March 18, 2025 • 42 mins
- Danial Cox & Kelsey Eyre Hammond, "Young Women Are Leaving Church in Unprecedented Numbers," https://www.americansurveycenter.org/newsletter/young-women-are-leaving-church-in-unprecedented-numbers/
- "The Gender Gap in Religion Around the World," https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/22/the-gender-gap-in-religion-around-the-world/#:~:text=In%2061%20of%20the%20192,identify%20with%20some%20religious%20group.
- Claire Cain Miller, "Many Gen Z Men Feel Left Behind. Some See Trump as an Answer," https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/24/upshot/trump-polls-young-men.html
- Ruth Graham, "In a First Among Christians, Young Men Are More Religious Than Young Women," https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/23/us/young-men-religion-gen-z.html
- Ryan Denison, "In Gen Z, Men Are More Likely than Women to Go to Church," https://www.denisonforum.org/daily-article/gen-z-men-more-likely-than-women-to-attend-church/
- Daniel Cox, "Generation Z and the Future of Faith in America," https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/generation-z-future-of-faith/
- Marc Ramirez, "Americans Are Becoming Less Religious. None More than this Group," https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/08/13/gen-z-women-less-religious/74673083007/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
It takes one ancestry, like DNA thing, finds out I'm sort of Irish.
(00:03):
And then boom, boom, red hair.
It's absolutely not because I got my feelings hurt and dyed my hair and then liked it.
Is that what happened? Yeah.
Who hurt your feelings?
No, when Alex and I broke up, I scheduled my hair appointment.
We got back together, but now it's still red.
Oh, man.
Because now I just like it.
OK.
(00:23):
Welcome to TikTok Theology, a podcast that tackles the major
trending topics on social media that concern the Christian faith.
I'm Meagan and I'm Steven.
We know you can't form a theology in three minutes or less,
but those videos can identify current issues.
TikTok will give us the prompt and then we'll do a deep dive.
Thanks for joining us in this exploration.
(00:47):
Hi, friends. Welcome back to TikTok Theology.
I've been cooking on this one for a while and Steven knows this because
I do when this article came out, I had thoughts, I had feelings about it.
And obviously, when you're hearing this, this is much later than when I thought
about it and was thinking about it.
But a little while ago, a couple of months ago, there was an article that came out
(01:09):
on the New York Times that I saw when people were reposting it quite a bit.
And it was about how Gen Z men are now considered more religious than Gen Z women.
People were posting that all over the place, that was like a whole thing.
And I read the article and obviously it makes a lot of sense as to why,
(01:30):
because statistically of every generation since they've been, you know,
taking these polls, so since the 1900s, women have statistically been more religious.
And so that's been like a very consistent thing.
And so when Gen Z said, OK, men are now more religious.
That's a big deal.
That was a big deal and obviously people were like, oh my gosh, what does this mean?
(01:54):
Yeah.
And I saw it handled and if you couldn't guess, that's the topic of this episode
is this is this article of our Gen Z men more actually more religious than Gen Z women.
It piqued my interest as a Gen Z woman.
Right. And not for any like negative reason, not for any manhating reason.
Promise, guys, don't worry.
(02:14):
But she wants to prove she's not godless.
I do.
It's actually I've been tired of this episode is to prove that I actually love Jesus.
But it made me want to like look into stuff.
Right. And that's kind of the whole
situation behind this podcast is we hear things on the internet,
whether from you guys from us and we want to dive a little deeper into it.
(02:36):
So after reading this article,
I'm excited to dive kind of further into it because obviously I'm a Gen Z woman.
And so Gen Z would absolutely care about the statistics of our generation and what
the what the folks are saying about percentages of being open to.
Full show. Full show.
Yeah. I mean, I have a very limited point of view.
(02:58):
You know, I'm a millennial dude and and I teach Gen Z and it's hard for me to just
like look in my classroom and see.
Yeah, to know that to like see like which one's more religious than the other.
Where the Christian institution everybody is supposed to be.
Theoretically, everyone's got it in here.
Yeah. So so it's a difficult thing for me to kind of see.
(03:20):
But I think one thing that I wanted to point out and then maybe show a positive
side of is recently and by the time this airs, it would have been a few months ago.
Yeah. And this is just kind of how 2025 even started.
There was a really great apologist that was added that was brought on to Joe Rogan
(03:43):
show. Yeah. His name is Wesley Huff.
And I'll talk a little bit about that and why that wasn't significant.
But then also right after that, he had Mel Gibson on.
Yeah. And there was a lot more in Mel Gibson's story.
Like he was talking about his studio that he wants to start and like, you know,
a sequel to The Passion of the Christ, which is actually sounds interesting.
I did actually hear about that.
Yeah. And so and but he spoke for a while on the show about his Catholic faith.
(04:07):
Yeah. And like not just a little bit too.
Like, I mean, he went in like theologically about what's going on.
He did not defend bad things of the of the church like a like pedophilia and stuff
like that. He did not defend it.
He was very critical about it.
But then also like very like, obviously, you know, this is his tradition that he
was proud of in other ways.
And so there was just a lot of like Christian positive press recently recently,
(04:32):
which is a nice spin on things, which is a nice spin on things.
You know, let me talk about this as a Wesley Huff thing, because that was crazy.
So so what happens is there's this popular YouTuber named Billy Carson.
And he he has this thing called Forbidden Knowledge Podcast Network.
He's a podcaster, YouTuber, everything.
He's got millions of followers and subscribers.
(04:53):
And he talks about he makes all these videos that are like interesting things
about history, about the past and stuff like that.
But they're like low key kind of conspiracy theory ish.
And they're interesting, but they're like not super duper factual.
It's like it's like borderline fanfiction type stuff.
(05:15):
Just like, you know, that kind of that kind of video.
And just by happenstance, there was this
podcast by Mark Minard that he invited his friend because Billy Carson is his friend
onto the show and I guess they live in the same neighborhood.
And then he invited Wes Huff and Wes Huff.
(05:36):
Like this just seemed so random to me.
Like Wes Huff is a legitimate
apologist and the kind of apologists that I really like because he's he's not
just like doing it on the philosophical grounds and I'm a philosopher.
So I love that.
But like he is a straight up Bible nerd.
Like he knows Bible nerd.
Oh man, like he's he's a real expert on on ancient Near East and and all the texts
(06:00):
and all came out like he's a legitimate expert.
And he has a really popular YouTube presence and he is way more popular now.
It does apologize. He's from Canada.
He's the Central Canada Director for apologetics.
But like I said, it's not just like on the philosophical.
Like it's really, really about the texts and all that kind of stuff.
So he and he's just like a legit languages, all that stuff.
Like he just understands all languages and all the nuances there.
(06:23):
Stuff that like if you go to an academic
conference, like this is who you're talking to all the time.
Like if you go to SPS, AAR or whatever, like the biblical scholars,
like this is what they do.
This is why they go to school.
This is why they have PhDs or working on PhDs.
And they talk about they get into the minutia of all this little stuff all the time.
And so it was cool seeing him there.
It's going to sound weird, but he's not special as in like he's this incredibly
(06:48):
great biblical scholar.
He is, I don't want to say he's not like he is, but he's not like better than other
ones. He's just like he's a very great communicator.
He's a really good YouTube presence and stuff like that can debate and all that.
So he's awesome at that.
But he's doing the same work that the field does.
That's the point.
Yeah. Like this is what all PhDs do.
Like this is what they do.
(07:09):
Right.
Anyway, it was it was really cool seeing him on there.
And so they brought him together and West Huff just like he wouldn't even mean
about it, but he obliterated Billy Carson.
Like it was nasty.
Yeah.
Like Billy Carson was just saying some claims about like various texts in the
ancient areas and like beyond Christian texts, like all this source of stuff.
And West just pressed them on it.
Like, you know, can you tell me what you think is the origins of this or like can
(07:33):
you summarize this and like and like he wouldn't even like summarizing the epic
of Gilgamesh, right?
Like he was like stuff that like you just know, like you did undergrad.
Just it was disgusting.
Like it was it was a nasty, nasty take down.
It wasn't even like he didn't even try to just he just it just was.
And so that piqued Joe Rogan.
Joe Rogan saw that video because then Billy Carson got like upset.
(07:54):
And then yet he like put lawyers out and went to cease and desist and like take
the videos down and stuff like that.
And I don't even know how all that played out, but it piqued the interest of Joe
Rogan and Joe Rogan and vitamin on.
So they had a he had West Huff on there for three hours.
Yeah.
And West told him like West is a missionary kid.
He talked about like a miraculous healing part of his testimony.
(08:16):
He was giving his testimony.
He was talking about Jesus.
He was talking about texts.
He was doing all sorts of stuff.
And then three hours, you know, he had a little like slip ups.
He switched up people.
He talked about the great Isaiah texts that he had to like he did like a five
minute like rebutting myself video.
I saw that.
And he wasn't he wasn't like it wasn't anything agreed as it was just like
kind of misspoken like because he's he's speaking off the dome for three
(08:39):
hours. Right. Yeah.
So all of us, once we yapp for three hours, we're going to start to
Yeah, of course.
Switch up a thing or two.
Yeah. Yeah.
And so anyway, so I thought that was just incredibly positive.
And because I know a lot of people, a lot of dudes that listen to Joe Rogan.
I never listened to a Joe Rogan episode before this one ever.
So like, but like Joe was great.
He's a gracious host and like he did a good job.
(09:00):
And like, but I know like my brother in law listens to Joe Rogan.
Like so many people I know listen to Joe Rogan, Christian and not Christian or
whatever.
For sure. And so that's just a massive platform where they just heard a frigging
dope, apologize. Yeah.
Just like say some stuff.
You know what I'm saying?
And who's interested in it?
Here is this kind of like this alpha male dude podcast guy.
(09:23):
Yeah. That was interested in it.
Right. So what does that say about our topic?
I think there is a positive side to this.
For sure. That whatever the motivations and there could be some political,
could be some, whatever, power oriented ones or whatever.
People are hearing about Jesus out of it.
And that's the fantastic thing.
Because we were talking earlier, like anybody going to get mad about
(09:45):
someone hearing about Jesus.
Oh, no. You know what I mean?
So no, I may not be Joe Rogan Stan, but I can love and I love that West half was on
there. Yeah, that was great.
So anyone having, you know, three hours of good conversation about things that are
kind of deep in the things of religion and Jesus and stuff.
So even with that kind of being said, it's like
(10:08):
you're not going to hear this episode being like, oh, Megan and Steven hate that
more men love Jesus now than they did before or more men are more religious.
And that sucks.
I think it just needs to be nuanced.
Like we need to understand.
Definitely nuanced.
So why don't you tell us that?
Why don't you, why is this pole in that thing true in the first place?
Yeah. And like, how can we contextualize it?
(10:29):
I think it's important that, you know, the news's job is to have
headlines that are interesting and make you want to click on stuff.
So to say, to have your headline that's like,
Gen Z men are more religious than Gen Z women.
That's going to make you want to click on it and be like, now what is going on in here?
So reading through it immediately, what I saw that was really interesting was a lot
(10:50):
of this conversation came up, obviously surveys and stuff are coming out about
all these different things, which is normal, like Pew Research and
Survey of the Center of American Life, like all that stuff.
That's all the time.
And those aren't religious organizations.
Like those are just research.
So those don't really have some of our barna group and stuff.
Yeah. But I will not be quoting Barna.
Sorry, guys. Sorry, Christians.
(11:13):
We will not be talking about Barna this time around.
But I thought what was really interesting was what they were highlighting.
The church that they were specifically highlighting in the New York Times article
was a Southern Baptist church.
And so when you think right off the bat,
OK, Southern Baptist Church, what are they?
They're against women in ministry.
Right. So right off the bat, right off the bat,
(11:33):
the church that is making people like have start to open dialogue about
their cop, seeing more men in church than before.
You see right off the bat, it's a church that doesn't value women in leadership.
So it kind of led me to like, OK, so what's the what's the conversation?
Like, what is the question that we need to be asking kind of when we're
(11:54):
looking at these kind of statistics and stuff?
So I kind of went a little bit deeper and saw it was trying to like analyze in general.
Like, what are the general statistics about how Americans period feel about
religion and period feel about Christianity?
Right. Statistically, Gen Z as a whole is less religious than any generation before them.
(12:16):
Even more than millennials.
Yeah.
Cons...
Which is shocking to a lot of people.
But statistically, we see that there is just like in general,
Gen Z are just not as religious in a lot of ways.
When you kind of frame it in that sense,
you see that maybe more men are more religious than Gen Z women.
(12:36):
But Gen Z as a whole is less religious than the friends who came before them.
So now we're like, oh, why?
But does it mean that as Gen Z is getting more religious,
more women were dropping off or women were dropping off at a faster rate than men?
Is that what you're saying?
So when you're looking at...
I was, you know, digging into all of this, right?
And I have some links and stuff that we'll put in the show notes that you can look
(12:59):
and read for yourself as well, because have fun with all that.
Statistics and stuff, if that's your ministry.
But statistically in other generations, right?
You would have...
This is right around the time because Gen Z is at the age where most generations
start to drop off in their religious experience.
They come back when they have kids.
And they come back when they're married.
They come back when they have kids.
That's very, very normal.
(13:19):
That was something that we've seen a lot, especially in Gen X and millennials.
That happened super, that's super, super common.
So Gen Z right now in general is actually at the age where the drop off kind of begins.
Yeah. Millennials are the ones who are coming back.
Millennials are starting to come back around.
Right. So they're hitting the age where it's like, oh,
they are getting married and they are having kids.
Right.
Okay, cool.
So they're coming back around.
(13:40):
The statistic difference is that they're saying that men are staying longer,
that these young men are staying in church longer than previous generations.
So they would say like millennials and Gen X,
the men will have already dropped off at this point in their adult,
in their young adulthood.
Okay.
Gen Z men are sticking around.
Okay.
But Gen Z women are still dropping off to the same percentage that they have in
previous years.
(14:01):
Ah, okay.
So that's kind of what the situation that we're looking at as of this exact moment.
So that's more positive than negative then.
So that is more positive than negative because the end,
like Gen Z aren't necessarily to the age group yet where everyone's married and
having kids.
Right.
So we haven't had the turnaround of that's pretty much statistically common of
get married, have kids come back.
(14:23):
So Gen Z are in the young adult era where they're still kind of falling off.
And then I think probably in the next 10 years,
we'll see the statistics change when they start to study alpha and then Gen Z hit
the age where they start to get married and have kids and then come back to the
church, stuff like that.
So that's kind of to give like a general sense of things is,
hey, this isn't actually as dreary and stressful.
(14:44):
Hopefully as it first feels when you're reading articles on the New York
times, when you dig a little bit deeper, you're like, okay.
So actually Gen Z is kind of right on track with what every other generation has
experienced when young adults start to drop off.
Guys just stayed a little longer.
Guys are just staying statistically a little bit longer.
What I wonder too, is Gen Z getting married less or, and this is something I was
(15:06):
thinking about, are they just getting married later?
Because we keep seeing like this prolonged adolescence, right?
Yes.
Like it keeps happening more and more every generation.
Yes.
So maybe the itch will happen for Gen Z to get married.
It's just going to happen when they're 30 now instead of 25 or 27 or something.
You know what I'm saying?
So that's totally true.
My mom, I remember when she did her capstone for her like master's project at
(15:28):
LPU where she was talking about how emerging adults, which is like what young
adults would be considered like 18 to 23 are taking longer to be established in
their adult milestones.
So like the generations before would be married by like 22, 23, right?
They'd be in a career.
I think millennials were average closer to 25 or 26.
23, 25, right.
But all the, all generations before us were younger.
(15:50):
Yeah.
And so now we're looking at Gen Z and they're saying stuff like, oh, the
statistical age of getting married is actually closer to their 30s.
Right.
And so it's taking a little bit longer to quote, hit milestones like marriage,
kids, whatever.
So it's taking longer in general.
So that, and that kind of started with millennials.
So Gen Z are actually just now hitting the age, right?
(16:11):
Where they would start to think about marriage.
Think about kids, think about, you know, having a career focused job,
stuff like that, right?
So all of that considered, it's not that shocking to me that these are the
statistics, right?
Oh, okay.
Like that makes sense that this is kind of what we're looking at right now.
But when you also consider, there are also things that I think we have to
(16:35):
look at that are a little sobering as well about reasons why women may have
dropped off from church.
And this is the kind of stuff that is hard, I think to talk about, but I do
think is worth unpacking and maybe getting a little uncomfortable because it
will help frame these kinds of articles that we read in a way that is like,
(16:56):
yes, we can celebrate that young men are sticking around, but I also think that
it's worth assessing why women aren't, you know?
And so what it leads us to ask the questions like, why is this true?
Like why are women still dropping off? Why is this the case?
So in a poll conducted by the Survey Center on American Life, nearly two
thirds or 65% of young women say that they do not believe that church treats
(17:20):
men and women equally.
I think that's really devastating, honestly, as a Gen Z woman who's
been in churches and stuff her whole life, right?
I, it's so, it's, it grieves me that that's like an ex, that's experience
that especially women have had in church.
And obviously we've had so many conversations even on the podcast of
(17:40):
people who've shared their feelings of church hurt and stuff on social media.
We have episodes about those things.
And the things that have been experienced in churches, especially in this
case by women, oh, it's awful. It's so hard.
And we see like public stuff, like when everything happened with Hillsong or
things that come out in churches of abuse and misogyny and all these things,
(18:02):
like that is so, that grieves me.
It grieves the heart of God for sure.
And it does, I think, have an influence on women choosing to stay in the church.
So we have, I mean, I've seen churches with misogyny.
We've got purity culture that plays a role with, we know that I've, we have
an episode about this as well as I've done research into what modesty has
(18:26):
and culture and shame culture has done for women, right?
Where I've looked into what purity culture and shame culture has done for
women, shame culture has been built predominantly around women for being
considered stumbling blocks to male purity or being viewed as something,
some woman to just become a wife and a mom.
And that's kind of their whole role is to serve and submit to the men in the
(18:50):
church and they've, that's their part.
Yeah.
So we've got that.
We've got a growing lack of desire for marriage and children in women and
Gen Z, which is a fairly new thing, honestly, in the generations that this is
the generation that has the most high percentage of women who no longer wish
(19:11):
to engage in either marriage or children, right?
In a different study, they said that women are, Gen Z women are less likely to
say they want to become parents by a margin of 12%.
Yeah.
So we are actually seeing a rise in women who no longer wish to be parents,
to be moms.
Do you think that's a delay or just say straight up, like that's, you know,
I'm saying like, oh, that's, that's what I wonder.
(19:33):
You know, I think it's both.
I know that there are some women who they're like, I would rather do this
when I'm established, when I'm like, have worked a job, like all these things.
So I know that there's some women who want to do a later thing.
Cause I'll, I'll give you an example.
Like my wife, Connie, when we got married, she was 21 and I'm four years
older than her.
(19:53):
And so I was 25 when we were just talking about like starting a family and stuff.
And I was working on my PhD and we decided that we didn't want to have kids
or anything until I was done with my PhD.
Right.
But she was also like, Hey, I want to enjoy my twenties.
You know what I'm saying?
Like we could, we could live in New York.
We could do this.
We could live in the city and.
Like let's go.
Yeah.
And I was like, I was like, yeah.
And then like it was fast after a baby fever hit her heart.
(20:17):
She said, oh.
It was like, it was like, all right, game over.
And she doesn't want to have any more kids.
Yeah.
Like, like after one we're like, all right, feel good.
But like, she definitely had the best.
She had the vibe where she wanted to have a child like kind of like hit her fast.
Yeah.
And so I wonder if that's not saying like, oh, that's going to happen for everybody.
Right.
Because that's not the case.
(20:37):
But I wonder if because things are delayed, does that thing also get delayed?
Like, will that come back?
Maybe when women are a little older, you know what I'm saying?
Or not, you know what I'm saying?
That's what I'm curious about.
Oh, for sure.
I'm sure there's so much that even in the next 10 years of research, we'll find out
about Gen Z.
And then stuff that we'll learn about Gen Alpha, who have been influenced by
(20:58):
parents who are millennials and stuff like that.
So I think that there's so much more to learn about this.
But when you're looking at the situation now, even as like, as a Gen Z woman,
I don't want to have kids.
Right.
I know a lot of women who I talk to who are my friends who do not want to have kids.
And that there's a lot of attribution of that to just straight up the things
that are like, the economy is bad.
(21:19):
And there's situations where they're like, I just like, that doesn't make sense.
Like, I don't, I know there's a lot of people Christian and not Christian who are
like, I don't want to bring a kid into this environment that is the current
state of the world.
Right.
And so there that's, that has drastically changed, especially when you're
traditionally look at, traditionally look at church, there is a very high
priority on marriage and children in the church has been for has been forever.
(21:43):
Oh, for surely.
And so when you now have a large, a larger percentage of women who are
saying, I don't really want to be a mother anymore.
Yeah, it makes sense.
And that's changing then.
And they're coming into a church that's talking to their purpose.
Yeah.
The talking one, if they're in a church that pretty much just prioritizes
families or they don't, are they're one of those people who like, doesn't like
to hire people who aren't married or doesn't like to hire people who don't
(22:05):
have kids, like stuff like that.
And they're hearing them preach that, that, that their best purpose is to be
a wife and a mom.
And then God give in purpose, then why would they stay?
Right.
When they're being preached at like, oh, the only thing I'm good for, the best
thing that I can possibly be is something I don't actually want to become.
(22:25):
So that's a, you know, the, the family unit, the nuclear family unit.
That's, that is somewhat of a cultural thing.
Obviously, families have been around forever.
Oh, for sure.
People get married forever.
And that is the general norm for people.
Nothing wrong with that either.
Nothing.
But like, I think some people will say is like, you got to also have a
theology of singleness that like a lot of Protestants don't Catholics do,
(22:47):
but Protestants don't know, we're actually quite poor at it.
Yeah.
And Jesus was single.
Right.
I mean, like that's Paul was single.
Yeah.
And so like there's, there's a calling maybe to singleness too, that like, I
think folks, some folks don't understand.
It might not be the case.
Maybe you're not called to singleness.
You just haven't found your person yet.
Yes.
Or, or you could be called to that.
Yeah.
So that's a more nuanced approach from churches to deal with all people.
(23:10):
Yeah.
And the scriptural things, I think definitely.
For sure.
And when you're looking at Gen Z women, statistically, they are more educated
than Gen Z men.
Um, statistically, they earn a higher income in prominent cities than any
female generation before them.
Um, and then they continue to report that they feel like they're treated
unequally in church.
So you've got these statistics of women who make a higher income than women
(23:31):
before them.
So they have this more, this focus on career.
They have a less of a desire to be a parent, a less of a desire to be married.
They have more education than the current men that they are surrounded with.
And they feel like they're being treated unequally in church, despite the
fact that they're more educated than they make money.
And they're in a stable place.
Then you're like, huh, maybe church isn't for me.
(23:54):
Right.
You know, I wonder too, we can't ignore some political congruence too.
This last election, it was more divided by gender lines than ever before.
A lot more men voted Republican than women and vice versa too.
And there was, I saw so many things about everybody talking about this all the time.
(24:16):
I remember Democrats talking about, we're losing men, we're losing male votes.
And like the inspiring, strong male figure that can inspire hope like Obama,
like wasn't present.
A lot of black and brown young men, Gen Z, voted Republican.
And Republican Party, and we've talked about this a lot, neither party is actually
(24:39):
a Christian party.
But the Republican Party is very forward and open about Christian ideology.
So I wonder if that starts becoming a cultural thing too.
Like it's culturally accepted to be Christian and Republican and a male.
Like those things all together.
Yeah.
Especially with this election, statistically that there has been a lot of lean towards
(25:03):
the separation where men are going to be more predominantly voting for Republicans
and then women are going to more predominantly vote to Democrat.
And then that statistically women are leaning more left than they have in previous
as they would politically define it.
Not like, let's not get crazy and obnoxious about that.
But just the generalities, right?
Where they're leaning more towards that.
(25:24):
And even as I was researching a lot of this, we've heard a lot recently about
this like male loneliness epidemic.
And this like, oh, men are lonelier now than ever before.
And a lot statistically of people are finding that these quote unquote lonely men
(25:45):
are finding their communities in church because church is valuing these things
that they find really important politically when they lean more conservative.
So they're like, oh, perfect.
I find my men who are very comfortable, you know.
Yeah.
And I mean, Hollywood and stuff in media had pretty strong voices against
(26:07):
like incels that would call them and stuff.
And but like they'll caught that.
But those were also things that were of general interest to young men generally.
And so guys like Jordan Peterson, if you listen to him, there might be some stuff
that you don't like or whatever, but there's a lot that he says that's just like
actually just generally helpful for men.
(26:28):
Yeah.
You know, because he's a psychologist and stuff like that.
So he'll talk about like having a sense of self respect when you go into,
you know what I'm saying?
Like showering and drinking.
Like showering and dressing nice and stuff.
Yeah.
Like hygiene is cool.
Yeah.
He'll talk like he'll literally talk about that kind of stuff.
He talks about his faith pretty openly too.
And so these people who would have been cast as incels, they feel that as a reaction is like
(26:52):
they're wanting general social guidance, general acceptance communally.
And the media and like Hollywood and stuff like that has rejected them.
Yeah.
So where are they finding this?
Yeah.
Some of it is in the church and then, but the church is supposed to be welcoming to all people.
Yeah.
And it is to a lot of people.
It is to a degree.
Yeah.
Obviously some churches struggle with those kind of things more than others, but yeah.
(27:15):
Yeah.
So I mean like it's, it's hard to call it positive or negative.
What I don't like is the politicization of it all.
Correct.
But I do like the idea that men are seeking Christ and community.
Yeah.
I think that's a good thing.
For sure.
But I do think that especially when you're looking at all those that like
all of these studies are based on men who say they go to church.
(27:38):
Right.
And say that they profess faith.
As we know, that does not mean that you're a good Christian guy.
Right.
Right.
Unfortunately, I know so many women who are fabulous, who I love, who are incredible women
of God, who have been, who have experienced interesting men.
(27:59):
Yeah.
Who go to church, who do all these things, right?
So also looking at this doesn't necessarily mean that just because you go to church,
yeah.
You're a good Christian guy.
And then you have to look and say that just because women are saying that they're not going
to church, doesn't mean that they don't love Jesus anymore.
Right.
Right.
But there is some nuance here when you're looking at all of these statistics and things.
(28:22):
So, but it makes sense that men are trying to find these communities in church because those are
more predominantly geared towards the male audience in a lot of ways.
Yeah.
Especially when you're seeing these differences in statistics of who Gen Z women are in a way
that they really haven't been before in a lot of ways.
And so when men are still in many, many men are seeking like the tradwife trend and stuff
(28:44):
as we've talked about before, where they're like, I just want a traditional wife.
Who does this, this and this?
And a lot of Gen Z women are not that anymore.
Right.
They're looking to have careers and they maybe don't want to have kids.
And so this, even the statistics of what who women are and then what men want are starting
to change.
Yeah.
And so when women feel like they're not finding someone who would be a suitable partner in church,
(29:08):
they're also more likely to leave as opposed to men who are finding their communities.
Women feel like they're not in church, which is something that is definitely a concern.
But up until this point, women have actually been the majority church attenders yet have
been largely unacknowledged.
Unfortunately, once it becomes the statistic that men who are supposed to, for a lot of
people are leaders of the church and leaders of the home, once they rise above women, it's
(29:31):
now news.
Despite the fact that those quote unquote leaders have been statistically less religious
up into this point.
Right.
But should the trend continue, it actually could have major repercussions for faith
communities since women are often the backbone of church congregations, feeling volunteer
efforts and are instrumental in engaging their families in faith.
Women do the majority of the work that keep the church going, said former evangelical
(29:55):
Sheila Ray Gregor, who studied Christian marriage in the U.S. and Canada for 17 years.
They're the ones responsible for getting children out of bed and going to church.
They're the ones staffing the Sunday school, making sure potlucks happen or that people
are supported when they have an illness or having a baby.
The church is not going to survive without women.
Right.
No, that's for sure.
Which is an interesting point.
I actually do at all my all my years attending church, I always thought it was really ironic
(30:17):
that on Mother's Day, families were at church on Father's Day, they weren't.
Like on Mother's Day, everyone was at church.
It was so busy.
It was popping.
But when it was Father's Day, everyone was out of town.
People were sleeping in.
People watched football games.
I don't know if I noticed that.
I don't know if it was the church that I went to.
Oh, I very much did indeed.
So it's like when you're looking at, it is statistically true that women are the ones
(30:41):
who are getting kids up and who are going to church.
Yeah.
So it does cause this, these statistics have caused concern among different faith communities,
especially with Todd Bollsinger, who wrote a book, wrote really great books.
One of them that I read once was Canoing the Mountains.
So he's great author.
He's an associate professor of leadership and formation at Fuller Seminary in Pasadena.
(31:02):
And he has said that cultural shifts mean that church leaders can no longer rely on
old ways of thinking.
He says for generations, people would say young adults will leave,
but when they get married and get their babies baptized, they'll come back.
He said, no longer, you have to have something to offer people.
If we're losing the people, the women who have historically been the most loyal
in their church, that's a four alarm fire.
The traditionalism is definitely not the same way in what you're talking about.
(31:27):
But I think we're going to, I don't know if we're going to see a swing of either way.
I wonder if the trend is going to be more like doing this together as a team,
as opposed to now men are doing it, as opposed to women.
Like, I don't, you know what I'm saying?
Like, I think it's more going to be team oriented.
And that's kind of how it is in my household.
I obviously has a tiny sample size one, but like, but I do think, you know what I'm saying?
(31:51):
Like in the past, it was like, the woman was the housekeeper, so she's doing all that stuff.
And so if that's less than that, then I think the couples that are going to church,
just kind of like more team effort-ish, you know?
Oh, I think that all of these things should then like pendulum swing, right?
Right.
But then settling in the middle should be this idea of partnership and teamwork.
Yeah.
Like church works because men and women attend and they bring their gifts and they make church happen.
(32:15):
Yeah.
Like it works because that's how we were meant to be from the garden.
Right.
Men and women in partnership, pursuing relationship with God.
Like that's why it, that's what we're supposed to do.
Like that's what, that's the design, that's the point, that's how we should be operating.
Like this is not by any means to say, okay, now we should switch and men should take over.
(32:37):
Exactly.
And this is not to say that, oh, now we need to cater church only to women so that they come back.
Right.
Like this needs to be a, like Todd Bolsinger said, a four alarm, four alarm fire because
this needs to be, how do we come back to what we were always meant to be, which is a partnership
between men and women to expand the kingdom of God.
Yeah.
I think what's important is like what these studies can do is, and we need to do this,
(33:00):
essentially every generation, is what are the needs of this generation, this particular generation.
Correct.
And so, and that's different every single time.
And so here's a shift.
Okay.
Men are seeking community and loneliness.
So the church needs to offer that.
And then women are not feeling valued in the church.
(33:21):
So how do we rectify that?
So the church needs to offer that.
Correct.
And so like, so like, basically just looking at like, how can the church, you know,
fill the needs, the spiritual and emotional needs of people.
Yeah.
In a way that makes sense and is healthy and good.
Right.
And it's like, still like what's never ever changed is the gospel.
Correct.
What's never ever changed is the Christian witness.
(33:41):
Yeah.
None of these things are ever changed, but also knowing the sociological needs of people
in your particular area is important because you got to meet needs, you know, mind, body, and soul.
Like, I think these studies are helpful.
And I think it's men being more religious than women is not a thing to celebrate,
but also not a thing to be scared of or angry at.
(34:01):
No.
It's neither of those.
Which why research is our friend?
Like research is friend, not foe.
Like it just tells us how things are going.
Like even there was another study that said the Gallup has found that trust and confidence
in organized religion has plummeted over the past two decades.
In 2021, only 37% of the American public reported having a great deal or quite a lot of confidence
in religious institution, a massive decline since 2001 when 60% reported feeling confident.
(34:25):
Not just Gen Z have been struggling this.
Americans have been dissatisfied with organized religion for the,
with 63% of Americans who are Christian according to the Pew Research Center,
which said it was down from 90% in the early 1990s.
So this isn't even just a Gen Z issue.
Right.
Like dissatisfaction with religion and with church has been going down statistically since the 90s.
(34:46):
Like this is not a men and women issue.
This is an even just a Gen Z issue.
Like this has been statistically a problem for 30 years.
And also like, but if, if a political regime brings it back, that's not going to help the situation.
No, it's not.
Because that's just going to make the people who distrust the church,
(35:09):
now it's like even more politicized and organized, like they're going to distrust it even more.
And so it might embolden some, distrust others.
The church just needs to be the right witness.
They just need to be kingdom of God oriented and not all this other stuff.
Meet people where they're at.
Yeah.
And also like, I think it's good as we talk about all the time is to,
and especially in this season is to zoom out.
(35:31):
This is American that we are talking about all of these statistics,
all of these percentage points, right?
They're all very, very American.
Because that's where all of the focus on this study is, right?
So if we zoom out a little bit and hit the global scale of things, right?
Pew Research did a global research set on men and women and the gender gap in religion, right?
(35:52):
And so they did it in religion as a whole.
So you can find the statistics on like,
Muslim, Buddhism, like you'll find stuff in there as well.
So, but when you're looking at just Christianity in the sense that in 61 of the 192 countries,
which 61 of the countries they researched, they tallied for this,
women are at least two percentage points more likely than men to have an affiliation in religion.
(36:16):
In the remaining countries, women and men display roughly equal levels of religious
affiliation because in many cases, nearly all people of both gender genders identify with
some religious group. There are no countries in which men are more religiously affiliated
than women by two percentage points or more. So if you're hanging out on this statistic,
men and women are pretty much equal most of the time.
(36:38):
Like this is like men and women are pretty much equal in their views of religion globally.
And I mean, there's a statistic that like the most average Christian is a brown woman,
which we talked about before.
Yes, we have.
Like what you're saying globally, that's a different story.
So this is definitely a Western American kind of topic that we're talking about right now.
Which is why all of this is so important that when you like see a headline,
(37:00):
and you don't just like start spouting said headline back at people like,
oh, Gen Z men are more religious.
Yeah, but like let's look at this something deeper to this, right?
Like what is it globally? Why are men staying? What's working?
Why are women leaving? What's not?
Like how do we assess these things that we're seeing that research is telling us and be able
(37:23):
to meet the needs? It's really exciting that men are choosing to stay in church.
There is never going to be a world in which we don't celebrate that more people are sticking
around in church, that more people are finding a belonging in Jesus Christ.
That's the goal. That's the goal of all of this is if we're doing our job,
people should be sticking around in church. That means that we're giving a good witness.
(37:45):
We're giving them something to stick around for that they're experiencing community and
they're experiencing relationship with God. Like that's the goal.
So you're not going to hear it from us like, oh, perfect.
We actually don't want more men in church. That's actually bad.
No, I love that men are sticking around in church. That's a win. That's great. That's a good thing.
(38:05):
It is.
But I'd also on the other hand, why are we losing women?
Right. Like what ways are we falling short in reaching the women in this generation?
What ways do we need to make sure that we are reaching the people of this generation?
So that men continue to stick around and that women don't leave.
Because honestly, I think statistically in all the generations, we shouldn't be losing young
(38:28):
adults. I think that we should do something to figure out how to not miss that gap when they
become young adults and then hope that they come back around when they are parents.
That's true.
Like we need to figure out how to reach them so that they don't go through the process of walking
away ever.
Deconstruction.
Yeah. Like how do we make sure that we're meeting people where they are now as teens and as young
adults so that they don't have to do the, oh, I leave the church. I'm going to go experience the
(38:52):
big bag world on my own and then come back around when I want something that feels safe to raise my
kids. Like how are we as Christians, as pastors, as ministers, as churchgoers? Like how are we
responsible? What can we do?
Because that trend right there, that just screams that Christianity is cultural. It's
cultural Christianity. It's not like to have that legitimate on fire faith for Jesus Christ.
(39:19):
You wouldn't just leave and come back based on convenience and based on another goal of
raising your kids in a certain way.
Right. Or we want stability or something consistent. We want to raise our kids morally
or something like that.
Yeah. That's not the motivation to loving Jesus.
Right.
That shouldn't be the motivation to loving Jesus. Your motivation to love in Jesus
is your conviction that Jesus is Lord.
(39:40):
Right.
Right. And so like that. So I think the church needs to kind of repress this conviction on it.
And we see this with young people. We see this to certain movements, worship movements, the
circuit riders are super on fire. Like there's like, there's some really good things happening.
But yeah, I think, I think for some reason the church got comfortable with the trend.
Yeah.
That 30-somethings will come back.
(40:02):
They'll come back.
But we should never have been comfortable with that.
Yeah.
We should be uncomfortable with the idea that kids out of high school leave.
And when they enter college and stuff like that. So why?
You know, like what's going on with our youth ministries?
What's going on with our, how churches are bringing up young people and stuff like that?
Oh, exactly. So it like begs the question, right?
(40:24):
As we like to kind of assess at the end of every episode, like how do we resolve this?
Like what is maybe a pastoral or a ministerial application that we can do
to maybe take the step and look at the uncomfortable truth of why statistically
women are leaving? And if so many Gen Z women are saying they feel unequally treated in church,
(40:48):
how do we rectify that? Or if we're saying, okay, we're providing men a place,
that's awesome. How do we keep doing that?
Well, also making sure that women have a place as well.
Yeah.
Like what are ways that we can make that happen?
Yeah. The church needs to meet the needs of people.
And you know, when we preach, create programs and you know, do the social work in the communities
(41:11):
and stuff like that, we just need to think about it in that holistic way.
How is this engaging both the men and the women? How is it engaging young people?
How is it engaging everybody? And being cognizant of that,
I think is how the church needs to respond. What do you think?
Yeah, I would agree. I think that we need to make sure that we're not just showing up and
every church is focusing only on people who need to be married or that we're communicating that
(41:33):
you all have to be parents or that you all need to be, you know, this and the other thing or
being that you all have to be this political affiliation, right? Like we've all just become
very comfortable doing the same thing. And I think that when you get too comfortable,
you, it's really hard to hold up a mirror. Like we need to be holding up a mirror to
ourselves as Christians and to us as the church and make sure that we're like, okay.
(41:53):
Yeah. Obviously that we're not changing the truth of who Jesus is.
No. That we're not changing the message of the gospel,
but how are we making sure that we are reaching the people that are right in front of us?
Pastors need to know their flock and they need to know those who we're trying to bring into the
flock in the community. And so what's going on, you know, what's going on in the world?
How do we meet those needs? How do we talk to those people? Yeah, that's good. All right. Well,
(42:17):
well, I think that's a kind of a sobering topic, kind of sad, but also like a challenge,
but not that sad also makes you think it's worth a thinker.
Something to think about, you know what I mean? And I know churches,
denominations, stuff have conferences that deal with this stuff all the time. Try to try to
figure this out. Yeah. It's important for us to think about it. But like, yeah, I mean, you guys,
(42:37):
if you have ideas, thoughts, comments, just throw that in there, throw it in there,
in your comments on the podcast, on YouTube or whatever. Here's, I think, a great topic.
Thanks for leading us in that, Megan. And honor as always. Yes. As always, you know,
this podcast was brought to you by the School of Theology and Ministry at Life Pacific University.
We'll see you next time. See ya.
It takes one ancestry, like DNA thing, finds out I'm sort of Irish.
(00:03):
And then boom, boom, red hair.
It's absolutely not because I got my feelings hurt and dyed my hair and then liked it.
Is that what happened? Yeah.
Who hurt your feelings?
No, when Alex and I broke up, I scheduled my hair appointment.
We got back together, but now it's still red.
Oh, man.
Because now I just like it.
OK.
(00:23):
Welcome to TikTok Theology, a podcast that tackles the major
trending topics on social media that concern the Christian faith.
I'm Meagan and I'm Steven.
We know you can't form a theology in three minutes or less,
but those videos can identify current issues.
TikTok will give us the prompt and then we'll do a deep dive.
Thanks for joining us in this exploration.
(00:47):
Hi, friends. Welcome back to TikTok Theology.
I've been cooking on this one for a while and Steven knows this because
I do when this article came out, I had thoughts, I had feelings about it.
And obviously, when you're hearing this, this is much later than when I thought
about it and was thinking about it.
But a little while ago, a couple of months ago, there was an article that came out
(01:09):
on the New York Times that I saw when people were reposting it quite a bit.
And it was about how Gen Z men are now considered more religious than Gen Z women.
People were posting that all over the place, that was like a whole thing.
And I read the article and obviously it makes a lot of sense as to why,
(01:30):
because statistically of every generation since they've been, you know,
taking these polls, so since the 1900s, women have statistically been more religious.
And so that's been like a very consistent thing.
And so when Gen Z said, OK, men are now more religious.
That's a big deal.
That was a big deal and obviously people were like, oh my gosh, what does this mean?
(01:54):
Yeah.
And I saw it handled and if you couldn't guess, that's the topic of this episode
is this is this article of our Gen Z men more actually more religious than Gen Z women.
It piqued my interest as a Gen Z woman.
Right. And not for any like negative reason, not for any manhating reason.
Promise, guys, don't worry.
(02:14):
But she wants to prove she's not godless.
I do.
It's actually I've been tired of this episode is to prove that I actually love Jesus.
But it made me want to like look into stuff.
Right. And that's kind of the whole
situation behind this podcast is we hear things on the internet,
whether from you guys from us and we want to dive a little deeper into it.
(02:36):
So after reading this article,
I'm excited to dive kind of further into it because obviously I'm a Gen Z woman.
And so Gen Z would absolutely care about the statistics of our generation and what
the what the folks are saying about percentages of being open to.
Full show. Full show.
Yeah. I mean, I have a very limited point of view.
(02:58):
You know, I'm a millennial dude and and I teach Gen Z and it's hard for me to just
like look in my classroom and see.
Yeah, to know that to like see like which one's more religious than the other.
Where the Christian institution everybody is supposed to be.
Theoretically, everyone's got it in here.
Yeah. So so it's a difficult thing for me to kind of see.
(03:20):
But I think one thing that I wanted to point out and then maybe show a positive
side of is recently and by the time this airs, it would have been a few months ago.
Yeah. And this is just kind of how 2025 even started.
There was a really great apologist that was added that was brought on to Joe Rogan
(03:43):
show. Yeah. His name is Wesley Huff.
And I'll talk a little bit about that and why that wasn't significant.
But then also right after that, he had Mel Gibson on.
Yeah. And there was a lot more in Mel Gibson's story.
Like he was talking about his studio that he wants to start and like, you know,
a sequel to The Passion of the Christ, which is actually sounds interesting.
I did actually hear about that.
Yeah. And so and but he spoke for a while on the show about his Catholic faith.
(04:07):
Yeah. And like not just a little bit too.
Like, I mean, he went in like theologically about what's going on.
He did not defend bad things of the of the church like a like pedophilia and stuff
like that. He did not defend it.
He was very critical about it.
But then also like very like, obviously, you know, this is his tradition that he
was proud of in other ways.
And so there was just a lot of like Christian positive press recently recently,
(04:32):
which is a nice spin on things, which is a nice spin on things.
You know, let me talk about this as a Wesley Huff thing, because that was crazy.
So so what happens is there's this popular YouTuber named Billy Carson.
And he he has this thing called Forbidden Knowledge Podcast Network.
He's a podcaster, YouTuber, everything.
He's got millions of followers and subscribers.
(04:53):
And he talks about he makes all these videos that are like interesting things
about history, about the past and stuff like that.
But they're like low key kind of conspiracy theory ish.
And they're interesting, but they're like not super duper factual.
It's like it's like borderline fanfiction type stuff.
(05:15):
Just like, you know, that kind of that kind of video.
And just by happenstance, there was this
podcast by Mark Minard that he invited his friend because Billy Carson is his friend
onto the show and I guess they live in the same neighborhood.
And then he invited Wes Huff and Wes Huff.
(05:36):
Like this just seemed so random to me.
Like Wes Huff is a legitimate
apologist and the kind of apologists that I really like because he's he's not
just like doing it on the philosophical grounds and I'm a philosopher.
So I love that.
But like he is a straight up Bible nerd.
Like he knows Bible nerd.
Oh man, like he's he's a real expert on on ancient Near East and and all the texts
(06:00):
and all came out like he's a legitimate expert.
And he has a really popular YouTube presence and he is way more popular now.
It does apologize. He's from Canada.
He's the Central Canada Director for apologetics.
But like I said, it's not just like on the philosophical.
Like it's really, really about the texts and all that kind of stuff.
So he and he's just like a legit languages, all that stuff.
Like he just understands all languages and all the nuances there.
(06:23):
Stuff that like if you go to an academic
conference, like this is who you're talking to all the time.
Like if you go to SPS, AAR or whatever, like the biblical scholars,
like this is what they do.
This is why they go to school.
This is why they have PhDs or working on PhDs.
And they talk about they get into the minutia of all this little stuff all the time.
And so it was cool seeing him there.
It's going to sound weird, but he's not special as in like he's this incredibly
(06:48):
great biblical scholar.
He is, I don't want to say he's not like he is, but he's not like better than other
ones. He's just like he's a very great communicator.
He's a really good YouTube presence and stuff like that can debate and all that.
So he's awesome at that.
But he's doing the same work that the field does.
That's the point.
Yeah. Like this is what all PhDs do.
Like this is what they do.
(07:09):
Right.
Anyway, it was it was really cool seeing him on there.
And so they brought him together and West Huff just like he wouldn't even mean
about it, but he obliterated Billy Carson.
Like it was nasty.
Yeah.
Like Billy Carson was just saying some claims about like various texts in the
ancient areas and like beyond Christian texts, like all this source of stuff.
And West just pressed them on it.
Like, you know, can you tell me what you think is the origins of this or like can
(07:33):
you summarize this and like and like he wouldn't even like summarizing the epic
of Gilgamesh, right?
Like he was like stuff that like you just know, like you did undergrad.
Just it was disgusting.
Like it was it was a nasty, nasty take down.
It wasn't even like he didn't even try to just he just it just was.
And so that piqued Joe Rogan.
Joe Rogan saw that video because then Billy Carson got like upset.
(07:54):
And then yet he like put lawyers out and went to cease and desist and like take
the videos down and stuff like that.
And I don't even know how all that played out, but it piqued the interest of Joe
Rogan and Joe Rogan and vitamin on.
So they had a he had West Huff on there for three hours.
Yeah.
And West told him like West is a missionary kid.
He talked about like a miraculous healing part of his testimony.
(08:16):
He was giving his testimony.
He was talking about Jesus.
He was talking about texts.
He was doing all sorts of stuff.
And then three hours, you know, he had a little like slip ups.
He switched up people.
He talked about the great Isaiah texts that he had to like he did like a five
minute like rebutting myself video.
I saw that.
And he wasn't he wasn't like it wasn't anything agreed as it was just like
kind of misspoken like because he's he's speaking off the dome for three
(08:39):
hours. Right. Yeah.
So all of us, once we yapp for three hours, we're going to start to
Yeah, of course.
Switch up a thing or two.
Yeah. Yeah.
And so anyway, so I thought that was just incredibly positive.
And because I know a lot of people, a lot of dudes that listen to Joe Rogan.
I never listened to a Joe Rogan episode before this one ever.
So like, but like Joe was great.
He's a gracious host and like he did a good job.
(09:00):
And like, but I know like my brother in law listens to Joe Rogan.
Like so many people I know listen to Joe Rogan, Christian and not Christian or
whatever.
For sure. And so that's just a massive platform where they just heard a frigging
dope, apologize. Yeah.
Just like say some stuff.
You know what I'm saying?
And who's interested in it?
Here is this kind of like this alpha male dude podcast guy.
(09:23):
Yeah. That was interested in it.
Right. So what does that say about our topic?
I think there is a positive side to this.
For sure. That whatever the motivations and there could be some political,
could be some, whatever, power oriented ones or whatever.
People are hearing about Jesus out of it.
And that's the fantastic thing.
Because we were talking earlier, like anybody going to get mad about
(09:45):
someone hearing about Jesus.
Oh, no. You know what I mean?
So no, I may not be Joe Rogan Stan, but I can love and I love that West half was on
there. Yeah, that was great.
So anyone having, you know, three hours of good conversation about things that are
kind of deep in the things of religion and Jesus and stuff.
So even with that kind of being said, it's like
(10:08):
you're not going to hear this episode being like, oh, Megan and Steven hate that
more men love Jesus now than they did before or more men are more religious.
And that sucks.
I think it just needs to be nuanced.
Like we need to understand.
Definitely nuanced.
So why don't you tell us that?
Why don't you, why is this pole in that thing true in the first place?
Yeah. And like, how can we contextualize it?
(10:29):
I think it's important that, you know, the news's job is to have
headlines that are interesting and make you want to click on stuff.
So to say, to have your headline that's like,
Gen Z men are more religious than Gen Z women.
That's going to make you want to click on it and be like, now what is going on in here?
So reading through it immediately, what I saw that was really interesting was a lot
(10:50):
of this conversation came up, obviously surveys and stuff are coming out about
all these different things, which is normal, like Pew Research and
Survey of the Center of American Life, like all that stuff.
That's all the time.
And those aren't religious organizations.
Like those are just research.
So those don't really have some of our barna group and stuff.
Yeah. But I will not be quoting Barna.
Sorry, guys. Sorry, Christians.
(11:13):
We will not be talking about Barna this time around.
But I thought what was really interesting was what they were highlighting.
The church that they were specifically highlighting in the New York Times article
was a Southern Baptist church.
And so when you think right off the bat,
OK, Southern Baptist Church, what are they?
They're against women in ministry.
Right. So right off the bat, right off the bat,
(11:33):
the church that is making people like have start to open dialogue about
their cop, seeing more men in church than before.
You see right off the bat, it's a church that doesn't value women in leadership.
So it kind of led me to like, OK, so what's the what's the conversation?
Like, what is the question that we need to be asking kind of when we're
(11:54):
looking at these kind of statistics and stuff?
So I kind of went a little bit deeper and saw it was trying to like analyze in general.
Like, what are the general statistics about how Americans period feel about
religion and period feel about Christianity?
Right. Statistically, Gen Z as a whole is less religious than any generation before them.
(12:16):
Even more than millennials.
Yeah.
Cons...
Which is shocking to a lot of people.
But statistically, we see that there is just like in general,
Gen Z are just not as religious in a lot of ways.
When you kind of frame it in that sense,
you see that maybe more men are more religious than Gen Z women.
(12:36):
But Gen Z as a whole is less religious than the friends who came before them.
So now we're like, oh, why?
But does it mean that as Gen Z is getting more religious,
more women were dropping off or women were dropping off at a faster rate than men?
Is that what you're saying?
So when you're looking at...
I was, you know, digging into all of this, right?
And I have some links and stuff that we'll put in the show notes that you can look
(12:59):
and read for yourself as well, because have fun with all that.
Statistics and stuff, if that's your ministry.
But statistically in other generations, right?
You would have...
This is right around the time because Gen Z is at the age where most generations
start to drop off in their religious experience.
They come back when they have kids.
And they come back when they're married.
They come back when they have kids.
That's very, very normal.
(13:19):
That was something that we've seen a lot, especially in Gen X and millennials.
That happened super, that's super, super common.
So Gen Z right now in general is actually at the age where the drop off kind of begins.
Yeah. Millennials are the ones who are coming back.
Millennials are starting to come back around.
Right. So they're hitting the age where it's like, oh,
they are getting married and they are having kids.
Right.
Okay, cool.
So they're coming back around.
(13:40):
The statistic difference is that they're saying that men are staying longer,
that these young men are staying in church longer than previous generations.
So they would say like millennials and Gen X,
the men will have already dropped off at this point in their adult,
in their young adulthood.
Okay.
Gen Z men are sticking around.
Okay.
But Gen Z women are still dropping off to the same percentage that they have in
previous years.
(14:01):
Ah, okay.
So that's kind of what the situation that we're looking at as of this exact moment.
So that's more positive than negative then.
So that is more positive than negative because the end,
like Gen Z aren't necessarily to the age group yet where everyone's married and
having kids.
Right.
So we haven't had the turnaround of that's pretty much statistically common of
get married, have kids come back.
(14:23):
So Gen Z are in the young adult era where they're still kind of falling off.
And then I think probably in the next 10 years,
we'll see the statistics change when they start to study alpha and then Gen Z hit
the age where they start to get married and have kids and then come back to the
church, stuff like that.
So that's kind of to give like a general sense of things is,
hey, this isn't actually as dreary and stressful.
(14:44):
Hopefully as it first feels when you're reading articles on the New York
times, when you dig a little bit deeper, you're like, okay.
So actually Gen Z is kind of right on track with what every other generation has
experienced when young adults start to drop off.
Guys just stayed a little longer.
Guys are just staying statistically a little bit longer.
What I wonder too, is Gen Z getting married less or, and this is something I was
(15:06):
thinking about, are they just getting married later?
Because we keep seeing like this prolonged adolescence, right?
Yes.
Like it keeps happening more and more every generation.
Yes.
So maybe the itch will happen for Gen Z to get married.
It's just going to happen when they're 30 now instead of 25 or 27 or something.
You know what I'm saying?
So that's totally true.
My mom, I remember when she did her capstone for her like master's project at
(15:28):
LPU where she was talking about how emerging adults, which is like what young
adults would be considered like 18 to 23 are taking longer to be established in
their adult milestones.
So like the generations before would be married by like 22, 23, right?
They'd be in a career.
I think millennials were average closer to 25 or 26.
23, 25, right.
But all the, all generations before us were younger.
(15:50):
Yeah.
And so now we're looking at Gen Z and they're saying stuff like, oh, the
statistical age of getting married is actually closer to their 30s.
Right.
And so it's taking a little bit longer to quote, hit milestones like marriage,
kids, whatever.
So it's taking longer in general.
So that, and that kind of started with millennials.
So Gen Z are actually just now hitting the age, right?
(16:11):
Where they would start to think about marriage.
Think about kids, think about, you know, having a career focused job,
stuff like that, right?
So all of that considered, it's not that shocking to me that these are the
statistics, right?
Oh, okay.
Like that makes sense that this is kind of what we're looking at right now.
But when you also consider, there are also things that I think we have to
(16:35):
look at that are a little sobering as well about reasons why women may have
dropped off from church.
And this is the kind of stuff that is hard, I think to talk about, but I do
think is worth unpacking and maybe getting a little uncomfortable because it
will help frame these kinds of articles that we read in a way that is like,
(16:56):
yes, we can celebrate that young men are sticking around, but I also think that
it's worth assessing why women aren't, you know?
And so what it leads us to ask the questions like, why is this true?
Like why are women still dropping off? Why is this the case?
So in a poll conducted by the Survey Center on American Life, nearly two
thirds or 65% of young women say that they do not believe that church treats
(17:20):
men and women equally.
I think that's really devastating, honestly, as a Gen Z woman who's
been in churches and stuff her whole life, right?
I, it's so, it's, it grieves me that that's like an ex, that's experience
that especially women have had in church.
And obviously we've had so many conversations even on the podcast of
(17:40):
people who've shared their feelings of church hurt and stuff on social media.
We have episodes about those things.
And the things that have been experienced in churches, especially in this
case by women, oh, it's awful. It's so hard.
And we see like public stuff, like when everything happened with Hillsong or
things that come out in churches of abuse and misogyny and all these things,
(18:02):
like that is so, that grieves me.
It grieves the heart of God for sure.
And it does, I think, have an influence on women choosing to stay in the church.
So we have, I mean, I've seen churches with misogyny.
We've got purity culture that plays a role with, we know that I've, we have
an episode about this as well as I've done research into what modesty has
(18:26):
and culture and shame culture has done for women, right?
Where I've looked into what purity culture and shame culture has done for
women, shame culture has been built predominantly around women for being
considered stumbling blocks to male purity or being viewed as something,
some woman to just become a wife and a mom.
And that's kind of their whole role is to serve and submit to the men in the
(18:50):
church and they've, that's their part.
Yeah.
So we've got that.
We've got a growing lack of desire for marriage and children in women and
Gen Z, which is a fairly new thing, honestly, in the generations that this is
the generation that has the most high percentage of women who no longer wish
(19:11):
to engage in either marriage or children, right?
In a different study, they said that women are, Gen Z women are less likely to
say they want to become parents by a margin of 12%.
Yeah.
So we are actually seeing a rise in women who no longer wish to be parents,
to be moms.
Do you think that's a delay or just say straight up, like that's, you know,
I'm saying like, oh, that's, that's what I wonder.
(19:33):
You know, I think it's both.
I know that there are some women who they're like, I would rather do this
when I'm established, when I'm like, have worked a job, like all these things.
So I know that there's some women who want to do a later thing.
Cause I'll, I'll give you an example.
Like my wife, Connie, when we got married, she was 21 and I'm four years
older than her.
(19:53):
And so I was 25 when we were just talking about like starting a family and stuff.
And I was working on my PhD and we decided that we didn't want to have kids
or anything until I was done with my PhD.
Right.
But she was also like, Hey, I want to enjoy my twenties.
You know what I'm saying?
Like we could, we could live in New York.
We could do this.
We could live in the city and.
Like let's go.
Yeah.
And I was like, I was like, yeah.
And then like it was fast after a baby fever hit her heart.
(20:17):
She said, oh.
It was like, it was like, all right, game over.
And she doesn't want to have any more kids.
Yeah.
Like, like after one we're like, all right, feel good.
But like, she definitely had the best.
She had the vibe where she wanted to have a child like kind of like hit her fast.
Yeah.
And so I wonder if that's not saying like, oh, that's going to happen for everybody.
Right.
Because that's not the case.
(20:37):
But I wonder if because things are delayed, does that thing also get delayed?
Like, will that come back?
Maybe when women are a little older, you know what I'm saying?
Or not, you know what I'm saying?
That's what I'm curious about.
Oh, for sure.
I'm sure there's so much that even in the next 10 years of research, we'll find out
about Gen Z.
And then stuff that we'll learn about Gen Alpha, who have been influenced by
(20:58):
parents who are millennials and stuff like that.
So I think that there's so much more to learn about this.
But when you're looking at the situation now, even as like, as a Gen Z woman,
I don't want to have kids.
Right.
I know a lot of women who I talk to who are my friends who do not want to have kids.
And that there's a lot of attribution of that to just straight up the things
that are like, the economy is bad.
(21:19):
And there's situations where they're like, I just like, that doesn't make sense.
Like, I don't, I know there's a lot of people Christian and not Christian who are
like, I don't want to bring a kid into this environment that is the current
state of the world.
Right.
And so there that's, that has drastically changed, especially when you're
traditionally look at, traditionally look at church, there is a very high
priority on marriage and children in the church has been for has been forever.
(21:43):
Oh, for surely.
And so when you now have a large, a larger percentage of women who are
saying, I don't really want to be a mother anymore.
Yeah, it makes sense.
And that's changing then.
And they're coming into a church that's talking to their purpose.
Yeah.
The talking one, if they're in a church that pretty much just prioritizes
families or they don't, are they're one of those people who like, doesn't like
to hire people who aren't married or doesn't like to hire people who don't
(22:05):
have kids, like stuff like that.
And they're hearing them preach that, that, that their best purpose is to be
a wife and a mom.
And then God give in purpose, then why would they stay?
Right.
When they're being preached at like, oh, the only thing I'm good for, the best
thing that I can possibly be is something I don't actually want to become.
(22:25):
So that's a, you know, the, the family unit, the nuclear family unit.
That's, that is somewhat of a cultural thing.
Obviously, families have been around forever.
Oh, for sure.
People get married forever.
And that is the general norm for people.
Nothing wrong with that either.
Nothing.
But like, I think some people will say is like, you got to also have a
theology of singleness that like a lot of Protestants don't Catholics do,
(22:47):
but Protestants don't know, we're actually quite poor at it.
Yeah.
And Jesus was single.
Right.
I mean, like that's Paul was single.
Yeah.
And so like there's, there's a calling maybe to singleness too, that like, I
think folks, some folks don't understand.
It might not be the case.
Maybe you're not called to singleness.
You just haven't found your person yet.
Yes.
Or, or you could be called to that.
Yeah.
So that's a more nuanced approach from churches to deal with all people.
(23:10):
Yeah.
And the scriptural things, I think definitely.
For sure.
And when you're looking at Gen Z women, statistically, they are more educated
than Gen Z men.
Um, statistically, they earn a higher income in prominent cities than any
female generation before them.
Um, and then they continue to report that they feel like they're treated
unequally in church.
So you've got these statistics of women who make a higher income than women
(23:31):
before them.
So they have this more, this focus on career.
They have a less of a desire to be a parent, a less of a desire to be married.
They have more education than the current men that they are surrounded with.
And they feel like they're being treated unequally in church, despite the
fact that they're more educated than they make money.
And they're in a stable place.
Then you're like, huh, maybe church isn't for me.
(23:54):
Right.
You know, I wonder too, we can't ignore some political congruence too.
This last election, it was more divided by gender lines than ever before.
A lot more men voted Republican than women and vice versa too.
And there was, I saw so many things about everybody talking about this all the time.
(24:16):
I remember Democrats talking about, we're losing men, we're losing male votes.
And like the inspiring, strong male figure that can inspire hope like Obama,
like wasn't present.
A lot of black and brown young men, Gen Z, voted Republican.
And Republican Party, and we've talked about this a lot, neither party is actually
(24:39):
a Christian party.
But the Republican Party is very forward and open about Christian ideology.
So I wonder if that starts becoming a cultural thing too.
Like it's culturally accepted to be Christian and Republican and a male.
Like those things all together.
Yeah.
Especially with this election, statistically that there has been a lot of lean towards
(25:03):
the separation where men are going to be more predominantly voting for Republicans
and then women are going to more predominantly vote to Democrat.
And then that statistically women are leaning more left than they have in previous
as they would politically define it.
Not like, let's not get crazy and obnoxious about that.
But just the generalities, right?
Where they're leaning more towards that.
(25:24):
And even as I was researching a lot of this, we've heard a lot recently about
this like male loneliness epidemic.
And this like, oh, men are lonelier now than ever before.
And a lot statistically of people are finding that these quote unquote lonely men
(25:45):
are finding their communities in church because church is valuing these things
that they find really important politically when they lean more conservative.
So they're like, oh, perfect.
I find my men who are very comfortable, you know.
Yeah.
And I mean, Hollywood and stuff in media had pretty strong voices against
(26:07):
like incels that would call them and stuff.
And but like they'll caught that.
But those were also things that were of general interest to young men generally.
And so guys like Jordan Peterson, if you listen to him, there might be some stuff
that you don't like or whatever, but there's a lot that he says that's just like
actually just generally helpful for men.
(26:28):
Yeah.
You know, because he's a psychologist and stuff like that.
So he'll talk about like having a sense of self respect when you go into,
you know what I'm saying?
Like showering and drinking.
Like showering and dressing nice and stuff.
Yeah.
Like hygiene is cool.
Yeah.
He'll talk like he'll literally talk about that kind of stuff.
He talks about his faith pretty openly too.
And so these people who would have been cast as incels, they feel that as a reaction is like
(26:52):
they're wanting general social guidance, general acceptance communally.
And the media and like Hollywood and stuff like that has rejected them.
Yeah.
So where are they finding this?
Yeah.
Some of it is in the church and then, but the church is supposed to be welcoming to all people.
Yeah.
And it is to a lot of people.
It is to a degree.
Yeah.
Obviously some churches struggle with those kind of things more than others, but yeah.
(27:15):
Yeah.
So I mean like it's, it's hard to call it positive or negative.
What I don't like is the politicization of it all.
Correct.
But I do like the idea that men are seeking Christ and community.
Yeah.
I think that's a good thing.
For sure.
But I do think that especially when you're looking at all those that like
all of these studies are based on men who say they go to church.
(27:38):
Right.
And say that they profess faith.
As we know, that does not mean that you're a good Christian guy.
Right.
Right.
Unfortunately, I know so many women who are fabulous, who I love, who are incredible women
of God, who have been, who have experienced interesting men.
(27:59):
Yeah.
Who go to church, who do all these things, right?
So also looking at this doesn't necessarily mean that just because you go to church,
yeah.
You're a good Christian guy.
And then you have to look and say that just because women are saying that they're not going
to church, doesn't mean that they don't love Jesus anymore.
Right.
Right.
But there is some nuance here when you're looking at all of these statistics and things.
(28:22):
So, but it makes sense that men are trying to find these communities in church because those are
more predominantly geared towards the male audience in a lot of ways.
Yeah.
Especially when you're seeing these differences in statistics of who Gen Z women are in a way
that they really haven't been before in a lot of ways.
And so when men are still in many, many men are seeking like the tradwife trend and stuff
(28:44):
as we've talked about before, where they're like, I just want a traditional wife.
Who does this, this and this?
And a lot of Gen Z women are not that anymore.
Right.
They're looking to have careers and they maybe don't want to have kids.
And so this, even the statistics of what who women are and then what men want are starting
to change.
Yeah.
And so when women feel like they're not finding someone who would be a suitable partner in church,
(29:08):
they're also more likely to leave as opposed to men who are finding their communities.
Women feel like they're not in church, which is something that is definitely a concern.
But up until this point, women have actually been the majority church attenders yet have
been largely unacknowledged.
Unfortunately, once it becomes the statistic that men who are supposed to, for a lot of
people are leaders of the church and leaders of the home, once they rise above women, it's
(29:31):
now news.
Despite the fact that those quote unquote leaders have been statistically less religious
up into this point.
Right.
But should the trend continue, it actually could have major repercussions for faith
communities since women are often the backbone of church congregations, feeling volunteer
efforts and are instrumental in engaging their families in faith.
Women do the majority of the work that keep the church going, said former evangelical
(29:55):
Sheila Ray Gregor, who studied Christian marriage in the U.S. and Canada for 17 years.
They're the ones responsible for getting children out of bed and going to church.
They're the ones staffing the Sunday school, making sure potlucks happen or that people
are supported when they have an illness or having a baby.
The church is not going to survive without women.
Right.
No, that's for sure.
Which is an interesting point.
I actually do at all my all my years attending church, I always thought it was really ironic
(30:17):
that on Mother's Day, families were at church on Father's Day, they weren't.
Like on Mother's Day, everyone was at church.
It was so busy.
It was popping.
But when it was Father's Day, everyone was out of town.
People were sleeping in.
People watched football games.
I don't know if I noticed that.
I don't know if it was the church that I went to.
Oh, I very much did indeed.
So it's like when you're looking at, it is statistically true that women are the ones
(30:41):
who are getting kids up and who are going to church.
Yeah.
So it does cause this, these statistics have caused concern among different faith communities,
especially with Todd Bollsinger, who wrote a book, wrote really great books.
One of them that I read once was Canoing the Mountains.
So he's great author.
He's an associate professor of leadership and formation at Fuller Seminary in Pasadena.
(31:02):
And he has said that cultural shifts mean that church leaders can no longer rely on
old ways of thinking.
He says for generations, people would say young adults will leave,
but when they get married and get their babies baptized, they'll come back.
He said, no longer, you have to have something to offer people.
If we're losing the people, the women who have historically been the most loyal
in their church, that's a four alarm fire.
The traditionalism is definitely not the same way in what you're talking about.
(31:27):
But I think we're going to, I don't know if we're going to see a swing of either way.
I wonder if the trend is going to be more like doing this together as a team,
as opposed to now men are doing it, as opposed to women.
Like, I don't, you know what I'm saying?
Like, I think it's more going to be team oriented.
And that's kind of how it is in my household.
I obviously has a tiny sample size one, but like, but I do think, you know what I'm saying?
(31:51):
Like in the past, it was like, the woman was the housekeeper, so she's doing all that stuff.
And so if that's less than that, then I think the couples that are going to church,
just kind of like more team effort-ish, you know?
Oh, I think that all of these things should then like pendulum swing, right?
Right.
But then settling in the middle should be this idea of partnership and teamwork.
Yeah.
Like church works because men and women attend and they bring their gifts and they make church happen.
(32:15):
Yeah.
Like it works because that's how we were meant to be from the garden.
Right.
Men and women in partnership, pursuing relationship with God.
Like that's why it, that's what we're supposed to do.
Like that's what, that's the design, that's the point, that's how we should be operating.
Like this is not by any means to say, okay, now we should switch and men should take over.
(32:37):
Exactly.
And this is not to say that, oh, now we need to cater church only to women so that they come back.
Right.
Like this needs to be a, like Todd Bolsinger said, a four alarm, four alarm fire because
this needs to be, how do we come back to what we were always meant to be, which is a partnership
between men and women to expand the kingdom of God.
Yeah.
I think what's important is like what these studies can do is, and we need to do this,
(33:00):
essentially every generation, is what are the needs of this generation, this particular generation.
Correct.
And so, and that's different every single time.
And so here's a shift.
Okay.
Men are seeking community and loneliness.
So the church needs to offer that.
And then women are not feeling valued in the church.
(33:21):
So how do we rectify that?
So the church needs to offer that.
Correct.
And so like, so like, basically just looking at like, how can the church, you know,
fill the needs, the spiritual and emotional needs of people.
Yeah.
In a way that makes sense and is healthy and good.
Right.
And it's like, still like what's never ever changed is the gospel.
Correct.
What's never ever changed is the Christian witness.
(33:41):
Yeah.
None of these things are ever changed, but also knowing the sociological needs of people
in your particular area is important because you got to meet needs, you know, mind, body, and soul.
Like, I think these studies are helpful.
And I think it's men being more religious than women is not a thing to celebrate,
but also not a thing to be scared of or angry at.
(34:01):
No.
It's neither of those.
Which why research is our friend?
Like research is friend, not foe.
Like it just tells us how things are going.
Like even there was another study that said the Gallup has found that trust and confidence
in organized religion has plummeted over the past two decades.
In 2021, only 37% of the American public reported having a great deal or quite a lot of confidence
in religious institution, a massive decline since 2001 when 60% reported feeling confident.
(34:25):
Not just Gen Z have been struggling this.
Americans have been dissatisfied with organized religion for the,
with 63% of Americans who are Christian according to the Pew Research Center,
which said it was down from 90% in the early 1990s.
So this isn't even just a Gen Z issue.
Right.
Like dissatisfaction with religion and with church has been going down statistically since the 90s.
(34:46):
Like this is not a men and women issue.
This is an even just a Gen Z issue.
Like this has been statistically a problem for 30 years.
And also like, but if, if a political regime brings it back, that's not going to help the situation.
No, it's not.
Because that's just going to make the people who distrust the church,
(35:09):
now it's like even more politicized and organized, like they're going to distrust it even more.
And so it might embolden some, distrust others.
The church just needs to be the right witness.
They just need to be kingdom of God oriented and not all this other stuff.
Meet people where they're at.
Yeah.
And also like, I think it's good as we talk about all the time is to,
and especially in this season is to zoom out.
(35:31):
This is American that we are talking about all of these statistics,
all of these percentage points, right?
They're all very, very American.
Because that's where all of the focus on this study is, right?
So if we zoom out a little bit and hit the global scale of things, right?
Pew Research did a global research set on men and women and the gender gap in religion, right?
(35:52):
And so they did it in religion as a whole.
So you can find the statistics on like,
Muslim, Buddhism, like you'll find stuff in there as well.
So, but when you're looking at just Christianity in the sense that in 61 of the 192 countries,
which 61 of the countries they researched, they tallied for this,
women are at least two percentage points more likely than men to have an affiliation in religion.
(36:16):
In the remaining countries, women and men display roughly equal levels of religious
affiliation because in many cases, nearly all people of both gender genders identify with
some religious group. There are no countries in which men are more religiously affiliated
than women by two percentage points or more. So if you're hanging out on this statistic,
men and women are pretty much equal most of the time.
(36:38):
Like this is like men and women are pretty much equal in their views of religion globally.
And I mean, there's a statistic that like the most average Christian is a brown woman,
which we talked about before.
Yes, we have.
Like what you're saying globally, that's a different story.
So this is definitely a Western American kind of topic that we're talking about right now.
Which is why all of this is so important that when you like see a headline,
(37:00):
and you don't just like start spouting said headline back at people like,
oh, Gen Z men are more religious.
Yeah, but like let's look at this something deeper to this, right?
Like what is it globally? Why are men staying? What's working?
Why are women leaving? What's not?
Like how do we assess these things that we're seeing that research is telling us and be able
(37:23):
to meet the needs? It's really exciting that men are choosing to stay in church.
There is never going to be a world in which we don't celebrate that more people are sticking
around in church, that more people are finding a belonging in Jesus Christ.
That's the goal. That's the goal of all of this is if we're doing our job,
people should be sticking around in church. That means that we're giving a good witness.
(37:45):
We're giving them something to stick around for that they're experiencing community and
they're experiencing relationship with God. Like that's the goal.
So you're not going to hear it from us like, oh, perfect.
We actually don't want more men in church. That's actually bad.
No, I love that men are sticking around in church. That's a win. That's great. That's a good thing.
(38:05):
It is.
But I'd also on the other hand, why are we losing women?
Right. Like what ways are we falling short in reaching the women in this generation?
What ways do we need to make sure that we are reaching the people of this generation?
So that men continue to stick around and that women don't leave.
Because honestly, I think statistically in all the generations, we shouldn't be losing young
(38:28):
adults. I think that we should do something to figure out how to not miss that gap when they
become young adults and then hope that they come back around when they are parents.
That's true.
Like we need to figure out how to reach them so that they don't go through the process of walking
away ever.
Deconstruction.
Yeah. Like how do we make sure that we're meeting people where they are now as teens and as young
adults so that they don't have to do the, oh, I leave the church. I'm going to go experience the
(38:52):
big bag world on my own and then come back around when I want something that feels safe to raise my
kids. Like how are we as Christians, as pastors, as ministers, as churchgoers? Like how are we
responsible? What can we do?
Because that trend right there, that just screams that Christianity is cultural. It's
cultural Christianity. It's not like to have that legitimate on fire faith for Jesus Christ.
(39:19):
You wouldn't just leave and come back based on convenience and based on another goal of
raising your kids in a certain way.
Right. Or we want stability or something consistent. We want to raise our kids morally
or something like that.
Yeah. That's not the motivation to loving Jesus.
Right.
That shouldn't be the motivation to loving Jesus. Your motivation to love in Jesus
is your conviction that Jesus is Lord.
(39:40):
Right.
Right. And so like that. So I think the church needs to kind of repress this conviction on it.
And we see this with young people. We see this to certain movements, worship movements, the
circuit riders are super on fire. Like there's like, there's some really good things happening.
But yeah, I think, I think for some reason the church got comfortable with the trend.
Yeah.
That 30-somethings will come back.
(40:02):
They'll come back.
But we should never have been comfortable with that.
Yeah.
We should be uncomfortable with the idea that kids out of high school leave.
And when they enter college and stuff like that. So why?
You know, like what's going on with our youth ministries?
What's going on with our, how churches are bringing up young people and stuff like that?
Oh, exactly. So it like begs the question, right?
(40:24):
As we like to kind of assess at the end of every episode, like how do we resolve this?
Like what is maybe a pastoral or a ministerial application that we can do
to maybe take the step and look at the uncomfortable truth of why statistically
women are leaving? And if so many Gen Z women are saying they feel unequally treated in church,
(40:48):
how do we rectify that? Or if we're saying, okay, we're providing men a place,
that's awesome. How do we keep doing that?
Well, also making sure that women have a place as well.
Yeah.
Like what are ways that we can make that happen?
Yeah. The church needs to meet the needs of people.
And you know, when we preach, create programs and you know, do the social work in the communities
(41:11):
and stuff like that, we just need to think about it in that holistic way.
How is this engaging both the men and the women? How is it engaging young people?
How is it engaging everybody? And being cognizant of that,
I think is how the church needs to respond. What do you think?
Yeah, I would agree. I think that we need to make sure that we're not just showing up and
every church is focusing only on people who need to be married or that we're communicating that
(41:33):
you all have to be parents or that you all need to be, you know, this and the other thing or
being that you all have to be this political affiliation, right? Like we've all just become
very comfortable doing the same thing. And I think that when you get too comfortable,
you, it's really hard to hold up a mirror. Like we need to be holding up a mirror to
ourselves as Christians and to us as the church and make sure that we're like, okay.
(41:53):
Yeah. Obviously that we're not changing the truth of who Jesus is.
No. That we're not changing the message of the gospel,
but how are we making sure that we are reaching the people that are right in front of us?
Pastors need to know their flock and they need to know those who we're trying to bring into the
flock in the community. And so what's going on, you know, what's going on in the world?
How do we meet those needs? How do we talk to those people? Yeah, that's good. All right. Well,
(42:17):
well, I think that's a kind of a sobering topic, kind of sad, but also like a challenge,
but not that sad also makes you think it's worth a thinker.
Something to think about, you know what I mean? And I know churches,
denominations, stuff have conferences that deal with this stuff all the time. Try to try to
figure this out. Yeah. It's important for us to think about it. But like, yeah, I mean, you guys,
(42:37):
if you have ideas, thoughts, comments, just throw that in there, throw it in there,
in your comments on the podcast, on YouTube or whatever. Here's, I think, a great topic.
Thanks for leading us in that, Megan. And honor as always. Yes. As always, you know,
this podcast was brought to you by the School of Theology and Ministry at Life Pacific University.
We'll see you next time. See ya.
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