Inclusivism & the Extent of Salvation

• Okholm & Phillips, Eds., Four Views of Salvation in a Pluralistic World
• Sanders, Ed., What About Those Who Have Never Heard?
• Amos Yong, Beyond the Impasse

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Do you know what I wonder sometimes?

(00:01):
Like how bad was my German accent?
Cause I don't even know.
You're like, to me it was not, it was nothing.
Yeah. I can't remember having an accent.
Hey, if you're a listener in TikTok,
the ol' gene you happen to know,
Steven, when he had a German accent,
please comment down below what that sounded like.
No, I was talking to my sister and like,
she didn't know either. Like we didn't, we didn't know.
You didn't like any home videos or anything?
Nah, we're too old for that.

(00:22):
Too old for a home video?
I mean, they were possible, but they were like,
it was kind of expensive.
It wasn't like easy on your phone and stuff like that.
No, I agree.
You need like a vid camera.
A video camera, yeah.
Yeah, and we were super poor.
Oh, fair enough.
So we don't have any evidence.
You're like, I cannot prove I had an accent.
No.
I believe you.
I had two of, like I had to learn English.
Yeah.
So I had to have had an accent for a little while.

(00:42):
At least a little bit.
And so I'm really curious what like little first graders
were like, you know, like.
Yo, what is this guy?
What are you looking at me?
I'm like, yeah, I'm Stiffon.
You know, it's like doing my German accent.
It's a dog. Who is this?
Welcome to TikTok Theology, a podcast that tackles the major

(01:02):
trending topics on social media that concern the Christian faith.
I'm Meagan.
And I'm Steven.
We know you can't form a theology in three minutes or less,
but those videos can identify current issues.
TikTok will give us the prompt,
and then we'll do a deep dive.
Thanks for joining us in this exploration.
Hello, friends.
Welcome back.
Hello.

(01:23):
Well, today we're going to be tackling inclusivism and the extent of salvation.
Oh, right.
Another great topic.
I feel like we've been hitting some really excellent topics this season,
not to pat ourselves on the back because we pick these topics
and social media, pick these topics or whatever.
But I've enjoyed this one so far.
Yeah, I like it.
Obviously, Gen Z cares a lot about, I would say, being inclusive as a whole.

(01:49):
I think especially like not necessarily how we define it
theologically, which we'll get into.
But I think this conversation has popped up on social media a lot
because of the nature of the world that we live in,
and that we are in a, like we want to be tolerant of everybody.
We want to be inclusive of everybody.
We want to be accepting of everybody.
That's kind of where we're at.
Like in any...
Plurless world.

(02:10):
Yeah, like in any way that you present yourself or you feel that you are
or what you believe, like everybody deserves quote unquote to be accepted
for the things that they do believe, all of that kind of stuff.
Okay.
And I feel like Christians can come across as very exclusive,
which has either been received poorly on a worldly side that says,

(02:33):
we need to accept everybody for who they are exactly as they are.
And then almost in that way, it sounds kind of counter to what Jesus says
about how I died for everybody and all of these things.
And so I've seen discourse where people will comment on Christians,
you know, posts, TikToks, whatever, their belief systems
and be like, well, doesn't your God, don't you say that you're like,
God died for everybody and loves everybody.

(02:54):
So why don't you accept everybody, love everybody?
Why are you like trying to create your own Christian club?
You see that a lot.
Yeah.
You know, and so I feel like that's kind of really, really common in the discourse
between Christians together and then especially non-Christians who are interacting
and being like, well, now you're just trying to keep people out.

(03:15):
And you're not as inclusive as your Bible claims to be.
Yeah.
We have inevitable exclusive claims to salvation in our theology.
And so the idea is that they can make us look judgmental.
Oh, yeah.
And completely graceless and completely, and some people do,
they get to the point where they're mean about it and it becomes like a shun

(03:36):
and a judge like, I'm better than you kind of situation.
And it has gotten there.
I've seen the extremes on that side.
And so that's why we're having these conversations today.
Yeah.
Cause like, what do you do?
Like we do have those claims.
Like we do believe Jesus is the only one who died for our sins.
Correct.
So how do we juggle and respond to the world that we're trying to evangelize

(03:58):
and to bring with us while also holding these exclusive salvation claims in a world
that's saying like, oh, well, good people, good people will go to heaven.
I'm good enough to go to heaven.
Right.
Like those kinds of stuff where they're like, oh, well, why would God send me
to hell if I'm a good person?
You know, that kind of stuff, especially when in conversations about like the
afterlife, what happens after death, like those kinds of things, these topics

(04:19):
once again come up of like, well, who's invited then?
Yeah.
Well, if my good outweighs my bad in my life, then why shouldn't I go to heaven?
You know, these kinds of things.
And so that's what we're going to kind of tackle today.
The theological understanding of inclusivism, exclusivism, all that stuff
and where Christians should fall on that, on that line.
When we talk about it, you'll see there's certain things that are a little less
settled than I think people assumed theologically.

(04:42):
Yeah.
So we're going to get into some of that.
The big theological question.
So we know Jesus died for our sins, but what does that mean?
How far does grace extend?
Yeah.
Like that's really the question.
Like we know he died for us.
Like, so right off the bat, when we talk about different views or whatever,
we're not even entertaining that there's other ways to salvation.

(05:03):
Right.
We're saying salvation is only through Christ.
But then the question is how far does Christ's grace extend?
Right.
Beyond just explicit prayers that we'll make of accepting Jesus into our heart.
Right.
It is only Jesus who saves, but that's he saved people that may not know
or may not want it or something like that.
Like, oh yeah, that's the question.

(05:23):
Oh, I've seen those conversations about like, and I think they get asked
even like when you start to get kind of, when you kind of start to understand
theology like this, even as a kid, I remember wondering like, well,
if like babies died, right, what happens to babies because they didn't have any
cognitive ability to accept Jesus because they were so little and small.
Or mentally handicapped or mentally handicapped friends or like any,

(05:45):
any stuff like like any aspect or like people who've quite truly lived isolated
and never ever ever heard the name of Jesus.
Like what falls in that?
Like where do they go?
You know, yeah, that's the admissions and in Missiology.
That's the 1040 window problem.
You heard of that before?
No, but it sounds like one of those math problems in school.
I was very good at.
Yeah, not a math problem.

(06:07):
So it's a term used in Missiology to describe a region of the world that
spans across Africa, Middle East Asia is basically between the 10 and 40 degrees
north of the equator.
Okay.
So like that's the 1040 window in the world.
Got it.
It has a huge number of people groups that have had little or no exposure to Christianity.
Right.
At all.
That makes sense.
And they're often referred to as unreached because there's no self-sustaining

(06:30):
indigenous church in there at all.
And it encompasses the several major world religions.
So there's like Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and even like animistic traditions.
Yeah.
So basically many or maybe even most of the folks there have no concept of Jesus or
the Bible at all.
Right.
Or they have distorted concepts of them.

(06:52):
Right.
Because all other religions have been demonized or made illegal or they don't understand that.
Or even if like, let's say there's like a kid that grows up in Islam and literally
everyone they know is Muslim.
Right.
Right.
Then they don't have a Christian witness.
There's no Christian witness.
Right.
There's only a Muslim talking about what Christianity is as a heresy or something.

(07:13):
Right.
Right.
Right.
So the question is, do these folks automatically go to hell?
Those people who have never even heard the name Jesus said aloud?
Mm-hmm.
Or how about those who are who have only heard the witness of the gospel in an extremely
distorted way?
So it's no luck.
So it isn't actually the gospel.
Right.
So they haven't actually heard the gospel.

(07:34):
Yeah.
Hearing about Jesus from a different perspective.
Right.
So are they innocent in the 1040 window and what happens to them?
So that's kind of like the big, big question.
Right.
Yeah.
It's always one of those existential questions that you're like, oh my gosh.
Yeah.
And there's not a totally concluded answer within theology.
I'm going to talk about three big views.
Yeah.

(07:54):
And I'm curious where you lie on that.
Like when we talk through them, but because I think sometimes we'll say we're exclusivist,
but we'll actually hold to some kind of inclusivist theology.
Right.
So I'm curious of what you hold to it.
Where we find out we are by the end of this?
Yes, exactly.
So the three main views are called exclusivism, inclusivism, and pluralism.

(08:17):
So the first one, exclusivism, aka particularism.
It says that Christianity is the only true religion.
Now, right off the bat, that doesn't seem controversial.
Like if you're a Christian, you believe it's the only true religion, right?
Right.
And it also says one can be saved only through Christ.
Again, that's not even controversial.
Like Jesus is the only one who died on the cross.

(08:39):
Buddha, Muhammad, none of those guys died on the cross, right?
They were seen as different kind of figures.
Buddha seen as a great figure that could lead to liberation, right?
A liberation of the self.
And Muhammad was seen as a great prophet, but not even as divine.
Like so they're not even viewing in the same way that we are.
We're saying that Jesus is God incarnate who died for our sins in our place, right?

(09:00):
Right.
So there's a totally different thing.
And there's some scriptures that seem to back this up.
So you have like John 14, 6 that says,
I am the way, the truth and life.
No one comes to the Father, but by me.
So here's Jesus talking.
So what this says is that salvation only comes through Jesus.
That seems to be the undisputed, exclusive is Christian claim.

(09:23):
Yes.
That salvation can only come through the one who did die for us.
Correct.
Does it mean that there isn't a sense or level of inclusivism?
So let's, let's keep thinking about it.
So there's acts 412.
There is salvation in no one else for there is no other name under heaven that has been given
among men by which we must be saved.
Again, it just says and undisputedly that Jesus is the one, the way we are saved.

(09:45):
Then John 5 28 29.
Do not be amazed at this for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out.
Those who have done good will rise to live.
And those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
So that is talking about a judgment.
And then it's talking about how they're coming out to hear his voice.
Jesus's voice.
Yeah.

(10:06):
So, but again, so all of this seems to be talking about only Jesus saves.
He's the only one who can, but that doesn't really answer a lot of the questions that we just asked.
No, it doesn't.
It doesn't answer.
What about children?
Yeah.
What about innocence?
It's essentially doesn't answer that question.
It answers the vehicle of salvation, the vehicle for salvation, not so much.
Exactly.
Yes.
Yes.
So what about innocence?

(10:27):
And we're talking about children, mentally handicapped and possibly even does it extend beyond to the unreached?
Like it doesn't even answer that.
Yeah.
So that's that's the one thing that's the exclusivism.
So we want to use exclusivist claims and we have the one that I think is foundational.
Correct.
And that is that only Jesus saves.
Yes.
So the next one is pluralism.
So you have adherents like the theologian John Hick.

(10:48):
He was like a major proponent of this.
And this basically says that all religions are the same at the core and thus all will be saved as long as you have a legitimate faith.
Is this kind of like a universalist kind of?
No, there's I want to say there's a difference between pluralism and universalism because I think that's confused a lot.
Okay.
So let's let's speak specifically about pluralism here.

(11:10):
Okay.
And this is particularly not a Christian claim because universalism is a Christian claim.
It might be wrong, but it is actually your universally saved by Jesus.
Right.
Oh, got it.
Right.
Yes.
This pluralist claim is saying other religious traditions can lead to your salvation.
So that means you can be saved without Jesus, which is heresy.

(11:33):
No.
See, see that's like so like I would go so far as to clearly say that this pluralist view is not a Christian view.
Correct.
And so even though John Hick is a Christian theologian that hosts his view, this is not a Christian view.
Only Jesus can save.
It's not just a legitimate faith.
The example that they'll use is I don't know if you ever heard this before about paraphrase it a little bit.

(11:54):
The five blindfolded people in a room and there's an elephant in the middle and then they're told,
Hey, can you reach out your hand and just tell me what it is described to me what you're feeling?
Yes, actually.
You heard this?
Yes.
So one person touches like the legs and is like that's like a tree.
One person touches the tail and is like that's like a snake.
One person touches the trunk is like it's like a hose or whatever, you know, like and then one person touches the ear.

(12:17):
It's like a floppy thing.
I don't know like and so the point is they're all getting just a piece of it.
So they're none of them are wrong, but none of them are completely right.
They're they're all getting towards a reality that is deeper than what it is.
And so this pluralist view basically says all those religions are getting towards a reality that is deeper than they can actually define.
So they're all getting towards something that's right, but they're incomplete.

(12:40):
And so religion shouldn't claim to be complete and all you need is legitimate faith because they all lead to the same thing.
Right.
Another image that's used all the time for pluralism is like if there's a top of a mountain, there's several paths that lead to the top of the mountain.
Yeah.
And so whatever paths, as long as you're faithfully going on it, you can go to the top.
Those are legitimate whatever like it's like that.
There's various politicians figures that are Christian pluralists.

(13:05):
Now this is what would be a Christian pluralist because I said pluralism isn't a Christian view.
Right.
So what is a Christian pluralist?
A Christian pluralist would be someone who believes in pluralism and believes that their path is Christianity.
So they believe they affirm the legitimacy of other religions, but their particular path is Christianity.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So problematic in every way.

(13:26):
Yeah.
That's a problematic view.
Yep.
So those kind of like the two sides of it.
So the third view has a lot of variants and it's the inclusivist view.
So I'm going to say what it is broadly and then talk about all the variations within it.
We'll break that.
Yeah.
So there's a bunch of adherence that hold to inclusivism like it goes all the way back to origin.
And there's like the reformers, Wingly, Clark Pinnock Catholic, Carl Rainer, like there's a bunch that hold.

(13:51):
I've read.
Yeah.
And I've read their stuff.
A ton of people hold to inclusivism.
Yeah.
But there's lots of versions of it.
So they're saying different things of it.
Yeah.
And they basically say this, you can only be saved by Christ.
True.
That is the fundamental statement, but Christ's how vific truth may be available to people of other face or of no face or like it may be available to others beyond Christianity.

(14:14):
And so that doesn't feel right, but it does answer the innocence question.
Like what about people that are innocent?
Right.
It answers the 1040 window question.
There's some scriptures that go with it.
So you have like Philippians 2, 10 through 11 that says, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Now, some people will say, oh, that just means that everybody's going to eventually acknowledge it.

(14:36):
Yeah.
But if you're acknowledging that Jesus is Lord, isn't that what entails salvation?
Right.
So some people will interpret that passage as like that means they're saved.
Right.
It could be Romans 11 32.
God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
So that seems universalist.

(14:57):
Yeah.
And then 1 Corinthians 15 22 for as an Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Again, that seems universalist.
So here's the thing.
To a small degree, I would say everybody is probably in some way, inclusivist, even exclusivist that are want to make exclusivist claims.

(15:17):
They will make caveats for like children, innocence.
Right.
Yes.
They'll say like, yeah, only Jesus says only Christianity is a true religion.
People who die before when their babies and stuff like that, they're still in this age of innocence.
So they're saved in some other way by the faith of their family or by just a grace that extends beyond or whatever.
Well, that right there is an inclusivist statement.

(15:38):
So there is a minimal level of inclusivism that probably everybody is.
Yes.
You see what I'm saying?
Yes.
So I think people will feel very comfortable saying only Jesus saves the people who are innocent that can attain salvation without necessarily making the prayer of salvation or anything like that.
Our innocent children who are not of an age of understanding and mentally handicapped people who are not in an age of understanding.

(16:04):
They'll probably say that.
Yeah.
Now, when it goes beyond into the 1040 window, some people might even make exceptions beyond that.
So I think in a minimal sense, a lot of people, a lot of us are inclusivists in the maximal sense, like the most sense.
It means everyone will be saved and that is universalism.
Right.
So, but the reason why this is a Christian view is because they're saying only Jesus died for everyone, but he did die for everyone.

(16:29):
Everyone will actually end up being saved.
Right.
It's not pluralism.
Right.
Because it's not about the inclusive aspects of other religions.
You're not having Hinduism saving you.
You're not having Buddhism save you.
There's no other religion or anything like that saving you.
It's only Jesus who's saving you, but he happens to save everybody.
I do think that's a wrong view, but it is a Christian view.

(16:50):
There's a big difference there.
Yeah.
No, for sure.
So if you want to use technical terms, pluralism would probably be viewed as heresy because it goes against the primary Christian belief and that's specifically that there's salvation beyond Jesus.
Somehow pluralism, heresy.
Universalism wouldn't be considered heresy.
It would be considered maybe heterodox other than orthodox, not your typical orthodoxy, not your typical right Christian beliefs or whatever, but it's not heresy because only Jesus is saving.

(17:15):
Right.
So that's kind of like your technical term of what that might be.
Now there's lots of different universalisms that I want to talk about because some of them you might even agree with.
And so there's several of them that aren't even actually universalist.
They use the word universal in them, but they're not universalism.
Right.
Like, so for example, one of them is called universal conversion.

(17:38):
This one says, the world will be successfully evangelized.
That's not universalist.
That just saying that everyone will hear the gospel and make a decision.
What about all those who already died?
You know what I mean?
Right.
Like they have judgment already.
So that's, you know, it's not universalist.
Right.
It's kind of like saying, you know, the passages that talk about like to the ends of the earth and stuff like that.

(18:00):
So it's okay.
Now this one right here is an interesting one because you probably hold to it.
I do because all free will theists actually hold this.
It's called universal atonement.
Correct.
And that basically says Christ died for all humans, not just the elect.
Right.
So what Calvinists have is a view called limited atonement.

(18:22):
Yes.
That Jesus literally only died for the elect.
For the elect.
Well, universal atonement, which is what anybody who believes in free will believes,
is that he died for everyone.
And now it's up to us to make the decision to accept that.
Right.
So that's not universalist because people can still reject salvation.
Yes.
It's just, it's just saying free will.

(18:43):
Yes.
Right.
So that universal atonement, you see the word universal in there.
It's not universalism.
Right.
He, he, he, he.
Another one is called universal opportunity.
And this is not again a universalism.
It just basically says everyone in their lifetime will be given opportunity to accept Christ.
It might be through nature or something else.
Yeah.
This is not universalist because it implies still.

(19:05):
That there's a choice.
That there's a choice.
Mm hmm.
Right.
Yeah.
And so people will say no, like it doesn't imply that all will be saved.
There is a choice.
So this is probably something you've heard people say.
They probably pointed to Romans and said, hey, you knew God's word through the nature.
So you have no excuse, right?
The problem with this, this kind of is like a general revelation,

(19:25):
a lot of legitimate theologians that hold to it.
Yeah.
Carl Bart, one of my favorites rejected general revelation.
He said that you can only know God through a special revelation from God because like,
when you look at nature, it doesn't actually prove God.
It just proves nature.
Yeah.
It might prove that there's a creator or a maker, like maybe, but that doesn't prove God.

(19:47):
It doesn't prove Jesus Christ.
Right.
It doesn't prove, you know, incarnate Christ that died for your sins.
Right.
It doesn't prove that you can't get to that.
Right.
Because if we're saying that we're coming to salvation through Jesus,
then nature goes beyond what nature goes beyond a general revelation of nature's pretty.
There is a creator, right?
Because you have to jump, make the jump somewhere,
but in general revelation from creator to savior.
Yeah.
To incarnate God.

(20:08):
Yeah.
And that's a little bit of a jump.
It is because it's not mere belief in a creator that brings you salvation.
That brings you salvation.
Because all the demons in the devil hold to that.
Like true.
Yeah.
So it is the acknowledgement of Jesus' lordship.
Right.
Right.
And so this brings to the next view that's similar to it,
and, but it actually preserves the special revelation component of it.

(20:29):
And that's called universal explicit opportunity.
And so it basically says everyone will explicitly hear the gospel of Jesus.
If not on earth, they'll be given a second chance in heaven,
maybe a cosmic vision before they die.
Maybe we don't know exactly how it is,
but they will all have a decision to make.
Interesting.
So this is not a universalist view because people have choice.

(20:51):
Once again.
Right.
Yes.
But it's basically saying we don't know exactly how it turns out,
but we know the character and the nature of God.
Yeah.
And we know that God does not send people to hell willy-nilly and for funsies.
Yeah.
You will go to hell if you reject God.
Actively choose.
Yes.
Right.
So that means you have to have a legitimate active choice.

(21:13):
Yes.
And so you'll make it at some point in your life,
somehow, some way you'll make that choice explicitly.
Yeah.
So when they say universal and all of these different things,
they're more saying applies to everyone as opposed to universalist view.
Right.
Got it.
Right.
So the last three views are actually universalist.
Now we're here.
Now, now we've arrived where people will all be saved.

(21:36):
So this one right here is universal reconciliation says,
Christ's death reconciled all humanity to God.
And so that's the verse, you know, for all, for as in Adam all, all die.
So in Christ, all will be made alive.
Right.
Yeah.
And so it basically says people need to be told that they have been saved,
not that they can be saved.

(21:56):
So second Corinthians 5 18 says, all this is from God who reconciled us to himself
through Christ and gave us that ministry of reconciliation.
I think that's a weak interpretation of that passage.
I would agree.
We're supposed to reconcile to God and to others and that's our ministry.
That's absolutely true.
But it doesn't mean, oh, we've already been reconciled and we have to acknowledge that.
Yeah.

(22:17):
Like that's, I think that's a leap.
I don't think the passage is say that.
I must agree.
But I think this would make more sense to the other passage in Adam all die.
So Christ all will be made alive.
Right.
But I don't, I don't think it necessarily means that and it's given the rest of scripture.
It doesn't seem to be the case.
Jesus has a whole bunch of passages where people depart from me.
I never knew you, you know, and like, and like, like Jesus, the one who talks about

(22:39):
how he acknowledges that he will die and rise again and then not everybody's going to
right pick that.
Yeah.
And they talk about the paths and stuff like that.
So it's a little, you know, that's, it's a little sketchy.
Like given the hell is why the path is given the whole biblical witness.
I don't know about that.
And so the next one is universal pardon and this says God will pardon all people.
If it seems unfair, it tells you to remember the parable of the laborers and the vineyard.

(23:03):
Remember the laborers, one person came in the beginning, got a hundred bucks for the
end of the day, the next one came halfway through, got a hundred bucks, one came an hour
before closing, got a hundred bucks.
And then they were like, that's unfair.
And they were like, Hey, didn't I keep up my end of the bargain?
I told you what I was going to pay you for your work.
And he's like, Yeah, so there you go.
The way people usually interpret that parable though is that people can get saved at any

(23:24):
stage in life.
Yeah.
Right.
So like you can grow up in the church, you can be on the cross next to Jesus, right?
And you can still attain salvation, not necessarily that everybody will be saved.
Do you know what the problem with these two are?
The problem with both of those.
And the reason why I think they are definitely theologically wrong,
because there's one universalist view that I don't agree with, but could be right.

(23:45):
Yeah.
That these two are not.
Yeah.
And the reason why is because they do not preserve free will.
Right.
Both of those, you just die and God is reconciled.
And you're good.
You don't have a choice.
You are saved regardless of what your choice is.
So if you don't get the consequences of your choice, you don't have free will.
Yeah.
Here people are not getting the consequences of their choice.

(24:07):
Right.
They are not able to choose God or not choose God.
Right.
Right.
So that's, I think they're definitely wrong in the way that they're spoken.
I feel like those, even for like someone like me, who's like a logical person,
more of like a justice person in general, is like, well,
then what's the point of a Christian living their life, aligning to scripture,
trying to pursue a Christ like life.
When this view almost argues that I could have frolicked and lived in any way that I

(24:31):
wanted to.
Gone to heaven anyways.
While I was on earth and gone to heaven anyway.
There's no accountability.
Yeah.
So for me, that's problematic in the sense of what's the point of the entirety of scripture,
of the calling to live like Christ, of the calling to be above,
like to be different than the world.
If I was going to end up, if all roads lead to Rome, you know.
Yeah, totally.
So I think that's a problematic.

(24:52):
I don't think it makes sense.
This is the one universalist view that does make sense.
I can understand where we're coming from with this.
So this, this last one here, and it's called universal restoration.
And it was actually put forward by origin, the church father.
So like it's a super duper old view and it was talked about again in Rob Bell's book,

(25:14):
Love Wins, which was a little controversial.
Oh yeah.
And this is essentially his view.
Rob Bell is controversial.
Yeah.
He says a lot of good stuff and he pushes boundaries and certain things and stuff like that.
But I like him, but also.
Cautiously.
I think I can read him critically as a Christian.
Yes.
So, okay, one day all will be restored to its right place.
However, there will be temporary punishment and refinement like purgatory.

(25:40):
Interesting.
No matter what.
So basically this view says hell is purgatorial, not final.
It is a thing where you can also be refined to essentially what the view says is if you die
and reject God, you will go to hell.
If you die and accept God, you'll go to heaven.
Those who go to hell though, that doesn't mean that's the final destination because God will

(26:02):
wait as long as he ever will need to.
He'll wait a million years for you on your own regard, on your own free will to choose him.
He's a gentleman and he'll wait.
He'll never force it, but that's that.
And so sometimes the hellish afterlife is maybe what's needed for a person to come to themselves

(26:23):
and accept Jesus finally and give over to Jesus.
And so that's a, it's called a purgatorial view of hell.
It's called universal restoration.
The reason why this one does work is because people are getting the consequences of their sin.
And they are making a choice.
They're making a choice.
The thing that this modifies is our understanding of hell, not our understanding of salvation.

(26:45):
You know what I'm saying?
So like it's the same thing Jesus saves.
You will get the consequences of your choice, heaven or hell, like eternity with Christ or hell.
Hell is not eternal here is conditional based on your choice.
Well, that's something that we're going to end up talking about even later this season.
It is our views of hell.

(27:06):
Well, the three main views of hell that are in Christianity that are out and about.
So we'll touch on that a little bit deeper later, but that's interesting.
I feel like purgatory.
Is that not a, is that not a Catholic?
Who holds that?
Somebody holds that consistently.
Catholics do hold to purgatory.
However, it's not exactly this view because most Catholics will believe that people go to hell

(27:29):
if they're wicked and that's eternal, but the people who are not, they were like in the faith,
but like not sanctified.
They weren't fully sanctified.
They'll go to purgatory to complete the sanctification process.
Got it.
Okay.
So for this purgatory is held temporarily if you can make the decision to leave.
And for Catholics, purgatories are refining.

(27:49):
You shouldn't.
So it's not purgatory.
It's purgatory yule.
Okay.
Got it.
So like, it's a refining process.
Got it.
Okay.
So it's not really the Catholic view.
Got it.
It's Origen's view, but yeah, we'll disentangle that a lot more.
Later.
Later.
Reviews on hell episode.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
It's an interesting belief.
So I don't think it's right because I think there's a whole bunch of passages when Jesus

(28:12):
saying like, apart from he never knew you, like when Jesus talks about hell, it's kind of like a
final place.
Yeah.
Like the weeping and gnashing of teeth.
It doesn't seem to say that you can spring back.
However, this view is not even heterodox really.
Yeah.
It retains all the orthodox elements that are significant.
What it modifies is hell.

(28:33):
And if you look at like our concept of hell, hell exists, but it modifies the concept of it.
And so, and that's not part of the primary Christian doctrines that we find in the creeds.
Right.
That like exactly the nature of hell.
Like just that hell is a separation from God.
That's for sure.
But like then beyond that, that's not really said.
So I don't think it's right.
And I think this is important to make a point is like there's a difference between

(28:55):
theologically wrong and heresy and even heterodoxy.
Right.
Yeah.
So we can say, you know, pluralism in its broad sense is actually heretical.
Right.
Universalisms in the ones that reject free will me as a free will theist, I will say they're
heterodoxy, but I think they're wrong.
They're heterodoxy, but also just flat, flat wrong.

(29:16):
Whereas this one, I think is wrong, but has merit.
Yeah.
It actually has merit.
So what do you think about all of these views?
I mean, honestly, I kind of think that I'm always impressed at how many views there are
to things.
Yeah.
Honestly, I feel like as someone who's grown up in the church, I was on social media,
all the things, everything seems so black and white all the time.

(29:37):
Like where if it's like, oh, you grow up in church and your pastor holds to a view,
it's either that or nothing.
You know, it's like no for nothing.
But when you kind of break it down, this is why I think theology is important and why
I like it so much is because there's so many beliefs and thoughts that have been thunk over
the last, you know, thousands or so years.
These thoughts been thunk.

(29:58):
Yeah.
Like over, like for the last, you know, thousands of years of people really trying to reconcile
how things work and how this kind of stuff works.
And so I think that honestly, I think if this, if your theology, if you're trying to find like
how close you can get to the line and keep your salvation, that's a different, that's a problem.
I think everything comes down to the heart of why we're thinking the way that we are.

(30:20):
You know, like if you're on, if you're someone who loves the Lord and you have friends or
something who don't and you want to know like honestly and genuinely like, what can I do?
Like how much time do I have?
Like what's the, what's the method in which I can get like to my friends or whatever in
your community or if you're of a mission or heart, how can I get to reach the unreached

(30:41):
people, that kind of stuff.
Like answering the 1040 question, like, which is a tough question.
That is a noble and brave and, you know, godly endeavor to try and do that kind of stuff.
But I think, and, but I think if you're approaching your views of inclusivism or
the extent of salvation in a way, because you want to live the life that you want to live.
Right.
And then you want to see how close you can get to the line while still getting to go to heaven

(31:05):
in the end.
Yeah, that's right.
Then I think that you're trying to play a game.
You're trying to play a game there.
There's trying to be boundaries here.
And so I think that if you're genuinely really wrestling with how far grace goes and how far
salvation goes, I think we can all settle from at least this episode is like grace and salvation
comes through Jesus Christ alone.
Yeah.
And we, we are rock solid on that one.

(31:26):
Yeah.
And then for me, I don't know.
I'm like, I want to, I want to quiz you.
So I'm going to go through these views and quiz you.
Oh Lord.
Okay.
Ready?
So exclusivism, I'm assuming
you're making the exclusivist claim that only Jesus saves.
Yes.
But you're also saying grace extends beyond at least to a small degree.
Yes.
Like to the innocence.

(31:46):
I would agree with that.
You agree with that.
Okay.
So there's that pluralism, right?
Wrong.
No, wrong.
Wrong.
For me.
Flat wrong.
Flat wrong.
I agree.
All right.
So the inclusivist views, universal conversion that the world was successful be evangelized.
I mean, that's, that's like biblically they say that.
It's biblically true.
Biblically true.

(32:06):
A lot of people have died though.
So it's like, it's, it's kind of a pointless one to me.
Yeah.
I mean, like it's kind of one of those that like, yeah, they say that, you know, one day every
knee will bow every time we'll confess if you interpret that as universal evangelism, then okay, cool.
Yeah.
Okay.
Universal atonement.
Jesus died for everybody, not just the elect.
Oh yeah.
Absolutely.
100%.
Absolutely.
All right.
Now here are the two that I'm curious about.

(32:28):
One of them is the universal opportunity, the general revelation one.
Yeah.
I've heard so many, I've heard people say that.
Yeah.
And I don't know.
I feel like I'm someone who I think the jump from a creator.
Yeah.
I can't get with that is to, to needing a savior is a jump that I'm not comfortable making.
Agreed.
So I'm barding on that.
I agree.
I'm not, I'm not, I don't like that.

(32:48):
I'm not there.
I'm not there.
How about universal explicit opportunity?
Everyone will explicitly make a decision somehow.
I don't, I'm to me it's not particularly compelling.
I granted I'm not someone who could, I don't know if any of us have, can say what is offered
to us when we die.
Yeah.
Like I guess to none of us can technically say.
No, we can't.
Well, we all know for sure that we all die and that we're not asked again before we,

(33:14):
you know, like, I don't know.
Like technically we can't say, but I also hesitate to build a whole theology around
something that we actually don't.
Right.
No, I mean, this maybe not building a whole theology.
Like, well, this whole theology of like,
yeah, of a tone of like salvation based on the fact that maybe even though and I would say,
I don't think anywhere in scripture points to us getting a second chance at the gates,

(33:37):
you know, at the pretty gates.
I mean, it could be any, any sort of way.
It could be a vision, dream or whatever.
Like I, I hold to this one.
I think and do you know why?
Good.
Not because I think of the like you'll definitely get a second chance.
What a little, but because I think you'll only go to hell if you reject Jesus.
I would agree.
That's why this view makes the most sense to me because like that's still an explicit

(34:00):
decision you have to make.
Right.
I don't think people are going to like reject Jesus by osmosis.
Agreed.
Or accidentally reject Jesus.
Oopsies.
Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
I think they will explicitly reject Jesus.
Right.
And so that's why I don't know how it works out.
I can't tell you how, but I do think people will have to make a decision one way or the other.
Somehow legitimately from the truth of who you are.

(34:23):
Like not by accident.
Sure.
You see what I'm saying?
Yes.
But I do understand.
I do question like then how that falls into the, if we're making the connection between
like children, people who can't like mentally handicapped friends.
Like that kind of makes sense to me for more of a 1040 window argument,
but what you're going to look at like a two year old and be like,

(34:44):
I still hold to the innocence thing.
Make the choice.
Yeah.
I hold to the innocence too.
Well, right.
So to me, I'm like, well, because then doesn't innocence technically also apply to people who've never heard.
Yeah. So well, the thing is I'm not saying the innocence will automatically go to heaven.
Like I'm saying the innocence will be given the opportunity to make the decision.
Even if they're incapable.
I think they'll be made capable somehow.

(35:04):
Like I think, I think somehow, and I don't, this is the mystery.
I think everyone will capable be able to make this decision without accident.
Like, like legitimately explicitly make the decision to accept Jesus or to reject Jesus.
I think I can, I can put that in a bank.
How it works out.
How it works out.
How it works out.
I have no idea.
Not my problem.
You know what I'm saying?

(35:24):
That I don't know.
But yeah.
But I think it gives us, it answers the 1040 window.
It still gives us the importance of evangelizing.
Sure.
You know what I mean?
Like, because we want to help people make that decision for Christ.
So would you say that that decision only applies to people who have those kinds of exceptions
and not people who've just like lived, laughed, loved their, their life the way they've wanted to.

(35:45):
And then they eventually, so like that only is relevant.
If they, if they live, laugh, loved and made an explicit decision, then that's theirs.
Okay.
But if they didn't make it.
So we would say the explicit decision arrives.
Somehow.
Post whatever.
No, it doesn't need to be post.
It just needs to happen somehow.
That's some point.
Like they're like, people say God knows the heart this and that.
Like it just, I, all I'm saying, all I'm saying is the decision isn't going to be by accident.

(36:10):
Sure.
It's going to be an explicit decision.
So that's why like, yeah, I don't like the way it was necessarily defined here.
But I think that view has merit in that sense that like, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
So I don't know.
What do you think about that?
I like it.
I mean, explained in that sense, I, I don't, I would agree.
That caveat.
Yeah.
It was a caveat for sure.
I would say absolutely.
I wouldn't hold to it if it was like you can live however you want and then you ask that

(36:33):
confirming question at the very end or whatever at some point, you know, but I do.
I mean, as someone who, I mean, as Christians who value grace and value like loving people
or who should value all those things, mercy, all that.
I think that there would be a belief that the Lord also values those things because
that's what we're called to.
Absolutely.
And then I believe that that would extend to those who in some way or another cannot make

(36:58):
that decision or haven't made that decision or struggle to make that decision based on
all of the caveats that we've given up into this point.
Yeah.
And I believe that that's part of the Lord and that it's one of those things that also
like I'd try not to get too tripped up in because I'm like, it's just not my job.
Like it's just not my job to police who receives.
We just got to be a good witness.
Yeah.
Like if you're a good witness and you love the people in your life and you reflect the

(37:21):
heart of Jesus and it's just really not your business whether or not they like pray for them,
do what you can to have relationship and push them in a direction towards Jesus and pray that
we all are together in eternity.
But yeah, I wouldn't get too caught up in whether or not they will or won't.
Yeah, it's good because that's not really hard.
It's not our deal.
It's not our deal.

(37:41):
It's not our business we're never going to know or we won't know this side.
We're hopeful and we prayerful, but like that's not we're not the judges.
No.
So okay.
Take off our judge hat.
Yeah, exactly.
The universal reconciliation, universal pardon when it rejects free will.
Are you rejecting those two?
If it all, if it rejects free will, I'm always going to reject.
I agree.
I agree.
So what about universal restoration?
What's your views on that?

(38:02):
I don't know how I feel about any purgatorial style.
Yeah.
Like I think that's always a hiccup for me.
If there's any extent of like purgatorial restoration or whatever.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Some of that theology is developed in the intertestamental period, second temple.
Like I understand where like it comes from, how people process it, all the things.

(38:23):
I'm not saying it's flat out wrong because once again, not sure, couldn't know, couldn't tell you.
A little iffy.
It's a little iffy for sure.
Like there's no explicit statements for me to be like, well, that's just not true.
Yeah.
But I also do think that there's enough throughout scripture to imply that like hell is not a holding
place, which we'll kind of get into a little bit later.

(38:44):
But like, and that your life on earth is the life that you live and the decision that you make.
Yeah.
Is here.
Yeah.
You know, I agree with you.
But again, I don't, I couldn't, I mean,
this view because it preserves free will and there is punishment.
Yeah.
I'm not going to say that it's immediately.
I mean, it's not heretical.
I don't hold to it.
It's not heretical.
I definitely don't.
It's a little hopeful even.

(39:05):
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
I definitely don't think it lines up best with scripture.
And yeah, we'll talk about that in the three views on hell one.
But yeah, so yeah, so I'm not going to, I don't think it's heresy.
And I think if someone holds it, it's not wrong, I guess for me per se, per se.
Yeah.
To me it is right, but it's not like, I agree.
You're not going to.
It's like not heresy.

(39:27):
So I agree fair enough.
Yeah.
I mean, okay, so we covered everything and so we see a clear distinction between pluralism
and universalism.
A lot of people mess that up in my students and I have to tell them all the time and people
just argue against universalism without having clear definitions of what that actually means.
So now there's a whole bunch.
But yeah, I think definitely stuff to chew on.

(39:48):
You know, when we're thinking about how should the church respond to these views?
Yeah.
There's one thought I wanted to say, one of my favorite theologians,
he's a little bit of a mentor to me too.
Yeah.
Amos Young, Pentecostal theologian.
Yeah.
He has several books where he has this idea.
He calls it the Christological Impasse because he's like really a missions guy.
Yes.
And he was talking about like, okay, if you're trying to do missions,

(40:10):
sometimes if you think about Jesus, except Jesus or don't accept Jesus,
you're at an impasse right in the beginning.
Like you can't really speak to people with those kind of like, are you going to know?
Like terms as you approach them.
But he said, if you actually take a pneumatological approach,
Right.
If you approach our dialogue with the spirit, then there's more inroads.

(40:31):
There's inroads to share the gospel.
You know, like you're going to get to, this is not just any spirit,
it is the spirit of Jesus Christ.
Like this, this is the Holy Spirit is one with Christ.
They're Trinitarian, right?
Right.
And Trinitarian relationship.
So like you will get to it, but his suggestion is that when we do missions and work like that,

(40:51):
maybe talk about and approach your own heart.
How is the spirit at work in this place?
Yeah.
Try to see that and then use that conversation.
You will get to Christ, but that could be a little more gracious and more gracious approach
to ministering.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
So what do you think?
What are some other ways that the church can respond in mission, you know, at home?

(41:13):
Yeah.
I mean, I think even I touched on it a little bit is like,
we need to do a heart check here and remember that issues of salvation and stuff.
Yes, they're sensitive, but it's like at the end of the day,
we all need to be pursuing a life that reflects the goodness of God that is evangelistic in
nature.
We should all want to be recruiting people into the kingdom.

(41:34):
Right.
And if we're doing our job, that's the job we've been given.
Yeah.
It is not our job to decide who goes to heaven and who doesn't.
Right.
It's not our job to be the judgment that they're facing on judgment day.
Like we need to remember our role.
Yeah.
As Christians, like a whole mess of these things could be true, could be not true, whatever.

(41:55):
But our job is to reflect the love of Jesus, to evangelize, to recruit people into the kingdom
so that they don't have to put like, we're not, it's not our job to play guessing games on people's
faith.
Yeah.
If we are ministering to people, if we are, if we are reflecting the love of Jesus,
if we're, that's what we got to do.
That is our job.
It's good.
Yeah.
I think it's been a good conversation.

(42:15):
I mean, I kind of got to leave it there.
Love, you know, witness and be a good witness.
Yeah.
And then God will take care of the rest.
That's the whole point.
That's the whole point.
Right.
So have our belief, have your belief about salvation.
That is good and right, but don't let your belief on salvation cause any rift between you and the
people that you've been called to reach.
Right.
Right.
I would say that's what, like, so don't let your, for you and the church and all of us,

(42:39):
Capitol C church, all of us Christians, like we've been called to make disciples of all nations.
It's good.
That's our calling.
That's what we're meant to do.
Great commission.
Great commission.
So let's not get caught up in the, in the, in the point where our salvation theology is
tainting our witness.
It becomes mean.
It becomes mean, which we've spent a whole episode talking about because we hate when people do that.

(43:03):
So this episode was brought to you by the school of theology and ministry at
life Pacific University.
It was great hanging with y'all for another episode.
We'll see you guys next time.
See ya.