October 29, 2024 • 41 mins
- The Chosen’s Healing Scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZDvcEkjthA
- A.J. Swoboda’s The Gift of Thorns
- Amos Yong’s The Bible, Disability, and the Church
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Do you remember the little John scene in The Chosen?
(00:02):
No.
Oh, it's little James, not little John.
What the heck?
Lil John.
Lil John, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Remember when Lil John got healed?
He was like, what!?
OK!
That's exactly what happened when Lil John was healed.
Welcome to TikTok Theology, a podcast that tackles the major
trending topics on social media that concern the Christian
faith.
I'm Meagan.
(00:23):
And I'm Steven.
We know you can't form a theology in three minutes or less,
but those videos can identify current issues.
TikTok will give us the prompt, and then we'll do a deep dive.
Thanks for joining us in this exploration.
Hello, friends.
Welcome back.
Today's episode, we had a little bit of a flip-flop.
(00:43):
For all the good and right reasons.
Yes.
We came in fully intending to have this conversation that I
won't say yet, because it'll probably end up on another season.
Steven and we're talking, and we really felt like,
based on some experiences that Steven had recently and the
direction of our lives and things that we think it might be
really poignant to talk about, can we be healed through prayer?
(01:04):
Yeah.
And kind of some theological conversations around healing.
So we're super excited about that.
Obviously, because this is kind of built from a personal
experience that Steven had, it kind of partners a little bit
with conversations on social media, but this did come from a
personal experience.
But on social media, I feel like we've seen like the concept
of healing is not new.
Right.
And maybe people aren't going to social media and being like,
(01:26):
well, can God heal?
Right.
But I feel like everywhere you look, there are either courses
being sold or mindfulness seminars or people who are in
this like spirituality space, new age space, whatever.
For sure.
And everyone is trying to be healed.
I don't think there's anybody who gets sick or in some way,
right?
Experiences something that needs a physical healing, right?
Or a mental healing and doesn't pursue a way to be healed.
(01:49):
So it seems that one, people care about healing and two,
implicitly people believe in healing somehow.
Yes.
Whether it's naturalistic or I'm going to, you know, use
essential oils or something like everyone's kind of looking
for a way to experience healing.
I also think that there has been some controversy in like,
love them all, but like Pentecostal or charismatic spaces
(02:09):
where people will go up and have these like healing nights or
whatever.
And then we see people getting like pushed down or people
getting slain in the spirit or all these things and people
having negative responses to that or people seeing something
of that filmed on social media and being like, this is foolish.
This doesn't make sense.
You're pushing a person like what's going on.
And so for memes made out of like, stuff like that.
(02:31):
Yes.
So they let the bodies hit the floor.
I've seen them in a bunch of time.
A whole bunch of things, right?
And so it's, I think that this is good to have a conversation
of what we mean when we're talking about healing.
That's not necessarily, oh, I'm going to shove you to the
ground and the Lord is going to heal you as you fall, right?
But that there is an order to this and that there is a
theological understanding to this.
(02:52):
So we're super excited to kind of touch on this topic today.
Yeah.
To get into it, I am so excited about it because I experienced
something that I've never experienced before this past Sunday at church.
And so I want to somewhat document it.
Okay.
So we somewhat put this out there for life.
Yeah.
We record these episodes a couple of months beforehand before
they're released.
(03:12):
So today is August 13th.
Yes.
And this happened on August 11th.
It's happened two days ago.
All right.
This is pretty cool.
Not going to lie.
All right.
He said not to flex, but this is sick.
I was at my church, Pasadena, Foursquare, and we were leading worship.
And I did firm foundation with a tag of great R.U. Lord.
Good combo.
It's a good combo.
Immediately a good combo.
(03:33):
You know what I mean?
People do this one a lot and it makes sense.
The cords work out really good and it's just, it's just good.
You're like from a practical stance.
Yeah.
It's just solid, solid stuff.
Yes.
So I'm leading this and we're doing great R.U.
Lord and it's kind of ending the worship set and the sermon and
everything is going to move on after that.
So we're at the bridge, right?
(03:55):
Yeah.
Great R.U. Lord.
And the bridge, as you know, really dope.
It says, all the earth will shout your praise.
Our hearts will cry.
These bones will sing.
Great R.U. Lord.
And as we were singing that, there was this woman in the congregation.
It looked like she was in her sixties.
She was thin.
She looked relatively healthy.
Like she wasn't like sickly looking or anything like that.
(04:17):
And she started feeling pains in her back.
As soon as we started singing, your bones will sing and come to find out.
This woman has had some real chronic back issues dealt with scoliosis and
different things and has been prayed over for a long time.
And she's been in this community for decades and she's just a good,
legitimate professional and a strong congregant there.
(04:37):
Well respected.
Everybody knows her.
So during that part, I didn't see this, but she went into the foyer,
which is at the back of the church or like you get Californians like to
pronounce foyer foyer foyer.
And so she went back there and one of the people at the church, one of the elders,
he's an older man, probably in his sixties as well.
His name is Steve.
He was praying for her.
And I didn't know.
(04:58):
So we finished the song and went off stage and then I went to the back of the
sanctuary and stood with my wife.
She was taking photos.
She was pulling a Megan Lord for the service.
So I was just standing with her as I was standing this other lady from our
congregation named Lisa was like, Hey, Steven, go back there and pray for
them.
I was like, what?
And she was like, yeah, go pray.
And I didn't know what was going on.
(05:18):
And so I looked over.
Yeah.
I just, I just went and I looked over and Steve was praying over this lady.
When I walked in, she was bent over her arms were stretched out and she had
them on the wall and Steve had his hand on the middle of her back and she was
breathing really, really poorly.
Like if you've ever slipped a disc in your back, have you ever done that?
(05:40):
No.
So it's like when you're a disc actually starts touching your nerves and it's
like you tighten up and you can't really breathe like constricts your breathing.
So you're like, you're breathing really fast.
And so she's breathing like that.
She's crying and she's actually convulsing her hands are like shaking on the
wall.
So she's just like, she's just breathing like that and just like really,
really in pain.
And so I went over there and I put my hand on top of Steve's like right
(06:01):
below her neck over her spine area.
And then so we were both praying.
And so we were praying for a couple of minutes, praying for healing, you know,
declaring certain things saying like, you know, God, this person, I'm going to
keep her anonymous just in case she doesn't want to share it.
You know, she's yours and her mind, body and soul is yours and your mighty hand
can come in here and heal her body.
And we were just praying like this, Steve's praying in tongues.
(06:23):
And so is she.
She's a real deep Christian too.
So she's praying to it through her tears and stuff.
And after a few minutes of this, I literally felt her spine move under my hands.
And so did Steve.
Some bones shifted to the left.
It was like, have you ever felt like a bone popped out of place and then it popped
back into place?
Yeah, I've done that with like my hip before.
(06:44):
It was like that.
It looked like that was happening.
Yeah.
And so after that happened, she started breathing like normally.
And then she was like, did you guys feel that?
And we were like, yeah, we did.
And then she stood up straight.
And then she was just like breathing off, finishing like weeping still.
And then me and Steve were just like, we surround her and praying for her.
And then she was just like, she was like, I've had back problems forever.
Like this is something that's happened so long.
(07:06):
We're just kind of like talking to her and you're like, wow, man, God's good.
She went back into the service and where we all went back to the service.
And then she sat in their pew and she was like straight up sitting there.
And then afterwards, man, she was so overjoyed.
She was just like telling, she told the pastor of the testimony and she was like,
she was like, tomorrow I'm going to go, I'm going to go to the doctors.
I'm going to get an X-ray to see about my back because she was like,
(07:27):
I've never stood this straight in two decades.
And she was just like rejoicing and hugging me and hugging Steve.
And it was such a joyful situation.
And Megan, I have never, I've prayed for people for headaches and migraines
stuff like that, gone away.
I've never prayed for someone and felt the bones move.
Oh, that was crazy.
(07:48):
Oh man.
That'll get you.
It was, it was so not just inspiring, but like, man, God is good.
Like, like, like me and Steve ain't nothing to do with that.
Like that was God wanted to demonstrate it.
And I'm just blessed that I was able to be part of this miracle and, and,
and her body is healed.
And I'm curious to see what, you know, the doctor said if it was,
if it was like a forever healing or if it's just like, you know,
(08:09):
in that moment, whatever spasm, back to the spasm she was having or tightness
or whatever, maybe that got healed there in that moment.
But like, I was like, wow, that's, it's incredible.
Isn't that great?
Yeah.
Man.
So after that, I texted you and I was like, Hey, I really want to do a topic
on healing because it's a difficult topic for a lot of people because I think
with this experience happening to me and, and you know me, like a scholar is
(08:31):
pretty skeptical about bunch of stuff.
Like, like, yeah, we're going to, we're not going to just like take things
and just be like, yeah, that sounds real.
Yeah.
Um, you know what I'm saying?
Like, but when you are just believing Jesus and something undeniable like
that happens to an analytical brain like mine, I'm like, Oh snap,
we got to record his junk.
This is, this is not a, this is not a drill.
(08:52):
So if you're out there like struggling with just the truth of it all, homie,
I just felt bones move under my hands two days ago and you can take me for my
word or not, you know, but I wanted to record this because whenever I'm
struggling with my faith years from now, I can listen back to this and remember
how real this situation is.
You know, what we should talk about is not if healing happens because it does
(09:15):
because I think we're just going to assume it does.
I've experienced it.
You've experienced it.
Yeah.
And think about it just logically.
We're talking about the God who created all things out of nothing with his words.
You don't think he can heal one of his children.
Yeah.
It just doesn't make any sense for that not to happen.
Even if you're a free will, it's like me and we want to say, Hey,
(09:37):
you get the consequences of your response.
He's not going to interfere.
No, being a free will theorist doesn't mean he won't interfere.
Right.
It means he won't interfere against your will.
He's a gentleman, right?
But like you have three people gathered praying for her healing and God wanted
to show up and do this.
But we also know there's situations when people don't get healed and there's
(10:00):
situations when they do.
What does that look like?
I think we have to talk through a theological framework of what healing is
like. How have you experienced it in your own life?
I haven't necessarily been a part of the physical prayer that has healed
somebody in front of our eyes.
Right.
But I remember like going to camp and hearing like all kinds of stories of
like healing and stuff where some girl came up wearing glasses and then she
(10:21):
lost her glasses like day two and had been like really struggling because she
was like, now I'm up here and I can't see anything.
I can't do anything.
I can't participate in any of the games, whatever.
And the staff had been looking like I was on staff and everyone had been
looking for these glasses.
Like no one was sure where they went.
And when 500 kids are at camp, it's like a needle in a haystack, right?
And then come to the final day, everyone's giving their testimonies and
(10:43):
stuff and she goes up and she was like, literally God healed my eyesight.
She was like, by the end of the camp, she was seeing just fine.
Like, like literally no longer left the mountain, like never got the glasses
back, no longer needed the glasses, stuff like that.
Or it's like I had a spiritual gifts class with Amy Selby, my freshman year.
And we were supposed to, one of the assignments was to like pray for
(11:04):
physical healing for yourself or someone else.
And I was having this weird thing with my eyes where they were like turning red,
like bright red, like all the time.
Like I put eye drops in, nothing I could do.
Like I don't know why I'm sleeping.
Like all the things they were like and chronically red.
And I was like, what is going on?
And that had happened for like a couple of days and this assignment came and I
was like, okay.
So I had like prayed over my own eyes, right?
And then did all the things and then woke up the next morning and they were
(11:27):
no longer red and they were never red again.
And so it's like, oh, so I've had experience like personal that I've
prayed over myself and I've received healing.
I've had those two and I've prayed over like, you know, headaches and migraines
and stuff like that and certain things like that.
But like not felt like physically someone be healed.
People I think will be much more skeptical about hearing even these stories.
(11:47):
Like where we believe they're healings, but they're like, eh, you could have
just been getting over it anyway.
You know, like it was going to go over and this and that.
Like they could, they could say that kind of stuff.
I mean, that doesn't change our beliefs, but like, bro, there's three of us
and we felt these bones move.
Yeah.
It's also a good conversation though, because this girly had not been healed
probably for the times, the 20 years that people have been praying over her.
(12:10):
And so how do we hold intention the 20 years that she prayed for this thing?
And it didn't happen.
This random day in her older age and there was healing.
So how do we hold intention?
This didn't receive healing and then did or want to, but don't.
I think it's all good conversations to have, especially because I know people
(12:30):
who family members not being healed or them personally not being healed is a
piece that shakes their faith down to this deconstruction where they're like,
well, if you were good, you would have healed me.
And so I think healing is a very sensitive topic that can and has a lot of
power, especially over our faith journey and our faith walk and our belief
(12:51):
and trust in the Lord.
And if we don't have a good understanding of it,
good theology, then this will shake every aspect.
When someone we know gets sick or someone, or we ourselves get sick or
experience, you know, that kind of suffering.
Like how do we reconcile a God that we say is a healer,
but that there's not always a physical healing every time that we ask.
(13:11):
So I mean, I guess the, the one thing that we can see is healing is not
transactional.
And that's actually pretty important because people do think that they
think if they have enough faith, then the healing will occur.
As if there's a transaction to be had.
I give the Lord prayers.
He gives me healing.
Yeah. But that's not how it works.
It's literally not how it works.
(13:32):
Right. The fact that sometimes you get healed,
sometimes you don't show that it isn't.
And there's scriptures that talk about it.
For instance, in John nine, when Jesus heals the man that was born blind,
this is what it says.
Now, as Jesus was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth and his disciples
asked him, Rabbi, who sinned this man or his parents that he was born blind?
(13:53):
Jesus answered, neither this man nor his parents sinned,
but this happened so that the works of God would be displayed in him.
And then Jesus heals him.
So there's a couple of things that happened here.
One, he wasn't inflicted because of sin.
Correct.
We can think broadly because of the results of the fall.
Yeah.
That we're in a fallen world.
(14:13):
So like maybe that's what it was, but it wasn't no particular sin that he or
his parents did.
Right.
But then secondly, so that way God's power would be displayed through
this guy.
And so why is he being healed?
For God to be glorified in this moment.
So there isn't a transaction that this guy did.
He didn't just like, you know, do something special this day that got him to be healed.
(14:35):
But it was so that we got to be glorified.
And so I think one of the big issues is a lot of times Pentecostals are too
triumphalistic.
Right.
We only want to focus on the times were healed, all the victory, all the good
stuff.
And then we want to rephrase or rethink or think about stuff that like when things
don't work and we want to either ignore them or talk about them in a way that like
(14:57):
it's almost like gas lit.
Like that didn't really come up with a reason why.
Yeah.
Like, oh, well maybe, but you didn't have a faith or you didn't, which is right.
All the sad, horrible things that people have heard.
Unfortunately.
That too.
Or, or like, no, I am healed.
I just, I just need to believe it.
Oh, right.
So they'll keep going, you know, like there's a bunch of things like that I think are just
fundamentally damaging and they show us not having a worked out theology on healing.
(15:22):
Yeah.
I think one of the main and best ways that we can look at healing, theologically, is
to think about it through an eschatological lens.
Eschatology, the eschaton is, is when Christ returns, make it all thing new.
And this is this new age, what is intended of us when we're living in the new Jerusalem.
So if we have an eschatological view, we realize that people are healed and reconciled
(15:46):
spiritually, emotionally and physically, not because they did something special,
but as a natural consequence of drawing close to God.
Yeah.
If you are drawing close to God, you're going to be healed in many ways.
Yeah.
Now, what if you're not healed physically?
Well, think about what a healing is a healing.
That's just delaying the inevitable of death.
(16:10):
Yeah.
And then what happens there?
Your ultimate healing.
When you rise with Christ, you are beautiful, glorified self, like you're a glorified body,
a spiritual body that is without hurt, without need of healing.
Yeah.
That is the end result.
That's the T loss.
That's the, that's what we're actually striving for.
Right.
(16:31):
This woman that got healed Sunday, she got healed now, but that healing is not final.
Right.
She and us and we all will die at some point.
Right.
And so we have to remember what a healing is.
This is the best framework that I could see.
Healings are a foretaste of what is to come.
(16:52):
Yeah.
Because we are not fully healed until we are standing in the presence of Christ.
Right.
But when we're standing in the presence of Christ, we are made completely whole.
Right?
Yep.
So being made whole now, that is healing that's happening now, but that's also us experiencing
a foretaste of what is to come, catching a glimpse of it.
(17:14):
It's like, if we can just imagine heaven opening up for a second and we can just see in there,
and we just catch that glimpse and just catching that glimpse right there, heal us in that moment, you know?
Yeah.
That's, that's what that is.
And so when you start thinking about it that way, you start seeing healing is the thing that happens when you draw close to God.
We start catching glimpses of what is to come for us.
(17:35):
Yeah.
God is working things out in our lives emotionally, spiritually, in our relationships, in our communities.
He's healing all sorts of stuff.
And you know what else he's healing in that?
Our bodies.
And so we will end up finding healing, even physical healing, because God made us mind, body and soul.
Yeah.
But is it always the case that are, that we're physically healed?
(17:56):
No.
I mean, Paul had a thorn in his side his whole life.
Some people speculate wildly what that might be.
And I think there's, it's kind of pointless to speculate.
The best speculation I think is maybe that he struggled with blindness.
Cause remember he was struck blind at Damascus at the end of some letters.
He's like, now I Paul, right?
This in my own hand and big letters.
(18:17):
And cause he had scribes.
He had a bunch of scribes writing for him.
And so the idea is maybe he was, he has struggled with blindness.
But again, sheer speculation.
We have no idea, but he never was healed from whatever that thorn inside was.
Right.
Right.
And that was a question that he had and he had to figure it out theologically.
Yeah.
You know?
Somehow him not being healed was a testimony.
Yeah.
(18:38):
You know?
Yeah.
One of the most powerful things there is a scene in the chosen.
And if you guys haven't watched the chosen, I highly recommend it.
Now listen, I'm an artist and sometimes some Christian media is cringe.
It is not good.
However, the chosen is so dang good.
It's ridiculous.
Highly recommend it.
I would agree.
I've been disappointed by Christian media a lot in my life.
(19:00):
And I have, I'm shocked by how good it is.
Okay.
So there's this one scene.
This is the most touching scene.
Like I definitely was crying during the scene.
I couldn't even help it.
This is in season three.
There's this actor who plays little James.
The actor is disabled in real life.
And in the show, he's disabled.
He can't walk fast and like there's certain things he has a disability.
(19:22):
And it's a scene where Jesus goes and sends out the disciples two by two to go perform healings and miracles and stuff.
And he sends little James out and James confronts Jesus and says, like, how did you send me out to go heal people when I myself am not healed?
Why can't I be healed?
And I'm already like, oh snap.
This is like, oh, that's real talk right there.
(19:45):
So Jesus says little James, precious little James, I need you to listen to me very carefully because what I'm going to say defines your whole life to this point and will define the rest of your life.
Do you understand?
To know how to proclaim that you still praise God in spite of this, to know how to focus on all that matters so much more than the body to show people that you can be patient with your suffering here on earth because you know you'll spend eternity with no suffering.
(20:13):
Not everyone can understand that.
How many people do you think the father and I trust with that?
Not many.
And then James says, but the others, there are so much more stronger, better at this.
And he says, James, I love you, but I don't want to hear that ever again.
When you pass from this earth and you meet your father in heaven where Isaiah promises you will leap like a deer, your reward will be great.
(20:37):
So hold on a little longer and you discover yourself finding true strength because of your weakness.
When you do great things in my name in spite of this, the impact will last for generations.
That I think is powerful because he's not saying James, you're not healed because you didn't have enough.
He's not saying any of that stuff.
He literally said, I am trusting you to be the witness to the world of God's goodness, even when your body isn't healed.
(21:06):
To be able to preach that message even when he himself is inflicted.
I think this is what kept Paul going.
He had the thorn in his side and he was able to preach even despite that.
And so I thought that was just so powerful.
Chosen is the bomb.
You guys need to watch that.
And that is a much more mature look at healing.
(21:27):
You know, like healings happen almost seemingly haphazardly.
And they're not like this thing of just like, if you pray enough for this and that, I think the thing is we should pray for healing.
We should yearn it.
We should seek it.
But above all, we should not be praying for healing.
We should be praying for God's will to be done in the situation.
Because what if little James being not healed became the witness that some people needed in order to follow Jesus?
(21:55):
What if there was other people that were dealing with various disabilities and stuff?
Now James was able to reach them because of that.
Yeah.
It's where we get to the fine line that we have to make sure that we're drawing where we're not seeking the...
I've heard someone say somewhere that we're not seeking the gift more than we're seeking the giver.
We're really praying for healing, praying for any aspect of a miracle of any kind, right?
(22:18):
Yeah, we're praying for those things.
But at the heart of it, we should be praying and asking for more of Jesus.
For more of who God has called us to be and how we're supposed to live.
Because I think that it's very easy even for Christians to be like, I'm guilty of this, right?
I've done all the right things.
I followed you.
I've lived this life for you.
You owe me a healing.
Yeah.
You owe me this miracle.
(22:40):
You owe me this, right?
And that's when I think it's very easy for this to become a transactional relationship where it's like,
I'm seeking the healing more than I'm seeking the Lord.
The healer.
The healer.
And so I've had to even frame the way that I've thought of these kinds of things,
of miracles, of blessing, of all the things, right?
To make sure that I'm seeking the Lord first.
(23:01):
That like, Lord, I want to know you deeper.
I want to know you more.
If that accompanies these physical healings, if it accompanies miracles, that's awesome.
But if not, I have to remember who we're seeking.
If we're letting our faith be shaken when we don't see the miracle,
then we aren't actually seeking the Lord.
We're just seeking a way for us to be more comfortable.
And like I said, just realizing that drawing close to God, you are being healed.
(23:24):
It might be your emotions.
It might be your spirit.
Yes.
It might be your heart.
It might be, yeah, I know people who were sick for a very long time,
and they prayed for healing and it wasn't a physical healing,
but eventually they found this great peace
in operating in their illness or in their struggle, where...
And then that became a testimony in others.
And then that became a testimony and it changed people's lives or whatever.
But yeah, I think with these conversations,
(23:46):
it's important to really show that, yes, the Lord is a healer,
but nowhere in scripture is it explicitly stated that
every affliction we ask for healing for on this earth,
we will receive healing for.
You know, when we are healed physically and emotionally,
we're experiencing a small part of an ultimate healing
that will take place at the eschaton.
Right.
So, healings are essential to what we're doing.
(24:08):
Right.
They are signs that point to God's eschatological aim of renewing everything.
Yeah.
Right?
And everything will be renewed, but we just have to see them as that,
as like sign points, as like little graces that happen that we experience.
Some Pentecostals and Charismatics
vest so much interest in the present moment of healing
that they lose sight of the ultimate eschatological healing,
(24:31):
not just what you said, which was so important,
you're losing sight of the healer.
Yeah.
But you're also losing point of his main ultimate goal.
Yeah.
The eschatological meaning of ultimate healing.
Right.
So, healings happen on God's timing and for God's purposes.
And they are transformations that occur when we encounter God at the point of our need.
Yeah.
But sometimes our needs can get met in other ways.
(24:54):
Mm-hmm.
God giving us the grace to pursue regardless of what it is.
Yeah.
The Bible says God is gyra.
He's provider.
Right.
It's a physical healing.
Sometimes it's not.
And so, what happens when God doesn't heal?
Have you come across this at all?
Yeah.
My grandma died when my mom was, when I was like two.
(25:15):
And obviously had like a very painful and whatever thing on my mom and my family and all the things.
And my mom has talked about it since and is like,
we prayed relentlessly for her to be healed.
I had the same experience.
Right.
And it's like my mom was a pastor and like my grandpa was a pastor and all these people
and my grandma was like a pastor and like was so involved in church and like so many people loved her
(25:38):
and so many people prayed for her and spoke unfortunately like words that were like,
she will be healed and all of these things.
And then she wasn't.
Yeah.
And that was devastating.
Of course.
And it was like, oh, like this person who was in church and had everybody and their mom praying for them and all of these things.
And it, she still died.
Yeah.
(25:59):
And there's so many people who've lost a parent or lost a loved one or all these things and prayed for healing.
When I was 20, my mom died of cancer and I was in college.
Every aspect of this was devastating, completely devastating.
The most crucial time of my life.
That was difficult.
And I remember we were in her hospital and she was being taken off of like her breathing and stuff.
(26:21):
And like she was going to die and we were all there huddled and I was holding her hand and we were praying like crazy.
I was praying and I had belief the entire time that she would be healed.
And then I just saw it slip away and I saw her line just like stop and then she died.
And it wasn't until after that I started weeping, just bawling.
(26:43):
Yeah.
Because she wasn't healed.
Yeah.
And it was so hard.
I never, I'll say I never questioned God's realness, but I questioned God's love.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
He seemed cruel.
And I remember I had a good friend that helped me through that situation, my friend Wesley.
Man, I was, it was tough and there's not a lot of, a lot of words for all that, you know?
No, there was never a word.
(27:04):
And still, I still don't like talking about it very much.
And so there was that experience and then some of them are even like just kind of more egregious.
Like I remember I was on a mission trip.
I was taking my youth to Nashville and we were ministering to some of the homeless communities there.
And they did a really good thing where they would have a dinner for homeless people and invite them all there.
And it wasn't a like, hey, let me throw a sack of food at you.
(27:28):
And then just like, and say God bless you and then leave.
They created whole situations and environments where they invited the entire community to eat and break bread and have like nice potluck meals with the church community and everybody there.
And they like had, they made the whole sanctuary like that.
So it was really, really a cool situation.
Yeah.
We were out there and one of, not one of our leaders as a church, but one of their leaders that was volunteering for the organization, he recently became a Christian and he was on fire.
(27:53):
And on fire in a good way, but then also in a dangerous way.
So he had a lot of zealousness, man.
So he was like, we were praying for people.
He was zealously like talking about, you know, like, hey, let's God bless you this and that.
And just like going around, man, we went to the park.
There was a guy in a wheelchair and he was like, hey, let me pray for you.
And the guy's like, uh, okay.
(28:14):
And then he's just like, he's like, I'm gonna pray for your healing.
You're going to be healed from this wheelchair because God desires for us all to be healed.
And so you prayed for him and I'm there with all my youth.
And then he prayed for him and he tried to pull him out of his wheelchair and the guy fell on the floor.
Oh Lord.
And then we helped him back up and I had to like take my youth and just be like, hey, this guy was working on his own accord and not from God's calling.
(28:39):
God did not call him to do that.
He just had a zealousness and just had like a, an immature faith where it's just like, God desires for us to all be healed.
So we can just like declare it now.
God desires for us all to be healed and that is going to come.
But in this day and age, in the midst of this world that is, that is afflicted by sin, we might have to have a thorn in our side.
(29:00):
There may not be that and this person may not have been willing or anything and that you're just calling it like as if you had some kind of a superpower or something.
So this hurts real bad in these situations.
This guy didn't have the tools to work through what it means.
And then after that, I don't even know what happened to his faith. I had to talk to my students and be like, hey, when God calls us to pray for healing, God wants to do something.
(29:22):
It's God's timing.
That doesn't mean, you know, like I had to talk about all that with them and they understood it.
I guess, you know, some people entered denial.
Some people lose their faith.
You know, we don't have appropriate theologies of suffering or lament or the idea that like we might lose people like I did, like your mom did.
What is our theology that can help us through that?
And so I think the eschatological theology is helpful here again.
(29:46):
While God desires for all to be healed, like it says in Exodus 23, 25 to 26, ultimate healing occurs at the eschatal when Christ returns.
And so it's important for us to believe and pray for present healing, but we must trust that God's healing may come in the age to come.
May come in the next age.
Healings that happen in this age are not ultimate anyways. They're there to glorify God, to be a witness to the world.
(30:13):
And they're a beautiful faith building thing.
Boy, did it build my faith when we pray for that woman on Sunday.
But that's not her ultimate healing.
She will be ultimately healed.
And so will I and so will you.
And that's a good thing.
So healings that happen, they point towards an ultimate healing that takes place at the eschaton.
And I think we really need to function for that.
One, we do absolutely need to have the courage to pray for healing.
(30:37):
And have the belief that God can heal us whenever God wants to.
But then also have the trust that God will heal us when it is right for us to be healed.
And that's a big difference.
That third one, a lot of Pentecostals are missing, I think.
Yeah, I think it's hard.
I mean, even if you're sick, if your family's sick, whatever, it's hard to reconcile the sovereignty and timing of healing.
(31:01):
And timing of God's healing power when it doesn't feel like it's coming when you want it.
Or when it's coming, when it makes sense.
Because I think that's, I think a lot of issues like, well, it makes sense for God to heal, right?
Like I'm a Christian, I love the Lord.
Like, doesn't that make sense?
Like he should heal me.
And I think that there's so much, there's just so much more to it.
(31:22):
But we're in a fallen world still.
We are in, right.
So let's talk about God is about healing the whole person.
Like what all does that mean to you?
Like, you know, we talked about mind, body, soul, but like what about even beyond that?
Like God healing communities and societies and whatnot.
What does that mean to you?
I mean, the entire ministry of Jesus was to bring healing, wholeness, restoration.
(31:48):
And if you dig into those aspects, which is what's cool about studying the Bible, right?
When you dig into the miracles and the levels of what Jesus was doing,
we can see things like when he heals like the lepers,
or when he healed the woman with the issue of blood, right?
That it went even a step beyond the physical healing in a lot of spaces.
(32:10):
That for instance, the woman with blood, right?
When she touched his robe and she was healed,
that wasn't just the physical healing of the bleeding.
It was a reinstatement into society.
It was a healing of her societal role.
It was a reconciliation of her to her community,
because when you were bleeding in that age, right?
(32:31):
You were outside the city gates because you were considered unclean.
It was more than just a physical healing for her.
And then it was, you know, most of Jesus's healings were followed up with,
you know, either go and sin no more or go and tell people about this, right?
There was a combined witness and there was a combined spiritual healing as well.
A command for holiness. Correct.
(32:52):
So Jesus healed holistically, or he would heal physically,
but then also healed spiritually and calling people to sin no more
and to be in this holy, to live in this holy and righteous manner
that they weren't living before and healed societally,
where they were welcomed back as members of society,
maybe when they were in outcast before. That's a big deal.
And that was a huge deal.
(33:13):
So I feel like from what we've seen, even how Jesus was a healer,
there are so many levels to healing that go just beyond a physical healing
and that even physically being healed brings in more holistic healing,
societally, spiritually, mentally is a big one,
especially now that we've actually started having conversations about mental health and stuff is like,
(33:34):
the Lord is healing people mentally as well.
And so it's, I think, clear that Jesus as the Christ like example in scripture,
but also the representative of the heart of God is that,
that he desires to heal us holistically and that even physical healings lend to
a larger holistic healing viewpoint.
(33:55):
That's not just about a physical aspect, but what it brings in.
So it's like you're being healed physically and then you're going to tell people,
now you're a testimony, which is a larger healing of reaching more people
and being more, you know, spreading the kingdom and increasing the kingdom
and all that kind of stuff.
And we should be for those efforts too. Yes.
So like reinstituting people into a society. Yes. That's important.
(34:16):
And so, you know, let's, like, I know this is going to get into politics a little,
we're still in the season, right? Yeah.
But think about racial reconciliation, you know, healing between groups, right?
Which we had that great episode earlier this season.
That great conversation. Yeah.
Efforts in social and educational reform when people need healing in that sense.
So gender equality, people need healing in that sense too.
(34:39):
But then what about like reintegrating ex-cons? Right.
Right? Yeah.
Like, so there's prison ministries that a lot of people are drawn to
because these are human beings that made bad mistakes, might be mentally ill.
They might have a lot of issues, but isn't it, shouldn't we be for their healing?
(35:01):
And that doesn't mean that they don't have restrictions.
Like depending if they like, what if there was like a sexual assault or something like that,
like that, you know, obviously they can't be with certain groups or whatever,
they can't be trusted in that sense.
But we should be for their healing, for their reintegration in a society
to the extent that there is safety, right?
And I think sometimes people are so ruthless, they're brutal.
(35:22):
Like where I, for an eye, you get what you deserve, but like,
I think God's heart is probably for justice, of course,
but a justice that is not just retribution, but a justice that's remedial
or justice that's trying to bring people back, right?
Think about marginalized people being accepted into a church community.
And what way are they marginalized?
(35:43):
Is it racial? Is it heritage type things?
Even if it is something that we deem a sin, you know, transgenderism, LGBTQ kind of issues or whatever,
they're marginalized, but how about being welcomed as human beings
and loved and cared for as human beings?
Not affirmed in their sin, just like Jesus didn't affirm the woman at the well's sin.
He didn't affirm the fact that he was a human being,
(36:06):
but he affirmed her as a person and there's a big difference there.
There's a lot of healing in that.
And the general striving for just a peaceful society, you know?
I had a friend, he was struggling with homosexuality for a long time
and he was really like, didn't want to tell anybody or anything.
And he confessed it to me, we were on our way to an art show
and he was just like, he felt comfortable with me for other various conversations we had in the past,
(36:29):
and he just felt so much shame. And I was like, you know what?
Before you even go, God loves you.
And when I said God loves you, he started weeping right there in the car.
And that just demonstrates that he felt so much shame
that he didn't even feel like God loved him.
Some healing needs to take place right there, you know what I mean?
(36:51):
And so just like showing love and acceptance in their Imago day,
acceptance in there just being a person in this world, right?
That we need to do as a church.
This is a healing of society and social structures.
We can be for these things.
Communities are healed and we are truly reconciled
when we fight for justice and lives of those who suffer, right?
(37:14):
I don't even think we need to think of a balance of like,
I'm going to balance truth with compassion.
No, you'd be 100% truthful and you'd be 100% compassionate.
That's not even needing balance. You need to do both, right?
And so, you know, this is what we need to do.
Jesus came, he called us.
He said his ministry was to bring good news to the poor.
(37:35):
He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives
and recovery the sight to the blind to let the oppressed go free.
And don't you like how like sight for the blind is a physical healing?
Release of the captives is social, you know, let the oppressed free is social.
He's mixing these things together. He's showing healing is multifaceted
is every aspect of our lives that affects beyond just the physical.
(38:00):
And this is all, all that is to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor,
which is the Jubilee, right?
So I think it's God's vision for all of creation to be reconciled back to God.
I think that's clear in the Bible for us to experience shalom.
Shalom meaning peace and flourishing, right?
Right.
And when we do this and we're reconciled back to God
and we can live harmoniously together in God's presence,
then we're experiencing what God has intended
(38:23):
and we're catching those glimpses of heaven.
And if we're drawing this way, man, we're going to see healings all over the place.
We see relationships restored.
We're going to see emotions healed and bodies healed, spirits healed.
We're going to see the whole thing, communities being reconciled.
And I think that's needs, that's needs to be our ministry.
We need, I think, I think our country, our church, we need a lot of healing.
(38:47):
Yeah. A lot of healing.
And I think we need to make some intentional effort to seek God in healing.
Yeah.
I love it because I think that when we start to view healing,
whether physical, emotional, spiritual, mental as a witness,
I think that there's something so powerful about that.
And I think that we can look inward and say,
okay, how and where have we experienced healing in any aspect of our lives?
(39:11):
And then how do we make the miracle or the healing that we're seeking selfless?
Because I think it's very easy to become,
oh, I'm sick, I want to be well, or they're sick and we want them to be well.
And then it's like, oh, they're healed.
Awesome.
It's every healing is a witness.
Every experience with being one, seeing a glimpse of the reconciliation
(39:33):
that the Lord has for his people is a witness, is a testimony.
And so how do we take these moments, even when they're messy,
and even if we don't receive healing,
how do we look at these things as a testament to the reconciliation
that the Lord has for us down the line?
It's good.
So I think it's good.
I mean, I think healing is our witness.
I think not being healed is a witness.
(39:55):
I think because we need to be pursuing and understanding a deep understanding
of what the Lord is doing in our lives and how he intends to use that to demonstrate his glory.
And sometimes that is in the physical act of being healed.
And sometimes it's not.
And I have been wrecked up down in sideways by the ministry and the life
(40:16):
and the testimony of people who are sick and don't receive healing
or who are living in it because there is something so admirable.
Yeah, there's a resilience to that.
That is so special and that communicates something so intentional
and so beautiful about the Lord and what true and genuine faith
(40:37):
and submitted us, submitted life to the Lord looks like.
The same way that there is beauty in someone who sought healing and something
and found it and went on to go live this life that was a testament
of the goodness of God and the healing of God.
And those are going to reach different people who need to hear those testimonies.
And I think that's what's so special about how the Lord uses all of our stories.
(41:00):
So I just want to end with like, if you guys are listening
and you're in a place where you need your faith built up
and you have listened to us and grown enough relational equity between us.
Believe me when I tell you, I felt bones move two days ago.
I felt bones move.
(41:22):
I experienced not me being healed, but someone being healed
and I was just happened to be there praying.
It was great.
So if that can encourage your faith a little bit, God is good.
God is powerful and he works and he wants healing
and his healing is holistic and multifaceted.
So please pray for that and pray for our church too.
That will be that witness of healing in the world.
(41:44):
Yeah.
All right.
Well, this like every other episode been brought to you by the School of Theology
and Ministry at Life Pacific University.
We'll see you guys next time.
See ya.
Do you remember the little John scene in The Chosen?
(00:02):
No.
Oh, it's little James, not little John.
What the heck?
Lil John.
Lil John, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Remember when Lil John got healed?
He was like, what!?
OK!
That's exactly what happened when Lil John was healed.
Welcome to TikTok Theology, a podcast that tackles the major
trending topics on social media that concern the Christian
faith.
I'm Meagan.
(00:23):
And I'm Steven.
We know you can't form a theology in three minutes or less,
but those videos can identify current issues.
TikTok will give us the prompt, and then we'll do a deep dive.
Thanks for joining us in this exploration.
Hello, friends.
Welcome back.
Today's episode, we had a little bit of a flip-flop.
(00:43):
For all the good and right reasons.
Yes.
We came in fully intending to have this conversation that I
won't say yet, because it'll probably end up on another season.
Steven and we're talking, and we really felt like,
based on some experiences that Steven had recently and the
direction of our lives and things that we think it might be
really poignant to talk about, can we be healed through prayer?
(01:04):
Yeah.
And kind of some theological conversations around healing.
So we're super excited about that.
Obviously, because this is kind of built from a personal
experience that Steven had, it kind of partners a little bit
with conversations on social media, but this did come from a
personal experience.
But on social media, I feel like we've seen like the concept
of healing is not new.
Right.
And maybe people aren't going to social media and being like,
(01:26):
well, can God heal?
Right.
But I feel like everywhere you look, there are either courses
being sold or mindfulness seminars or people who are in
this like spirituality space, new age space, whatever.
For sure.
And everyone is trying to be healed.
I don't think there's anybody who gets sick or in some way,
right?
Experiences something that needs a physical healing, right?
Or a mental healing and doesn't pursue a way to be healed.
(01:49):
So it seems that one, people care about healing and two,
implicitly people believe in healing somehow.
Yes.
Whether it's naturalistic or I'm going to, you know, use
essential oils or something like everyone's kind of looking
for a way to experience healing.
I also think that there has been some controversy in like,
love them all, but like Pentecostal or charismatic spaces
(02:09):
where people will go up and have these like healing nights or
whatever.
And then we see people getting like pushed down or people
getting slain in the spirit or all these things and people
having negative responses to that or people seeing something
of that filmed on social media and being like, this is foolish.
This doesn't make sense.
You're pushing a person like what's going on.
And so for memes made out of like, stuff like that.
(02:31):
Yes.
So they let the bodies hit the floor.
I've seen them in a bunch of time.
A whole bunch of things, right?
And so it's, I think that this is good to have a conversation
of what we mean when we're talking about healing.
That's not necessarily, oh, I'm going to shove you to the
ground and the Lord is going to heal you as you fall, right?
But that there is an order to this and that there is a
theological understanding to this.
(02:52):
So we're super excited to kind of touch on this topic today.
Yeah.
To get into it, I am so excited about it because I experienced
something that I've never experienced before this past Sunday at church.
And so I want to somewhat document it.
Okay.
So we somewhat put this out there for life.
Yeah.
We record these episodes a couple of months beforehand before
they're released.
(03:12):
So today is August 13th.
Yes.
And this happened on August 11th.
It's happened two days ago.
All right.
This is pretty cool.
Not going to lie.
All right.
He said not to flex, but this is sick.
I was at my church, Pasadena, Foursquare, and we were leading worship.
And I did firm foundation with a tag of great R.U. Lord.
Good combo.
It's a good combo.
Immediately a good combo.
(03:33):
You know what I mean?
People do this one a lot and it makes sense.
The cords work out really good and it's just, it's just good.
You're like from a practical stance.
Yeah.
It's just solid, solid stuff.
Yes.
So I'm leading this and we're doing great R.U.
Lord and it's kind of ending the worship set and the sermon and
everything is going to move on after that.
So we're at the bridge, right?
(03:55):
Yeah.
Great R.U. Lord.
And the bridge, as you know, really dope.
It says, all the earth will shout your praise.
Our hearts will cry.
These bones will sing.
Great R.U. Lord.
And as we were singing that, there was this woman in the congregation.
It looked like she was in her sixties.
She was thin.
She looked relatively healthy.
Like she wasn't like sickly looking or anything like that.
(04:17):
And she started feeling pains in her back.
As soon as we started singing, your bones will sing and come to find out.
This woman has had some real chronic back issues dealt with scoliosis and
different things and has been prayed over for a long time.
And she's been in this community for decades and she's just a good,
legitimate professional and a strong congregant there.
(04:37):
Well respected.
Everybody knows her.
So during that part, I didn't see this, but she went into the foyer,
which is at the back of the church or like you get Californians like to
pronounce foyer foyer foyer.
And so she went back there and one of the people at the church, one of the elders,
he's an older man, probably in his sixties as well.
His name is Steve.
He was praying for her.
And I didn't know.
(04:58):
So we finished the song and went off stage and then I went to the back of the
sanctuary and stood with my wife.
She was taking photos.
She was pulling a Megan Lord for the service.
So I was just standing with her as I was standing this other lady from our
congregation named Lisa was like, Hey, Steven, go back there and pray for
them.
I was like, what?
And she was like, yeah, go pray.
And I didn't know what was going on.
(05:18):
And so I looked over.
Yeah.
I just, I just went and I looked over and Steve was praying over this lady.
When I walked in, she was bent over her arms were stretched out and she had
them on the wall and Steve had his hand on the middle of her back and she was
breathing really, really poorly.
Like if you've ever slipped a disc in your back, have you ever done that?
(05:40):
No.
So it's like when you're a disc actually starts touching your nerves and it's
like you tighten up and you can't really breathe like constricts your breathing.
So you're like, you're breathing really fast.
And so she's breathing like that.
She's crying and she's actually convulsing her hands are like shaking on the
wall.
So she's just like, she's just breathing like that and just like really,
really in pain.
And so I went over there and I put my hand on top of Steve's like right
(06:01):
below her neck over her spine area.
And then so we were both praying.
And so we were praying for a couple of minutes, praying for healing, you know,
declaring certain things saying like, you know, God, this person, I'm going to
keep her anonymous just in case she doesn't want to share it.
You know, she's yours and her mind, body and soul is yours and your mighty hand
can come in here and heal her body.
And we were just praying like this, Steve's praying in tongues.
(06:23):
And so is she.
She's a real deep Christian too.
So she's praying to it through her tears and stuff.
And after a few minutes of this, I literally felt her spine move under my hands.
And so did Steve.
Some bones shifted to the left.
It was like, have you ever felt like a bone popped out of place and then it popped
back into place?
Yeah, I've done that with like my hip before.
(06:44):
It was like that.
It looked like that was happening.
Yeah.
And so after that happened, she started breathing like normally.
And then she was like, did you guys feel that?
And we were like, yeah, we did.
And then she stood up straight.
And then she was just like breathing off, finishing like weeping still.
And then me and Steve were just like, we surround her and praying for her.
And then she was just like, she was like, I've had back problems forever.
Like this is something that's happened so long.
(07:06):
We're just kind of like talking to her and you're like, wow, man, God's good.
She went back into the service and where we all went back to the service.
And then she sat in their pew and she was like straight up sitting there.
And then afterwards, man, she was so overjoyed.
She was just like telling, she told the pastor of the testimony and she was like,
she was like, tomorrow I'm going to go, I'm going to go to the doctors.
I'm going to get an X-ray to see about my back because she was like,
(07:27):
I've never stood this straight in two decades.
And she was just like rejoicing and hugging me and hugging Steve.
And it was such a joyful situation.
And Megan, I have never, I've prayed for people for headaches and migraines
stuff like that, gone away.
I've never prayed for someone and felt the bones move.
Oh, that was crazy.
(07:48):
Oh man.
That'll get you.
It was, it was so not just inspiring, but like, man, God is good.
Like, like, like me and Steve ain't nothing to do with that.
Like that was God wanted to demonstrate it.
And I'm just blessed that I was able to be part of this miracle and, and,
and her body is healed.
And I'm curious to see what, you know, the doctor said if it was,
if it was like a forever healing or if it's just like, you know,
(08:09):
in that moment, whatever spasm, back to the spasm she was having or tightness
or whatever, maybe that got healed there in that moment.
But like, I was like, wow, that's, it's incredible.
Isn't that great?
Yeah.
Man.
So after that, I texted you and I was like, Hey, I really want to do a topic
on healing because it's a difficult topic for a lot of people because I think
with this experience happening to me and, and you know me, like a scholar is
(08:31):
pretty skeptical about bunch of stuff.
Like, like, yeah, we're going to, we're not going to just like take things
and just be like, yeah, that sounds real.
Yeah.
Um, you know what I'm saying?
Like, but when you are just believing Jesus and something undeniable like
that happens to an analytical brain like mine, I'm like, Oh snap,
we got to record his junk.
This is, this is not a, this is not a drill.
(08:52):
So if you're out there like struggling with just the truth of it all, homie,
I just felt bones move under my hands two days ago and you can take me for my
word or not, you know, but I wanted to record this because whenever I'm
struggling with my faith years from now, I can listen back to this and remember
how real this situation is.
You know, what we should talk about is not if healing happens because it does
(09:15):
because I think we're just going to assume it does.
I've experienced it.
You've experienced it.
Yeah.
And think about it just logically.
We're talking about the God who created all things out of nothing with his words.
You don't think he can heal one of his children.
Yeah.
It just doesn't make any sense for that not to happen.
Even if you're a free will, it's like me and we want to say, Hey,
(09:37):
you get the consequences of your response.
He's not going to interfere.
No, being a free will theorist doesn't mean he won't interfere.
Right.
It means he won't interfere against your will.
He's a gentleman, right?
But like you have three people gathered praying for her healing and God wanted
to show up and do this.
But we also know there's situations when people don't get healed and there's
(10:00):
situations when they do.
What does that look like?
I think we have to talk through a theological framework of what healing is
like. How have you experienced it in your own life?
I haven't necessarily been a part of the physical prayer that has healed
somebody in front of our eyes.
Right.
But I remember like going to camp and hearing like all kinds of stories of
like healing and stuff where some girl came up wearing glasses and then she
(10:21):
lost her glasses like day two and had been like really struggling because she
was like, now I'm up here and I can't see anything.
I can't do anything.
I can't participate in any of the games, whatever.
And the staff had been looking like I was on staff and everyone had been
looking for these glasses.
Like no one was sure where they went.
And when 500 kids are at camp, it's like a needle in a haystack, right?
And then come to the final day, everyone's giving their testimonies and
(10:43):
stuff and she goes up and she was like, literally God healed my eyesight.
She was like, by the end of the camp, she was seeing just fine.
Like, like literally no longer left the mountain, like never got the glasses
back, no longer needed the glasses, stuff like that.
Or it's like I had a spiritual gifts class with Amy Selby, my freshman year.
And we were supposed to, one of the assignments was to like pray for
(11:04):
physical healing for yourself or someone else.
And I was having this weird thing with my eyes where they were like turning red,
like bright red, like all the time.
Like I put eye drops in, nothing I could do.
Like I don't know why I'm sleeping.
Like all the things they were like and chronically red.
And I was like, what is going on?
And that had happened for like a couple of days and this assignment came and I
was like, okay.
So I had like prayed over my own eyes, right?
And then did all the things and then woke up the next morning and they were
(11:27):
no longer red and they were never red again.
And so it's like, oh, so I've had experience like personal that I've
prayed over myself and I've received healing.
I've had those two and I've prayed over like, you know, headaches and migraines
and stuff like that and certain things like that.
But like not felt like physically someone be healed.
People I think will be much more skeptical about hearing even these stories.
(11:47):
Like where we believe they're healings, but they're like, eh, you could have
just been getting over it anyway.
You know, like it was going to go over and this and that.
Like they could, they could say that kind of stuff.
I mean, that doesn't change our beliefs, but like, bro, there's three of us
and we felt these bones move.
Yeah.
It's also a good conversation though, because this girly had not been healed
probably for the times, the 20 years that people have been praying over her.
(12:10):
And so how do we hold intention the 20 years that she prayed for this thing?
And it didn't happen.
This random day in her older age and there was healing.
So how do we hold intention?
This didn't receive healing and then did or want to, but don't.
I think it's all good conversations to have, especially because I know people
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who family members not being healed or them personally not being healed is a
piece that shakes their faith down to this deconstruction where they're like,
well, if you were good, you would have healed me.
And so I think healing is a very sensitive topic that can and has a lot of
power, especially over our faith journey and our faith walk and our belief
(12:51):
and trust in the Lord.
And if we don't have a good understanding of it,
good theology, then this will shake every aspect.
When someone we know gets sick or someone, or we ourselves get sick or
experience, you know, that kind of suffering.
Like how do we reconcile a God that we say is a healer,
but that there's not always a physical healing every time that we ask.
(13:11):
So I mean, I guess the, the one thing that we can see is healing is not
transactional.
And that's actually pretty important because people do think that they
think if they have enough faith, then the healing will occur.
As if there's a transaction to be had.
I give the Lord prayers.
He gives me healing.
Yeah. But that's not how it works.
It's literally not how it works.
(13:32):
Right. The fact that sometimes you get healed,
sometimes you don't show that it isn't.
And there's scriptures that talk about it.
For instance, in John nine, when Jesus heals the man that was born blind,
this is what it says.
Now, as Jesus was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth and his disciples
asked him, Rabbi, who sinned this man or his parents that he was born blind?
(13:53):
Jesus answered, neither this man nor his parents sinned,
but this happened so that the works of God would be displayed in him.
And then Jesus heals him.
So there's a couple of things that happened here.
One, he wasn't inflicted because of sin.
Correct.
We can think broadly because of the results of the fall.
Yeah.
That we're in a fallen world.
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So like maybe that's what it was, but it wasn't no particular sin that he or
his parents did.
Right.
But then secondly, so that way God's power would be displayed through
this guy.
And so why is he being healed?
For God to be glorified in this moment.
So there isn't a transaction that this guy did.
He didn't just like, you know, do something special this day that got him to be healed.
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But it was so that we got to be glorified.
And so I think one of the big issues is a lot of times Pentecostals are too
triumphalistic.
Right.
We only want to focus on the times were healed, all the victory, all the good
stuff.
And then we want to rephrase or rethink or think about stuff that like when things
don't work and we want to either ignore them or talk about them in a way that like
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it's almost like gas lit.
Like that didn't really come up with a reason why.
Yeah.
Like, oh, well maybe, but you didn't have a faith or you didn't, which is right.
All the sad, horrible things that people have heard.
Unfortunately.
That too.
Or, or like, no, I am healed.
I just, I just need to believe it.
Oh, right.
So they'll keep going, you know, like there's a bunch of things like that I think are just
fundamentally damaging and they show us not having a worked out theology on healing.
(15:22):
Yeah.
I think one of the main and best ways that we can look at healing, theologically, is
to think about it through an eschatological lens.
Eschatology, the eschaton is, is when Christ returns, make it all thing new.
And this is this new age, what is intended of us when we're living in the new Jerusalem.
So if we have an eschatological view, we realize that people are healed and reconciled
(15:46):
spiritually, emotionally and physically, not because they did something special,
but as a natural consequence of drawing close to God.
Yeah.
If you are drawing close to God, you're going to be healed in many ways.
Yeah.
Now, what if you're not healed physically?
Well, think about what a healing is a healing.
That's just delaying the inevitable of death.
(16:10):
Yeah.
And then what happens there?
Your ultimate healing.
When you rise with Christ, you are beautiful, glorified self, like you're a glorified body,
a spiritual body that is without hurt, without need of healing.
Yeah.
That is the end result.
That's the T loss.
That's the, that's what we're actually striving for.
Right.
(16:31):
This woman that got healed Sunday, she got healed now, but that healing is not final.
Right.
She and us and we all will die at some point.
Right.
And so we have to remember what a healing is.
This is the best framework that I could see.
Healings are a foretaste of what is to come.
(16:52):
Yeah.
Because we are not fully healed until we are standing in the presence of Christ.
Right.
But when we're standing in the presence of Christ, we are made completely whole.
Right?
Yep.
So being made whole now, that is healing that's happening now, but that's also us experiencing
a foretaste of what is to come, catching a glimpse of it.
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It's like, if we can just imagine heaven opening up for a second and we can just see in there,
and we just catch that glimpse and just catching that glimpse right there, heal us in that moment, you know?
Yeah.
That's, that's what that is.
And so when you start thinking about it that way, you start seeing healing is the thing that happens when you draw close to God.
We start catching glimpses of what is to come for us.
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Yeah.
God is working things out in our lives emotionally, spiritually, in our relationships, in our communities.
He's healing all sorts of stuff.
And you know what else he's healing in that?
Our bodies.
And so we will end up finding healing, even physical healing, because God made us mind, body and soul.
Yeah.
But is it always the case that are, that we're physically healed?
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No.
I mean, Paul had a thorn in his side his whole life.
Some people speculate wildly what that might be.
And I think there's, it's kind of pointless to speculate.
The best speculation I think is maybe that he struggled with blindness.
Cause remember he was struck blind at Damascus at the end of some letters.
He's like, now I Paul, right?
This in my own hand and big letters.
(18:17):
And cause he had scribes.
He had a bunch of scribes writing for him.
And so the idea is maybe he was, he has struggled with blindness.
But again, sheer speculation.
We have no idea, but he never was healed from whatever that thorn inside was.
Right.
Right.
And that was a question that he had and he had to figure it out theologically.
Yeah.
You know?
Somehow him not being healed was a testimony.
Yeah.
(18:38):
You know?
Yeah.
One of the most powerful things there is a scene in the chosen.
And if you guys haven't watched the chosen, I highly recommend it.
Now listen, I'm an artist and sometimes some Christian media is cringe.
It is not good.
However, the chosen is so dang good.
It's ridiculous.
Highly recommend it.
I would agree.
I've been disappointed by Christian media a lot in my life.
(19:00):
And I have, I'm shocked by how good it is.
Okay.
So there's this one scene.
This is the most touching scene.
Like I definitely was crying during the scene.
I couldn't even help it.
This is in season three.
There's this actor who plays little James.
The actor is disabled in real life.
And in the show, he's disabled.
He can't walk fast and like there's certain things he has a disability.
(19:22):
And it's a scene where Jesus goes and sends out the disciples two by two to go perform healings and miracles and stuff.
And he sends little James out and James confronts Jesus and says, like, how did you send me out to go heal people when I myself am not healed?
Why can't I be healed?
And I'm already like, oh snap.
This is like, oh, that's real talk right there.
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So Jesus says little James, precious little James, I need you to listen to me very carefully because what I'm going to say defines your whole life to this point and will define the rest of your life.
Do you understand?
To know how to proclaim that you still praise God in spite of this, to know how to focus on all that matters so much more than the body to show people that you can be patient with your suffering here on earth because you know you'll spend eternity with no suffering.
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Not everyone can understand that.
How many people do you think the father and I trust with that?
Not many.
And then James says, but the others, there are so much more stronger, better at this.
And he says, James, I love you, but I don't want to hear that ever again.
When you pass from this earth and you meet your father in heaven where Isaiah promises you will leap like a deer, your reward will be great.
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So hold on a little longer and you discover yourself finding true strength because of your weakness.
When you do great things in my name in spite of this, the impact will last for generations.
That I think is powerful because he's not saying James, you're not healed because you didn't have enough.
He's not saying any of that stuff.
He literally said, I am trusting you to be the witness to the world of God's goodness, even when your body isn't healed.
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To be able to preach that message even when he himself is inflicted.
I think this is what kept Paul going.
He had the thorn in his side and he was able to preach even despite that.
And so I thought that was just so powerful.
Chosen is the bomb.
You guys need to watch that.
And that is a much more mature look at healing.
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You know, like healings happen almost seemingly haphazardly.
And they're not like this thing of just like, if you pray enough for this and that, I think the thing is we should pray for healing.
We should yearn it.
We should seek it.
But above all, we should not be praying for healing.
We should be praying for God's will to be done in the situation.
Because what if little James being not healed became the witness that some people needed in order to follow Jesus?
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What if there was other people that were dealing with various disabilities and stuff?
Now James was able to reach them because of that.
Yeah.
It's where we get to the fine line that we have to make sure that we're drawing where we're not seeking the...
I've heard someone say somewhere that we're not seeking the gift more than we're seeking the giver.
We're really praying for healing, praying for any aspect of a miracle of any kind, right?
(22:18):
Yeah, we're praying for those things.
But at the heart of it, we should be praying and asking for more of Jesus.
For more of who God has called us to be and how we're supposed to live.
Because I think that it's very easy even for Christians to be like, I'm guilty of this, right?
I've done all the right things.
I followed you.
I've lived this life for you.
You owe me a healing.
Yeah.
You owe me this miracle.
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You owe me this, right?
And that's when I think it's very easy for this to become a transactional relationship where it's like,
I'm seeking the healing more than I'm seeking the Lord.
The healer.
The healer.
And so I've had to even frame the way that I've thought of these kinds of things,
of miracles, of blessing, of all the things, right?
To make sure that I'm seeking the Lord first.
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That like, Lord, I want to know you deeper.
I want to know you more.
If that accompanies these physical healings, if it accompanies miracles, that's awesome.
But if not, I have to remember who we're seeking.
If we're letting our faith be shaken when we don't see the miracle,
then we aren't actually seeking the Lord.
We're just seeking a way for us to be more comfortable.
And like I said, just realizing that drawing close to God, you are being healed.
(23:24):
It might be your emotions.
It might be your spirit.
Yes.
It might be your heart.
It might be, yeah, I know people who were sick for a very long time,
and they prayed for healing and it wasn't a physical healing,
but eventually they found this great peace
in operating in their illness or in their struggle, where...
And then that became a testimony in others.
And then that became a testimony and it changed people's lives or whatever.
But yeah, I think with these conversations,
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it's important to really show that, yes, the Lord is a healer,
but nowhere in scripture is it explicitly stated that
every affliction we ask for healing for on this earth,
we will receive healing for.
You know, when we are healed physically and emotionally,
we're experiencing a small part of an ultimate healing
that will take place at the eschaton.
Right.
So, healings are essential to what we're doing.
(24:08):
Right.
They are signs that point to God's eschatological aim of renewing everything.
Yeah.
Right?
And everything will be renewed, but we just have to see them as that,
as like sign points, as like little graces that happen that we experience.
Some Pentecostals and Charismatics
vest so much interest in the present moment of healing
that they lose sight of the ultimate eschatological healing,
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not just what you said, which was so important,
you're losing sight of the healer.
Yeah.
But you're also losing point of his main ultimate goal.
Yeah.
The eschatological meaning of ultimate healing.
Right.
So, healings happen on God's timing and for God's purposes.
And they are transformations that occur when we encounter God at the point of our need.
Yeah.
But sometimes our needs can get met in other ways.
(24:54):
Mm-hmm.
God giving us the grace to pursue regardless of what it is.
Yeah.
The Bible says God is gyra.
He's provider.
Right.
It's a physical healing.
Sometimes it's not.
And so, what happens when God doesn't heal?
Have you come across this at all?
Yeah.
My grandma died when my mom was, when I was like two.
(25:15):
And obviously had like a very painful and whatever thing on my mom and my family and all the things.
And my mom has talked about it since and is like,
we prayed relentlessly for her to be healed.
I had the same experience.
Right.
And it's like my mom was a pastor and like my grandpa was a pastor and all these people
and my grandma was like a pastor and like was so involved in church and like so many people loved her
(25:38):
and so many people prayed for her and spoke unfortunately like words that were like,
she will be healed and all of these things.
And then she wasn't.
Yeah.
And that was devastating.
Of course.
And it was like, oh, like this person who was in church and had everybody and their mom praying for them and all of these things.
And it, she still died.
Yeah.
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And there's so many people who've lost a parent or lost a loved one or all these things and prayed for healing.
When I was 20, my mom died of cancer and I was in college.
Every aspect of this was devastating, completely devastating.
The most crucial time of my life.
That was difficult.
And I remember we were in her hospital and she was being taken off of like her breathing and stuff.
(26:21):
And like she was going to die and we were all there huddled and I was holding her hand and we were praying like crazy.
I was praying and I had belief the entire time that she would be healed.
And then I just saw it slip away and I saw her line just like stop and then she died.
And it wasn't until after that I started weeping, just bawling.
(26:43):
Yeah.
Because she wasn't healed.
Yeah.
And it was so hard.
I never, I'll say I never questioned God's realness, but I questioned God's love.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
He seemed cruel.
And I remember I had a good friend that helped me through that situation, my friend Wesley.
Man, I was, it was tough and there's not a lot of, a lot of words for all that, you know?
No, there was never a word.
(27:04):
And still, I still don't like talking about it very much.
And so there was that experience and then some of them are even like just kind of more egregious.
Like I remember I was on a mission trip.
I was taking my youth to Nashville and we were ministering to some of the homeless communities there.
And they did a really good thing where they would have a dinner for homeless people and invite them all there.
And it wasn't a like, hey, let me throw a sack of food at you.
(27:28):
And then just like, and say God bless you and then leave.
They created whole situations and environments where they invited the entire community to eat and break bread and have like nice potluck meals with the church community and everybody there.
And they like had, they made the whole sanctuary like that.
So it was really, really a cool situation.
Yeah.
We were out there and one of, not one of our leaders as a church, but one of their leaders that was volunteering for the organization, he recently became a Christian and he was on fire.
(27:53):
And on fire in a good way, but then also in a dangerous way.
So he had a lot of zealousness, man.
So he was like, we were praying for people.
He was zealously like talking about, you know, like, hey, let's God bless you this and that.
And just like going around, man, we went to the park.
There was a guy in a wheelchair and he was like, hey, let me pray for you.
And the guy's like, uh, okay.
(28:14):
And then he's just like, he's like, I'm gonna pray for your healing.
You're going to be healed from this wheelchair because God desires for us all to be healed.
And so you prayed for him and I'm there with all my youth.
And then he prayed for him and he tried to pull him out of his wheelchair and the guy fell on the floor.
Oh Lord.
And then we helped him back up and I had to like take my youth and just be like, hey, this guy was working on his own accord and not from God's calling.
(28:39):
God did not call him to do that.
He just had a zealousness and just had like a, an immature faith where it's just like, God desires for us to all be healed.
So we can just like declare it now.
God desires for us all to be healed and that is going to come.
But in this day and age, in the midst of this world that is, that is afflicted by sin, we might have to have a thorn in our side.
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There may not be that and this person may not have been willing or anything and that you're just calling it like as if you had some kind of a superpower or something.
So this hurts real bad in these situations.
This guy didn't have the tools to work through what it means.
And then after that, I don't even know what happened to his faith. I had to talk to my students and be like, hey, when God calls us to pray for healing, God wants to do something.
(29:22):
It's God's timing.
That doesn't mean, you know, like I had to talk about all that with them and they understood it.
I guess, you know, some people entered denial.
Some people lose their faith.
You know, we don't have appropriate theologies of suffering or lament or the idea that like we might lose people like I did, like your mom did.
What is our theology that can help us through that?
And so I think the eschatological theology is helpful here again.
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While God desires for all to be healed, like it says in Exodus 23, 25 to 26, ultimate healing occurs at the eschatal when Christ returns.
And so it's important for us to believe and pray for present healing, but we must trust that God's healing may come in the age to come.
May come in the next age.
Healings that happen in this age are not ultimate anyways. They're there to glorify God, to be a witness to the world.
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And they're a beautiful faith building thing.
Boy, did it build my faith when we pray for that woman on Sunday.
But that's not her ultimate healing.
She will be ultimately healed.
And so will I and so will you.
And that's a good thing.
So healings that happen, they point towards an ultimate healing that takes place at the eschaton.
And I think we really need to function for that.
One, we do absolutely need to have the courage to pray for healing.
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And have the belief that God can heal us whenever God wants to.
But then also have the trust that God will heal us when it is right for us to be healed.
And that's a big difference.
That third one, a lot of Pentecostals are missing, I think.
Yeah, I think it's hard.
I mean, even if you're sick, if your family's sick, whatever, it's hard to reconcile the sovereignty and timing of healing.
(31:01):
And timing of God's healing power when it doesn't feel like it's coming when you want it.
Or when it's coming, when it makes sense.
Because I think that's, I think a lot of issues like, well, it makes sense for God to heal, right?
Like I'm a Christian, I love the Lord.
Like, doesn't that make sense?
Like he should heal me.
And I think that there's so much, there's just so much more to it.
(31:22):
But we're in a fallen world still.
We are in, right.
So let's talk about God is about healing the whole person.
Like what all does that mean to you?
Like, you know, we talked about mind, body, soul, but like what about even beyond that?
Like God healing communities and societies and whatnot.
What does that mean to you?
I mean, the entire ministry of Jesus was to bring healing, wholeness, restoration.
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And if you dig into those aspects, which is what's cool about studying the Bible, right?
When you dig into the miracles and the levels of what Jesus was doing,
we can see things like when he heals like the lepers,
or when he healed the woman with the issue of blood, right?
That it went even a step beyond the physical healing in a lot of spaces.
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That for instance, the woman with blood, right?
When she touched his robe and she was healed,
that wasn't just the physical healing of the bleeding.
It was a reinstatement into society.
It was a healing of her societal role.
It was a reconciliation of her to her community,
because when you were bleeding in that age, right?
(32:31):
You were outside the city gates because you were considered unclean.
It was more than just a physical healing for her.
And then it was, you know, most of Jesus's healings were followed up with,
you know, either go and sin no more or go and tell people about this, right?
There was a combined witness and there was a combined spiritual healing as well.
A command for holiness. Correct.
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So Jesus healed holistically, or he would heal physically,
but then also healed spiritually and calling people to sin no more
and to be in this holy, to live in this holy and righteous manner
that they weren't living before and healed societally,
where they were welcomed back as members of society,
maybe when they were in outcast before. That's a big deal.
And that was a huge deal.
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So I feel like from what we've seen, even how Jesus was a healer,
there are so many levels to healing that go just beyond a physical healing
and that even physically being healed brings in more holistic healing,
societally, spiritually, mentally is a big one,
especially now that we've actually started having conversations about mental health and stuff is like,
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the Lord is healing people mentally as well.
And so it's, I think, clear that Jesus as the Christ like example in scripture,
but also the representative of the heart of God is that,
that he desires to heal us holistically and that even physical healings lend to
a larger holistic healing viewpoint.
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That's not just about a physical aspect, but what it brings in.
So it's like you're being healed physically and then you're going to tell people,
now you're a testimony, which is a larger healing of reaching more people
and being more, you know, spreading the kingdom and increasing the kingdom
and all that kind of stuff.
And we should be for those efforts too. Yes.
So like reinstituting people into a society. Yes. That's important.
(34:16):
And so, you know, let's, like, I know this is going to get into politics a little,
we're still in the season, right? Yeah.
But think about racial reconciliation, you know, healing between groups, right?
Which we had that great episode earlier this season.
That great conversation. Yeah.
Efforts in social and educational reform when people need healing in that sense.
So gender equality, people need healing in that sense too.
(34:39):
But then what about like reintegrating ex-cons? Right.
Right? Yeah.
Like, so there's prison ministries that a lot of people are drawn to
because these are human beings that made bad mistakes, might be mentally ill.
They might have a lot of issues, but isn't it, shouldn't we be for their healing?
(35:01):
And that doesn't mean that they don't have restrictions.
Like depending if they like, what if there was like a sexual assault or something like that,
like that, you know, obviously they can't be with certain groups or whatever,
they can't be trusted in that sense.
But we should be for their healing, for their reintegration in a society
to the extent that there is safety, right?
And I think sometimes people are so ruthless, they're brutal.
(35:22):
Like where I, for an eye, you get what you deserve, but like,
I think God's heart is probably for justice, of course,
but a justice that is not just retribution, but a justice that's remedial
or justice that's trying to bring people back, right?
Think about marginalized people being accepted into a church community.
And what way are they marginalized?
(35:43):
Is it racial? Is it heritage type things?
Even if it is something that we deem a sin, you know, transgenderism, LGBTQ kind of issues or whatever,
they're marginalized, but how about being welcomed as human beings
and loved and cared for as human beings?
Not affirmed in their sin, just like Jesus didn't affirm the woman at the well's sin.
He didn't affirm the fact that he was a human being,
(36:06):
but he affirmed her as a person and there's a big difference there.
There's a lot of healing in that.
And the general striving for just a peaceful society, you know?
I had a friend, he was struggling with homosexuality for a long time
and he was really like, didn't want to tell anybody or anything.
And he confessed it to me, we were on our way to an art show
and he was just like, he felt comfortable with me for other various conversations we had in the past,
(36:29):
and he just felt so much shame. And I was like, you know what?
Before you even go, God loves you.
And when I said God loves you, he started weeping right there in the car.
And that just demonstrates that he felt so much shame
that he didn't even feel like God loved him.
Some healing needs to take place right there, you know what I mean?
(36:51):
And so just like showing love and acceptance in their Imago day,
acceptance in there just being a person in this world, right?
That we need to do as a church.
This is a healing of society and social structures.
We can be for these things.
Communities are healed and we are truly reconciled
when we fight for justice and lives of those who suffer, right?
(37:14):
I don't even think we need to think of a balance of like,
I'm going to balance truth with compassion.
No, you'd be 100% truthful and you'd be 100% compassionate.
That's not even needing balance. You need to do both, right?
And so, you know, this is what we need to do.
Jesus came, he called us.
He said his ministry was to bring good news to the poor.
(37:35):
He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives
and recovery the sight to the blind to let the oppressed go free.
And don't you like how like sight for the blind is a physical healing?
Release of the captives is social, you know, let the oppressed free is social.
He's mixing these things together. He's showing healing is multifaceted
is every aspect of our lives that affects beyond just the physical.
(38:00):
And this is all, all that is to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor,
which is the Jubilee, right?
So I think it's God's vision for all of creation to be reconciled back to God.
I think that's clear in the Bible for us to experience shalom.
Shalom meaning peace and flourishing, right?
Right.
And when we do this and we're reconciled back to God
and we can live harmoniously together in God's presence,
then we're experiencing what God has intended
(38:23):
and we're catching those glimpses of heaven.
And if we're drawing this way, man, we're going to see healings all over the place.
We see relationships restored.
We're going to see emotions healed and bodies healed, spirits healed.
We're going to see the whole thing, communities being reconciled.
And I think that's needs, that's needs to be our ministry.
We need, I think, I think our country, our church, we need a lot of healing.
(38:47):
Yeah. A lot of healing.
And I think we need to make some intentional effort to seek God in healing.
Yeah.
I love it because I think that when we start to view healing,
whether physical, emotional, spiritual, mental as a witness,
I think that there's something so powerful about that.
And I think that we can look inward and say,
okay, how and where have we experienced healing in any aspect of our lives?
(39:11):
And then how do we make the miracle or the healing that we're seeking selfless?
Because I think it's very easy to become,
oh, I'm sick, I want to be well, or they're sick and we want them to be well.
And then it's like, oh, they're healed.
Awesome.
It's every healing is a witness.
Every experience with being one, seeing a glimpse of the reconciliation
(39:33):
that the Lord has for his people is a witness, is a testimony.
And so how do we take these moments, even when they're messy,
and even if we don't receive healing,
how do we look at these things as a testament to the reconciliation
that the Lord has for us down the line?
It's good.
So I think it's good.
I mean, I think healing is our witness.
I think not being healed is a witness.
(39:55):
I think because we need to be pursuing and understanding a deep understanding
of what the Lord is doing in our lives and how he intends to use that to demonstrate his glory.
And sometimes that is in the physical act of being healed.
And sometimes it's not.
And I have been wrecked up down in sideways by the ministry and the life
(40:16):
and the testimony of people who are sick and don't receive healing
or who are living in it because there is something so admirable.
Yeah, there's a resilience to that.
That is so special and that communicates something so intentional
and so beautiful about the Lord and what true and genuine faith
(40:37):
and submitted us, submitted life to the Lord looks like.
The same way that there is beauty in someone who sought healing and something
and found it and went on to go live this life that was a testament
of the goodness of God and the healing of God.
And those are going to reach different people who need to hear those testimonies.
And I think that's what's so special about how the Lord uses all of our stories.
(41:00):
So I just want to end with like, if you guys are listening
and you're in a place where you need your faith built up
and you have listened to us and grown enough relational equity between us.
Believe me when I tell you, I felt bones move two days ago.
I felt bones move.
(41:22):
I experienced not me being healed, but someone being healed
and I was just happened to be there praying.
It was great.
So if that can encourage your faith a little bit, God is good.
God is powerful and he works and he wants healing
and his healing is holistic and multifaceted.
So please pray for that and pray for our church too.
That will be that witness of healing in the world.
(41:44):
Yeah.
All right.
Well, this like every other episode been brought to you by the School of Theology
and Ministry at Life Pacific University.
We'll see you guys next time.
See ya.
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