June 4, 2025 • 27 mins
Your opening page has 30 seconds to hook an agent or it's as good as a rejection.
Literary agent Amy Nielsen reveals the cliché openings that kill manuscripts, the scene structure 90% of authors get wrong, and her "General-Specific-Personal" formula that eliminates info-dumping while building irresistible voice.
What You'll Learn:
- How to avoid cliché openings that scream "amateur"
- A literary agent's simple test to tell if your opening is actually a scene
- The inciting incident strategy that finds your perfect entry point
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- Literary Agent Amy Nielsen on How to Write a Query Letter that Gets Attention
- 90% of Writers Make THESE Writing Mistakes Interview with Ex-Literary Agent Karyn Fischer
Get the list of 125+ Literary Agents who rep Thriller, Mystery, Suspense, and Crime Fiction
Study the Opening Paragraphs of the Top Authors Writing Thrillers Right Now
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Gwyn (00:00):
So let's talk about opening pages here.
Amy Nielsen (00:03):
I want to talk about some of the things that
I've seen in opening pages thatyou may want to be on the alert
for.
And again, you're going to findthe books all over your library
that have done all of thesethings.
But especially if you're adebut, there's less wiggle room
for us to do some of theseriskier moves.
And you're not on a deadline.
(00:23):
You know, some published authorswill have a deadline.
And so the book will go out whenit's really not a hundred
percent as polished as it couldbe because there's their editor
knows that they're going to have60, 000, you know, pre orders
the second it goes up.
And so why would you spend ayear editing?
But when you have the time, youwant it as polished as possible.
(00:44):
And so here's a couple ofthings.
The first thing I'm gonna talkabout is cliche openings.
And I know we love our clicheopenings, but they're cliche for
a reason.
And here's why they'reproblematic.
Last week, I think it was lastweek, I read three queries or
three opening pages.
And all three, the first scene,was the main character driving
somewhere by themselves.
(01:06):
And so, again, you know, there'sthree separate books opening
exactly the same way.
So those are the types ofcliches you want to avoid.
Especially like, so if yourcharacter's driving alone, you
know, where's the tension andwhat's happening and what's,
what's happening on the page,you know, they're probably just
thinking a lot of stuff and infodumping.
(01:26):
So, you know driving isn't theonly type of cliche opening and
you can do it.
If it's the absolute perfectentry point for your story and
you're convinced of that, justmake it super unique.
And all three of thesecharacters driving in this
opening scene of these books Iwas reading, were all driving to
(01:47):
a location and just thinking abunch of stuff.
So it wasn't, it's not the mostcompelling place to start unless
you can make it compelling.
And I'm going to talk to you alittle bit about.
scenes and stuff later, but acouple other kind of cliche
openings, and you can Googlethis and find them, and we as
agents know them, so we knowwhen we open up.
(02:07):
A submission, if it starts witha cliche opening, we're like,
okay, we've seen this threetimes already this week unless
you make it super fresh, whichyou can do, but some other types
of cliche openings to thinkabout are weather, you know,
it's a dark and stormy night inroute, and that's, you know,
kind of the driving, but it alsocould, you know, be in route,
planes, trains, and automobiles,you know, if you're going
(02:30):
somewhere, there's not reallyanything happening unless maybe,
you know, Something happenswhile you're going somewhere.
Funerals can be filled cliche.
Dreams, I just don't start yourmanuscript with a dream because
again, you're kind of trickingthe reader and they don't like
that.
A crowd scene, I do want to seeyour character with a crowd
scene.
Other people, not alone, but ahuge crowd scene can be super,
(02:53):
super confusing entry point intoa story into a story, you know,
like a big birthday party or abig ball or whatever, there's
too many people, you know, weneed to intimately slowly get to
know who we're supposed to careabout, not super slow, but slow
enough, you know, I tell for itto consider an entry point, what
I tell authors is that we'reWhatever your inciting incident
(03:15):
is, and of course that's thething that happens to your main
character that they can never goback to the status quo, that's
when Katniss volunteered to betribute, she could never un
volunteer to be tribute, inromance that's when the two
couple, the two people meet,they can never un meet because
they've already met, so whereveryour inciting incident is, back
up just a bit, That's a greatplace to start still needs to
(03:38):
have tension and all the thingsthat a good scene will have,
but, you know, that's a, that'sa kind of a good way to say,
okay, this is my incitingincident, let me back up a
little bit, and I'm using HungerGames as an example when they
opened the scene with her wakingup, so, so there you go, you
know, it can be done so, youknow, Main character musings are
another cautionary tale with acharacter just kind of in their
(04:00):
head.
Looking in a mirror cansometimes seem like a clever way
to show what the character lookslike and people look in mirrors
all the time.
I would caution not in youropening scene.
And super impactful actionscenes.
Now, In thrillers, we're goingto have action but I, I would
think this is more along thelines of if there isn't a lot of
action in your story and youstart with a lot of action, then
(04:23):
that's kind of misleading readerexpectations.
So that would kind of be what I,what I would be talking about
there.
Any other cliche openings youcan think of?
Mm
David Gwyn (04:31):
No, I think that's a really good list.
I had a conversation with DavidMcCloskey, about his thriller
and he said something that kindof changed the way I think about
thrillers.
And I think Aaron Philip Clarksaid something similar to, which
is if you start your Thriller,especially because we were
talking about thrillers, butany, any story really with a
high intensity action scene.
(04:53):
As readers, sometimes we don'tcare enough about that character
to care whether they get hurt inthat moment or not.
And so I thought it was reallyinteresting he was like, He said
something along the lines of, hedoesn't put them in that life or
death situation until he thinkshe's done the work to have a
reader care about thatcharacter.
(05:15):
And that to me was like soinsightful because I think we
are, we're, as writers,especially writers who are
trying to get agents, you'rebattling that like, back and
forth of like, keep a reader'sattention and keep an agent's
attention.
How do you do it?
Well, throw more action.
You know, make it intense, but Ithink a lot of the work that can
be done is more subtle thanthat.
And I, and I think that thatreally, to your point, is, you
(05:37):
know, avoid the cliches and thenfind an avenue into your story
that makes sense for yourcharacter, not just, you know,
this, it's, it's random, likethis is a thing that's just
gonna happen
Amy Nielsen (05:47):
Well, and that's why if you focus on the inciting
incident and back up just alittle bit, you'll, you'll meet
the character in their naturalenvironment.
It doesn't need to be boring.
But where they are, we're gonnaget a glimpse of to what they
can't go back to, you know.
And what you've said, I've beengiven that advice before too.
And my original draft years ago,I had an author give me some
(06:10):
feedback and he said just that.
I, it was a dual, I had dualtimeline at the time.
I rewrote it before it gotpublished in chronological order
because dual timeline was notthe correct structure for that
story I later found out.
And I started it with a pregnantmain character screaming and
arguing with a boyfriend andthey get into a car and he's
punching the windshield and thecar spins and and that's exactly
(06:33):
what that author told me.
He said, I, I don't know enoughabout this character to care
that it's the situation thatshe's in.
So that's advice that I giveauthors all the time.
I was just reading a manuscriptthe other day and a young woman
becomes a vic is a victim to abad guy in the very first scene
and I knew zero about her.
(06:54):
So I've been given that sameadvice, and it's really, really
good advice.
We do need to care a littleabout the character before
something bad happens to them.
And
David Gwyn (07:03):
Yeah, that's cool.
Amy Nielsen (07:04):
and like with the Hunger Games, that's kind of it,
you know, you do, Care about herbefore you find out that now
she's gonna have to go into thislife or death competition.
David Gwyn (07:14):
Yeah, it is so important and something that I
think thriller writers are we'reguilty of because we want to get
to that.
We want to get to the highintensity that the thrillers are
made for.
But it's it's hard sometimes topull back and be but that's
where I think I think and like Imentioned David McCloskey's book
that I actually read his openingcouple of sentences to him and
(07:35):
we got to talk about it, whichis really cool because what it
did was it was super.
It was super tense, but notaction filled intense, which is
Amy Nielsen (07:43):
Yes I read Lisa Jules.
None of this is true this summerand It's been a while.
I read a lot of books, but Ibelieve her opening scene if
anyone's read that book, it'sfantastic.
Like, oh, love it.
Is this woman having a kind of atense birthday dinner with her
husband.
And she's not a very socialperson.
And she sees this other grouphaving a very jovial birthday
(08:08):
dinner at the restaurant.
You know, she's not in thatcrowd.
So yes, I did say don't startwith a big crowd.
She's over here in thisintimate, you know, dinner with
her husband, but she sees thisbeautiful, confident woman
celebrating her birthday.
And so you feel the tense, butyou're not sure why, of her and
her husband.
You feel her jealousy of thisother woman.
But you don't really understandmuch of what's going on.
(08:31):
And then both women end up inthe bathroom and find out they
have the same birthday.
And that's kind of the premiseof the whole, the story moving
forward.
But it was, it was a perfectentry point because you get just
enough.
You don't even really know who'sthe protagonist, who's the
antagonist at this point.
And it didn't really matter.
You know, you knew it was goingto be someone in that group
(08:51):
because that's who wasintroduced to you.
To you, but that was anexcellent opening.
I really, really enjoyed that.
David Gwyn (08:56):
To your point like something that you don't see
often starting in a restaurantis not overused as an opening,
which I think is another pointto
Amy Nielsen (09:04):
Yeah.
And right.
And that, that, that's somethingthat, you know, fit that
perfectly because those womenneeded to meet like randomly.
You know, it was a way to placethem in a place where they can
meet randomly.
And what better place to meetrandomly than, you know, in the
women's restroom?
David Gwyn (09:20):
Cool.
What else you got for us?
This is, this is great.
Amy Nielsen (09:23):
The next thing I have written, and we kind of
touched on this with a characterin Rout, and I wrote main
character musings.
Show main character interactingwith a handful of other
characters who matter in thestory.
Who we meet first will be whothe reader thinks they should
care about, and it's hard tobuild tension without
characters.
So I have seen some openingswhere you meet a bunch of people
(09:43):
that you never see again, andnot that that's not going to
happen.
It could be a random person atthe restaurant, but we need to
know their name and theirbackstory, you know?
So I would just, a handful ofcharacters, a character alone
can be done well.
It's done well all the time.
I personally don't gravitatetoward stories that start with
the main character bythemselves.
And, and you don't have to haveit.
(10:03):
Obviously, your character isgoing to have time to reflect
and be by themselves later inthe story, but I want to start
feeling tension, like Lisa Jeweldid with that, a woman and her
husband.
Like, we felt a little bit oftension between them, and we
didn't understand it, but it'slike, It was there and you could
tell.
So I really like that.
The other thing that I've seenhappen is openings that aren't a
(10:26):
scene.
Again, it's just description.
And so I have on my website, Ablog post I wrote about what is
a scene and like just aformulaic way to look at it, and
I'll kind of let you know whatthat is.
So this is kind of in the way Idescribe what a scene is.
A scene, something has to behappening.
So if there's a character, afloating head, we don't know
(10:48):
what's happening.
That's not really a scene, eventhough we will have some
interior thoughts.
So, a scene is, well there's twodifferent types, there's like an
action scene and a reaction, andaction doesn't mean something's
exploding.
What that means is, the maincharacter has a goal, there's an
obstacle in their way, there isan outcome, and they either
(11:08):
achieve or they don't achievetheir goal.
So that's basically kind of in anutshell what a scene is.
The reaction scene would be thenext scene, where they react to
the previous scene, make a newgoal, and then go to pursue it.
So you really want to look andsee, do I have, am I starting
with a scene?
Or am I starting with worldbuilding and description and
(11:29):
paragraphs of that sort ofthing?
Which, It isn't compelling forus to read.
You need to know all that, andwe're going to get to how you
get it to the reader in a minutewith another formula that I
absolutely loved.
I didn't come up with this onebut readers read stories for
characters.
We, we love the settings and welove the plot and the action,
but we fall in love with acharacter.
(11:50):
And so, That's who we want tostart with.
We want to start with thatcharacter and then making
decisions, having agency andobstacles in their way, even if
the first goal they have issuper small.
Like in Lisa Jewels, I'll goback to that one, the main
character's goal was to, I wantthis dinner to be over, but I
also want to meet that girlbecause she's intriguing, you
(12:11):
know, and so that was kind oflike what her, they weren't huge
goals, but the main characterhad goals.
And so yes, I think it's reallyimportant to start in the scene.
David Gwyn (12:22):
no, I think that makes a lot of sense and I feel
like too there's so many timesand I'm guilty of this as I
think pretty much every writeris you write what you think is
gonna be the first scene andthen you get to the end of the
book and you're like Oh, wait, Icould cut off the first scene or
maybe two Because it's it'sstuff that you need to get out
You need to know that it's thereBut it's not something that the
reader needs to know right and Ithink that that's so hard I
(12:45):
think it's too I'm a huge fan.
I love Save the Cat.
I do believe in it.
But at the same time, I thinkit's like one of those things
where If you're too rigid tolike that, whatever the
percentages are and stuff, youmiss out on the natural build of
the story.
And like, if you don't need 10percent or whatever that number
is to get to the incitingincident, then don't, don't use
(13:06):
it.
Like cut it there and get, getright
Amy Nielsen (13:07):
The inciting incident can be in various
places.
Sometimes it's on the firstpage, sometimes it's in the
second chapter.
So it needs to go where it needsto go.
You know and I Back to this,this talking about scenes.
I was at a writing day workshopconference last, I think last
April, going again this year inthe Tampa Bay area, and I was on
(13:28):
a first pages panel.
This was fascinating to me, andI think to the authors in the
crowd and that all the authorssubmitted anonymously the first
page of their manuscript, and Iwas on a panel with about seven
or eight agents.
And, We, we, there was anarrator there.
He was an excellent narrator.
He would read.
The manuscript and then asagents would stop reading like
(13:53):
if this was in their inbox, theywould raise their hand when
they'd stop and then we wouldtell why and most often more
than not, the repeated answerover and over again was this
isn't a scene.
This isn't a scene.
And so that's why I put thatthere because it was about 30
different opening pages and thatwas the number one comment from
(14:16):
agents that they would havestopped reading before the end
of the first page because itwasn't a scene, there was
nothing happening.
David Gwyn (14:22):
And it was usually, it was usually a blend of The
goal, I'm assuming it's usuallythe goal setting.
Is that the thing that you seemost to make something, not a
scene?
Because I feel like most peoplehave a character, they have a
setting.
I'm assuming that the thing thatthey're missing in that piece is
the goal.
Is that what you find?
Amy Nielsen (14:39):
I think for when we, what we saw here and it was
all genres and all age ranges, Ithink what we were seeing there
is that there was a lot of worldbuilding and telling and
description and not reallycharacters interacting with each
other on the page.
I think you, it's real quicklyto tell for me, I can just scan
the first few pages of adocument of a manuscript and
(15:01):
tell if it's going to be toomuch info dumping and not enough
scenes, because if I'm not, if Ihave dialogue.
on page one, then more thanlikely there's probably not a
scene.
Again, prologues have a wholedifferent way that they, you
know, a prologue, you can bevery creative with the structure
of a prologue.
But once you get to the, to thechapter one, there is an
(15:22):
expectation that we're going tohave characters interacting with
each other, creating goals andobstacles and, and things like
that.
So that was the number onefeedback from that workshop,
which was really fascinating tome, which is why I.
shared it here.
Now, I am going to talkspecifically about info dumping,
and I am going to give you, Ididn't create this, this is by
Jane Kales, K A L E S but Ifound it when I was researching
(15:47):
how to world build without Infodumping, because people, the
world building that authors dois amazing, and in all stories
you need to world build, whetherit's contemporary, whether it's
fantasy, whether it's thriller,because wherever you're plucking
your reader, they've more thanlikely never been there, and
even if they have been there,We're seeing this through your
(16:07):
character's eyes, and so this ishow what this world building
technique is, so, or, or, a wayto prevent yourself from info
dumping.
So, it's called General SpecificPersonal, and I have an example,
and I'm going to tell you whatthat means, too.
So, Between, you know, like yourscenes, if there's something
(16:30):
that you need to explain, youneed to explain a setting or
whatever, start with a generalstatement, then a specific
statement, and then personal tieit back to the character.
So, I'm going to read you kindof how I did this as an example.
Again, it's not from a book, Ijust made this up, but then I'm
(16:51):
going to show you how it works.
So, North Lake, Florida satsmack dab in the middle of the
state.
No majestic palm tree linedbeaches here.
Instead, sparse palmettos andscrub oaks dotted the interior
landscape.
And despite our close proximity,I'd never set foot onto Disney
property.
So, the general statement is,zooming out, think about that
(17:12):
wide shot, North Lake Floridasat smack dab in the middle of
the state.
One statement, wide shot, thengetting more specific.
No majestic palm tree linedbeaches here.
Instead, sparse palmettos andscrub oaks dotted the interior
landscape.
So now I'm getting, you know,zooming in.
The wide shot, the medium shot,zooming in on the person's
(17:34):
house, and then personal.
And despite our close proximity,I'd never step foot onto Disney
property.
So that is a simplistic waythroughout your manuscript.
I mean, it's formulaic, but Idon't think that repeated use of
this technique would readformulaic, and sometimes you're
going to have maybe twosentences that are general, and
one that's specific, and onethat's personal, but she has a
(17:55):
YouTube video where she explainsthis her description, the
examples that she uses, andagain, they're just examples
weren't my favorite becausethey're a little bit too long,
but she does a fantastic job ofexplaining this general,
specific, personal way toprevent paragraphs of lengthy
info dumping.
So this was four sentences.
(18:15):
that I wrote, that youcompletely see the world
building and that it's personal.
Obviously, the person that'sthinking this isn't real happy
about it.
You know, you can tell by thetone that there's no majestic
palm tree lined beaches, youknow, sparse palmettos, and then
we're close to Disney, but Inever got to go.
(18:36):
So, you know, you kind of getthe tone and the mood.
through the main character,talking about, or thinking about
the setting.
So I, I really, really like thatguideline, and I'm super excited
to see if readers find it asintriguing as I do.
I actually just gave thatfeedback to one of my authors
today, because her manuscripthad a lot of, you know, a
(18:57):
beautiful world building,beautiful, beautiful, beautiful,
but it went on and on and on towhere nothing's happening.
And so readers want to seewhat's happening.
We want to be grounded insetting.
Grounded in time, but we want tosee what's happening.
So we want to get that worldbuilding out there quick and
then move on and then drop alittle bit more of it later.
David Gwyn (19:15):
And one of the things too, that I would just
add to the piece that you wroteand then I think is important
to, to what this is doing isit's also, it's doing multiple
things.
It's setting the scene, but it'salso developing your character's
voice.
Like how does your characterfeel about the setting?
And I think a lot of times whenwe read setting where it isn't
infused with character voice,yeah.
(19:36):
It can feel like it's draggingon because you're just telling
me about the day or this thetrees or this whatever the
weather But if you have acharacter who like looks up at
the Sun and squints becausethey're hungover like okay now
I'm now I've got character withsetting and I think that that
that balance also Could be funfor people to think about like,
(19:56):
okay, how can I?
Zoom out, maybe the zoom outmaybe doesn't have a lot of
character voice, like I think ofall the places that probably
doesn't, but the closer I get tothe, you know, the kind of
character, the more interiorityI should use, and like, I should
be selecting words that reallydevelop my character, because
that, I think, the longer I, themore I talk to agents, and the
(20:18):
longer I read these things, andI'm sure I'm telling you
something that you, you knowalready, you'd scream from the,
from the rooftops, but There areso many mistakes that writers
can make in a book, but voice isthe one that will save a lot of
things.
Like, if your character voicerocks, but there's, it's like a
little bit of slow pacing here.
(20:39):
Or if you're, the ending, itjust needs a little bit of work.
Or, oh, you know, you're notreally building up the setting.
Like, I feel like agents aregoing to take a shot on you as a
writer and they'll be like,well, the voice is great.
I can fix X, Y, and Z.
But that voice and that's thisis a great way of just like you
said getting rid of info dumpingBuilding in voice and making you
(21:00):
seem like you have a greathandle of your writing craft
Yes.
Amy Nielsen (21:07):
with the voice of his character and it did need
work.
We are on submission now andgetting great feedback.
But I just, I did, I fell inlove with the voice.
It was snarky and sassy and, youknow, there, there was a lot of
banter and, and it'd be so niceif we could teach you how to
find that voice.
But, but that, that's reallyhard.
And that's where when you arezooming in to that character and
(21:29):
you're letting the characterYou're not info dumping the
backstory or info dumping thescenic work and telling it all
through the character.
That really is kind of wheretheir voice comes through.
So I, I love that.
And then the last thing that Ihave to share, there's other
things, but I thought these werethe most important ones, To just
simply follow submissionguidelines.
I think that's really important.
(21:50):
And I understand authors want totake a chance and, you know,
throw spaghetti to the wall.
And yes, this person doesn't rephigh fi, high concept sci fi,
but my book is good enough.
They're going to want it anyway.
And that's not really true.
I mean, sometimes we sign stuffwe didn't expect, but I know I'm
not the best fit for epicfantasy or high concept sci fi.
(22:11):
You would not want me as youragent.
And if your book is over 100,000 words, it's not for me
either.
So, and we put these things onour manuscript wish list, and so
I think it's professional andcourteous to follow those
guidelines.
You know, it's not.
Sometimes it's difficult to findthat information, and especially
if you're a new author queryingand you've made some of those
(22:32):
mistakes, don't worry about it.
I get queries all the time thathave a different agent's name on
it, and sometimes when I seethat, it just makes me smile
because it reminds me there's ahuman part of this process.
So we are all human, but youcannot make mistakes that, that,
that can't be fixed.
And that, you know, if you get apass, and I use that term pass
(22:55):
all the time.
not rejection.
That pass means you're in thegame.
And that pass means maybe yougot a pass yesterday, and you
heard something today that youthink, Oh, I haven't heard that
before.
Let me go back and swap out oneof my comps.
And so just continue, continueto just keep educating yourself.
I probably subscribe to like, Idon't know, 20 to 30 writing
(23:16):
podcast.
It's a problem.
But.
I constantly learn from otherpeople.
And so when I'm on a walk orwhatever, I'm, I'm constantly
trying to educate myself to knowas much about the writing craft
and the publishing industriespossible so I can be the best
agent as possible and also tojust educate other authors.
I was a querying author too.
(23:37):
I know what it's like.
And I have written so manyresources all on my website for
free for you that I would loveto for, for authors to know are
out there that kind of tie backto what David and I've been
talking about.
So, one is called polishing yoursubmission packet before
querying, and I break down exa alot of what I talked about
(23:59):
today.
But I also go over synopsis inthat one as well, which we
didn't talk about, but that'sfine.
It's, you can find someinformation there about
synopsis.
That's the one place you get totell.
All you, all you do is tell.
I mean, it doesn't need to havevoice.
If it does, it's fine.
And then I have three selfediting guides, one on
developmental edits, line edits,and copy edits.
And if you don't know what allthree of those are, you can find
(24:20):
out by reading that.
And then I think another onethat would be helpful to you is
called How to Get an Agent'sAttention.
It's actually four videos that Icreated for an MFA program.
They're only like five to tenminutes each.
And so those free resources areavailable.
And I am on social media, mostlyon X.
I have joined Blue Sky.
I'm planning to move over theremore predominantly when
(24:41):
Manuscript Wishlist moves over.
But, you know, if my DMs areopen, feel free to ask me a
question, you know.
Educating for me is just soimportant because I want to see
your publishing dreams cometrue.
And, you know, I I pass on a lotof manuscripts because it's not
the right thing for me or forsome of these reasons, but I
always read your words withhonor and humility.
(25:05):
I'm honored when someone sendsme their query and they trust me
to read their words, so I can'talways give a personal response,
but just know that I, I, That's,it's very vulnerable to send
your work out into the world,and most people that I know in
publishing are genuinely amazingpeople, and we just want the
best, and that's why we go onpodcasts like this to try to
educate.
David Gwyn (25:26):
Yes.
No, and this is great.
And just will you tell us whatyour website is where people can
find that resource?
Amy Nielsen (25:31):
www.
AmyNielsenAuthor.
com, and that's A M Y N I E L SE N, and then there's like six
boxes in the middle of thewebsite.
Just go to Writing Advice, Andthere's just a ton of resources.
So the, my copy editing guide ispretty new.
That's something that was kindof new to me when I sent my
(25:52):
first novel on submission.
And that, that's an importantone.
You want your, you want yourwork formatted correctly too,
because kind of with submissionguidelines, if I open up your
document and things are boldedand italics and it's, and
there's no sentence, there's nostructure, like visually, That
can also, you know, kind of be abarrier so that copy edit guides
(26:13):
newer and I'm really proud ofthat one and it's not something
sometimes that we think about asauthors, you know, the actual
formatting of the documentitself.
David Gwyn (26:20):
That's great.
And I'll, I'll link to yourwebsite below so people can have
quick access.
That's really, really helpful.
Amy, as always, this is, this isinsanely helpful.
I feel like.
I feel like I learned a lot.
I have like a page worth ofnotes over here.
I'm like so this is great.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to chat with
Amy Nielsen (26:37):
are very, very welcome.
And one last, I wanted to giveone last quote to any authors
that are listening.
And this is a very familiarquote, but I think it really
rings true to the message that Iwant to send, is that you miss
100 percent of the shots youdon't take.
And that's of course the veryfamous Wayne Gretzky.
And you're doing it, you'redoing it.
(26:58):
And so.
If again, I hope this washelpful to you and you got this.
Keep at it.
David Gwyn (27:04):
Yeah, no, what a great way to end.
So thanks so much
Amy Nielsen (27:06):
Thank you.
So let's talk about opening pages here.
Amy Nielsen (00:03):
I want to talk about some of the things that
I've seen in opening pages thatyou may want to be on the alert
for.
And again, you're going to findthe books all over your library
that have done all of thesethings.
But especially if you're adebut, there's less wiggle room
for us to do some of theseriskier moves.
And you're not on a deadline.
(00:23):
You know, some published authorswill have a deadline.
And so the book will go out whenit's really not a hundred
percent as polished as it couldbe because there's their editor
knows that they're going to have60, 000, you know, pre orders
the second it goes up.
And so why would you spend ayear editing?
But when you have the time, youwant it as polished as possible.
(00:44):
And so here's a couple ofthings.
The first thing I'm gonna talkabout is cliche openings.
And I know we love our clicheopenings, but they're cliche for
a reason.
And here's why they'reproblematic.
Last week, I think it was lastweek, I read three queries or
three opening pages.
And all three, the first scene,was the main character driving
somewhere by themselves.
(01:06):
And so, again, you know, there'sthree separate books opening
exactly the same way.
So those are the types ofcliches you want to avoid.
Especially like, so if yourcharacter's driving alone, you
know, where's the tension andwhat's happening and what's,
what's happening on the page,you know, they're probably just
thinking a lot of stuff and infodumping.
(01:26):
So, you know driving isn't theonly type of cliche opening and
you can do it.
If it's the absolute perfectentry point for your story and
you're convinced of that, justmake it super unique.
And all three of thesecharacters driving in this
opening scene of these books Iwas reading, were all driving to
(01:47):
a location and just thinking abunch of stuff.
So it wasn't, it's not the mostcompelling place to start unless
you can make it compelling.
And I'm going to talk to you alittle bit about.
scenes and stuff later, but acouple other kind of cliche
openings, and you can Googlethis and find them, and we as
agents know them, so we knowwhen we open up.
(02:07):
A submission, if it starts witha cliche opening, we're like,
okay, we've seen this threetimes already this week unless
you make it super fresh, whichyou can do, but some other types
of cliche openings to thinkabout are weather, you know,
it's a dark and stormy night inroute, and that's, you know,
kind of the driving, but it alsocould, you know, be in route,
planes, trains, and automobiles,you know, if you're going
(02:30):
somewhere, there's not reallyanything happening unless maybe,
you know, Something happenswhile you're going somewhere.
Funerals can be filled cliche.
Dreams, I just don't start yourmanuscript with a dream because
again, you're kind of trickingthe reader and they don't like
that.
A crowd scene, I do want to seeyour character with a crowd
scene.
Other people, not alone, but ahuge crowd scene can be super,
(02:53):
super confusing entry point intoa story into a story, you know,
like a big birthday party or abig ball or whatever, there's
too many people, you know, weneed to intimately slowly get to
know who we're supposed to careabout, not super slow, but slow
enough, you know, I tell for itto consider an entry point, what
I tell authors is that we'reWhatever your inciting incident
(03:15):
is, and of course that's thething that happens to your main
character that they can never goback to the status quo, that's
when Katniss volunteered to betribute, she could never un
volunteer to be tribute, inromance that's when the two
couple, the two people meet,they can never un meet because
they've already met, so whereveryour inciting incident is, back
up just a bit, That's a greatplace to start still needs to
(03:38):
have tension and all the thingsthat a good scene will have,
but, you know, that's a, that'sa kind of a good way to say,
okay, this is my incitingincident, let me back up a
little bit, and I'm using HungerGames as an example when they
opened the scene with her wakingup, so, so there you go, you
know, it can be done so, youknow, Main character musings are
another cautionary tale with acharacter just kind of in their
(04:00):
head.
Looking in a mirror cansometimes seem like a clever way
to show what the character lookslike and people look in mirrors
all the time.
I would caution not in youropening scene.
And super impactful actionscenes.
Now, In thrillers, we're goingto have action but I, I would
think this is more along thelines of if there isn't a lot of
action in your story and youstart with a lot of action, then
(04:23):
that's kind of misleading readerexpectations.
So that would kind of be what I,what I would be talking about
there.
Any other cliche openings youcan think of?
Mm
David Gwyn (04:31):
No, I think that's a really good list.
I had a conversation with DavidMcCloskey, about his thriller
and he said something that kindof changed the way I think about
thrillers.
And I think Aaron Philip Clarksaid something similar to, which
is if you start your Thriller,especially because we were
talking about thrillers, butany, any story really with a
high intensity action scene.
(04:53):
As readers, sometimes we don'tcare enough about that character
to care whether they get hurt inthat moment or not.
And so I thought it was reallyinteresting he was like, He said
something along the lines of, hedoesn't put them in that life or
death situation until he thinkshe's done the work to have a
reader care about thatcharacter.
(05:15):
And that to me was like soinsightful because I think we
are, we're, as writers,especially writers who are
trying to get agents, you'rebattling that like, back and
forth of like, keep a reader'sattention and keep an agent's
attention.
How do you do it?
Well, throw more action.
You know, make it intense, but Ithink a lot of the work that can
be done is more subtle thanthat.
And I, and I think that thatreally, to your point, is, you
(05:37):
know, avoid the cliches and thenfind an avenue into your story
that makes sense for yourcharacter, not just, you know,
this, it's, it's random, likethis is a thing that's just
gonna happen
Amy Nielsen (05:47):
Well, and that's why if you focus on the inciting
incident and back up just alittle bit, you'll, you'll meet
the character in their naturalenvironment.
It doesn't need to be boring.
But where they are, we're gonnaget a glimpse of to what they
can't go back to, you know.
And what you've said, I've beengiven that advice before too.
And my original draft years ago,I had an author give me some
(06:10):
feedback and he said just that.
I, it was a dual, I had dualtimeline at the time.
I rewrote it before it gotpublished in chronological order
because dual timeline was notthe correct structure for that
story I later found out.
And I started it with a pregnantmain character screaming and
arguing with a boyfriend andthey get into a car and he's
punching the windshield and thecar spins and and that's exactly
(06:33):
what that author told me.
He said, I, I don't know enoughabout this character to care
that it's the situation thatshe's in.
So that's advice that I giveauthors all the time.
I was just reading a manuscriptthe other day and a young woman
becomes a vic is a victim to abad guy in the very first scene
and I knew zero about her.
(06:54):
So I've been given that sameadvice, and it's really, really
good advice.
We do need to care a littleabout the character before
something bad happens to them.
And
David Gwyn (07:03):
Yeah, that's cool.
Amy Nielsen (07:04):
and like with the Hunger Games, that's kind of it,
you know, you do, Care about herbefore you find out that now
she's gonna have to go into thislife or death competition.
David Gwyn (07:14):
Yeah, it is so important and something that I
think thriller writers are we'reguilty of because we want to get
to that.
We want to get to the highintensity that the thrillers are
made for.
But it's it's hard sometimes topull back and be but that's
where I think I think and like Imentioned David McCloskey's book
that I actually read his openingcouple of sentences to him and
(07:35):
we got to talk about it, whichis really cool because what it
did was it was super.
It was super tense, but notaction filled intense, which is
Amy Nielsen (07:43):
Yes I read Lisa Jules.
None of this is true this summerand It's been a while.
I read a lot of books, but Ibelieve her opening scene if
anyone's read that book, it'sfantastic.
Like, oh, love it.
Is this woman having a kind of atense birthday dinner with her
husband.
And she's not a very socialperson.
And she sees this other grouphaving a very jovial birthday
(08:08):
dinner at the restaurant.
You know, she's not in thatcrowd.
So yes, I did say don't startwith a big crowd.
She's over here in thisintimate, you know, dinner with
her husband, but she sees thisbeautiful, confident woman
celebrating her birthday.
And so you feel the tense, butyou're not sure why, of her and
her husband.
You feel her jealousy of thisother woman.
But you don't really understandmuch of what's going on.
(08:31):
And then both women end up inthe bathroom and find out they
have the same birthday.
And that's kind of the premiseof the whole, the story moving
forward.
But it was, it was a perfectentry point because you get just
enough.
You don't even really know who'sthe protagonist, who's the
antagonist at this point.
And it didn't really matter.
You know, you knew it was goingto be someone in that group
(08:51):
because that's who wasintroduced to you.
To you, but that was anexcellent opening.
I really, really enjoyed that.
David Gwyn (08:56):
To your point like something that you don't see
often starting in a restaurantis not overused as an opening,
which I think is another pointto
Amy Nielsen (09:04):
Yeah.
And right.
And that, that, that's somethingthat, you know, fit that
perfectly because those womenneeded to meet like randomly.
You know, it was a way to placethem in a place where they can
meet randomly.
And what better place to meetrandomly than, you know, in the
women's restroom?
David Gwyn (09:20):
Cool.
What else you got for us?
This is, this is great.
Amy Nielsen (09:23):
The next thing I have written, and we kind of
touched on this with a characterin Rout, and I wrote main
character musings.
Show main character interactingwith a handful of other
characters who matter in thestory.
Who we meet first will be whothe reader thinks they should
care about, and it's hard tobuild tension without
characters.
So I have seen some openingswhere you meet a bunch of people
(09:43):
that you never see again, andnot that that's not going to
happen.
It could be a random person atthe restaurant, but we need to
know their name and theirbackstory, you know?
So I would just, a handful ofcharacters, a character alone
can be done well.
It's done well all the time.
I personally don't gravitatetoward stories that start with
the main character bythemselves.
And, and you don't have to haveit.
(10:03):
Obviously, your character isgoing to have time to reflect
and be by themselves later inthe story, but I want to start
feeling tension, like Lisa Jeweldid with that, a woman and her
husband.
Like, we felt a little bit oftension between them, and we
didn't understand it, but it'slike, It was there and you could
tell.
So I really like that.
The other thing that I've seenhappen is openings that aren't a
(10:26):
scene.
Again, it's just description.
And so I have on my website, Ablog post I wrote about what is
a scene and like just aformulaic way to look at it, and
I'll kind of let you know whatthat is.
So this is kind of in the way Idescribe what a scene is.
A scene, something has to behappening.
So if there's a character, afloating head, we don't know
(10:48):
what's happening.
That's not really a scene, eventhough we will have some
interior thoughts.
So, a scene is, well there's twodifferent types, there's like an
action scene and a reaction, andaction doesn't mean something's
exploding.
What that means is, the maincharacter has a goal, there's an
obstacle in their way, there isan outcome, and they either
(11:08):
achieve or they don't achievetheir goal.
So that's basically kind of in anutshell what a scene is.
The reaction scene would be thenext scene, where they react to
the previous scene, make a newgoal, and then go to pursue it.
So you really want to look andsee, do I have, am I starting
with a scene?
Or am I starting with worldbuilding and description and
(11:29):
paragraphs of that sort ofthing?
Which, It isn't compelling forus to read.
You need to know all that, andwe're going to get to how you
get it to the reader in a minutewith another formula that I
absolutely loved.
I didn't come up with this onebut readers read stories for
characters.
We, we love the settings and welove the plot and the action,
but we fall in love with acharacter.
(11:50):
And so, That's who we want tostart with.
We want to start with thatcharacter and then making
decisions, having agency andobstacles in their way, even if
the first goal they have issuper small.
Like in Lisa Jewels, I'll goback to that one, the main
character's goal was to, I wantthis dinner to be over, but I
also want to meet that girlbecause she's intriguing, you
(12:11):
know, and so that was kind oflike what her, they weren't huge
goals, but the main characterhad goals.
And so yes, I think it's reallyimportant to start in the scene.
David Gwyn (12:22):
no, I think that makes a lot of sense and I feel
like too there's so many timesand I'm guilty of this as I
think pretty much every writeris you write what you think is
gonna be the first scene andthen you get to the end of the
book and you're like Oh, wait, Icould cut off the first scene or
maybe two Because it's it'sstuff that you need to get out
You need to know that it's thereBut it's not something that the
reader needs to know right and Ithink that that's so hard I
(12:45):
think it's too I'm a huge fan.
I love Save the Cat.
I do believe in it.
But at the same time, I thinkit's like one of those things
where If you're too rigid tolike that, whatever the
percentages are and stuff, youmiss out on the natural build of
the story.
And like, if you don't need 10percent or whatever that number
is to get to the incitingincident, then don't, don't use
(13:06):
it.
Like cut it there and get, getright
Amy Nielsen (13:07):
The inciting incident can be in various
places.
Sometimes it's on the firstpage, sometimes it's in the
second chapter.
So it needs to go where it needsto go.
You know and I Back to this,this talking about scenes.
I was at a writing day workshopconference last, I think last
April, going again this year inthe Tampa Bay area, and I was on
(13:28):
a first pages panel.
This was fascinating to me, andI think to the authors in the
crowd and that all the authorssubmitted anonymously the first
page of their manuscript, and Iwas on a panel with about seven
or eight agents.
And, We, we, there was anarrator there.
He was an excellent narrator.
He would read.
The manuscript and then asagents would stop reading like
(13:53):
if this was in their inbox, theywould raise their hand when
they'd stop and then we wouldtell why and most often more
than not, the repeated answerover and over again was this
isn't a scene.
This isn't a scene.
And so that's why I put thatthere because it was about 30
different opening pages and thatwas the number one comment from
(14:16):
agents that they would havestopped reading before the end
of the first page because itwasn't a scene, there was
nothing happening.
David Gwyn (14:22):
And it was usually, it was usually a blend of The
goal, I'm assuming it's usuallythe goal setting.
Is that the thing that you seemost to make something, not a
scene?
Because I feel like most peoplehave a character, they have a
setting.
I'm assuming that the thing thatthey're missing in that piece is
the goal.
Is that what you find?
Amy Nielsen (14:39):
I think for when we, what we saw here and it was
all genres and all age ranges, Ithink what we were seeing there
is that there was a lot of worldbuilding and telling and
description and not reallycharacters interacting with each
other on the page.
I think you, it's real quicklyto tell for me, I can just scan
the first few pages of adocument of a manuscript and
(15:01):
tell if it's going to be toomuch info dumping and not enough
scenes, because if I'm not, if Ihave dialogue.
on page one, then more thanlikely there's probably not a
scene.
Again, prologues have a wholedifferent way that they, you
know, a prologue, you can bevery creative with the structure
of a prologue.
But once you get to the, to thechapter one, there is an
(15:22):
expectation that we're going tohave characters interacting with
each other, creating goals andobstacles and, and things like
that.
So that was the number onefeedback from that workshop,
which was really fascinating tome, which is why I.
shared it here.
Now, I am going to talkspecifically about info dumping,
and I am going to give you, Ididn't create this, this is by
Jane Kales, K A L E S but Ifound it when I was researching
(15:47):
how to world build without Infodumping, because people, the
world building that authors dois amazing, and in all stories
you need to world build, whetherit's contemporary, whether it's
fantasy, whether it's thriller,because wherever you're plucking
your reader, they've more thanlikely never been there, and
even if they have been there,We're seeing this through your
(16:07):
character's eyes, and so this ishow what this world building
technique is, so, or, or, a wayto prevent yourself from info
dumping.
So, it's called General SpecificPersonal, and I have an example,
and I'm going to tell you whatthat means, too.
So, Between, you know, like yourscenes, if there's something
(16:30):
that you need to explain, youneed to explain a setting or
whatever, start with a generalstatement, then a specific
statement, and then personal tieit back to the character.
So, I'm going to read you kindof how I did this as an example.
Again, it's not from a book, Ijust made this up, but then I'm
(16:51):
going to show you how it works.
So, North Lake, Florida satsmack dab in the middle of the
state.
No majestic palm tree linedbeaches here.
Instead, sparse palmettos andscrub oaks dotted the interior
landscape.
And despite our close proximity,I'd never set foot onto Disney
property.
So, the general statement is,zooming out, think about that
(17:12):
wide shot, North Lake Floridasat smack dab in the middle of
the state.
One statement, wide shot, thengetting more specific.
No majestic palm tree linedbeaches here.
Instead, sparse palmettos andscrub oaks dotted the interior
landscape.
So now I'm getting, you know,zooming in.
The wide shot, the medium shot,zooming in on the person's
(17:34):
house, and then personal.
And despite our close proximity,I'd never step foot onto Disney
property.
So that is a simplistic waythroughout your manuscript.
I mean, it's formulaic, but Idon't think that repeated use of
this technique would readformulaic, and sometimes you're
going to have maybe twosentences that are general, and
one that's specific, and onethat's personal, but she has a
(17:55):
YouTube video where she explainsthis her description, the
examples that she uses, andagain, they're just examples
weren't my favorite becausethey're a little bit too long,
but she does a fantastic job ofexplaining this general,
specific, personal way toprevent paragraphs of lengthy
info dumping.
So this was four sentences.
(18:15):
that I wrote, that youcompletely see the world
building and that it's personal.
Obviously, the person that'sthinking this isn't real happy
about it.
You know, you can tell by thetone that there's no majestic
palm tree lined beaches, youknow, sparse palmettos, and then
we're close to Disney, but Inever got to go.
(18:36):
So, you know, you kind of getthe tone and the mood.
through the main character,talking about, or thinking about
the setting.
So I, I really, really like thatguideline, and I'm super excited
to see if readers find it asintriguing as I do.
I actually just gave thatfeedback to one of my authors
today, because her manuscripthad a lot of, you know, a
(18:57):
beautiful world building,beautiful, beautiful, beautiful,
but it went on and on and on towhere nothing's happening.
And so readers want to seewhat's happening.
We want to be grounded insetting.
Grounded in time, but we want tosee what's happening.
So we want to get that worldbuilding out there quick and
then move on and then drop alittle bit more of it later.
David Gwyn (19:15):
And one of the things too, that I would just
add to the piece that you wroteand then I think is important
to, to what this is doing isit's also, it's doing multiple
things.
It's setting the scene, but it'salso developing your character's
voice.
Like how does your characterfeel about the setting?
And I think a lot of times whenwe read setting where it isn't
infused with character voice,yeah.
(19:36):
It can feel like it's draggingon because you're just telling
me about the day or this thetrees or this whatever the
weather But if you have acharacter who like looks up at
the Sun and squints becausethey're hungover like okay now
I'm now I've got character withsetting and I think that that
that balance also Could be funfor people to think about like,
(19:56):
okay, how can I?
Zoom out, maybe the zoom outmaybe doesn't have a lot of
character voice, like I think ofall the places that probably
doesn't, but the closer I get tothe, you know, the kind of
character, the more interiorityI should use, and like, I should
be selecting words that reallydevelop my character, because
that, I think, the longer I, themore I talk to agents, and the
(20:18):
longer I read these things, andI'm sure I'm telling you
something that you, you knowalready, you'd scream from the,
from the rooftops, but There areso many mistakes that writers
can make in a book, but voice isthe one that will save a lot of
things.
Like, if your character voicerocks, but there's, it's like a
little bit of slow pacing here.
(20:39):
Or if you're, the ending, itjust needs a little bit of work.
Or, oh, you know, you're notreally building up the setting.
Like, I feel like agents aregoing to take a shot on you as a
writer and they'll be like,well, the voice is great.
I can fix X, Y, and Z.
But that voice and that's thisis a great way of just like you
said getting rid of info dumpingBuilding in voice and making you
(21:00):
seem like you have a greathandle of your writing craft
Yes.
Amy Nielsen (21:07):
with the voice of his character and it did need
work.
We are on submission now andgetting great feedback.
But I just, I did, I fell inlove with the voice.
It was snarky and sassy and, youknow, there, there was a lot of
banter and, and it'd be so niceif we could teach you how to
find that voice.
But, but that, that's reallyhard.
And that's where when you arezooming in to that character and
(21:29):
you're letting the characterYou're not info dumping the
backstory or info dumping thescenic work and telling it all
through the character.
That really is kind of wheretheir voice comes through.
So I, I love that.
And then the last thing that Ihave to share, there's other
things, but I thought these werethe most important ones, To just
simply follow submissionguidelines.
I think that's really important.
(21:50):
And I understand authors want totake a chance and, you know,
throw spaghetti to the wall.
And yes, this person doesn't rephigh fi, high concept sci fi,
but my book is good enough.
They're going to want it anyway.
And that's not really true.
I mean, sometimes we sign stuffwe didn't expect, but I know I'm
not the best fit for epicfantasy or high concept sci fi.
(22:11):
You would not want me as youragent.
And if your book is over 100,000 words, it's not for me
either.
So, and we put these things onour manuscript wish list, and so
I think it's professional andcourteous to follow those
guidelines.
You know, it's not.
Sometimes it's difficult to findthat information, and especially
if you're a new author queryingand you've made some of those
(22:32):
mistakes, don't worry about it.
I get queries all the time thathave a different agent's name on
it, and sometimes when I seethat, it just makes me smile
because it reminds me there's ahuman part of this process.
So we are all human, but youcannot make mistakes that, that,
that can't be fixed.
And that, you know, if you get apass, and I use that term pass
(22:55):
all the time.
not rejection.
That pass means you're in thegame.
And that pass means maybe yougot a pass yesterday, and you
heard something today that youthink, Oh, I haven't heard that
before.
Let me go back and swap out oneof my comps.
And so just continue, continueto just keep educating yourself.
I probably subscribe to like, Idon't know, 20 to 30 writing
(23:16):
podcast.
It's a problem.
But.
I constantly learn from otherpeople.
And so when I'm on a walk orwhatever, I'm, I'm constantly
trying to educate myself to knowas much about the writing craft
and the publishing industriespossible so I can be the best
agent as possible and also tojust educate other authors.
I was a querying author too.
(23:37):
I know what it's like.
And I have written so manyresources all on my website for
free for you that I would loveto for, for authors to know are
out there that kind of tie backto what David and I've been
talking about.
So, one is called polishing yoursubmission packet before
querying, and I break down exa alot of what I talked about
(23:59):
today.
But I also go over synopsis inthat one as well, which we
didn't talk about, but that'sfine.
It's, you can find someinformation there about
synopsis.
That's the one place you get totell.
All you, all you do is tell.
I mean, it doesn't need to havevoice.
If it does, it's fine.
And then I have three selfediting guides, one on
developmental edits, line edits,and copy edits.
And if you don't know what allthree of those are, you can find
(24:20):
out by reading that.
And then I think another onethat would be helpful to you is
called How to Get an Agent'sAttention.
It's actually four videos that Icreated for an MFA program.
They're only like five to tenminutes each.
And so those free resources areavailable.
And I am on social media, mostlyon X.
I have joined Blue Sky.
I'm planning to move over theremore predominantly when
(24:41):
Manuscript Wishlist moves over.
But, you know, if my DMs areopen, feel free to ask me a
question, you know.
Educating for me is just soimportant because I want to see
your publishing dreams cometrue.
And, you know, I I pass on a lotof manuscripts because it's not
the right thing for me or forsome of these reasons, but I
always read your words withhonor and humility.
(25:05):
I'm honored when someone sendsme their query and they trust me
to read their words, so I can'talways give a personal response,
but just know that I, I, That's,it's very vulnerable to send
your work out into the world,and most people that I know in
publishing are genuinely amazingpeople, and we just want the
best, and that's why we go onpodcasts like this to try to
educate.
David Gwyn (25:26):
Yes.
No, and this is great.
And just will you tell us whatyour website is where people can
find that resource?
Amy Nielsen (25:31):
www.
AmyNielsenAuthor.
com, and that's A M Y N I E L SE N, and then there's like six
boxes in the middle of thewebsite.
Just go to Writing Advice, Andthere's just a ton of resources.
So the, my copy editing guide ispretty new.
That's something that was kindof new to me when I sent my
(25:52):
first novel on submission.
And that, that's an importantone.
You want your, you want yourwork formatted correctly too,
because kind of with submissionguidelines, if I open up your
document and things are boldedand italics and it's, and
there's no sentence, there's nostructure, like visually, That
can also, you know, kind of be abarrier so that copy edit guides
(26:13):
newer and I'm really proud ofthat one and it's not something
sometimes that we think about asauthors, you know, the actual
formatting of the documentitself.
David Gwyn (26:20):
That's great.
And I'll, I'll link to yourwebsite below so people can have
quick access.
That's really, really helpful.
Amy, as always, this is, this isinsanely helpful.
I feel like.
I feel like I learned a lot.
I have like a page worth ofnotes over here.
I'm like so this is great.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to chat with
Amy Nielsen (26:37):
are very, very welcome.
And one last, I wanted to giveone last quote to any authors
that are listening.
And this is a very familiarquote, but I think it really
rings true to the message that Iwant to send, is that you miss
100 percent of the shots youdon't take.
And that's of course the veryfamous Wayne Gretzky.
And you're doing it, you'redoing it.
(26:58):
And so.
If again, I hope this washelpful to you and you got this.
Keep at it.
David Gwyn (27:04):
Yeah, no, what a great way to end.
So thanks so much
Amy Nielsen (27:06):
Thank you.
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