Writing a Complex Mystery Novel with Bianca Marais

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What if the secret to writing unforgettable characters isn't interrogating them with questionnaires, but letting them reveal themselves organically? 

In this episode, bestselling author Bianca Marais shares how she "pantsed" her way through writing her newest novel, A Most Puzzling Murder. 

It’s especially impressive because this novel is a complex mystery with 12+ POVs, choose-your-own-adventure chapters, interactive puzzles, and a character who emails readers back. 

If you've ever wondered how to build three-dimensional characters that feel alive, balance ambitious storytelling mechanics without losing narrative control then this conversation is perfect for you! 

Bianca reveals the unique writing techniques that allowed her to juggle multiple perspectives while maintaining emotional depth, and why giving up control might be the key to unlocking your best work.

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Bianca's Website

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Episode Transcript

David Gwyn (00:00):
welcome to Thriller 1 0 1 podcast.

(00:01):
I am here with Bianca Maray,author of, which is a moonshine
manner.
Hum.
If you don't know the words, ifyou wanna Make God laugh, and
her latest novel, A MostPuzzling Murder, which was
released on June 10th, and sheis also the co-host of the
popular podcast.
The Shit No One Tells You AboutWriting.
Which is aimed at helpingemerging writers become
published, and she is here totalk about her novel that just

(00:24):
came out a most puzzling murder.
Bianca, thank you so much forbeing on the Thriller 1 0 1
Podcast.

Bianca Marais (00:29):
Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me, David.
It's always so lovely to chatwith you.

David Gwyn (00:33):
Yeah, we, we've had a, a few opportunities to, to
talk over the years from acouple different books and
different angles, so it isalways fun to talk to you.
You have such a great view ofthe writing world.
So it's just so much fun tochat.

Bianca Marais (00:45):
Thank you.
Yeah.

David Gwyn (00:47):
So I wanna get right into it here.
I would love for you just totell people who, who haven't
read a most puzzling murder yet.
What, what is that book about?

Bianca Marais (00:56):
Yeah.
It is quite a rump of a book.
It's kind of like a soap operawith a royal magical family
where all the members are vyingfor dominance.
We have, we calling it.
Glass onion or knives out Meetsuccession meets Prince Harry's
spare.

(01:17):
So it's a bit of everything.
It's also a bit of choose yourown adventure and it's a puzzle
book.
You get to email the maincharacter and she emails you
back.
But essentially it's about themain character, destiny Whip,
who is an enigma artist.
She was a child prodigy.
She's experienced some grief,and so she's become a recluse.

(01:38):
And one day a mysterious letterarrives and she needs to decode
the hidden message in the letterto go to Erie Island to unlock
the secrets of her past.
Dun, dun dun.

David Gwyn (01:51):
Yeah, it's such a fun read.
I mean, just really I'm, when Iwas reading it and, and we're
gonna talk about this a a littlebit, I'd love to hear where this
came from, but all of the chooseyour own adventure and the clues
and all of these twists andturns, and I, I, as, as somebody
who writes and obviously anadded reader, I was reading this
and I was thinking like, could Ipull this off?
And I was like, no, I don'tthink I could.

(02:11):
I'm dying to know, like, didthis.
Was this an idea that came kindof fully flashed, or were you
kind of like, oh, let's do likeone thing and then another and
then another and like all of asudden you have these, you know,
choose your adventure email forclues.
You got puzzles, like you gotall kinds of fun stuff here.
Where did that come from?

Bianca Marais (02:26):
Yeah, I think if the idea had arrived fully
formed, I would've been like,Nope, no thanks.
Not doing that.
Because this writing, this bookwas like juggling jello, you
know, or like wrestling with anoctopus.
It was insane.
It was, there was so many movingparts, so it definitely wasn't
something that came to me.

(02:46):
Fully because I, I would've gonelike, no, I don't think I can do
it.
So I was just, I was gettingdeeply frustrated at one point
with how as a society, we seemto be losing our critical
thinking skills.
You know, things are beingdumbed down so much that if
something can't be conveyed in.
One graphic in a meme, peopledon't seem to understand the

(03:08):
nuance, et cetera.
So I love things likephilosophical thought
experiments, things that reallymake you think.
And I was going, how can I writea book that really challenges
the reader to think I love doingpuzzles?
So I was like, how can Iincorporate those elements?
And I just wanted readers tohave so much fun because I don't

(03:29):
know about you, David, but whenI was a kid.
I wanted to live and breathe thebooks I was reading.
I wanted to crawl into the pagesand become a character, and I
just wanted this whole world tobe my world.
And I was going, how can I dothat for adult readers?
Give them some of that sense offun in terms of the choose your

(03:50):
own adventure chapters and makethem feel so fully engaged that
the.
Main character becomes liketheir best friend who they're
emailing and she's emailing themback.
So as the story went, each partgrew.
I mean, the, the Choose Your OwnAdventure chapters came out of
my frustration with backstoryand context because each story

(04:11):
gets to the point where you needbackstory, you need some
context.
And I hate just having a normalflashback or even.
Dual timeline narratives.
Sorry.
Whenever I say that on thepodcast, people think I'm saying
Jewell with A-J-E-W-E-L.
And then they, somebody mailedme and was like, what kind of
jewels are these?
So dual, dual timelinenarratives.

(04:35):
And I was going, how can I makebackstory more interesting as
opposed to, here we go, we'regetting back into the past.
Now it becomes, okay, you'regonna get the past or you're
gonna get some context, butyou're gonna get different clues
depending on which.
Choices you make.
So that was just to make thatmore fun and interesting.
And the emailing component camefrom, I sent friends some of the

(04:55):
puzzles and some of them weregoing, oh, these are way too
easy.
And some of them were going,these are way too difficult.
And a friend texted me and said,just give me a clue.
And when I gave him the clue,he'd figured it out.
So I was like, oh, it's apretty, I can't text all my
readers.
How can I, Ooh, email.
So, you know, the, like this,this thing evolved as I went
along.

David Gwyn (05:16):
Yeah.
No, that makes so much sense.
And it is, I think, I think younailed it.
It did feel really immersivebecause we had, you know,
because it felt like the bookexisted outside of the confines
of the book.
And I think that that's, that'sa really great point.
And, and it did add to the, tothe reader experience.
So tell me a little bit aboutwhere this all went.
So did you have like charactersin mind?

(05:37):
Did you have plot in mind?
Did you have like the mystery?
Like what, what order did allthese things kind of come into
your head and how did they, thattranslate into a draft?

Bianca Marais (05:47):
Yeah, so once I decided I was doing a closed
your murder mystery you know, Iinterview a lot of authors on my
podcast and all of them whowrite in the genre said to me,
you need to closely plot,tightly plot a closed your
murder mystery.
And I don't know about you,maybe it's the Capricorn in me,
but as soon as somebody tells meI have to do something one way,

(06:10):
I'm like, really?
Do I?
Maybe I could do it another way.
And so I have always been apantser and I was like, can I,
pants are closed a murdermystery.
But I, knowing who died, howthey died, who killed them, why
they killed them.
And I was like, let's see if Ican.
And so for me.
I had a premise.
I knew that there was thismagical family, that they were

(06:32):
very dysfunctional.
I knew that there was this darkand stormy gothic vibes that
there would be an island, but,and I knew someone would've to
get killed.
Beyond that, I didn't knowanything.
So for me, I always.
Focus on building charactersthat I can really get on board
with.
'cause I feel like once acharacter is fully formed in my
mind, once they feel real, Iwill follow them and I give them

(06:55):
agency.
And that is how the plotunfolds.
So it took me quite a while.
I, I, on the podcast, I talkabout circling the building of
your work to find an entrywayinto it.
Some stories are the front door,some stories are the back door.
Some stories are the fire escapeon the third floor or the
chimney.
And this book, I had to keepcircling it to really nail who

(07:18):
Destiny was, what she wanted,her backstory, where she came
from, her misbelief, et cetera.
And once I found that, I thenreleased her and I just ran
behind her and tried to keep up.

David Gwyn (07:31):
That's amazing.
I, I knew, I remember from theprevious podcast that you
mentioned that you were aPanther, and so I was wondering,
because typically a story likethis, like is.
Historically very difficult topants your way through.
Like you've gotta usually findyour kind of fence post.
So it's interesting to hear thatyou were kind of like, no.
Let's see if, let's see if I canjust.

(07:51):
Follow through.
But I think, I think the thingthat made it so possible for you
is, the thing I wanna talk toyou about is your characters,
because your characters doreally come across as very
unique.
They always have, I, you seem tolike a larger cast of
characters.
And they all kind of have theirown little quirks and things
that make them feel so threedimensional for readers.

(08:14):
And so it sounds like.
You, how much character work areyou doing?
Do you feel like you're activelylooking for character or do you
feel like it happens as you'rekind of writing around, like you
said, kind of circling thebuilding?
Are you, is that your avenueinto character or are you using
characters you kinda like have asense of them right away?

Bianca Marais (08:32):
I'll, I'll sometimes have a sense of them.
Like I knew Destiny was unusual.
I knew she was eccentric.
I saw her, you know, just, justbeing, she refers to herself as
a lone pelican in a flamboyantof flamingos.
So I knew she was an outlier,but it took me a while to really
figure out, you know, what madeher tick.

(08:55):
Why she was so alienated, whyshe was so sad.
So, you know, I'll start withthe premise and then I'll start
writing.
You know, I, I, I startedwriting the story where Destiny
is already on the island.
Chapter one was her clutchingher emotional support urn, and
she's making her way up thecobblestone streets to find the

(09:19):
Grimshaw in, in, in tn.
And so.
That's how I started writing it.
And then I started realizing Ididn't understand her
motivation.
Why was she there?
What made her arrive there?
And I tend to do that with mostof my stories.
I start far too far into thestory and then I have to
backtrack.
And then I'll come back and, andfill all that stuff in.

(09:41):
So I find I like to do itorganically every time my
character makes a decision.
And I don't understand whythey're making that decision or
why they're choosing thatparticular route.
I'll stop and I'll be like.
What is it about theirchildhood?
What is it about that happenedlast week?
What did their therapist say tothem?
You know why would they dosomething like this when most

(10:01):
other people wouldn't?
And so, I will start to fleshthem out, and I honestly only
know the character by the end ofthe book.
And then, you know, I go backthe whole time while I'm
writing.
I'm not someone who writes adraft from start to finish and
then goes back as I figure eachthing out, like as I figured
out.
Oh, this person lookssuspicious.

(10:22):
I would go back and plant thosecuriosity seeds so that it feels
organic, because I want myreaders to be able to read my
book, go back and read it allover again and go, aha, here was
the clue.
I missed this clue.
It was here all along.
So it's, you know, it's a, it'sa lot of work.
It's, it's layering the entiretime.

David Gwyn (10:41):
Yeah, I mean this is why I love talking to you and
having you on the podcast.
'cause I feel like that is sucha goldmine of information and
like packed into like two and ahalf minutes right there, like,
so much fun to think about.
And I think too your, yourstrengths like I mentioned among
your strengths is your characterwork.
And I feel like that's somethingthat I struggle with so much.
I know a lot of writers strugglewith is.

(11:02):
How do, how are we finding waysto uncover character?
And I think just listening toyou I feel like sometimes I try
to force it, right?
Like I feel like a lot ofwriters try to like, figure out
that the, the character beforewe start or try to, we're really
like interrogating them.
And it sounds like to me you'rejust like, you get enough of
them.
Built that you can then followthem and instead of trying to

(11:27):
figure, trying to force themsomewhere, you are just figuring
out why they're going wherethey're going.
Do I have that correct?

Bianca Marais (11:34):
Yeah.
I mean, if you think about, letthink about you at a conference
and you go to a bar and you havea drink.
And somebody sits next to you,you start chatting with that
person, right?
You just talk about the weatheror what they're doing there or
what they like to drink or whatthey're reading and you start to
get information from them.
If you start to interrogate themhugely, they're probably gonna

(11:58):
think there's something a bitodd about you and they might
like pick up their drink and runaway.
'Cause you're gonna come acrossas way too intense.
And I feel the same with mycharacters.
Like I don't wanna put aspotlight on them and
interrogate them because they'regonna get scared and they're
gonna run the hell away.
And in the same way that likeany good friendship forms over
time, more lunches, moredinners, more walks in the park,

(12:21):
I feel like it should be thesame with your characters.
They will slowly revealthemselves to you as they trust
you.
And I'm a big believer intrusting my subconscious, you
know, because.
All character comes from oursubconscious, all plot comes
from our subconscious, and Ifind that when I, I'm a control
freak in pretty much all aspectsof my life.

(12:43):
David, I'm a Capricorn, a typecontrol freak.
I try and control everything.
I have spreadsheets and to-dolists.
It's insane.
The one part of my life I do notcontrol myself in is my writing.
That's my playground.
And I'm like, I will not controlit.
I will let the writing controlme and I, I give myself
permission to just, you know,let those little nuggets reveal

(13:06):
themselves to me.
And so far it's not a processthat works for everybody.
I've spoken to many, manyauthors and many of them get
chest pain when I, when I tellthem that this is my process and
I'll get chest pain when theytell me about their process.
But this is why it's soimportant to find what works for
you.

David Gwyn (13:23):
I, I think that's so cool.
And so important for people tohear.
I, I'm, I'm curious and, and notgiving anything away here, but
there, there is a, there is athematic thread here of grief
and guilt and, and these kind ofbigger issues, which, which I
think is so important, reallygrounds the work.
It's not, you know, it's notjust a murder mystery.
It also has these big thematicthreads.

(13:44):
So how intentional was that fromthe beginning?
Did you set out to tell thisstory or is this the story that
kind of revealed itself?
Through the character.

Bianca Marais (13:52):
Yeah.
There's certain things abouthuman nature that always
fascinate me.
I think every book I write,whether it was my.
Literary historical fiction, orwhether it was my witches or
moonshine manner or this, thereare certain things that are
always gonna fascinate me as awriter.
One of them is grief.
Because it's such a human thing.
We all go through it and we alldeal with it so very

(14:13):
differently.
Other things are overcomingadversity.
Another thing is identity, likehow you find your identity, how
you find your people, foundfamily.
So I feel like those are thingsI'm always gonna be writing
about.
But I never stop to think toomuch about themes.
When I'm, when I sit down towrite, I'll just be like, it

(14:35):
would be nice to explore, youknow, grief and identity.
And how, again, it always comesback to character, like what
drives her?
What is it about the grief thatdrives her?
To accept this weird invitationand go to an island where she
doesn't know anybody.
What is it about that thatmotivates her?
And what makes that plausible?

(14:55):
And I find that if we really getto know our characters and give
them all that backstory andflesh them out, they are.
You know, they're gonna lead usto those themes anyway.
And again, I feel like they'reso subconscious.
I feel every writer's gotcertain things that fascinates
them about the human condition,and we are just gonna keep
exploring certain things overand over.

David Gwyn (15:16):
Yeah.
I, I love that.
I, I think too it goes to kindof our role, I think as writers
is to, to not just tell a greatstory, but also to kind of
investigate the, the humancondition for readers, but also
for ourselves.
I feel like that's one of thethings we don't talk enough
about, especially when we'retalking about genre.
I think a lot of people getstuck on the, like, genre
conventions.
And I talk about this a lot,obviously with thrillers.

(15:39):
But Myster Mystery is kind of inthere as well.
Like sometimes I think as a.
As a community podcast, likegroup of people, especially when
we're talking about betareaders, like we're thinking
about like pacing and we'rethinking about like plot twists
and like I think sometimes wehave to go back to like what is
the purpose of books andliterature?
And I think in some ways, Ithink a lot of us were drawn to

(15:59):
write stories because it helpsus better understand the world.
And I think for readers it helpsthem better understand the world
as well.
And so I think that's soimportant.
And I think it's something.
That writers need to be thinkingabout.
And so I, I love that you kindof have, I like that you have a
few that you hit on.
I think that's really fun.
Sometimes I feel like I need tohave more, but I'm like, maybe I
just need to go deeper into theones I'm, I'm working on.

(16:20):
I think that's really cool.
And do you, are you like, isthis, do you going through
another pass, are you editingmore thoroughly for theme?
Like, do you, do you have toworry about am I going too heavy
or am I, am I going too lighthere?
Is am I being clear about mythemes?
Like how are you navigating thatbalance?

Bianca Marais (16:36):
Yeah, I mean, every book's different.
And I say every book teaches youhow to write it because, you
know, I've now written 6, 7, 8books.
I've published four.
But every book is so entirelydifferent.
And some books, you know, you'llsit down and you'll be like,
okay, this is what I wannaexplore with this book.
This is, you know like with thewitches of Moonshine, MENA, I

(16:57):
knew very clearly I wanted tolook at misogyny.
I want you to look at identityand I wanna look at loss of
memory and who are we when weforget ourselves and can those
we love remember us back intoexistence?
So for that book, I was veryclear on my themes.
This book, the Most PuzzlingMurder.
I was just following thecharacters.

(17:17):
I was focusing more on plots andthemes kind of revealed
themselves to me in the new bookI'm working on.
I found that I was so obsessedwith themes that I was becoming
way too heavy handed in terms ofthe writing of it, and I was
writing in the third person,which allowed my author's voice
as narrator.

(17:37):
To constantly be interjectingwith my take on things and I had
to completely unpack that, putin a much younger narrator, and
do it in the first person sothat I could get the hell outta
my own way and let my characterspeak for herself as opposed to
constantly like hitting readersover the head with the theme.

David Gwyn (17:57):
Yeah.
Oh, that's so interesting.
I love, I love the idea of, ofshifting perspective and point
of view and character as a wayto, to get your own, get outta
your own way.
And I don't know how you knewthis, but I don't know how you
knew my next question was gonnabe about what you're working on
next.
So how much can you tell usabout what, what you're working
on?

Bianca Marais (18:14):
Yeah, so I'm going from a book that had,
what, 12 or 13 POVs, if you, ifyou include all the Choose Your
Own Adventure chapters to, forthe very first time in my life,
writing a book from one point ofview, one main point of view,
character I'm going back to myroots.
It's once again sort of bookclub fiction.

(18:35):
This is dystopian fiction andit's what happens in a dystopian
world when the next civil war isbetween men and women.
So that is, yeah.
So it's, it's a big themes.
Grappling with a lot lots ofresearch, but I'm sort of 15,000
words into it.
And you know, we.

(18:55):
We are going to see where we gowith it.

David Gwyn (18:57):
That's amazing.
That, that sounds reallyinteresting.
I can't wait to have you back onthe podcast so we can talk about
it because it's always so muchfun to to chat with you about,
about what you're working on.
So yeah, so I, I do wanna wrapup here, but before we do I do
want to, to say how much Iappreciate, and I know I, I
speak for the rest of thewriting community who've.
Listen to your podcast.
You know, the shit no one tellsyou about.

(19:17):
Writing is such a, a wonderfulresource.
Whenever I talk to writers, I'malways like, well, what
resources do you use?
Almost everyone either mentionsthe shit, no one tells you about
writing, or if they don't, I'mlike, well, you should be
listening to the shit no onetells you about writing.
So I first wanna just say onbehalf of, of the writers who
are working right now, thank youso much for the work you do
there.

Bianca Marais (19:37):
Thank you, David.
That's so lovely of you to say.
I really, really appreciatethat.
I have two excellent co-hosts.
They're both literary agents.
And yeah, we just, we are justreally trying to get our
listeners to get published.
That is our biggest goal.

David Gwyn (19:51):
Yeah.
Super cool.
So my last question for you isjust where if people are
listening to this and they wannafind out more about you, where
can they find you?
Where can they look you up?

Bianca Marais (19:58):
Yeah, so the podcast has an amazing substack.
So if you look on Substack forthe shit, no one tells you about
writing.
We send, we have two newslettersa week, one's paid for, one is
free.
You can find me on Instagram,Bianca Marie, author, and you
can find the shit no one tellsyou about writing on Instagram
as well.
We most active there.

David Gwyn (20:18):
Lovely.
So I will link to that stuff in,in the description.
Quick, quick access to peoplewho are, are listening to this.
Bianca, as always, thank you somuch.
I really appreciate you takingthe time.

Bianca Marais (20:28):
I appreciate you, David.
Thank you.