April 9, 2025 • 21 mins
Find out more about Douglas Corleone
This interview is with Douglas Corleone, author of the new thriller "Falls to Pieces."
In this episode, Douglas shares essential thriller writing techniques that have helped him successfully navigate multiple sub-genres, from legal thrillers to psychological suspense.
Learn practical writing tips for incorporating meaningful themes into commercial fiction and discover how to push genre boundaries while still meeting reader expectations.
- How to identify and skillfully navigate the boundaries between thriller sub-genres to create distinctive fiction that still satisfies reader expectations
- Techniques for incorporating meaningful personal themes into commercial thriller writing, particularly when handling sensitive or challenging subject matter
- Strategies for crafting memorable twist endings that readers won't forget, avoiding the common pitfall of formulaic conclusions that fail to leave a lasting impression
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Douglas Corleone (00:00):
I think that genres are evolving more and
(00:04):
more are meshing together.
More themes are being related.
David Gwyn (00:09):
Welcome to Thriller 1 0 1, where we dive deep into
the craft of writing, withtoday's most compelling authors.
I'm your host, David Gwyn, andin today's episode we're joined
by Douglas Corleone, author ofThe New Psychological Thriller,
falls to Pieces.
He's here to explore theevolving landscape of thrillers,
sub-genres, and how to navigatethem effectively as a writer.
If you've ever struggled withwhere your manuscript fits in
(00:31):
the marketplace, or wondered howto stand out in a crowded genre
while still meeting readerexpectations, and this
conversation is gonna help youout, doug shares how he
successfully moved betweensub-genres while maintaining his
unique voice and themes.
You're gonna learn how toapproach themes in your fiction
that resonate with readers whyrunning to the quote unquote
(00:52):
edge of the boundaries in yourgenre can make your work more
distinctive.
And the importance of deliveringunexpected endings that stick
with readers long after theyfinish your book.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst thriller or looking to
evolve your writing in a newdirection.
Doug's insights here will helpyou navigate genre expectations
while creating work.
That stands out.
Alright, let's get into it.
(01:14):
Doug, thanks so much for beinghere.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to chat with us on the
Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast.
Douglas Corleone (01:19):
Thank you for.
David Gwyn (01:20):
Yeah.
I'm really excited to chat withyou.
I, I think it's gonna be reallyinteresting and, and something
that.
I've been thinking about and,and writers that I know have
been, have been thinking aboutwhich is like genres and sub
genres within the thrillerspace.
And I know you have a ton ofexperience there, so I'm really
excited to dig in there.
But before we do, I wanna saycongratulations'cause falls to
pieces will be out by the timepeople hear this.
And I always like to, I'm like,from the future here, telling
(01:43):
you congratulations in your bookis not quite out yet.
So that's super exciting,
Douglas Corleone (01:47):
Thank you very much.
I appreciate that.
David Gwyn (01:49):
Yeah.
And so can you tell us a littlebit about what this story's
about?
Douglas Corleone (01:52):
Yeah.
I, when I wrote foster pieces, Iset out to write a book about a
rocky mother-daughterrelationship.
You know, the, the influencesthat were on my mind at the time
William Landes, defending Jacob.
I actually, I got a terrificblurb from William and, laura
Dave's the last thing he toldme, which was about a mother and
(02:15):
stepdaughter relationship andKim Kimberly Mccress
reconstructing Amelia.
And I kind of wanted to, youknow, write about a teenager
'cause they're probably theleast understood.
We all go through our teenageryears, we suddenly look back at
them and say, Hey, what's wrongwith these teenagers?
And you know, I tried to youknow, demonstrate a little bit
(02:39):
about.
What is wrong with some of theteenagers?
You know, what they go throughhow strong their feelings are,
how much they have to keep quietbefore they really come into
them, their selves.
They're really just, you know,parts of their parents until
they develop a personality oftheir own.
(03:00):
And it's a very challenging timefor them and.
You know, I always hear howchallenging it is for the
parents and I, and I don't hearas much sympathy for the kids.
And I remember being 17, Iremember being 15, and I had a
tough time back then, and I, youknow, I, I acted out in ways I,
(03:23):
you know, I wish I didn't,obviously 30 some odd years
later.
But I still remember thingsviscerally and you know, and I,
I also, I have complex PTSD andfrom early childhood trauma.
And so this is an importantissue to me.
I began my legal career.
Back when I was 17 and still inhigh school, I was an intern at
(03:46):
the Sex Crimes Unit of theMorris County Prosecutor's
Office.
And one of my main jobs wastranscribing interviews of, you
know different subjects and it,it, it was just horrifying.
And what got to me most wasthat.
(04:06):
People don't only not understandhow, you know, how ubiquitous
this is, they don't even knowwhen it's happening in their own
house.
And to me, that's one of thebiggest concerns and one of the
biggest ways that we might beable to change is, of course,
you know, these, these are,these are difficult subjects.
(04:29):
But when we close our ears tothem, you know.
Other people suffer.
Children suffer and.
It's really a type of, you know,it often becomes generational
trauma.
You know, one parent, you know,is abused and winds up abusing
their child.
Maybe, maybe subconsciously,maybe not.
(04:53):
You know victims of trauma havea lot of anger and when that
comes out to a child, it's veryscary.
You know.
They're, they're helpless,especially if you know, the
abuser is their caregiver.
David Gwyn (05:07):
Hmm.
Yeah, no, thank you for sharingthat.
I, I think I always, I alwayslove to hear authors talk.
About the themes that are intheir book.
I think a lot of writers and youknow, there's a podcast where a
lot of people listen becausethey're writers.
They, they often think aboutplot, they think about
character, they think about, youknow, are the twists of my
thriller, you know, strongenough and, and all these
(05:29):
things.
And it's not that those thingsaren't important, but I, I
always find when I talk towriters, and one of the first
things they gravitate towards isthe theme of what they're
writing.
I almost always find that theirbooks are the ones that really
do well.
They're the ones who findreaders.
They're the ones who make animpact in, in this industry that
is, you know, it's crowded, it'sa crowded, it's a crowded
(05:49):
profession, and I always findthat.
And so I always love hearing youknow, writers like yourself,
talking about themes.
And is that something that youset out to write in this story,
or is that something that youlike found along the way as you
were writing?
Like, did you marry these ideas,like plot character with, with
this theme, or was this like.
Hey, I'm starting with this ideaof theme.
How do I weave the plot aroundit?
Douglas Corleone (06:10):
No, definitely.
It's actually a large theme in alot of my books.
In different ways.
Sometimes the heroes sufferedthe trauma, sometimes another
character.
For instance, I wrote a seriesof.
Legal thrillers in which adefense attorney named Kevin
Corelli moved from Manhattan toHonolulu to practice law to
(06:31):
escape a terrible event thathappened back in back in New
York.
And you know, he would helppeople and they happen to be,
you know, not only criminaldefendants, but victims of other
things, you know, victims oftrauma.
So really in, in, in essence,I've been right in psychological
(06:51):
thrillers, you know, for thepast 20 years.
But they all look different.
One of them, you know, one ofthem's packaged that was Robert
Ludlums, the Janssen Equation.
But it very much goes into, howPaul Jansen, who is a Jason
Bourne like character you know,he try, how, how he sees himself
(07:12):
versus how his partner JessicaKincaid sees him.
And, you know, at one point hequestions whether he's a monster
and so, so.
Even my espionage novel, youknow, goes pretty deep into the
psyche.
And then I had a series that wasvery important to me.
The Simon Fisk thrillers andthey were about a former US
(07:36):
Marshal who rescues children.
Who were brought overseasagainst US custody auditors.
And you know, he had trauma inhis history.
His daughter had been taken 10years earlier, so he was very
passionate about it.
And, you know, so they, theywere driven a lot more by,
action movies like Taken andthe, the transporter.
(08:00):
But I go very deeply into thepsychological aspects of losing
a child and, you know and a lotof it's difficult and some
people read to escape and Iunderstand that.
I don't know if you know, but,falls to pieces is a first reads
this month and so there's a lotof reviews up already.
(08:22):
There's over, yeah, there's over1100 reviews already, and so far
it's been, it's been prettypolarizing.
People either love it or hateit,
David Gwyn (08:30):
but I bet you love that as a writer, don't you?
Like that's, I feel like that insome ways is a, is a good sign.
You know that people are gonnareally love it and maybe it's
not for everybody, but that'sokay.
'cause the people who like itare gonna love
Douglas Corleone (08:40):
Yeah, the, the problem is you know, when your
ratings do go down, people,people start to, to, to avoid
it.
And and, and, and that makes mesad.
So I.
I'm hoping that it does balanceout the fact that there's a
little controversy behind it.
Just because I think it's animportant book and I, I, I'd
really like to get it in as manyhands as possible.
(09:03):
And you know, and I, I, I thinkit's worth the six to eight
hours it takes to read.
David Gwyn (09:09):
Yeah.
Cool.
So tell me, so you, you've kindof outlined a lot of the fun
writing stuff that you'vewritten in the past and, and I'm
curious what's in the future foryou?
How much can you tell us about,you know, what's coming up for
you?
Either what you're working onnow, or, or, you know, maybe
something that's a littlefurther along in the process.
Douglas Corleone (09:25):
about to start editing my next novel with
Thomas and Mercer.
It's called Live Through Thisand it's set on a rural college
campus in in.
Eastern Pennsylvania which iswhere I went for two of my four
years of college.
Freshman and junior.
Being from New Jersey, I lovedit out there.
(09:46):
It was, you know, it was atotally different atmosphere.
It was, for me, it was thegrunge era.
So, you know, I got to walkaround in my flannels and
Timberlands and, and my dirtyfootball cap and so the book it
takes place on the collegecampus and the main character
Greg Dryer is going tohomecoming after 30 years.
(10:08):
But he has an agenda.
He's he wants to know whathappened to, he had a girlfriend
for just three weeks to, youknow, after freshman
orientation.
And what she is to him, it's,it's his first love.
Even though the relationshipdidn't last long, 30 years
later, he's still thinking abouther and there's a question as to
(10:30):
whether she committed suicide orwhether she was pushed off the
roof of of the, of the dormbuilding.
And he goes and investigates andyou know, tries to find some
answers and also some redemptionbecause at the time his life is
spiraling downward.
David Gwyn (10:50):
Okay.
I wanna pause here for just asecond because I wanna point out
how clearly Doug is able toexplain his book.
That clear pitch and premise isso valuable if you can't do that
with the work that you're on.
You really have to start ironingthat out.
Take a little bit of time andorganize your thoughts so that
you can get your pitch down to30 seconds or less.
I mean, tell us about thecharacter, the setting, the
(11:13):
conflict, the stakes, and thenend with that slight cliffhanger
and that way it'll be wrapped upin a nice, neat little bow that
agents and readers will love inthe next section of the text,
Doug and I talk about sub-genresand he provides some really
interesting insights that youare going to love about how he
thinks about creating differentstories.
Alright, let's get back into it.
(11:34):
I wanna shift gears a little bitand just talk about, actually,
it's kind of something thatwe've been talking about, which
is the sub genres that you'vebeen doing.
You've kind of been withinThriller, but now bouncing
around from one sub genre to thenext here.
And, and so I'm really curiousabout how you navigate this.
Like are you thinking at allabout sub genres or are you
really just like, you follow thestory where it goes, and if it's
(11:56):
a lawyer who's doing it, it'slegal, and if it's not, like
how, how are you navigatingthose as you kind of take on new
projects?
Douglas Corleone (12:03):
I kind of you know, I, when I started writing,
I started writing legalthrillers because I was a
lawyer.
I was a criminal defense lawyerin Manhattan.
Who moved to Honolulu because ofan event.
It wasn't a professional eventlike it is for Kevin Corelli.
But there was an event.
And so I, you know, they say,write what, you know.
(12:24):
I literally wrote what I know.
You know, people thought I wasKevin Corelli, you know, the, my
agent was calling me Kevin, and.
No, don't mix me up because theguy, you know, don't get, don't
get me wrong.
The guy's a good guy, but he's,you know, he's got his own way
of doing things and he might beconsidered an anti-hero by some
(12:44):
and he's a criminal defenseattorney, so automatically
suspect.
So you know, I did theautobiographical thing and and
then I kind of the series didwell critically, but not
commercially.
And my editor really likedworking with me and she said,
we'd love to see something newfrom you.
(13:06):
And so I, I was actually inConnecticut working on a federal
case at the time.
I was kind of dabbling in thelaw while, you know, while,
while still while writing.
And I had read this one pagearticle about this private
investigator who, who travels toforeign countries and.
(13:28):
Brings these kids back toAmerica.
You know, if you know, ifthere's a child custody order
that's per say even,'cause evenFrance, they don't automatically
enforce child, US child custodyorders.
So you know.
He always did these parentalabductions, but he gets arrested
(13:50):
in France and winds up.
This is my character, SimonFisk.
Winds up you know.
Basically give an ultimatumspend years in a French prison,
or help us find this Americangirl who went missing from her
parents' hotel room in Paris.
And he want, and this is all,you know, it came from one
article about one privateinvestigator who actually does
(14:13):
this kind of work and.
I, yeah, I, I did four books onSimon Fisk and, you know, he
travels a lot through WesternEurope.
In the second book payoff, hetravels through Latin America.
And I.
And in the fourth book, heactually travels to Africa.
So it was really, I I, I got toexperience a lot of the world
(14:37):
through him.
And and, and a lot of the, thedifferent forms of government
and you know, how things workand some of the, some of the
plots are, are complex, but.
They're straightforward and youknow, it's to me he's good is
Gone, which was the first bookIs, is, is my favorite book that
I wrote up until Fall to Pieces.
(14:58):
So.
David Gwyn (14:58):
Oh wow.
Wow.
And so tell me a little bitabout when you're, when you're
taking on these diff differentsub genres within Thriller, how
are you thinking about.
Meeting reader expectations,right?
Because there's a certainexpectation within these
sub-genres, but also creatingyour own twist on it.
Like how, how are you navigatingthat?
Like, how closely are youthinking about, or how much are
(15:21):
you thinking about, hey, what areader expects versus how I'm
gonna do something different.
So my book stands out.
Douglas Corleone (15:27):
Yeah, I try not to pay too much attention to
the boundaries.
I know where they are.
I think that's sufficient.
You know, if you're running downthe sideline and you know, you
might step out of bounds.
You wanna play it as close asyou can because that's you know,
that's you'll, you'll getfarther.
And so that's what I kind of do.
I kind of run along the edge ofthe boundaries.
(15:50):
And, you know, sometimes I mightstep out of bounds and usually
when I do my editor or my.
Pull me back in.
But yeah, it's gonna happen.
And I, I think, yeah, I, I thinkthat genres are evolving more
and more are meshing together.
More themes are being related.
(16:11):
What I really like now forinstance, I got a.
Wonderful blurb from Riley Sagerwho writes you know, kind of
these, this horror mixed withpsychological thrillers.
So I, I, I call it psychologicalhorror, I guess.
And that's another area that Iam you know, I, I've been
writing in and I've been workingon a couple different projects,
(16:32):
so.
David Gwyn (16:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very cool.
I feel like I talk to a lot ofwriters.
I talk to a lot of unpublishedwriters and, and obviously
authors as yourself.
And it is interesting because alot of writers are, you know,
they're, they're worried aboutstaying in the middle of the
field, and I love that idea thatyou're saying like, no, no,
like, like go to the boundaryand maybe, you know, in your
first novel, you, you don't golike you, you make sure you
(16:54):
don't step over.
But on later ones like.
There are people who are gonnaput the guardrails for you.
You know, you're gonna have aneditor, you're gonna have an
agent who are gonna say like,ah, you know what, bring you
back a little bit.
But I do like that advice forpeople to, to remember, like,
you have to, you can't just rundown the middle of the field or
your book's gonna sound likeevery other book that's out
there.
You have to, you have to go tothe
Douglas Corleone (17:12):
Because I, I, you know, obviously I'm a big
reader.
You know, I, I try to read atleast a hundred novels a year
and you know, and I like to readin all different genres, but you
know, particularly psychologicaldrillers recently and domestic
drillers, and I think somehow.
Those two domestic thrillers andpsychological thrillers.
(17:34):
While some books are both, likefor instance, on girl is really
both a lot of these domesticthrillers are called
psychological thrillers and theybarely touch the surface.
And and a lot of them just, I, Ican remember the premise.
The premise is great, the hookis great, and then.
(17:55):
It goes in the direction youabsolutely know it's gonna go
and you wind up forgetting whatthe ending was.
And to me, if you forget whatthe ending is, that's, that's,
that's not the sign of a greatnovel.
Like I can remember con, youknow, you know, I, I don't know
if I, if there's still spoileralerts about Gone Girl.
David Gwyn (18:17):
I think it's passed.
It's passed.
You're outta, you're outta that.
Douglas Corleone (18:19):
The fact she was pregnant, you know, blew me
away.
And it's something you know,that, that stayed with me.
And I do like to give that finaltwist at the end of a book.
You know, that makes a readerturn their head and, you know,
some, some.
Online critics, you know some,some reviewers get upset and
(18:40):
say, yeah, oh, that'sfarfetched.
This is a and you know, I kindof feel like you know, if they
knew, you know, it's'cause it'sev it's about everybody else's
world experience.
And some people live a verysheltered experience and you
know, I don't know who's luckierto be honest.
You know, I've, I've, I'vetraveled the world and I've,
(19:02):
I've, I, I've, I've been througha lot and so I, I have a lot of
this knowledge that I'd probablyrather not have.
And then I meet people, youknow, for instance, source here.
It's their first time off themainland and, and you know,
they've been very sheltered and,and, you know, I, I try to
connect with them and you know,it's just you know, trying to
(19:25):
find a balance.
David Gwyn (19:28):
Doug, this has been so much fun.
I have really enjoyed thisconversation.
This has been really great.
My last question for you is justwhere can people find you?
Where can people look you up?
Douglas (19:36):
Www.douglascorleone.com is my website.
As humble as it is.
And of course you can find mybooks on Amazon.
They're also in Barnes and Nobleon Barnes and Noble's website.
And yeah, I'm just aboutanywhere else.
If they Google falls to piecesand Douglas Corleone, they'll
(19:57):
find it.
David Gwyn (19:58):
Nice.
Great.
So I'll, I'll link to some ofthat stuff in the description
for this episode.
So people are listening can havequick access.
Doug, like I said, this was somuch fun.
I really time to chat.
Douglas Corleone (20:06):
Same here.
Thanks so much, Dave.
David Gwyn (20:09):
Okay, and that's it.
I was particularly struck byDoug's approach to genre
boundaries, how he likes to stayat the far edge of whatever they
are, but still in bounds.
This perspective is reallyimportant for us as writers to
think about so that we'recreating fresh, distinctive work
that still satisfies readerexpectations.
On today's episode, we learnedthat the most memorable
(20:29):
thrillers often blend sub-genresand incorporate meaningful
themes that resonate withreaders on a deeper level.
We talked about how Doug weavespersonal experiences and
important themes and intocommercially viable fiction.
And why creating endings thatreaders won't forget is really
important to standing out intoday's crowded market.
so here's your writing challengefor this week.
Take a scene from your currentmanuscript and purposefully push
(20:52):
it to the boundary or to theedge of whatever genre you're
working in.
If you're writing a legalthriller, maybe incorporate
elements of psychologicalsuspense if you're crafting a
domestic thriller experimentwith horror elements.
The goal isn't to give up orabandon your genre entirely, but
rather to find out where theedge of your work becomes
uniquely yours.
Thanks for hanging out with me.
(21:13):
Please rate, review, andsubscribe wherever you listen to
your podcasts.
And as always, remember to keepwriting because publishing
success happens for the writerswho don't give up.
I'll see you next week.
I think that genres are evolving more and
(00:04):
more are meshing together.
More themes are being related.
David Gwyn (00:09):
Welcome to Thriller 1 0 1, where we dive deep into
the craft of writing, withtoday's most compelling authors.
I'm your host, David Gwyn, andin today's episode we're joined
by Douglas Corleone, author ofThe New Psychological Thriller,
falls to Pieces.
He's here to explore theevolving landscape of thrillers,
sub-genres, and how to navigatethem effectively as a writer.
If you've ever struggled withwhere your manuscript fits in
(00:31):
the marketplace, or wondered howto stand out in a crowded genre
while still meeting readerexpectations, and this
conversation is gonna help youout, doug shares how he
successfully moved betweensub-genres while maintaining his
unique voice and themes.
You're gonna learn how toapproach themes in your fiction
that resonate with readers whyrunning to the quote unquote
(00:52):
edge of the boundaries in yourgenre can make your work more
distinctive.
And the importance of deliveringunexpected endings that stick
with readers long after theyfinish your book.
Whether you're crafting yourfirst thriller or looking to
evolve your writing in a newdirection.
Doug's insights here will helpyou navigate genre expectations
while creating work.
That stands out.
Alright, let's get into it.
(01:14):
Doug, thanks so much for beinghere.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to chat with us on the
Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast.
Douglas Corleone (01:19):
Thank you for.
David Gwyn (01:20):
Yeah.
I'm really excited to chat withyou.
I, I think it's gonna be reallyinteresting and, and something
that.
I've been thinking about and,and writers that I know have
been, have been thinking aboutwhich is like genres and sub
genres within the thrillerspace.
And I know you have a ton ofexperience there, so I'm really
excited to dig in there.
But before we do, I wanna saycongratulations'cause falls to
pieces will be out by the timepeople hear this.
And I always like to, I'm like,from the future here, telling
(01:43):
you congratulations in your bookis not quite out yet.
So that's super exciting,
Douglas Corleone (01:47):
Thank you very much.
I appreciate that.
David Gwyn (01:49):
Yeah.
And so can you tell us a littlebit about what this story's
about?
Douglas Corleone (01:52):
Yeah.
I, when I wrote foster pieces, Iset out to write a book about a
rocky mother-daughterrelationship.
You know, the, the influencesthat were on my mind at the time
William Landes, defending Jacob.
I actually, I got a terrificblurb from William and, laura
Dave's the last thing he toldme, which was about a mother and
(02:15):
stepdaughter relationship andKim Kimberly Mccress
reconstructing Amelia.
And I kind of wanted to, youknow, write about a teenager
'cause they're probably theleast understood.
We all go through our teenageryears, we suddenly look back at
them and say, Hey, what's wrongwith these teenagers?
And you know, I tried to youknow, demonstrate a little bit
(02:39):
about.
What is wrong with some of theteenagers?
You know, what they go throughhow strong their feelings are,
how much they have to keep quietbefore they really come into
them, their selves.
They're really just, you know,parts of their parents until
they develop a personality oftheir own.
(03:00):
And it's a very challenging timefor them and.
You know, I always hear howchallenging it is for the
parents and I, and I don't hearas much sympathy for the kids.
And I remember being 17, Iremember being 15, and I had a
tough time back then, and I, youknow, I, I acted out in ways I,
(03:23):
you know, I wish I didn't,obviously 30 some odd years
later.
But I still remember thingsviscerally and you know, and I,
I also, I have complex PTSD andfrom early childhood trauma.
And so this is an importantissue to me.
I began my legal career.
Back when I was 17 and still inhigh school, I was an intern at
(03:46):
the Sex Crimes Unit of theMorris County Prosecutor's
Office.
And one of my main jobs wastranscribing interviews of, you
know different subjects and it,it, it was just horrifying.
And what got to me most wasthat.
(04:06):
People don't only not understandhow, you know, how ubiquitous
this is, they don't even knowwhen it's happening in their own
house.
And to me, that's one of thebiggest concerns and one of the
biggest ways that we might beable to change is, of course,
you know, these, these are,these are difficult subjects.
(04:29):
But when we close our ears tothem, you know.
Other people suffer.
Children suffer and.
It's really a type of, you know,it often becomes generational
trauma.
You know, one parent, you know,is abused and winds up abusing
their child.
Maybe, maybe subconsciously,maybe not.
(04:53):
You know victims of trauma havea lot of anger and when that
comes out to a child, it's veryscary.
You know.
They're, they're helpless,especially if you know, the
abuser is their caregiver.
David Gwyn (05:07):
Hmm.
Yeah, no, thank you for sharingthat.
I, I think I always, I alwayslove to hear authors talk.
About the themes that are intheir book.
I think a lot of writers and youknow, there's a podcast where a
lot of people listen becausethey're writers.
They, they often think aboutplot, they think about
character, they think about, youknow, are the twists of my
thriller, you know, strongenough and, and all these
(05:29):
things.
And it's not that those thingsaren't important, but I, I
always find when I talk towriters, and one of the first
things they gravitate towards isthe theme of what they're
writing.
I almost always find that theirbooks are the ones that really
do well.
They're the ones who findreaders.
They're the ones who make animpact in, in this industry that
is, you know, it's crowded, it'sa crowded, it's a crowded
(05:49):
profession, and I always findthat.
And so I always love hearing youknow, writers like yourself,
talking about themes.
And is that something that youset out to write in this story,
or is that something that youlike found along the way as you
were writing?
Like, did you marry these ideas,like plot character with, with
this theme, or was this like.
Hey, I'm starting with this ideaof theme.
How do I weave the plot aroundit?
Douglas Corleone (06:10):
No, definitely.
It's actually a large theme in alot of my books.
In different ways.
Sometimes the heroes sufferedthe trauma, sometimes another
character.
For instance, I wrote a seriesof.
Legal thrillers in which adefense attorney named Kevin
Corelli moved from Manhattan toHonolulu to practice law to
(06:31):
escape a terrible event thathappened back in back in New
York.
And you know, he would helppeople and they happen to be,
you know, not only criminaldefendants, but victims of other
things, you know, victims oftrauma.
So really in, in, in essence,I've been right in psychological
(06:51):
thrillers, you know, for thepast 20 years.
But they all look different.
One of them, you know, one ofthem's packaged that was Robert
Ludlums, the Janssen Equation.
But it very much goes into, howPaul Jansen, who is a Jason
Bourne like character you know,he try, how, how he sees himself
(07:12):
versus how his partner JessicaKincaid sees him.
And, you know, at one point hequestions whether he's a monster
and so, so.
Even my espionage novel, youknow, goes pretty deep into the
psyche.
And then I had a series that wasvery important to me.
The Simon Fisk thrillers andthey were about a former US
(07:36):
Marshal who rescues children.
Who were brought overseasagainst US custody auditors.
And you know, he had trauma inhis history.
His daughter had been taken 10years earlier, so he was very
passionate about it.
And, you know, so they, theywere driven a lot more by,
action movies like Taken andthe, the transporter.
(08:00):
But I go very deeply into thepsychological aspects of losing
a child and, you know and a lotof it's difficult and some
people read to escape and Iunderstand that.
I don't know if you know, but,falls to pieces is a first reads
this month and so there's a lotof reviews up already.
(08:22):
There's over, yeah, there's over1100 reviews already, and so far
it's been, it's been prettypolarizing.
People either love it or hateit,
David Gwyn (08:30):
but I bet you love that as a writer, don't you?
Like that's, I feel like that insome ways is a, is a good sign.
You know that people are gonnareally love it and maybe it's
not for everybody, but that'sokay.
'cause the people who like itare gonna love
Douglas Corleone (08:40):
Yeah, the, the problem is you know, when your
ratings do go down, people,people start to, to, to avoid
it.
And and, and, and that makes mesad.
So I.
I'm hoping that it does balanceout the fact that there's a
little controversy behind it.
Just because I think it's animportant book and I, I, I'd
really like to get it in as manyhands as possible.
(09:03):
And you know, and I, I, I thinkit's worth the six to eight
hours it takes to read.
David Gwyn (09:09):
Yeah.
Cool.
So tell me, so you, you've kindof outlined a lot of the fun
writing stuff that you'vewritten in the past and, and I'm
curious what's in the future foryou?
How much can you tell us about,you know, what's coming up for
you?
Either what you're working onnow, or, or, you know, maybe
something that's a littlefurther along in the process.
Douglas Corleone (09:25):
about to start editing my next novel with
Thomas and Mercer.
It's called Live Through Thisand it's set on a rural college
campus in in.
Eastern Pennsylvania which iswhere I went for two of my four
years of college.
Freshman and junior.
Being from New Jersey, I lovedit out there.
(09:46):
It was, you know, it was atotally different atmosphere.
It was, for me, it was thegrunge era.
So, you know, I got to walkaround in my flannels and
Timberlands and, and my dirtyfootball cap and so the book it
takes place on the collegecampus and the main character
Greg Dryer is going tohomecoming after 30 years.
(10:08):
But he has an agenda.
He's he wants to know whathappened to, he had a girlfriend
for just three weeks to, youknow, after freshman
orientation.
And what she is to him, it's,it's his first love.
Even though the relationshipdidn't last long, 30 years
later, he's still thinking abouther and there's a question as to
(10:30):
whether she committed suicide orwhether she was pushed off the
roof of of the, of the dormbuilding.
And he goes and investigates andyou know, tries to find some
answers and also some redemptionbecause at the time his life is
spiraling downward.
David Gwyn (10:50):
Okay.
I wanna pause here for just asecond because I wanna point out
how clearly Doug is able toexplain his book.
That clear pitch and premise isso valuable if you can't do that
with the work that you're on.
You really have to start ironingthat out.
Take a little bit of time andorganize your thoughts so that
you can get your pitch down to30 seconds or less.
I mean, tell us about thecharacter, the setting, the
(11:13):
conflict, the stakes, and thenend with that slight cliffhanger
and that way it'll be wrapped upin a nice, neat little bow that
agents and readers will love inthe next section of the text,
Doug and I talk about sub-genresand he provides some really
interesting insights that youare going to love about how he
thinks about creating differentstories.
Alright, let's get back into it.
(11:34):
I wanna shift gears a little bitand just talk about, actually,
it's kind of something thatwe've been talking about, which
is the sub genres that you'vebeen doing.
You've kind of been withinThriller, but now bouncing
around from one sub genre to thenext here.
And, and so I'm really curiousabout how you navigate this.
Like are you thinking at allabout sub genres or are you
really just like, you follow thestory where it goes, and if it's
(11:56):
a lawyer who's doing it, it'slegal, and if it's not, like
how, how are you navigatingthose as you kind of take on new
projects?
Douglas Corleone (12:03):
I kind of you know, I, when I started writing,
I started writing legalthrillers because I was a
lawyer.
I was a criminal defense lawyerin Manhattan.
Who moved to Honolulu because ofan event.
It wasn't a professional eventlike it is for Kevin Corelli.
But there was an event.
And so I, you know, they say,write what, you know.
(12:24):
I literally wrote what I know.
You know, people thought I wasKevin Corelli, you know, the, my
agent was calling me Kevin, and.
No, don't mix me up because theguy, you know, don't get, don't
get me wrong.
The guy's a good guy, but he's,you know, he's got his own way
of doing things and he might beconsidered an anti-hero by some
(12:44):
and he's a criminal defenseattorney, so automatically
suspect.
So you know, I did theautobiographical thing and and
then I kind of the series didwell critically, but not
commercially.
And my editor really likedworking with me and she said,
we'd love to see something newfrom you.
(13:06):
And so I, I was actually inConnecticut working on a federal
case at the time.
I was kind of dabbling in thelaw while, you know, while,
while still while writing.
And I had read this one pagearticle about this private
investigator who, who travels toforeign countries and.
(13:28):
Brings these kids back toAmerica.
You know, if you know, ifthere's a child custody order
that's per say even,'cause evenFrance, they don't automatically
enforce child, US child custodyorders.
So you know.
He always did these parentalabductions, but he gets arrested
(13:50):
in France and winds up.
This is my character, SimonFisk.
Winds up you know.
Basically give an ultimatumspend years in a French prison,
or help us find this Americangirl who went missing from her
parents' hotel room in Paris.
And he want, and this is all,you know, it came from one
article about one privateinvestigator who actually does
(14:13):
this kind of work and.
I, yeah, I, I did four books onSimon Fisk and, you know, he
travels a lot through WesternEurope.
In the second book payoff, hetravels through Latin America.
And I.
And in the fourth book, heactually travels to Africa.
So it was really, I I, I got toexperience a lot of the world
(14:37):
through him.
And and, and a lot of the, thedifferent forms of government
and you know, how things workand some of the, some of the
plots are, are complex, but.
They're straightforward and youknow, it's to me he's good is
Gone, which was the first bookIs, is, is my favorite book that
I wrote up until Fall to Pieces.
(14:58):
So.
David Gwyn (14:58):
Oh wow.
Wow.
And so tell me a little bitabout when you're, when you're
taking on these diff differentsub genres within Thriller, how
are you thinking about.
Meeting reader expectations,right?
Because there's a certainexpectation within these
sub-genres, but also creatingyour own twist on it.
Like how, how are you navigatingthat?
Like, how closely are youthinking about, or how much are
(15:21):
you thinking about, hey, what areader expects versus how I'm
gonna do something different.
So my book stands out.
Douglas Corleone (15:27):
Yeah, I try not to pay too much attention to
the boundaries.
I know where they are.
I think that's sufficient.
You know, if you're running downthe sideline and you know, you
might step out of bounds.
You wanna play it as close asyou can because that's you know,
that's you'll, you'll getfarther.
And so that's what I kind of do.
I kind of run along the edge ofthe boundaries.
(15:50):
And, you know, sometimes I mightstep out of bounds and usually
when I do my editor or my.
Pull me back in.
But yeah, it's gonna happen.
And I, I think, yeah, I, I thinkthat genres are evolving more
and more are meshing together.
More themes are being related.
(16:11):
What I really like now forinstance, I got a.
Wonderful blurb from Riley Sagerwho writes you know, kind of
these, this horror mixed withpsychological thrillers.
So I, I, I call it psychologicalhorror, I guess.
And that's another area that Iam you know, I, I've been
writing in and I've been workingon a couple different projects,
(16:32):
so.
David Gwyn (16:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very cool.
I feel like I talk to a lot ofwriters.
I talk to a lot of unpublishedwriters and, and obviously
authors as yourself.
And it is interesting because alot of writers are, you know,
they're, they're worried aboutstaying in the middle of the
field, and I love that idea thatyou're saying like, no, no,
like, like go to the boundaryand maybe, you know, in your
first novel, you, you don't golike you, you make sure you
(16:54):
don't step over.
But on later ones like.
There are people who are gonnaput the guardrails for you.
You know, you're gonna have aneditor, you're gonna have an
agent who are gonna say like,ah, you know what, bring you
back a little bit.
But I do like that advice forpeople to, to remember, like,
you have to, you can't just rundown the middle of the field or
your book's gonna sound likeevery other book that's out
there.
You have to, you have to go tothe
Douglas Corleone (17:12):
Because I, I, you know, obviously I'm a big
reader.
You know, I, I try to read atleast a hundred novels a year
and you know, and I like to readin all different genres, but you
know, particularly psychologicaldrillers recently and domestic
drillers, and I think somehow.
Those two domestic thrillers andpsychological thrillers.
(17:34):
While some books are both, likefor instance, on girl is really
both a lot of these domesticthrillers are called
psychological thrillers and theybarely touch the surface.
And and a lot of them just, I, Ican remember the premise.
The premise is great, the hookis great, and then.
(17:55):
It goes in the direction youabsolutely know it's gonna go
and you wind up forgetting whatthe ending was.
And to me, if you forget whatthe ending is, that's, that's,
that's not the sign of a greatnovel.
Like I can remember con, youknow, you know, I, I don't know
if I, if there's still spoileralerts about Gone Girl.
David Gwyn (18:17):
I think it's passed.
It's passed.
You're outta, you're outta that.
Douglas Corleone (18:19):
The fact she was pregnant, you know, blew me
away.
And it's something you know,that, that stayed with me.
And I do like to give that finaltwist at the end of a book.
You know, that makes a readerturn their head and, you know,
some, some.
Online critics, you know some,some reviewers get upset and
(18:40):
say, yeah, oh, that'sfarfetched.
This is a and you know, I kindof feel like you know, if they
knew, you know, it's'cause it'sev it's about everybody else's
world experience.
And some people live a verysheltered experience and you
know, I don't know who's luckierto be honest.
You know, I've, I've, I'vetraveled the world and I've,
(19:02):
I've, I, I've, I've been througha lot and so I, I have a lot of
this knowledge that I'd probablyrather not have.
And then I meet people, youknow, for instance, source here.
It's their first time off themainland and, and you know,
they've been very sheltered and,and, you know, I, I try to
connect with them and you know,it's just you know, trying to
(19:25):
find a balance.
David Gwyn (19:28):
Doug, this has been so much fun.
I have really enjoyed thisconversation.
This has been really great.
My last question for you is justwhere can people find you?
Where can people look you up?
Douglas (19:36):
Www.douglascorleone.com is my website.
As humble as it is.
And of course you can find mybooks on Amazon.
They're also in Barnes and Nobleon Barnes and Noble's website.
And yeah, I'm just aboutanywhere else.
If they Google falls to piecesand Douglas Corleone, they'll
(19:57):
find it.
David Gwyn (19:58):
Nice.
Great.
So I'll, I'll link to some ofthat stuff in the description
for this episode.
So people are listening can havequick access.
Doug, like I said, this was somuch fun.
I really time to chat.
Douglas Corleone (20:06):
Same here.
Thanks so much, Dave.
David Gwyn (20:09):
Okay, and that's it.
I was particularly struck byDoug's approach to genre
boundaries, how he likes to stayat the far edge of whatever they
are, but still in bounds.
This perspective is reallyimportant for us as writers to
think about so that we'recreating fresh, distinctive work
that still satisfies readerexpectations.
On today's episode, we learnedthat the most memorable
(20:29):
thrillers often blend sub-genresand incorporate meaningful
themes that resonate withreaders on a deeper level.
We talked about how Doug weavespersonal experiences and
important themes and intocommercially viable fiction.
And why creating endings thatreaders won't forget is really
important to standing out intoday's crowded market.
so here's your writing challengefor this week.
Take a scene from your currentmanuscript and purposefully push
(20:52):
it to the boundary or to theedge of whatever genre you're
working in.
If you're writing a legalthriller, maybe incorporate
elements of psychologicalsuspense if you're crafting a
domestic thriller experimentwith horror elements.
The goal isn't to give up orabandon your genre entirely, but
rather to find out where theedge of your work becomes
uniquely yours.
Thanks for hanging out with me.
(21:13):
Please rate, review, andsubscribe wherever you listen to
your podcasts.
And as always, remember to keepwriting because publishing
success happens for the writerswho don't give up.
I'll see you next week.
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