April 30, 2025 • 20 mins
Find out more about Stephen Spotswood
Listen to the episode with Douglas Corleone
Come hang out for an interesting conversation with author Stephen Spotswood as he shares his creative process behind his successful Pentecost Parker thriller series.
In this episode, Stephen shares his writing tips for crafting engaging mystery series characters that evolve across multiple books while maintaining reader interest.
Whether you're interested in the writing techniques, genre-blending strategies, or the practical aspects of planning a multi-book series, this interview delivers valuable insights for writers at any stage.
Discover how Spotswood approaches the revision process, balances character development with plot mechanics, and maintains his passion for characters throughout a long-term writing project.
- Series Development Strategy: Learn how to plan and structure a multi-book series
- Genre-Blending Techniques: Discover how Spotswood successfully combines elements of classic mystery, hard-boiled crime, and noir to create a unique series that stands out in the marketplace
- Revision Process for Character Evolution: Understand Spotswood's two-phase revision approach
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephen Spotswood (00:00):
from a pure nuts and bolts craft perspective
(00:02):
the first draft, I try and getthe plot working.
The general bones of things are,are elegantly shaped.
Or at least have the, thepotential for elegance.
And then
David Gwyn (00:13):
Welcome to Thriller 1 0 1.
Today We're talking aboutcreating a series genre blending
and revising for characterdevelopment.
I'm excited to welcome StevenSpotswood, author of the
acclaimed Pentecost and Parkerseries, which includes his
latest release, dead in theFrame, which is out now, I'm
David Gwyn, a writer navigatingthe world of traditional
publishing.
During this season of theThriller 1 0 1 podcast, we're
(00:34):
gonna continue our focus onbuilding the skills necessary to
write the kinds of thrillersthat land you and agent and
readers.
During this season, I'll besharing some of my own insights.
We're also talking to agents,authors, and other publishing
professionals about the best wayto write a novel.
So if you want the ExpertSecrets, thriller 1 0 1 is where
you're going to find them.
Last time on the podcast, Italked to Douglas Corleone.
(00:55):
I.
Douglas Corleone (00:55):
I think that genres are evolving more and
more are meshing together.
More themes are being related.
David Gwyn (01:05):
We talked about how to identify and navigate the
boundaries between thrillersub-genres, techniques for
incorporating meaningfulpersonal themes into commercial
thriller writing techniques forincorporating themes into
commercial thriller writing, andstrategies for crafting
memorable twist endings thatreaders won't forget.
That episode is linked in thedescription if you wanna check
(01:25):
that out.
In this episode, we're gonnaexplore how Steven Blends
classic mystery tropes with hardboiled crime fiction to create
his unique crime series.
If you're an aspiring author,wondering how to craft
compelling series charactersthat evolve book after book, or
if you've just been strugglingwith genre boundaries, you will
(01:46):
not wanna miss thisconversation.
Steven shares the blueprint forhow he planned a multi-book
series from the beginning, howhe creates character arcs that
develop over individual books,while also contributing to that
larger series evolution thatreaders are looking for.
And he also shares his practicalapproach to drafting and
revision.
And these insights could be themissing piece in your writing
(02:07):
journey.
So whether you're drafting yourfirst novel or planning your own
series, be sure to hang outuntil the end where there's a
specific writing challenge thatwill help you implement Steven's
approach to characterdevelopment, into your own work.
Steven, thanks so much for beingon the Thriller 101 podcast.
Stephen Spotswood (02:23):
so much for inviting me.
David Gwyn (02:25):
Yeah, I'm really excited to chat with you.
So your novel Dead in the Frame,which will be out by the time
people are listening to this,but this is book five in the
series, so I need to know, is itstill exciting or is it just
another day?
Stephen Spotswood (02:37):
Oh my God.
No, it's still super exciting.
Like there are
David Gwyn (02:39):
Nice.
Stephen Spotswood (02:39):
about writing that never get old.
Having a, like, being able towrite the series and also just
having a new book come out is,is always a thrill.
David Gwyn (02:47):
Yeah, cool.
Stephen Spotswood (02:48):
has not gotten old at all.
David Gwyn (02:50):
Yeah, very cool.
So, can you tell us what thisstory's about?
Stephen Spotswood (02:53):
Sure.
So, so for those of you who, forlisteners who might not know
what the entire series is aboutPentecostal Parker is a modern
take on the golden age mysterywith like a heavy dose of hard
blooded crime.
The series takes place in NewYork City in the 1940s.
where Lillian Pentecost is themost sought after detective in
the city, if not the country.
She's an eccentric genius who'sbecoming more and more limited
(03:15):
because of her battle withmultiple sclerosis.
And so she leaves her legwork toher right hand woman, Willow
Jean Will Parker.
That's sort of like the, thepitch for the series.
And like, the series has allowedme over the course of several
books to play with like, oldschool mystery tropes.
And so Dead in the Frame tacklesthe trope of our detective is
(03:35):
arrested for a crime that shedid not commit.
So Dead in the Frame seesLillian Pentecost arrested and
jailed for the murder of JessupClincannon, who has been a
character in previous books inthe series.
And Will, her, her right handwoman is left her own,
basically, to try and solve thiscrime you know, before her boss
(03:57):
is sentenced, to life in prison.
So yeah, so that's, that is the,that is book five.
David Gwyn (04:04):
Nice.
So, so tell me a little bitabout this genre, because it
feels to me like a blend ofcrime, noir, and mystery.
Do I, how, how close am I?
Stephen Spotswood (04:14):
you're very, you're very, very close.
So it's deeply inspired by RexStout's Nero Wolf series which
is a series of mysteries hewrote from the 1930s through the
1970s.
And he was, I don't know if hewas the only, but he was
definitely the most prominentand prolific writer who took the
old school English murdermystery, the like genius
detective solving crimes fromhis desk.
(04:36):
Let's get everybody in the roomat the end and point the finger.
And he combined it with the hardboiled American voice.
And so I kind of took thattemplate, added some, well I
didn't add noir sointentionally, but I said it in
the, you know, starting in 1945and Will Parker, my lead
character, is queer and in 1945,that's just sort of, like, the
(05:00):
noir just happens.
Because the world just gets,like, more difficult and darker
for her in many ways.
So, like, so yeah, there's noirin there.
And then I like adding, like, alittle bit of pulp adventure.
And like, just to push itoutside of the bounds of, like,
straight up noir.
Crime realism it allows me tohave like some great action
(05:21):
scenes and hopefully a littlebit of fun.
David Gwyn (05:24):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's super cool.
It's so I, I run a community forwriters who are trying to get
traditionally published, youknow, grab an agent and a
publisher.
And we talk about genres a lot.
And, and one of the things thatI think a lot of writers are
trying to, like, fit into agenre, like, they're trying to,
like, be a genre so they'remarketable and that an agent
knows what they're, what theyare, but I tell them a lot.
(05:44):
I think that this kind of newblending of genres, especially
in thriller fiction, and kind oflike the thriller, mystery,
noir, crime, suspense, like all,The blending of, of these genres
is really where we get coolstuff.
And I think that this is like acase in point here where you're
taking, you know, historicalfiction and, and like grabbing a
(06:06):
little bit of everything andmixing it together.
And it makes this really uniquestory.
And I think that's so cool.
Stephen Spotswood (06:12):
Okay, thank you.
I, I
David Gwyn (06:14):
Yeah.
Stephen Spotswood (06:14):
like I'm I, I do think like some of the most
interesting stuff is when peoplecross the line between, between
thriller and mystery or, orhorror and mystery or things
like that yeah.
David Gwyn (06:25):
Yeah, that's awesome.
So this is, this is book five.
Like we mentioned, I want you totake us back to book one if you
can, like take us all the wayback to, to when you're writing
book one.
Point that this would be aseries?
I mean, did you always know thatthese characters in the world
would kind of evolve this way ordid that come like later on?
Stephen Spotswood (06:42):
since it was so inspired by Nero Wolf and
Rexalt wrote, oh, gosh, 60 somenovels and short stories between
the
David Gwyn (06:52):
Oh, wow.
Oh,
Stephen Spotswood (06:56):
could write that many, I hope to someday but
no, I had the intention of itbeing a series from the start.
I at least gave myself The opendoor to let it be a series like
like in fortune favors the dead,the first book in the series,
it's like the classic it's likea murderous meet cute between
Lillian and Will it sort ofintroduces everybody and I give
(07:20):
them, like, yeah, this is, sothis is deeply inspired by Nero
Wolf, but it's been compared alot to Agatha Christie and it's
also inspired by SherlockHolmes.
and I gave them a Moriarty inFortune Favors the Dead.
I gave them somebody who, who issmart and cunning and morally
grey enough that it makesrooting against her difficult.
(07:43):
And I was like, here we go, thisis a, this is, they didn't, and
you know, that, that was an openended plot thread.
I'd hoped to, to carry on.
And like, by the time I hadfinished the first draft of
Fortune Favors the Dead, I hadseveral books planned out.
I
David Gwyn (07:58):
I
Stephen Spotswood (07:58):
at first it was like a five book arc.
And then it sort of like grew alittle bit.
Like I, was like, no, I cannotdo this in a book, in one book.
I expanded it into that kind ofthing.
But like I knew, I knew thatLillian Pentecost was going to
be arrested the murder ofsomebody.
that one of the books is goingto deal with Will having to,
(08:18):
like, prove her innocence.
I knew that, like, in 2018.
I don't, I did not have any,many other details.
But I knew that because I sortof, like, had these old school
tropes that I wanted to, to playwith and expand and subvert.
And that was one of them.
Like the second book in theseries, Murder Under Her Skin is
(08:41):
You know, big city detectives goto a small town, solve a murder.
The next one in the series islike a serial killer hunt in, in
1940s New York.
So yes, so yeah, short, theshort story, short version of
that long rambling response isyes, I did have like this
planned as a series from thestart.
David Gwyn (08:59):
think that's so cool.
And so it sounds like to me andcorrect me if I'm wrong, but it
sounds like to me, you had thesecharacters that you developed
that you thought were reallyinteresting and compelling,
which, which they are.
And then it sounds like youjust.
You kind of thought aboutdifferent, whether it was the
tropes you wanted to subvert or,or, or like the stories you
wanted to tell, and then youjust infused those characters.
(09:21):
Like you were like, Oh, serialkiller story.
Like that would be fun to write.
Let me bring my characters thatI've got into that story.
Is that kind of how it went?
Stephen Spotswood (09:28):
A little bit, yeah It was also, like, the
creation of the characters inthat first book sort of helped
define what the next books wouldlook like.
Like, the fact that I made Will,like, spend five years at a
traveling circus not, like,that's deeply defined, like, the
palette that I draw from in theseries.
And it meant that, like, in thenext book, like, she would go
(09:50):
back to her roots and solve themurder of a friend at the
circus.
So yeah, it was also, and alsoit wasn't just like the tropes
that were defining the arc ofthings.
So like one of the definingcharacteristics of the Nero Wolf
series is that while the worldaround them changes throughout
the decades, the characters staythe same.
The characters 1930 are the sameones from 1970 pretty much.
(10:14):
And I, that, I didn't want that.
I wanted, I wanted progress.
I wanted them to grow.
I wanted them to change.
Also, by by giving LillianPentecost multiple sclerosis, I
kind of put a ticking clock onthings.
David Gwyn (10:27):
Yeah.
Stephen Spotswood (10:27):
on her ability to do her job, but also
Will's to, like, become a betterdetective.
So, like, that's also, like, athing that defines, like, each
book is Just how they change,like what the trauma of going
through, what they go throughdoes to them, what lessons they
learn really sort of has shapedwhere I get to go.
David Gwyn (10:48):
Yeah.
It's really interesting.
And like you mentioned, you, youwanted your characters,
characters to grow and change.
And I feel like that's somethingthat either happens or doesn't
in, in, in series.
And then that's one of thethings like kind of a hallmark
of a series sometimes is thatlike, well, the characters are
kind of the same in each book.
They don't really grow andevolve.
And so can you talk a little bitabout that process of, you know,
(11:10):
you have this series where youhave these characters that, that
people enjoy and that you likewriting about.
They have this kind of likeoverarching arc that they're on
as characters, but also withineach book, you know, they have
like this character arc.
Can you talk about how youmanage that and think through
that?
Yeah.
Stephen Spotswood (11:28):
from, okay, from a pure nuts and bolts craft
perspective I work through, likethe first draft, I try and get
the plot working.
Like I try and make sure thatthe order of events work, that
the clues are laid out.
in the correct order that, youknow, the general bones of
things are, are elegantlyshaped.
Or at least have the, thepotential for elegance.
(11:49):
And then, and then the nextdraft and like subsequent
drafts, I go in and I ask, okay,how are the, how is the events
of this book impacting Will andLillian on an emotional level?
Like how is, how is Willreacting to Her boss being in
jail of having to rely on herherself in a way she has never
(12:10):
had to before, of the potentialthat of like the, the, the sky
high stakes that she is playingwith.
How is Lillian dealing withincarceration?
How, how is her illness dealingwith incarceration?
And, and that kind of thing.
So that, that is sort of like,that is how I shape sort of the
arc of.
Of, like, the individual book,as for, like, how I go from,
(12:33):
like, the whole series, like,book to book, I, I do, like,
they, they do make the samemistakes, like, over and over
again but they're, they makethem on a different, like, they
keep learning and they just sortof, like, they make the same
mistakes but not in the sameway.
They make the mistake, they failbetter each time.
But they are, but, you know,it's like, they have, you know,
Will and Lillian have their ownpersonalities, they have their
(12:55):
own drawbacks, they have thethings, their blind spots, and
those don't go away after, youknow, several years and multiple
adventures and murders andgunfights.
David Gwyn (13:07):
And that's, and that's, what's going to make
them feel human in a lot of waystoo, you know?
Stephen Spotswood (13:11):
I hope so.
David Gwyn (13:12):
Cool.
So I, I also, I got to call backto this cause this is, this is
my new motto, the, the potentialfor elegance.
I think that is like, that isthe goal of every first draft,
that it has some.
Some potential for elegance.
Stephen Spotswood (13:24):
yeah, like, it, you just want it, you know,
I whoever described it as like,you know, as using the sculptor
metaphor is
David Gwyn (13:32):
Yeah,
Stephen Spotswood (13:34):
this block of rock, block of stone.
You just wanna get it into ashape that looks like the story
you wanna tell.
And then like with eachsubsequent draft, I can like
smooth it out and smooth it out.
And like once it's done, I can,you know, a reader doesn't think
about like that it's gonethrough like 20 drafts.
They just I think it appearedthat way all at once and I'm
(13:54):
happy to let them except onpodcasts where I'd, where I
admit to it,
David Gwyn (13:59):
exactly.
So I gotta know, what are youworking on now?
What's the project you're intonow?
Stephen Spotswood (14:06):
I spent so I, so I know there will be, there
will be some kind of gap betweenbooks five, book five and six.
I dunno how long it's gonna be.
And so I have taken, I took muchof the summer and fall working
on a contemporary.
Murder Mystery Thriller totallyoutside of the Pentecostal
Parker world.
(14:27):
And I have, like, one moredecent revision to go in the
next, like, month.
And then hopefully, hopefullythat will, like, go out to, to
editors.
My agent will send that outsometime.
early in 2025.
That's the hope.
David Gwyn (14:45):
Nice.
Stephen Spotswood (14:45):
today, very specifically today I was working
on a, a Pentecostal Parker shortstory.
Which I've, I've never writtenbefore, but I had an idea I, I,
all of my launch, all of my booklaunches have been with a one
more page books in Falls Church,Virginia.
And they're, I, they'rewonderful.
My wife is also an author andall of her launches have been
(15:07):
there as well.
And I offer, like, I will go andlike, you can order signed books
from them.
And I will go and I will signthem and then they'll get mailed
out across the country.
David Gwyn (15:16):
Cool.
Stephen Spotswood (15:16):
to do something as like a promotion
for For pre orders for thisnewest book, so I'm like, you
know what, I'm, maybe I have ashort story in me that I can
provide, if you, in, provideaccess to, like if you pre order
the book from One More Page,they'll, you will not just get
the book, but you'll get like acode that you can then go online
and you will have access to thebook.
(15:38):
A short story which I, I had theidea, like, this week.
I started writing it today.
It, it takes place the fir inthe, in the first six months of
Will's with Lillian Pentecost,which is like a, an area of time
that I have not explored at allbecause
David Gwyn (15:54):
Hmm.
Stephen Spotswood (15:54):
year time jump within that first book.
So, I'm, I'm having a, I've beenhaving a ball today writing it.
I
David Gwyn (16:00):
That's a fun
Stephen Spotswood (16:01):
It has the potential for elegance.
I hope, if, if it succeeds, if,if the potential becomes
actuality, then hopefully otherpeople will be, will read it
too, and, and hopefully have asmuch fun as I am.
David Gwyn (16:13):
Yeah.
Very cool.
And so as somebody now whoyou've, you've got this series
going, but you're also doingsome like standalone stuff.
Can you talk a little bit aboutlike what advice you'd have for
people who.
are thinking about embarking ona series.
Like, is there any kind ofeither advice you'd give or like
checks that they should thinkabout?
Like, Hey, yeah, this does haveseries potential.
(16:35):
Like, are there anything thatyou can have them kind of like,
as they're sitting here thinkingabout, do I want to take on a
series or not?
What, what type of type ofadvice you'd have?
Stephen Spotswood (16:43):
Oh boy I'm sure there's a lot of, of
publishing technical advice oflike, series are hard to sell,
harder to sell there's advicethat an agent would give but the
advice I would give as a writeris don't think about that part
think about, like, do you enjoythese characters enough?
(17:04):
Like, do you, do you have fun?
Do you honestly, like, lovecoming back to them and writing
them?
Because if you are, ifeverything goes Everything goes
according to plan.
You are going to be writing themfor however many years and
forever many, you know,thousands and tens of thousands
and hundreds of thousands ofwords.
(17:24):
So you, you're, the amount oflove you have for writing them
will, hopefully, will directlytranslate into how much readers
will enjoy reading them.
David Gwyn (17:37):
That's super cool.
I think, I think that kind ofcheck on, you know, you might
feel invested in them now, butBut you've got to really be
invested.
Stephen Spotswood (17:47):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, think of it, like, yeah,plan it, like, be like, can I,
can I imagine, like, the nextfive books?
Like, and you don't have tostick to it.
I, I didn't.
Like, I, I have deviated fromthat original plan.
But like, Just think about itand make sure that you have, you
have that gas in your tank.
David Gwyn (18:03):
Yeah, yeah, that's really cool.
That's awesome.
So my last question for you isjust where can people find you?
Where can people look you up?
Stephen Spotswood (18:09):
You can find my, find me on my website at
stephenspotswood.
com.
I am also on various socialmedias under Playwright Steve.
Because I started my career as aplaywright.
And which social medias arechanging and ever, ever changing
day by day, depending on how theworld is
David Gwyn (18:26):
Yeah, you're not alone.
Stephen Spotswood (18:28):
Yes.
Yeah.
So that's where you can find me.
David Gwyn (18:30):
Cool.
Awesome.
Well, Steven, this was so muchfun.
I learned a lot.
This was this was really reallycool.
And And yeah, for people who arelistening go check out Dead in
the Frame.
Great read, great series.
Well done.
And and yeah, thanks for forbeing here.
Thanks for chatting with us.
Stephen Spotswood (18:46):
you.
Thanks for inviting me.
David Gwyn (18:47):
Alright, and that's it.
I was particularly intrigued bySteven's approach to drafting
and revision when he explainedhow he works through the first
draft to get the plot working,to make sure he has the right
order of events and that theclues are laid out in the
correct order.
And then on the next draft, hegoes in and thinks about how the
events of this book are changingand impacting the characters on
(19:08):
an emotional level, this doublelayered approach.
First focusing on plot and thendeepening character development.
It gives us a useful frameworkfor revision.
By separating these parts of ourstory, we can really ensure that
the plot of our book, which isso important in this genre, is
really solid.
But then we get the emotionalresonance of our characters in
(19:31):
that revision So here's yourthriller 1 0 1 challenge for the
week.
Take your protagonist and mapout how they might evolve across
three hypothetical books.
Even if you're doing astandalone, you should still try
this.
Think about what core traitswould remain consistent.
What mistakes might they make?
Book over book I.
(19:52):
What would their relationshipsand worldview look like?
How would it transform spend?
Just, you know, 30 minutes or soexploring this evolution.
Even if you're writing astandalone novel, this exercise
is gonna help you understand thefull scope of your character's
growth.
Thank you for listening toThriller 1 0 1.
If you enjoyed this episode,make sure you subscribe and
leave a review and I will seeyou all next time.
from a pure nuts and bolts craft perspective
(00:02):
the first draft, I try and getthe plot working.
The general bones of things are,are elegantly shaped.
Or at least have the, thepotential for elegance.
And then
David Gwyn (00:13):
Welcome to Thriller 1 0 1.
Today We're talking aboutcreating a series genre blending
and revising for characterdevelopment.
I'm excited to welcome StevenSpotswood, author of the
acclaimed Pentecost and Parkerseries, which includes his
latest release, dead in theFrame, which is out now, I'm
David Gwyn, a writer navigatingthe world of traditional
publishing.
During this season of theThriller 1 0 1 podcast, we're
(00:34):
gonna continue our focus onbuilding the skills necessary to
write the kinds of thrillersthat land you and agent and
readers.
During this season, I'll besharing some of my own insights.
We're also talking to agents,authors, and other publishing
professionals about the best wayto write a novel.
So if you want the ExpertSecrets, thriller 1 0 1 is where
you're going to find them.
Last time on the podcast, Italked to Douglas Corleone.
(00:55):
I.
Douglas Corleone (00:55):
I think that genres are evolving more and
more are meshing together.
More themes are being related.
David Gwyn (01:05):
We talked about how to identify and navigate the
boundaries between thrillersub-genres, techniques for
incorporating meaningfulpersonal themes into commercial
thriller writing techniques forincorporating themes into
commercial thriller writing, andstrategies for crafting
memorable twist endings thatreaders won't forget.
That episode is linked in thedescription if you wanna check
(01:25):
that out.
In this episode, we're gonnaexplore how Steven Blends
classic mystery tropes with hardboiled crime fiction to create
his unique crime series.
If you're an aspiring author,wondering how to craft
compelling series charactersthat evolve book after book, or
if you've just been strugglingwith genre boundaries, you will
(01:46):
not wanna miss thisconversation.
Steven shares the blueprint forhow he planned a multi-book
series from the beginning, howhe creates character arcs that
develop over individual books,while also contributing to that
larger series evolution thatreaders are looking for.
And he also shares his practicalapproach to drafting and
revision.
And these insights could be themissing piece in your writing
(02:07):
journey.
So whether you're drafting yourfirst novel or planning your own
series, be sure to hang outuntil the end where there's a
specific writing challenge thatwill help you implement Steven's
approach to characterdevelopment, into your own work.
Steven, thanks so much for beingon the Thriller 101 podcast.
Stephen Spotswood (02:23):
so much for inviting me.
David Gwyn (02:25):
Yeah, I'm really excited to chat with you.
So your novel Dead in the Frame,which will be out by the time
people are listening to this,but this is book five in the
series, so I need to know, is itstill exciting or is it just
another day?
Stephen Spotswood (02:37):
Oh my God.
No, it's still super exciting.
Like there are
David Gwyn (02:39):
Nice.
Stephen Spotswood (02:39):
about writing that never get old.
Having a, like, being able towrite the series and also just
having a new book come out is,is always a thrill.
David Gwyn (02:47):
Yeah, cool.
Stephen Spotswood (02:48):
has not gotten old at all.
David Gwyn (02:50):
Yeah, very cool.
So, can you tell us what thisstory's about?
Stephen Spotswood (02:53):
Sure.
So, so for those of you who, forlisteners who might not know
what the entire series is aboutPentecostal Parker is a modern
take on the golden age mysterywith like a heavy dose of hard
blooded crime.
The series takes place in NewYork City in the 1940s.
where Lillian Pentecost is themost sought after detective in
the city, if not the country.
She's an eccentric genius who'sbecoming more and more limited
(03:15):
because of her battle withmultiple sclerosis.
And so she leaves her legwork toher right hand woman, Willow
Jean Will Parker.
That's sort of like the, thepitch for the series.
And like, the series has allowedme over the course of several
books to play with like, oldschool mystery tropes.
And so Dead in the Frame tacklesthe trope of our detective is
(03:35):
arrested for a crime that shedid not commit.
So Dead in the Frame seesLillian Pentecost arrested and
jailed for the murder of JessupClincannon, who has been a
character in previous books inthe series.
And Will, her, her right handwoman is left her own,
basically, to try and solve thiscrime you know, before her boss
(03:57):
is sentenced, to life in prison.
So yeah, so that's, that is the,that is book five.
David Gwyn (04:04):
Nice.
So, so tell me a little bitabout this genre, because it
feels to me like a blend ofcrime, noir, and mystery.
Do I, how, how close am I?
Stephen Spotswood (04:14):
you're very, you're very, very close.
So it's deeply inspired by RexStout's Nero Wolf series which
is a series of mysteries hewrote from the 1930s through the
1970s.
And he was, I don't know if hewas the only, but he was
definitely the most prominentand prolific writer who took the
old school English murdermystery, the like genius
detective solving crimes fromhis desk.
(04:36):
Let's get everybody in the roomat the end and point the finger.
And he combined it with the hardboiled American voice.
And so I kind of took thattemplate, added some, well I
didn't add noir sointentionally, but I said it in
the, you know, starting in 1945and Will Parker, my lead
character, is queer and in 1945,that's just sort of, like, the
(05:00):
noir just happens.
Because the world just gets,like, more difficult and darker
for her in many ways.
So, like, so yeah, there's noirin there.
And then I like adding, like, alittle bit of pulp adventure.
And like, just to push itoutside of the bounds of, like,
straight up noir.
Crime realism it allows me tohave like some great action
(05:21):
scenes and hopefully a littlebit of fun.
David Gwyn (05:24):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's super cool.
It's so I, I run a community forwriters who are trying to get
traditionally published, youknow, grab an agent and a
publisher.
And we talk about genres a lot.
And, and one of the things thatI think a lot of writers are
trying to, like, fit into agenre, like, they're trying to,
like, be a genre so they'remarketable and that an agent
knows what they're, what theyare, but I tell them a lot.
(05:44):
I think that this kind of newblending of genres, especially
in thriller fiction, and kind oflike the thriller, mystery,
noir, crime, suspense, like all,The blending of, of these genres
is really where we get coolstuff.
And I think that this is like acase in point here where you're
taking, you know, historicalfiction and, and like grabbing a
(06:06):
little bit of everything andmixing it together.
And it makes this really uniquestory.
And I think that's so cool.
Stephen Spotswood (06:12):
Okay, thank you.
I, I
David Gwyn (06:14):
Yeah.
Stephen Spotswood (06:14):
like I'm I, I do think like some of the most
interesting stuff is when peoplecross the line between, between
thriller and mystery or, orhorror and mystery or things
like that yeah.
David Gwyn (06:25):
Yeah, that's awesome.
So this is, this is book five.
Like we mentioned, I want you totake us back to book one if you
can, like take us all the wayback to, to when you're writing
book one.
Point that this would be aseries?
I mean, did you always know thatthese characters in the world
would kind of evolve this way ordid that come like later on?
Stephen Spotswood (06:42):
since it was so inspired by Nero Wolf and
Rexalt wrote, oh, gosh, 60 somenovels and short stories between
the
David Gwyn (06:52):
Oh, wow.
Oh,
Stephen Spotswood (06:56):
could write that many, I hope to someday but
no, I had the intention of itbeing a series from the start.
I at least gave myself The opendoor to let it be a series like
like in fortune favors the dead,the first book in the series,
it's like the classic it's likea murderous meet cute between
Lillian and Will it sort ofintroduces everybody and I give
(07:20):
them, like, yeah, this is, sothis is deeply inspired by Nero
Wolf, but it's been compared alot to Agatha Christie and it's
also inspired by SherlockHolmes.
and I gave them a Moriarty inFortune Favors the Dead.
I gave them somebody who, who issmart and cunning and morally
grey enough that it makesrooting against her difficult.
(07:43):
And I was like, here we go, thisis a, this is, they didn't, and
you know, that, that was an openended plot thread.
I'd hoped to, to carry on.
And like, by the time I hadfinished the first draft of
Fortune Favors the Dead, I hadseveral books planned out.
I
David Gwyn (07:58):
I
Stephen Spotswood (07:58):
at first it was like a five book arc.
And then it sort of like grew alittle bit.
Like I, was like, no, I cannotdo this in a book, in one book.
I expanded it into that kind ofthing.
But like I knew, I knew thatLillian Pentecost was going to
be arrested the murder ofsomebody.
that one of the books is goingto deal with Will having to,
(08:18):
like, prove her innocence.
I knew that, like, in 2018.
I don't, I did not have any,many other details.
But I knew that because I sortof, like, had these old school
tropes that I wanted to, to playwith and expand and subvert.
And that was one of them.
Like the second book in theseries, Murder Under Her Skin is
(08:41):
You know, big city detectives goto a small town, solve a murder.
The next one in the series islike a serial killer hunt in, in
1940s New York.
So yes, so yeah, short, theshort story, short version of
that long rambling response isyes, I did have like this
planned as a series from thestart.
David Gwyn (08:59):
think that's so cool.
And so it sounds like to me andcorrect me if I'm wrong, but it
sounds like to me, you had thesecharacters that you developed
that you thought were reallyinteresting and compelling,
which, which they are.
And then it sounds like youjust.
You kind of thought aboutdifferent, whether it was the
tropes you wanted to subvert or,or, or like the stories you
wanted to tell, and then youjust infused those characters.
(09:21):
Like you were like, Oh, serialkiller story.
Like that would be fun to write.
Let me bring my characters thatI've got into that story.
Is that kind of how it went?
Stephen Spotswood (09:28):
A little bit, yeah It was also, like, the
creation of the characters inthat first book sort of helped
define what the next books wouldlook like.
Like, the fact that I made Will,like, spend five years at a
traveling circus not, like,that's deeply defined, like, the
palette that I draw from in theseries.
And it meant that, like, in thenext book, like, she would go
(09:50):
back to her roots and solve themurder of a friend at the
circus.
So yeah, it was also, and alsoit wasn't just like the tropes
that were defining the arc ofthings.
So like one of the definingcharacteristics of the Nero Wolf
series is that while the worldaround them changes throughout
the decades, the characters staythe same.
The characters 1930 are the sameones from 1970 pretty much.
(10:14):
And I, that, I didn't want that.
I wanted, I wanted progress.
I wanted them to grow.
I wanted them to change.
Also, by by giving LillianPentecost multiple sclerosis, I
kind of put a ticking clock onthings.
David Gwyn (10:27):
Yeah.
Stephen Spotswood (10:27):
on her ability to do her job, but also
Will's to, like, become a betterdetective.
So, like, that's also, like, athing that defines, like, each
book is Just how they change,like what the trauma of going
through, what they go throughdoes to them, what lessons they
learn really sort of has shapedwhere I get to go.
David Gwyn (10:48):
Yeah.
It's really interesting.
And like you mentioned, you, youwanted your characters,
characters to grow and change.
And I feel like that's somethingthat either happens or doesn't
in, in, in series.
And then that's one of thethings like kind of a hallmark
of a series sometimes is thatlike, well, the characters are
kind of the same in each book.
They don't really grow andevolve.
And so can you talk a little bitabout that process of, you know,
(11:10):
you have this series where youhave these characters that, that
people enjoy and that you likewriting about.
They have this kind of likeoverarching arc that they're on
as characters, but also withineach book, you know, they have
like this character arc.
Can you talk about how youmanage that and think through
that?
Yeah.
Stephen Spotswood (11:28):
from, okay, from a pure nuts and bolts craft
perspective I work through, likethe first draft, I try and get
the plot working.
Like I try and make sure thatthe order of events work, that
the clues are laid out.
in the correct order that, youknow, the general bones of
things are, are elegantlyshaped.
Or at least have the, thepotential for elegance.
(11:49):
And then, and then the nextdraft and like subsequent
drafts, I go in and I ask, okay,how are the, how is the events
of this book impacting Will andLillian on an emotional level?
Like how is, how is Willreacting to Her boss being in
jail of having to rely on herherself in a way she has never
(12:10):
had to before, of the potentialthat of like the, the, the sky
high stakes that she is playingwith.
How is Lillian dealing withincarceration?
How, how is her illness dealingwith incarceration?
And, and that kind of thing.
So that, that is sort of like,that is how I shape sort of the
arc of.
Of, like, the individual book,as for, like, how I go from,
(12:33):
like, the whole series, like,book to book, I, I do, like,
they, they do make the samemistakes, like, over and over
again but they're, they makethem on a different, like, they
keep learning and they just sortof, like, they make the same
mistakes but not in the sameway.
They make the mistake, they failbetter each time.
But they are, but, you know,it's like, they have, you know,
Will and Lillian have their ownpersonalities, they have their
(12:55):
own drawbacks, they have thethings, their blind spots, and
those don't go away after, youknow, several years and multiple
adventures and murders andgunfights.
David Gwyn (13:07):
And that's, and that's, what's going to make
them feel human in a lot of waystoo, you know?
Stephen Spotswood (13:11):
I hope so.
David Gwyn (13:12):
Cool.
So I, I also, I got to call backto this cause this is, this is
my new motto, the, the potentialfor elegance.
I think that is like, that isthe goal of every first draft,
that it has some.
Some potential for elegance.
Stephen Spotswood (13:24):
yeah, like, it, you just want it, you know,
I whoever described it as like,you know, as using the sculptor
metaphor is
David Gwyn (13:32):
Yeah,
Stephen Spotswood (13:34):
this block of rock, block of stone.
You just wanna get it into ashape that looks like the story
you wanna tell.
And then like with eachsubsequent draft, I can like
smooth it out and smooth it out.
And like once it's done, I can,you know, a reader doesn't think
about like that it's gonethrough like 20 drafts.
They just I think it appearedthat way all at once and I'm
(13:54):
happy to let them except onpodcasts where I'd, where I
admit to it,
David Gwyn (13:59):
exactly.
So I gotta know, what are youworking on now?
What's the project you're intonow?
Stephen Spotswood (14:06):
I spent so I, so I know there will be, there
will be some kind of gap betweenbooks five, book five and six.
I dunno how long it's gonna be.
And so I have taken, I took muchof the summer and fall working
on a contemporary.
Murder Mystery Thriller totallyoutside of the Pentecostal
Parker world.
(14:27):
And I have, like, one moredecent revision to go in the
next, like, month.
And then hopefully, hopefullythat will, like, go out to, to
editors.
My agent will send that outsometime.
early in 2025.
That's the hope.
David Gwyn (14:45):
Nice.
Stephen Spotswood (14:45):
today, very specifically today I was working
on a, a Pentecostal Parker shortstory.
Which I've, I've never writtenbefore, but I had an idea I, I,
all of my launch, all of my booklaunches have been with a one
more page books in Falls Church,Virginia.
And they're, I, they'rewonderful.
My wife is also an author andall of her launches have been
(15:07):
there as well.
And I offer, like, I will go andlike, you can order signed books
from them.
And I will go and I will signthem and then they'll get mailed
out across the country.
David Gwyn (15:16):
Cool.
Stephen Spotswood (15:16):
to do something as like a promotion
for For pre orders for thisnewest book, so I'm like, you
know what, I'm, maybe I have ashort story in me that I can
provide, if you, in, provideaccess to, like if you pre order
the book from One More Page,they'll, you will not just get
the book, but you'll get like acode that you can then go online
and you will have access to thebook.
(15:38):
A short story which I, I had theidea, like, this week.
I started writing it today.
It, it takes place the fir inthe, in the first six months of
Will's with Lillian Pentecost,which is like a, an area of time
that I have not explored at allbecause
David Gwyn (15:54):
Hmm.
Stephen Spotswood (15:54):
year time jump within that first book.
So, I'm, I'm having a, I've beenhaving a ball today writing it.
I
David Gwyn (16:00):
That's a fun
Stephen Spotswood (16:01):
It has the potential for elegance.
I hope, if, if it succeeds, if,if the potential becomes
actuality, then hopefully otherpeople will be, will read it
too, and, and hopefully have asmuch fun as I am.
David Gwyn (16:13):
Yeah.
Very cool.
And so as somebody now whoyou've, you've got this series
going, but you're also doingsome like standalone stuff.
Can you talk a little bit aboutlike what advice you'd have for
people who.
are thinking about embarking ona series.
Like, is there any kind ofeither advice you'd give or like
checks that they should thinkabout?
Like, Hey, yeah, this does haveseries potential.
(16:35):
Like, are there anything thatyou can have them kind of like,
as they're sitting here thinkingabout, do I want to take on a
series or not?
What, what type of type ofadvice you'd have?
Stephen Spotswood (16:43):
Oh boy I'm sure there's a lot of, of
publishing technical advice oflike, series are hard to sell,
harder to sell there's advicethat an agent would give but the
advice I would give as a writeris don't think about that part
think about, like, do you enjoythese characters enough?
(17:04):
Like, do you, do you have fun?
Do you honestly, like, lovecoming back to them and writing
them?
Because if you are, ifeverything goes Everything goes
according to plan.
You are going to be writing themfor however many years and
forever many, you know,thousands and tens of thousands
and hundreds of thousands ofwords.
(17:24):
So you, you're, the amount oflove you have for writing them
will, hopefully, will directlytranslate into how much readers
will enjoy reading them.
David Gwyn (17:37):
That's super cool.
I think, I think that kind ofcheck on, you know, you might
feel invested in them now, butBut you've got to really be
invested.
Stephen Spotswood (17:47):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, think of it, like, yeah,plan it, like, be like, can I,
can I imagine, like, the nextfive books?
Like, and you don't have tostick to it.
I, I didn't.
Like, I, I have deviated fromthat original plan.
But like, Just think about itand make sure that you have, you
have that gas in your tank.
David Gwyn (18:03):
Yeah, yeah, that's really cool.
That's awesome.
So my last question for you isjust where can people find you?
Where can people look you up?
Stephen Spotswood (18:09):
You can find my, find me on my website at
stephenspotswood.
com.
I am also on various socialmedias under Playwright Steve.
Because I started my career as aplaywright.
And which social medias arechanging and ever, ever changing
day by day, depending on how theworld is
David Gwyn (18:26):
Yeah, you're not alone.
Stephen Spotswood (18:28):
Yes.
Yeah.
So that's where you can find me.
David Gwyn (18:30):
Cool.
Awesome.
Well, Steven, this was so muchfun.
I learned a lot.
This was this was really reallycool.
And And yeah, for people who arelistening go check out Dead in
the Frame.
Great read, great series.
Well done.
And and yeah, thanks for forbeing here.
Thanks for chatting with us.
Stephen Spotswood (18:46):
you.
Thanks for inviting me.
David Gwyn (18:47):
Alright, and that's it.
I was particularly intrigued bySteven's approach to drafting
and revision when he explainedhow he works through the first
draft to get the plot working,to make sure he has the right
order of events and that theclues are laid out in the
correct order.
And then on the next draft, hegoes in and thinks about how the
events of this book are changingand impacting the characters on
(19:08):
an emotional level, this doublelayered approach.
First focusing on plot and thendeepening character development.
It gives us a useful frameworkfor revision.
By separating these parts of ourstory, we can really ensure that
the plot of our book, which isso important in this genre, is
really solid.
But then we get the emotionalresonance of our characters in
(19:31):
that revision So here's yourthriller 1 0 1 challenge for the
week.
Take your protagonist and mapout how they might evolve across
three hypothetical books.
Even if you're doing astandalone, you should still try
this.
Think about what core traitswould remain consistent.
What mistakes might they make?
Book over book I.
(19:52):
What would their relationshipsand worldview look like?
How would it transform spend?
Just, you know, 30 minutes or soexploring this evolution.
Even if you're writing astandalone novel, this exercise
is gonna help you understand thefull scope of your character's
growth.
Thank you for listening toThriller 1 0 1.
If you enjoyed this episode,make sure you subscribe and
leave a review and I will seeyou all next time.
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