April 22, 2025 • 38 mins
- Tomas Kulka’s Kitsch and Art
- Thorsten Botz-Bornstein’s The New Aesthetics of Deculturation
- Green & Felix-Jager’s The Spirit and the Sketch (forthcoming)
- Netlix's The Social Dilemma https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Was your family an Easter Bunny family?
(00:01):
Not really.
We're too Christian for that kind of.
I love God too much to mess with the Easter Bunny.
I don't think I ever had a bunny, but we did do egg hunts.
But also can we unpack why it's an Easter Bunny,
but the bunny brings eggs?
They're all symbols of life, of new life.
I know, but why I don't know.
But why isn't it like the Easter duck,
(00:22):
or the Easter goose or something?
I don't, I don't, I want to know.
I do want to know where that came from.
I'm going to look it up.
We must do some digging.
Why does the...
Why is it not the Easter chicken?
In Christianity, Easter eggs represent Jesus' resurrection
and his emergence from the tomb.
So we're actually doing tomb hunts.
(00:43):
Because these are not eggs.
They're tombs.
Little baby tombs.
Little teeny little tombs.
How do we tell the kids that they're picking up tiny graves?
That's what I'm saying.
So I think we should start the Easter chicken.
Agree.
Welcome to TikTok Theology,
a podcast that tackles the major trending topics on social media
(01:04):
that concern the Christian faith.
I'm Meagan.
And I'm Steven.
We know you can't form a theology in three minutes or less,
but those videos can identify current issues.
TikTok will give us the prompt,
and then we'll do a deep dive.
Thanks for joining us in this exploration.
Hello, friends.
Welcome back.
Hello.
(01:24):
Today's episode has a 25 cent word in the title.
It's the, uh, kitchification of truth.
Try to say that without cussing.
That's going to be hard to do.
He said, oh, that'll run you up a little bit there.
So what you may be asking,
we're going to unpack this big word for you.
(01:44):
But, um, when we're talking about why, of course,
why does Gen Z care is social media having this conversation,
right?
Kitchification, you might not be seeing that word in,
but don't fret.
It is there just not in the way that you think.
So we'll unpack the definition and stuff,
but kind of what we're unpacking today is like the kind of art
or information that we've seen from Christians,
(02:06):
where it's like an artist drawing white Jesus or some of the
corny Christian like movies and stuff that everyone kind of
clowns a little bit.
The entire left behind series, the whole thing,
like, which is kind of corn ball.
And we all kind of laugh at it and stuff,
you know, a little bit here and there of which,
which people have conversations on social media of like,
oh my goodness, the effects that these things have had on,
(02:29):
you know, Christian kids and stuff like that.
Um, so that's where the conversation is had on tick,
talking stuff.
I've seen people call on all of it, of kitchen,
all of it, but it seems like this kind of art or media of
some sort, when it presents these things that are not
necessarily biblically truthful or accurate,
that it's not communicating the truth and it's actually is
(02:51):
spreading to some degree misinformation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We might laugh at it as being corny and stuff,
but it actually does tie into some maybe harmful things like
misinformation about Jesus or Christianity and stuff.
So we're kind of going to get into that today and unpack
the kitchen of it all.
What happened is I read a really interesting book that I want
to kind of express a little bit that actually use this term.
(03:13):
It's also talking about misinformation, alternate facts
and how all of those things work together with kitsch.
And so it seems odd, but I think it's really interesting.
This idea of misrepresentations or misinformation is ongoing
and it's hard for us to even figure out how to deal with it.
Right.
Especially with like AI and stuff with AI, everything like
(03:33):
there's, there's so much going like we have so many narratives
going on and we don't even know what's true or not true anymore
and so tough.
So what this is and from me and my artist brain,
like I'm like, oh, I love this way the way they're talking
about here.
Yeah.
So let's talk about kitsch.
Woo.
So first let's define what kitsch is and then how this might
relate to truth and stuff.
(03:54):
So the term kitsch is an old term that artists have used for a
long time.
It goes all the way back to the art markets of Munich and
Germany between the 1860s and 1870s and it was talking about
works that were like considered cheap, mass produced, you know,
like little trinket type things.
(04:14):
You know what I'm saying?
Like we'll talk about like the bobblehead Jesus dolls.
You'll talk about like the little, you know, baby angel
ceramic thingies, you know, those kind of things.
So sometimes a little manger scenes that are a little
cutesy things, you know, oh yeah, Christmas, yeah, the
nativity scenes everywhere.
Yes.
So those are all your little all your shepherds and your
wise men, but the wise men weren't that, you know, all that.
(04:35):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
That's where it kind of comes from.
It's supposed to be like an unsophisticated taste, you know,
like they have popular appeal.
Thomas King, Kate paintings are like the oh yeah.
You know I'm saying we might hate some of you all might get
offended by this, but some people might call Bob Ross.
Kitch.
Sorry guys.
Sorry guys.
Sorry to the listeners who love Bob Ross.
That was not a happy which is all of us.
(04:56):
That was not a happy accident.
Yeah, you gotta love Bob Ross, but you gotta love him, you
know, even though and in spite of in spite of so the etymology
of the word kitch is probably from the German verb, veta
kitchen, which means to knock off or the cheap and put his
German to use, yes, put his half German to use right now.
Yeah, you should be nine a Deutsche get him.
(05:17):
All right, so over time the meaning of the term began to
expand beyond just art and it kind of talked about anything
that was excessively sentimental, you know, God, he like like
is provoking your emotions, even though it's like cheap or not
like real deep or whatever.
Yeah, so I feel like when you walk into like a house and they
have like live left love all over the place like a home movie
(05:40):
like, you know what I mean?
I love me a little Hallmark movie.
Yeah, but it's like the same thing every single time.
Yeah, what kind of raining, you know, I'm saying stuff like
that snowing all that perfect anything that seems to be merely
there to entertain rather than to provoke thought right.
You know what I mean?
No, for sure.
So kitch has produced pleasure.
(06:00):
People like it, but the idea here is that this pleasure is like
an empty or imitative pleasure.
Like it's like a counterfeit emotion that is producing.
Sure.
It's like having lustful thoughts instead of like a romantic love
for someone or like being on social media, which everyone
talks about, you know, like you can have your online relationships,
(06:21):
but it's not quite the same as having like in person face to
face relationships.
Exactly.
So the way this comment came about, there's this philosopher
named Thomas Koka who identified two factors.
So this is back in the day, 1800s and stuff.
He said that there is a waning of the aristocracy.
So like the rich folks in the West and it facilitated the growth
of a middle class.
(06:41):
And so as the middle class is growing leisure and consumption
from them.
So they're they're buying things now.
Right.
They're not really affording, you know, the most expensive art
or whatever, but they still have this similar taste.
So they're getting like knockoff versions of what that art is.
You know, that kind of a deal.
And then also there was some movements in art like the romantic
movement, emphasized drama, emotion and sentimentality,
(07:05):
which is think fostered a widespread appetite for kitsch.
So it's not like me and my hallmark movies every Christmas.
They created it and the appetite grows the more I watch it.
And then you want it and so you get however you can and it's
going to be with those movies.
Oh, for sure.
So that's kind of like the historical sense of what kitsch
is.
Yeah.
And then for a long time, the application, the term kitsch
(07:26):
though, it started becoming to disparage certain artworks
and it seemed to evoke in like like a like a classist thing.
Like the rich people.
Yeah, like they would pull up their nose and be like, oh,
that's kitsch.
You know what I'm saying?
Sure.
That kind of stuff.
And so that seemed really unfair.
And so we had a really interesting kind of response to kitsch
in art and that's with pop art.
(07:46):
So pop art, super famous.
You got your Andy Warhol.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like him Marilyn Monroe pictures and Elvis pictures,
the soup cans, you know, the Brillo Boxes sculpture.
Like you did all that kind of stuff.
He's your famous one, Roy Lichtenstein, Klaus Altenberg.
There's a few of these famous, really, really famous guys.
And what they did in the 60s is they wanted to push back
(08:08):
against conventional fine art by engaging themes from popular
culture, celebrity, advertising, mass production.
See what happened was right before pop art, there was abstract
expressionism came was all the rage.
And so you had guys like, do you remember Jackson Pollock
who used to like drip paintings and stuff, drip it on stuff?
Yeah.
Which is interesting, but like how do you even like like normal
(08:28):
folks go into a museum, see a giant painting of just drip
stuff and their response is what?
Cool.
My five year old could do that.
That's what they say, right?
500%.
But why are they appreciated in art?
Well, what the abstract expression is we're trying to do,
they were like, hey, we really want to emphasize action and
we want to take out the way away the mediation and just
(08:49):
actually express the action itself.
So by dripping it, you saw his actual movements and you saw
a record of his movements as they were in there.
And which is very interesting.
He's basically the only one who could do it without being
derivative.
And so then when he did do it, you know, the art world is
like, that's great.
But then the real question is most folks are like, bro, this
doesn't make sense to me.
(09:10):
It's like I have to take an art history class to even
understand why your piece matters.
Yeah.
And so what the pop artists were doing is like, why don't
you give the people what they want?
Yeah.
If their taste is to you unsophisticated because of
whatever levels of education, who cares?
Like they.
Give the people what they want.
Right.
And so if they want to focus on celebrities or ordinary
(09:31):
objects or whatever, like show it to them.
If you buy a Campbell's soup every time you go to the store,
maybe you want to see a painting of a Campbell's soup can
and they were right.
And they love Marilyn Monroe, right?
Like, why don't we like that's one of the most famous
things ever.
Yeah.
He also reproduced the Last Supper thing.
He did a lot of stuff.
And so basically he's doing like this, this intentional
(09:51):
kitsch or what would be kitsch, but in doing it weirdly,
it's no longer kitsch.
It's like by calling it kitsch, it's no longer kitsch.
Like you're, you're, you're aware of it.
You're aware of what you're doing and you're just saying,
hey, you've actually made art just for the elites and we
want to democratize art.
We want to make it for everybody made it for everybody.
(10:12):
And so that's what they did.
They universalize its access and with that you have like,
if anything can become art, anything will become art.
And this is kind of our, our era that we're in now.
So now you can paint, draw, you can make sculptures.
You can do found art.
You can do whatever.
We're in a very pluralistic art world and pop art was a big
major movement of that.
Oh, for sure.
So kitsch is kind of this major thing that was derided for a
(10:38):
long time.
Then it was embraced and it was embraced because it gave
access to people to explore art and whatever.
Right.
So how does all this relate to truth?
That's the question.
You may ask.
Yes.
I love a good art history lesson.
So which is good, you know, stay educated team, but how do
(10:59):
we relate?
How are we, how are we bridging this gap?
Right.
So there's this philosopher and I'm a big fan.
I'm reading his book and I'm like, dang, he's making some
good points.
Oh, I love that.
And it's, it's been, you know, it's been a while since I've
read a book.
I mean, like nice where it's like every page.
I'm like, I'm like, dang, he got that.
That's, that's interesting.
Like man, and he, this is one of them.
So the book is called the new aesthetics of deculturation.
(11:22):
And it's by Thorsten Botz Bornstein.
He argues that kitsch exists as a response to our neoliberal
deculturalization that's globally present today.
This is what it means.
In layman's terms, in layman's terms, neoliberal means, so
we've talked about like the classical liberal, but it's
(11:42):
really more on economic terms.
It basically means that like the laissez faire economics,
capitalism, not regulating things and letting the market
compete and consumption patterns and stuff like that decide
what gets bought and what gets valued and stuff like that.
He thinks that we are actually in a decultured place.
So he thinks like, okay, humans need truths to believe in.
(12:07):
Like we need something that's true to us or whatever.
And so like obviously for us, we're talking about Christianity,
but like he'll say, cause he's just like, I think just a broad
philosopher.
He'll say like humans grasp onto some truth to them or whatever.
Yeah. Something that at least is a point of which they live
their life that they know.
Beyond themselves.
Yes. Correct.
Right. And so he said historically cultures were the
(12:28):
vehicles that transmitted these ideas, these truths.
Now cultures is basically collective ways of living
as shaped by languages, traditions, religions, artistic expressions,
our histories, all that kind of stuff.
That's our culture.
And he says like that is like our culture is a thing that
didn't, I guess, define truth, but transmitted truth.
Like we came to understand truth.
(12:49):
Through that.
Through our lens of our cultural lens.
And so he says in today's global neoliberal context, this like
capitalist kind of like way of thinking truth is, and this is a
quote from him, truth is increasingly produced instantaneously
without cultural mediation.
Yeah.
So what this means is that people, and you can think about
(13:14):
social media totally does this.
Absolutely.
He hits that social media pretty hard in a minute.
I'll talk about that.
But like it's so quickly done that you don't have like your
religion or your language or your tradition or your history
or anything like negotiating it.
It's not like it's just out there and then exists.
(13:35):
And it's not like nothing's being sifted through.
Nothing's being screened out.
Just agrees.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so this is actually a really major point that he makes.
Societies are, he's saying, decultured as traditional modes of
meaning making are then hollowed out and filled with productions
of rootless values that reflect our own preferences.
(13:55):
Yeah.
I think I've heard people even have conversations about like
we're in an internet culture.
Yeah.
Like where it's very, because we're also interconnected even
like nationally, internationally, like so many people, like we're
all kind of experiencing very similar things through the internet.
And so it's like an internet culture.
Yeah.
Because we're experiencing things that someone else over there in,
(14:15):
I don't know, Eastern Europe or something's also experiencing
because we both have TikTok.
Yeah.
And so it's like, oh,
but here's, here's how he talks about against social media.
Right.
Because of our liberal society, we desire freedom above all of us.
We want, we want to be free.
And so what arises because of this is a decultured narcissistic
outlook on life.
(14:35):
Yeah.
And so this is how he says it like social media, for example,
it literally parrots back to you, your own algorithm.
Correct.
The social dilemma that like that Netflix documentary thing.
Yeah.
That was crazy.
Yeah.
That blew my mind.
We'll put it on show notes.
Yeah.
If you haven't seen that, that essentially does explain this
exact thing.
It does.
Where your algorithm will show you people who believe the same thing
(14:56):
as you because that's what you're engaging with.
Or the exact opposite.
So that way you can be enraged against it.
Correct.
Like everything is to enlist it some sort of emotion.
But either way, what it's doing, it's like whittling down
and reducing your thoughts.
Like you're in an echo chamber.
You hear the same people saying the same thing over and over.
Or you hear the opposite position said so brashly.
(15:18):
So it engages you.
And so then you like become even more fossilized than whatever
your view is.
Right.
So what you're doing is you're not getting a nuanced view on
anything.
Yeah.
Your algorithms, pare it back and reaffirm what you want to
hear.
Who then is your moral authority?
What you've decided you believe.
That's it.
You.
You're your own moral authority.
(15:38):
No one actually keeps you in check morally.
Yeah.
Isn't that crazy?
And then they call it freedom of speech.
And they call it freedom of speech.
Who keeps you in check religiously?
There's so much stinking biblical literacy.
It's not even funny.
Well, that's why we exist.
Yeah.
It's because of the amount of like what we were seeing on
social media.
Trying to help it out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Of like even what people are willing to just put on the internet
(16:00):
without an ounce of study or background or anything.
Like they find either one verse and they yank it out of context
or they, you know, guide it by emotion.
So it's like whole oligies out of it.
Like you said before whole oligies out of one verse or a
turturt moment or a bad relationship or something.
They deconstruct because they don't understand what Jesus was
saying because if they did, if they knew the shepherd's voice,
(16:22):
they wouldn't be deconstructing.
Correct.
Not like that.
Not.
Yeah.
In a different, in a healthier way, ways that we've talked over
way over.
Yeah.
That we've talked about in multiple different episodes across
this podcast.
They wouldn't be convert if they knew the shepherd's voice.
Right.
But yeah.
So I mean, that's the kind of stuff that like, okay, you got a
serious point.
Who is your authority on truth?
(16:43):
Yeah.
And like, like just think about all the people you know that
are like in echo chambers.
Yeah.
They don't trust anyone.
Yeah.
I was talking to someone I love dearly and it's crazy that
this happens.
I found me remember and she just got sucked into a lot of the
conspiracy theory stuff.
Yeah.
(17:04):
And I couldn't even tell her anything.
And it's like, I don't even want to sound arrogant here.
But I was like, listen, you do know I have a PhD in theology
and philosophy.
Yeah.
Her response was just like, like, you can't trust what
they're saying in the education.
You can't trust this and that and blah, blah, blah.
And it's like, there's not even a good way to see what is
(17:27):
supposed to be screened out.
Yeah.
Because the second chamber just kind of went over and over
and over and over and over again.
Once you're in a vacuum, it's really hard to get out.
It's hard to get out of it.
Yeah.
How many times have you heard Democrats and Republicans say
to each other that they're brainwashed?
Oh yeah.
It's pretty much the entire rhetoric.
They both say it to each other.
When you're arguing, yeah.
Yeah.
And so like, look, if you are the only authority of the truth
(17:49):
and you're only authority for moral, you're only moral
authority, then this is one, it's like a, it's a crazy
relativism.
Yeah.
But two, social media compounds it and it goes through
all that stuff.
And so what he's saying is this shallow ethical values that
we derive, it basically emerges as an uncritical
fundamentalism.
And if you think about it, it makes sense because if you're
(18:11):
only hearing your very limited and narrow view on morality
and not a nuanced version of anything, then what you end up
doing is you have a fundamentalism.
You have like a very narrow view of life and that everything
else is wrong or whatever.
And even worse, you're unwilling to hear it in any other way.
Right.
Exactly.
That's why you've decided what you believe and because you're
your own own authority, you won't hear other perspectives
(18:32):
from anyone else.
Exactly.
The empty, so that's what happens with ethics.
It becomes fundamentalism.
But the empty aesthetic values materialize as kitsch.
So kitsch and this like kitchenification of truth, they're
totally related.
Yeah.
They're homies even.
They're homies.
So an easy reductionism of values occupy the same spaces
(18:57):
that we used to have thick culturally formed senses of
meaning.
Yeah.
Right.
And so what they did do, they took that away and then they
put in whatever.
And so like we've always sought meaningful responses to our
complex questions of intimacy.
Like what, you know, what is the meaning of life?
Why does this exist?
Whatever.
We always thought that stuff.
People always been existential.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We always ask those questions and religion has provided those
(19:19):
complex socially encumbered answers.
Yeah.
But now it's why such a giant population of the world is
religious.
Most of the world is still religious.
Most of the world is vibrantly religious.
This, this decultured society is really only talking about
the West and I mean, it's global.
So you'll find pockets of this everywhere, but this is mainly
an issue in the West.
Yeah.
So in our, what we're saying in our secular decultured society,
(19:42):
what we have is these deep religious longings are answered
by shallow authorities that don't know how to answer these
questions.
For example, the marketplace answers these questions for us.
So we have a question about the meaning of life and then
what you are told to do is shop.
Yeah.
You know, there's a great artist, Barbara Krueger, that was
(20:03):
talking about this stuff in the 80s and she's the one who
actually did the, do you know Supreme, the brand Supreme?
Yeah.
So they stole her aesthetic style.
So the red letters and the way she did it and the black and
white picture, she was doing that in the 80s.
She straight up stole it and she has this one famous photo
and it says, I shop, therefore I am.
That's what it says.
And that's like exactly this right here and she was doing
(20:24):
that in the 80s.
You know what I'm saying?
I mean, that's pretty, that's pretty metal to be thinking like
that in the 80s.
Yeah.
She's a very like, she'll speak her mind.
She called out Supreme the other day and like really bad
because they were suing someone for copying them and you're
like, oh, you want to ask a little bit here?
She called him out bad and she's like, she's a little white
lady and she was using some like, excuse me while I tear you
up.
(20:45):
She was using some vulgarities.
It was hilarious.
But I mean, if someone stole my whole aesthetic to create a
very popular clothing brand, I'd be pissed and she didn't,
but she didn't say nothing for 20 years.
She's kind of until so I'm ready to go calling the kettle.
You know what?
That's giving the like parable.
The parable was like, that's got forgiven the 10 million,
but then he like strung someone up for 10 bucks.
Oh, yeah.
That's what that's giving.
That's good.
(21:05):
Is I'm like, yeah.
Oh, so when you do it, it's okay.
Yeah.
That's good.
That's fine.
Look at that.
I'm like, oh, when parables play out in real life, I like it.
Almost like Jesus meant to do.
I like it.
Did Barbara Krueger know she was quoting Jesus?
No, but regardless.
So yeah.
So I mean the marketplace can't determine our values aesthetically.
(21:28):
I mean, I guess it can a little bit aesthetically, but like it
can't determine, it definitely can't determine our moral and
religious values, but it does.
It like it, it is how much you have what you wear.
That's it.
It, yeah.
So much of our identity and what we, how we see ourselves is wrapped
up in and if we don't allow a good culture to screen that nonsense
out, then it's hollow and the market goes right in, which is why
(21:53):
the point of it is like where they really, we need to be porting back
to the culture of the kingdom of God.
Yes.
Kingdom of God is a real culture where Christ is king.
Now this marketplace as the determiner of things, you know what that is?
Worshiping Mammon.
That's an idol and your idol is money.
Yeah.
The Bible don't play when it comes to serving two masters on that one.
(22:16):
It do not.
It do not.
All right.
So, so when we talk about misinformation, he made another really interesting
point and I had not thought about this before.
Alternate truths arise.
He says, not necessarily just because of misinformation, but because
of the kitchen of truth.
And so what he's saying here is our current age of misinformation
(22:40):
shouldn't be perceived just as like someone's like lying all the time,
like blatant falsehoods.
Yeah.
That's not what happened, but that's not the majority of things.
No.
He says it was blatantly wrong.
People wouldn't necessarily believe it or it'd be harder to convince people.
But why are they convinced on blatant rungs because of a lot of little
misinformation that have truth that led them to a conclusion.
(23:01):
Yeah.
There are a whole worldview that has shaped by misinformation and by
alternate facts by kitchen vacation.
Right.
And so he says it should be understood what our era should be
understood as an era where perspectives of truth are oversimplified.
And therefore misrepresented.
So if you're saying like, not the nuance, but a very simplified version of
(23:22):
something, and then you're saying something that is blatantly wrong to
reality, but fits to simplified narrative, then it fits there.
And so this misinformation is like not a blatant lie.
It's a logical thing of your reduced version of reality.
Right.
You know what I'm saying?
I feel like this is how cults happen too.
It's exactly how cults happen.
Yeah.
(23:43):
So any kind of fundamentalism, which they call generally is right.
Like it's a, it's like the most extreme case of a fundamentalism.
So if you think about politics, a particular perspective is oversimplifies.
You're either left or right.
You're either communists or fascists.
Yeah.
That kind of junk.
You're oversimplified and then, and then you're pushed out to these camps.
So you have to start like calling everyone who doesn't think like you
(24:06):
are fascist or a communist, depending on what side you're at.
And, and you have to start seeing things not in this nuanced way, but in this
kitschified way, a simplistic way of actual nonsense into your view,
if it's in your view, the world, but doesn't actually relate to reality
right in its complexity.
Right.
I feel like this is why you need philosophers and artists still like,
(24:28):
because I know sometimes some people are like, it doesn't matter,
but it's like, this is such an interesting way.
I thought it blew my mind.
Yeah.
Like it's such an interesting way to view truth.
And even though this isn't,
he's not necessarily making statements that are directly saying like,
and God said this, this and this, these kinds of thought processes
actually really do lend to a biblical worldview and like the dangers
(24:51):
of getting all kerfuffled in like by getting ourselves led away from
a culture of the kingdom where we are letting our lives be oversimplified
by the things that were being fed and the thing like regardless by anybody
and they might not even seem quote unquote bad at first.
But you know, like they say like the path to hell was paved with good intentions.
Like where it's like, oh, I had every intention to do this, this and this.
(25:12):
And it's like things can get real slippery.
If we're not rooted at the end of the day,
like everything we see needs to be sifted through the culture of the kingdom.
So if we're in a space where we are deculturalizing in a lot of ways,
how do we cling even deeper and more intentional to the culture of the kingdom?
That's really, really well said.
So if you think about like, we're in an era of discernment.
(25:34):
I've been thinking a lot about this. I think I'm going to try and look.
You have. Yeah.
So if we're in an era of discernment, what that means is we're following
the Holy Spirit in the chaos of what's going on, in the complexity of what's going on.
What kitchenification does, it reduces what's actually going on to make it unrealistic.
And that makes you think that you're following the kingdom.
But in fact, you're just following a reduced sense of things.
(25:56):
It's not necessarily true.
But what you should do is in the complexity of all things,
you're following straight ahead the Holy Spirit, wherever the spirit's leading.
I feel like the simplification thing, it just almost makes us feel better.
Like it sues anxieties, it makes us feel better.
Where it's like, oh, if this is so simple, then all I have to do is A and B.
But I think, you know, in order to stay rooted,
(26:19):
like we kind of do have to be willing to get uncomfortable and engage in some of the chaos of the world.
It's messy.
It is messy.
And we have to be willing to stay engaged in it.
So the one, I think that helps us reach it.
Like we have to kind of stay engaged in the chaos to make sure that like we are bringing Jesus into these messy spaces
and not letting it us bow to how can we make this as simple for us as possible
(26:43):
so that we don't have to get gross and uncomfortable with the way that the world is.
Yeah.
So this is why Christians to bring it all back look so dorky sometimes.
Yeah.
The reason why is because we're kitchified because we're like, we are not looking at the world as if it's the world.
Right.
We're looking at the world as if it's like, like, it's like the, like somebody's vision of reality.
(27:07):
So like when you look at God's not dead, like, I think this is, I think this is the funniest scene ever.
And this isn't, this isn't God's not dead at first one.
So you have like a philosopher who, okay.
He said, I'm sorry I'm gonna laugh.
Yeah.
This is just crazy.
And then there's a philosophy professor who has this big class and he's like, this is soft to tell people that you don't, you believe God is dead.
(27:28):
I need you to all sign that God is dead.
Like what do you mean to stay in this class?
And so he's put our on his sheet that if they didn't sign it and one little Christian dude had the bravery to courage to be like, I don't believe that.
And so like, first of all, this is so stinking unrealistic.
I mean, yeah, I've never heard of anything like that.
No, the, I don't even think that's allowed.
It's crazy straight up an infringement, whatever.
(27:49):
Yeah, but like, but people will say, well, it's private college, whatever.
Like, look, the stories that you think are some people are referencing.
Oh, this happened in this, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Go look at the actual facts of the story.
It isn't even close to this.
Okay.
I was actually close to one of them.
Just a little sidebar, but I was working at Polk State College and there was this young girl who was, she was 16.
(28:11):
She was doing rolled and she was taking a world religion class and the world religions professor.
Now he wasn't saying things like, like it was a weird assignment, but he was basically saying, hey, you need to argue two alternative religious views from other perspectives.
You need to argue their, their ideas as an, as an, as an assignment.
Yeah.
And she wouldn't do it.
She couldn't do it.
She was just like, I can't do this.
(28:32):
I, they're evil and I can't do that.
Oh.
And so she ended up getting an F on the assignment, but she actually still got an A in the class.
Oh.
But this became a major news headline where this professor gave a student F because she wouldn't denounce her faith.
That, okay.
That's how it gets.
Yeah.
Exactly.
No, that's not even what happened.
Now the assignment, I think is a little goofy.
(28:53):
I think a 16 year old is probably not ready to, to, to work through stuff like that.
You know, it's a little young.
It's a little young, like your driver's license.
Don't debate your, and I think so.
So there wasn't wisdom in the assignment writing, knowing that there's going to be doing world students in there, but it's not what the media portrayed it to be.
Yeah.
No one was asking anybody to denounce anything.
No, that didn't.
I've argued a lot of things in like persuasive, like debate essays I've written persuasive from other perspectives.
(29:18):
All kinds of different perspectives.
It's a common assignment.
It's a common assignment.
Yeah.
But like that's, but my point is I worked at that school.
I was an adjunct there just so you know that junk doesn't happen.
It's unrealistic in America.
Like that's unrealistic.
And so, but in God's not dead, that happens.
And so then the professor's like, oh yeah, well go teach the class.
So he does, lets a student teach his class for the next several weeks and the student teaches them apologetics, which is insane.
(29:43):
That wouldn't happen.
Like you would straight up.
No.
Lose your job.
Someone would get reported.
Oh my gosh.
And then happened in a class that I went to college in and then I was getting taught for four weeks by like a student.
I would be calling the, the academic's office.
Oh, but he's got tenure.
You can do.
No, people don't do that man.
Gosh, academic integrity.
But then the craziest junk was the end.
(30:06):
So spoiler for people haven't seen it.
So it's like 10 years old.
So yeah, buy it on DVD.
It's on y'all right now.
It's on y'all, but like he is running like this one kid is running to a news boys concert and you see.
Yeah, yeah, because everybody's just freaking.
They're going to see the news boys.
You know what I mean?
Of course.
Nothing against the news boys, but they're acting like they're Taylor Swift or something.
Right.
(30:27):
Anyways, they're running there and the atheist professor is crossing the street.
And then gets hit by a car and then the pastor, one of the pastors there was there and everybody's like freaking out.
Oh my gosh, what's going on?
And he's like the pastor goes, Hey, no, backup, backup creates a circle and like and with, with the, you know, the professor just got hit and he's like bleeding out in the middle of the street.
Oh, the professor got hit.
(30:48):
The professor got hit.
Oh, okay.
He's like, backup, back up.
And then he like, he kneels down.
Do you want to accept Jesus as your own personal savior?
Shut your mouth.
No, you remember that?
I never haven't seen the movie because I don't even, I have a really hard time watching it.
So I think the professor gets saved and then dies and then they die.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
(31:09):
I'm just thinking this is a perfect example.
So like they did a good job of actually speaking apologetics in there.
Like the arguments they were making were fine.
Yeah.
But the situation itself is not happening.
It's so incredibly unrealistic that like any non-Christians going to see that and they're going to be like Christians think of themselves this way in this world.
Yeah.
(31:30):
That's insane.
It's also people like I've seen comments made that were like Christians, you're not oppressed.
Like, yeah, look, I mean, specifically in like the US, right?
Because obviously Christians are oppressed in other areas, but in the US, which is where we are, right?
And so it's like you're not, you are, you are enforcing oppression on yourself.
This doesn't happen.
Like, like why are you training to, to, to argue with your professor that's never once going to ask you to do that?
(31:54):
Exactly.
Oh man.
Pumping your mental iron to try and dispute your tenured professor in a way that would never happen in real life.
It's crazy.
I just, I just looked it up just to verify the professor gets hit by a car at the end of it and dies, but not before he becomes a Christian.
All right.
Anyways, he's like, I watched a student speak in my front of my class for four weeks and now I want to love God.
(32:16):
Yeah.
Because he got hit as people were rushing to see the news boys.
It's like, bro, come on, man.
See the news?
I just, it's so un-serious.
It's so crazy.
It's like, it's like, how should I be offended as an artist for the bad artistry or as a Christian for the bad demonstration and story of the witness of Jesus?
You know what I'm saying?
Like, oh my gosh.
So like you have movies like Les Mis who explain grace in such a beautiful way.
(32:42):
Like the musical Les Mis, not meant to be Christian, but there's an explanation of grace.
Yeah.
Such a beautiful way.
You have all these like artists that are awesome like like Terrence Malick who's a Christian who does these like really deep rich things.
Tim Hawkinson is a great Christian artist.
You have bands like Switchfoot.
You know what I mean?
I love Switchfoot.
There's a bunch of, and even like Christians that are, or bands and stuff that are unapologetically Christian.
(33:05):
Yeah.
That like will just not be corny about it.
Like Mav City.
Like if you see them talking to anyone, their respect, they're just normal.
They're not, they're not mad corny about it.
It's like they understand the way the world actually works and they understand the good news in the midst of this world.
Right.
So that's the question of like, does the gospel get messed up when we catchify everything and portray the gospel to a world that doesn't really exist?
(33:31):
Right.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Our last question then is, does this give us a new perspective on misinformation?
Is it mostly based on a reductionism of kitsch or our actual lies and false truths being presented?
I think it's probably both.
Yeah.
But those false truths and lies kind of exist in kitschified realities.
Right.
(33:52):
You know what I mean?
What do you think?
I would agree.
I think it's easier to, I mean, this, this kitchenification, the reductionism of it when it, it's helpful or it's like, it feels like, oh yeah, I'll accept something that feels easy to accept.
Yeah.
I feel like that's general humans, like, especially if you're not like, some people are not, don't not love super deep thinking.
They do not like that.
That's not their ministry.
(34:13):
And then there's other people who like, they get their degrees in philosophy because they love the deep thinking.
Right.
And so, but I think a general medium of everyone would be like, yeah, I like to accept things that make sense and are simple and I can understand it.
And so I feel like that's why it's important as believers to make sure that we're not so much being like, oh, I'll accept everything that is simple and easy to me because that's going to make me feel better.
(34:38):
It's like, no, the Bible is pretty complex.
The Bible is very complex.
And the world is too.
And the world is very complex and sim simplicity can be a false comfort because it makes us feel like we understand more than we do.
And we, but I think that I think we have to be willing to do that in all areas like politically, academically, like be willing to engage with more than just the people who agree with what we agree with or the things that make sense to us.
(35:05):
Like, I think that we need to be people who engage outside of just the kitsch of, oh, everything is really easy to understand when you present it to me in this manner.
This comes down to like the main point of even our podcast.
You know, in my ethics class, some classes that I teach, one of my main goals is for students to learn why the arguments of another side actually makes sense.
(35:29):
Not that they should necessarily agree with them, but why they make sense.
Because once they even come to a point of understanding the other side, what happens is I see them being more gracious, being more empathetic, still saying, okay, I disagree on these points here, but I know where you're coming from.
You're not actually crazy.
And that is a un-kitchified way of looking at it.
(35:50):
Yeah, that's actually makes it a little more complicated and digs in a little deeper.
It is room for nuance, but nuance and clarity within the nuance of like why you're holding what you're doing, but then also just a general sense of clarity.
It's like, it's like everybody in Jesus day demonized lepers and prostitutes and tax collectors, but Jesus saw them.
He understood why they were where they were and then showed them a way out of it.
(36:18):
It's like you saw them where they were at.
It's like the rest of his day, kitchified everything.
Yeah, it's real simple to write people off.
To write them off.
It's actually quite hard and difficult to engage with people.
And that's exactly what Jesus did.
And it's what us as Christians are called to do.
And we're called to do.
So I think, you know, how does this affect us doing ministry today? Take some time to explain things.
(36:40):
Slow down, be authentic.
We know how important authenticity is for Gen Z and for everybody.
Take time to actually love people and meet them where they're at.
It doesn't mean, remember when Jesus met the woman at the well, he called her out her whole everything.
He read the, read the mail.
Yeah.
You've been with five men.
He said the whole nine yards, she was like, oh my gosh, he knows me.
(37:03):
But then he said, but then he showed compassion.
He showed grace.
He showed mercy.
Yeah.
But then what do you say at the end of this encounter and other encounters that he does, go and sin no more.
Yeah.
So there's this speaking of truth, but only when he was in the mud with them.
Yeah.
When he was in the complexity of the situation with them, he was able to show them the light out of whatever that is.
(37:25):
Yeah.
Yeah, let's be nuanced.
Let's not complicate things in order to complicate them.
Yeah.
We recognize the fact that some things are very complicated.
Yeah.
It is a noble endeavor to engage in what is complicated about people and relationships and our faith and bring truth to those things.
Our minds are complicated.
Our bodies are complicated.
Our social relations are complicated.
(37:47):
These things all have so many multifaceted aspects about them that have shaped us and malformed us in many ways when they're not, you know, in God and stuff like that.
But getting in the mud there, knowing this messiness and seeing what's going on, that's when we can meet people and show them Christ.
Yep.
I love this conversation.
(38:08):
I thought it was super interesting.
Yeah.
We'll put some good info for you guys in the show notes.
And now you can be empowered to use the word kitsch and kitchen vacation and regular conversations with people.
Yeah.
Get ready to explain it for the next 12 minutes after you.
Yeah, exactly.
But you will get to drop it in a conversation.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, we'll see you next time. This was brought to you by the School of Theology and Ministry at Life Pacific University.
(38:32):
See you next time.
Was your family an Easter Bunny family?
(00:01):
Not really.
We're too Christian for that kind of.
I love God too much to mess with the Easter Bunny.
I don't think I ever had a bunny, but we did do egg hunts.
But also can we unpack why it's an Easter Bunny,
but the bunny brings eggs?
They're all symbols of life, of new life.
I know, but why I don't know.
But why isn't it like the Easter duck,
(00:22):
or the Easter goose or something?
I don't, I don't, I want to know.
I do want to know where that came from.
I'm going to look it up.
We must do some digging.
Why does the...
Why is it not the Easter chicken?
In Christianity, Easter eggs represent Jesus' resurrection
and his emergence from the tomb.
So we're actually doing tomb hunts.
(00:43):
Because these are not eggs.
They're tombs.
Little baby tombs.
Little teeny little tombs.
How do we tell the kids that they're picking up tiny graves?
That's what I'm saying.
So I think we should start the Easter chicken.
Agree.
Welcome to TikTok Theology,
a podcast that tackles the major trending topics on social media
(01:04):
that concern the Christian faith.
I'm Meagan.
And I'm Steven.
We know you can't form a theology in three minutes or less,
but those videos can identify current issues.
TikTok will give us the prompt,
and then we'll do a deep dive.
Thanks for joining us in this exploration.
Hello, friends.
Welcome back.
Hello.
(01:24):
Today's episode has a 25 cent word in the title.
It's the, uh, kitchification of truth.
Try to say that without cussing.
That's going to be hard to do.
He said, oh, that'll run you up a little bit there.
So what you may be asking,
we're going to unpack this big word for you.
(01:44):
But, um, when we're talking about why, of course,
why does Gen Z care is social media having this conversation,
right?
Kitchification, you might not be seeing that word in,
but don't fret.
It is there just not in the way that you think.
So we'll unpack the definition and stuff,
but kind of what we're unpacking today is like the kind of art
or information that we've seen from Christians,
(02:06):
where it's like an artist drawing white Jesus or some of the
corny Christian like movies and stuff that everyone kind of
clowns a little bit.
The entire left behind series, the whole thing,
like, which is kind of corn ball.
And we all kind of laugh at it and stuff,
you know, a little bit here and there of which,
which people have conversations on social media of like,
oh my goodness, the effects that these things have had on,
(02:29):
you know, Christian kids and stuff like that.
Um, so that's where the conversation is had on tick,
talking stuff.
I've seen people call on all of it, of kitchen,
all of it, but it seems like this kind of art or media of
some sort, when it presents these things that are not
necessarily biblically truthful or accurate,
that it's not communicating the truth and it's actually is
(02:51):
spreading to some degree misinformation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We might laugh at it as being corny and stuff,
but it actually does tie into some maybe harmful things like
misinformation about Jesus or Christianity and stuff.
So we're kind of going to get into that today and unpack
the kitchen of it all.
What happened is I read a really interesting book that I want
to kind of express a little bit that actually use this term.
(03:13):
It's also talking about misinformation, alternate facts
and how all of those things work together with kitsch.
And so it seems odd, but I think it's really interesting.
This idea of misrepresentations or misinformation is ongoing
and it's hard for us to even figure out how to deal with it.
Right.
Especially with like AI and stuff with AI, everything like
(03:33):
there's, there's so much going like we have so many narratives
going on and we don't even know what's true or not true anymore
and so tough.
So what this is and from me and my artist brain,
like I'm like, oh, I love this way the way they're talking
about here.
Yeah.
So let's talk about kitsch.
Woo.
So first let's define what kitsch is and then how this might
relate to truth and stuff.
(03:54):
So the term kitsch is an old term that artists have used for a
long time.
It goes all the way back to the art markets of Munich and
Germany between the 1860s and 1870s and it was talking about
works that were like considered cheap, mass produced, you know,
like little trinket type things.
(04:14):
You know what I'm saying?
Like we'll talk about like the bobblehead Jesus dolls.
You'll talk about like the little, you know, baby angel
ceramic thingies, you know, those kind of things.
So sometimes a little manger scenes that are a little
cutesy things, you know, oh yeah, Christmas, yeah, the
nativity scenes everywhere.
Yes.
So those are all your little all your shepherds and your
wise men, but the wise men weren't that, you know, all that.
(04:35):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
That's where it kind of comes from.
It's supposed to be like an unsophisticated taste, you know,
like they have popular appeal.
Thomas King, Kate paintings are like the oh yeah.
You know I'm saying we might hate some of you all might get
offended by this, but some people might call Bob Ross.
Kitch.
Sorry guys.
Sorry guys.
Sorry to the listeners who love Bob Ross.
That was not a happy which is all of us.
(04:56):
That was not a happy accident.
Yeah, you gotta love Bob Ross, but you gotta love him, you
know, even though and in spite of in spite of so the etymology
of the word kitch is probably from the German verb, veta
kitchen, which means to knock off or the cheap and put his
German to use, yes, put his half German to use right now.
Yeah, you should be nine a Deutsche get him.
(05:17):
All right, so over time the meaning of the term began to
expand beyond just art and it kind of talked about anything
that was excessively sentimental, you know, God, he like like
is provoking your emotions, even though it's like cheap or not
like real deep or whatever.
Yeah, so I feel like when you walk into like a house and they
have like live left love all over the place like a home movie
(05:40):
like, you know what I mean?
I love me a little Hallmark movie.
Yeah, but it's like the same thing every single time.
Yeah, what kind of raining, you know, I'm saying stuff like
that snowing all that perfect anything that seems to be merely
there to entertain rather than to provoke thought right.
You know what I mean?
No, for sure.
So kitch has produced pleasure.
(06:00):
People like it, but the idea here is that this pleasure is like
an empty or imitative pleasure.
Like it's like a counterfeit emotion that is producing.
Sure.
It's like having lustful thoughts instead of like a romantic love
for someone or like being on social media, which everyone
talks about, you know, like you can have your online relationships,
(06:21):
but it's not quite the same as having like in person face to
face relationships.
Exactly.
So the way this comment came about, there's this philosopher
named Thomas Koka who identified two factors.
So this is back in the day, 1800s and stuff.
He said that there is a waning of the aristocracy.
So like the rich folks in the West and it facilitated the growth
of a middle class.
(06:41):
And so as the middle class is growing leisure and consumption
from them.
So they're they're buying things now.
Right.
They're not really affording, you know, the most expensive art
or whatever, but they still have this similar taste.
So they're getting like knockoff versions of what that art is.
You know, that kind of a deal.
And then also there was some movements in art like the romantic
movement, emphasized drama, emotion and sentimentality,
(07:05):
which is think fostered a widespread appetite for kitsch.
So it's not like me and my hallmark movies every Christmas.
They created it and the appetite grows the more I watch it.
And then you want it and so you get however you can and it's
going to be with those movies.
Oh, for sure.
So that's kind of like the historical sense of what kitsch
is.
Yeah.
And then for a long time, the application, the term kitsch
(07:26):
though, it started becoming to disparage certain artworks
and it seemed to evoke in like like a like a classist thing.
Like the rich people.
Yeah, like they would pull up their nose and be like, oh,
that's kitsch.
You know what I'm saying?
Sure.
That kind of stuff.
And so that seemed really unfair.
And so we had a really interesting kind of response to kitsch
in art and that's with pop art.
(07:46):
So pop art, super famous.
You got your Andy Warhol.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like him Marilyn Monroe pictures and Elvis pictures,
the soup cans, you know, the Brillo Boxes sculpture.
Like you did all that kind of stuff.
He's your famous one, Roy Lichtenstein, Klaus Altenberg.
There's a few of these famous, really, really famous guys.
And what they did in the 60s is they wanted to push back
(08:08):
against conventional fine art by engaging themes from popular
culture, celebrity, advertising, mass production.
See what happened was right before pop art, there was abstract
expressionism came was all the rage.
And so you had guys like, do you remember Jackson Pollock
who used to like drip paintings and stuff, drip it on stuff?
Yeah.
Which is interesting, but like how do you even like like normal
(08:28):
folks go into a museum, see a giant painting of just drip
stuff and their response is what?
Cool.
My five year old could do that.
That's what they say, right?
500%.
But why are they appreciated in art?
Well, what the abstract expression is we're trying to do,
they were like, hey, we really want to emphasize action and
we want to take out the way away the mediation and just
(08:49):
actually express the action itself.
So by dripping it, you saw his actual movements and you saw
a record of his movements as they were in there.
And which is very interesting.
He's basically the only one who could do it without being
derivative.
And so then when he did do it, you know, the art world is
like, that's great.
But then the real question is most folks are like, bro, this
doesn't make sense to me.
(09:10):
It's like I have to take an art history class to even
understand why your piece matters.
Yeah.
And so what the pop artists were doing is like, why don't
you give the people what they want?
Yeah.
If their taste is to you unsophisticated because of
whatever levels of education, who cares?
Like they.
Give the people what they want.
Right.
And so if they want to focus on celebrities or ordinary
(09:31):
objects or whatever, like show it to them.
If you buy a Campbell's soup every time you go to the store,
maybe you want to see a painting of a Campbell's soup can
and they were right.
And they love Marilyn Monroe, right?
Like, why don't we like that's one of the most famous
things ever.
Yeah.
He also reproduced the Last Supper thing.
He did a lot of stuff.
And so basically he's doing like this, this intentional
(09:51):
kitsch or what would be kitsch, but in doing it weirdly,
it's no longer kitsch.
It's like by calling it kitsch, it's no longer kitsch.
Like you're, you're, you're aware of it.
You're aware of what you're doing and you're just saying,
hey, you've actually made art just for the elites and we
want to democratize art.
We want to make it for everybody made it for everybody.
(10:12):
And so that's what they did.
They universalize its access and with that you have like,
if anything can become art, anything will become art.
And this is kind of our, our era that we're in now.
So now you can paint, draw, you can make sculptures.
You can do found art.
You can do whatever.
We're in a very pluralistic art world and pop art was a big
major movement of that.
Oh, for sure.
So kitsch is kind of this major thing that was derided for a
(10:38):
long time.
Then it was embraced and it was embraced because it gave
access to people to explore art and whatever.
Right.
So how does all this relate to truth?
That's the question.
You may ask.
Yes.
I love a good art history lesson.
So which is good, you know, stay educated team, but how do
(10:59):
we relate?
How are we, how are we bridging this gap?
Right.
So there's this philosopher and I'm a big fan.
I'm reading his book and I'm like, dang, he's making some
good points.
Oh, I love that.
And it's, it's been, you know, it's been a while since I've
read a book.
I mean, like nice where it's like every page.
I'm like, I'm like, dang, he got that.
That's, that's interesting.
Like man, and he, this is one of them.
So the book is called the new aesthetics of deculturation.
(11:22):
And it's by Thorsten Botz Bornstein.
He argues that kitsch exists as a response to our neoliberal
deculturalization that's globally present today.
This is what it means.
In layman's terms, in layman's terms, neoliberal means, so
we've talked about like the classical liberal, but it's
(11:42):
really more on economic terms.
It basically means that like the laissez faire economics,
capitalism, not regulating things and letting the market
compete and consumption patterns and stuff like that decide
what gets bought and what gets valued and stuff like that.
He thinks that we are actually in a decultured place.
So he thinks like, okay, humans need truths to believe in.
(12:07):
Like we need something that's true to us or whatever.
And so like obviously for us, we're talking about Christianity,
but like he'll say, cause he's just like, I think just a broad
philosopher.
He'll say like humans grasp onto some truth to them or whatever.
Yeah. Something that at least is a point of which they live
their life that they know.
Beyond themselves.
Yes. Correct.
Right. And so he said historically cultures were the
(12:28):
vehicles that transmitted these ideas, these truths.
Now cultures is basically collective ways of living
as shaped by languages, traditions, religions, artistic expressions,
our histories, all that kind of stuff.
That's our culture.
And he says like that is like our culture is a thing that
didn't, I guess, define truth, but transmitted truth.
Like we came to understand truth.
(12:49):
Through that.
Through our lens of our cultural lens.
And so he says in today's global neoliberal context, this like
capitalist kind of like way of thinking truth is, and this is a
quote from him, truth is increasingly produced instantaneously
without cultural mediation.
Yeah.
So what this means is that people, and you can think about
(13:14):
social media totally does this.
Absolutely.
He hits that social media pretty hard in a minute.
I'll talk about that.
But like it's so quickly done that you don't have like your
religion or your language or your tradition or your history
or anything like negotiating it.
It's not like it's just out there and then exists.
(13:35):
And it's not like nothing's being sifted through.
Nothing's being screened out.
Just agrees.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so this is actually a really major point that he makes.
Societies are, he's saying, decultured as traditional modes of
meaning making are then hollowed out and filled with productions
of rootless values that reflect our own preferences.
(13:55):
Yeah.
I think I've heard people even have conversations about like
we're in an internet culture.
Yeah.
Like where it's very, because we're also interconnected even
like nationally, internationally, like so many people, like we're
all kind of experiencing very similar things through the internet.
And so it's like an internet culture.
Yeah.
Because we're experiencing things that someone else over there in,
(14:15):
I don't know, Eastern Europe or something's also experiencing
because we both have TikTok.
Yeah.
And so it's like, oh,
but here's, here's how he talks about against social media.
Right.
Because of our liberal society, we desire freedom above all of us.
We want, we want to be free.
And so what arises because of this is a decultured narcissistic
outlook on life.
(14:35):
Yeah.
And so this is how he says it like social media, for example,
it literally parrots back to you, your own algorithm.
Correct.
The social dilemma that like that Netflix documentary thing.
Yeah.
That was crazy.
Yeah.
That blew my mind.
We'll put it on show notes.
Yeah.
If you haven't seen that, that essentially does explain this
exact thing.
It does.
Where your algorithm will show you people who believe the same thing
(14:56):
as you because that's what you're engaging with.
Or the exact opposite.
So that way you can be enraged against it.
Correct.
Like everything is to enlist it some sort of emotion.
But either way, what it's doing, it's like whittling down
and reducing your thoughts.
Like you're in an echo chamber.
You hear the same people saying the same thing over and over.
Or you hear the opposite position said so brashly.
(15:18):
So it engages you.
And so then you like become even more fossilized than whatever
your view is.
Right.
So what you're doing is you're not getting a nuanced view on
anything.
Yeah.
Your algorithms, pare it back and reaffirm what you want to
hear.
Who then is your moral authority?
What you've decided you believe.
That's it.
You.
You're your own moral authority.
(15:38):
No one actually keeps you in check morally.
Yeah.
Isn't that crazy?
And then they call it freedom of speech.
And they call it freedom of speech.
Who keeps you in check religiously?
There's so much stinking biblical literacy.
It's not even funny.
Well, that's why we exist.
Yeah.
It's because of the amount of like what we were seeing on
social media.
Trying to help it out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Of like even what people are willing to just put on the internet
(16:00):
without an ounce of study or background or anything.
Like they find either one verse and they yank it out of context
or they, you know, guide it by emotion.
So it's like whole oligies out of it.
Like you said before whole oligies out of one verse or a
turturt moment or a bad relationship or something.
They deconstruct because they don't understand what Jesus was
saying because if they did, if they knew the shepherd's voice,
(16:22):
they wouldn't be deconstructing.
Correct.
Not like that.
Not.
Yeah.
In a different, in a healthier way, ways that we've talked over
way over.
Yeah.
That we've talked about in multiple different episodes across
this podcast.
They wouldn't be convert if they knew the shepherd's voice.
Right.
But yeah.
So I mean, that's the kind of stuff that like, okay, you got a
serious point.
Who is your authority on truth?
(16:43):
Yeah.
And like, like just think about all the people you know that
are like in echo chambers.
Yeah.
They don't trust anyone.
Yeah.
I was talking to someone I love dearly and it's crazy that
this happens.
I found me remember and she just got sucked into a lot of the
conspiracy theory stuff.
Yeah.
(17:04):
And I couldn't even tell her anything.
And it's like, I don't even want to sound arrogant here.
But I was like, listen, you do know I have a PhD in theology
and philosophy.
Yeah.
Her response was just like, like, you can't trust what
they're saying in the education.
You can't trust this and that and blah, blah, blah.
And it's like, there's not even a good way to see what is
(17:27):
supposed to be screened out.
Yeah.
Because the second chamber just kind of went over and over
and over and over and over again.
Once you're in a vacuum, it's really hard to get out.
It's hard to get out of it.
Yeah.
How many times have you heard Democrats and Republicans say
to each other that they're brainwashed?
Oh yeah.
It's pretty much the entire rhetoric.
They both say it to each other.
When you're arguing, yeah.
Yeah.
And so like, look, if you are the only authority of the truth
(17:49):
and you're only authority for moral, you're only moral
authority, then this is one, it's like a, it's a crazy
relativism.
Yeah.
But two, social media compounds it and it goes through
all that stuff.
And so what he's saying is this shallow ethical values that
we derive, it basically emerges as an uncritical
fundamentalism.
And if you think about it, it makes sense because if you're
(18:11):
only hearing your very limited and narrow view on morality
and not a nuanced version of anything, then what you end up
doing is you have a fundamentalism.
You have like a very narrow view of life and that everything
else is wrong or whatever.
And even worse, you're unwilling to hear it in any other way.
Right.
Exactly.
That's why you've decided what you believe and because you're
your own own authority, you won't hear other perspectives
(18:32):
from anyone else.
Exactly.
The empty, so that's what happens with ethics.
It becomes fundamentalism.
But the empty aesthetic values materialize as kitsch.
So kitsch and this like kitchenification of truth, they're
totally related.
Yeah.
They're homies even.
They're homies.
So an easy reductionism of values occupy the same spaces
(18:57):
that we used to have thick culturally formed senses of
meaning.
Yeah.
Right.
And so what they did do, they took that away and then they
put in whatever.
And so like we've always sought meaningful responses to our
complex questions of intimacy.
Like what, you know, what is the meaning of life?
Why does this exist?
Whatever.
We always thought that stuff.
People always been existential.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We always ask those questions and religion has provided those
(19:19):
complex socially encumbered answers.
Yeah.
But now it's why such a giant population of the world is
religious.
Most of the world is still religious.
Most of the world is vibrantly religious.
This, this decultured society is really only talking about
the West and I mean, it's global.
So you'll find pockets of this everywhere, but this is mainly
an issue in the West.
Yeah.
So in our, what we're saying in our secular decultured society,
(19:42):
what we have is these deep religious longings are answered
by shallow authorities that don't know how to answer these
questions.
For example, the marketplace answers these questions for us.
So we have a question about the meaning of life and then
what you are told to do is shop.
Yeah.
You know, there's a great artist, Barbara Krueger, that was
(20:03):
talking about this stuff in the 80s and she's the one who
actually did the, do you know Supreme, the brand Supreme?
Yeah.
So they stole her aesthetic style.
So the red letters and the way she did it and the black and
white picture, she was doing that in the 80s.
She straight up stole it and she has this one famous photo
and it says, I shop, therefore I am.
That's what it says.
And that's like exactly this right here and she was doing
(20:24):
that in the 80s.
You know what I'm saying?
I mean, that's pretty, that's pretty metal to be thinking like
that in the 80s.
Yeah.
She's a very like, she'll speak her mind.
She called out Supreme the other day and like really bad
because they were suing someone for copying them and you're
like, oh, you want to ask a little bit here?
She called him out bad and she's like, she's a little white
lady and she was using some like, excuse me while I tear you
up.
(20:45):
She was using some vulgarities.
It was hilarious.
But I mean, if someone stole my whole aesthetic to create a
very popular clothing brand, I'd be pissed and she didn't,
but she didn't say nothing for 20 years.
She's kind of until so I'm ready to go calling the kettle.
You know what?
That's giving the like parable.
The parable was like, that's got forgiven the 10 million,
but then he like strung someone up for 10 bucks.
Oh, yeah.
That's what that's giving.
That's good.
(21:05):
Is I'm like, yeah.
Oh, so when you do it, it's okay.
Yeah.
That's good.
That's fine.
Look at that.
I'm like, oh, when parables play out in real life, I like it.
Almost like Jesus meant to do.
I like it.
Did Barbara Krueger know she was quoting Jesus?
No, but regardless.
So yeah.
So I mean the marketplace can't determine our values aesthetically.
(21:28):
I mean, I guess it can a little bit aesthetically, but like it
can't determine, it definitely can't determine our moral and
religious values, but it does.
It like it, it is how much you have what you wear.
That's it.
It, yeah.
So much of our identity and what we, how we see ourselves is wrapped
up in and if we don't allow a good culture to screen that nonsense
out, then it's hollow and the market goes right in, which is why
(21:53):
the point of it is like where they really, we need to be porting back
to the culture of the kingdom of God.
Yes.
Kingdom of God is a real culture where Christ is king.
Now this marketplace as the determiner of things, you know what that is?
Worshiping Mammon.
That's an idol and your idol is money.
Yeah.
The Bible don't play when it comes to serving two masters on that one.
(22:16):
It do not.
It do not.
All right.
So, so when we talk about misinformation, he made another really interesting
point and I had not thought about this before.
Alternate truths arise.
He says, not necessarily just because of misinformation, but because
of the kitchen of truth.
And so what he's saying here is our current age of misinformation
(22:40):
shouldn't be perceived just as like someone's like lying all the time,
like blatant falsehoods.
Yeah.
That's not what happened, but that's not the majority of things.
No.
He says it was blatantly wrong.
People wouldn't necessarily believe it or it'd be harder to convince people.
But why are they convinced on blatant rungs because of a lot of little
misinformation that have truth that led them to a conclusion.
(23:01):
Yeah.
There are a whole worldview that has shaped by misinformation and by
alternate facts by kitchen vacation.
Right.
And so he says it should be understood what our era should be
understood as an era where perspectives of truth are oversimplified.
And therefore misrepresented.
So if you're saying like, not the nuance, but a very simplified version of
(23:22):
something, and then you're saying something that is blatantly wrong to
reality, but fits to simplified narrative, then it fits there.
And so this misinformation is like not a blatant lie.
It's a logical thing of your reduced version of reality.
Right.
You know what I'm saying?
I feel like this is how cults happen too.
It's exactly how cults happen.
Yeah.
(23:43):
So any kind of fundamentalism, which they call generally is right.
Like it's a, it's like the most extreme case of a fundamentalism.
So if you think about politics, a particular perspective is oversimplifies.
You're either left or right.
You're either communists or fascists.
Yeah.
That kind of junk.
You're oversimplified and then, and then you're pushed out to these camps.
So you have to start like calling everyone who doesn't think like you
(24:06):
are fascist or a communist, depending on what side you're at.
And, and you have to start seeing things not in this nuanced way, but in this
kitschified way, a simplistic way of actual nonsense into your view,
if it's in your view, the world, but doesn't actually relate to reality
right in its complexity.
Right.
I feel like this is why you need philosophers and artists still like,
(24:28):
because I know sometimes some people are like, it doesn't matter,
but it's like, this is such an interesting way.
I thought it blew my mind.
Yeah.
Like it's such an interesting way to view truth.
And even though this isn't,
he's not necessarily making statements that are directly saying like,
and God said this, this and this, these kinds of thought processes
actually really do lend to a biblical worldview and like the dangers
(24:51):
of getting all kerfuffled in like by getting ourselves led away from
a culture of the kingdom where we are letting our lives be oversimplified
by the things that were being fed and the thing like regardless by anybody
and they might not even seem quote unquote bad at first.
But you know, like they say like the path to hell was paved with good intentions.
Like where it's like, oh, I had every intention to do this, this and this.
(25:12):
And it's like things can get real slippery.
If we're not rooted at the end of the day,
like everything we see needs to be sifted through the culture of the kingdom.
So if we're in a space where we are deculturalizing in a lot of ways,
how do we cling even deeper and more intentional to the culture of the kingdom?
That's really, really well said.
So if you think about like, we're in an era of discernment.
(25:34):
I've been thinking a lot about this. I think I'm going to try and look.
You have. Yeah.
So if we're in an era of discernment, what that means is we're following
the Holy Spirit in the chaos of what's going on, in the complexity of what's going on.
What kitchenification does, it reduces what's actually going on to make it unrealistic.
And that makes you think that you're following the kingdom.
But in fact, you're just following a reduced sense of things.
(25:56):
It's not necessarily true.
But what you should do is in the complexity of all things,
you're following straight ahead the Holy Spirit, wherever the spirit's leading.
I feel like the simplification thing, it just almost makes us feel better.
Like it sues anxieties, it makes us feel better.
Where it's like, oh, if this is so simple, then all I have to do is A and B.
But I think, you know, in order to stay rooted,
(26:19):
like we kind of do have to be willing to get uncomfortable and engage in some of the chaos of the world.
It's messy.
It is messy.
And we have to be willing to stay engaged in it.
So the one, I think that helps us reach it.
Like we have to kind of stay engaged in the chaos to make sure that like we are bringing Jesus into these messy spaces
and not letting it us bow to how can we make this as simple for us as possible
(26:43):
so that we don't have to get gross and uncomfortable with the way that the world is.
Yeah.
So this is why Christians to bring it all back look so dorky sometimes.
Yeah.
The reason why is because we're kitchified because we're like, we are not looking at the world as if it's the world.
Right.
We're looking at the world as if it's like, like, it's like the, like somebody's vision of reality.
(27:07):
So like when you look at God's not dead, like, I think this is, I think this is the funniest scene ever.
And this isn't, this isn't God's not dead at first one.
So you have like a philosopher who, okay.
He said, I'm sorry I'm gonna laugh.
Yeah.
This is just crazy.
And then there's a philosophy professor who has this big class and he's like, this is soft to tell people that you don't, you believe God is dead.
(27:28):
I need you to all sign that God is dead.
Like what do you mean to stay in this class?
And so he's put our on his sheet that if they didn't sign it and one little Christian dude had the bravery to courage to be like, I don't believe that.
And so like, first of all, this is so stinking unrealistic.
I mean, yeah, I've never heard of anything like that.
No, the, I don't even think that's allowed.
It's crazy straight up an infringement, whatever.
(27:49):
Yeah, but like, but people will say, well, it's private college, whatever.
Like, look, the stories that you think are some people are referencing.
Oh, this happened in this, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Go look at the actual facts of the story.
It isn't even close to this.
Okay.
I was actually close to one of them.
Just a little sidebar, but I was working at Polk State College and there was this young girl who was, she was 16.
(28:11):
She was doing rolled and she was taking a world religion class and the world religions professor.
Now he wasn't saying things like, like it was a weird assignment, but he was basically saying, hey, you need to argue two alternative religious views from other perspectives.
You need to argue their, their ideas as an, as an, as an assignment.
Yeah.
And she wouldn't do it.
She couldn't do it.
She was just like, I can't do this.
(28:32):
I, they're evil and I can't do that.
Oh.
And so she ended up getting an F on the assignment, but she actually still got an A in the class.
Oh.
But this became a major news headline where this professor gave a student F because she wouldn't denounce her faith.
That, okay.
That's how it gets.
Yeah.
Exactly.
No, that's not even what happened.
Now the assignment, I think is a little goofy.
(28:53):
I think a 16 year old is probably not ready to, to, to work through stuff like that.
You know, it's a little young.
It's a little young, like your driver's license.
Don't debate your, and I think so.
So there wasn't wisdom in the assignment writing, knowing that there's going to be doing world students in there, but it's not what the media portrayed it to be.
Yeah.
No one was asking anybody to denounce anything.
No, that didn't.
I've argued a lot of things in like persuasive, like debate essays I've written persuasive from other perspectives.
(29:18):
All kinds of different perspectives.
It's a common assignment.
It's a common assignment.
Yeah.
But like that's, but my point is I worked at that school.
I was an adjunct there just so you know that junk doesn't happen.
It's unrealistic in America.
Like that's unrealistic.
And so, but in God's not dead, that happens.
And so then the professor's like, oh yeah, well go teach the class.
So he does, lets a student teach his class for the next several weeks and the student teaches them apologetics, which is insane.
(29:43):
That wouldn't happen.
Like you would straight up.
No.
Lose your job.
Someone would get reported.
Oh my gosh.
And then happened in a class that I went to college in and then I was getting taught for four weeks by like a student.
I would be calling the, the academic's office.
Oh, but he's got tenure.
You can do.
No, people don't do that man.
Gosh, academic integrity.
But then the craziest junk was the end.
(30:06):
So spoiler for people haven't seen it.
So it's like 10 years old.
So yeah, buy it on DVD.
It's on y'all right now.
It's on y'all, but like he is running like this one kid is running to a news boys concert and you see.
Yeah, yeah, because everybody's just freaking.
They're going to see the news boys.
You know what I mean?
Of course.
Nothing against the news boys, but they're acting like they're Taylor Swift or something.
Right.
(30:27):
Anyways, they're running there and the atheist professor is crossing the street.
And then gets hit by a car and then the pastor, one of the pastors there was there and everybody's like freaking out.
Oh my gosh, what's going on?
And he's like the pastor goes, Hey, no, backup, backup creates a circle and like and with, with the, you know, the professor just got hit and he's like bleeding out in the middle of the street.
Oh, the professor got hit.
(30:48):
The professor got hit.
Oh, okay.
He's like, backup, back up.
And then he like, he kneels down.
Do you want to accept Jesus as your own personal savior?
Shut your mouth.
No, you remember that?
I never haven't seen the movie because I don't even, I have a really hard time watching it.
So I think the professor gets saved and then dies and then they die.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
(31:09):
I'm just thinking this is a perfect example.
So like they did a good job of actually speaking apologetics in there.
Like the arguments they were making were fine.
Yeah.
But the situation itself is not happening.
It's so incredibly unrealistic that like any non-Christians going to see that and they're going to be like Christians think of themselves this way in this world.
Yeah.
(31:30):
That's insane.
It's also people like I've seen comments made that were like Christians, you're not oppressed.
Like, yeah, look, I mean, specifically in like the US, right?
Because obviously Christians are oppressed in other areas, but in the US, which is where we are, right?
And so it's like you're not, you are, you are enforcing oppression on yourself.
This doesn't happen.
Like, like why are you training to, to, to argue with your professor that's never once going to ask you to do that?
(31:54):
Exactly.
Oh man.
Pumping your mental iron to try and dispute your tenured professor in a way that would never happen in real life.
It's crazy.
I just, I just looked it up just to verify the professor gets hit by a car at the end of it and dies, but not before he becomes a Christian.
All right.
Anyways, he's like, I watched a student speak in my front of my class for four weeks and now I want to love God.
(32:16):
Yeah.
Because he got hit as people were rushing to see the news boys.
It's like, bro, come on, man.
See the news?
I just, it's so un-serious.
It's so crazy.
It's like, it's like, how should I be offended as an artist for the bad artistry or as a Christian for the bad demonstration and story of the witness of Jesus?
You know what I'm saying?
Like, oh my gosh.
So like you have movies like Les Mis who explain grace in such a beautiful way.
(32:42):
Like the musical Les Mis, not meant to be Christian, but there's an explanation of grace.
Yeah.
Such a beautiful way.
You have all these like artists that are awesome like like Terrence Malick who's a Christian who does these like really deep rich things.
Tim Hawkinson is a great Christian artist.
You have bands like Switchfoot.
You know what I mean?
I love Switchfoot.
There's a bunch of, and even like Christians that are, or bands and stuff that are unapologetically Christian.
(33:05):
Yeah.
That like will just not be corny about it.
Like Mav City.
Like if you see them talking to anyone, their respect, they're just normal.
They're not, they're not mad corny about it.
It's like they understand the way the world actually works and they understand the good news in the midst of this world.
Right.
So that's the question of like, does the gospel get messed up when we catchify everything and portray the gospel to a world that doesn't really exist?
(33:31):
Right.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Our last question then is, does this give us a new perspective on misinformation?
Is it mostly based on a reductionism of kitsch or our actual lies and false truths being presented?
I think it's probably both.
Yeah.
But those false truths and lies kind of exist in kitschified realities.
Right.
(33:52):
You know what I mean?
What do you think?
I would agree.
I think it's easier to, I mean, this, this kitchenification, the reductionism of it when it, it's helpful or it's like, it feels like, oh yeah, I'll accept something that feels easy to accept.
Yeah.
I feel like that's general humans, like, especially if you're not like, some people are not, don't not love super deep thinking.
They do not like that.
That's not their ministry.
(34:13):
And then there's other people who like, they get their degrees in philosophy because they love the deep thinking.
Right.
And so, but I think a general medium of everyone would be like, yeah, I like to accept things that make sense and are simple and I can understand it.
And so I feel like that's why it's important as believers to make sure that we're not so much being like, oh, I'll accept everything that is simple and easy to me because that's going to make me feel better.
(34:38):
It's like, no, the Bible is pretty complex.
The Bible is very complex.
And the world is too.
And the world is very complex and sim simplicity can be a false comfort because it makes us feel like we understand more than we do.
And we, but I think that I think we have to be willing to do that in all areas like politically, academically, like be willing to engage with more than just the people who agree with what we agree with or the things that make sense to us.
(35:05):
Like, I think that we need to be people who engage outside of just the kitsch of, oh, everything is really easy to understand when you present it to me in this manner.
This comes down to like the main point of even our podcast.
You know, in my ethics class, some classes that I teach, one of my main goals is for students to learn why the arguments of another side actually makes sense.
(35:29):
Not that they should necessarily agree with them, but why they make sense.
Because once they even come to a point of understanding the other side, what happens is I see them being more gracious, being more empathetic, still saying, okay, I disagree on these points here, but I know where you're coming from.
You're not actually crazy.
And that is a un-kitchified way of looking at it.
(35:50):
Yeah, that's actually makes it a little more complicated and digs in a little deeper.
It is room for nuance, but nuance and clarity within the nuance of like why you're holding what you're doing, but then also just a general sense of clarity.
It's like, it's like everybody in Jesus day demonized lepers and prostitutes and tax collectors, but Jesus saw them.
He understood why they were where they were and then showed them a way out of it.
(36:18):
It's like you saw them where they were at.
It's like the rest of his day, kitchified everything.
Yeah, it's real simple to write people off.
To write them off.
It's actually quite hard and difficult to engage with people.
And that's exactly what Jesus did.
And it's what us as Christians are called to do.
And we're called to do.
So I think, you know, how does this affect us doing ministry today? Take some time to explain things.
(36:40):
Slow down, be authentic.
We know how important authenticity is for Gen Z and for everybody.
Take time to actually love people and meet them where they're at.
It doesn't mean, remember when Jesus met the woman at the well, he called her out her whole everything.
He read the, read the mail.
Yeah.
You've been with five men.
He said the whole nine yards, she was like, oh my gosh, he knows me.
(37:03):
But then he said, but then he showed compassion.
He showed grace.
He showed mercy.
Yeah.
But then what do you say at the end of this encounter and other encounters that he does, go and sin no more.
Yeah.
So there's this speaking of truth, but only when he was in the mud with them.
Yeah.
When he was in the complexity of the situation with them, he was able to show them the light out of whatever that is.
(37:25):
Yeah.
Yeah, let's be nuanced.
Let's not complicate things in order to complicate them.
Yeah.
We recognize the fact that some things are very complicated.
Yeah.
It is a noble endeavor to engage in what is complicated about people and relationships and our faith and bring truth to those things.
Our minds are complicated.
Our bodies are complicated.
Our social relations are complicated.
(37:47):
These things all have so many multifaceted aspects about them that have shaped us and malformed us in many ways when they're not, you know, in God and stuff like that.
But getting in the mud there, knowing this messiness and seeing what's going on, that's when we can meet people and show them Christ.
Yep.
I love this conversation.
(38:08):
I thought it was super interesting.
Yeah.
We'll put some good info for you guys in the show notes.
And now you can be empowered to use the word kitsch and kitchen vacation and regular conversations with people.
Yeah.
Get ready to explain it for the next 12 minutes after you.
Yeah, exactly.
But you will get to drop it in a conversation.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, we'll see you next time. This was brought to you by the School of Theology and Ministry at Life Pacific University.
(38:32):
See you next time.
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