September 18, 2025 • 25 mins
Some of us are here to teach the very thing we once feared the most. That's the powerful truth at the heart of this week's Thrive After 45™ episode.
I sat down with Dr. Doreen Downing, a clinical psychologist who spent decades helping people, all while secretly struggling with intense public speaking anxiety.
It wasn't just nerves...it was a crippling fear that she couldn't "knuckle her way through" or overcome by memorizing scripts.
Instead of letting her fear win, Doreen chose to do the deep inner work. What she discovered became her life's signature contribution...the Find Your Voice method.
It's a powerful mix of psychology, mindfulness, and her own experience, created to help people stop performing and start expressing their truth in boardrooms, on stages, or at home.
She’s mentored thousands of people over 45 years and was first licensed as a psychotherapist in 1980.
We chat about how to move from pretending to performing and get to your quiet inner truth.
Doreen's work is not about helping people be better speakers, but about helping them be more of who they are.
She shares that what's in your way is actually the way.
She also opens up about what most people get wrong about fear...that it's too big to approach...and how we can start listening to what our fear is trying to teach us.
Doreen's book, "The 7 Secrets to Finding Your Voice," teaches a process of how to be still, be present, and eventually, be yourself. It’s a journey that takes you from the past, where your fears were born, to a courageous confidence in the present moment.
Find out more about Doreen and her work:
- Website: https://doreendowning.com
- Get Her 7 Step Guide to Fearless Speaking: https://doreen7steps.com
Thank you for spending time with me today on the Thrive After 45™ podcast! If this episode spoke to you, be sure to hit that follow button so you never miss one.
And if you loved it, I’d be so grateful if you left a review - it helps more amazing women like you find this show!
Your journey doesn’t stop here - let’s keep the conversation going! Connect with me at denisedrinkwalter.com, and follow @thethriveafter45podcast for daily insp, tips, and support.
Remember, midlife isn’t the end - it’s just the beginning of a new, exciting chapter! Keep thriving, keep shining, and I’ll see you next time!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
What if the very thing thatyou're here to teach.
(00:03):
Is the thing you once feared themost.
Welcome to Thrive after 45.
The podcast where you rememberthe woman you were never meant
to forget.
I'm Denise.
Drink Walter heart whisperer,midlife mirror, and mentor for
the woman awakening to herpower.
This is your space to shedexpectations, collapse
(00:26):
timelines, and return toyourself for you by you because
of you.
It is an absolute honor and aprivilege to welcome and
reintroduce Dr.
Doreen Downing to our showtoday.
Doreen is not just a clinicalpsychologist with a doctorate
(00:48):
from a very prestigiousuniversity.
She's a woman who's crackedopen.
One of the most personalchallenges.
Any of us can face the fear ofusing our voice.
Despite decades of expertise inhuman behavior, Doreen secretly
struggled with intense publicspeaking anxiety, not nerves,
(01:11):
but crippling avoidance.
Instead of hiding behind thetitle, she chose to do the deep
inner work.
And what emerged is her life'ssignature contribution.
The Find your Voice method, apowerful blend of psychology.
Mindfulness and lived experiencecreated to help others break
(01:34):
free from silence.
Finally, speaking their truth,whether in boardrooms, on
stages, or in their own homes.
She's mentored thousands overthe past 45 years.
She was a licensed, she waslicensed as a psychotherapist in
California in 1980 and today.
She's a fearless speaking mentorwho helps people stop performing
(01:58):
and start expressing.
Welcome, welcome, welcome to ourshow today.
Oh, Denise, that was fabulous.
I know I gave you a few, uh,lines too about myself, but what
you just did to integrate andmake it, uh, very, it was just
(02:19):
beautiful.
I just wanna say thank you forwhatever you added to it to make
it feel like, yeah, that's mytruth.
It is absolutely my truth and Ifeel kind of teary just having
it reflected back to me.
Wow.
It, it did life.
Well, it's.
(02:40):
It's been an amazing journey andI can't even begin to understand
the depths of which you've hadto reach to get to what you are
doing now.
I mentioned in the openingsentence, what if your biggest
fear became your life's purposeand you moved?
(03:04):
People and mountains througheverything you've grown and
learned.
And that's exactly what you do.
Yes.
And it's, it's amazing.
Yeah.
It shows all of us what is trulypossible instead of letting the
fear take us over.
I know, or even try and, um,battle the fear and do it
(03:27):
anyway.
I know that that's a, it's a,it's a strategy for some, but
for, uh, more sensitive types,like myself, I, Ooh, I, I
couldn't do it.
I couldn't just.
Pretend or knuckle my waythrough, or memorize, memorize,
memorize.
I have to tell you, when I wasin Toastmasters, I would
(03:47):
memorize a five minute speech.
Right.
And I would do it maybe 50times.
Nevertheless, when I got up infront of folks, I'd forget.
Yeah.
And I know that, uh, that's.
That's part of the problem isnot being able to stand in the
(04:07):
very present moment withwhatever, whoever's in front of
you and be able to say, ah, takemy breath, come back and feel
the words coming from within meas opposed to my script.
Yeah.
Powerful.
There's nothing like it.
It's, it's like you're, you'retapping in like you've said
(04:30):
before, to your truth.
Yes.
Yeah.
And that's a practice.
I mean, it's a learning journeyand that's what's so exciting,
having been a psychologist for45 years here, that it really is
a journey to what, who you aredeeply inside.
Not all the layers that you'vedeveloped, like pleasing or
(04:52):
pretending or, you know, all thekind of P words.
Yeah, the, the performance.
Yes.
Not about and, but in, in, it'skind of difficult, I have to
say, to be a stand for comingback to a quiet inner truth that
(05:14):
you know, and learning how toaccess that.
That's one layer.
And then how to express it andthen how to deal with.
Whatever happens after youexpress it.
And is there, have you found, oreven with the people that you've
worked with, thank heavensyou're doing this work.
I'm so grateful that you aredoing this work.
(05:38):
Um, have you found any of thoselayers in particular more
challenging or is it a wholepackage or is it dependent on
the person?
Well, I'd say they're patterns.
Okay.
'cause you, you know that thereare all sorts of assessments,
personality styles, MyersBriggs, are you introvert or an
extrovert.
And so I think that first.
(06:00):
I, I don't wanna use aparticular assessment.
Sure.
First, I just wanna help peopleunderstand their patterns.
Mm.
And it does seem to kind of fallinto some categories, some of
which I just started to talkabout.
Uh, how do you.
Avoid speaking up and expressingyour truth.
(06:22):
I love what you said about fromthe boardroom.
Well, it's actually from theboardroom to the bedroom.
There you go.
Is your most Yeah.
Your voice is your most, uh,valuable asset.
And so first of all, where arethe places where you feel like
your silenced?
I'm gonna put my hand over mymouth.
You know where you hold back orwhere you get scared.
(06:44):
Those are the, that's the firststep in this in self discovery.
Mm-hmm.
I'm, what I do is, my work ismore about people who wanna be
more of who they are, not justthat are speakers.
Say that again.
'cause that was brilliant.
That was perfect.
That was perfect.
Yeah.
Well, that's, that's, uh, mywork is not about helping people
(07:08):
be better speakers and makingbetter speeches and being better
performers.
Oh, I want people to be trulylined up with who they are, who
they're meant to be, their, andI think that it's a, it's a
deeper place inside of us thatwe have to go to access, but you
(07:29):
also have to learn how to makethat inner journey.
And that's why I love theguiding to me, Denise, to me, I
love travel.
Mm-hmm.
I love to go to a new, anyplace, but a country or a city
or even just out in nature andopen myself up to explore.
(07:50):
And that's the what I bring, Ithink, to people who wanna go
within, because most peopledon't know how to do inner work.
You know, they need a guide.
And so I feel like I, that'swhat my whole life is now.
Whole life.
My training, like you said, mylived experience, I thought that
was a way to to say it has beenabout how to go within face
(08:15):
fear, learn how to embrace it,and then replace it.
And those three are part of atraining I do.
Um, base embrace, replace fear.
Mm.
Love that.
It's, it's a lot easier thanwhat people, you know, because
they get afraid to face theirfear.
(08:36):
Well, I know some ways you can,and it's gonna be maybe even a
little fun.
Thank you for saying thatbecause I.
Beat on this drama lot, and soI'm so glad that you shared.
We make this fear into thebiggest, darkest blackest cloud
(08:58):
that we could ever hold, andit's safer just to avoid it
instead of going into it.
But what I heard you say isit's, it can be even fun because
we explore in ways we wouldn'tnormally do.
Oh, yes.
And what, to me, with this, uh,inner journey of facing fear and
(09:22):
learning how to, there's a, aquote, what's in your way is the
way.
What's in your way is the way,and that is, I think one of the
guideposts is say, okay, if it'sin your way, let's just, I love
the idea of, I'm a big sisteranyway, so I love the idea of
(09:42):
taking somebody's hand and justsaying, oh, look at that.
And then learning how that, yes,it was perhaps a survival
mechanism, uh, that they.
You know that they figured out,luckily early in life to protect
themselves, but sure.
Let's, let's appreciate the factthat the fear did that for you.
(10:04):
Yes, right.
Thank that fear.
Yes, thank you.
Good guy.
There you go.
There you go.
So.
What do most people get wrongabout fear and, and how do we
actually start listening to whatour fear is actually trying to
(10:25):
teach us?
Hmm.
Great questions, both of them.
The first, I'll go for the lastone and I'll, I Sure, sure.
I'm not sure I'll remember thefirst question.
It's okay.
Last that's, I could repeat thelistening.
Because I think that's the, thatis the absolute key to inner
work is being able to, I'll justdo it right now.
(10:48):
Just take a breath, calm thewhole nervous system down, and
to have a place of a quietobserver.
That's through regulating yourbody so that you are, your heart
isn't beating fast, and you'reable to feel grounded in your
belly and your feet.
(11:11):
You know that there's a groundedsense of being in this very,
now, maybe even close the eyes.
I mean, it's, it's kind ofhypnotic, but uh, it is a way
of.
Preparing yourself to facesomething that you know has been
an impediment that's beendifficult for you.
(11:31):
So you train yourself to be aquiet observer, nonjudgmental,
and not really trying to.
Change the fear, but to learnabout it.
To explore it.
So that's the kind of listeningthat I think is, uh, one that
(11:53):
gets, gets the truth, getscloser to the truth.
Right?
An animal that's been, uh,wounded.
'cause that's what we're talkingabout, our wounded voice, uh,
that you've gotta approach verygently.
Mm-hmm.
Slowly, and that seems to be thesame truth about how to approach
(12:14):
fear.
Yeah.
I love that.
What I'm hearing you say is thatyou sit with it.
Mm-hmm.
And I love how you said, don'tbe judgmental, just be at one
with it and try to pull thatlens of curiosity.
Ooh, that's a nice way to sayit.
Lens of curiosity.
(12:36):
Yes.
Ah, what can I learn here?
What, uh, you know, so it, it,it's just a whole different
approach.
So I think your first questionis what do people get wrong
about fear?
Right.
I remembered.
Okay.
So what I think they get wrongabout fear is that they can't do
anything about it.
And that it's, uh, it'ssomething, it is what you said a
(12:59):
few minutes ago.
It's this huge big obstaclethat, uh, is.
It's just too, it, it createstoo much terror in their body
that they, and there is sometruth about trauma, right?
And we don't wanna activate orreactivate trauma.
So that's why this new kind ofdeep, uh, listening with, with
(13:25):
what you say cur curious lens.
Curious lens, yeah.
Lens of curiosity.
Yeah.
Curiosity.
So that's, uh, so I think thatthey get what gets what people
get wrong about fear is thatit's too big, they can't
approach it.
And uh, other people can feelthe fear and do it anyway, but
(13:45):
they can't, so they don't, theydon't really, they haven't
learned that there is, there isan approach.
Right, right.
Yeah, yeah.
That works.
Exactly.
And it doesn't have to beToastmasters.
Because that scary for so manyof the people that I work with
who have tried it and they feellike they go and it's not, it's
not a safe place for them.
(14:07):
For some it is.
I'm not saying it's Sure.
Sure.
Yeah, and I mean, what you havetalked about I think is really
the next level.
I mean, I'm not totally familiarwith Toastmasters.
I have a cursory view of what itis, but it's more just about how
(14:31):
you present.
It's a presentation part, andyou are talking.
Aligning yourself with whom youreally are and taking yourself
and sharing that in a way thatexudes not only confidence, but
comfort from within.
(14:54):
You capture so much of the workthat I do and such great words,
uh, you're, you're just, uh,you're like a, a poet who, uh,
is able to reflect the truth.
Yes.
That is what the way you justexpressed it is it's about
learning more about what'sreally true for yourself and
(15:18):
finding, I would call itcourageous confidence.
To speak up.
Love that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
I love that.
And you mentioned the threedifferent levels.
I can't remember the second one.
The in inside, looking at yourinside, and then the third part
was about what comes back to youas you share.
(15:41):
Yes.
Yeah.
Your truth.
Yeah.
And.
That in itself, I'm sure is anincredible journey for the
people that you work with andhow they get to learn, grow, and
change by getting the feedbackof what people hear or what they
think they hear, right?
(16:03):
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
So the, uh.
A lot of times people are afraidto speak up and, and say what
they really feel or what theyreally want because they're
going to create something in theother person that they will then
have to deal with.
So that's what they're reallyavoiding.
(16:24):
They're avoiding the consequenceof expressing their truth.
Yeah.
And so, um.
There are ways to express truth,especially let's say anger.
Sure.
In a way that's much morerelational or compassionate or,
you know, being able to reallyown your own truth rather than
(16:47):
just a blasting at somebody.
So I think those are somecommunication techniques that I
think can help people whenthey're actually.
More'cause there's the innerwork and then of course there's
the outer work of how to expressit.
And then, uh, if it goes wrong,how to say, oh, I actually meant
(17:07):
to say this, this and that.
Yeah.
You know, like, yeah.
Yeah.
And or except that people havereactions and it's none of your
business how they react to you.
Right.
Exactly.
That's, that's theirs to ownwhat they come back with.
That's about you.
That's not about me.
And if there's learning for meto understand that I didn't send
(17:30):
my message across the way it wasin my body, my mind, my heart,
my soul, I'll rework it so you,I know that you really
understand what it is I wasactually trying to share.
Right?
Yeah.
Beautiful.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What is the secret to beingconfident to express yourself
without that fear standing inthe way?
(17:54):
Hmm.
Ooh, the secret.
Well, my book has seven secrets.
Well, there we go.
We're gonna get your book to getall seven.
Is there one in particularthat's really, I'm glad you said
that.
Yes.
'cause I, I probably don't wannago through all seven, but
that's, yes.
The, the process, the find yourvoice process that I, uh,
(18:18):
develop based on my ownexpertise as a psychologist and
my own lived experience, as yousaid.
Yes.
So, uh, the, see, the one that,oh, there's so many because
there's aspects of it, but Iwould say, uh, all of them, just
as a way of explaining what itis.
Every single one of my sevensecrets begins with Be b, e, be.
(18:42):
I'll just say the first one isbe still, the second one is be
present and then on and on andon till the, the seventh secret
is be yourself.
So we don't start with beingyourself.
You have, that's the journey.
So the stillness is the firstlearning how to still the.
(19:03):
Mind the chatter, learning howto calm your beating heart, how
to, uh, so that's the first isbeing still learning how to be
still in the midst of maybe yourheart is beating, but you can
still have a centered, grounded,uh, sense of stillness inside.
(19:25):
And so the second one, and Iwon't go further, but, and this
is to me what.
What's so powerful about that?
My process is presence.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Be present because so much ofthe fears in the past, whether
it was family, teachers, otherkids, teasing, absolutely.
(19:49):
Culture.
Thou shall not, you know, thatkind of thing.
Religion, all the reasons, theway that we've learned to hide
ourselves and our voice.
Is in the past.
Mm-hmm.
And then what we do is projectit into the future,
anticipating, uh oh, I betternot, or else, uh, or if
(20:13):
something happened in the past,it's gonna happen again.
So learning how to take thatbreath, soften the eyes, that's
another one of the lessons, butit's just.
So the sockets around your eyes,cheeks begin to relax, shoulders
drop, it's magic.
(20:33):
You could do that in anymeeting, right?
Yeah.
You don't have to go anywhere.
You can just be literally, likeyou just said, be still be
present, and Uhhuh.
Do all of that inside yourself.
Everything changes'cause youchange your energy.
We have so much power andcontrol Yes.
That we don't utilize.
(20:54):
But when?
When we don't know.
We can't do, and that's why Dr.
Doreen has so many incrediblegifts to share with you and in
our show notes, we absolutelywill have how to connect with
her and contact her and see allof the incredible things that
(21:14):
she has out in the world rightnow to help all of us find our
voice, right?
Yeah.
And be confident to express whatmatters most.
Yeah.
Oh, and that, and you said inthe show, uh, right at the
beginning of the show that it's,whether it's at home, some of
(21:35):
the work that I do in teachingpeople how to listen, it changes
their relationships.
Yeah, people came back to me andsaid, I said that that's exactly
what he's been wanting from me.
All this or that.
My wife is, you know, that kind,they, they report back the power
(21:56):
of what they learn about beingpresent and about really using
the eyes to stay with.
And, uh, listen with your eyes.
I just feel like I could teachso much right now, but, so
anyway.
Listen with your eyes isanother, is another teaching, I
think.
As opposed, yeah.
(22:17):
Where you, or listen from yourheart.
Hello.
That's a beautiful instruction,isn't it?
Listen.
Mm-hmm.
Listening.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Before we close, is thereanything that you would
absolutely love to leave ouraudience with today?
Any closing remarks?
(22:37):
Any closing comments that arecoming up for you that you wanna
make sure land on?
Two ears for each audiencemember.
Well, I would say the secondstep about facing and embracing
the way that we are withourselves in terms of, um, being
(23:00):
kind and gentle and patient andbeing our own, I guess you might
say something like medicine thatwe bring to ourselves.
The opportunity by the way thatwe say hello in there.
You are okay.
Uh, you could come out now.
I can make it safe for you.
(23:23):
And that's the, the hello inthere.
Feels like if people are stillwith us today, right now, and
just, but when we end, just goHello in there to yourself.
Love that.
I love that.
If this episode and ourconversation has stirred
(23:47):
something in you, if you felt anache of a voice that's still
locked inside or the pull tomaybe speak more clearly or more
boldly, more you, this is yoursign.
Come and explore the ME academy,and it's where we don't just
(24:07):
talk about growth, we live it.
It's where women over 45 rewritethe second half of their lives
with more power, presence, andpurpose than ever before.
You can find all of thisinformation.
In the show notes, you can findall of the incredible
information and Dr.
(24:29):
Doreen Downing's gifts, what acalming presence you have.
I want to thank you so much forbeing here so much.
Yes, well, it's truly, truly,truly a wonderful moment to
share with somebody else who hasdeep heart.
(24:51):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Until next time, speak it, feelit fully.
And don't forget, your nextchapter is not a reinvention.
It is a remembering.
What if the very thing thatyou're here to teach.
(00:03):
Is the thing you once feared themost.
Welcome to Thrive after 45.
The podcast where you rememberthe woman you were never meant
to forget.
I'm Denise.
Drink Walter heart whisperer,midlife mirror, and mentor for
the woman awakening to herpower.
This is your space to shedexpectations, collapse
(00:26):
timelines, and return toyourself for you by you because
of you.
It is an absolute honor and aprivilege to welcome and
reintroduce Dr.
Doreen Downing to our showtoday.
Doreen is not just a clinicalpsychologist with a doctorate
(00:48):
from a very prestigiousuniversity.
She's a woman who's crackedopen.
One of the most personalchallenges.
Any of us can face the fear ofusing our voice.
Despite decades of expertise inhuman behavior, Doreen secretly
struggled with intense publicspeaking anxiety, not nerves,
(01:11):
but crippling avoidance.
Instead of hiding behind thetitle, she chose to do the deep
inner work.
And what emerged is her life'ssignature contribution.
The Find your Voice method, apowerful blend of psychology.
Mindfulness and lived experiencecreated to help others break
(01:34):
free from silence.
Finally, speaking their truth,whether in boardrooms, on
stages, or in their own homes.
She's mentored thousands overthe past 45 years.
She was a licensed, she waslicensed as a psychotherapist in
California in 1980 and today.
She's a fearless speaking mentorwho helps people stop performing
(01:58):
and start expressing.
Welcome, welcome, welcome to ourshow today.
Oh, Denise, that was fabulous.
I know I gave you a few, uh,lines too about myself, but what
you just did to integrate andmake it, uh, very, it was just
(02:19):
beautiful.
I just wanna say thank you forwhatever you added to it to make
it feel like, yeah, that's mytruth.
It is absolutely my truth and Ifeel kind of teary just having
it reflected back to me.
Wow.
It, it did life.
Well, it's.
(02:40):
It's been an amazing journey andI can't even begin to understand
the depths of which you've hadto reach to get to what you are
doing now.
I mentioned in the openingsentence, what if your biggest
fear became your life's purposeand you moved?
(03:04):
People and mountains througheverything you've grown and
learned.
And that's exactly what you do.
Yes.
And it's, it's amazing.
Yeah.
It shows all of us what is trulypossible instead of letting the
fear take us over.
I know, or even try and, um,battle the fear and do it
(03:27):
anyway.
I know that that's a, it's a,it's a strategy for some, but
for, uh, more sensitive types,like myself, I, Ooh, I, I
couldn't do it.
I couldn't just.
Pretend or knuckle my waythrough, or memorize, memorize,
memorize.
I have to tell you, when I wasin Toastmasters, I would
(03:47):
memorize a five minute speech.
Right.
And I would do it maybe 50times.
Nevertheless, when I got up infront of folks, I'd forget.
Yeah.
And I know that, uh, that's.
That's part of the problem isnot being able to stand in the
(04:07):
very present moment withwhatever, whoever's in front of
you and be able to say, ah, takemy breath, come back and feel
the words coming from within meas opposed to my script.
Yeah.
Powerful.
There's nothing like it.
It's, it's like you're, you'retapping in like you've said
(04:30):
before, to your truth.
Yes.
Yeah.
And that's a practice.
I mean, it's a learning journeyand that's what's so exciting,
having been a psychologist for45 years here, that it really is
a journey to what, who you aredeeply inside.
Not all the layers that you'vedeveloped, like pleasing or
(04:52):
pretending or, you know, all thekind of P words.
Yeah, the, the performance.
Yes.
Not about and, but in, in, it'skind of difficult, I have to
say, to be a stand for comingback to a quiet inner truth that
(05:14):
you know, and learning how toaccess that.
That's one layer.
And then how to express it andthen how to deal with.
Whatever happens after youexpress it.
And is there, have you found, oreven with the people that you've
worked with, thank heavensyou're doing this work.
I'm so grateful that you aredoing this work.
(05:38):
Um, have you found any of thoselayers in particular more
challenging or is it a wholepackage or is it dependent on
the person?
Well, I'd say they're patterns.
Okay.
'cause you, you know that thereare all sorts of assessments,
personality styles, MyersBriggs, are you introvert or an
extrovert.
And so I think that first.
(06:00):
I, I don't wanna use aparticular assessment.
Sure.
First, I just wanna help peopleunderstand their patterns.
Mm.
And it does seem to kind of fallinto some categories, some of
which I just started to talkabout.
Uh, how do you.
Avoid speaking up and expressingyour truth.
(06:22):
I love what you said about fromthe boardroom.
Well, it's actually from theboardroom to the bedroom.
There you go.
Is your most Yeah.
Your voice is your most, uh,valuable asset.
And so first of all, where arethe places where you feel like
your silenced?
I'm gonna put my hand over mymouth.
You know where you hold back orwhere you get scared.
(06:44):
Those are the, that's the firststep in this in self discovery.
Mm-hmm.
I'm, what I do is, my work ismore about people who wanna be
more of who they are, not justthat are speakers.
Say that again.
'cause that was brilliant.
That was perfect.
That was perfect.
Yeah.
Well, that's, that's, uh, mywork is not about helping people
(07:08):
be better speakers and makingbetter speeches and being better
performers.
Oh, I want people to be trulylined up with who they are, who
they're meant to be, their, andI think that it's a, it's a
deeper place inside of us thatwe have to go to access, but you
(07:29):
also have to learn how to makethat inner journey.
And that's why I love theguiding to me, Denise, to me, I
love travel.
Mm-hmm.
I love to go to a new, anyplace, but a country or a city
or even just out in nature andopen myself up to explore.
(07:50):
And that's the what I bring, Ithink, to people who wanna go
within, because most peopledon't know how to do inner work.
You know, they need a guide.
And so I feel like I, that'swhat my whole life is now.
Whole life.
My training, like you said, mylived experience, I thought that
was a way to to say it has beenabout how to go within face
(08:15):
fear, learn how to embrace it,and then replace it.
And those three are part of atraining I do.
Um, base embrace, replace fear.
Mm.
Love that.
It's, it's a lot easier thanwhat people, you know, because
they get afraid to face theirfear.
(08:36):
Well, I know some ways you can,and it's gonna be maybe even a
little fun.
Thank you for saying thatbecause I.
Beat on this drama lot, and soI'm so glad that you shared.
We make this fear into thebiggest, darkest blackest cloud
(08:58):
that we could ever hold, andit's safer just to avoid it
instead of going into it.
But what I heard you say isit's, it can be even fun because
we explore in ways we wouldn'tnormally do.
Oh, yes.
And what, to me, with this, uh,inner journey of facing fear and
(09:22):
learning how to, there's a, aquote, what's in your way is the
way.
What's in your way is the way,and that is, I think one of the
guideposts is say, okay, if it'sin your way, let's just, I love
the idea of, I'm a big sisteranyway, so I love the idea of
(09:42):
taking somebody's hand and justsaying, oh, look at that.
And then learning how that, yes,it was perhaps a survival
mechanism, uh, that they.
You know that they figured out,luckily early in life to protect
themselves, but sure.
Let's, let's appreciate the factthat the fear did that for you.
(10:04):
Yes, right.
Thank that fear.
Yes, thank you.
Good guy.
There you go.
There you go.
So.
What do most people get wrongabout fear and, and how do we
actually start listening to whatour fear is actually trying to
(10:25):
teach us?
Hmm.
Great questions, both of them.
The first, I'll go for the lastone and I'll, I Sure, sure.
I'm not sure I'll remember thefirst question.
It's okay.
Last that's, I could repeat thelistening.
Because I think that's the, thatis the absolute key to inner
work is being able to, I'll justdo it right now.
(10:48):
Just take a breath, calm thewhole nervous system down, and
to have a place of a quietobserver.
That's through regulating yourbody so that you are, your heart
isn't beating fast, and you'reable to feel grounded in your
belly and your feet.
(11:11):
You know that there's a groundedsense of being in this very,
now, maybe even close the eyes.
I mean, it's, it's kind ofhypnotic, but uh, it is a way
of.
Preparing yourself to facesomething that you know has been
an impediment that's beendifficult for you.
(11:31):
So you train yourself to be aquiet observer, nonjudgmental,
and not really trying to.
Change the fear, but to learnabout it.
To explore it.
So that's the kind of listeningthat I think is, uh, one that
(11:53):
gets, gets the truth, getscloser to the truth.
Right?
An animal that's been, uh,wounded.
'cause that's what we're talkingabout, our wounded voice, uh,
that you've gotta approach verygently.
Mm-hmm.
Slowly, and that seems to be thesame truth about how to approach
(12:14):
fear.
Yeah.
I love that.
What I'm hearing you say is thatyou sit with it.
Mm-hmm.
And I love how you said, don'tbe judgmental, just be at one
with it and try to pull thatlens of curiosity.
Ooh, that's a nice way to sayit.
Lens of curiosity.
(12:36):
Yes.
Ah, what can I learn here?
What, uh, you know, so it, it,it's just a whole different
approach.
So I think your first questionis what do people get wrong
about fear?
Right.
I remembered.
Okay.
So what I think they get wrongabout fear is that they can't do
anything about it.
And that it's, uh, it'ssomething, it is what you said a
(12:59):
few minutes ago.
It's this huge big obstaclethat, uh, is.
It's just too, it, it createstoo much terror in their body
that they, and there is sometruth about trauma, right?
And we don't wanna activate orreactivate trauma.
So that's why this new kind ofdeep, uh, listening with, with
(13:25):
what you say cur curious lens.
Curious lens, yeah.
Lens of curiosity.
Yeah.
Curiosity.
So that's, uh, so I think thatthey get what gets what people
get wrong about fear is thatit's too big, they can't
approach it.
And uh, other people can feelthe fear and do it anyway, but
(13:45):
they can't, so they don't, theydon't really, they haven't
learned that there is, there isan approach.
Right, right.
Yeah, yeah.
That works.
Exactly.
And it doesn't have to beToastmasters.
Because that scary for so manyof the people that I work with
who have tried it and they feellike they go and it's not, it's
not a safe place for them.
(14:07):
For some it is.
I'm not saying it's Sure.
Sure.
Yeah, and I mean, what you havetalked about I think is really
the next level.
I mean, I'm not totally familiarwith Toastmasters.
I have a cursory view of what itis, but it's more just about how
(14:31):
you present.
It's a presentation part, andyou are talking.
Aligning yourself with whom youreally are and taking yourself
and sharing that in a way thatexudes not only confidence, but
comfort from within.
(14:54):
You capture so much of the workthat I do and such great words,
uh, you're, you're just, uh,you're like a, a poet who, uh,
is able to reflect the truth.
Yes.
That is what the way you justexpressed it is it's about
learning more about what'sreally true for yourself and
(15:18):
finding, I would call itcourageous confidence.
To speak up.
Love that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
I love that.
And you mentioned the threedifferent levels.
I can't remember the second one.
The in inside, looking at yourinside, and then the third part
was about what comes back to youas you share.
(15:41):
Yes.
Yeah.
Your truth.
Yeah.
And.
That in itself, I'm sure is anincredible journey for the
people that you work with andhow they get to learn, grow, and
change by getting the feedbackof what people hear or what they
think they hear, right?
(16:03):
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
So the, uh.
A lot of times people are afraidto speak up and, and say what
they really feel or what theyreally want because they're
going to create something in theother person that they will then
have to deal with.
So that's what they're reallyavoiding.
(16:24):
They're avoiding the consequenceof expressing their truth.
Yeah.
And so, um.
There are ways to express truth,especially let's say anger.
Sure.
In a way that's much morerelational or compassionate or,
you know, being able to reallyown your own truth rather than
(16:47):
just a blasting at somebody.
So I think those are somecommunication techniques that I
think can help people whenthey're actually.
More'cause there's the innerwork and then of course there's
the outer work of how to expressit.
And then, uh, if it goes wrong,how to say, oh, I actually meant
(17:07):
to say this, this and that.
Yeah.
You know, like, yeah.
Yeah.
And or except that people havereactions and it's none of your
business how they react to you.
Right.
Exactly.
That's, that's theirs to ownwhat they come back with.
That's about you.
That's not about me.
And if there's learning for meto understand that I didn't send
(17:30):
my message across the way it wasin my body, my mind, my heart,
my soul, I'll rework it so you,I know that you really
understand what it is I wasactually trying to share.
Right?
Yeah.
Beautiful.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What is the secret to beingconfident to express yourself
without that fear standing inthe way?
(17:54):
Hmm.
Ooh, the secret.
Well, my book has seven secrets.
Well, there we go.
We're gonna get your book to getall seven.
Is there one in particularthat's really, I'm glad you said
that.
Yes.
'cause I, I probably don't wannago through all seven, but
that's, yes.
The, the process, the find yourvoice process that I, uh,
(18:18):
develop based on my ownexpertise as a psychologist and
my own lived experience, as yousaid.
Yes.
So, uh, the, see, the one that,oh, there's so many because
there's aspects of it, but Iwould say, uh, all of them, just
as a way of explaining what itis.
Every single one of my sevensecrets begins with Be b, e, be.
(18:42):
I'll just say the first one isbe still, the second one is be
present and then on and on andon till the, the seventh secret
is be yourself.
So we don't start with beingyourself.
You have, that's the journey.
So the stillness is the firstlearning how to still the.
(19:03):
Mind the chatter, learning howto calm your beating heart, how
to, uh, so that's the first isbeing still learning how to be
still in the midst of maybe yourheart is beating, but you can
still have a centered, grounded,uh, sense of stillness inside.
(19:25):
And so the second one, and Iwon't go further, but, and this
is to me what.
What's so powerful about that?
My process is presence.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Be present because so much ofthe fears in the past, whether
it was family, teachers, otherkids, teasing, absolutely.
(19:49):
Culture.
Thou shall not, you know, thatkind of thing.
Religion, all the reasons, theway that we've learned to hide
ourselves and our voice.
Is in the past.
Mm-hmm.
And then what we do is projectit into the future,
anticipating, uh oh, I betternot, or else, uh, or if
(20:13):
something happened in the past,it's gonna happen again.
So learning how to take thatbreath, soften the eyes, that's
another one of the lessons, butit's just.
So the sockets around your eyes,cheeks begin to relax, shoulders
drop, it's magic.
(20:33):
You could do that in anymeeting, right?
Yeah.
You don't have to go anywhere.
You can just be literally, likeyou just said, be still be
present, and Uhhuh.
Do all of that inside yourself.
Everything changes'cause youchange your energy.
We have so much power andcontrol Yes.
That we don't utilize.
(20:54):
But when?
When we don't know.
We can't do, and that's why Dr.
Doreen has so many incrediblegifts to share with you and in
our show notes, we absolutelywill have how to connect with
her and contact her and see allof the incredible things that
(21:14):
she has out in the world rightnow to help all of us find our
voice, right?
Yeah.
And be confident to express whatmatters most.
Yeah.
Oh, and that, and you said inthe show, uh, right at the
beginning of the show that it's,whether it's at home, some of
(21:35):
the work that I do in teachingpeople how to listen, it changes
their relationships.
Yeah, people came back to me andsaid, I said that that's exactly
what he's been wanting from me.
All this or that.
My wife is, you know, that kind,they, they report back the power
(21:56):
of what they learn about beingpresent and about really using
the eyes to stay with.
And, uh, listen with your eyes.
I just feel like I could teachso much right now, but, so
anyway.
Listen with your eyes isanother, is another teaching, I
think.
As opposed, yeah.
(22:17):
Where you, or listen from yourheart.
Hello.
That's a beautiful instruction,isn't it?
Listen.
Mm-hmm.
Listening.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Before we close, is thereanything that you would
absolutely love to leave ouraudience with today?
Any closing remarks?
(22:37):
Any closing comments that arecoming up for you that you wanna
make sure land on?
Two ears for each audiencemember.
Well, I would say the secondstep about facing and embracing
the way that we are withourselves in terms of, um, being
(23:00):
kind and gentle and patient andbeing our own, I guess you might
say something like medicine thatwe bring to ourselves.
The opportunity by the way thatwe say hello in there.
You are okay.
Uh, you could come out now.
I can make it safe for you.
(23:23):
And that's the, the hello inthere.
Feels like if people are stillwith us today, right now, and
just, but when we end, just goHello in there to yourself.
Love that.
I love that.
If this episode and ourconversation has stirred
(23:47):
something in you, if you felt anache of a voice that's still
locked inside or the pull tomaybe speak more clearly or more
boldly, more you, this is yoursign.
Come and explore the ME academy,and it's where we don't just
(24:07):
talk about growth, we live it.
It's where women over 45 rewritethe second half of their lives
with more power, presence, andpurpose than ever before.
You can find all of thisinformation.
In the show notes, you can findall of the incredible
information and Dr.
(24:29):
Doreen Downing's gifts, what acalming presence you have.
I want to thank you so much forbeing here so much.
Yes, well, it's truly, truly,truly a wonderful moment to
share with somebody else who hasdeep heart.
(24:51):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Until next time, speak it, feelit fully.
And don't forget, your nextchapter is not a reinvention.
It is a remembering.
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