August 6, 2025 • 28 mins
Developmental editor and former literary agent Mary Kole breaks down the exact process that transforms manuscripts from "just okay" to "must-read."
In this episode, you'll learn why most writers approach feedback and revision completely wrong.
You’ll discover the important difference between revision and editing.
And you’ll master the "boring edit" technique that ensures your story grips readers from page one to the end.
Mary reveals
- When to seek feedback (and when not to)
- How to create a mission statement that guides every revision decision
- Why cause-and-effect logic is the secret weapon of successful storytellers.
Whether you're drowning in feedback or paralysed by perfectionism, this episode gives you the roadmap to finish your manuscript and make it as good as you’d always hoped it would be.
What You'll Learn:
- How to filter feedback and reject notes that don't serve your story.
- The mission statement technique that guides every revision decision.
- Why big-picture changes must come before sentence-level editing.
Click here to learn more about Mary Kole
Guest Bio: Former literary agent Mary Kole provides consulting and developmental editing services to writers of all categories and genres. She founded Good Story Company in 2019 to create valuable content for writers—like the Thriving Writers Podcast, YouTube channel, and Thriving Writers classes and resources. Mary has presented at hundreds of regional, national, and international writing conferences, and guest lectured at Harvard, the Ringling College of Art and Design, the Highlights Foundation, and the Loft. She also develops unique and commercial intellectual property for middle grade, young adult, and adult readers with Bittersweet Books.
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- First Page Formula: Author and Writing Coach April Davila on What Agents & Readers Want to See in Your Thriller Manuscript Opening
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Gwyn (00:00):
Okay, this week we're heading back into the
(00:01):
Storyteller Society vault here.
we have Mary Cole.
And Mary is a former literaryagent who provides consulting
and developmental editingservices to writers of all
categories and genres.
She founded Good Story Companyin 2019 to create valuable
content for writers.
I like the Good Story podcast,YouTube channel, and writing
craft workshop classes andresources.
(00:24):
Mary has presented at hundredsof regional, national, and
international writingconferences and guest lectured
at Harvard, the Ringling Collegeof Art and Design, the
Highlights Foundation, and theLoft.
She also develops unique andcommercial intellectual property
for middle grade, young adult,and adult readers.
With bittersweet books, Mary hasa MFA in creative writing, has
(00:46):
worked at Chronicle Books, theAndrea Brown Literary Agency,
and Movable Type Management.
Her writing reference booksinclude Writing Irresistible
Kidlet, Writing, or sorry,Writing Irresistible Kidlet,
Irresistible Query Letters,Writing irresistible picture
books and writing interiority,crafting irresistible
characters.
And today she is here to talk tous about getting feedback and
(01:08):
revising with it in mind.
And obviously, I mean, I justread her bio.
If there's a person on theplanet who can talk to us about
getting feedback and revisingwith it in mind.
Mary is that person.
Mary Kole (01:19):
Thank you so much for having me.
Hopefully I can give you somefood for thought.
So, we are positioned now at thebeginning of a revision.
When you feel that you are donewith a project, even though most
manuscripts will not have aconcrete end point, so the idea
of done can be a moving target,you will want to approach your
revision.
(01:40):
I strongly discourage you fromstarting a revision when you
just can't, like, bear to lookat it anymore.
You know, that's not a reallygood reason to kind of dive in
and put your craft gloves on.
I would read it through aminimum of once first without
really messing around, withoutsort of sharpening your knives
just yet.
(02:01):
After taking two weeks away fromit minimum between the end of
the drafting phase and startingyour revision to manufacture a
sense of new eyes for yourself,you may be pleasantly surprised
by what you what you've writtenor you might realize that
there's an uphill battle comingfor you.
But one big decision to makeright away.
Will you solicit feedbackearlier in the process or later?
(02:23):
So this is when we talk aboutworkshop.
We maybe even talk aboutbringing a freelance editor on
board.
And I will give you a disclaimerin just a moment, but you can do
that initially to sort of getsome steering, get some
guidance, get some correction orfeedback as you are sort of
(02:44):
wading into your own revision.
You can also bring on a thirdparty set of eyes when you are
finishing your revision.
You feel ready to submit, butyou want to make sure that all
the I's are dotted, T's arecrossed.
So, those are usually the timesthat writers approach me in my
editorial practice, or they seekout a class, a workshop, a
(03:06):
community like this one.
So, both are very valid.
You will probably get differentfeedback and use it differently
if you get feedback earlierversus later.
So that is something else thatwe will talk about.
We often can't see our own workobjectively, and even seasoned
writers use outside advice.
So, this can be accomplished forfree, but it all depends on how
(03:30):
qualified your reader is.
So, one thing that I will sayhere that might be a little
unexpected is that you don'thave to take feedback just
because it exists and it wasgiven to you.
You can actually choose whichfeedback to use and which
feedback may not be as relevantto you.
It does sometimes make sense topay for expert advice,
(03:50):
especially if you're writing ina specialized category where
that editor also has expertise.
Sometimes you'll want more of acasual reaction that Another
writer or somebody who reads alot in your category can give
but not all feedback is createdequal You want that person to at
least be very conversant in yourgenre?
So some feedback you take with agrain of salt.
(04:13):
It really does depend on who isgiving it.
So if the reader is qualified,knows your target audience and
genre, their notes are likely togive you concrete ideas for
revision.
It's your responsibility toaccept or reject feedback and
then to address the problemsOpportunities for growth issues,
observations, whatever in yourown way, because you know the
(04:34):
story best.
So not all feedback is createdequal, as I said, and if you
know you're listening with anopen mind instead of being
defensive or reactive, you cantake the wisdom and leave the
rest.
Of course, if everybody thatever gave you feedback is an
idiot and you've burned throughall of the freelance editors on
Etsy and just nobody gets yourgenius, you might be operating
(04:57):
with some blinders.
you might be you know, in for abit of a rude awakening.
You may not be able to see yourown writing with clear eyes just
yet.
Some writers who are new togetting feedback, they
definitely need to go throughseveral layers of peeling back
biases and preconceived notions.
But if you can check in withyourself and you can say, Hey,
(05:19):
you know, I'm not.
I'm not being reactive, then youcan discard certain pieces of
feedback that don't resonatewith you.
Sometimes you will also hearindirect feedback that something
about the section or part of thestory or element of the story
isn't working, but you won't getprescriptive guidance, or you
will disagree with their versionof The fix.
(05:41):
They're like, Oh my gosh, youneed to smash these two
characters together.
Well, that piece of feedback canlie there on the page and you
can take it literally and dojust that follow through.
But if something about that notedoesn't really resonate with
you, try to zoom out and think,okay, what is.
What is it maybe about thesecharacters that is striking this
(06:05):
person as redundant, perhaps?
Is it that they both sort ofhave the same worldview when it
comes to the theme, and they'resort of displaying one facet of
the theme that I'm working with?
Do they only play one role orvery similar roles for in their
relationship with theprotagonist?
Maybe instead of smashing themtogether, you can tweak one of
(06:27):
the characters.
Or get rid of them altogether,right?
So there are many, many ways toaddress a piece of feedback.
Sometimes the literal feedbackand any suggested fix is just
not going to be what you end updoing.
So that's kind of a critical eyeand a filter that you need to
bring when you get feedback.
So sometimes feedback will alsobe contradictory.
(06:50):
Which is contradictory, which isvery, very frustrating.
So, the clearer your sense ofyour project and your goals and
kind of your mission statement,which we'll talk about before
you move forward with revision,the more you'll be able to parse
through even contradictoryfeedback and make a revision
plan for yourself.
Obviously, this all applies ifyou're getting feedback before
(07:12):
you do your big revisions,right?
So, again, take some time away.
Zoom out and see if the note ishinting at bigger issues that
you can extrapolate from anyfeedback you receive.
If you agree with an identifiedissue, there are multiple ways
to address most craft problems,right?
(07:33):
You don't have to take theoffered solution, so if the note
has to do with slow pacing,there are a number of different
levers that you can pull.
Shorter sentences and snappiersyntax.
At the sentence level, weedingout descriptions, setting
imagery, play by playchoreography of the action at
the paragraph level, maybeshortening individual scenes or
(07:55):
chopping up your chapters orshifting point of views more
frequently.
All of these options andprobably more that I hadn't even
thought of are available to you.
If somebody is like, the pacingis dragging a little bit in this
section, right?
And maybe addressing the pacingin one of these ways lifts that
(08:16):
perception of the overallpacing.
You don't have to do more, ormaybe you might take more than
one of these approaches to getat that issue of the pacing.
So they're yours to use.
You are in the driver's seat.
You can choose how you want toaddress the note, if you do.
To me, there is a differencebetween revision and editing.
(08:37):
The literal definition ofrevision is to see again, and it
is the process of making ideallybig changes to your manuscript
to help it reach its fullpotential and your full
intention for it.
Editing is actually the processof bringing about that revision.
It usually involves at leastseveral passes through the
manuscript, looking for andrevising different things like
(08:59):
plot character, writing style,theme, cohesion, all of these
things that we will talk, touchupon in this presentation.
So when, when you've cleared thehurdle and gotten a literary
agent, gotten a book deal, itreally does take a village to
raise a book.
Your work has a lot of eyes onit.
from professionals, from copyeditors, and that is a very
(09:19):
different discipline fromdevelopmental editing, which is
more kind of structural bigpicture in nature.
I've read some copy editedmanuscripts where I learned so
much for the cop from the copyeditors because they look at
copy the way, the way that Idon't as kind of a more big
picture structural person, butit's very desirable to edit
(09:40):
yourself before you have thebenefit of that vision.
Until your project becomessubmission ready and potentially
more attractive to getting thosegoals.
you want to be showing up withthe strongest possible version
and third party feedback, yourability to revise.
Not just moving commas around,but actually truly reimagine
elements of your story.
(10:02):
If you figure out that they'renot working, those are going to
help differentiate you withreaders.
If you're going direct toreaders or gatekeepers.
So think about what your storyis about at the biggest kind of
top line level.
Think about writing a missionstatement for your project, a
log line, a pitch.
Those words tend to beintimidating.
(10:22):
A sentence or two that captureswhat your story is.
Is what it's about.
Maybe a hint at plot characterand what you want readers to
walk away feeling the coreemotional experience.
So mission statements have athematic component and you
should know your theme even ifyou don't explain or state it
anywhere.
outlines are very helpful beforea project is written to steer
(10:45):
you in the right direction, keepyou focused.
You can also create a reverseoutline after a project is
written to aid in the revisionprocess.
So that looks like maybe a 20page or so document broken up
into chapters that tracks plotdevelopment, character
development over the course ofyour story.
Outlining is especially helpfulwhen you're juggling multiple
(11:05):
points of views and multiplepoints of view and timelines,
maybe different chronologies,maybe you're jumping back and
forth between two threads as weoften do in thriller, mystery
Outlining can really help youkeep track of exactly what is
going on in each thread.
Can also ensure your plottingcharacter are woven together
with cause and effect logic,which is really, really
(11:26):
important to me when it comes torevision, at least, especially
if you're struggling withplotting or your protagonist
character arc feels flat, oryou've been revising forever.
If you still don't have aproject that you're truly happy
with, or if you've never triedit before, outlining will not
bite you.
And are we talking about thesentence level writing yet?
(11:48):
No.
We do broad strokes first ineffective.
Revision, because if you makechanges on the story level, you
will probably have to change thesupporting text itself.
Fiddling around with the writingat this point is working harder,
not smarter.
Even if you, you know, arereally good at moving commas
around.
Remember, that revision is thatbig thing.
picture zoomed out view of yourstory first.
(12:10):
If you are working from anoutline, you don't have to think
so hard about each choice thatyou make.
The thinking, the ideation, thedevelopment of the story is the
hard part.
And once that's over, thewriting part does tend to flow a
little bit more naturally ifyou're working or revising from
an outline.
So it's a lot easier to alsoexperiment with your proposed
(12:32):
revisions.
On an outline, maybe play outwhat you're planning for your
revision in outline format suitfirst and see how it reads, then
just carrying out a revision on350 pages of novel manuscript,
then going back and seeing howit reads.
And maybe you've made a mistakethere.
If you kind of use the outlineas your sandbox for a revision
(12:54):
as well, it can be a really,really powerful tool.
Don't hesitate to share thatoutline with.
And so if you're doing this as apart of your community, your
critique group, as you're doingthe work, instead of always
submitting pages, especially aspeople become more familiar with
your story, you can run this bythem and say, you know, I'm
thinking of combining these twopoints of view or rearranging
(13:14):
the time or the chronology ofthe, this subplot, what do you
think, as they become familiarwith your story, people will be
able to sound off on, you know,outline stuff and, and kind of
this, this dream work andideation if you bring it to
them.
So take notes, be sure to codifyyour revision plan.
I have a space for that in thechecklist I'll send around.
(13:36):
You can depart from yourrevision plan and you probably
will as you get rolling andreally start thinking and things
start gelling in your head.
But it's a lot easier to keep itall in mind, right?
Keep all those plates spinning.
If you do have a plan, a reverseoutline, an outline, whatever,
whatever format you really liketo work with.
(13:59):
If you have sort of figured outwhat your revision is going to
look like, you will be able toenact it more successfully.
So maybe put your missionstatement that you came up with
on a post it, a note card, evenif you think you know what your
book is about.
It's really helpful to write oneanyway and verbalize it.
That helps with developing thequery letter later in the
(14:20):
process.
If you plan on going onsubmission, create an outline,
whether written or done visuallywith cards, codify that revision
plan, then check each storyelement for cohesion.
That means going through youroutline or your visual board.
Chapter by chapter, card bycard, and asking yourself one
question over and over.
(14:41):
Does this plot point, characterdevelopment point, scene, et
cetera, fit my missionstatement?
Does each chapter, scene,conversation, description earn
its keep?
And here's where we start to beruthless because we want to do
revision, not just commarelocation, right?
So if the manuscript doesn'tdeliver on the mission
statement, either change themission statement premise or
(15:04):
change the execution.
So, throughout our combinedcharacters, move plot points
around, slash the whole middle,and start over.
If you know a section isproblematic, even if you don't
know why, tackle it now insteadof waiting for later.
Tackle it while you're stillmoving the big pieces around and
doing that kind of revolutionaryrevision part of the work that's
(15:28):
seeing the story with new eyes.
If a chapter, character, orevent doesn't fit the mission
statement or theme, you have thefollowing choices.
Keep it, if you have a reasonother than just sheer fondness
for that thing.
Put it aside, maybe create aseparate doc if you simply can't
bear deleting it into thin air.
Or put it elsewhere.
(15:48):
Maybe there's a more appropriatelocation for the element that
you're sort of torn about.
You will be compelled to keepproblematic elements, but
someone will likely call you outfor that sooner or later, and
your writing intuition, which isvery powerful, will say, I told
you so.
Every writer, no matter wherethey are in their journey, has
(16:08):
strong instincts.
Even if you don't believe thisabout yourself yet.
Sometimes you can revise morethan one element per pass.
Other times you might want toconcentrate on one of these
broad categories.
For example, plot, right?
Plot can take multiple revisionpasses to really nail everything
down, especially if you'reworking with multiple points of
(16:29):
view, multiple time frames,whatever.
Ideally, your watchword forlinking everything together is A
clear sense of logic.
Your character's choices shouldhave, Logic and emotional truth
behind them, ideally.
Even if the character makes amistake or, Demonstrates a flaw
or a misbelief.
(16:50):
They don't always have to berational, But readers should
know their RATIONALE.
And I owe this turn of phrase tomy best friend Scott.
So he just, like, when he saidthat, it just, love it.
I am so happy to pass it on toyou fine people.
So, readers should usually beable to interpret how their
actions affect their short andlong term objectives and needs.
(17:13):
So, if the character is thinkingcritically and trying to logic
out what they're doing and why,readers are following along.
When external conflict happens,characters should consider a
plot point's ramifications, setnew expectations, identify
stakes for whatever justhappened or for what might
happen.
(17:33):
Interiority, which I don't knowif we mentioned, I wrote a big
ass book about.
It nearly killed me.
Is the access to yourcharacter's inner life and can
convey a lot of logic for yourpoint of view protagonists.
or protagonist.
Readers should be clear on theflow of the plot, which should
only be able to progress in onecause and effect order.
(17:55):
If the events of your plot cango in a dice cup, be shaken
around and still work in adifferent order, your cause and
effect logic is probably not asstrong.
And the world needs to haveconsistent rules and boundaries,
which suggest consequences,ramifications.
to the readers.
If a character does X, readersshould know enough about your
(18:16):
world to expect Y.
For example, you know, spittingin the face of a royal guard or
whatever.
We should know enough about theworld to know just how deeply
screwed your main character isif they make that choice.
(19:17):
And then a couple otherconsiderations were kind of in
the homestretch here, watch yourbalance of action and
information, especially at thebeginning of your story.
I have first pages on the brainthese days, allow characters
some downtime to rep to reset,integrate ramifications and
strategize.
So don't hit readers over andover and over with either too
(19:41):
much action without having thisreset time or too much
information.
Without action.
So you can also speed up infodumps was seen dialogue plot.
If you're working with multipletimelines or perspectives or
whatever, consider making eachthread into its own mini novel.
So point of view a I'm going totake all their chapters.
(20:03):
I'm going to Cut and paste themtogether into its own novel.
And only once I've revised itfor cohesiveness and cause and
effect logic, do I chop themback up again and thread them
into the larger whole.
So you can also kind of makenotes for yourself of any
information or plot that'srevealed between chapters to
(20:23):
help you stay on top of where weare in the larger story.
Then weave the threads backtogether, taking the opportunity
to play with stakes.
And cliffhangers, especially ifyou're working with multiple
perspectives or timelines, likewe leave thread A on a really
tense moment, hopping over tothread B, leave that on a tense
moment, then rejoin thread A toclose the loop.
(20:45):
There are just so many coolthings you can do if you make
some of these more advancedstorytelling choices with
multiple points of view andstuff.
So when you play with suspense,you can track which information
you're revealing when, how itaffects both the reader's
understanding of the story andof And each character's
understanding of the storythey're in as well.
(21:06):
Especially in mystery, thriller,suspense, how you deploy
information, who knows what,what the reader knows.
All of these considerations needto be top of mind.
Key pieces of data often havetheir own arcs because it
matters who learns what andwhen, and whether characters are
in the dark while readers areamassing clues, which is
dramatic irony.
Cause and effect logic is keyhere.
(21:28):
If you are withholdinginformation, make sure it will
blow the story and thecharacter's experience wide
open.
Otherwise why withhold it atall?
These choices should beintentional.
Conversely, I want to cautionyou against starving characters
and plots of information becauseyou're saving up for a big twist
or reveal.
(21:48):
If they have nothing to workwith for the duration of the
plot until the 90 percent mark,and suddenly it's like, Oh my
God, My husband is my sister orwhatever, you know, something,
something crazy.
The, the 80 percent leading upto that is going to be a flat
line.
So my sort of theory about thatis that mysteries work best when
(22:11):
we have.
80 percent but we're missing akey 20 percent that changes
everything, not the other wayaround.
You don't build a novel bygiving away only 20 percent of
the information and expect thecharacter to be able to be
proactive or to make any forwardprogress.
So yeah, too little informationkeeps the character passive and
(22:32):
keeps It's locked into kind of aplateau until you feel like
deploying your mind bendingtwist.
But I would say a lot of readersprobably won't last until that
80 percent mark to have theirminds blown if there's not
enough for characters and forthe plot to do in the
intervening 80%.
And then the boring edit.
(22:54):
So once you've done as muchrevision as you can handle,
address the checklist, put thetranscript away for at least two
weeks.
All that good stuff.
You can reinvigorate yourrevision and the will to go on
living in these late stages withthe magical power of tricking
yourself and delusion.
Try to see your projectobjectively.
Have you enacted your revisionpass?
(23:14):
How has various pieces of thirdparty feedback informed your
work?
Now print out the manuscript ifyou've been working digitally or
go to the screen if you've beenrevising on paper and do a
boring edit.
All you're allowed to do is markin the margins where you find
your own attention drifting.
So you have to be payingattention not only to the story,
but you have to be monitoringyourself and being self aware.
(23:36):
It's kind of like mindfulnessonly hopefully a little bit less
annoying.
No, I'm from California and am afailed mindfulness person.
So I have maybe a bit of a chipon my shoulder.
If you can't, so mark in themargins where you notice that
you're thinking about yourgrocery list, not the project at
(23:57):
hand or the scene at hand or theexchange or whatever, because if
you can't sustain interest inyour own baby, how do you expect
a stranger to become and stayintrigued?
So figure out the issue with thepassages or scenes that you've
marked and make them moreengaging.
You may want to get anotherthird party read at this point,
just to make sure everything iskind of flowing and buttoned up
(24:19):
and revised to the best of yourability.
But the boring edit is a reallyfun exercise, despite its name.
Just to make sure that you areengaging people because that is
the currency of storytelling isreader engagement is emotional
investment.
So once you've done your verybest revision possible.
Put the project away, maybegotten another round of
(24:39):
feedback, you need to decidewhether it's worth another
revision or if you're done.
Of course, manuscript is neverdone until copy edits are turned
in because you'll revise withthe literary agent and
acquisitions editor too.
Now it's time to either submitor self publish, though I
suggest hiring at least aproofreader, if not an outright
copy editor, before you hand thedraft directly over to readers
(25:01):
in the self publishing scenario.
typos and stuff in the commentssorry, in the reviews that your
project is getting.
You might land representation ora book deal, you might sell like
gangbusters if you self publish,or you might do neither of those
things.
So, once you have a big piece offeedback, success or failure in
(25:22):
the larger marketplace, you mustchoose whether to revise again
or start something new.
Some manuscripts are teachers,and that's totally fine.
That is very, very valid.
some manuscripts are not goingto go the distance.
But they each have something toteach us.
They are each important in theirown way.
If you pause or stop on aspecific project, you can always
(25:45):
go back.
The more you write and revise,the more ideas you will have.
It is sort of a self feedingmechanism.
Inspiration attracts moreinspiration.
I fully, firmly believe that.
I don't believe in writer'sblock at all.
Even when I'm feeling frustratedin my own process.
You have zero control over themarket, gatekeepers, trends,
whatever.
You can, however, control yourown efforts to learn, grow,
(26:07):
draft, revise, practice, read,attend conferences, use
educational resources, etc.
The product you're working on isyourself, not any one
manuscript.
It's you, the writer, becausecreative writing is all about
the process.
Not the product.
Even though the product would benice.
David Gwyn (26:26):
Yeah, that was that was amazing.
Mary, that was so much.
There's so much information likepacked with info, which is
awesome.
I feel like I'll be re listeningto this as I'm sure people will
be as well.
the getting used to gettingfeedback thing is is something
that I know some writersstruggle with and it is so true
like you just have to get usedto getting feedback.
You have to figure out what yourprocess is for like, handling
(26:49):
it, getting through it,implementing it and then
becoming a better writer for it.
And I think that that initialgut reaction feeling of like,
how didn't you like it like thatit's valid like have it and then
you know.
don't live in that feeling, youknow, move on from there.
And I think like the cause andeffect piece you mentioned was
huge.
The big revisions to small,I've, I've, especially early on
(27:11):
in my writing, I, I got caughtlike fixing sentences and commas
and periods.
And then I like went back liketwo weeks later and cut that
entire chapter.
I was like, I spent.
Mary Kole (27:20):
It's a moot point.
David Gwyn (27:22):
the rule always is whatever it takes to get the
book done.
That's the rule.
Like it does not matter whatyour process is, what you do,
just get the book done.
And so anything that helps.
So this is great.
Mary, I can't thank you enough.
This, this was awesome.
So if, if anybody has any otherquestions for Mary, you know,
reach out.
Follow her on, on all thesocials.
Mary Kole (27:43):
Thank you guys so much for having me.
Okay, this week we're heading back into the
(00:01):
Storyteller Society vault here.
we have Mary Cole.
And Mary is a former literaryagent who provides consulting
and developmental editingservices to writers of all
categories and genres.
She founded Good Story Companyin 2019 to create valuable
content for writers.
I like the Good Story podcast,YouTube channel, and writing
craft workshop classes andresources.
(00:24):
Mary has presented at hundredsof regional, national, and
international writingconferences and guest lectured
at Harvard, the Ringling Collegeof Art and Design, the
Highlights Foundation, and theLoft.
She also develops unique andcommercial intellectual property
for middle grade, young adult,and adult readers.
With bittersweet books, Mary hasa MFA in creative writing, has
(00:46):
worked at Chronicle Books, theAndrea Brown Literary Agency,
and Movable Type Management.
Her writing reference booksinclude Writing Irresistible
Kidlet, Writing, or sorry,Writing Irresistible Kidlet,
Irresistible Query Letters,Writing irresistible picture
books and writing interiority,crafting irresistible
characters.
And today she is here to talk tous about getting feedback and
(01:08):
revising with it in mind.
And obviously, I mean, I justread her bio.
If there's a person on theplanet who can talk to us about
getting feedback and revisingwith it in mind.
Mary is that person.
Mary Kole (01:19):
Thank you so much for having me.
Hopefully I can give you somefood for thought.
So, we are positioned now at thebeginning of a revision.
When you feel that you are donewith a project, even though most
manuscripts will not have aconcrete end point, so the idea
of done can be a moving target,you will want to approach your
revision.
(01:40):
I strongly discourage you fromstarting a revision when you
just can't, like, bear to lookat it anymore.
You know, that's not a reallygood reason to kind of dive in
and put your craft gloves on.
I would read it through aminimum of once first without
really messing around, withoutsort of sharpening your knives
just yet.
(02:01):
After taking two weeks away fromit minimum between the end of
the drafting phase and startingyour revision to manufacture a
sense of new eyes for yourself,you may be pleasantly surprised
by what you what you've writtenor you might realize that
there's an uphill battle comingfor you.
But one big decision to makeright away.
Will you solicit feedbackearlier in the process or later?
(02:23):
So this is when we talk aboutworkshop.
We maybe even talk aboutbringing a freelance editor on
board.
And I will give you a disclaimerin just a moment, but you can do
that initially to sort of getsome steering, get some
guidance, get some correction orfeedback as you are sort of
(02:44):
wading into your own revision.
You can also bring on a thirdparty set of eyes when you are
finishing your revision.
You feel ready to submit, butyou want to make sure that all
the I's are dotted, T's arecrossed.
So, those are usually the timesthat writers approach me in my
editorial practice, or they seekout a class, a workshop, a
(03:06):
community like this one.
So, both are very valid.
You will probably get differentfeedback and use it differently
if you get feedback earlierversus later.
So that is something else thatwe will talk about.
We often can't see our own workobjectively, and even seasoned
writers use outside advice.
So, this can be accomplished forfree, but it all depends on how
(03:30):
qualified your reader is.
So, one thing that I will sayhere that might be a little
unexpected is that you don'thave to take feedback just
because it exists and it wasgiven to you.
You can actually choose whichfeedback to use and which
feedback may not be as relevantto you.
It does sometimes make sense topay for expert advice,
(03:50):
especially if you're writing ina specialized category where
that editor also has expertise.
Sometimes you'll want more of acasual reaction that Another
writer or somebody who reads alot in your category can give
but not all feedback is createdequal You want that person to at
least be very conversant in yourgenre?
So some feedback you take with agrain of salt.
(04:13):
It really does depend on who isgiving it.
So if the reader is qualified,knows your target audience and
genre, their notes are likely togive you concrete ideas for
revision.
It's your responsibility toaccept or reject feedback and
then to address the problemsOpportunities for growth issues,
observations, whatever in yourown way, because you know the
(04:34):
story best.
So not all feedback is createdequal, as I said, and if you
know you're listening with anopen mind instead of being
defensive or reactive, you cantake the wisdom and leave the
rest.
Of course, if everybody thatever gave you feedback is an
idiot and you've burned throughall of the freelance editors on
Etsy and just nobody gets yourgenius, you might be operating
(04:57):
with some blinders.
you might be you know, in for abit of a rude awakening.
You may not be able to see yourown writing with clear eyes just
yet.
Some writers who are new togetting feedback, they
definitely need to go throughseveral layers of peeling back
biases and preconceived notions.
But if you can check in withyourself and you can say, Hey,
(05:19):
you know, I'm not.
I'm not being reactive, then youcan discard certain pieces of
feedback that don't resonatewith you.
Sometimes you will also hearindirect feedback that something
about the section or part of thestory or element of the story
isn't working, but you won't getprescriptive guidance, or you
will disagree with their versionof The fix.
(05:41):
They're like, Oh my gosh, youneed to smash these two
characters together.
Well, that piece of feedback canlie there on the page and you
can take it literally and dojust that follow through.
But if something about that notedoesn't really resonate with
you, try to zoom out and think,okay, what is.
What is it maybe about thesecharacters that is striking this
(06:05):
person as redundant, perhaps?
Is it that they both sort ofhave the same worldview when it
comes to the theme, and they'resort of displaying one facet of
the theme that I'm working with?
Do they only play one role orvery similar roles for in their
relationship with theprotagonist?
Maybe instead of smashing themtogether, you can tweak one of
(06:27):
the characters.
Or get rid of them altogether,right?
So there are many, many ways toaddress a piece of feedback.
Sometimes the literal feedbackand any suggested fix is just
not going to be what you end updoing.
So that's kind of a critical eyeand a filter that you need to
bring when you get feedback.
So sometimes feedback will alsobe contradictory.
(06:50):
Which is contradictory, which isvery, very frustrating.
So, the clearer your sense ofyour project and your goals and
kind of your mission statement,which we'll talk about before
you move forward with revision,the more you'll be able to parse
through even contradictoryfeedback and make a revision
plan for yourself.
Obviously, this all applies ifyou're getting feedback before
(07:12):
you do your big revisions,right?
So, again, take some time away.
Zoom out and see if the note ishinting at bigger issues that
you can extrapolate from anyfeedback you receive.
If you agree with an identifiedissue, there are multiple ways
to address most craft problems,right?
(07:33):
You don't have to take theoffered solution, so if the note
has to do with slow pacing,there are a number of different
levers that you can pull.
Shorter sentences and snappiersyntax.
At the sentence level, weedingout descriptions, setting
imagery, play by playchoreography of the action at
the paragraph level, maybeshortening individual scenes or
(07:55):
chopping up your chapters orshifting point of views more
frequently.
All of these options andprobably more that I hadn't even
thought of are available to you.
If somebody is like, the pacingis dragging a little bit in this
section, right?
And maybe addressing the pacingin one of these ways lifts that
(08:16):
perception of the overallpacing.
You don't have to do more, ormaybe you might take more than
one of these approaches to getat that issue of the pacing.
So they're yours to use.
You are in the driver's seat.
You can choose how you want toaddress the note, if you do.
To me, there is a differencebetween revision and editing.
(08:37):
The literal definition ofrevision is to see again, and it
is the process of making ideallybig changes to your manuscript
to help it reach its fullpotential and your full
intention for it.
Editing is actually the processof bringing about that revision.
It usually involves at leastseveral passes through the
manuscript, looking for andrevising different things like
(08:59):
plot character, writing style,theme, cohesion, all of these
things that we will talk, touchupon in this presentation.
So when, when you've cleared thehurdle and gotten a literary
agent, gotten a book deal, itreally does take a village to
raise a book.
Your work has a lot of eyes onit.
from professionals, from copyeditors, and that is a very
(09:19):
different discipline fromdevelopmental editing, which is
more kind of structural bigpicture in nature.
I've read some copy editedmanuscripts where I learned so
much for the cop from the copyeditors because they look at
copy the way, the way that Idon't as kind of a more big
picture structural person, butit's very desirable to edit
(09:40):
yourself before you have thebenefit of that vision.
Until your project becomessubmission ready and potentially
more attractive to getting thosegoals.
you want to be showing up withthe strongest possible version
and third party feedback, yourability to revise.
Not just moving commas around,but actually truly reimagine
elements of your story.
(10:02):
If you figure out that they'renot working, those are going to
help differentiate you withreaders.
If you're going direct toreaders or gatekeepers.
So think about what your storyis about at the biggest kind of
top line level.
Think about writing a missionstatement for your project, a
log line, a pitch.
Those words tend to beintimidating.
(10:22):
A sentence or two that captureswhat your story is.
Is what it's about.
Maybe a hint at plot characterand what you want readers to
walk away feeling the coreemotional experience.
So mission statements have athematic component and you
should know your theme even ifyou don't explain or state it
anywhere.
outlines are very helpful beforea project is written to steer
(10:45):
you in the right direction, keepyou focused.
You can also create a reverseoutline after a project is
written to aid in the revisionprocess.
So that looks like maybe a 20page or so document broken up
into chapters that tracks plotdevelopment, character
development over the course ofyour story.
Outlining is especially helpfulwhen you're juggling multiple
(11:05):
points of views and multiplepoints of view and timelines,
maybe different chronologies,maybe you're jumping back and
forth between two threads as weoften do in thriller, mystery
Outlining can really help youkeep track of exactly what is
going on in each thread.
Can also ensure your plottingcharacter are woven together
with cause and effect logic,which is really, really
(11:26):
important to me when it comes torevision, at least, especially
if you're struggling withplotting or your protagonist
character arc feels flat, oryou've been revising forever.
If you still don't have aproject that you're truly happy
with, or if you've never triedit before, outlining will not
bite you.
And are we talking about thesentence level writing yet?
(11:48):
No.
We do broad strokes first ineffective.
Revision, because if you makechanges on the story level, you
will probably have to change thesupporting text itself.
Fiddling around with the writingat this point is working harder,
not smarter.
Even if you, you know, arereally good at moving commas
around.
Remember, that revision is thatbig thing.
picture zoomed out view of yourstory first.
(12:10):
If you are working from anoutline, you don't have to think
so hard about each choice thatyou make.
The thinking, the ideation, thedevelopment of the story is the
hard part.
And once that's over, thewriting part does tend to flow a
little bit more naturally ifyou're working or revising from
an outline.
So it's a lot easier to alsoexperiment with your proposed
(12:32):
revisions.
On an outline, maybe play outwhat you're planning for your
revision in outline format suitfirst and see how it reads, then
just carrying out a revision on350 pages of novel manuscript,
then going back and seeing howit reads.
And maybe you've made a mistakethere.
If you kind of use the outlineas your sandbox for a revision
(12:54):
as well, it can be a really,really powerful tool.
Don't hesitate to share thatoutline with.
And so if you're doing this as apart of your community, your
critique group, as you're doingthe work, instead of always
submitting pages, especially aspeople become more familiar with
your story, you can run this bythem and say, you know, I'm
thinking of combining these twopoints of view or rearranging
(13:14):
the time or the chronology ofthe, this subplot, what do you
think, as they become familiarwith your story, people will be
able to sound off on, you know,outline stuff and, and kind of
this, this dream work andideation if you bring it to
them.
So take notes, be sure to codifyyour revision plan.
I have a space for that in thechecklist I'll send around.
(13:36):
You can depart from yourrevision plan and you probably
will as you get rolling andreally start thinking and things
start gelling in your head.
But it's a lot easier to keep itall in mind, right?
Keep all those plates spinning.
If you do have a plan, a reverseoutline, an outline, whatever,
whatever format you really liketo work with.
(13:59):
If you have sort of figured outwhat your revision is going to
look like, you will be able toenact it more successfully.
So maybe put your missionstatement that you came up with
on a post it, a note card, evenif you think you know what your
book is about.
It's really helpful to write oneanyway and verbalize it.
That helps with developing thequery letter later in the
(14:20):
process.
If you plan on going onsubmission, create an outline,
whether written or done visuallywith cards, codify that revision
plan, then check each storyelement for cohesion.
That means going through youroutline or your visual board.
Chapter by chapter, card bycard, and asking yourself one
question over and over.
(14:41):
Does this plot point, characterdevelopment point, scene, et
cetera, fit my missionstatement?
Does each chapter, scene,conversation, description earn
its keep?
And here's where we start to beruthless because we want to do
revision, not just commarelocation, right?
So if the manuscript doesn'tdeliver on the mission
statement, either change themission statement premise or
(15:04):
change the execution.
So, throughout our combinedcharacters, move plot points
around, slash the whole middle,and start over.
If you know a section isproblematic, even if you don't
know why, tackle it now insteadof waiting for later.
Tackle it while you're stillmoving the big pieces around and
doing that kind of revolutionaryrevision part of the work that's
(15:28):
seeing the story with new eyes.
If a chapter, character, orevent doesn't fit the mission
statement or theme, you have thefollowing choices.
Keep it, if you have a reasonother than just sheer fondness
for that thing.
Put it aside, maybe create aseparate doc if you simply can't
bear deleting it into thin air.
Or put it elsewhere.
(15:48):
Maybe there's a more appropriatelocation for the element that
you're sort of torn about.
You will be compelled to keepproblematic elements, but
someone will likely call you outfor that sooner or later, and
your writing intuition, which isvery powerful, will say, I told
you so.
Every writer, no matter wherethey are in their journey, has
(16:08):
strong instincts.
Even if you don't believe thisabout yourself yet.
Sometimes you can revise morethan one element per pass.
Other times you might want toconcentrate on one of these
broad categories.
For example, plot, right?
Plot can take multiple revisionpasses to really nail everything
down, especially if you'reworking with multiple points of
(16:29):
view, multiple time frames,whatever.
Ideally, your watchword forlinking everything together is A
clear sense of logic.
Your character's choices shouldhave, Logic and emotional truth
behind them, ideally.
Even if the character makes amistake or, Demonstrates a flaw
or a misbelief.
(16:50):
They don't always have to berational, But readers should
know their RATIONALE.
And I owe this turn of phrase tomy best friend Scott.
So he just, like, when he saidthat, it just, love it.
I am so happy to pass it on toyou fine people.
So, readers should usually beable to interpret how their
actions affect their short andlong term objectives and needs.
(17:13):
So, if the character is thinkingcritically and trying to logic
out what they're doing and why,readers are following along.
When external conflict happens,characters should consider a
plot point's ramifications, setnew expectations, identify
stakes for whatever justhappened or for what might
happen.
(17:33):
Interiority, which I don't knowif we mentioned, I wrote a big
ass book about.
It nearly killed me.
Is the access to yourcharacter's inner life and can
convey a lot of logic for yourpoint of view protagonists.
or protagonist.
Readers should be clear on theflow of the plot, which should
only be able to progress in onecause and effect order.
(17:55):
If the events of your plot cango in a dice cup, be shaken
around and still work in adifferent order, your cause and
effect logic is probably not asstrong.
And the world needs to haveconsistent rules and boundaries,
which suggest consequences,ramifications.
to the readers.
If a character does X, readersshould know enough about your
(18:16):
world to expect Y.
For example, you know, spittingin the face of a royal guard or
whatever.
We should know enough about theworld to know just how deeply
screwed your main character isif they make that choice.
(19:17):
And then a couple otherconsiderations were kind of in
the homestretch here, watch yourbalance of action and
information, especially at thebeginning of your story.
I have first pages on the brainthese days, allow characters
some downtime to rep to reset,integrate ramifications and
strategize.
So don't hit readers over andover and over with either too
(19:41):
much action without having thisreset time or too much
information.
Without action.
So you can also speed up infodumps was seen dialogue plot.
If you're working with multipletimelines or perspectives or
whatever, consider making eachthread into its own mini novel.
So point of view a I'm going totake all their chapters.
(20:03):
I'm going to Cut and paste themtogether into its own novel.
And only once I've revised itfor cohesiveness and cause and
effect logic, do I chop themback up again and thread them
into the larger whole.
So you can also kind of makenotes for yourself of any
information or plot that'srevealed between chapters to
(20:23):
help you stay on top of where weare in the larger story.
Then weave the threads backtogether, taking the opportunity
to play with stakes.
And cliffhangers, especially ifyou're working with multiple
perspectives or timelines, likewe leave thread A on a really
tense moment, hopping over tothread B, leave that on a tense
moment, then rejoin thread A toclose the loop.
(20:45):
There are just so many coolthings you can do if you make
some of these more advancedstorytelling choices with
multiple points of view andstuff.
So when you play with suspense,you can track which information
you're revealing when, how itaffects both the reader's
understanding of the story andof And each character's
understanding of the storythey're in as well.
(21:06):
Especially in mystery, thriller,suspense, how you deploy
information, who knows what,what the reader knows.
All of these considerations needto be top of mind.
Key pieces of data often havetheir own arcs because it
matters who learns what andwhen, and whether characters are
in the dark while readers areamassing clues, which is
dramatic irony.
Cause and effect logic is keyhere.
(21:28):
If you are withholdinginformation, make sure it will
blow the story and thecharacter's experience wide
open.
Otherwise why withhold it atall?
These choices should beintentional.
Conversely, I want to cautionyou against starving characters
and plots of information becauseyou're saving up for a big twist
or reveal.
(21:48):
If they have nothing to workwith for the duration of the
plot until the 90 percent mark,and suddenly it's like, Oh my
God, My husband is my sister orwhatever, you know, something,
something crazy.
The, the 80 percent leading upto that is going to be a flat
line.
So my sort of theory about thatis that mysteries work best when
(22:11):
we have.
80 percent but we're missing akey 20 percent that changes
everything, not the other wayaround.
You don't build a novel bygiving away only 20 percent of
the information and expect thecharacter to be able to be
proactive or to make any forwardprogress.
So yeah, too little informationkeeps the character passive and
(22:32):
keeps It's locked into kind of aplateau until you feel like
deploying your mind bendingtwist.
But I would say a lot of readersprobably won't last until that
80 percent mark to have theirminds blown if there's not
enough for characters and forthe plot to do in the
intervening 80%.
And then the boring edit.
(22:54):
So once you've done as muchrevision as you can handle,
address the checklist, put thetranscript away for at least two
weeks.
All that good stuff.
You can reinvigorate yourrevision and the will to go on
living in these late stages withthe magical power of tricking
yourself and delusion.
Try to see your projectobjectively.
Have you enacted your revisionpass?
(23:14):
How has various pieces of thirdparty feedback informed your
work?
Now print out the manuscript ifyou've been working digitally or
go to the screen if you've beenrevising on paper and do a
boring edit.
All you're allowed to do is markin the margins where you find
your own attention drifting.
So you have to be payingattention not only to the story,
but you have to be monitoringyourself and being self aware.
(23:36):
It's kind of like mindfulnessonly hopefully a little bit less
annoying.
No, I'm from California and am afailed mindfulness person.
So I have maybe a bit of a chipon my shoulder.
If you can't, so mark in themargins where you notice that
you're thinking about yourgrocery list, not the project at
(23:57):
hand or the scene at hand or theexchange or whatever, because if
you can't sustain interest inyour own baby, how do you expect
a stranger to become and stayintrigued?
So figure out the issue with thepassages or scenes that you've
marked and make them moreengaging.
You may want to get anotherthird party read at this point,
just to make sure everything iskind of flowing and buttoned up
(24:19):
and revised to the best of yourability.
But the boring edit is a reallyfun exercise, despite its name.
Just to make sure that you areengaging people because that is
the currency of storytelling isreader engagement is emotional
investment.
So once you've done your verybest revision possible.
Put the project away, maybegotten another round of
(24:39):
feedback, you need to decidewhether it's worth another
revision or if you're done.
Of course, manuscript is neverdone until copy edits are turned
in because you'll revise withthe literary agent and
acquisitions editor too.
Now it's time to either submitor self publish, though I
suggest hiring at least aproofreader, if not an outright
copy editor, before you hand thedraft directly over to readers
(25:01):
in the self publishing scenario.
typos and stuff in the commentssorry, in the reviews that your
project is getting.
You might land representation ora book deal, you might sell like
gangbusters if you self publish,or you might do neither of those
things.
So, once you have a big piece offeedback, success or failure in
(25:22):
the larger marketplace, you mustchoose whether to revise again
or start something new.
Some manuscripts are teachers,and that's totally fine.
That is very, very valid.
some manuscripts are not goingto go the distance.
But they each have something toteach us.
They are each important in theirown way.
If you pause or stop on aspecific project, you can always
(25:45):
go back.
The more you write and revise,the more ideas you will have.
It is sort of a self feedingmechanism.
Inspiration attracts moreinspiration.
I fully, firmly believe that.
I don't believe in writer'sblock at all.
Even when I'm feeling frustratedin my own process.
You have zero control over themarket, gatekeepers, trends,
whatever.
You can, however, control yourown efforts to learn, grow,
(26:07):
draft, revise, practice, read,attend conferences, use
educational resources, etc.
The product you're working on isyourself, not any one
manuscript.
It's you, the writer, becausecreative writing is all about
the process.
Not the product.
Even though the product would benice.
David Gwyn (26:26):
Yeah, that was that was amazing.
Mary, that was so much.
There's so much information likepacked with info, which is
awesome.
I feel like I'll be re listeningto this as I'm sure people will
be as well.
the getting used to gettingfeedback thing is is something
that I know some writersstruggle with and it is so true
like you just have to get usedto getting feedback.
You have to figure out what yourprocess is for like, handling
(26:49):
it, getting through it,implementing it and then
becoming a better writer for it.
And I think that that initialgut reaction feeling of like,
how didn't you like it like thatit's valid like have it and then
you know.
don't live in that feeling, youknow, move on from there.
And I think like the cause andeffect piece you mentioned was
huge.
The big revisions to small,I've, I've, especially early on
(27:11):
in my writing, I, I got caughtlike fixing sentences and commas
and periods.
And then I like went back liketwo weeks later and cut that
entire chapter.
I was like, I spent.
Mary Kole (27:20):
It's a moot point.
David Gwyn (27:22):
the rule always is whatever it takes to get the
book done.
That's the rule.
Like it does not matter whatyour process is, what you do,
just get the book done.
And so anything that helps.
So this is great.
Mary, I can't thank you enough.
This, this was awesome.
So if, if anybody has any otherquestions for Mary, you know,
reach out.
Follow her on, on all thesocials.
Mary Kole (27:43):
Thank you guys so much for having me.
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The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.