinda character.
First idea is about the midpointof the story.
And I read as I read morenovels, but contemporary novels,
I feel like the midpoint isbecoming like a really important
(20:26):
thing.
Like I can even remember novels.
Doesn't really have a verysignificant 75% mark despite
what all the plotting advicetells you you're supposed to
have I can't really rememberexactly what happened at the 75%
mark, but I can absolutelyremember the midpoint, something
big happened, some kind of big,big reveal.
I think that a lot of writingadvice of genre independent
(20:51):
writing advice, talks about sortof just like a.
A shift may be in theprotagonist's interests, like
they go from being passive toactive or or disengaged to
engaged.
And I think that kind of adviceis good, but I encourage writers
to be like.
(21:12):
A bit hard on their protagonist.
And again, like in a thrillergenre, you might have to adjust
this a bit, but I like to thinkabout a midpoint as being
something like a knot thatcloses around the protagonist
that they can't get out.
At this point they are somehowstuck in the story, and that
(21:33):
might be in a very characterdriven story.
They go from not wanting to dothe thing to wanting to do the
thing that that could work.
But in other stories there's anamazing novel Jade City fondly
where in Jade City th.
I, I'm gonna slightly givesomeone important dies at the
halfway point, and everyoneelse's role is suddenly
(21:54):
transformed, but they can'tleave now because it's a crisis
it's a great midpoint shift.
It doesn't, yes.
On one level it just sort ofshake, shakes things up.
But on a deeper level, it forcesthese characters to now be in
the story.
They're no longer just watchingother people take charge.
They now have to decide what todo.
And the, the example I love togive,'cause I just think it is
(22:15):
so brilliant, This is themidpoint of the fellowship of
the Ring by token.
And I think that is just such afantastic example of like what a
midpoint can be.
And if you, if you, just torecap the book, In the
fellowship of the ring Froto isgiven the ring.
He's told he's gotta go on thisjourney and he decides, well, I
(22:37):
dunno where to go, so why notjust go and visit Bilbo?
My old, my old friend fatherfigure, let's go see Bilbo.
He spends the first half of thebook trying to get to, to Bilbo
on the way he discovers he'sbeing hunted.
He's not strong enough to, tofight off these people.
They are basically hounding himto death.
He survives just by, you know,almost, almost is killed,
(23:01):
brought back to life.
He and, and by at Aaron's houseand he gets to finally see but
Bilbo and he realizes that theycannot spend time together
because he looks at Bilbo and isdisgusted by him.
He sees his bilbo's desire forthe ring that he now has, and he
realizes that he will not letbilbo see or touch the
David Gwyn (23:21):
Hmm.
Daniel David Wallace (23:22):
And so now he's stuck in the story.
He cannot let go of the ring.
cannot be, he cannot let go ofthe ring.
'cause he's, he's also nowobsessed by it.
He cannot just be sort of calmand relaxed and chill because
he's being haunted by it.
And he gotta get away from bilbosomehow.
And he, he's not safe becausehe's being hunted.
And so it's not like, you know,I realize if you're doing a
(23:45):
thriller where it's just likesomeone from the outside is, is
trying to chase your characterdown, I understand that might
require a bit of adjustment, butI think it's such a great model.
So it's saying to the reader,what's this person gonna do
David Gwyn (23:57):
Hmm.
Daniel David Wallace (23:58):
And I think that's a really good way
of thinking about the middle ofa story.
David Gwyn (24:01):
I, I love that.
I love that thought processaround kind of a, a shift away
from, I think in, in thrillers.
And, and to your point, I thinka lot of people, when they write
thrillers and talking to a lotof thriller writers, they have,
they tend to have that openingscene.
They tend to have.
That 75 to a hundred percentmark, like people tend to feel
really good about those sectionsof their novels.
(24:24):
And then it's that midpoint and,and I'm wondering if, if this to
some degree is, is adaptableand, and would help a lot of
writers in this genre becausethat's what I see.
I see that all the time.
I see writers who are like.
I know exactly how this is gonnaend.
I know who the killer is.
I know what it's gonna looklike.
I know, you know, that's 75%.
I know, like the climax, thewhole thing all the way through.
(24:44):
And I know what my openingcouple of scenes are and then
they get caught in this likewhere like the stakes don't
change for the character.
It's just like more thingshappening.
But,
Daniel David Wallace (24:53):
Oh,
David Gwyn (24:53):
but no, no kind of increase intention.
And I'm wondering, you know,this, this might work really
well in these genres.
So Daniel, my, my last questionfor you is really just around
kind of what, what's next foryou.
So if people are listening tothis, hopefully they're
listening to it early, they're,they're getting in the summit,
they're, they're joining escapethe, the plot for us.
But beyond that, you know,people are listening to this a
little bit later or they want tokeep in contact with you.
(25:16):
Like, what, what do you gotcoming up next for you?
Daniel David Wallace (25:18):
am, I love to teach.
I come up with this stuff, newstuff all the time.
I'm constantly thinking of waysto.
Reach the next writer.
And on a very practical note, Ihave the next summit coming up
in March, 2026.
It's called Perfect YourProcess.
It's a writing process andlifestyle and Life and Writing
(25:39):
Habits event that's coming up inMarch.
And I have a range of, when I'mnot doing my summits, I have a
range of courses, some for free,some, I have a group coaching
program called The Residencythat's really popular and so I'm
always.
Eager to meet new writers andsee if the way I teach is useful
to
David Gwyn (26:00):
Nice.
And so where, where can peoplefind you?
Where can people look you up ifthey're, if they're listening to
this and they wanna find you?
Daniel David Wallace (26:05):
wanna find you?
The best way is to go to mywebsite, Daniel David
wallace.com take a look around,the free call, sign up, and then
I'll be in touch with my emaillist.
I email people a lot.
I, I, I love to being in touchwith people and if you like.
The way I talk about writing,I'm doing this all the time, and
I'm writing those
David Gwyn (26:25):
Love it.
Daniel David Wallace (26:25):
I would love to stay in touch with
David Gwyn (26:26):
Nice.
So yeah, and I, like I said,I'm, I'm a poster child for your
email list'cause I've been onthere for a while.
So appreciate the content youput out.
And I'll link, I'll link thewebsite to the description so
people can check that out.
Daniel, this has been amazing.
Thank you so much for taking thetime to chat.
Of
Daniel David Wallace (26:42):
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for having
Daniel, thank you so much for being on the Thriller 1
(00:02):
0 1 Podcast.
I wanted to start before we getinto this and I, I just kind of
mentioned this before we startedrecording, but I, I wanted
people to hear it too.
Daniel David Wallace (00:09):
to hear
David Gwyn (00:09):
I've been attending your summits and been on your
newsletter for
Daniel David Wallace (00:13):
for
David Gwyn (00:14):
time.
So it is very cool to be herechatting with you.
Daniel David Wallace (00:17):
with you.
you so much.
David Gwyn (00:18):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (00:19):
I really appreciate it.
And looking forward to, to, tosharing some
David Gwyn (00:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we're, we're gonna, we'regonna dive right in here.
We got a lot to share, which I,I'm really excited about.
But first, before we do, I, I'dlove to have you just kind of
give a quick overview of, of whoyou are, what you're working on.
Daniel David Wallace (00:31):
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
Hi everybody.
I am a fiction writing teacher.
I created a system of writingcalled the Character First
Writing Approach people in arange of different genres and
styles and goals to get back totheir original love of
storytelling to.
Try to think through and, andplot the way their readers read.
(00:54):
And so the whole process feelshopefully a lot more natural and
organic than some of the pathsyou will take when they try to
learn how to be a betterstoryteller, be a better
plotter.
David Gwyn (01:04):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (01:05):
I'm also the host of Escape the Plot
Forest an annual summit, which Ithink we're gonna talk about
this event, this, this, thissession.
Thank you so much.
and that's just an amazing eventthat I started several years
ago.
Not knowing what it would turninto, and I'm, I'm very grateful
that I've built up thiscommunity of people who keep
coming back and it's beenfantastic.
David Gwyn (01:26):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (01:26):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (01:26):
That's awesome.
Daniel David Wallace (01:27):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (01:27):
What a, what a great quick overview
Daniel David Wallace (01:29):
overview
David Gwyn (01:30):
here.
So, so let's talk a little bitabout Escape the Plot Forest
Summit.
Tell us the, the dates, times,like the details on that.
Daniel David Wallace (01:37):
Great.
So the event starts on the 18thof October, so it's coming
David Gwyn (01:41):
Yeah,
Daniel David Wallace (01:43):
It is five days.
It's almost 40 speakers.
David Gwyn (01:47):
I.
Daniel David Wallace (01:47):
And we have our opening happy hours.
I teach a three part classduring the middle days, which is
always a lot of fun.
Teach that live.
I kind of watch what everyone'stalking about, things that seem
to be confusing people, then Itry to construct some live
classes to, to deliver that.
It's always a bit of a high wireSometimes it doesn't completely
land.
(02:08):
Some my best sessions have comeout of that.
I did a whole session about eyecolor that made people very
David Gwyn (02:13):
Oh wow.
Daniel David Wallace (02:14):
I have, of the opinion that eye color can
spend, can take up too much timein a story, and we can have
less, we can have fewer eyecolors unless there's some kind
of magical reason why people'seyes are important.
The event is totally free if youcould show up and attend live.
So if you can watch the wholething with a notepad and a cup
(02:35):
of coffee, you can watch thewhole thing five days.
It's, it's a very substantialcraft education, and I try to
get all my speakers to speaklonger than they often do at
events like this.
Really, that's my, one of my fewsecret sources is just to keep
asking questions.
But the end result is that.
Over these five days, you get areally detailed and, and
(02:58):
profound education in, instorytelling, in plotting, and,
and this year we've got a lot ofnon-fiction sessions too,
David Gwyn (03:05):
Oh, very cool.
Daniel David Wallace (03:06):
but you can also upgrade to get the paid
pass.
I didn't invent this model, bythe way.
It's a well-known way ofdesigning this kind of online
event.
But you get the replay access,you get a bunch of other
bonuses, and I made a littlemini course this
David Gwyn (03:18):
Oh, cool.
Daniel David Wallace (03:19):
Start Your Story in the Right Place.
And people who sign up for thePayPal get that for
David Gwyn (03:23):
Very cool.
Daniel David Wallace (03:24):
it's a nice little bonus.
I think that's, that's, that's,that's the key information.
We have a really great and partof the reason why we have a
great community is that we havea, a very firmly applied code of
conduct, and I feel really luckythat.
It was really the attendees thatstarted pointing out to me what
(03:46):
I kept talking about.
And they'd say, Daniel, you needto write this down.
Like this keeps coming up atdifferent events.
You're sort of explaining bitsof it problems emerge.
Let's get it written down.
I thought that is a verysensible idea.
as with many things in theevent, I, I feel like I am a
collaborator or maybe even afollower to the people who keep
coming back and just trying tomake the event, event worthy of
(04:08):
them.
Hmm.
David Gwyn (04:10):
Yeah, I, I love that.
And I, I think too, like forpeople who are listening,
Daniel David Wallace (04:13):
who are
David Gwyn (04:13):
You know, I, I
Daniel David Wallace (04:14):
I
David Gwyn (04:15):
into the, the, the VIP I've used the replays.
I'm somebody who's, who's got abusy, busy life and it's, but
it's worth it to me.
There's so much great contentand, you know, watching live is
great, but being able to go backand even like, grab sessions and
rewatch'em.
Is so helpful.
And it, it's, it's so worth it.
So any, anyone who's interested,definitely check this out.
I, I would recommend the, doingthe, the VIP getting the, the
(04:37):
replays because.
The reality is, you know, it's,it's so much content that it's
really hard to consume it all,all at once across five days.
And it's a wonderful, like it issomething that it, I think it's
great that you put it on forfree for people who can who can
make the time.
I think that's just a great wayof adding access to, to things.
I think.
That's wonderful.
So thank you for all the workthat you do.
I, I've done many versions ofthis.
(04:58):
I have a, I have a communitythat I run and I've done like
very small sessions and like,it's like with.
With like 15 people.
Like, I can't imagine whatyou're doing with, with as many
people as you get to thesesummits.
So it's very cool.
And, and I know as, as a writer,I can, I can speak for, for a
lot of writers and say like, Ido appreciate, really do
appreciate the hard work thatgoes into that.
Daniel David Wallace (05:18):
Thank you
David Gwyn (05:19):
Of course.
So,
Daniel David Wallace (05:19):
course.
David Gwyn (05:20):
tell me a little bit about why you think these events
are so important for writers toparticipate in.
Daniel David Wallace (05:27):
Well, I got two reasons, and you know, I
don't think they're gonna beparticularly unique or
surprising things, but I thinkthey're worth saying.
The first is, I think that manywriters, even the people who
come to classes, listen to craftof writing podcasts, go to
events.
We still have this little voicein our, in our heads that says.
(05:49):
You should just be able to dothis by yourself.
You should just be able to justwrite.
your backside in the chair andjust make the stories come out.
I think that while that is, isworth listening to that advice,
and sometimes you do just haveto sit in the chair and, and
make the story come out.
I, I totally accept that.
But that learning the craftlearning skills and, and just
(06:09):
hearing things afresh is sovaluable to writers.
You are competing with peoplewho either have been doing this
for a really long time.
access to great professionaleditors in their publishing
houses, or in some cases werewriting since they were very
small children.
And so by the time they were 18,they had solved a whole bunch of
(06:31):
problems that you now as anadult are trying to figure out
with your busy life.
And it's really okay to say toyourself, I just need to listen
to different kinds of plottingadvice from different teachers,
some of it is gonna hit me in away that I'm not expecting
Suddenly that.
Odd element or that thing I keephearing about will make sense.
(06:52):
And in my experience, it's verydifficult to predict what that
is gonna be.
just to be clear, like Ilistened to most of the event
before it happens because Iprerecord stuff.
Mm-hmm.
And it's not like I'm sittingthere thinking, oh yeah, here we
go again.
You know, three act structure,hero's journey.
I mean would be a very, a verysad session.
(07:13):
Frequently what I'm hearing islike.
never thought of it that way.
That's a really nice way ofputting it.
That makes a lot of sense.
And when I'm sitting there inthe, in the video looking like
I'm impressed by the speaker Iam, I'm like, oh, that's really
clever.
so I think that's reallyimportant, like just getting the
training and it's, it's rightthere.
Five days.
You just need to ignore your catfor a bit you know, apologize to
(07:35):
your children and you can have ahuge amount of craft education
in a really small amount of
David Gwyn (07:41):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (07:42):
The second one is that life for many of us
conspires to make us feel likeour writing isn't that
important.
If you have, if you already havea huge book deal and this, and
the agent is screaming at you toget the next book out, that
might be different.
But for many of us, we arefeeling like we publish a book.
(08:03):
It's hard to find people to readit.
We're trying.
We're trying.
We're getting into book to draftthree.
Is anyone actually out there?
It's so powerful to be in aplace for basically a week where
you are surrounded by people whoagree that what you're doing is
important they are supportiveand actively looking for fellow
writers to allies with, to befriends with, to, to, to support
(08:26):
each other and to see perhaps,you know, your next mentor at
the event.
For some people, you know, Ihope that'll be me.
But there's, it is very possiblethat you'll see someone at the
event that suits you better,that speaks in a way, or is
writing the kind of books oradvises the kind of writer that
you want to be.
And that, that's fantastic.
I think that's, I think tryingto do it all alone with the
(08:49):
pressure that the world put us,puts us all under you know, it's
David Gwyn (08:54):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (08:54):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (08:55):
I love that.
I, I think it's such animportant message for people to
hear.
And I think you're right, likelistening, you know, I always
tell people like, if you're hereand you're listening to this,
like you're doing the good work,but like, this is the next step,
right?
Like going to a summit, going,going to a conference, doing you
know, that type of work is thenext step on in, in your writing
journey.
And if you wanna take thisseriously it's just the things
that, that kind of come with theterritory.
(09:15):
You know, it'd be like anythingelse, right?
Anything else you wanna do thatyou wanna do?
Well.
You, you have to do it the rightway.
So let's, let's talk plot alittle bit.
I, I would love to pick yourbrain, especially now realizing
that you've probably done orlistened to a few of these
sessions.
You probably have even moreideas on plot than you had maybe
a month ago or two months ago.
So what, what are your, if youcould give like three of your
(09:37):
favorite tips or tricks fordeveloping plot, what do you
think those would be?
Daniel David Wallace (09:42):
That's a great question.
the, the, the first thing I, Ioften teach and I talk to people
about, and this is one part ofcharacter first writing.
And it's, it's part, it's thepart that a lot of people
remember because it's, it's,it's about the beginning, so
it's kind of easy to remember.
This part I think that it's,it's really good in a novel to
(10:04):
try to get a character doingsomething really before page
one.
And I think that, you know, I,for say the thriller adjacent
genre, police pro, the policeinvestigating the crime genre.
I think that's why you see somany.
Stories where it's like thepolice officers or detective's
(10:28):
last case, or they're about tomove to a smaller town and have
an easier life.
And that that's not justcharacter flavor, that's not
just a sort of interestingwrinkle put on the character,
like saying, this person's inmotion.
And so as they try and pursuetheir original goal, or they try
(10:51):
to pursue like what they thinkthe story is and the story
pressures them to say there'sactually something bigger.
Here.
You are actually being traced,chased by a serial killer.
There is actually a conspiracyin the town, in the city hall.
The, the heroes resistance tothat reality tells the reader
(11:12):
that that reality is real.
And I find that trying to doinstead the story where like.
A person just living their lifeor doing their job and stuff
just happens to them.
I think that works a lot betterin a film where you've got an
actor looking really charismaticand smiling and you know, George
Clooney's like frying some eggson it in the kitchen.
(11:33):
I watch that.
But when it's your book, youdon't have George Clooney to, to
do the.
To do those lines like you, youjust got a voice in someone's
head.
And so I think that's a reallygood way of, of getting started.
Does that make sense?
Is that
David Gwyn (11:47):
Yeah, it totally does.
And it's funny, I've longsuspected that the Save the Cat
method, especially for certaingenres, I think for certain
genres it works better thanothers.
But I think for, for thethriller and thriller adjacent
genres.
It's really hard to start likeslice of life.
Like it's, unless yourcharacter, their slice of life
is inherently dynamic forreaders, right?
(12:07):
Like you could, you couldpotentially pull off a police
procedural day in the life ifthey're like, their day in the
life is like chasing a somebodydown, right?
Like that, that works then.
But I think day in the life.
It, it just doesn't work inevery genre.
Even though I think Save the Catis great in a lot of things.
I know a lot of people use it.
I know a lot of people love it,and, and I use it and I
understand it, and I, I, I doadhere to it to a certain
(12:28):
degree.
But at the same time, like inthis genre, like you're
mentioning, like it is reallyhard to grab a reader's
attention on page one.
If your character's day-to-daylife isn't particularly dynamic.
Is that kind of what you'resaying here?
Daniel David Wallace (13:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know.
I love save the cat method too.
David Gwyn (13:33):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (13:33):
it's great.
think that like to thecharacter, what's happening on
page one should be reallyimportant.
David Gwyn (13:40):
Hmm.
Daniel David Wallace (13:40):
Mm-hmm.
It might be small, it might besmall stakes.
It might be, you know, notanswered my call about going out
on a date.
It might be my friend won't comeround to gimme that dancing
lesson that she promised youwould.
But I think that it needs to besomething that feels real and
vivid, that gets the characteragonizing about things, hoping
(14:02):
for things, maybe even doingsomething.
I think that it, when you startthere, I think the
misunderstanding people have ofeveryday life.
Is that people think the storybegins in like page five when
the everyday life part is over.
I'm just confident about this.
You don't have until page five.
(14:23):
Maybe you had it until page fiveback in the Victorian era, but
you definitely don't have untilpage five
David Gwyn (14:28):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (14:29):
And I, I, I frequently talk to writers and
their, their confidence in theirreader staggers me when they say
things like, well.
You know, the story will reallykick off from page 15 or, or
even like the 25%
David Gwyn (14:42):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (14:42):
just like, that's not how this
David Gwyn (14:44):
Mm-hmm.
Daniel David Wallace (14:45):
Mm-hmm.
And when I think of the books Ireally like, they frequently
have a wonderful first page.
The character is, even if it issubtle, it doesn't need to, I
don't, I'm not, also not a bleakbig believer and like a huge
fight scene on
David Gwyn (14:57):
Mm-hmm.
Daniel David Wallace (14:58):
Mm-hmm.
I think that frequently fallsflat, but that.
The character is in motion.
Something happened to them inpage minus one or page minus 10
that we don't get to see, butthey are bothered.
And, and from there, I think youcan start to build.
You know, not only can you startto build up an interesting of
plot, but it also starts to hintto you about a whole bunch of
(15:21):
other things that should behappening later in the story in
the middle.
Towards the end, and I think youjust follow those thoughts to
their destination.
You get some really interestingpoints, but that, that's my
David Gwyn (15:31):
Cool.
Daniel David Wallace (15:32):
that's kinda my first idea.
Is that
David Gwyn (15:33):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Let's go to.
Daniel David Wallace (15:34):
Let's go to, let's go to number two.
What do you got for this?
So, I don't know if this isabout plotting, but one of the
things I see people do a lot isthat they will introduce a
character, main character earlyon, and we'll get to see the
character doing things.
Maybe some of this everyday lifestuff that we've talked about.
It's already great, but then asthe story goes on, it's as if we
(15:56):
get more and more distant fromthat character.
It's like the we, we, as soon asyou'll like, you'll be reading a
manuscript say, and you'll turnthe page and they'll just be
like, dialogue the whole page.
And there are some people thatcan make that work.
I don't know Elmore Leonard whoprobably do
David Gwyn (16:11):
Hmm.
Daniel David Wallace (16:12):
but I find that in most cases.
As the main character's,thoughts and feelings, and even
sort of heart to heartconversations with someone else
where they reflect on what'shappening as that shrinks
through the story.
The reader starts to feel andfurther away from what's going
on, and at times cannot evenunderstand what is happening.
(16:34):
Someone will say somethingreally mean to the protagonist,
and then there's just anotherline of dialogue and the reader
is thinking, was that mean?
Did I misread that?
Because the character doesn'tseem to have reacted to it.
And I think that many writersget into the kind of zone where
they're like, well, of coursethe character reacted.
I felt it.
it's hard to sort of re bring usoff back and say, try and get,
(16:57):
like, every time this characteris pushed, startled, I mean
pushed like emotionally andphysically and anything that
happens to the character, thatwould be like a thing, would be
a moment.
Let's get like a reaction on thepage.
And the thing I I, I tell peopleall the time is if you overdo
(17:17):
that stuff in the first draft,anybody.
Your your best friend Bob,editor friends of the Writing
Workshop.
Anybody can read that draft andtell you what to cut?
Yeah.
You laid it on a bit thick here.
Yeah, I got it.
I got it after the third, thethird par sentence of that
introspection.
(17:37):
They can tell you how to removethat stuff and trim it down,
almost nobody can tell you howto do the reverse if it's just
opaque and nobody understandswhat's happening.
Character's going through abunch of scenes, things are
happening.
A lot of stuff is going on.
Character doesn't seem to bereacting well.
They can't tell you what shouldbe on the page because it's not
their character.
You have to get a really goodeditor at that point who can
(17:59):
like get into the story and onan emotional level, understand
story structure.
Understands all kinds of thingsand that they can start filling
it in
David Gwyn (18:06):
Mm-hmm.
Daniel David Wallace (18:07):
You should have reacted here.
Actually, that was a big deal.
Remember that thing on page 20?
They would've remembered that.
That's hard and hard to findsomeone like that and it's,
often kind of expensive to hiresomeone to do that for you.
So I always tell people like,lay that stuff on thick.
Stay close to the character.
are not writing, most of us arenot writing.
(18:30):
British Victorian novels orAmerican Harlem Renaissance
novels where there is like anarrator who is guiding us
through the story telling usright and wrong, steering us to
understand what is we aresupposed to be taking from the
story.
If you're writing that kind ofbook, this advice is less
relevant, I don't know anybodytr very few people are trying to
(18:52):
write that kind of
David Gwyn (18:52):
Yeah.
Daniel David Wallace (18:52):
so instead, the only guide we have
is our.
Small number of main characters.
And so I say, let's get thatcharacter talking, sharing
thoughts, illuminating thisstory for us, or people just get
lost.
David Gwyn (19:04):
Yeah.
I love that.
I, I,
Daniel David Wallace (19:06):
I,
David Gwyn (19:06):
to bring it back to, to this genre and the, and
these, you know, thrillersuspense, crime fiction.
I feel like a lot of peoplethink
Daniel David Wallace (19:13):
think
David Gwyn (19:14):
a lot about their plot
Daniel David Wallace (19:15):
their
David Gwyn (19:15):
and like, rightfully so.
You're kind of, there's somerequirements when it comes to
plot.
You gotta twist, you gotta havetwists, you gotta have turns,
you gotta have an antagonist.
You gotta have all of thesethings.
And I think that that takes up alot of space.
And when we're thinking ofthriller writers and who are
sitting down and writing andwhen, I think that a lot of
writers that, that I work with,and a lot of writers that I talk
to, my, myself included, we getso caught up in the plot that we
(19:35):
forget the character of it.
So like we are, we're likegetting to the next plot point,
getting to the next plot point,and our characters end up just
like pieces on the board.
And, and I think that that's a,a really great point.
To make, and I think it doesalign with plot be for that
reason, right?
Because like your plot thenbecomes the whole story, but
that's your, your plot's not thestory, the character's the
(19:56):
story, right?
And so I think what, what a,what a really valuable lesson
for people to, to hear asthey're, as they're listening to
this.
Very cool.
Let's do number three.
Daniel David Wallace (20:04):
Okay.
And this one may require thethriller writer to adapt a bit,
but something I think a lotabout, and this is you know, a
another kinda character.
First idea is about the midpointof the story.
And I read as I read morenovels, but contemporary novels,
I feel like the midpoint isbecoming like a really important
(20:26):
thing.
Like I can even remember novels.
Doesn't really have a verysignificant 75% mark despite
what all the plotting advicetells you you're supposed to
have I can't really rememberexactly what happened at the 75%
mark, but I can absolutelyremember the midpoint, something
big happened, some kind of big,big reveal.
I think that a lot of writingadvice of genre independent
(20:51):
writing advice, talks about sortof just like a.
A shift may be in theprotagonist's interests, like
they go from being passive toactive or or disengaged to
engaged.
And I think that kind of adviceis good, but I encourage writers
to be like.
(21:12):
A bit hard on their protagonist.
And again, like in a thrillergenre, you might have to adjust
this a bit, but I like to thinkabout a midpoint as being
something like a knot thatcloses around the protagonist
that they can't get out.
At this point they are somehowstuck in the story, and that
(21:33):
might be in a very characterdriven story.
They go from not wanting to dothe thing to wanting to do the
thing that that could work.
But in other stories there's anamazing novel Jade City fondly
where in Jade City th.
I, I'm gonna slightly givesomeone important dies at the
halfway point, and everyoneelse's role is suddenly
(21:54):
transformed, but they can'tleave now because it's a crisis
it's a great midpoint shift.
It doesn't, yes.
On one level it just sort ofshake, shakes things up.
But on a deeper level, it forcesthese characters to now be in
the story.
They're no longer just watchingother people take charge.
They now have to decide what todo.
And the, the example I love togive,'cause I just think it is
(22:15):
so brilliant, This is themidpoint of the fellowship of
the Ring by token.
And I think that is just such afantastic example of like what a
midpoint can be.
And if you, if you, just torecap the book, In the
fellowship of the ring Froto isgiven the ring.
He's told he's gotta go on thisjourney and he decides, well, I
(22:37):
dunno where to go, so why notjust go and visit Bilbo?
My old, my old friend fatherfigure, let's go see Bilbo.
He spends the first half of thebook trying to get to, to Bilbo
on the way he discovers he'sbeing hunted.
He's not strong enough to, tofight off these people.
They are basically hounding himto death.
He survives just by, you know,almost, almost is killed,
(23:01):
brought back to life.
He and, and by at Aaron's houseand he gets to finally see but
Bilbo and he realizes that theycannot spend time together
because he looks at Bilbo and isdisgusted by him.
He sees his bilbo's desire forthe ring that he now has, and he
realizes that he will not letbilbo see or touch the
David Gwyn (23:21):
Hmm.
Daniel David Wallace (23:22):
And so now he's stuck in the story.
He cannot let go of the ring.
cannot be, he cannot let go ofthe ring.
'cause he's, he's also nowobsessed by it.
He cannot just be sort of calmand relaxed and chill because
he's being haunted by it.
And he gotta get away from bilbosomehow.
And he, he's not safe becausehe's being hunted.
And so it's not like, you know,I realize if you're doing a
(23:45):
thriller where it's just likesomeone from the outside is, is
trying to chase your characterdown, I understand that might
require a bit of adjustment, butI think it's such a great model.
So it's saying to the reader,what's this person gonna do
David Gwyn (23:57):
Hmm.
Daniel David Wallace (23:58):
And I think that's a really good way
of thinking about the middle ofa story.
David Gwyn (24:01):
I, I love that.
I love that thought processaround kind of a, a shift away
from, I think in, in thrillers.
And, and to your point, I thinka lot of people, when they write
thrillers and talking to a lotof thriller writers, they have,
they tend to have that openingscene.
They tend to have.
That 75 to a hundred percentmark, like people tend to feel
really good about those sectionsof their novels.
(24:24):
And then it's that midpoint and,and I'm wondering if, if this to
some degree is, is adaptableand, and would help a lot of
writers in this genre becausethat's what I see.
I see that all the time.
I see writers who are like.
I know exactly how this is gonnaend.
I know who the killer is.
I know what it's gonna looklike.
I know, you know, that's 75%.
I know, like the climax, thewhole thing all the way through.
(24:44):
And I know what my openingcouple of scenes are and then
they get caught in this likewhere like the stakes don't
change for the character.
It's just like more thingshappening.
But,
Daniel David Wallace (24:53):
Oh,
David Gwyn (24:53):
but no, no kind of increase intention.
And I'm wondering, you know,this, this might work really
well in these genres.
So Daniel, my, my last questionfor you is really just around
kind of what, what's next foryou.
So if people are listening tothis, hopefully they're
listening to it early, they're,they're getting in the summit,
they're, they're joining escapethe, the plot for us.
But beyond that, you know,people are listening to this a
little bit later or they want tokeep in contact with you.
(25:16):
Like, what, what do you gotcoming up next for you?
Daniel David Wallace (25:18):
am, I love to teach.
I come up with this stuff, newstuff all the time.
I'm constantly thinking of waysto.
Reach the next writer.
And on a very practical note, Ihave the next summit coming up
in March, 2026.
It's called Perfect YourProcess.
It's a writing process andlifestyle and Life and Writing
(25:39):
Habits event that's coming up inMarch.
And I have a range of, when I'mnot doing my summits, I have a
range of courses, some for free,some, I have a group coaching
program called The Residencythat's really popular and so I'm
always.
Eager to meet new writers andsee if the way I teach is useful
to
David Gwyn (26:00):
Nice.
And so where, where can peoplefind you?
Where can people look you up ifthey're, if they're listening to
this and they wanna find you?
Daniel David Wallace (26:05):
wanna find you?
The best way is to go to mywebsite, Daniel David
wallace.com take a look around,the free call, sign up, and then
I'll be in touch with my emaillist.
I email people a lot.
I, I, I love to being in touchwith people and if you like.
The way I talk about writing,I'm doing this all the time, and
I'm writing those
David Gwyn (26:25):
Love it.
Daniel David Wallace (26:25):
I would love to stay in touch with
David Gwyn (26:26):
Nice.
So yeah, and I, like I said,I'm, I'm a poster child for your
email list'cause I've been onthere for a while.
So appreciate the content youput out.
And I'll link, I'll link thewebsite to the description so
people can check that out.
Daniel, this has been amazing.
Thank you so much for taking thetime to chat.
Of
Daniel David Wallace (26:42):
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for having
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