October 9, 2025 • 32 mins
What if the setting you choose could be as morally complex as your protagonist?
In this episode, USA Today bestselling author Aaron Philip Clark pulls back the curtain on how he crafts crime fiction that thrills and matters.
Aaron reveals:
- his process for weaving heavy themes into page-turners without slowing the pace
- why he writes from a place of frustration and injustice
- how to make every setting choice deliberate and loaded with meaning.
If you're tired of writing surface-level thrillers or struggling to add depth without killing your momentum, this conversation will change how you approach your craft.
Aaron's insights on creating "literary humans" instead of plot devices alone are worth the listen, but his framework for balancing suspense with substance is something I personally will be implementing in my work.
https://www.aaronphilipclark.com/
https://x.com/RealAPCBooks
https://www.instagram.com/realapcbooks/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Gwyn (00:00):
So today on the Thriller 1 0 1 podcast, I'm
(00:01):
joined by Aaron Philip Clark,USA, today bestselling novelist,
screenwriter, professor, andhost of the Culture Point
Podcast.
Aaron's stories blend thisreally cool atmosphere with
themes of like, race justice,redemption.
We've had the opportunity totalk a few times.
I always love talking to Aaron'cause he provides so much great
advice for, for writers.
But I think also.
(00:22):
he's one of the writers that Ilisten to who, when I hear his
interview, it makes me read hiswork more deeply, which I think
is super cool.
And so if you listen to thispodcast and you, and, and you
like this conversation withAaron, which as I'm sure you
will I'll link to Aaron's otherconversations from the further
one one podcast down in thedescription, so you can check
that out.
Today we're talking about hislatest novel, the Bluest Knight.
Which follows Trevor Finnegan ashe investigates a quote, deadly
(00:46):
conspiracy that if he survives,will change him forever.
Aaron, welcome back to theThriller 1 0 1 Podcast.
Aaron Philip Clark (00:53):
Happy to be here.
David Gwyn (00:55):
So tell us before we get any further, I wanna know
what, what is the Bluest nightabout?
Aaron Philip Clark (01:00):
So the Bluest night is, the third
Trevor Finnegan novel.
So it picks up essentiallyreally two weeks after the end
of the second novel, which wasblue like me.
So Trevor has just learned thathe has a, kind of long lost
stepbrother, his father has, hastold him that, you know, he had
this other family and itproduced this child and his
stepbrother Avery is living inNevada and his father has been
(01:22):
in communication with him.
And Avery has decided to comefrom Nevada to California to
meet his beat his father along.
And he's bringing his girlfriendalong with this idea that they
may be, you know, they're gonnaannounce this engagement and
they're gonna get married.
You know, it looks like there'sgonna be this wonderful kind of
family reunion.
The only thing is that hisfather they never make it to his
(01:45):
father.
And Avery's girlfriend is found.
Dead in Malibu.
And Avery is ultimatelydiscovered there as well
David Gwyn (01:53):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (01:53):
Trevor and his father.
And he's been beaten and he canbarely remember anything.
And so he's taken into custodybecause they're not so sure if
he's involved or not.
David Gwyn (02:02):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (02:02):
so pop Finnegan or Sean Finnegan, but
they call him Pop.
Trevor's father is.
In complete denial and doesn'tthink that he could produce, you
know a child who would doanything like that to another
human being.
And so he immediately suspectsthat there's some sort of foul
play going on.
And so with the help of what Icall the kind of modern, fem
(02:24):
fatal being and it, it is coolto have that.
She comes back, but you knowCassandra Boyle, her return.
As this Malibu resident theykind of lean on her because
she's local.
And she lets them stay there asthey kind of investigate this
case.
And then the deeper they get,the more they realize that
there's something incrediblyinsidious happening in Malibu.
(02:47):
And that you know, thesecommunities, these homogenous
communities where everyonebelieves that there's this,
this.
Level of safety where you don'teven have to lock your door.
Maybe that exists for somepeople, but not for all people.
And so you know, very much thestory is, is examining that
notion of what what may lurkjust below the surface of a
(03:08):
place that we believe to be aparadise.
David Gwyn (03:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, you, you set us right upnicely to, to have these
conversations around settingand, and character and theme,
which are the things that I, Ialways love to talk to you about
and, and things I wanted to, todive in here.
Let, let's start with character,because I think this is an
interesting one.
I feel like Because of who'sinvolved in this particular
story, there's an added level ofsuspense and stakes.
(03:33):
C can you just talk about likehow you balance the kinda
emotional family aspect herewith a crime plot that you have
to kind of keep the pace moving?
Aaron Philip Clark (03:43):
Well, yeah, I mean I always knew that Trevor
was gonna team up with hisfather and.
That was kind of the idea ofhaving this very, two great
investigators, but theirapproach to work is completely
different and his father has alot of baggage.
So, you know, in some ways hisfather antagonizes him a great
deal but they have to worktogether.
(04:03):
And so I, I knew that that wasgonna kind of be at the heart of
it, but I also, you know, I, Ilook at it as yes, Trevor has
probably had, you know, hundredsof other cases, right?
But.
I look at it where if I'mwriting a book, it's about the
case that's gonna change him themost.
David Gwyn (04:21):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (04:21):
know, so it could be you know, I could, I
could have written it in the waywhere, you know, you have some,
some f infantile who walks inand says, I need your help.
And you know, that kind ofclassic paradigm that we've
seen.
But to me, I'm not thatinterested.
In that, you know, I'm moreinterested in the cases that are
really going to have the mostimpact on him as a character.
(04:43):
And I, and I push Trevor to theedge, you know, I mean, I, I, I
mean, you know, some people saythey, they have so much pity on
him sometimes, you know, peoplesay, oh my gosh, what else can
happen to this guy?
I say, well, you know, that'sthe idea is that, you know,
unfortunately for Trevor, he's abit of a lightning rod for
chaos.
And I think, you know, but thereason he is, is because he's
(05:05):
oftentimes the only person whocan solve these cases, and he's
the only person who canwithstand some of this.
And so that's why he's chosen ina way to kind of be the champion
and the voice for people who aredown voiceless and may not get
justice if it, if it isn't forhim stepping in and, and, and
really forcing that justice.
(05:25):
And so, you know, that's kind ofhow I look at it.
And all the other charactersare, are you know, I don't know
if I can say that there's anynecessarily one character who
is, is good, you know, whateverthat means, you know?
And so I, I really treat them asliterary humans.
I mean, all of them have theirown baggage.
They're all.
You know, keeping secrets fromeach other.
(05:47):
They all have these ulteriormotives.
You know, maybe with exceptionof, of Serta, you know, she's,
she's kind of just, you know,hanging out in, in France, you
know, and, and, and living herlife and, you know, try to do
the best she can for her andimprove her baking skills so she
can come back and, you know, doher thing.
But, you know, other than that,it's, it's, it's, everyone is
(06:09):
very much, after something veryspecific,
David Gwyn (06:12):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (06:13):
you know, and Trevor's comes into conflict
with so much of that because hiswill is incredibly strong and
you know, his desires areincredibly strong.
And so he, he, as he pursuespursues justice anybody who's in
the way of that is, is gonna bekind of the same fate.
David Gwyn (06:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.
And, and I, I always love askingyou craft questions.
You've got that, that writereducator background.
So you know, I, I'm sure youknew coming in that, that I was
gonna ask you a few, you weren'tgonna get outta here without me
asking some craft questions.
'cause I,'cause I always loveyour answers, so.
What advice would you have forwriters who want to weave in
like that personal relationshipspart into their thriller, but
(06:55):
without slowing down the story?
Like, how can, how can we aswriters build in that emotional
piece, especially when it comesto like family relationships or
other relationships, butmaintain the kind of like pacing
of that's required for, from agenre like this.
Aaron Philip Clark (07:11):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's all about
determining how much of thatwill work for the story.
You know, and the idea is thatit's not, so if we're talking
about from the standpoint of aninvestigator, or let's say, you
know, a, a, a police detectiveor a pi you have to think, okay,
well what aspects of the crimeitself are going to weigh
(07:31):
heavily on the detective?
David Gwyn (07:34):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (07:34):
So you, it's not so much about how the, you
know, the, I think Womba said itright.
It's not about how the.
How the detective works, thecases, how the case works, the
detective.
Right.
So the idea is I take that sameapproach when it comes to the
personal, when it comes to thefriends or family or significant
other or romantic relationship,how does that relationship work?
(07:57):
The detective as well?
You know, what aspects therenow?
It could, it could go eitherway.
It could be that thatrelationship that that detective
has with that other personoutside of the case is a place
of solace,
David Gwyn (08:08):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (08:09):
know?
Maybe it's where they could goand they could take a break from
the case, or maybe it simplyjust adds another layer of
stress that the person now hasto deal with.
It just, it just depends.
But the idea for, to assure thatit doesn't slow down the action
and the pacing of the novel isto make sure that it's woven in,
in a very natural way whichmeans that the, those other
(08:29):
characters have to have somesort of role you know in the
story.
You know, whether it's the, thefriendly bartender, you know,
who, you know, maybe, you know,your detective doesn't have an
office, so he uses the bar andthe, you know, bartender, you
know, takes the messages for,you know, whatever it is.
But Elise, it, it's part of thestory.
You know, it requires the, theprotagonist, your, you know,
(08:51):
your detective character or, oryou know, at least your, your
hero if you will to have tointeract with that person.
You know, throughout the story.
David Gwyn (08:59):
Yeah.
That's cool.
I, I, I think that's reallyinteresting.
I, I love the term literaryhumans that you used.
I think that is like such areally cool term for.
Rethinking how we think aboutcharacters, because I think
sometimes people think ofcharacters as characters, and so
they have this kind of rigid ofwhat they're capable of and what
they should do for the plot.
(09:19):
I think I run into that too,like, you know, the plot is a
certain way, so you're trying tolike jam a character into a
plot.
But sometimes thinking of themas like literary humans where
they have their own ideas aboutwhat, where things are going,
and sometimes you just, you justhave to go with them.
I think is super cool.
So let's talk the Californiacoast because you, you've been
hanging out there in your booksnow for a little while.
(09:40):
And so this setting, does itfeel like you'd write it in your
sleep or is it more like you'retrying to reinvent it every
time?
Aaron Philip Clark (09:47):
Yeah, I mean, it's a mixture of both.
So I think that the, the.
Kind of tried and true elementsof the California coast are
always gonna be there, right?
I mean, you got the Pacific, yougot wonderful views, you know,
you're gonna have the nicesunset.
You know, all of that is there.
But I think the task of, of awriter, when you're writing
about a familiar place, is totry to identify something that
(10:09):
that only you kind ofexperience.
You know, like I, I feel like,you know, it's.
When I go to, you know,different beaches in California,
each one has its own identity.
And so, you know, Venice is verydifferent than Malibu, you know.
But it also is one of thosethings where, you know, because
I'm writing from my ownexperience I kind of know those
(10:30):
communities in a way.
So it's kind of like you know,one of the times I had gone to
Malibu I was helping a friend.
It was in grad school and he waspurchasing a, a couch.
And so, you know, it's pitchblack up there.
I mean, you can't see anything.
So we're driving along and, youknow, they got these signs that
say like, be careful becausethe, the deer crossing and all,
every other kind of animal upthere.
(10:51):
And so we kept going up and upthis hill, right?
So we get to this little hiddencommunity and you know, we park
and he had a Toyota four runner.
So we were able to kind of fit,we were gonna be able to fit
the, the couch in there andeverything.
And so we weren't sure whichhouse.
Was the right house.
So he called.
And so, you know, the personcame out, you know, and it's
(11:13):
like a pitch Black Street.
All you see is like the light goon, right?
And I was like, man, this iseerie.
And so in the, and there hadbeen like this kind of.
Mist kind of fog that hadsettled up there, you know, and
then all of a sudden you kind ofsee this person come out of the,
the house and then comes up andsays, oh, you know, you guys
here for the couch?
You're like, yeah, you know,we're here for the couch.
(11:35):
You know, I just want to getoutta that.
I was like, can we, you know,and most people be like, you
know, it's a super safecommunity.
You shouldn't feel that way.
And I was like, no.
It felt, you know, like as ifthere was some underlining, you
know, kind of danger there.
And before I knew it.
As we were interacting with theperson who was selling us the
couch all the other lights onthe block started coming on, and
(11:56):
then people start coming out andnext thing you know, there's
people in the middle of thestreet.
And it's just all over thiscouch, you know?
And so then they're, and they'reasking, oh, you know, they're
having this whole conversationand they're, you know, they say,
oh, asking us all thesequestions, like, oh, where do
you guys go to school?
And, you know, and I was like,and it is just, it was
completely odd, you know, but,and some people would say, well,
hey, that's just, you know, veryfriendly neighborhood.
(12:19):
And I think it, it, it very wellcould be.
But for me, coming from a placewhere, you know, you might talk
to one or two neighbors,
David Gwyn (12:26):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (12:26):
you know, but you don't, the whole block,
you don't know,
David Gwyn (12:29):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (12:30):
it was just so interesting.
And they were having these fullfledged conversations and this
was like 10 o'clock at night andyou know, and they're, and
they're, and they're, you know,they're coming out on robes and
stuff.
David Gwyn (12:40):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (12:40):
I was like, okay, this.
You know, this is interesting.
You know, there's something veryinteresting here where
everyone's in everyone'sbusiness, you know, and they
know everything about eachother, you know?
But at the same time, it wasvery eerie a little bit, you
know?
David Gwyn (12:55):
I think that's so interesting the way you're kind
of playing with the setting.
You know, when people hearMalibu, they don't necessarily
jump to that type of experienceand that type of feeling.
And I think it's really coolthat you're, you're kind of
playing with that in some wayswith your readers.
And I think that's super cool.
And so I, I kind of wanna talkyou, you kind of led us right to
this, which is the noir elementsof your novels.
(13:17):
It's kind of like a hallmark of,of some of the work that you do.
Talk a little bit about what youlove about kind of infusing noir
into the, into the writing thatyou've done.
Aaron Philip Clark (13:26):
Yeah, I mean, I love playing, you know,
the, the essence of nomar isthe, the light in the dark,
right?
So I love playing with this ideathat on the surface, something
is pristine, something isbeautiful but there's something
rotten beneath that.
And so you know, Trevor says itin the book, you know, there's
no.
Such thing as a paradise,there's no place that one could
(13:48):
escape to.
As long as people are committinghomicides, you know, and doing
horrible things to each otherfor whatever the reason may be,
there is no place that you couldgo.
David Gwyn (14:00):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (14:00):
because unfortunately this is a, a
characteristic of human beings.
And so, you know, when I thinkabout Malibu and I, I think of.
Of the, you know, the coastlineand I think of, you know, the,
the beautiful beach, you know,and, and, you know, and the, and
the idea of the sunset and the,the, the notion of the sunset
(14:24):
having taken, you know, it'lltake 10 minutes, you know,
beautiful sunset.
But for that 10 minutes, youknow, you're, you're witnessing
all these brilliant colors andit's just like the spectacle.
And then after that 10 minutes,it's, it's dark, and it's pitch
black and there's nothing outthere.
And, you know, this idea thatanything could happen, you know,
to you, I mean, if you're on atrail and you take the wrong
(14:44):
turn or you just simplydisappear in a canyon there, you
know, it's, it's that idea ofwhat darkness falls.
You don't know what lingers.
And so I just felt like thatthat's such a noir sort of you
know, sort of, sort of place,because it's, and it's under
policed, you know, I mean, allthey have is, you know, you have
the, the sheriff's station butthere's not many deputies police
(15:05):
in that area because it's thisnotion that it's low crime,
David Gwyn (15:08):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (15:08):
know, so anything could be existing and
happening out there that couldeasily go under the radar of law
enforcement Smith.
David Gwyn (15:14):
Yeah.
It's such a writer's mind.
I think I just like took a walkthrough an experienced writer's
mind of, of thinking through asetting, right?
Like thinking through, you know,why a setting.
I think that's the other thingtoo.
I think sometimes.
Writers, especially young or ornewer writers, they're like, ah,
the setting is the setting.
Like, I'll just pick here orI'll just pick here.
And I think listening to youdescribe why it had to be set in
(15:37):
Malibu is such an importantlesson for, for writers to learn
that, that there is the perfectsetting and there's a reason.
There needs to be a reason.
Your setting's not aplaceholder.
Right.
I think that's so important thatfrom, from what I'm, I'm getting
from listening to you and thelast, the last.
Thing, larger thing that I, I'dlove to talk to you about is
your themes.
I, I think you know, you writeso thematically I'm a, I I think
(16:00):
it's incredibly impor importantto talk about themes and
thrillers.
I think.
too often we see thrillerwriters as a genre, generally
speaking, who overlook theimportance of themes.
They're just trying to writesomething pacey and get it out
there and write their one book ayear and get it out.
And like,
Aaron Philip Clark (16:15):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (16:15):
and, you know, I love a fun read, don't get me
wrong.
Like, I'm fine with somethingpacey like to just kind of turn
through.
But I really like when there'ssubstance and I'm I'm trying to
do more to highlight some of theimportant themes that thrillers
are taking on.
your, your novels are a greatexample of this.
You know, they explore largerthemes alongside the kind of
crime elements that, thatyou're, that you're using as
(16:36):
plot, as plot elements.
So and we've had a chance totalk about this before.
So again, for people who arelistening, you know, go, go
check out those conversations.
'cause I, I love listening toyour approach.
To themes and big ideas in yourwork.
So kind of my, my startingpoint, general question with all
that, that preamble there isjust how, how do you approach
themes without letting themovershadow suspense?
(16:58):
Like, how are you balancingthese in, in your story?
Aaron Philip Clark (17:01):
Yeah, I mean, I, I, my goal is to not
write, the didactic novel,right?
The idea is that when someone'sreading, they don't necessarily
want to feel as if someone islecturing them or, you know,
preaching to them.
And I think by focusing on thestory itself and letting the
other elements be very organicas they kind of unfold, you
(17:25):
know, it's going to happennaturally.
I mean, the, the.
The inspiration for this storywas, you know, the real life
disappearance of MatriceRichardson who she was a, a
Covina resident and shedisappeared in Malibu and then
was ultimately discovered inlike this really remote area.
(17:46):
And to this day, no one knows
David Gwyn (17:48):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (17:48):
what happened to her.
And she was supposedlysurrounded by marijuana plants
that later the sheriffdepartment claimed that.
They thought there was a carteloperating in Malibu, had been
growing marijuana.
But the sheriff was the lastperson to see her alive.
David Gwyn (18:04):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (18:05):
you know, she, they picked her up.
She went to a, they believe shewas potentially having a mental
health crisis, so she drove upto Malibu.
And she didn't have any money.
So she went to one of the localcafes there and she ordered and
she ate.
And then when it was time topay, she clearly didn't have any
money.
The staff were really torn.
They weren't sure if they wantedto call the police or not.
(18:27):
They decided, most of the staffdecided not to, and were
actually thinking about justtaking her, seeing if they could
take her to the sheriff'sstation or take her someplace
safe.
David Gwyn (18:37):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (18:37):
was one staff member who decided to
call.
And went into the back and madethe call.
The sheriff shows up, takes herinto custody.
They drive her to the CalabasasMalibu Sheriff's Station where
she's there.
And then she is able to make acall to her mother.
Her mother said, I, there's noway I can get up to you, you
know, from, from Covina.
(18:58):
At this time, she, you know, thebest thing I, I can do is
probably get you in the morning.
And from there, we don't knowwhat transpired, but she
ultimately was, was let go.
And she's seen on camera walkingwith the sheriff de deputy to
that parking lot.
And that is the last known imageof her.
But throughout that night,people had said that they had
seen her in backyards andwandering, but no one stopped
(19:21):
to, to help.
And it's, you know.
She disappears, days go by andthen she's ultimately
discovered.
But, you know, they weren't evenreally looking for her.
David Gwyn (19:32):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (19:33):
you know, the sheriff was kind of like,
Hey, people come up here all thetime and you get runaways and
this, that, and the other.
You know, and so you know,that's where all a lot of this
kind of came from.
So those themes are alreadygonna be packed in because
that's really where my head wasat when I was writing,
David Gwyn (19:47):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (19:48):
know, this idea of, you know, what
happened, especially.
Very vulnerable populations.
I mean, and, and just the thingsthat happen to people of color
in general, but especially blackwomen, you know, is, is, is
haunting.
And when there's no desire tolook for the, for them, you know
it, it kind of says everything,you know?
(20:09):
And so, and it's happening now.
I mean, so we, so far, you know.
This year, I believe, I want tosay it's in Texas.
Three black women have beenfound in a near this kind of
ravine in Texas.
And their bodies have been foundthere.
And, and they keep saying that,you know, these are natural
causes as if someone wereswimming there or they're
suicides.
I mean, some of this is just,you know, there's no desire to
(20:31):
dig deeper.
And so, you know, I, I thinkthat, since that was the really,
the, the, for me was theoverarching theme of the novel.
It's really the things thathappen of just women in general
but especially women of color.
And the fact that just existingis already putting them in
danger when they're in certainareas and having to interact
(20:53):
with certain people.
David Gwyn (20:54):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (20:55):
and so, you know, that was, that was really
at the, at the heart of it, youknow, and that the, this idea
that you know, these crimes canhappen and things can, and
people can literally just bedisappeared and there may not be
a desire there to find them.
And there's every reason in theworld, you know, we don't have
the budget to extend a searchthat long.
(21:17):
Well, you know.
They put the person on trial,right?
The idea that, well, thisperson, in, in Ma Theresa's
situation, she was a collegegraduate.
but she also worked at this Iguess it was a, a exotic dance
club LGBT Q, exotic Dance club.
And, you know, they were tryingto say, well, you know, maybe
someone, you know, saw her atthis club or did something and,
(21:39):
you know, and, and.
Who knows.
Right?
And they, they were trying tospin it so many different ways.
Anything to divert from the factthat the sheriff department had
the last known contact with her.
So, you know, it's, it's, it, Inormally start there.
I mean, for me to write a novel,I have to really.
Find something that I just findso upsetting.
(22:01):
You know, I know it's odd tosay, but I write from a place of
frustration in the beginning,you know?
And really when I think aboutcertain types of injustice,
David Gwyn (22:10):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (22:11):
really what fuels me.
to write a.
David Gwyn (22:13):
Yeah, no, I love that.
(23:01):
And, and, and like I mentionedat, at the outset, I feel like
feel like this genre doesn'talways.
Appreciate some of the like,thematic work that's being done.
And I think because it is seenas like an escape, it can be
seen as like an an escapistgenre where it's like, oh, I'm
just gonna read about thesepeople who are going a crazy
(23:21):
thing that happened.
And like, that's, it's, that'sit, it's the end.
Aaron Philip Clark (23:25):
Hmm.
David Gwyn (23:25):
I think I find the one, the stories that really
stick with me are the ones thathave some weight to them.
And so what do you think it islike.
What do you think it is aboutthese genres that are, that
actually are a really goodvehicle for exploring themes and
social justice and, and thesekind of like bigger ideas, why
is this genre so good for it?
(23:46):
Even if it is maybe underusedfor, for these big ideas.
Aaron Philip Clark (23:49):
Because everybody loves a mystery.
You know, everybody, you know,even what, what I guess the
publishing world will considerliterature
David Gwyn (23:59):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (24:00):
often has an element of mystery there.
David Gwyn (24:02):
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (24:03):
You know, you think about the Goldfinch.
Yeah.
It's crime, it's mystery there.
David Gwyn (24:08):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (24:08):
so I think that that hooks people.
And so you, it gives you a levelof freedom because you know that
it's gonna entertain peoplebecause they're thinking so
people are having, they, they'reactively trying to figure out
who did it, what's gonna happennext?
How is the protagonist the hero?
(24:29):
Going to escape this situation.
That's where their head is at.
David Gwyn (24:33):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (24:33):
at the same time, you know, that's the, the
subtext of what's really goingon.
Right.
What is the overall, you know,overarching theme of the work
can easily be there and peoplehave a choice whether or not to,
I guess, dig deep into that partof it or just focus on.
You know, the more thrillingparts of the book, you know?
(24:57):
And I think that that's why itworks so well, because readers
are gonna have a differentinterpretation.
Some readers will read that and,and really connect to the
thematic elements.
And then other readers willconnect to the fact that at the
end of the day, it is athriller.
And they, as long as they feltthrilled, then it's considered a
success.
You know?
But I think that the.
(25:19):
You know, the, the mostcomprehensive reading is to
appreciate both and recognizehow yes, the thriller is a
vehicle to explore much deeperissues.
That if you are writing it in amore, you know, literary way or
the story revolved around justmaybe domestic elements and it
had nothing to do with crime, itwould feel like a very, very
(25:41):
different story.
David Gwyn (25:42):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (25:42):
But I think because you have.
A character with a singularfocus of getting justice, right?
It's easy for people to followthat, and it's easy for people
to get behind that because whodoesn't want to solve a crime?
Who doesn't want to get justicefor a victim?
You know, it taps into, I thinkI would say, I don't know if
(26:05):
it's safe to say, but almost auniversal, if it's such a thing
exists, a universal goodness inus where we still.
Many of us can still recognizecrimes and recognize horrible
things and realize, Hmm, that'snot good.
Someone should do somethingabout that.
David Gwyn (26:24):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (26:24):
know?
David Gwyn (26:25):
Yeah,
Aaron Philip Clark (26:26):
and so I, I think that it's still enough
people out there who have thatkind of mindset and are
disturbed by the things thathappen to other people.
David Gwyn (26:37):
yeah.
No, I love that.
I I, I, I think that's soimportant.
And, and like I mentioned kindof as we started this, this
conversation around themes, I, Ifeel like it's something that,
like I thriller writers shouldbe thinking about you know,
whether, whether you're new tothis game or, or you've been
around, like you, I think theones that tend to stay and the
ones that tend to findreadership are the ones that
(26:58):
have something going on, youknow, and like you mentioned.
You don't, it doesn't have to beheavy handed.
It doesn't have to be superovert.
It, it just has to havesomething that sticks with, with
readers as we're going.
So yeah.
So I, I just have a couple quickquestions on, on the wrap up
here.
So just real quick, like what,what are you working on now?
What are you working on thesedays?
Aaron Philip Clark (27:18):
Yeah.
So right now I am working on thefourth Trevor Finnegan novel.
And that is the Blues for theDead.
It may be the last one I, Idon't know, right.
I'm writing it in such a waywhere it is leading toward
probably the last one.
But who knows?
You know I think Walter Mosleyhas tried to kill Eazy Rollins
(27:38):
off like twice, you know, he'scoming back.
So I don't know you, who knowshow long term it fitting in will
go for, but you know, the novelpicks up years later after the
Bluest night and, trevor's in adifferent place in his life.
So, you know, he and s aremarried now.
He has a, a baby on the way inaddition to his, his daughter
with Tory.
And you know, his agency is, isgoing somewhat strong.
(28:02):
He's still in many ways workingthe case that is uncovered in
the Bluest Knight.
It's kind of the aftermath ofthat case.
And so he's still working to getjustice and he's kind of become
almost a celebrity a little bit.
Because of this.
So he finds himself on, youknow, news programs and Dateline
and things like that, you know,talking about, you know, what
(28:23):
happened in Malibu in, in theBluest night.
And, and you know, he's workingwith the FBI and he's kind of
this consulted.
But he finds himself he, hefinds himself at the, at the
bullseye of a, of a verypowerful young tech, CEO who is
a sociopath and this, this kindof tech bro.
(28:45):
It starts to toy with Trevor'slife in a way that he's never
experienced before and reallystarts to threaten him.
Not necessarily with the idea ofphysical violence, but literally
disrupting someone's life somuch that they can't function.
And threatening his business,and he wants Trevor to do these
things for him.
(29:05):
Otherwise he's going to, youknow, potentially tank his, his
PI firm.
And so Trevor is, has to contendwith that.
And as Trevor digs deeper,deeper into this person he
realizes that this person may bethe worst individual he's ever
come across.
And Trevor has come across somehorrible people, but this.
This guy may be the worst andhas never, you know faced
(29:28):
justice for anything that he'sdone throughout his entire life.
And so, you know, he's beenprotected.
And so this is the, this will bethe kind of the first time
Trevor sees someone with such alegacy of violence in, in
violence in a variety of ways.
Not just physical, but justcreating harm
David Gwyn (29:47):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (29:48):
it, you know, they can.
And so, you know, it, it's,it's, it's, it's gonna be some
shockers in it, you know, somebeloved characters Might meet
their end.
David Gwyn (29:59):
caught up, right?
It sounds
Aaron Philip Clark (30:00):
People have time to get caught up.
For sure.
You know?
And I encourage people, youknow, to, to, to get caught up.
and that's the thing with thebooks though, you know, I, I try
to write them in such a waywhere you could, you can.
Start with either book andstill, you know, enjoy the story
and be fine.
But I think to really get themost out of it and to see
Trevor's growth as a character,you know, naturally, you know,
(30:21):
you would wanna start withnumber one, you know, under
color of law and see where he,where he's able to go.
I will say this though.
I, I, Trevor will have as closeto a happy ending as possible
for him, for him and his family.
'cause I do not want, you know,he's not gonna die.
I take that off the table, youknow.
He's not gonna die, but youknow, he will get, get, things
(30:43):
will be taken from him.
There will be loss, but at theend of the day, you know, Trevor
will, will prevail and, and gethis happy ending.
David Gwyn (30:52):
Nice.
That's awesome.
Aaron Philip Clark (30:53):
I
David Gwyn (30:53):
yeah, my last question for you is just where
can people find you?
Where can people look you up?
Aaron Philip Clark (30:57):
yeah.
So my website is Aaron PhilipClark dot com.
You can also find me on socialmedia.
And that's at real APC books.
And that's on Twitter.
And Facebook is just AaronPhilip Clark.
And then I, my ex account iskind of on hiatus.
You know, I, I don't really postthere, but I at least kind of
(31:19):
update it.
But you can find me there atreal a PC books as well.
David Gwyn (31:23):
Yeah.
Very cool.
Aaron, as always, man, this is,this was great.
So much fun to talk to you.
I learned a lot as a, as awriter.
And, and it, like I mentioned,,these conversations with you,
really make me think more deeplyabout, about the work that
you're doing and the booksyou're writing.
So I appreciate you.
Thanks for hanging out.
Aaron Philip Clark (31:38):
The thank you, man.
It's always great.
So today on the Thriller 1 0 1 podcast, I'm
(00:01):
joined by Aaron Philip Clark,USA, today bestselling novelist,
screenwriter, professor, andhost of the Culture Point
Podcast.
Aaron's stories blend thisreally cool atmosphere with
themes of like, race justice,redemption.
We've had the opportunity totalk a few times.
I always love talking to Aaron'cause he provides so much great
advice for, for writers.
But I think also.
(00:22):
he's one of the writers that Ilisten to who, when I hear his
interview, it makes me read hiswork more deeply, which I think
is super cool.
And so if you listen to thispodcast and you, and, and you
like this conversation withAaron, which as I'm sure you
will I'll link to Aaron's otherconversations from the further
one one podcast down in thedescription, so you can check
that out.
Today we're talking about hislatest novel, the Bluest Knight.
Which follows Trevor Finnegan ashe investigates a quote, deadly
(00:46):
conspiracy that if he survives,will change him forever.
Aaron, welcome back to theThriller 1 0 1 Podcast.
Aaron Philip Clark (00:53):
Happy to be here.
David Gwyn (00:55):
So tell us before we get any further, I wanna know
what, what is the Bluest nightabout?
Aaron Philip Clark (01:00):
So the Bluest night is, the third
Trevor Finnegan novel.
So it picks up essentiallyreally two weeks after the end
of the second novel, which wasblue like me.
So Trevor has just learned thathe has a, kind of long lost
stepbrother, his father has, hastold him that, you know, he had
this other family and itproduced this child and his
stepbrother Avery is living inNevada and his father has been
(01:22):
in communication with him.
And Avery has decided to comefrom Nevada to California to
meet his beat his father along.
And he's bringing his girlfriendalong with this idea that they
may be, you know, they're gonnaannounce this engagement and
they're gonna get married.
You know, it looks like there'sgonna be this wonderful kind of
family reunion.
The only thing is that hisfather they never make it to his
(01:45):
father.
And Avery's girlfriend is found.
Dead in Malibu.
And Avery is ultimatelydiscovered there as well
David Gwyn (01:53):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (01:53):
Trevor and his father.
And he's been beaten and he canbarely remember anything.
And so he's taken into custodybecause they're not so sure if
he's involved or not.
David Gwyn (02:02):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (02:02):
so pop Finnegan or Sean Finnegan, but
they call him Pop.
Trevor's father is.
In complete denial and doesn'tthink that he could produce, you
know a child who would doanything like that to another
human being.
And so he immediately suspectsthat there's some sort of foul
play going on.
And so with the help of what Icall the kind of modern, fem
(02:24):
fatal being and it, it is coolto have that.
She comes back, but you knowCassandra Boyle, her return.
As this Malibu resident theykind of lean on her because
she's local.
And she lets them stay there asthey kind of investigate this
case.
And then the deeper they get,the more they realize that
there's something incrediblyinsidious happening in Malibu.
(02:47):
And that you know, thesecommunities, these homogenous
communities where everyonebelieves that there's this,
this.
Level of safety where you don'teven have to lock your door.
Maybe that exists for somepeople, but not for all people.
And so you know, very much thestory is, is examining that
notion of what what may lurkjust below the surface of a
(03:08):
place that we believe to be aparadise.
David Gwyn (03:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, you, you set us right upnicely to, to have these
conversations around settingand, and character and theme,
which are the things that I, Ialways love to talk to you about
and, and things I wanted to, todive in here.
Let, let's start with character,because I think this is an
interesting one.
I feel like Because of who'sinvolved in this particular
story, there's an added level ofsuspense and stakes.
(03:33):
C can you just talk about likehow you balance the kinda
emotional family aspect herewith a crime plot that you have
to kind of keep the pace moving?
Aaron Philip Clark (03:43):
Well, yeah, I mean I always knew that Trevor
was gonna team up with hisfather and.
That was kind of the idea ofhaving this very, two great
investigators, but theirapproach to work is completely
different and his father has alot of baggage.
So, you know, in some ways hisfather antagonizes him a great
deal but they have to worktogether.
(04:03):
And so I, I knew that that wasgonna kind of be at the heart of
it, but I also, you know, I, Ilook at it as yes, Trevor has
probably had, you know, hundredsof other cases, right?
But.
I look at it where if I'mwriting a book, it's about the
case that's gonna change him themost.
David Gwyn (04:21):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (04:21):
know, so it could be you know, I could, I
could have written it in the waywhere, you know, you have some,
some f infantile who walks inand says, I need your help.
And you know, that kind ofclassic paradigm that we've
seen.
But to me, I'm not thatinterested.
In that, you know, I'm moreinterested in the cases that are
really going to have the mostimpact on him as a character.
(04:43):
And I, and I push Trevor to theedge, you know, I mean, I, I, I
mean, you know, some people saythey, they have so much pity on
him sometimes, you know, peoplesay, oh my gosh, what else can
happen to this guy?
I say, well, you know, that'sthe idea is that, you know,
unfortunately for Trevor, he's abit of a lightning rod for
chaos.
And I think, you know, but thereason he is, is because he's
(05:05):
oftentimes the only person whocan solve these cases, and he's
the only person who canwithstand some of this.
And so that's why he's chosen ina way to kind of be the champion
and the voice for people who aredown voiceless and may not get
justice if it, if it isn't forhim stepping in and, and, and
really forcing that justice.
(05:25):
And so, you know, that's kind ofhow I look at it.
And all the other charactersare, are you know, I don't know
if I can say that there's anynecessarily one character who
is, is good, you know, whateverthat means, you know?
And so I, I really treat them asliterary humans.
I mean, all of them have theirown baggage.
They're all.
You know, keeping secrets fromeach other.
(05:47):
They all have these ulteriormotives.
You know, maybe with exceptionof, of Serta, you know, she's,
she's kind of just, you know,hanging out in, in France, you
know, and, and, and living herlife and, you know, try to do
the best she can for her andimprove her baking skills so she
can come back and, you know, doher thing.
But, you know, other than that,it's, it's, it's, everyone is
(06:09):
very much, after something veryspecific,
David Gwyn (06:12):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (06:13):
you know, and Trevor's comes into conflict
with so much of that because hiswill is incredibly strong and
you know, his desires areincredibly strong.
And so he, he, as he pursuespursues justice anybody who's in
the way of that is, is gonna bekind of the same fate.
David Gwyn (06:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.
And, and I, I always love askingyou craft questions.
You've got that, that writereducator background.
So you know, I, I'm sure youknew coming in that, that I was
gonna ask you a few, you weren'tgonna get outta here without me
asking some craft questions.
'cause I,'cause I always loveyour answers, so.
What advice would you have forwriters who want to weave in
like that personal relationshipspart into their thriller, but
(06:55):
without slowing down the story?
Like, how can, how can we aswriters build in that emotional
piece, especially when it comesto like family relationships or
other relationships, butmaintain the kind of like pacing
of that's required for, from agenre like this.
Aaron Philip Clark (07:11):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's all about
determining how much of thatwill work for the story.
You know, and the idea is thatit's not, so if we're talking
about from the standpoint of aninvestigator, or let's say, you
know, a, a, a police detectiveor a pi you have to think, okay,
well what aspects of the crimeitself are going to weigh
(07:31):
heavily on the detective?
David Gwyn (07:34):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (07:34):
So you, it's not so much about how the, you
know, the, I think Womba said itright.
It's not about how the.
How the detective works, thecases, how the case works, the
detective.
Right.
So the idea is I take that sameapproach when it comes to the
personal, when it comes to thefriends or family or significant
other or romantic relationship,how does that relationship work?
(07:57):
The detective as well?
You know, what aspects therenow?
It could, it could go eitherway.
It could be that thatrelationship that that detective
has with that other personoutside of the case is a place
of solace,
David Gwyn (08:08):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (08:09):
know?
Maybe it's where they could goand they could take a break from
the case, or maybe it simplyjust adds another layer of
stress that the person now hasto deal with.
It just, it just depends.
But the idea for, to assure thatit doesn't slow down the action
and the pacing of the novel isto make sure that it's woven in,
in a very natural way whichmeans that the, those other
(08:29):
characters have to have somesort of role you know in the
story.
You know, whether it's the, thefriendly bartender, you know,
who, you know, maybe, you know,your detective doesn't have an
office, so he uses the bar andthe, you know, bartender, you
know, takes the messages for,you know, whatever it is.
But Elise, it, it's part of thestory.
You know, it requires the, theprotagonist, your, you know,
(08:51):
your detective character or, oryou know, at least your, your
hero if you will to have tointeract with that person.
You know, throughout the story.
David Gwyn (08:59):
Yeah.
That's cool.
I, I, I think that's reallyinteresting.
I, I love the term literaryhumans that you used.
I think that is like such areally cool term for.
Rethinking how we think aboutcharacters, because I think
sometimes people think ofcharacters as characters, and so
they have this kind of rigid ofwhat they're capable of and what
they should do for the plot.
(09:19):
I think I run into that too,like, you know, the plot is a
certain way, so you're trying tolike jam a character into a
plot.
But sometimes thinking of themas like literary humans where
they have their own ideas aboutwhat, where things are going,
and sometimes you just, you justhave to go with them.
I think is super cool.
So let's talk the Californiacoast because you, you've been
hanging out there in your booksnow for a little while.
(09:40):
And so this setting, does itfeel like you'd write it in your
sleep or is it more like you'retrying to reinvent it every
time?
Aaron Philip Clark (09:47):
Yeah, I mean, it's a mixture of both.
So I think that the, the.
Kind of tried and true elementsof the California coast are
always gonna be there, right?
I mean, you got the Pacific, yougot wonderful views, you know,
you're gonna have the nicesunset.
You know, all of that is there.
But I think the task of, of awriter, when you're writing
about a familiar place, is totry to identify something that
(10:09):
that only you kind ofexperience.
You know, like I, I feel like,you know, it's.
When I go to, you know,different beaches in California,
each one has its own identity.
And so, you know, Venice is verydifferent than Malibu, you know.
But it also is one of thosethings where, you know, because
I'm writing from my ownexperience I kind of know those
(10:30):
communities in a way.
So it's kind of like you know,one of the times I had gone to
Malibu I was helping a friend.
It was in grad school and he waspurchasing a, a couch.
And so, you know, it's pitchblack up there.
I mean, you can't see anything.
So we're driving along and, youknow, they got these signs that
say like, be careful becausethe, the deer crossing and all,
every other kind of animal upthere.
(10:51):
And so we kept going up and upthis hill, right?
So we get to this little hiddencommunity and you know, we park
and he had a Toyota four runner.
So we were able to kind of fit,we were gonna be able to fit
the, the couch in there andeverything.
And so we weren't sure whichhouse.
Was the right house.
So he called.
And so, you know, the personcame out, you know, and it's
(11:13):
like a pitch Black Street.
All you see is like the light goon, right?
And I was like, man, this iseerie.
And so in the, and there hadbeen like this kind of.
Mist kind of fog that hadsettled up there, you know, and
then all of a sudden you kind ofsee this person come out of the,
the house and then comes up andsays, oh, you know, you guys
here for the couch?
You're like, yeah, you know,we're here for the couch.
(11:35):
You know, I just want to getoutta that.
I was like, can we, you know,and most people be like, you
know, it's a super safecommunity.
You shouldn't feel that way.
And I was like, no.
It felt, you know, like as ifthere was some underlining, you
know, kind of danger there.
And before I knew it.
As we were interacting with theperson who was selling us the
couch all the other lights onthe block started coming on, and
(11:56):
then people start coming out andnext thing you know, there's
people in the middle of thestreet.
And it's just all over thiscouch, you know?
And so then they're, and they'reasking, oh, you know, they're
having this whole conversationand they're, you know, they say,
oh, asking us all thesequestions, like, oh, where do
you guys go to school?
And, you know, and I was like,and it is just, it was
completely odd, you know, but,and some people would say, well,
hey, that's just, you know, veryfriendly neighborhood.
(12:19):
And I think it, it, it very wellcould be.
But for me, coming from a placewhere, you know, you might talk
to one or two neighbors,
David Gwyn (12:26):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (12:26):
you know, but you don't, the whole block,
you don't know,
David Gwyn (12:29):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (12:30):
it was just so interesting.
And they were having these fullfledged conversations and this
was like 10 o'clock at night andyou know, and they're, and
they're, and they're, you know,they're coming out on robes and
stuff.
David Gwyn (12:40):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (12:40):
I was like, okay, this.
You know, this is interesting.
You know, there's something veryinteresting here where
everyone's in everyone'sbusiness, you know, and they
know everything about eachother, you know?
But at the same time, it wasvery eerie a little bit, you
know?
David Gwyn (12:55):
I think that's so interesting the way you're kind
of playing with the setting.
You know, when people hearMalibu, they don't necessarily
jump to that type of experienceand that type of feeling.
And I think it's really coolthat you're, you're kind of
playing with that in some wayswith your readers.
And I think that's super cool.
And so I, I kind of wanna talkyou, you kind of led us right to
this, which is the noir elementsof your novels.
(13:17):
It's kind of like a hallmark of,of some of the work that you do.
Talk a little bit about what youlove about kind of infusing noir
into the, into the writing thatyou've done.
Aaron Philip Clark (13:26):
Yeah, I mean, I love playing, you know,
the, the essence of nomar isthe, the light in the dark,
right?
So I love playing with this ideathat on the surface, something
is pristine, something isbeautiful but there's something
rotten beneath that.
And so you know, Trevor says itin the book, you know, there's
no.
Such thing as a paradise,there's no place that one could
(13:48):
escape to.
As long as people are committinghomicides, you know, and doing
horrible things to each otherfor whatever the reason may be,
there is no place that you couldgo.
David Gwyn (14:00):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (14:00):
because unfortunately this is a, a
characteristic of human beings.
And so, you know, when I thinkabout Malibu and I, I think of.
Of the, you know, the coastlineand I think of, you know, the,
the beautiful beach, you know,and, and, you know, and the, and
the idea of the sunset and the,the, the notion of the sunset
(14:24):
having taken, you know, it'lltake 10 minutes, you know,
beautiful sunset.
But for that 10 minutes, youknow, you're, you're witnessing
all these brilliant colors andit's just like the spectacle.
And then after that 10 minutes,it's, it's dark, and it's pitch
black and there's nothing outthere.
And, you know, this idea thatanything could happen, you know,
to you, I mean, if you're on atrail and you take the wrong
(14:44):
turn or you just simplydisappear in a canyon there, you
know, it's, it's that idea ofwhat darkness falls.
You don't know what lingers.
And so I just felt like thatthat's such a noir sort of you
know, sort of, sort of place,because it's, and it's under
policed, you know, I mean, allthey have is, you know, you have
the, the sheriff's station butthere's not many deputies police
(15:05):
in that area because it's thisnotion that it's low crime,
David Gwyn (15:08):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (15:08):
know, so anything could be existing and
happening out there that couldeasily go under the radar of law
enforcement Smith.
David Gwyn (15:14):
Yeah.
It's such a writer's mind.
I think I just like took a walkthrough an experienced writer's
mind of, of thinking through asetting, right?
Like thinking through, you know,why a setting.
I think that's the other thingtoo.
I think sometimes.
Writers, especially young or ornewer writers, they're like, ah,
the setting is the setting.
Like, I'll just pick here orI'll just pick here.
And I think listening to youdescribe why it had to be set in
(15:37):
Malibu is such an importantlesson for, for writers to learn
that, that there is the perfectsetting and there's a reason.
There needs to be a reason.
Your setting's not aplaceholder.
Right.
I think that's so important thatfrom, from what I'm, I'm getting
from listening to you and thelast, the last.
Thing, larger thing that I, I'dlove to talk to you about is
your themes.
I, I think you know, you writeso thematically I'm a, I I think
(16:00):
it's incredibly impor importantto talk about themes and
thrillers.
I think.
too often we see thrillerwriters as a genre, generally
speaking, who overlook theimportance of themes.
They're just trying to writesomething pacey and get it out
there and write their one book ayear and get it out.
And like,
Aaron Philip Clark (16:15):
Yeah.
David Gwyn (16:15):
and, you know, I love a fun read, don't get me
wrong.
Like, I'm fine with somethingpacey like to just kind of turn
through.
But I really like when there'ssubstance and I'm I'm trying to
do more to highlight some of theimportant themes that thrillers
are taking on.
your, your novels are a greatexample of this.
You know, they explore largerthemes alongside the kind of
crime elements that, thatyou're, that you're using as
(16:36):
plot, as plot elements.
So and we've had a chance totalk about this before.
So again, for people who arelistening, you know, go, go
check out those conversations.
'cause I, I love listening toyour approach.
To themes and big ideas in yourwork.
So kind of my, my startingpoint, general question with all
that, that preamble there isjust how, how do you approach
themes without letting themovershadow suspense?
(16:58):
Like, how are you balancingthese in, in your story?
Aaron Philip Clark (17:01):
Yeah, I mean, I, I, my goal is to not
write, the didactic novel,right?
The idea is that when someone'sreading, they don't necessarily
want to feel as if someone islecturing them or, you know,
preaching to them.
And I think by focusing on thestory itself and letting the
other elements be very organicas they kind of unfold, you
(17:25):
know, it's going to happennaturally.
I mean, the, the.
The inspiration for this storywas, you know, the real life
disappearance of MatriceRichardson who she was a, a
Covina resident and shedisappeared in Malibu and then
was ultimately discovered inlike this really remote area.
(17:46):
And to this day, no one knows
David Gwyn (17:48):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (17:48):
what happened to her.
And she was supposedlysurrounded by marijuana plants
that later the sheriffdepartment claimed that.
They thought there was a carteloperating in Malibu, had been
growing marijuana.
But the sheriff was the lastperson to see her alive.
David Gwyn (18:04):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (18:05):
you know, she, they picked her up.
She went to a, they believe shewas potentially having a mental
health crisis, so she drove upto Malibu.
And she didn't have any money.
So she went to one of the localcafes there and she ordered and
she ate.
And then when it was time topay, she clearly didn't have any
money.
The staff were really torn.
They weren't sure if they wantedto call the police or not.
(18:27):
They decided, most of the staffdecided not to, and were
actually thinking about justtaking her, seeing if they could
take her to the sheriff'sstation or take her someplace
safe.
David Gwyn (18:37):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (18:37):
was one staff member who decided to
call.
And went into the back and madethe call.
The sheriff shows up, takes herinto custody.
They drive her to the CalabasasMalibu Sheriff's Station where
she's there.
And then she is able to make acall to her mother.
Her mother said, I, there's noway I can get up to you, you
know, from, from Covina.
(18:58):
At this time, she, you know, thebest thing I, I can do is
probably get you in the morning.
And from there, we don't knowwhat transpired, but she
ultimately was, was let go.
And she's seen on camera walkingwith the sheriff de deputy to
that parking lot.
And that is the last known imageof her.
But throughout that night,people had said that they had
seen her in backyards andwandering, but no one stopped
(19:21):
to, to help.
And it's, you know.
She disappears, days go by andthen she's ultimately
discovered.
But, you know, they weren't evenreally looking for her.
David Gwyn (19:32):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (19:33):
you know, the sheriff was kind of like,
Hey, people come up here all thetime and you get runaways and
this, that, and the other.
You know, and so you know,that's where all a lot of this
kind of came from.
So those themes are alreadygonna be packed in because
that's really where my head wasat when I was writing,
David Gwyn (19:47):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (19:48):
know, this idea of, you know, what
happened, especially.
Very vulnerable populations.
I mean, and, and just the thingsthat happen to people of color
in general, but especially blackwomen, you know, is, is, is
haunting.
And when there's no desire tolook for the, for them, you know
it, it kind of says everything,you know?
(20:09):
And so, and it's happening now.
I mean, so we, so far, you know.
This year, I believe, I want tosay it's in Texas.
Three black women have beenfound in a near this kind of
ravine in Texas.
And their bodies have been foundthere.
And, and they keep saying that,you know, these are natural
causes as if someone wereswimming there or they're
suicides.
I mean, some of this is just,you know, there's no desire to
(20:31):
dig deeper.
And so, you know, I, I thinkthat, since that was the really,
the, the, for me was theoverarching theme of the novel.
It's really the things thathappen of just women in general
but especially women of color.
And the fact that just existingis already putting them in
danger when they're in certainareas and having to interact
(20:53):
with certain people.
David Gwyn (20:54):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (20:55):
and so, you know, that was, that was really
at the, at the heart of it, youknow, and that the, this idea
that you know, these crimes canhappen and things can, and
people can literally just bedisappeared and there may not be
a desire there to find them.
And there's every reason in theworld, you know, we don't have
the budget to extend a searchthat long.
(21:17):
Well, you know.
They put the person on trial,right?
The idea that, well, thisperson, in, in Ma Theresa's
situation, she was a collegegraduate.
but she also worked at this Iguess it was a, a exotic dance
club LGBT Q, exotic Dance club.
And, you know, they were tryingto say, well, you know, maybe
someone, you know, saw her atthis club or did something and,
(21:39):
you know, and, and.
Who knows.
Right?
And they, they were trying tospin it so many different ways.
Anything to divert from the factthat the sheriff department had
the last known contact with her.
So, you know, it's, it's, it, Inormally start there.
I mean, for me to write a novel,I have to really.
Find something that I just findso upsetting.
(22:01):
You know, I know it's odd tosay, but I write from a place of
frustration in the beginning,you know?
And really when I think aboutcertain types of injustice,
David Gwyn (22:10):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (22:11):
really what fuels me.
to write a.
David Gwyn (22:13):
Yeah, no, I love that.
(23:01):
And, and, and like I mentionedat, at the outset, I feel like
feel like this genre doesn'talways.
Appreciate some of the like,thematic work that's being done.
And I think because it is seenas like an escape, it can be
seen as like an an escapistgenre where it's like, oh, I'm
just gonna read about thesepeople who are going a crazy
(23:21):
thing that happened.
And like, that's, it's, that'sit, it's the end.
Aaron Philip Clark (23:25):
Hmm.
David Gwyn (23:25):
I think I find the one, the stories that really
stick with me are the ones thathave some weight to them.
And so what do you think it islike.
What do you think it is aboutthese genres that are, that
actually are a really goodvehicle for exploring themes and
social justice and, and thesekind of like bigger ideas, why
is this genre so good for it?
(23:46):
Even if it is maybe underusedfor, for these big ideas.
Aaron Philip Clark (23:49):
Because everybody loves a mystery.
You know, everybody, you know,even what, what I guess the
publishing world will considerliterature
David Gwyn (23:59):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (24:00):
often has an element of mystery there.
David Gwyn (24:02):
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (24:03):
You know, you think about the Goldfinch.
Yeah.
It's crime, it's mystery there.
David Gwyn (24:08):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (24:08):
so I think that that hooks people.
And so you, it gives you a levelof freedom because you know that
it's gonna entertain peoplebecause they're thinking so
people are having, they, they'reactively trying to figure out
who did it, what's gonna happennext?
How is the protagonist the hero?
(24:29):
Going to escape this situation.
That's where their head is at.
David Gwyn (24:33):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (24:33):
at the same time, you know, that's the, the
subtext of what's really goingon.
Right.
What is the overall, you know,overarching theme of the work
can easily be there and peoplehave a choice whether or not to,
I guess, dig deep into that partof it or just focus on.
You know, the more thrillingparts of the book, you know?
(24:57):
And I think that that's why itworks so well, because readers
are gonna have a differentinterpretation.
Some readers will read that and,and really connect to the
thematic elements.
And then other readers willconnect to the fact that at the
end of the day, it is athriller.
And they, as long as they feltthrilled, then it's considered a
success.
You know?
But I think that the.
(25:19):
You know, the, the mostcomprehensive reading is to
appreciate both and recognizehow yes, the thriller is a
vehicle to explore much deeperissues.
That if you are writing it in amore, you know, literary way or
the story revolved around justmaybe domestic elements and it
had nothing to do with crime, itwould feel like a very, very
(25:41):
different story.
David Gwyn (25:42):
Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark (25:42):
But I think because you have.
A character with a singularfocus of getting justice, right?
It's easy for people to followthat, and it's easy for people
to get behind that because whodoesn't want to solve a crime?
Who doesn't want to get justicefor a victim?
You know, it taps into, I thinkI would say, I don't know if
(26:05):
it's safe to say, but almost auniversal, if it's such a thing
exists, a universal goodness inus where we still.
Many of us can still recognizecrimes and recognize horrible
things and realize, Hmm, that'snot good.
Someone should do somethingabout that.
David Gwyn (26:24):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (26:24):
know?
David Gwyn (26:25):
Yeah,
Aaron Philip Clark (26:26):
and so I, I think that it's still enough
people out there who have thatkind of mindset and are
disturbed by the things thathappen to other people.
David Gwyn (26:37):
yeah.
No, I love that.
I I, I, I think that's soimportant.
And, and like I mentioned kindof as we started this, this
conversation around themes, I, Ifeel like it's something that,
like I thriller writers shouldbe thinking about you know,
whether, whether you're new tothis game or, or you've been
around, like you, I think theones that tend to stay and the
ones that tend to findreadership are the ones that
(26:58):
have something going on, youknow, and like you mentioned.
You don't, it doesn't have to beheavy handed.
It doesn't have to be superovert.
It, it just has to havesomething that sticks with, with
readers as we're going.
So yeah.
So I, I just have a couple quickquestions on, on the wrap up
here.
So just real quick, like what,what are you working on now?
What are you working on thesedays?
Aaron Philip Clark (27:18):
Yeah.
So right now I am working on thefourth Trevor Finnegan novel.
And that is the Blues for theDead.
It may be the last one I, Idon't know, right.
I'm writing it in such a waywhere it is leading toward
probably the last one.
But who knows?
You know I think Walter Mosleyhas tried to kill Eazy Rollins
(27:38):
off like twice, you know, he'scoming back.
So I don't know you, who knowshow long term it fitting in will
go for, but you know, the novelpicks up years later after the
Bluest night and, trevor's in adifferent place in his life.
So, you know, he and s aremarried now.
He has a, a baby on the way inaddition to his, his daughter
with Tory.
And you know, his agency is, isgoing somewhat strong.
(28:02):
He's still in many ways workingthe case that is uncovered in
the Bluest Knight.
It's kind of the aftermath ofthat case.
And so he's still working to getjustice and he's kind of become
almost a celebrity a little bit.
Because of this.
So he finds himself on, youknow, news programs and Dateline
and things like that, you know,talking about, you know, what
(28:23):
happened in Malibu in, in theBluest night.
And, and you know, he's workingwith the FBI and he's kind of
this consulted.
But he finds himself he, hefinds himself at the, at the
bullseye of a, of a verypowerful young tech, CEO who is
a sociopath and this, this kindof tech bro.
(28:45):
It starts to toy with Trevor'slife in a way that he's never
experienced before and reallystarts to threaten him.
Not necessarily with the idea ofphysical violence, but literally
disrupting someone's life somuch that they can't function.
And threatening his business,and he wants Trevor to do these
things for him.
(29:05):
Otherwise he's going to, youknow, potentially tank his, his
PI firm.
And so Trevor is, has to contendwith that.
And as Trevor digs deeper,deeper into this person he
realizes that this person may bethe worst individual he's ever
come across.
And Trevor has come across somehorrible people, but this.
This guy may be the worst andhas never, you know faced
(29:28):
justice for anything that he'sdone throughout his entire life.
And so, you know, he's beenprotected.
And so this is the, this will bethe kind of the first time
Trevor sees someone with such alegacy of violence in, in
violence in a variety of ways.
Not just physical, but justcreating harm
David Gwyn (29:47):
Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark (29:48):
it, you know, they can.
And so, you know, it, it's,it's, it's, it's gonna be some
shockers in it, you know, somebeloved characters Might meet
their end.
David Gwyn (29:59):
caught up, right?
It sounds
Aaron Philip Clark (30:00):
People have time to get caught up.
For sure.
You know?
And I encourage people, youknow, to, to, to get caught up.
and that's the thing with thebooks though, you know, I, I try
to write them in such a waywhere you could, you can.
Start with either book andstill, you know, enjoy the story
and be fine.
But I think to really get themost out of it and to see
Trevor's growth as a character,you know, naturally, you know,
(30:21):
you would wanna start withnumber one, you know, under
color of law and see where he,where he's able to go.
I will say this though.
I, I, Trevor will have as closeto a happy ending as possible
for him, for him and his family.
'cause I do not want, you know,he's not gonna die.
I take that off the table, youknow.
He's not gonna die, but youknow, he will get, get, things
(30:43):
will be taken from him.
There will be loss, but at theend of the day, you know, Trevor
will, will prevail and, and gethis happy ending.
David Gwyn (30:52):
Nice.
That's awesome.
Aaron Philip Clark (30:53):
I
David Gwyn (30:53):
yeah, my last question for you is just where
can people find you?
Where can people look you up?
Aaron Philip Clark (30:57):
yeah.
So my website is Aaron PhilipClark dot com.
You can also find me on socialmedia.
And that's at real APC books.
And that's on Twitter.
And Facebook is just AaronPhilip Clark.
And then I, my ex account iskind of on hiatus.
You know, I, I don't really postthere, but I at least kind of
(31:19):
update it.
But you can find me there atreal a PC books as well.
David Gwyn (31:23):
Yeah.
Very cool.
Aaron, as always, man, this is,this was great.
So much fun to talk to you.
I learned a lot as a, as awriter.
And, and it, like I mentioned,,these conversations with you,
really make me think more deeplyabout, about the work that
you're doing and the booksyou're writing.
So I appreciate you.
Thanks for hanging out.
Aaron Philip Clark (31:38):
The thank you, man.
It's always great.
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