October 22, 2025 • 31 mins
New York Times bestselling author Chevy Stevens pulls back the curtain on what separates a good thriller from an unforgettable one.
And it might not be what you think.
In this episode, Chevy reveals her unconventional process for crafting antagonists that readers love to hate.
She also shares the exact mindset shift that helped her sustain an eight-book career.
If you are...
- struggling to create believable villains
- feeling stuck in your thriller's plot
- wondering how to build a lasting writing career in today's market
This conversation will give you the tools to break through.
What Listeners Will Learn:
• How to create antagonists that traditional publishers love
• The "enough juice" test for evaluating thriller concepts
• Why your second book matters more than your first
Connect with Chevy:
Chevy Stevens lives on Vancouver Island with her husband and daughter. When she isn’t working on her next book, she’s spending time with her family and their two dogs. Her books, including Still Missing, a New York Times bestseller and winner of the International Thriller Writers Award for Best First Novel, have been published in more than thirty countries.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Gwyn (00:00):
today I'm Thriller 1 0 1.
(00:01):
I'm joined by Chevy Stevens, theNew York Times bestselling
author whose latest novel theHitchhiker takes readers on a
fun maybe not fun for hercharacters, but certainly fun
for readers.
Ride across 1970s Canada.
Chevy and I are gonna talk aboutwriting.
How she creates her antagonistsand how she writes these quality
plots and twists that have madereaders fall in love with her
(00:22):
characters and her story.
So Chevy, thanks so much forbeing on the Thriller 1 0 1
Podcast.
Chevy Stevens (00:27):
For having me.
David Gwyn (00:28):
Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you.
So for people who are listening,why don't you give them a quick
overview on what the Hitchhikersis about?
Chevy Stevens (00:35):
Oh, you just did a great description, but I, I
like to shorten it to, it's ahome invasion on wheels.
That sort of sets it up quitenicely, but it is about a couple
in 1970s, 1976, who decide to goon a road trip to escape from,
you know, some struggles intheir life.
And, I put them through so muchthat by the time they're
(00:57):
finished, they'll probably won'tever get in an RV again.
So that's, it's, it's, I wantedto do more of the, you know, the
closed room sort of thrillers,
David Gwyn (01:07):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (01:07):
that's where this one went.
It's the different type.
It's not a who done it, youknow, it's very much a, who's
going to win or who, who's gonnastand at the end of this?
David Gwyn (01:17):
Yeah, I love that.
So tell me a little bit aboutwhere this story came from.
I mean, why, why an rv, why1970s?
Like what, what,
Chevy Stevens (01:23):
Sure.
David Gwyn (01:24):
here?
Talk through that.
Chevy Stevens (01:25):
I wish that a book just landed right in my
brain, like fully formed, likeknowing everything.
I seem to be, unfortunately, Ihave to do a lot of trial and
error before I, I kind of getwhat feels right.
The, the initial little germ ofthis one was in a dream.
Sometimes I do a lot ofbrainstorming when I can you
know, that hazy period rightbefore you go to sleep or a nap,
(01:49):
I just empty my mind and I justlet it go and it follows like
weird little channels.
But this one in particular, I'dwent to bed thinking I really
need a book idea.
And then this colonel came andit was just an image of a, like
an RV careening around corners.
And it had a flash of like whatit would be like if, like, you
(02:09):
know this person who's abductedyou and you see them like, take
your husband outside or likejust that feeling of being
overtaken and you're not justovertaken and they literally
have wheels and a kitchen.
Like they can, they're good.
You know, they, they can go allkinds of places and they got
meals, you know,
David Gwyn (02:29):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (02:30):
for them.
And I'm like, man, I don't, Idon't know if anyone's ever done
that.
And so it just progressed.
It wasn't initially said in theseventies.
David Gwyn (02:38):
Okay.
Chevy Stevens (02:39):
my main character, I wanted her to have
a love of nostalgia and vintageAirstreams.
'cause I was going through avintage Airstream.
Can't go buy a vintageAirstream, so I'm gonna give my
character one.
But I was running into, theproblem with many authors
nowadays do is that ourtechnology is making it harder
to get away with stuff.
This is great for cops, bad forcriminals, and bad for authors.
(03:03):
So unless you're, you know, ankind of author who is actually
writing about the tech industry.
David Gwyn (03:07):
Right.
Chevy Stevens (03:08):
But in my case, I'm like, everyone's got cell
phones.
Every gas station has stuff, youknow, it would've been on TikTok
within an 10 minutes.
Somebody would've been in theback doing a TikTok dance.
and I found myself.
It felt familiar.
'cause I had just done a bookwhere somebody just, I had to
explain why they couldn't usetheir phone, why they couldn't
get to a phone, why they, oh no.
(03:29):
I dropped a call.
So I was like, man, this sucks.
I don't like this.
And so I just pitched it to myeditor.
I said, do you mind if I setthis like in the seventies?
And just felt like it would giveit a cool vibe.
And she was like, yeah, totally.
Go for it.
And I picked 1976 because thatwas the Montreal Olympics, so I
could cement it into aparticular time.
David Gwyn (03:49):
Yeah.
Nice.
Chevy Stevens (03:50):
It gave them a reason.
It gave like a purpose, it gavea flavor.
'cause of course, Canada wasvery excited about the Olympics
and so it just gave a whole tonethat I could give.
And I like the seventies.
The seventies is like just sucha.
Just such a cool time.
David Gwyn (04:07):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (04:07):
mean, I was a kid in it, but like it is retro.
It's retro for me too, and Ijust, I thought it was fun and I
don't know why, but thecharacters seem, people, they
seem sexier back then, you know?
I don't know.
It's just like, it just has thatvibe.
I do, you know, QuentinTarantino Once Upon a Hollywood,
David Gwyn (04:26):
Yeah,
Chevy Stevens (04:26):
you know, that seventies vibe in the beginning.
I'm like, I wanna live in thatworld in a book.
And so I did.
Yeah.
David Gwyn (04:32):
cool.
That's awesome.
And so you're, you're kind ofgoing to the, the place I wanted
to go next, which is, which isyour character.
So
Chevy Stevens (04:38):
Yep.
David Gwyn (04:38):
these really.
Complex antagonists.
And, and I'm curious, how do yougo about creating an antagonist
so
Chevy Stevens (04:45):
Mm-hmm.
David Gwyn (04:46):
me through that process.
What, do they come fully formed?
Are they a process as you go?
What, what does that
Chevy Stevens (04:51):
Wouldn't that be nice?
No.
Usually I start with the premiseand then it's figuring out you
know, you have to have the badperson.
I, I find my books tend to begood if I ha I have to have a
character that will pushingagainst, they might not be the
ultimate bad guy, but we do needto know who we're supposed to be
(05:12):
afraid of.
David Gwyn (05:13):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (05:14):
you know, mysteries tend to be more, you,
you know, you, you have yourkiller in the boardroom and then
there's 10 people and we'refiguring out who did it,
David Gwyn (05:22):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (05:23):
and I just, I don't know.
It doesn't, I run outta steam orI'm just not good at that.
David Gwyn (05:28):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (05:28):
I do better with 10 people in the room and one
has a knife
David Gwyn (05:32):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (05:33):
We don't want that guy to get us, but is he
the actual knife killer thatworks better for me?
And, and it just makes it moreof exciting to read.
So, but in this case and I liketo think I'm getting better at
this every time, but I reallydon't know if I am is if I've
picked the wrong, bad person.
I won't be able to get it goingand, and it will just stall over
(05:55):
and over.
And I'm like, why am I runningoutta steam?
Why am I running outta steam?
And in this case Simon wasinitially one of the narrators
and I can't have somebodynarrate if we don't.
He was supposed to be moresympathetic
David Gwyn (06:13):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (06:14):
and or then start getting not so sympathetic.
But we can't be in the head ofthat person if we're supposed to
kind of like them,
David Gwyn (06:21):
Mm-hmm.
Chevy Stevens (06:22):
because if we trust them or we like them, then
we don't think they can be doingthe bad things.
And boy, are they not scaryanymore?
David Gwyn (06:29):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (06:30):
Like, oh, I know he hasn't, but he's not really
like that.
David Gwyn (06:33):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (06:34):
Like he's just had a bad childhood,
David Gwyn (06:37):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (06:38):
so.
I do have to, and, and everythriller writer fights this and
you know, you can re-review.
Some people are like, oh, I wishI had more backstory.
I wish I knew more about thepeople.
And then other people are like,ah, I didn't need all that
backstory.
So it's tough.
You do have to.
Enough that you know why thisperson is doing this thing,
David Gwyn (06:58):
Mm-hmm.
Chevy Stevens (06:59):
but not go into it too much because ah, many
people do not care.
The reality is, is half thispeople can be just evil'cause
they're freaking evil, you know?
But in books we wantjustification for why not just
they felt like it,
David Gwyn (07:12):
Yeah,
Chevy Stevens (07:12):
but I don't, that is a reality.
So I try to walk that line of, Ilike.
I mean, it depends on the book.
In this one, because it wasnonstop action we didn't really
need to see a ton of his before.
There's a glimmer of it.
I wanted to just create more ofthat image of somebody who.
(07:33):
They get drunk on power in asense.
David Gwyn (07:35):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (07:36):
that happens, you know, somebody who's never done
anything in their entire life,they just go from one to like 60
'cause they can, and it's like,wow, nobody's stopping me.
This is awesome.
David Gwyn (07:47):
Mm-hmm.
Chevy Stevens (07:47):
so that sort of went with him.
And then then yeah, and just,it's sort of like, you know,
it's a pressure cooker.
And anything in life, you seewhat people are really made of
when push comes to shove, right?
There'll be ones that you neverthought would be aggressive,
that stand out to be, you know.
The toughies and there's theones that you think are gonna be
assertive that might crumble inthe corner.
(08:08):
And so when you put them allliterally in a, you know, a
moving can, you, you see likeAlice, she rose to the occasion
that be the, the wife, the, theother narrator.
So it's told between her andJenny who, that's the younger
couple and the older couple.
Simon is my bad guy, and he isJenny's boyfriend, the older
(08:29):
boyfriend And the thing I triedto keep in mind is that he, in
his mind, everything he did hawas justified.
He, he didn't just ma like justhurt people willy-nilly.
He definitely took more pleasurein it than he probably should
have, but in his mind, they werenecessary.
(08:50):
And so that was his code.
So if I have a bad person.
Bad character antagonist.
I try to ha, they have a code,they have a reason in their
mind, it does have to bejustified.
So that's how I try to keep thisstraight line
David Gwyn (09:06):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (09:06):
their, what they would and what they wouldn't,
and that's or why.
And then you can get different.
Well, if they feel this way,then they're gonna feel this way
about that and that and that andthat.
So more usually motivation.
It always comes down tomotivation.
Why are they doing it?
David Gwyn (09:22):
Yeah.
I love that a lot of, a lot ofthriller writers listen to this
podcast, and so I'm sure they'rerunning the check in their mind,
like, does my antagonist have areason behind what,
Chevy Stevens (09:32):
Right.
David Gwyn (09:33):
doing?
Because it is, it's soimportant.
Chevy Stevens (09:35):
Mm-hmm.
David Gwyn (09:35):
because without it, the story, it just doesn't feel
real.
So
Chevy Stevens (09:39):
And sometimes it can be as simple as they like
it,
David Gwyn (09:42):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (09:42):
then you ha, I mean, there are very bad people
who do very bad things becauseto them it's just awesome.
David Gwyn (09:48):
Yep.
Chevy Stevens (09:48):
then you gotta keep with that.
Okay, cool.
I've got like this dude.
And he just really loves doingbad things.
Like even Dexter had a code.
David Gwyn (09:56):
So let's talk about the other side of this a little
bit, and
Chevy Stevens (09:58):
Sure.
David Gwyn (09:58):
Alice here.
So you are, you, you have thesecharacters where you put them in
difficult situations, and Ithink one of the things that I
think you do really well is you.
Building the kind of emotionalconnection with readers early
with your, with your protagonistand, and with your main
characters here.
So can you talk us through thatprocess a little bit?
Like what are you thinking aboutbefore you kind of put your
(10:19):
characters into these reallydifficult situations?
We need as readers, we need tocare about
Chevy Stevens (10:25):
Mm-hmm.
David Gwyn (10:26):
so, so what does that look like for you?
Do you think about that at all?
How do you navigate that?
Chevy Stevens (11:16):
I do, I don't know if I logically think in my
head, how are we gonna careabout them?
I'm probably thinking, how can Icare about them?
David Gwyn (11:25):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (11:26):
And then if I am interested or have sympathy for
this person, or wanna see thisperson succeed or deal with what
they're dealing with, or I'mempathetic to their struggle,
then usually the reader will aswell.
So I.
I doubt I could write a bookabout a really horrible person
unless there was a reason Iactually really liked that
person and wanted him to redeemhimself or something.
(11:47):
Something, something else.
So it's more, I'm probablypicking the narrator or the
character that I care about.
They do evolve and they get morewell-rounded.
David Gwyn (11:55):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (11:56):
I think for me, if they're currently undergoing
something emotional that they'rehaving to work through, heal
from deal with.
Then, then they are like, Iguess more of a raw person.
They're raw and then they havemore emotion.
And if they're having morefeeling, I can, I can feel that
(12:17):
through them.
So yeah they, I think usually Iwould say almost every one of my
characters is currently in themidst.
Of having like I don't thinkI've ever started a character
where things are just awesome.
David Gwyn (12:30):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (12:31):
If it were, it was page one
David Gwyn (12:32):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (12:33):
and it changed my page two very swiftly.
David Gwyn (12:37):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (12:38):
I don't think I've ever done one where they're
all like, boy, this is a greatday.
You know, it's usually if I do,it's because I actually have
given them a prologue and thenwe're gonna go back.
David Gwyn (12:48):
Well,
Chevy Stevens (12:48):
So I think that's it.
David Gwyn (12:50):
As a, as a thriller writer, there's a
Chevy Stevens (12:51):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (12:52):
for readers,
Chevy Stevens (12:53):
Yes.
David Gwyn (12:54):
a certain things that you have to, to meet.
Chevy Stevens (12:56):
it's getting harder for thriller writers, I
think.
I mean, maybe this is a storyof, you know, as old as time,
but you know, they getfrustrated with tropes.
Readers do, but there's only somany we can do.
We, you know, we try to come atit as fresh.
If you're curve or your twist istoo far out of left field, and
people are like, what the hell?
(13:17):
When did, why did that?
Character come on to the stage,you know?
But if it's so it's walk of thatline of making it feel fresh.
But man, there are so manyamazing thriller writers these
days.
This is hard.
David Gwyn (13:30):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (13:31):
know, we gotta give those readers to give us a
little grace.
We're trying.
David Gwyn (13:35):
Right.
So, so tell me a little bitabout how then your plot and
characters come together.
So, we've talked a little bitabout plot, we talked a little
bit about
Chevy Stevens (13:43):
Sure.
David Gwyn (13:43):
Are these things happening simultaneously?
Is this just kind of happeningorganically?
Like what are you thinking aboutwhen you're.
Building a plot for a characterand a character for a plot.
Like where do these thingsalign?
Chevy Stevens (13:55):
You know, and again, it's evolution.
Each one's been slightlydifferent.
You know, still missing was awhat if.
And I heard one character and Iheard her speak very clearly in
my mind, and she was talkingabout everything that happened
to her.
I had very clear certain thingsthat I knew happened and then I
was just writing, trying to getto those things.
David Gwyn (14:13):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (14:13):
As you move on, you start realizing that's not
necessarily how our all they'regonna do, because that was a
book idea that came to me.
Whereas now being a professionalthriller writer, I am mining for
ideas.
So it's different.
You know, I have to, I might.
Have a list of different ideasthat intrigue me or a true crime
case that I thought wasinteresting or wild or
(14:35):
something.
And I'll make a list of them.
But all good ideas are notbooks, right?
David Gwyn (14:40):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (14:41):
So then I will do the test of, do I think there's
gonna be enough juice?
You know, like it's like I canhave a cool.
Sort of idea, but then what doesthe book like?
Like what is actually making upthe 400 pages?
David Gwyn (14:56):
Hm.
Chevy Stevens (14:57):
You know, is it gonna be just somebody sneaking
around going, oh no, they gotme.
Like, so you have to have thebulk.
What are these people doing?
And so I guess for me it'sstarts with a kernel of a
concept maybe.
And then I start trying to workit to see.
Will this have enough tension?
(15:18):
That's the main thing.
Will I be able to get somesuspense and tension here?
And then it's who is best totell that story?
Like which character?
Like for my last one, I didn'tdo an.
I tried not to keep my pattern,one chapter for her, one chapter
for the other, because I find ifyou do that, you end up trying
(15:39):
to fill someone's chapter ifthey're not actually doing
anything exciting.
David Gwyn (15:43):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (15:43):
my thing for that book was whoever had the, the
who was having the really shittytime, they got the chapter, you
know, whoever was torturedenough or whoever was gonna go
do something interesting
David Gwyn (15:57):
Yeah,
Chevy Stevens (15:58):
or scary, they got the chapter.
David Gwyn (16:01):
yeah.
Chevy Stevens (16:01):
And so that's just how I flowed, you know?
And then I had to weave in somebackstory later on too.
So then it was like, how do youput that in there?
It's, you know, big puzzles.
The one I am working on now ismy ninth novel.
This one, again, the premisestarted with a drifty little
daydream.
(16:22):
And then it evolved because thenI talk to my editor, I go, I'll
send her a list, and then Ialways put the one I like a
little higher up on the list.
And then if she says, I likethis one, this one or this one,
I'll go, yeah, those are, Imean, those are good, but did
you see that one right there?
I think I could do somethingwith that one.
And then we usually have severaltalks.
David Gwyn (16:41):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (16:42):
often I get off the phone feeling like, totally
pumped up.
Yeah, super exciting.
But then I put it through my ownmental, I don't know, like
filter, like, will it have this?
Mm, but what about this?
And then when I start gettingdoubts, I, I try to pay
attention.
You know, earlier in my career Imight have just overwrote it
(17:02):
because we're all a little inlove with our editors, like
worship.
Love, mentor, fear, love
David Gwyn (17:11):
All the emotions.
Chevy Stevens (17:12):
all of it.
And so if they think something'sa really good idea, a fa, it can
actually be really hard to walkaway from it or to, to veer
because all we heard is that'swhat they want us to do.
Okay, we'll do you know?
And then after a while you'relike, oh, but you know, she was
really excited about the idea,but I don't know if that's
working.
And so I've come to learn.
(17:32):
They're just brainstorming withyou,
David Gwyn (17:34):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (17:35):
and she is more than okay with me telling her,
you know what?
I actually think that's fallingapart.
What if I do?
Am I like this, this, this, andthis?
You know, they're justspitballing and trying to help
you.
In no way in form is she saying,you have to do it this way, but
it can lock in her head, and Ican spend six months trying to
make that damn thing workwithout going, Ugh.
So I'm, I'm trying over andover.
(17:56):
To really get more solid aboutwhat it is that works for me,
what it is I want to do in thisone.
Because I think for me as awriter to feel fresh, I like to
have a new challenge, whether itbe writing a his in the past,
that was new for me.
That book was the first one Ialso wrote in full third person.
Close third.
(18:17):
I was always a first personwriter.
I didn't even know I could writein third.
David Gwyn (18:21):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (18:21):
it wasn't until dark Roads when my editor asked
me to put one of the charactersin third that I was like, huh.
It felt weird at first, youknow, like driving on the wrong
side of the road.
Every once in a while I wouldtoss in an eye'cause I'd forget.
But now I love third,
David Gwyn (18:37):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (18:37):
I'm like, how did I ever do the other thing?
So, so this one is third,
David Gwyn (18:42):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (18:43):
I find I've now, so I've come, I cannot plot out
an entire book.
David Gwyn (18:48):
Okay.
Chevy Stevens (18:49):
have bulks of things.
I have I'll start getting imagesand scenes.
I will be more about.
Which characters want what?
And then a scene will startmorphing out of that.
But it's like Legos, like, sothe one I'm working on right
now, it, Cantonese is a dream.
(19:09):
It was a woman who she's beinghaunted by her husband's dead
mistress.
That he, he didn't know.
She doesn't know he's havingmistress.
But it evolved because theproblem with that is, you know,
is it the waitress or is it thewife?
And so I'll try it, I'll try itmany ways.
I will rewrite a first chapterseveral times until I just know
(19:32):
it's got the bite.
So then I know who's who istelling it, and I'll pitch it to
my editor and she said, I thinkthe, you know, it should be in
first person.
I didn't really like it infirst, so I sent her it first
and then in third.
And she said, you know what,these are actually so close.
Do whatever you want.
And I'm like, third, it is.
So, so it's kind of like, Iguess it's like soup.
(19:53):
I know I wanna make a chickensoup.
I saw, I, you know, I've had agood idea.
I've been craving chicken soup,but then I wanna do a chicken
soup that nobody else has done achicken soup and I wanna make a
chicken soup.
That I haven't done before,
David Gwyn (20:06):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (20:07):
I wanna experiment with some different
spices and then maybe there's alittle too much to that one, but
not enough this one.
But, so for this book, I've beenworking harder on getting all my
ingredients, but I don't knowthe mix yet
David Gwyn (20:19):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (20:20):
or what's gonna go in first, second, third, I
know, but I would say this oneis the first one I've crafted
that has layers.
So it's not just a all the waythrough.
David Gwyn (20:31):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (20:32):
So I've been enjoying that.
It's like weaving little,probably like Taylor Swift feels
with her little Easter eggs thatshe leaves everywhere.
David Gwyn (20:38):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (20:39):
like smugly sowing the seeds for the little
trips along the way.
So we'll see.
Hopefully it works.
Hopefully I'm not giving anotherinterview in three go going.
Okay, so that did not work.
David Gwyn (20:50):
that one
Chevy Stevens (20:51):
Don't do that one.
Yeah, that could happen.
David Gwyn (20:54):
that.
I, I, it's funny.
Yeah.
I haven't mentioned, I've talkedto a lot of,
Chevy Stevens (20:57):
Yeah.
Sure.
David Gwyn (20:58):
and there, I'm, I always love the metaphors that
people have for their writingand like.
I can totally envision you likestanding at like a counter with
all of your ingredients, tryingto figure out what goes in
first,
Chevy Stevens (21:09):
Right.
Celery.
No.
Too crunchy.
Too crunchy, right?
David Gwyn (21:13):
So you, you touched on your career a little bit and
I,
Chevy Stevens (21:15):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (21:16):
to hear you talk a little bit more about that.
'cause I, I'm, I'm, you know,you've obviously built this
really impressive.
Of writing career.
And so I'm curious about kind ofjust the lessons you've learned
about sustaining a career,writing thrillers kind of from,
from still missing your, your,your debut novel all the way
till now.
You've, it sounds like you'reworking on your ninth novel.
Chevy Stevens (21:34):
Mm-hmm.
David Gwyn (21:35):
just kind of advice for people who are out there
thinking about having a writingcareer, especially in
Chevy Stevens (21:39):
Sure.
David Gwyn (21:40):
what, what kind of advice do you have for people?
Chevy Stevens (21:42):
I think the main advice is that there's no cookie
cutter.
Like almost every writer youtalk to is gonna have had a
different process, differentchallenges that they faced.
There's some that are lucky,right?
Not lucky.
Maybe just win right out thegate and keep winning.
Yay for them.
I don't like those ones.
I'm just kidding.
No, there's some that, that'sgood.
(22:03):
There's others who have reallyworked their way up.
And just because somethingwasn't successful right away
doesn't mean it won't be
David Gwyn (22:11):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (22:11):
because there's lots of stories of people who on
their fourth, fifth book, itjust flew.
David Gwyn (22:17):
Mm-hmm.
Chevy Stevens (22:17):
others that a book that was out for a year
just started happening.
So I think there's no one way.
But if there's any consistent,you gotta stay at it.
And now luck, unfortunately, isa part of it.
David Gwyn (22:31):
Mm-hmm.
Chevy Stevens (22:31):
I got a really good agent and I have a really
good editor, and I've been withthe same ones since the
beginning,
David Gwyn (22:36):
Oh, wow.
Chevy Stevens (22:37):
I've been with my agent longer than my husband.
I would say he's my mostlong-term male relationship.
But that's not always the case,and I've been lucky in that and
I know that, you know, I've seenreally talented authors get just
they're get torpedoed and it'sreally sad.
Like it is.
It's a business like any otherbusiness.
But I think you just have tokeep reinventing and keep
(22:58):
trying, keep kicking the kick atthe can.
David Gwyn (23:02):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (23:02):
case, my first book came out and was really
successful, but.
I had never gone to universityor anything.
That was my, I learned on thatbook.
So my personal challenge was Iactually still didn't know how
to write a frigging book.
I learned how to write that one.
David Gwyn (23:17):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (23:17):
so everything I'd learned was about making that
one good, that idea good.
I hadn't yet learned.
Not all ideas are good
David Gwyn (23:25):
Mm-hmm.
Chevy Stevens (23:25):
and what it takes and what I'm best at and what
I'm not good at, and all ofthat, you know?
Go back in time.
Maybe I would do it different.
Who knows?
But.
My first one was massive and Ididn't really enjoy the process
of that one coming out, which Iwish I could have, but I was in
the horrible throes of trying toget your second book
David Gwyn (23:49):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (23:49):
and the pressure of knowing your first one was
amazing, and everybody wants youto have your second amazing.
But we can't all be TaylorSwift's.
You know, some of us are the onehit wonders that, you know, it
just, maybe it never ha andyou're, you're, you're happy it
happened once, but boy, you, youdidn't wanna get off the field
(24:10):
yet.
Right?
So, you know, my second one, Imean, they did well, but they
did not do what the first onedid.
And I feel like I've been slowlykind of getting up there again,
you know, and learning more mycraft and building.
I have done things differentlythan many authors in the fact
that I did not kill myself totry to put out the last two
(24:34):
faster.
David Gwyn (24:36):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (24:36):
They took me a while because they just took me
a while,
David Gwyn (24:39):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (24:40):
also I didn't make it my, I was like, I'm just
going to get it right.
David Gwyn (24:46):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (24:47):
I didn't go, I've got to stay up.
I've gotta, you know, I didn'tthere.
I've seen authors who are reallysuccessful, I would kill for
their back list, let aloneputting out new stuff, and
they're still checkingthemselves into hotels for a
week straight beforehand, tryingto get it finished.
And I'm like, girl, everyonewill wait for you.
David Gwyn (25:08):
Yeah.
Right.
Chevy Stevens (25:08):
You know, and I, I'm, I like, I guess it's a mix
of, you know, pride and feelingof the, they, they, they feel
they have to and or desire, I'msure,
David Gwyn (25:17):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (25:18):
but I have a kid
David Gwyn (25:19):
Mm-hmm.
Chevy Stevens (25:20):
and for the last, you know, eight years, they get
sick.
David Gwyn (25:24):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (25:24):
want you.
I've chosen my family many timesover that now.
I was able to,'cause I'm olderand I was smart with my early
earnings.
I never just blew it all.
And so I could balance, butyeah, if I wrote a book a year
or a book every two year, I'd bemaking shitloads more money.
But I really wanted to just feellike I'm, I gave it my best.
David Gwyn (25:49):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (25:49):
Not everyone else will, might think is my best
'cause everyone likes somethingdifferent.
But I will know that there'sliterally not one word.
I didn't really agonize over,
David Gwyn (26:00):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (26:00):
you know, sink.
That what I gave it, everythingI had at that time.
David Gwyn (26:05):
yeah.
I love that.
I, I work with writers.
I have a community of writersthat I work with.
And I always tell'em, I thinkI'm gonna have to amend this a
little bit.
Now.
I always tell'em, it, it's awriting career is really like a
race to 10 books and to out,like write published, like, and,
and it's because one of thosestatistically is probably gonna
do pretty well, and that willfeed your back list and
Chevy Stevens (26:23):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (26:24):
your other stuff.
But now I think I need to amendthat and be like, it's a race to
10 good books, because 10 badbooks isn't gonna get you
anywhere.
Chevy Stevens (26:32):
It's interesting you say that because I've also
had that thought, like, I've hadthese talks with my husband.
I mean, like, I feel like I'vebeen trying to get the magic of
getting that one big one again.
David Gwyn (26:41):
yeah,
Chevy Stevens (26:41):
know, like trying to get that one that puts you
on, and then it seems like it,you could read anything, write
anything after that, and itseems like they're just like,
oh, it's so and so,
David Gwyn (26:49):
yeah,
Chevy Stevens (26:49):
oh, that it's, it'll be fine.
It's so and so, but.
I have also had that mindset ofmaybe it is a number game.
Maybe this is, you just keepputting them out.
You just gotta keep going.
One of them will eventuallyland,
David Gwyn (27:01):
Yeah,
Chevy Stevens (27:01):
yeah.
Good is important.
'cause as easy, you can alsolose very quickly.
so I don't really know.
If it's 10, that's not good newsfor me'cause I'm on eight.
David Gwyn (27:12):
Hey,
Chevy Stevens (27:12):
Can we revise that?
David Gwyn (27:14):
That's not too bad.
That's not too bad.
Chevy Stevens (27:16):
it, can we say it's eight?
But I will say this is my eighthand it has three starred reviews
right now, which still missinghad four.
David Gwyn (27:26):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (27:27):
And so that.
I've had almost, I think everyone of them has had one star
since then.
But so to my own personal goalis always, of course, to have
reached the success of my firstone.
That's what I want.
I want that again, like, I'm notgonna lie, I want that.
I've, you know, I'm really bigbeliever in manifesting.
(27:47):
So
David Gwyn (27:48):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (27:48):
I will write out success, mission statements that
I want, and, like, I'll call tothe, you know, put it out in the
universe.
I 100% believe in putting outinto the universe.
I do a lot of mental imagery.
David Gwyn (28:00):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (28:01):
Every night before I was going to, you know,
bed after working on this book,I would, I'd have a vision in my
mind, and I would see the book,and I'd see it open, and I would
see gold thread going around it.
And I would pull the gold threadtighter and tighter and tighter
and tighter.
And that was my concept ofhaving the tightest book
possible.
And I just held that image everynight.
(28:21):
So, I don't know.
I'm a little bit, I got a littlebit of the witch in me.
David Gwyn (28:25):
I love that.
I think it's,
Chevy Stevens (28:26):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (28:26):
whatever that The other thing I say to everybody
is it doesn't matter what you doto get the book done as long as
the book gets done.
Chevy Stevens (28:32):
Yes.
David Gwyn (28:33):
sounds like for you, that's the thing that works and
I love that.
I
Chevy Stevens (28:36):
Yeah, the magic and, and you know, we all have
this,
David Gwyn (28:40):
I have like two more questions for
Chevy Stevens (28:41):
Sure,
David Gwyn (28:42):
and then we're on the way out here.
So,
Chevy Stevens (28:43):
sure.
David Gwyn (28:44):
one of my last questions is just,
Chevy Stevens (28:45):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (28:46):
can people find you?
Where can people look you up?
Chevy Stevens (28:48):
I'm again, the anti what we're supposed to be
doing.
I'm not on social medias a muchas I should be.
I'm really trying to leantowards.
One of those authors that's likereally mysterious.
You like, see once every fouryears they,
David Gwyn (29:04):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (29:05):
they come out from the cave.
But I am on Facebook.
I'm probably mostly on Facebook.
I am on TikTok, but that'smostly for my own pleasure.
I don't post much on faceTikTok.
I'm trying to get better at it.
I've spoken a couple podcastsand keep joking and then I'm
waiting until my daughter canstart doing my social media.
David Gwyn (29:22):
Oh yeah
Chevy Stevens (29:22):
that's my ultimate goal.
So far, she doesn't really wannapost about my stuff, but I mean,
I'm trying to tell you, like Itry to tell her, the more
successful I am, the better itis for you.
But Instagram, I'm on Instagram,but I tend to not be on a lot of
social media and tell I'mputting a book out that I'm on
there a lot more.
David Gwyn (29:40):
That makes
Chevy Stevens (29:40):
But Facebook, I do answer my fans, I do
interact, I do try tocommunicate on there.
If nobody's heard me from a lot,it's'cause I'm writing a book.
David Gwyn (29:48):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (29:49):
you know, no news is good news.
But then when I'm out there alot, then I'm more active and I
do try to communicate withpeople
David Gwyn (29:56):
That's awesome.
So this was so much fun.
I, I really enjoyed talking toyou.
I, I feel like we could, wecould chat all day, so,
Chevy Stevens (30:03):
probably.
I told you that's the problem.
Me, me talking is not theproblem.
Me stop talking is the problem.
Because I don't talk.
Well, you know, again, we workin like a whole for a really
long time
David Gwyn (30:15):
Yeah,
Chevy Stevens (30:15):
and we forget how passionate we are about what we
do until somebody asks us andthen we're like, oh yeah.
David Gwyn (30:22):
yeah.
Chevy Stevens (30:22):
get to say so much about this.
David Gwyn (30:25):
Very cool.
So Chevy, this was awesome.
Thanks
Chevy Stevens (30:27):
Thank you.
David Gwyn (30:27):
the time to chat on the Thriller 1 0 1
Chevy Stevens (30:28):
No problem.
today I'm Thriller 1 0 1.
(00:01):
I'm joined by Chevy Stevens, theNew York Times bestselling
author whose latest novel theHitchhiker takes readers on a
fun maybe not fun for hercharacters, but certainly fun
for readers.
Ride across 1970s Canada.
Chevy and I are gonna talk aboutwriting.
How she creates her antagonistsand how she writes these quality
plots and twists that have madereaders fall in love with her
(00:22):
characters and her story.
So Chevy, thanks so much forbeing on the Thriller 1 0 1
Podcast.
Chevy Stevens (00:27):
For having me.
David Gwyn (00:28):
Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you.
So for people who are listening,why don't you give them a quick
overview on what the Hitchhikersis about?
Chevy Stevens (00:35):
Oh, you just did a great description, but I, I
like to shorten it to, it's ahome invasion on wheels.
That sort of sets it up quitenicely, but it is about a couple
in 1970s, 1976, who decide to goon a road trip to escape from,
you know, some struggles intheir life.
And, I put them through so muchthat by the time they're
(00:57):
finished, they'll probably won'tever get in an RV again.
So that's, it's, it's, I wantedto do more of the, you know, the
closed room sort of thrillers,
David Gwyn (01:07):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (01:07):
that's where this one went.
It's the different type.
It's not a who done it, youknow, it's very much a, who's
going to win or who, who's gonnastand at the end of this?
David Gwyn (01:17):
Yeah, I love that.
So tell me a little bit aboutwhere this story came from.
I mean, why, why an rv, why1970s?
Like what, what,
Chevy Stevens (01:23):
Sure.
David Gwyn (01:24):
here?
Talk through that.
Chevy Stevens (01:25):
I wish that a book just landed right in my
brain, like fully formed, likeknowing everything.
I seem to be, unfortunately, Ihave to do a lot of trial and
error before I, I kind of getwhat feels right.
The, the initial little germ ofthis one was in a dream.
Sometimes I do a lot ofbrainstorming when I can you
know, that hazy period rightbefore you go to sleep or a nap,
(01:49):
I just empty my mind and I justlet it go and it follows like
weird little channels.
But this one in particular, I'dwent to bed thinking I really
need a book idea.
And then this colonel came andit was just an image of a, like
an RV careening around corners.
And it had a flash of like whatit would be like if, like, you
(02:09):
know this person who's abductedyou and you see them like, take
your husband outside or likejust that feeling of being
overtaken and you're not justovertaken and they literally
have wheels and a kitchen.
Like they can, they're good.
You know, they, they can go allkinds of places and they got
meals, you know,
David Gwyn (02:29):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (02:30):
for them.
And I'm like, man, I don't, Idon't know if anyone's ever done
that.
And so it just progressed.
It wasn't initially said in theseventies.
David Gwyn (02:38):
Okay.
Chevy Stevens (02:39):
my main character, I wanted her to have
a love of nostalgia and vintageAirstreams.
'cause I was going through avintage Airstream.
Can't go buy a vintageAirstream, so I'm gonna give my
character one.
But I was running into, theproblem with many authors
nowadays do is that ourtechnology is making it harder
to get away with stuff.
This is great for cops, bad forcriminals, and bad for authors.
(03:03):
So unless you're, you know, ankind of author who is actually
writing about the tech industry.
David Gwyn (03:07):
Right.
Chevy Stevens (03:08):
But in my case, I'm like, everyone's got cell
phones.
Every gas station has stuff, youknow, it would've been on TikTok
within an 10 minutes.
Somebody would've been in theback doing a TikTok dance.
and I found myself.
It felt familiar.
'cause I had just done a bookwhere somebody just, I had to
explain why they couldn't usetheir phone, why they couldn't
get to a phone, why they, oh no.
(03:29):
I dropped a call.
So I was like, man, this sucks.
I don't like this.
And so I just pitched it to myeditor.
I said, do you mind if I setthis like in the seventies?
And just felt like it would giveit a cool vibe.
And she was like, yeah, totally.
Go for it.
And I picked 1976 because thatwas the Montreal Olympics, so I
could cement it into aparticular time.
David Gwyn (03:49):
Yeah.
Nice.
Chevy Stevens (03:50):
It gave them a reason.
It gave like a purpose, it gavea flavor.
'cause of course, Canada wasvery excited about the Olympics
and so it just gave a whole tonethat I could give.
And I like the seventies.
The seventies is like just sucha.
Just such a cool time.
David Gwyn (04:07):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (04:07):
mean, I was a kid in it, but like it is retro.
It's retro for me too, and Ijust, I thought it was fun and I
don't know why, but thecharacters seem, people, they
seem sexier back then, you know?
I don't know.
It's just like, it just has thatvibe.
I do, you know, QuentinTarantino Once Upon a Hollywood,
David Gwyn (04:26):
Yeah,
Chevy Stevens (04:26):
you know, that seventies vibe in the beginning.
I'm like, I wanna live in thatworld in a book.
And so I did.
Yeah.
David Gwyn (04:32):
cool.
That's awesome.
And so you're, you're kind ofgoing to the, the place I wanted
to go next, which is, which isyour character.
So
Chevy Stevens (04:38):
Yep.
David Gwyn (04:38):
these really.
Complex antagonists.
And, and I'm curious, how do yougo about creating an antagonist
so
Chevy Stevens (04:45):
Mm-hmm.
David Gwyn (04:46):
me through that process.
What, do they come fully formed?
Are they a process as you go?
What, what does that
Chevy Stevens (04:51):
Wouldn't that be nice?
No.
Usually I start with the premiseand then it's figuring out you
know, you have to have the badperson.
I, I find my books tend to begood if I ha I have to have a
character that will pushingagainst, they might not be the
ultimate bad guy, but we do needto know who we're supposed to be
(05:12):
afraid of.
David Gwyn (05:13):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (05:14):
you know, mysteries tend to be more, you,
you know, you, you have yourkiller in the boardroom and then
there's 10 people and we'refiguring out who did it,
David Gwyn (05:22):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (05:23):
and I just, I don't know.
It doesn't, I run outta steam orI'm just not good at that.
David Gwyn (05:28):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (05:28):
I do better with 10 people in the room and one
has a knife
David Gwyn (05:32):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (05:33):
We don't want that guy to get us, but is he
the actual knife killer thatworks better for me?
And, and it just makes it moreof exciting to read.
So, but in this case and I liketo think I'm getting better at
this every time, but I reallydon't know if I am is if I've
picked the wrong, bad person.
I won't be able to get it goingand, and it will just stall over
(05:55):
and over.
And I'm like, why am I runningoutta steam?
Why am I running outta steam?
And in this case Simon wasinitially one of the narrators
and I can't have somebodynarrate if we don't.
He was supposed to be moresympathetic
David Gwyn (06:13):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (06:14):
and or then start getting not so sympathetic.
But we can't be in the head ofthat person if we're supposed to
kind of like them,
David Gwyn (06:21):
Mm-hmm.
Chevy Stevens (06:22):
because if we trust them or we like them, then
we don't think they can be doingthe bad things.
And boy, are they not scaryanymore?
David Gwyn (06:29):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (06:30):
Like, oh, I know he hasn't, but he's not really
like that.
David Gwyn (06:33):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (06:34):
Like he's just had a bad childhood,
David Gwyn (06:37):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (06:38):
so.
I do have to, and, and everythriller writer fights this and
you know, you can re-review.
Some people are like, oh, I wishI had more backstory.
I wish I knew more about thepeople.
And then other people are like,ah, I didn't need all that
backstory.
So it's tough.
You do have to.
Enough that you know why thisperson is doing this thing,
David Gwyn (06:58):
Mm-hmm.
Chevy Stevens (06:59):
but not go into it too much because ah, many
people do not care.
The reality is, is half thispeople can be just evil'cause
they're freaking evil, you know?
But in books we wantjustification for why not just
they felt like it,
David Gwyn (07:12):
Yeah,
Chevy Stevens (07:12):
but I don't, that is a reality.
So I try to walk that line of, Ilike.
I mean, it depends on the book.
In this one, because it wasnonstop action we didn't really
need to see a ton of his before.
There's a glimmer of it.
I wanted to just create more ofthat image of somebody who.
(07:33):
They get drunk on power in asense.
David Gwyn (07:35):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (07:36):
that happens, you know, somebody who's never done
anything in their entire life,they just go from one to like 60
'cause they can, and it's like,wow, nobody's stopping me.
This is awesome.
David Gwyn (07:47):
Mm-hmm.
Chevy Stevens (07:47):
so that sort of went with him.
And then then yeah, and just,it's sort of like, you know,
it's a pressure cooker.
And anything in life, you seewhat people are really made of
when push comes to shove, right?
There'll be ones that you neverthought would be aggressive,
that stand out to be, you know.
The toughies and there's theones that you think are gonna be
assertive that might crumble inthe corner.
(08:08):
And so when you put them allliterally in a, you know, a
moving can, you, you see likeAlice, she rose to the occasion
that be the, the wife, the, theother narrator.
So it's told between her andJenny who, that's the younger
couple and the older couple.
Simon is my bad guy, and he isJenny's boyfriend, the older
(08:29):
boyfriend And the thing I triedto keep in mind is that he, in
his mind, everything he did hawas justified.
He, he didn't just ma like justhurt people willy-nilly.
He definitely took more pleasurein it than he probably should
have, but in his mind, they werenecessary.
(08:50):
And so that was his code.
So if I have a bad person.
Bad character antagonist.
I try to ha, they have a code,they have a reason in their
mind, it does have to bejustified.
So that's how I try to keep thisstraight line
David Gwyn (09:06):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (09:06):
their, what they would and what they wouldn't,
and that's or why.
And then you can get different.
Well, if they feel this way,then they're gonna feel this way
about that and that and that andthat.
So more usually motivation.
It always comes down tomotivation.
Why are they doing it?
David Gwyn (09:22):
Yeah.
I love that a lot of, a lot ofthriller writers listen to this
podcast, and so I'm sure they'rerunning the check in their mind,
like, does my antagonist have areason behind what,
Chevy Stevens (09:32):
Right.
David Gwyn (09:33):
doing?
Because it is, it's soimportant.
Chevy Stevens (09:35):
Mm-hmm.
David Gwyn (09:35):
because without it, the story, it just doesn't feel
real.
So
Chevy Stevens (09:39):
And sometimes it can be as simple as they like
it,
David Gwyn (09:42):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (09:42):
then you ha, I mean, there are very bad people
who do very bad things becauseto them it's just awesome.
David Gwyn (09:48):
Yep.
Chevy Stevens (09:48):
then you gotta keep with that.
Okay, cool.
I've got like this dude.
And he just really loves doingbad things.
Like even Dexter had a code.
David Gwyn (09:56):
So let's talk about the other side of this a little
bit, and
Chevy Stevens (09:58):
Sure.
David Gwyn (09:58):
Alice here.
So you are, you, you have thesecharacters where you put them in
difficult situations, and Ithink one of the things that I
think you do really well is you.
Building the kind of emotionalconnection with readers early
with your, with your protagonistand, and with your main
characters here.
So can you talk us through thatprocess a little bit?
Like what are you thinking aboutbefore you kind of put your
(10:19):
characters into these reallydifficult situations?
We need as readers, we need tocare about
Chevy Stevens (10:25):
Mm-hmm.
David Gwyn (10:26):
so, so what does that look like for you?
Do you think about that at all?
How do you navigate that?
Chevy Stevens (11:16):
I do, I don't know if I logically think in my
head, how are we gonna careabout them?
I'm probably thinking, how can Icare about them?
David Gwyn (11:25):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (11:26):
And then if I am interested or have sympathy for
this person, or wanna see thisperson succeed or deal with what
they're dealing with, or I'mempathetic to their struggle,
then usually the reader will aswell.
So I.
I doubt I could write a bookabout a really horrible person
unless there was a reason Iactually really liked that
person and wanted him to redeemhimself or something.
(11:47):
Something, something else.
So it's more, I'm probablypicking the narrator or the
character that I care about.
They do evolve and they get morewell-rounded.
David Gwyn (11:55):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (11:56):
I think for me, if they're currently undergoing
something emotional that they'rehaving to work through, heal
from deal with.
Then, then they are like, Iguess more of a raw person.
They're raw and then they havemore emotion.
And if they're having morefeeling, I can, I can feel that
(12:17):
through them.
So yeah they, I think usually Iwould say almost every one of my
characters is currently in themidst.
Of having like I don't thinkI've ever started a character
where things are just awesome.
David Gwyn (12:30):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (12:31):
If it were, it was page one
David Gwyn (12:32):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (12:33):
and it changed my page two very swiftly.
David Gwyn (12:37):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (12:38):
I don't think I've ever done one where they're
all like, boy, this is a greatday.
You know, it's usually if I do,it's because I actually have
given them a prologue and thenwe're gonna go back.
David Gwyn (12:48):
Well,
Chevy Stevens (12:48):
So I think that's it.
David Gwyn (12:50):
As a, as a thriller writer, there's a
Chevy Stevens (12:51):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (12:52):
for readers,
Chevy Stevens (12:53):
Yes.
David Gwyn (12:54):
a certain things that you have to, to meet.
Chevy Stevens (12:56):
it's getting harder for thriller writers, I
think.
I mean, maybe this is a storyof, you know, as old as time,
but you know, they getfrustrated with tropes.
Readers do, but there's only somany we can do.
We, you know, we try to come atit as fresh.
If you're curve or your twist istoo far out of left field, and
people are like, what the hell?
(13:17):
When did, why did that?
Character come on to the stage,you know?
But if it's so it's walk of thatline of making it feel fresh.
But man, there are so manyamazing thriller writers these
days.
This is hard.
David Gwyn (13:30):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (13:31):
know, we gotta give those readers to give us a
little grace.
We're trying.
David Gwyn (13:35):
Right.
So, so tell me a little bitabout how then your plot and
characters come together.
So, we've talked a little bitabout plot, we talked a little
bit about
Chevy Stevens (13:43):
Sure.
David Gwyn (13:43):
Are these things happening simultaneously?
Is this just kind of happeningorganically?
Like what are you thinking aboutwhen you're.
Building a plot for a characterand a character for a plot.
Like where do these thingsalign?
Chevy Stevens (13:55):
You know, and again, it's evolution.
Each one's been slightlydifferent.
You know, still missing was awhat if.
And I heard one character and Iheard her speak very clearly in
my mind, and she was talkingabout everything that happened
to her.
I had very clear certain thingsthat I knew happened and then I
was just writing, trying to getto those things.
David Gwyn (14:13):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (14:13):
As you move on, you start realizing that's not
necessarily how our all they'regonna do, because that was a
book idea that came to me.
Whereas now being a professionalthriller writer, I am mining for
ideas.
So it's different.
You know, I have to, I might.
Have a list of different ideasthat intrigue me or a true crime
case that I thought wasinteresting or wild or
(14:35):
something.
And I'll make a list of them.
But all good ideas are notbooks, right?
David Gwyn (14:40):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (14:41):
So then I will do the test of, do I think there's
gonna be enough juice?
You know, like it's like I canhave a cool.
Sort of idea, but then what doesthe book like?
Like what is actually making upthe 400 pages?
David Gwyn (14:56):
Hm.
Chevy Stevens (14:57):
You know, is it gonna be just somebody sneaking
around going, oh no, they gotme.
Like, so you have to have thebulk.
What are these people doing?
And so I guess for me it'sstarts with a kernel of a
concept maybe.
And then I start trying to workit to see.
Will this have enough tension?
(15:18):
That's the main thing.
Will I be able to get somesuspense and tension here?
And then it's who is best totell that story?
Like which character?
Like for my last one, I didn'tdo an.
I tried not to keep my pattern,one chapter for her, one chapter
for the other, because I find ifyou do that, you end up trying
(15:39):
to fill someone's chapter ifthey're not actually doing
anything exciting.
David Gwyn (15:43):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (15:43):
my thing for that book was whoever had the, the
who was having the really shittytime, they got the chapter, you
know, whoever was torturedenough or whoever was gonna go
do something interesting
David Gwyn (15:57):
Yeah,
Chevy Stevens (15:58):
or scary, they got the chapter.
David Gwyn (16:01):
yeah.
Chevy Stevens (16:01):
And so that's just how I flowed, you know?
And then I had to weave in somebackstory later on too.
So then it was like, how do youput that in there?
It's, you know, big puzzles.
The one I am working on now ismy ninth novel.
This one, again, the premisestarted with a drifty little
daydream.
(16:22):
And then it evolved because thenI talk to my editor, I go, I'll
send her a list, and then Ialways put the one I like a
little higher up on the list.
And then if she says, I likethis one, this one or this one,
I'll go, yeah, those are, Imean, those are good, but did
you see that one right there?
I think I could do somethingwith that one.
And then we usually have severaltalks.
David Gwyn (16:41):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (16:42):
often I get off the phone feeling like, totally
pumped up.
Yeah, super exciting.
But then I put it through my ownmental, I don't know, like
filter, like, will it have this?
Mm, but what about this?
And then when I start gettingdoubts, I, I try to pay
attention.
You know, earlier in my career Imight have just overwrote it
(17:02):
because we're all a little inlove with our editors, like
worship.
Love, mentor, fear, love
David Gwyn (17:11):
All the emotions.
Chevy Stevens (17:12):
all of it.
And so if they think something'sa really good idea, a fa, it can
actually be really hard to walkaway from it or to, to veer
because all we heard is that'swhat they want us to do.
Okay, we'll do you know?
And then after a while you'relike, oh, but you know, she was
really excited about the idea,but I don't know if that's
working.
And so I've come to learn.
(17:32):
They're just brainstorming withyou,
David Gwyn (17:34):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (17:35):
and she is more than okay with me telling her,
you know what?
I actually think that's fallingapart.
What if I do?
Am I like this, this, this, andthis?
You know, they're justspitballing and trying to help
you.
In no way in form is she saying,you have to do it this way, but
it can lock in her head, and Ican spend six months trying to
make that damn thing workwithout going, Ugh.
So I'm, I'm trying over andover.
(17:56):
To really get more solid aboutwhat it is that works for me,
what it is I want to do in thisone.
Because I think for me as awriter to feel fresh, I like to
have a new challenge, whether itbe writing a his in the past,
that was new for me.
That book was the first one Ialso wrote in full third person.
Close third.
(18:17):
I was always a first personwriter.
I didn't even know I could writein third.
David Gwyn (18:21):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (18:21):
it wasn't until dark Roads when my editor asked
me to put one of the charactersin third that I was like, huh.
It felt weird at first, youknow, like driving on the wrong
side of the road.
Every once in a while I wouldtoss in an eye'cause I'd forget.
But now I love third,
David Gwyn (18:37):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (18:37):
I'm like, how did I ever do the other thing?
So, so this one is third,
David Gwyn (18:42):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (18:43):
I find I've now, so I've come, I cannot plot out
an entire book.
David Gwyn (18:48):
Okay.
Chevy Stevens (18:49):
have bulks of things.
I have I'll start getting imagesand scenes.
I will be more about.
Which characters want what?
And then a scene will startmorphing out of that.
But it's like Legos, like, sothe one I'm working on right
now, it, Cantonese is a dream.
(19:09):
It was a woman who she's beinghaunted by her husband's dead
mistress.
That he, he didn't know.
She doesn't know he's havingmistress.
But it evolved because theproblem with that is, you know,
is it the waitress or is it thewife?
And so I'll try it, I'll try itmany ways.
I will rewrite a first chapterseveral times until I just know
(19:32):
it's got the bite.
So then I know who's who istelling it, and I'll pitch it to
my editor and she said, I thinkthe, you know, it should be in
first person.
I didn't really like it infirst, so I sent her it first
and then in third.
And she said, you know what,these are actually so close.
Do whatever you want.
And I'm like, third, it is.
So, so it's kind of like, Iguess it's like soup.
(19:53):
I know I wanna make a chickensoup.
I saw, I, you know, I've had agood idea.
I've been craving chicken soup,but then I wanna do a chicken
soup that nobody else has done achicken soup and I wanna make a
chicken soup.
That I haven't done before,
David Gwyn (20:06):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (20:07):
I wanna experiment with some different
spices and then maybe there's alittle too much to that one, but
not enough this one.
But, so for this book, I've beenworking harder on getting all my
ingredients, but I don't knowthe mix yet
David Gwyn (20:19):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (20:20):
or what's gonna go in first, second, third, I
know, but I would say this oneis the first one I've crafted
that has layers.
So it's not just a all the waythrough.
David Gwyn (20:31):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (20:32):
So I've been enjoying that.
It's like weaving little,probably like Taylor Swift feels
with her little Easter eggs thatshe leaves everywhere.
David Gwyn (20:38):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (20:39):
like smugly sowing the seeds for the little
trips along the way.
So we'll see.
Hopefully it works.
Hopefully I'm not giving anotherinterview in three go going.
Okay, so that did not work.
David Gwyn (20:50):
that one
Chevy Stevens (20:51):
Don't do that one.
Yeah, that could happen.
David Gwyn (20:54):
that.
I, I, it's funny.
Yeah.
I haven't mentioned, I've talkedto a lot of,
Chevy Stevens (20:57):
Yeah.
Sure.
David Gwyn (20:58):
and there, I'm, I always love the metaphors that
people have for their writingand like.
I can totally envision you likestanding at like a counter with
all of your ingredients, tryingto figure out what goes in
first,
Chevy Stevens (21:09):
Right.
Celery.
No.
Too crunchy.
Too crunchy, right?
David Gwyn (21:13):
So you, you touched on your career a little bit and
I,
Chevy Stevens (21:15):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (21:16):
to hear you talk a little bit more about that.
'cause I, I'm, I'm, you know,you've obviously built this
really impressive.
Of writing career.
And so I'm curious about kind ofjust the lessons you've learned
about sustaining a career,writing thrillers kind of from,
from still missing your, your,your debut novel all the way
till now.
You've, it sounds like you'reworking on your ninth novel.
Chevy Stevens (21:34):
Mm-hmm.
David Gwyn (21:35):
just kind of advice for people who are out there
thinking about having a writingcareer, especially in
Chevy Stevens (21:39):
Sure.
David Gwyn (21:40):
what, what kind of advice do you have for people?
Chevy Stevens (21:42):
I think the main advice is that there's no cookie
cutter.
Like almost every writer youtalk to is gonna have had a
different process, differentchallenges that they faced.
There's some that are lucky,right?
Not lucky.
Maybe just win right out thegate and keep winning.
Yay for them.
I don't like those ones.
I'm just kidding.
No, there's some that, that'sgood.
(22:03):
There's others who have reallyworked their way up.
And just because somethingwasn't successful right away
doesn't mean it won't be
David Gwyn (22:11):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (22:11):
because there's lots of stories of people who on
their fourth, fifth book, itjust flew.
David Gwyn (22:17):
Mm-hmm.
Chevy Stevens (22:17):
others that a book that was out for a year
just started happening.
So I think there's no one way.
But if there's any consistent,you gotta stay at it.
And now luck, unfortunately, isa part of it.
David Gwyn (22:31):
Mm-hmm.
Chevy Stevens (22:31):
I got a really good agent and I have a really
good editor, and I've been withthe same ones since the
beginning,
David Gwyn (22:36):
Oh, wow.
Chevy Stevens (22:37):
I've been with my agent longer than my husband.
I would say he's my mostlong-term male relationship.
But that's not always the case,and I've been lucky in that and
I know that, you know, I've seenreally talented authors get just
they're get torpedoed and it'sreally sad.
Like it is.
It's a business like any otherbusiness.
But I think you just have tokeep reinventing and keep
(22:58):
trying, keep kicking the kick atthe can.
David Gwyn (23:02):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (23:02):
case, my first book came out and was really
successful, but.
I had never gone to universityor anything.
That was my, I learned on thatbook.
So my personal challenge was Iactually still didn't know how
to write a frigging book.
I learned how to write that one.
David Gwyn (23:17):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (23:17):
so everything I'd learned was about making that
one good, that idea good.
I hadn't yet learned.
Not all ideas are good
David Gwyn (23:25):
Mm-hmm.
Chevy Stevens (23:25):
and what it takes and what I'm best at and what
I'm not good at, and all ofthat, you know?
Go back in time.
Maybe I would do it different.
Who knows?
But.
My first one was massive and Ididn't really enjoy the process
of that one coming out, which Iwish I could have, but I was in
the horrible throes of trying toget your second book
David Gwyn (23:49):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (23:49):
and the pressure of knowing your first one was
amazing, and everybody wants youto have your second amazing.
But we can't all be TaylorSwift's.
You know, some of us are the onehit wonders that, you know, it
just, maybe it never ha andyou're, you're, you're happy it
happened once, but boy, you, youdidn't wanna get off the field
(24:10):
yet.
Right?
So, you know, my second one, Imean, they did well, but they
did not do what the first onedid.
And I feel like I've been slowlykind of getting up there again,
you know, and learning more mycraft and building.
I have done things differentlythan many authors in the fact
that I did not kill myself totry to put out the last two
(24:34):
faster.
David Gwyn (24:36):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (24:36):
They took me a while because they just took me
a while,
David Gwyn (24:39):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (24:40):
also I didn't make it my, I was like, I'm just
going to get it right.
David Gwyn (24:46):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (24:47):
I didn't go, I've got to stay up.
I've gotta, you know, I didn'tthere.
I've seen authors who are reallysuccessful, I would kill for
their back list, let aloneputting out new stuff, and
they're still checkingthemselves into hotels for a
week straight beforehand, tryingto get it finished.
And I'm like, girl, everyonewill wait for you.
David Gwyn (25:08):
Yeah.
Right.
Chevy Stevens (25:08):
You know, and I, I'm, I like, I guess it's a mix
of, you know, pride and feelingof the, they, they, they feel
they have to and or desire, I'msure,
David Gwyn (25:17):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (25:18):
but I have a kid
David Gwyn (25:19):
Mm-hmm.
Chevy Stevens (25:20):
and for the last, you know, eight years, they get
sick.
David Gwyn (25:24):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (25:24):
want you.
I've chosen my family many timesover that now.
I was able to,'cause I'm olderand I was smart with my early
earnings.
I never just blew it all.
And so I could balance, butyeah, if I wrote a book a year
or a book every two year, I'd bemaking shitloads more money.
But I really wanted to just feellike I'm, I gave it my best.
David Gwyn (25:49):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (25:49):
Not everyone else will, might think is my best
'cause everyone likes somethingdifferent.
But I will know that there'sliterally not one word.
I didn't really agonize over,
David Gwyn (26:00):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (26:00):
you know, sink.
That what I gave it, everythingI had at that time.
David Gwyn (26:05):
yeah.
I love that.
I, I work with writers.
I have a community of writersthat I work with.
And I always tell'em, I thinkI'm gonna have to amend this a
little bit.
Now.
I always tell'em, it, it's awriting career is really like a
race to 10 books and to out,like write published, like, and,
and it's because one of thosestatistically is probably gonna
do pretty well, and that willfeed your back list and
Chevy Stevens (26:23):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (26:24):
your other stuff.
But now I think I need to amendthat and be like, it's a race to
10 good books, because 10 badbooks isn't gonna get you
anywhere.
Chevy Stevens (26:32):
It's interesting you say that because I've also
had that thought, like, I've hadthese talks with my husband.
I mean, like, I feel like I'vebeen trying to get the magic of
getting that one big one again.
David Gwyn (26:41):
yeah,
Chevy Stevens (26:41):
know, like trying to get that one that puts you
on, and then it seems like it,you could read anything, write
anything after that, and itseems like they're just like,
oh, it's so and so,
David Gwyn (26:49):
yeah,
Chevy Stevens (26:49):
oh, that it's, it'll be fine.
It's so and so, but.
I have also had that mindset ofmaybe it is a number game.
Maybe this is, you just keepputting them out.
You just gotta keep going.
One of them will eventuallyland,
David Gwyn (27:01):
Yeah,
Chevy Stevens (27:01):
yeah.
Good is important.
'cause as easy, you can alsolose very quickly.
so I don't really know.
If it's 10, that's not good newsfor me'cause I'm on eight.
David Gwyn (27:12):
Hey,
Chevy Stevens (27:12):
Can we revise that?
David Gwyn (27:14):
That's not too bad.
That's not too bad.
Chevy Stevens (27:16):
it, can we say it's eight?
But I will say this is my eighthand it has three starred reviews
right now, which still missinghad four.
David Gwyn (27:26):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (27:27):
And so that.
I've had almost, I think everyone of them has had one star
since then.
But so to my own personal goalis always, of course, to have
reached the success of my firstone.
That's what I want.
I want that again, like, I'm notgonna lie, I want that.
I've, you know, I'm really bigbeliever in manifesting.
(27:47):
So
David Gwyn (27:48):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (27:48):
I will write out success, mission statements that
I want, and, like, I'll call tothe, you know, put it out in the
universe.
I 100% believe in putting outinto the universe.
I do a lot of mental imagery.
David Gwyn (28:00):
Hmm.
Chevy Stevens (28:01):
Every night before I was going to, you know,
bed after working on this book,I would, I'd have a vision in my
mind, and I would see the book,and I'd see it open, and I would
see gold thread going around it.
And I would pull the gold threadtighter and tighter and tighter
and tighter.
And that was my concept ofhaving the tightest book
possible.
And I just held that image everynight.
(28:21):
So, I don't know.
I'm a little bit, I got a littlebit of the witch in me.
David Gwyn (28:25):
I love that.
I think it's,
Chevy Stevens (28:26):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (28:26):
whatever that The other thing I say to everybody
is it doesn't matter what you doto get the book done as long as
the book gets done.
Chevy Stevens (28:32):
Yes.
David Gwyn (28:33):
sounds like for you, that's the thing that works and
I love that.
I
Chevy Stevens (28:36):
Yeah, the magic and, and you know, we all have
this,
David Gwyn (28:40):
I have like two more questions for
Chevy Stevens (28:41):
Sure,
David Gwyn (28:42):
and then we're on the way out here.
So,
Chevy Stevens (28:43):
sure.
David Gwyn (28:44):
one of my last questions is just,
Chevy Stevens (28:45):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (28:46):
can people find you?
Where can people look you up?
Chevy Stevens (28:48):
I'm again, the anti what we're supposed to be
doing.
I'm not on social medias a muchas I should be.
I'm really trying to leantowards.
One of those authors that's likereally mysterious.
You like, see once every fouryears they,
David Gwyn (29:04):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (29:05):
they come out from the cave.
But I am on Facebook.
I'm probably mostly on Facebook.
I am on TikTok, but that'smostly for my own pleasure.
I don't post much on faceTikTok.
I'm trying to get better at it.
I've spoken a couple podcastsand keep joking and then I'm
waiting until my daughter canstart doing my social media.
David Gwyn (29:22):
Oh yeah
Chevy Stevens (29:22):
that's my ultimate goal.
So far, she doesn't really wannapost about my stuff, but I mean,
I'm trying to tell you, like Itry to tell her, the more
successful I am, the better itis for you.
But Instagram, I'm on Instagram,but I tend to not be on a lot of
social media and tell I'mputting a book out that I'm on
there a lot more.
David Gwyn (29:40):
That makes
Chevy Stevens (29:40):
But Facebook, I do answer my fans, I do
interact, I do try tocommunicate on there.
If nobody's heard me from a lot,it's'cause I'm writing a book.
David Gwyn (29:48):
Yeah.
Chevy Stevens (29:49):
you know, no news is good news.
But then when I'm out there alot, then I'm more active and I
do try to communicate withpeople
David Gwyn (29:56):
That's awesome.
So this was so much fun.
I, I really enjoyed talking toyou.
I, I feel like we could, wecould chat all day, so,
Chevy Stevens (30:03):
probably.
I told you that's the problem.
Me, me talking is not theproblem.
Me stop talking is the problem.
Because I don't talk.
Well, you know, again, we workin like a whole for a really
long time
David Gwyn (30:15):
Yeah,
Chevy Stevens (30:15):
and we forget how passionate we are about what we
do until somebody asks us andthen we're like, oh yeah.
David Gwyn (30:22):
yeah.
Chevy Stevens (30:22):
get to say so much about this.
David Gwyn (30:25):
Very cool.
So Chevy, this was awesome.
Thanks
Chevy Stevens (30:27):
Thank you.
David Gwyn (30:27):
the time to chat on the Thriller 1 0 1
Chevy Stevens (30:28):
No problem.
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The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.