September 12, 2023 • 49 mins
Ever wondered about the journey of a Kiwi business trying to break into the US market? Join me as we peel back the layers of this complex process with Ruth Macleod, the Trade Commissioner for New Zealand Trade and Enterprise. Ruth offers us a peek into her own life journey, her unique experiences and how they led her to her current position in San Francisco. She also shares enlightening insights about the perception of Kiwi businesses in the US, especially in the tech sector. Thanks to New Zealand's reputation for honesty and straightforwardness, it seems doors are opening for Kiwi businesses in the US.
Venturing into international business comes with its own set of challenges and opportunities. Ruth and I delve into Michael Siebel's advice on crafting compelling pitches and how Kiwi businesses can leverage their inherent realism, pragmatism, and honesty to their advantage. Ruth also shares how NZTE supports businesses entering new markets, from dealing with structural and tax implications to hiring and marketing strategies. We discuss the importance of building strong relationships and the incredible resources provided by the Beachheads advisory network.
Finally, we touch upon the importance of understanding AI in tech businesses, especially when raising capital. We explore how HubSpot is investing in AI and how businesses can use this to empower their teams. Throughout our discussion, the vital role of building relationships within the entrepreneurial space keeps cropping up. With this wealth of insights packed into our discussion, whether you are a budding entrepreneur or an established business owner, you'll find plenty to learn and apply in your own journey. Tune in to hear Ruth’s inspiring journey and gain a world of knowledge about the opportunities and challenges Kiwi businesses face in the US market.
Hear how some of Australasia's most interesting and successful people are utilising People, Technology and Processes to live a productive life.
For more information on Lee Stevens visit www.leestevens.co
Sponsored by workforcery.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Time and Motion podcast with me, your
host, lee Stevens.
For over 25 years, I've workedwith businesses all over the
world to improve the technologyand the people within them.
In this podcast, I share someof my experiences and I chat to
guests who generously sharetheir stories of how to or, in
some cases, how not to live aproductive life.
I hope you enjoy the show.
(00:28):
Ruth McLeod, welcome to theshow.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Thanks for having me, Lee.
I'm very excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
And you are in the sunny US of A.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I am.
I'm based in the Greater BayArea in San Francisco.
I've been here since July 2020and, for those following along,
it wasn't the greatest of timesto be moving to the States
Doesn't sound like it was Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
So before we get going, who are you?
What do you do and how do youend up in US of A when you've
got a strong chemical accent?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
That's strong.
So, as I said, ruth McLeod, I'mthe Trade Commissioner for New
Zealand Trade and Enterprise,based in San Francisco.
So for those of you who haven'theard of New Zealand Trade and
Enterprise, it's the GovernmentEconomic Development Agency and
our job is to help Kiwicompanies grow bigger, better,
faster, for the good of NewZealand.
Part two of your question howdid I come to be here?
(01:31):
I've worked at NZT since thedawn of time.
I have a standard joke, whichis if anyone's watched Jurassic
Park, you know, with that scenewith the Jeep and the doors and
Sam Neal, if you look really,really closely, you'll find me.
You won't.
I've said that joke before andpeople mistook me for actually
being in the movie.
I wasn't, but it was just toillustrate that I've been at NZT
since 2003.
(01:52):
So I started with him in NewYork, spent five years in New
York, then back to New Zealand.
We'd had a son by that stage,so I wanted him to be around
whanau.
And then this opportunity cameup and yeah, we jumped at it.
We didn't know that there wasgoing to be a pandemic because
we didn't have a crystal ball.
But hey, that was three yearsago.
So here we are.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Fantastic.
And before that early life,what was early life like for you
?
Where did you go up?
What did you do?
Where was that Sure?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Well, I grew up in Auckland, tamaki Makaurau, and I
was one of six children.
How personal do we get there onthis podcast?
Because I can you know.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
As personal as you want to get Roof.
Personally, you want to getOkay, excellent.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
So I was one of six children, had a great upbringing
, but it was marred by the factthat my father died when I was
four and my mother raised sixchildren under the age of 20.
So, yeah, that was tough forher, but I my hat's off to her.
She's since passed away at theripe old age of 87, but I'm
growing up without a dad waspretty tough.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
I can imagine it was, and which part of Auckland,
papakura, and then so education.
So what did education consistof for you?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, my mother was big on education.
She actually my entire familybar me grew up in Scotland, so
I'm a first-gen Kiwi.
She was big on education.
Her family couldn't afford tosend her to medical school so
she became a nurse instead.
So that was very much drummedinto us and I had the good
fortune of going to St CupboardsCollege in Auckland from the
(03:24):
age of 11.
So that was a really greatgrounding in.
Before girl power was a thing,it was girl power.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
First job.
First job was at Xeroxphotocopying when I was about 15
, but at university I did workfor a chicken company and this
is before automation and I had asummer job on the deboning line
, so in a freezer for threemonths cutting up chickens.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Okay, and then decided that wasn't the life for
you.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
It wasn't the life for me.
I was doing a BA B Com atuniversity.
So that took me five yearsrather than four, because when I
started I thought I wanted tobe a lawyer, but then I took
calculus and so failed pre-lawand was very bitter in my second
year and so the whole BA B Com,which was in political science
management, took five years.
(04:23):
So after university, you know,for me, we well, my generation
Gen X we were the firstgeneration in New Zealand to
have fees associated withuniversity.
So while many of mypredecessors would jump in a
combi and go and work in a pub,we graduated with student loan
(04:44):
debt, a lot of us so quickly wewere really focused on getting
work.
I tried to get some work in NewZealand.
That didn't pan out.
I met my now husband.
We moved to Melbourne.
I was in Melbourne for fiveyears, had various roles at
Telstra and quite interestingrole at Telstracom when they
thought they were going to beonline everything.
Then I moved to Munich becausemy husband got a job opportunity
(05:07):
, landed in Munich in 2002.
And for the historians that'snot a good time to land in
Munich when you don't speakGerman.
So I couldn't get a job in myfield, which at that point was
project management and IT really.
So I ended up, completelyunqualified, teaching English to
executives and my lesson planswere written for me.
(05:29):
But I my first lesson was witha group of execs from Deutsche
Bank.
I knew I was in trouble when Iwalked into the lesson and they
were reading the Wall StreetJournal.
I thought I'm cooked, but I hada lot of fun doing that.
Should I keep going?
I feel like I'm on a roll here.
Very good, carry on, yeah.
So after Germany, again there'sa recurring pattern.
(05:51):
My husband got posted to NewYork and he said do you want to
go?
And I said, if they speakEnglish, please, and moved to
New York.
Took a long time to get a jobthere, actually.
So in 2003, new York was prettystill very muted after 9-11.
But this is where I found myway into NZTE, starting off kind
of an events consular role, andthen my kind of NZTE stint
(06:15):
started.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
And like a lot of Kiwi couples, a lot of couples
around the world, obviouslyyou're a team, right, and you
share responsibilities with,with parenting and earning and
socialising, et cetera.
So you know, for for him doinghis role, you know, we that was,
you know, I think that was thatwas probably like a lot of us
do, right, we go actually aspart of Team Stevens or Team
Cloud or whatever that might bethe team and you you do, you
(06:39):
help each other out and you findyour way.
So, but that that's quite acommon thing, right, you know,
especially in the, you know, Ithink since 2000, actually,
people are more inclined to goaround the world and people say,
oh, you're following yourpartner, but you're not, You're
doing it as a family, you'relearning new experiences and
sounds like that was the casefor you guys.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yeah, that was and it wasn't always easy and I, you
know, in diplomatic circles theycall it the trailing spouse,
which is a terrible, terribleterm.
But I think for me, you know,some of the decisions we made
were squarely for my husband'scareer and that was tough
because it did put me in theback seat.
But what I recognized is that,if you know, from a from a
(07:16):
relationship point of view, Ican't hold a grudge because I I
said yes, let's do it.
So I can't hold the grudge.
That's just not helpful for ourrelationship.
But you know, 21 year old me,might, might second guess some
of those decisions to be to bebrutally honest.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, okay, so in New York, and that's when you first
got involved with VINZTE.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
So how did that come about?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Look, it was the old fashioned way, lee.
I didn't know anyone, but Ijust applied and they had quite
a rigorous or maybe not thatrigorous so I got in, as they
say, but quite a like involvedrecruitment process and work
there for nearly four years inNew York, had my son, so he's
got a US passport.
He's born in Jersey, so he's aJersey boy and, as I said, 2008
(08:04):
came along.
We decided to go back to NewZealand.
Our son was 18 months old.
We wanted him to be grow uparound final.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
And do you think there's been kind of way over
the last say 20, 25 years?
From my understanding, there'sbeen waves where Kiwis go off
and you know for differentreasons, but generally where
it's financial, where it's adancing economy, but there's
these waves.
But when we're seeing it alittle bit at the moment, right,
you know where Kiwis are goingoff and going to Australia and
America and England et cetera.
(08:33):
But that's just for me.
That's just like the people Ispeak to and the friends I've
got.
That's just part of the DNA,that's part of the Kiwi culture.
So do you think that's kind ofingrained into you as well,
where you kind of knew that youwanted to go travel and see the
world and you know you're partof those Kiwis that go exploring
?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I think so, but you know, as I mentioned before, I
think the bigger difference isand anyone who's pre-GenX can
correct me on this but I thinkthe biggest difference is,
whereas pre-student loans andI'll put pre-student loans and
post-student loans, sopre-student loans, I feel like
people were out there exploringmindset and they wanted to go
overseas and get in the combivan and do the contiki and they
(09:08):
may or may not fall into careerswhen they're doing that.
I think post-student loanpeople were focused.
I myself had a $20,000 loan,which was relatively reasonable
back in the 90s, but I thinkthat's what's changed.
For me, lee, is that peoplecome out with a student loan,
they think, well, maybe I'll getsome.
You know, get my, get somescars a couple of years in New
(09:29):
Zealand, then I'll go offshore,and I think a lot of it is
actually to do with heck, how amI going to pay this student
loan back?
Yes, we're still explorers, butI think it's also very
pragmatic.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
How do I get rid of this loan fast?
Yep, okay, so NZTE 2003.
Yeah, what was the purpose ofthat organization then, and what
is it now?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, it's always been the same, I think NZTE
again any fact checkers therewho want to correct me I think
we came into being in 2001,.
There were two differentagencies at the time.
One focused on domesticcapability building, one focused
on helping companies export.
They came together as NewZealand Trade and Enterprise.
We were always about helpingcompanies grow internationally.
(10:11):
I think what we saw with PeteCrispus still the CEO now.
He came in with a very clearpurpose and he spent a lot of
time making sure everybodyunderstood that our purpose was
really to grow companies, as Isaid, bigger, better, faster,
for the good of New Zealand.
So our orientation, what wetalk about, how we work, is
squarely thinking about that NewZealand company and how we can
(10:33):
wrap around and support them.
Because, let's face it, anyonewho's going offshore, you have
to be gutsy, maybe a little bitcrazy.
You have to be certainly gutsyto take on if I think about the
US the world's most competitivemarket.
So our job is to really helpcompanies navigate that and
really put them in touch withothers that have done before
(10:53):
them and put them in touch withsmart people that can guide them
.
That's what we're there to do.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
We'll talk about tech in a moment, but if I go think
about 20 years ago, I'm guessingthat what was being exported
was probably a little bitdifferent as well, and so I'm
guessing the usual suspects,like Dairy and all of the wine
and the green stuff we growright here in New Zealand, would
have been probably the focus.
(11:20):
So is that the case, and howhas that changed over the last
20 years?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, I mean it's changed dramatically and really,
probably in the last five toseven years we've seen it
accelerate.
So tech is now the secondlargest export earner for New
Zealand, which is phenomenal.
And the other kind of factoid Ilove about tech is that
Auckland is now home, per capita, for the most game developers
in the world.
So, and what we're seeing now,what I'm certainly seeing, is
(11:48):
repeat.
We're not a repeat offendersI'll call them that, but I think
they are.
The other term is serialentrepreneurs.
So we're seeing people who mayhave sold out in 2006, 2007, and
they're now on advisory boards,the directors.
They're reinvesting.
So I think that's the bigchange for me, that people with
experience are coming back intothe ecosystem, giving back to
the ecosystem and also investingand growing new businesses.
(12:11):
And that's, you know, that'sstarting to really build
momentum and tech in particular.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
What do you think the perception of Kiwi businesses
is in the US?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I think it depends on whatsector you're referring to, but
I'm going to talk to tech, whichI know a bit better than the
others.
That's where my team's focus is.
Look, I think we the US,broadly doesn't really care
about the origin story when itcomes to tech, except that New
(12:43):
Zealand has a very goodreputation for being honest,
straightforward, easy to dealwith, so that's a real plus.
But when it comes down to it,that might get your foot in the
door.
But then, of course, like anybusiness decision doesn't make
sense.
What's the ROI?
What's the integration pathway,All those things.
But I think, on the whole, newZealand is.
(13:04):
I had somebody say to me yearsago and I think this is a really
clever way to think about it hesaid that New Zealand is the O
type blood of business.
They're accepted everywhere,and I think that's absolutely
true for the US and people areintrigued by New Zealand.
If I had a dollar for everytime someone said it's on my
bucket list, which is a greatthing.
Right, we are on someone'sbucket list.
(13:25):
It's a very good start.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
So you mentioned techs, your focus.
Was that just a natural thingthat evolved?
Because as we export here fromNew Zealand, it's easy to do
that and obviously it's digital,etc.
But you mentioned it's numbertwo.
Number one is still primary.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
It's still very, it's still very right, Very yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
With the kind of shift towards tech and the focus
, how have NZTE had to changeand how has, as an organization
you know, have?
What have you had to startthinking about?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, I think that the key thing is we've really
had to think about our talentand how we specifically support
tech companies right, becausethere's a business model and
there's a pattern, there's avernacular that is typical of
tech.
So we've had to think about whowe recruit so that they can
come alongside businesses.
We've also had to think aboutsome of our programs and
(14:22):
developing them specifically fortech.
Just coming to the States, Iran the International Beachheads
program, so we recognized anumber of years ago that our
bench strength of advisorswasn't strong enough in tech.
So how do we bring more techsmarts around the table really?
So the orientation has beenokay.
(14:44):
What do we need to supportthese companies?
What's the talent?
What are the programs?
Who are the people we need toattract?
The programs that are moreone-to-one oriented?
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And how do businesses engage, ruth?
Because obviously, if you're anearly stage startup, or even at
the idea stage, or you'rethinking about a startup and a
tech start, for that matter,what's the best way for a
business to engage with NZT?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, literally is to call our 0800 number, which I
don't have off the top of myhead.
It's literally that no that'sfine, we can do it, and I think
the thing Leigh, though, is thatwe aren't necessarily always
the right answer depending onwhere your business is at.
So if you're really incubationstage, you might be better
served by Callahan orbusinessgov, but our customer
(15:26):
advisory team, who'll answerthat call or answer your email,
are in a position to direct youto where it's most suitable for
you at the time.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Okay, so let's talk about some of the success
stories in the US in the techsector.
Who, in your opinion, have theybeen?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah, I think Parkerville comes to mind.
I mean there are a lot, I'm notpicking favorites, but
Parkerville's top of mind, leigh, because we saw the team last
week.
I think what they've donereally, really well is, when
they came to the US they camewith a loose hypothesis about
what might it take to succeedhere, but they weren't fixed on
(16:05):
it.
So three or four years ago theycame to us and said we think
we're applying our B2C model aspeople would know it in New
Zealand.
We think that's the space forus to play.
Can you help us decide if thatis in fact the space to play?
They went through a programthat we offer through UCLA Gap,
got a whole bunch of researchdone and it was clear that the
B2C space was already reallycrowded here and that caused
(16:29):
them to pivot towards B2B.
Where they are today and I think, cut to four years later a lot
of blood, sweat and toil fromToby and Brody and the team.
They've now won globalcontracts with Metta.
They're in discussions withother very large tech companies
University of Cambridge, Banksand Australia and New Zealand
(16:49):
and they're going about theirgrowth really thoughtfully,
bringing on excellent people whoare all and I guess this is
something I see in Parkable.
Who've all got this spirit andentrepreneur outlook that just
pervades that culture.
So I'm really bullish onParkable.
It's a hard space.
(17:10):
They're in the commercialproperty space.
So anyone following along inthe US, particularly in San
Francisco, that's a hard marketto be in, but they've got a
compelling proposition.
Yeah, jordan Black, okay.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
So what would you say ?
Some of the common mistakesthat Kiwi businesses, and Aussie
businesses for that matter,make when they're trying to
tackle the US or trying to getsome sort of traction over there
?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, I think it's similar to the Parkable story.
But I think what people mightunderestimate is the need for
focus over here.
So you might have a template inAustralia and New Zealand that
works really well.
You're across multipleindustries and that works.
And you do that for very goodreasons, because the size of
either market is not big enoughto sustain a laser focus.
(17:58):
When you come to the US, thatdoesn't work as well because the
market is just so much bigger.
So if I think about the termniche, I think it means
something quite different in NewZealand than it does in the US.
So niche to me means small,means maybe a small total
addressable market.
It means you're not going tomake a lot of money.
But niche over here just meansfocus.
(18:20):
So the example I always give isone of Pushpay.
So Pushpay, new Zealand ChurchManagement and Payment Software
Company.
They sold this year to aprivate equity firm in Melbourne
for $1.6 billion and they werefocused on a niche in the US.
But that niche was churches.
And if they focused on a nichein New Zealand their TAM would
be $4,000.
(18:42):
But their TAM in the US is$400,000.
So they threw a lot of trialand error, landed on the church
niche and said we're going toput all our wood behind just
churches and when I say justchurches it's $400,000 of them.
So back to your question.
I think there's a lot to bekind of gleaned from that, which
is they pointed everything, whothey hired, their brand, their
(19:06):
marketing, their pitching to aspecific ICP and really nailed
that.
But what I see is companiescoming with that New Zealand,
australian template of multipleindustries and saying I'm just
going to plop that down.
So I was talking to a companyrecently and they've got
fantastic technology and they'vesaid we want to tackle defense
utilities and the hospitalsystem and I just said no,
(19:29):
you're not.
I was a bit blunt becauseunless you've got unlimited
marketing budget, unless you'vegot unlimited product
development resources, that's areally, really impossible task.
So maybe start with utilitiesand maybe just narrow it down to
is it one utility, is it Texas,utilities in Texas and building
(19:51):
?
Use that as your beach and thenbuild and grow.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, I think some of the other mistakes I sent
talking to founders as well,especially over here in New
Zealand, is when they tackle theUS they don't appreciate the
scale and the size.
So some of the best bits ofadvice I've been giving is pick
a state maybe to start off with,and just because that's like,
that one state is probably still20 times bigger than New
Zealand, so, if not more, so Ithink that's probably some
(20:16):
common issue.
Another question I was going toask you was around product
market fit and validation.
So it still amazed me how manybusinesses kind of skip that
stage and we might have been oneof those businesses, but that's
a different conversation.
But how is that the case andwhat can businesses do to make
sure they do good validation andthey kind of start making that
(20:39):
journey towards product marketfit?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, I think that the key is getting here and, you
know, finding those initialpeople that will have
conversations with you.
But I think it's a mindsetthing.
I interviewed somebody lastyear and he had some really good
advice.
He said don't think of year oneas revenue in the US.
(21:02):
If you set your sights on theUS, don't think year one I'm
going to get revenue.
Think year one is going to be alearning year.
So, if you can get here orremotely, you know, find people
on LinkedIn who you think areyour ideal customer.
Reach out to them.
Find out who you know thatknows that person.
Reach out, have a conversation.
You're not selling at thatpoint and for that first year
(21:23):
sounds like a luxury.
It'll pay back in spades.
If that first year you canreally do that from afar or,
better still, here, you're in amuch better position to
understand if that productmarket fit is realistic.
And, really importantly, howshould you be showing up at
market?
What should you be saying?
What are the hot buttons?
All that good stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
So for people listen to this thinking, that sounds
great.
I'm on the next plane out toSan Francisco.
How practical is that?
The roof.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily.
That wouldn't be the firstthing I do.
The first thing I do is get onLinkedIn.
If you're not a LinkedIn user,now's the time to really start.
What's your brand look like onLinkedIn?
What's your personal brand?
And people are amazinglyreceptive.
And the good thing about Kiwisand we've got a phone company
that attests to this you knowtwo degrees.
(22:11):
You'll find there are a millionKiwi pastoral holders
internationally, a millionoutside of New Zealand.
So you're most likely to find aKiwi somewhere that knows
somebody and can make that warmintroduction for you.
And one of the shout outs I'llgive actually is to Kiya, new
Zealand.
If you don't know Kiya, checkout their website.
That is.
(22:32):
The purpose of Kiya is toconnect Kiwis with other Kiwis
offshore and they've got thisfantastic matching service or
connection service that actuallyyou can do that.
I want to know about X.
Who knows about X?
Can you connect me?
So the LinkedIn Kiya friendsand family, colleagues, peers
you'll be amazed when you say Ineed to find out about this.
(22:52):
Who can help me?
How many people will actuallyhelp you so that you don't have
to buy a ticket just yet.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Okay, so next question.
So one of the big hot topicslast week at Sazda, which is the
Global Saz conference, wasaround money, and a year ago
they were starting to slow down.
There was less money around forinvesting and I think the key
takeaway I took was that there'sa slight recovery now and maybe
(23:20):
there's slightly more moneythan it was a year ago or at the
start of 2023.
So how would you summarize theVC and kind of the investment
market for Kiwis thinking theymight want to raise some money
over in the States at the moment?
Speaker 2 (23:36):
This is not my area of expertise.
I won't get over my skis, butwhat I will say is that New
Zealand companies have neverattracted crazy multiples of
valuations.
So I think now is the time ifyou've got a compelling
proposition, and a shout out toMichael Siebel if anybody's on
LinkedIn, track down MichaelSiebel, managing partner Y
(23:58):
Combinator, who gives abrilliant talk on what to
include in your pitch.
But I think now is the timebecause Kiwi companies are, you
know, maybe to their detriment.
They're realistic, pragmatic,honest, straightforward.
This is what we're hearing theVC community wants.
They don't want jazz hands.
They don't want ridiculousprojections that may or may not
come true.
So I think, if you're lookingto raise cash, now is a really
(24:22):
good time.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah, and I think my takeaway from that was no matter
what environment or whateconomic timeline you're in,
that, there's always money for agood idea, right?
Yeah, yeah.
That's right, that was easilythe best talk.
I'll put the link in the shownotes.
But, yeah, it's going to see ifyou for anyone looking to raise
money, or even if you're notlooking to raise money, if
you're doing a startup.
(24:45):
For me, that is should be thetemplate for how you need to run
your business in a lot of ways.
Right, yeah, he was fantastic.
Okay, so let's go back to NZTE.
So what are some of the otherways that you're helping Kiwi
businesses over there?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Yeah, probably.
I mean there's lots of, lots ofdifferent ways.
So if you think about abusiness you know setting up in
a new market, so right from, howdo I?
What structure do I need?
What are my, what are the taximplications of, of setting up
over here?
Who do I hire?
How do I hire?
What do I have to be thinkingabout when I hire?
So everything that you thinkabout running a business that
you might have set up in NewZealand, we can support you with
(25:19):
that through our own advisorynetwork or referrals out to
other providers who are experts.
I mean US tax.
Goodness me, no one tries to bean expert in that, so those are
kind of the fundamental sort ofoperational things.
But also I think one of thejewels in our crown is the Beach
Sheds advisory network and youknow, one of my achievements was
was working on that for anumber of years and love them to
(25:41):
pieces, All the advisorsequally.
Some are definitely morefavorite than others, but the
Beach Sheds advisory network isa group of individuals who, in
this case, based in the US,who've got great US experience,
who can navigate all the thingsI mentioned but also really give
it on the ground perspectiveabout things like pricing and
product market fit and marketingand what's, what's my digital
(26:05):
footprint need to look like.
So again, anything to do withyour growing your business, as
you thought about as anentrepreneur in New Zealand.
We can support with aspects ofthat through our networks and
through our team.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Okay, is any particular areas you feel that
are underutilized?
Maybe should be leverage betterpop businesses.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
I think for me, and you know, shout out to the Kiwi
SaaS community.
I think that the biggest thingthat, if you know, if I was an
entrepreneur and I never havebeen and I'm acutely aware of it
but I think what I would bedoing based on what I know now,
is I'd be reaching out to mypeers like all the time
obnoxiously slow.
(26:44):
So in terms of underutilized,nzt does make these connections
between companies.
But I think that you know, ifwe all had that mindset and I'm
just going to take a littlesegue here, if you just bear
with when I went back to NewZealand for the first time after
being in New York, people wouldsay what's the difference
between a Kiwi founder and a anda US founder?
(27:05):
And I'd say, well, myobservation is that the US
founder you might incubatesomething in his garage, quote
unquote but really quickly he orshe will say who's smarter than
me?
Who's done it before?
Who can I bring into my circleso that this idea gets legs,
(27:25):
either flames or just fliesright.
I think we're getting better atthis in New Zealand, but I think
our tendency is to incubate abit too long, to stay in the
metaphorical garage a bit toolong.
So I think the big unlock wouldbe if we all had that mindset
of who's smarter than me, who'sdone it before, who can I talk
to, because I know you'd havehad this experience.
(27:47):
When you ask that question, lee, of others people will go sure
I'll help.
I'll give you half an hour.
Then you should speak to Sharonor Bob.
They'll also give you half anhour.
Before you know it, you've gota whole group of people who are
invested in your success.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yeah, I think that was for me when we talked about
difference between Aussies andKiwis, but I think the
similarities is just so, sosimilar in their mindset as well
.
And I think you're absolutelyright.
The amount of people that youreach out to and a lot of very
humble, good humans, I think isthe most overused term.
I've seen them for the last Iknow everyone's linked in the
(28:20):
post the last couple of days,but it's probably very apt,
right.
You know, people were just verynice people and I'm pretty
certain that, regardless of whathappens, we've worked for
Surrey and even if going toBrisbane and people stopped
talking to me for that for alittle while, but there'd be
people you'd be able to pick upthe phone to or drop an email to
go.
I need some help in this, oryou've been thinking about this
why, and I think you'd get thathelp, but I don't think you
(28:43):
would get that in the UK.
I don't think you'd get it inthe US.
If I'm being completely honest,I think that was quite obvious
that the scale that people playat the if they kind of, I don't
think it's intentional, but youknow the reality is you're
playing at a different level,right?
So you know, if you're a 300million dollar business yeah,
300 million dollars of ARR,you're not gonna have much in
common with a 10 million dollarbusiness that's from Australia
(29:04):
or New Zealand.
So I don't yeah so, but I thinkthe people is what it boils
down to a lot of yeah, and Ithink that the asking, asking
for input, help.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Whatever you want to say I think if, if you're
vulnerable enough again and I'veused where, I'm sorry about
that but if you, you know youneed to ask because people will.
In the key, we can text Giveyou that, give me the time to
day yeah, I think you mentionedkey.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
We said it's a big shout out to Brett and Kim and
all those those guys and girlskind of running those events and
really driving awareness aboutyou know says and especially
that there's great in thatcommunity.
I am, one of the ideas I talkedabout with Brett was last week
was actually you could actuallyplot this out from a cycle, from
(29:51):
a.
I got this idea through tovalidation, through to Raising
some money for serious a seriesbeing essentially that says
napkin, right, but there's a bitbefore it was one.
I said to him there we go, thatshould actually life cycle and
if you can explain that topeople, because I think a lot of
startups and a lot of techstartups we spoke about this
last week they get so much badadvice from people that have
(30:13):
never you know, never gone onand taken on the world.
They never give it a crack.
And my, my job is my words.
No one else is that.
I used to get very frustratedwith the gray hair, gray suit,
gray mentality of some of theseadvisors that were we're
knocking around as professionaladvisors and so that's not a dig
at any of those in particular,but it was just.
When you speak to an advisor.
(30:33):
You want someone has been andgot the t-shirt right or at
least had a cracker, and youwant to learn from their
failings.
And I guess that's some ofthose people that haven't done
that and give this shenan andvice very loosely.
In my opinion, I don't thinkthey're in a position to be able
to give that advice.
But you know, I think withpeople like Kiwi says, and NZT,
and you know all that good workyou can see you guys doing, I
(30:55):
think you know business is goingto be far better position than
maybe we're five, ten years agoto get that voice.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting.
You should say that because Iwas involved with beach heads
for a number of years and wewent through iterations of that
model and it was originally adragon's den kind of model yeah.
I was happy to find it withquestions and generally make
them feel really inadequate andbeaten up and we realize guess
(31:20):
what?
That's not actually helpinganybody.
So we switch for a promoteadvisory here's what you should
do model to much more givingalongside coaching model.
You know, because as you and Italked about last week, lee, you
know someone's giving youadvice and they can't hope
unless they're living next toyou, breathing next to you.
They can't hope to know whatyou know about your business In
(31:42):
the context of your business.
It's really impossible whatthey can be really good at, what
I think our beach is a verygood at asking questions to help
you think through your ownbusiness.
So you know that was a reallyimportant pivot for beach heads
and it paid paid dividendsbecause people felt like
Advisors were getting alongsidethem.
In fact we toyed with changingthe name because they're not
(32:04):
really advise.
Is there sort of coaches andquestion askers?
But I don't coach.
Doesn't seem right either.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, I think the other thing as well is that and
once again, this is just myexperience of coaching in as a
whole people think that coachesand advisors are going to give
you all the answers, and I thinkthe reality is they're not.
The answers are going to comefrom within, but what they're
going to do is ask the rightquestions, that you know they
can be curious and they're goingto get you to come up the
answer because you know youpeople said right, okay, how do
(32:30):
you make my business 100 million?
It's not going to work, right.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
So yeah, yeah, I know there's no, there's no silver
bullet.
And I think sometimes we dohave businesses coming to us
with we don't ask a specificquestion and they might get a
bit frustrated because, well,maybe that's not the question to
ask, maybe the question isactually over here, but they
really want the silver bullet.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
So we mentioned about that.
Maybe that more of a localmindset you know and not you
know realize is a big world outthere and validating, as you say
, from afar, etc.
Is there any other kind ofcommon things or common mistakes
that you see businesses thatmay be about to make, that you
catch or that you see happen?
You know, happened quite a bit,you know what.
So for anyone listening to getthe masterclass and not what to
(33:13):
do, you know what some of thethings that other businesses you
know when they look intoexpanding to us do.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
We'll just call it a class.
Hey, decide if it's amasterclass.
But I think the other thingthat I see is that You've had
some success in New Zealand andAustralia, right.
So you're feeling pretty boyand bullish and you're going to
take on the US.
I think the mindset I see whichisn't as successful as we're in
(33:38):
scale up mode.
In fact, the mindset you needto be successful is we're an
educated start up in the US.
So I think if you sort of goback to that concept of A little
bit scrappy, no one kind ofknows us.
How do I, how do I think aboutgrowth in the US, as I thought
about growth when I firststarted my business.
I think if you think with thatmentality, that's a pretty big
unlock as well.
(33:58):
And I think where that reallygets gets awkward, shall we say.
If you think you're in scale upmode, you might then try and
hire salespeople in thinkingyou're in scale-up mode, but the
skillset you need is asalesperson or team.
That's really a startup salesteam.
(34:19):
So I think that's where it canget, that's where you see it
actually falling apart.
And I think if you talk to anumber of tech companies that
have set up here, they've madethe wrong initial hires,
thinking they needed a matureaccount executive.
They kind of need a BD or areally technical salesperson.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
So I think that's something to be careful about
and also because this is kind ofa common thing as well is that
a lot of businesses struggle totake it beyond founder sales.
So in the early days it's yourbusiness, it's your baby, every
single bit of that businessinside out, the benefits, you
know how to sell.
But the minute you try andscale up, you obviously need
(35:01):
systems and processes in placeand it needs to be not you
selling and we see that quite abit in any business for that
matter that actually once youtake it beyond the founder and I
was definitely guilty of thatas well in a services business
some time ago but actually whatyou have to do is you have to
sort of go okay, how can wesystemize this and how can we
create a system and a processthat's gonna sell the benefits
(35:22):
rather than go and look howgreat our product is or our
services, right?
Speaker 2 (35:25):
100% and I think that's again it's changing.
But I think we under invest insales ops sales process at New
Zealand, and I can think of acompany that we used to run a
sales service for that veryreason and NZTE, a company
called Ortex.
I'm pretty okay with talkingabout them.
I think they really knew thatthey weren't optimizing their
(35:46):
sales teams and the gap for themwas they didn't have a sales
playbook, so they didn't haveanything documented.
So that meant such a cascadingimpact, right.
So you're onboard a newsalesperson.
How do you train them?
Where's the book?
You didn't have one.
So you're absolutely right, lee.
I think moving through thatgrowth stage and you're maybe at
(36:07):
this point you're onboardingAmericans as well.
So there's a whole culturething to get across.
There's a whole values in whatthe business stands for.
So that onboarding is reallyimportant.
But then here's a playbook ofhow you sell an XYZ company.
If that doesn't exist, do nothire anybody.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, and I think you can those same rules apply for
consulting businesses as wellthat you should have a playbook
for your consultants.
You should have a playbook foryour sales guys, your account
managers you know thereshouldn't be any part of your
business that hasn't beenarticulated to say because
otherwise there's no consistency, right?
And how do you know if yourbecause Jason Lincoln talks to
us about this quite a lot isthat he will often take on two
salespeople at the same time.
(36:46):
Yeah, that's right, because ifthey both failed and it's on you
if one of them fails and maybeit's them, but I think that's
you can apply that methodologyand that playbook to whole
heaper businesses especially.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
New.
Zealand.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
And the other big thing, I guess once again my
opinion, not anyone else's isthat there's still very much
that kind of old school salesmentality in New Zealand.
So if anyone tries to sell yousomething, there's a good chance
they're gonna be wearing a bluesuit, a white shirt, brown tan
shoes and with a bit of chestair showing right and so, yes,
that would have been me a fewyears ago.
But once again, unfortunately,that typical salesperson.
(37:22):
You still see them at theconferences and you still see
them at certain meetings andunfortunately, when they turn up
like that there's you knowstraight away you're thinking
there's not very muchconsistency here.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
But I think, yeah, I think what did I read today on
LinkedIn?
Somebody that this is nottheirs.
I've seen it before.
If you're selling, you'vealready lost.
If you're trying to convincesomebody, you've already lost.
So yeah, I just go back to thatsales process, sales ops kind
of concept.
I think also that there arelots of good, you know,
consultancies and advisors dareI say it out there that can help
(37:57):
you with that.
I think people look at thatkind of challenge and go well, I
don't have one of these.
That sounds quite tough out ofmy area of expertise or whatever
.
It's actually not.
It's really really practical.
Once you get a frameworktogether, it's just about
drawing out from the founderperhaps in your case Lee drawing
out from you how you do it,codifying it and then building,
(38:18):
building, building.
It's not that difficult and ifanybody tells you it is, they're
overselling you.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yeah, 100%, yeah, yeah.
Okay, we mentioned about SanFrancisco and the Valley being
you know where businesses you goto place, and certainly for
tech businesses, it's kind of Iget it.
The talent pools there, theinvestors are there.
You know, if it was say, you'vegot to be in the Bay, but from
what I've seen over the last twoor three years, there's
definitely a trend of businessesmoving away from there, right,
(38:46):
and so you can be in otherplaces.
And so, like you speak topeople, oh no, we're in Denver,
Colorado, and you know we're inMiami.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
We're in Austin, texas, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
And so do you see that trend continuing across the
states when you're more techbusinesses you know, in
different parts of the country,so different reasons.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Yeah, I definitely do .
I mean there's a lot ofpublicity last year about some
of the large corporates movingout of California for tax and
talent purposes.
And thinking about the NewZealand context, there are about
30 New Zealand companies, techand others around Denver, the
Denver, colorado, coloradoSprings area and you know that's
(39:25):
a strategic choice.
It's in the middle of thecountry, really easy access to
East and West Coast.
Costs a lot of cost of talentis slightly lower cost of living
.
If anyone's interested, ifanyone's at that point of
considering where they might setup online, nzt has got a really
great resource for where thetech hubs in the United States.
Where might I actually base?
And we've looked at 25different cities that wouldn't
(39:47):
be necessarily in your frame ofreference, but you know San
Francisco gosh, so expensiveprice of talent.
You know who you're competingagainst.
You're like how would you standout on that talent market?
It's tough.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah, what constitutes a New Zealand
business these days?
Speaker 2 (40:07):
One that is founded, has ownership in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Okay, because, speaking to a few people out
there, I guess what happens isthe child grows the parent right
and since you, before you knowit, the CEO is American and the
founder might have been a Kiwi.
There's a few stories like thatI was catching up on last week,
you go well, are they Kiwibusiness?
I suppose the founder was, butthat's always a tricky question
to ask.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
It is an interesting one From an NZT perspective
because we're a governmentagency.
We're charged with helpingcompanies that are New
Zealand-based, businesses thatreturn profits and tax to New
Zealand.
But they will have absolutely,if you look at zero.
They'll have entities allaround the world and they'll be
paying taxes in those countries,but we look at what's the
return to New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Okay If we just pause and think about the future at
the moment and say, okay, well,what's the future hold?
One of the big things that cameout last week was if you want
any sort of funding, any sort oftech business, there's no
debate that AI needs to play arole in this right.
So have NZT got any kind ofstrong views or opinions on that
(41:16):
, or is it a case of it'ssomething we're going to watch
and be aware of, but we won'thave any sort of, we won't force
the issue.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
No, we haven't come out and taken a position on AI.
What I will say?
You and I attended that sameconference.
What I will say is that it istable stakes, so it's no longer
you know.
You say you have AI and it'sprobably a little bit of a yawn
because you should.
So what's different about yourproposition?
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Yeah, yeah, and I think for me that's put into
context was there was a termwhere, well, we have a
sprinkling of AI.
That was used quite a lot, youknow a few sessions.
It's like a sprinkler of saltor sprinkler of pepper, but what
they're saying is that, youknow, when they say that, people
go oh yeah, we've got thisamazing business, we're tech
business.
Oh, by the way, we've got someAI, because it's the on vogue
(42:02):
ring to say right, whereas youknow what.
And, by the way, if anyone'slistening to this, there's the
says napkin, says funding napkin, which is a thing.
So if you just go and Googlesays funding 2023 or says
funding napkin, and it's a youknow VC that essentially
produces it every year.
But this is the first year, whatthey've done is and they tell
you about what you need to do ateach stage, so, whether you pre
(42:25):
seed, seed series a, series B,and again what the expectations
around numbers, around productmarket fit, around team, but
this is the first year they'veactually added a complete
section at the bottom, which isa clearly defined AI strategy is
needed.
So that's it now.
It's none, and I think it wasDavid Sacks who was the one of
the founder and one of the VCsinvestors.
(42:45):
He said exactly the same thing.
You know it's, it's 85%, andthose are probably aren't doing
it.
It's probably because it's abusiness that doesn't really
need it.
But you know the vast majority.
So AI is definitely sent to beon on the where.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, I mean.
The one thing I will say isthat you know, if people are
sitting there going, how do Iget AI into my business?
Well, if you're, if you're aHubSpot user, hubspot is
investing a ton into AI, so it'snot necessarily that you're
behind, but think about yourpartners in the ecosystem you
operated and how they'releveraging AI, because that will
obviously benefit you.
It's not necessarily about youthinking up the next add on to
(43:20):
chat GPT, for it's about youknow, how am I being enabled?
How's my team?
How are we enabled?
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Yeah, and I think the most obvious and the easiest
one for any business that'smaybe, you know, looking to
raise money is essentially ishow you're going to use AI to
interpret your data.
I think that's the most obviousand easiest one.
You know most people.
It will interpret data andtrends.
You know ways and then someonewould do it for and it's
interesting, even in a HR worldright, you know you can start.
The AI can start seeing thosetrends even better than a human
(43:47):
can.
So that's the way you got tolook at it.
What could it?
Speaker 2 (43:49):
what certainly has big, big data tables you've got
100%, I think, a big data andand, as I said, I'd add to that,
enabling your sales team, right, yeah, and a similar thing,
right.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Yeah, okay.
So what else does do businessesneed to know?
What's so great and amazingabout taking on the US roof for
keyword businesses?
Speaker 2 (44:09):
You'd have heard this before, lee, but I mean, the
size of the prize is potentiallyenormous.
So you know, and it's, there'sa certain cache, I believe, and
saying, hey, we're in the US andwe've got boots on the ground
and we're making a go of it, soit's a really attractive market
to be in.
People are open, open to tryingnew things.
If you've got a compellingproposition, that's going to be
(44:32):
right for that particular ICP,not for everyone, just for that
person you know you're going togo far.
So, yeah, it's a buoyant market.
The recession, of course, ishere, it's in pockets.
But right now, in the Bay Areaagain, despite probably what you
hear, and yes, downtown issuffering at a 30% occupancy
(44:52):
rate, but out in the valley it'sit's, all systems go right.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Yeah, we saw that, as cars still been sold, houses
still been sold, so you wouldn'tnecessarily know there's a
recession going on on there.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
No, not at all.
All right.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
So as we bring the interview to an end, I'm going
to ask you a question that Ithink you already touched on
this earlier by asking all myguests.
So if you could go back to 21year old Bruce some advice on
life and what's going on in theworld, what would that advice be
?
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, you gave me a heads up so I've actually
thought about this answer.
So there are probably fourthings I'd say to Ruth.
Dear Ruth, age 21, one thatdon't drink too much no, I'm not
kidding.
But what I'd say, don't be soself conscious.
I think for me, I think a lotof people are the same right.
They're very much, particularlythat age and unfortunately, as
(45:45):
I, it hasn't gone awaycompletely, lee very, very self
conscious.
So drop that if you can remaincurious and observant.
I think it's a very hackneyedsaying, but it's so true.
You're given two ears and onemouth.
Use them in equal proportion.
So remain curious.
This was a big one for me.
Try things, even if you thinkyou're going to fail at them.
(46:08):
I would avoid things if Ididn't know I could succeed.
And that as a little segue.
I was asked to try out for theUS netball team.
Now when people stop laughing.
But what's the US netball team?
It was a national side.
I was asked to try out and Ididn't because I thought I'm
never going to get on the teamthese awesome Jamaican girls.
So I didn't even try out.
(46:28):
Really angry with 28 year oldRuth that I didn't.
Yeah, and a bit like the twoears and one mouth thing.
Make sure you ask really goodquestions.
No one, yeah, you don't need toknow at all.
Just think about the questions,because it shows you're
listening and engaging incontent, and I think I'm amazed
(46:48):
what people will divulge whenyou ask them questions.
They'll tell you a lot.
Yeah, don't ask that I get.
That's what one always used tosay no, no, I think I could be a
spy.
I could be a spy, lee.
You just don't know.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Yeah, we might edit that bit out as well.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
You can leave that in .
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that I get picked up by some of
the some of the kids.
Next few weeks for you, Ruth,what's going on in Ruth's land
and world?
What's your focus?
Speaker 2 (47:21):
So I'm catching up with some more Kiwi companies
who are in town, which is a realtreat.
They're at Dreamforce, theSalesforce conference.
Then what am I doing?
I'm not sure.
After that leads, it's back tomore BAU company every day.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, okay, cool, alright.
So anyone listening to thisthinking NZTE, I want to know
more.
I want to take on the US andtake on all that advice, the
good advice you've just given usin the in the last 50 minutes
or so, you know how did I findout more?
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Yeah, go to the website NZTEgovtnz, Sign up, for
there's a whole section how tobecome a customer.
So sign up there.
There's a whole bunch ofcontent that you can consume.
Some really good market guidesVery tailored if you're in tech
or food and beverage.
Good market guides giving youan overview of the US and other
markets.
Sign up there.
(48:09):
If you want to talk to someone,send us an email.
I'll give you a call back.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Fantastic.
Alright, ruth, thanks so muchfor making the time to talk to
me today.
I'm sure all our users will bevery intrigued and very
interested in some of the topicswe're talking about, so really
appreciate and wish you all thebest in the next few weeks and
next few years coming up.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Thanks, Lee.
Good luck with your move.
Can we talk about that?
Good luck.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
We'll talk about that in the next show, okay.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Cheers, cheers.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
So that's another great episode, done and dusted,
as always.
I'd love to hear from you ifyou know anyone that's got a
really good story to tell abouthow they are, or not, living a
productive life.
If you want to get in touchwith me, please do so by my
website, wwwleastevansco.
That's wwwleastevansco.
You can email me, lee atleastevansco, or get in touch on
(49:07):
LinkedIn, which we're alsohanging out In the meantime.
Have a good week.
Welcome to the Time and Motion podcast with me, your
host, lee Stevens.
For over 25 years, I've workedwith businesses all over the
world to improve the technologyand the people within them.
In this podcast, I share someof my experiences and I chat to
guests who generously sharetheir stories of how to or, in
some cases, how not to live aproductive life.
I hope you enjoy the show.
(00:28):
Ruth McLeod, welcome to theshow.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Thanks for having me, Lee.
I'm very excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
And you are in the sunny US of A.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I am.
I'm based in the Greater BayArea in San Francisco.
I've been here since July 2020and, for those following along,
it wasn't the greatest of timesto be moving to the States
Doesn't sound like it was Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
So before we get going, who are you?
What do you do and how do youend up in US of A when you've
got a strong chemical accent?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
That's strong.
So, as I said, ruth McLeod, I'mthe Trade Commissioner for New
Zealand Trade and Enterprise,based in San Francisco.
So for those of you who haven'theard of New Zealand Trade and
Enterprise, it's the GovernmentEconomic Development Agency and
our job is to help Kiwicompanies grow bigger, better,
faster, for the good of NewZealand.
Part two of your question howdid I come to be here?
(01:31):
I've worked at NZT since thedawn of time.
I have a standard joke, whichis if anyone's watched Jurassic
Park, you know, with that scenewith the Jeep and the doors and
Sam Neal, if you look really,really closely, you'll find me.
You won't.
I've said that joke before andpeople mistook me for actually
being in the movie.
I wasn't, but it was just toillustrate that I've been at NZT
since 2003.
(01:52):
So I started with him in NewYork, spent five years in New
York, then back to New Zealand.
We'd had a son by that stage,so I wanted him to be around
whanau.
And then this opportunity cameup and yeah, we jumped at it.
We didn't know that there wasgoing to be a pandemic because
we didn't have a crystal ball.
But hey, that was three yearsago.
So here we are.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Fantastic.
And before that early life,what was early life like for you
?
Where did you go up?
What did you do?
Where was that Sure?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Well, I grew up in Auckland, tamaki Makaurau, and I
was one of six children.
How personal do we get there onthis podcast?
Because I can you know.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
As personal as you want to get Roof.
Personally, you want to getOkay, excellent.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
So I was one of six children, had a great upbringing
, but it was marred by the factthat my father died when I was
four and my mother raised sixchildren under the age of 20.
So, yeah, that was tough forher, but I my hat's off to her.
She's since passed away at theripe old age of 87, but I'm
growing up without a dad waspretty tough.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
I can imagine it was, and which part of Auckland,
papakura, and then so education.
So what did education consistof for you?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, my mother was big on education.
She actually my entire familybar me grew up in Scotland, so
I'm a first-gen Kiwi.
She was big on education.
Her family couldn't afford tosend her to medical school so
she became a nurse instead.
So that was very much drummedinto us and I had the good
fortune of going to St CupboardsCollege in Auckland from the
(03:24):
age of 11.
So that was a really greatgrounding in.
Before girl power was a thing,it was girl power.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
First job.
First job was at Xeroxphotocopying when I was about 15
, but at university I did workfor a chicken company and this
is before automation and I had asummer job on the deboning line
, so in a freezer for threemonths cutting up chickens.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Okay, and then decided that wasn't the life for
you.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
It wasn't the life for me.
I was doing a BA B Com atuniversity.
So that took me five yearsrather than four, because when I
started I thought I wanted tobe a lawyer, but then I took
calculus and so failed pre-lawand was very bitter in my second
year and so the whole BA B Com,which was in political science
management, took five years.
(04:23):
So after university, you know,for me, we well, my generation
Gen X we were the firstgeneration in New Zealand to
have fees associated withuniversity.
So while many of mypredecessors would jump in a
combi and go and work in a pub,we graduated with student loan
(04:44):
debt, a lot of us so quickly wewere really focused on getting
work.
I tried to get some work in NewZealand.
That didn't pan out.
I met my now husband.
We moved to Melbourne.
I was in Melbourne for fiveyears, had various roles at
Telstra and quite interestingrole at Telstracom when they
thought they were going to beonline everything.
Then I moved to Munich becausemy husband got a job opportunity
(05:07):
, landed in Munich in 2002.
And for the historians that'snot a good time to land in
Munich when you don't speakGerman.
So I couldn't get a job in myfield, which at that point was
project management and IT really.
So I ended up, completelyunqualified, teaching English to
executives and my lesson planswere written for me.
(05:29):
But I my first lesson was witha group of execs from Deutsche
Bank.
I knew I was in trouble when Iwalked into the lesson and they
were reading the Wall StreetJournal.
I thought I'm cooked, but I hada lot of fun doing that.
Should I keep going?
I feel like I'm on a roll here.
Very good, carry on, yeah.
So after Germany, again there'sa recurring pattern.
(05:51):
My husband got posted to NewYork and he said do you want to
go?
And I said, if they speakEnglish, please, and moved to
New York.
Took a long time to get a jobthere, actually.
So in 2003, new York was prettystill very muted after 9-11.
But this is where I found myway into NZTE, starting off kind
of an events consular role, andthen my kind of NZTE stint
(06:15):
started.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
And like a lot of Kiwi couples, a lot of couples
around the world, obviouslyyou're a team, right, and you
share responsibilities with,with parenting and earning and
socialising, et cetera.
So you know, for for him doinghis role, you know, we that was,
you know, I think that was thatwas probably like a lot of us
do, right, we go actually aspart of Team Stevens or Team
Cloud or whatever that might bethe team and you you do, you
(06:39):
help each other out and you findyour way.
So, but that that's quite acommon thing, right, you know,
especially in the, you know, Ithink since 2000, actually,
people are more inclined to goaround the world and people say,
oh, you're following yourpartner, but you're not, You're
doing it as a family, you'relearning new experiences and
sounds like that was the casefor you guys.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yeah, that was and it wasn't always easy and I, you
know, in diplomatic circles theycall it the trailing spouse,
which is a terrible, terribleterm.
But I think for me, you know,some of the decisions we made
were squarely for my husband'scareer and that was tough
because it did put me in theback seat.
But what I recognized is that,if you know, from a from a
(07:16):
relationship point of view, Ican't hold a grudge because I I
said yes, let's do it.
So I can't hold the grudge.
That's just not helpful for ourrelationship.
But you know, 21 year old me,might, might second guess some
of those decisions to be to bebrutally honest.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, okay, so in New York, and that's when you first
got involved with VINZTE.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
So how did that come about?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Look, it was the old fashioned way, lee.
I didn't know anyone, but Ijust applied and they had quite
a rigorous or maybe not thatrigorous so I got in, as they
say, but quite a like involvedrecruitment process and work
there for nearly four years inNew York, had my son, so he's
got a US passport.
He's born in Jersey, so he's aJersey boy and, as I said, 2008
(08:04):
came along.
We decided to go back to NewZealand.
Our son was 18 months old.
We wanted him to be grow uparound final.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
And do you think there's been kind of way over
the last say 20, 25 years?
From my understanding, there'sbeen waves where Kiwis go off
and you know for differentreasons, but generally where
it's financial, where it's adancing economy, but there's
these waves.
But when we're seeing it alittle bit at the moment, right,
you know where Kiwis are goingoff and going to Australia and
America and England et cetera.
(08:33):
But that's just for me.
That's just like the people Ispeak to and the friends I've
got.
That's just part of the DNA,that's part of the Kiwi culture.
So do you think that's kind ofingrained into you as well,
where you kind of knew that youwanted to go travel and see the
world and you know you're partof those Kiwis that go exploring
?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I think so, but you know, as I mentioned before, I
think the bigger difference isand anyone who's pre-GenX can
correct me on this but I thinkthe biggest difference is,
whereas pre-student loans andI'll put pre-student loans and
post-student loans, sopre-student loans, I feel like
people were out there exploringmindset and they wanted to go
overseas and get in the combivan and do the contiki and they
(09:08):
may or may not fall into careerswhen they're doing that.
I think post-student loanpeople were focused.
I myself had a $20,000 loan,which was relatively reasonable
back in the 90s, but I thinkthat's what's changed.
For me, lee, is that peoplecome out with a student loan,
they think, well, maybe I'll getsome.
You know, get my, get somescars a couple of years in New
(09:29):
Zealand, then I'll go offshore,and I think a lot of it is
actually to do with heck, how amI going to pay this student
loan back?
Yes, we're still explorers, butI think it's also very
pragmatic.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
How do I get rid of this loan fast?
Yep, okay, so NZTE 2003.
Yeah, what was the purpose ofthat organization then, and what
is it now?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, it's always been the same, I think NZTE
again any fact checkers therewho want to correct me I think
we came into being in 2001,.
There were two differentagencies at the time.
One focused on domesticcapability building, one focused
on helping companies export.
They came together as NewZealand Trade and Enterprise.
We were always about helpingcompanies grow internationally.
(10:11):
I think what we saw with PeteCrispus still the CEO now.
He came in with a very clearpurpose and he spent a lot of
time making sure everybodyunderstood that our purpose was
really to grow companies, as Isaid, bigger, better, faster,
for the good of New Zealand.
So our orientation, what wetalk about, how we work, is
squarely thinking about that NewZealand company and how we can
(10:33):
wrap around and support them.
Because, let's face it, anyonewho's going offshore, you have
to be gutsy, maybe a little bitcrazy.
You have to be certainly gutsyto take on if I think about the
US the world's most competitivemarket.
So our job is to really helpcompanies navigate that and
really put them in touch withothers that have done before
(10:53):
them and put them in touch withsmart people that can guide them
.
That's what we're there to do.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
We'll talk about tech in a moment, but if I go think
about 20 years ago, I'm guessingthat what was being exported
was probably a little bitdifferent as well, and so I'm
guessing the usual suspects,like Dairy and all of the wine
and the green stuff we growright here in New Zealand, would
have been probably the focus.
(11:20):
So is that the case, and howhas that changed over the last
20 years?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, I mean it's changed dramatically and really,
probably in the last five toseven years we've seen it
accelerate.
So tech is now the secondlargest export earner for New
Zealand, which is phenomenal.
And the other kind of factoid Ilove about tech is that
Auckland is now home, per capita, for the most game developers
in the world.
So, and what we're seeing now,what I'm certainly seeing, is
(11:48):
repeat.
We're not a repeat offendersI'll call them that, but I think
they are.
The other term is serialentrepreneurs.
So we're seeing people who mayhave sold out in 2006, 2007, and
they're now on advisory boards,the directors.
They're reinvesting.
So I think that's the bigchange for me, that people with
experience are coming back intothe ecosystem, giving back to
the ecosystem and also investingand growing new businesses.
(12:11):
And that's, you know, that'sstarting to really build
momentum and tech in particular.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
What do you think the perception of Kiwi businesses
is in the US?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I think it depends on whatsector you're referring to, but
I'm going to talk to tech, whichI know a bit better than the
others.
That's where my team's focus is.
Look, I think we the US,broadly doesn't really care
about the origin story when itcomes to tech, except that New
(12:43):
Zealand has a very goodreputation for being honest,
straightforward, easy to dealwith, so that's a real plus.
But when it comes down to it,that might get your foot in the
door.
But then, of course, like anybusiness decision doesn't make
sense.
What's the ROI?
What's the integration pathway,All those things.
But I think, on the whole, newZealand is.
(13:04):
I had somebody say to me yearsago and I think this is a really
clever way to think about it hesaid that New Zealand is the O
type blood of business.
They're accepted everywhere,and I think that's absolutely
true for the US and people areintrigued by New Zealand.
If I had a dollar for everytime someone said it's on my
bucket list, which is a greatthing.
Right, we are on someone'sbucket list.
(13:25):
It's a very good start.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
So you mentioned techs, your focus.
Was that just a natural thingthat evolved?
Because as we export here fromNew Zealand, it's easy to do
that and obviously it's digital,etc.
But you mentioned it's numbertwo.
Number one is still primary.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
It's still very, it's still very right, Very yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
With the kind of shift towards tech and the focus
, how have NZTE had to changeand how has, as an organization
you know, have?
What have you had to startthinking about?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, I think that the key thing is we've really
had to think about our talentand how we specifically support
tech companies right, becausethere's a business model and
there's a pattern, there's avernacular that is typical of
tech.
So we've had to think about whowe recruit so that they can
come alongside businesses.
We've also had to think aboutsome of our programs and
(14:22):
developing them specifically fortech.
Just coming to the States, Iran the International Beachheads
program, so we recognized anumber of years ago that our
bench strength of advisorswasn't strong enough in tech.
So how do we bring more techsmarts around the table really?
So the orientation has beenokay.
(14:44):
What do we need to supportthese companies?
What's the talent?
What are the programs?
Who are the people we need toattract?
The programs that are moreone-to-one oriented?
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And how do businesses engage, ruth?
Because obviously, if you're anearly stage startup, or even at
the idea stage, or you'rethinking about a startup and a
tech start, for that matter,what's the best way for a
business to engage with NZT?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, literally is to call our 0800 number, which I
don't have off the top of myhead.
It's literally that no that'sfine, we can do it, and I think
the thing Leigh, though, is thatwe aren't necessarily always
the right answer depending onwhere your business is at.
So if you're really incubationstage, you might be better
served by Callahan orbusinessgov, but our customer
(15:26):
advisory team, who'll answerthat call or answer your email,
are in a position to direct youto where it's most suitable for
you at the time.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Okay, so let's talk about some of the success
stories in the US in the techsector.
Who, in your opinion, have theybeen?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah, I think Parkerville comes to mind.
I mean there are a lot, I'm notpicking favorites, but
Parkerville's top of mind, leigh, because we saw the team last
week.
I think what they've donereally, really well is, when
they came to the US they camewith a loose hypothesis about
what might it take to succeedhere, but they weren't fixed on
(16:05):
it.
So three or four years ago theycame to us and said we think
we're applying our B2C model aspeople would know it in New
Zealand.
We think that's the space forus to play.
Can you help us decide if thatis in fact the space to play?
They went through a programthat we offer through UCLA Gap,
got a whole bunch of researchdone and it was clear that the
B2C space was already reallycrowded here and that caused
(16:29):
them to pivot towards B2B.
Where they are today and I think, cut to four years later a lot
of blood, sweat and toil fromToby and Brody and the team.
They've now won globalcontracts with Metta.
They're in discussions withother very large tech companies
University of Cambridge, Banksand Australia and New Zealand
(16:49):
and they're going about theirgrowth really thoughtfully,
bringing on excellent people whoare all and I guess this is
something I see in Parkable.
Who've all got this spirit andentrepreneur outlook that just
pervades that culture.
So I'm really bullish onParkable.
It's a hard space.
(17:10):
They're in the commercialproperty space.
So anyone following along inthe US, particularly in San
Francisco, that's a hard marketto be in, but they've got a
compelling proposition.
Yeah, jordan Black, okay.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
So what would you say ?
Some of the common mistakesthat Kiwi businesses, and Aussie
businesses for that matter,make when they're trying to
tackle the US or trying to getsome sort of traction over there
?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, I think it's similar to the Parkable story.
But I think what people mightunderestimate is the need for
focus over here.
So you might have a template inAustralia and New Zealand that
works really well.
You're across multipleindustries and that works.
And you do that for very goodreasons, because the size of
either market is not big enoughto sustain a laser focus.
(17:58):
When you come to the US, thatdoesn't work as well because the
market is just so much bigger.
So if I think about the termniche, I think it means
something quite different in NewZealand than it does in the US.
So niche to me means small,means maybe a small total
addressable market.
It means you're not going tomake a lot of money.
But niche over here just meansfocus.
(18:20):
So the example I always give isone of Pushpay.
So Pushpay, new Zealand ChurchManagement and Payment Software
Company.
They sold this year to aprivate equity firm in Melbourne
for $1.6 billion and they werefocused on a niche in the US.
But that niche was churches.
And if they focused on a nichein New Zealand their TAM would
be $4,000.
(18:42):
But their TAM in the US is$400,000.
So they threw a lot of trialand error, landed on the church
niche and said we're going toput all our wood behind just
churches and when I say justchurches it's $400,000 of them.
So back to your question.
I think there's a lot to bekind of gleaned from that, which
is they pointed everything, whothey hired, their brand, their
(19:06):
marketing, their pitching to aspecific ICP and really nailed
that.
But what I see is companiescoming with that New Zealand,
australian template of multipleindustries and saying I'm just
going to plop that down.
So I was talking to a companyrecently and they've got
fantastic technology and they'vesaid we want to tackle defense
utilities and the hospitalsystem and I just said no,
(19:29):
you're not.
I was a bit blunt becauseunless you've got unlimited
marketing budget, unless you'vegot unlimited product
development resources, that's areally, really impossible task.
So maybe start with utilitiesand maybe just narrow it down to
is it one utility, is it Texas,utilities in Texas and building
(19:51):
?
Use that as your beach and thenbuild and grow.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, I think some of the other mistakes I sent
talking to founders as well,especially over here in New
Zealand, is when they tackle theUS they don't appreciate the
scale and the size.
So some of the best bits ofadvice I've been giving is pick
a state maybe to start off with,and just because that's like,
that one state is probably still20 times bigger than New
Zealand, so, if not more, so Ithink that's probably some
(20:16):
common issue.
Another question I was going toask you was around product
market fit and validation.
So it still amazed me how manybusinesses kind of skip that
stage and we might have been oneof those businesses, but that's
a different conversation.
But how is that the case andwhat can businesses do to make
sure they do good validation andthey kind of start making that
(20:39):
journey towards product marketfit?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, I think that the key is getting here and, you
know, finding those initialpeople that will have
conversations with you.
But I think it's a mindsetthing.
I interviewed somebody lastyear and he had some really good
advice.
He said don't think of year oneas revenue in the US.
(21:02):
If you set your sights on theUS, don't think year one I'm
going to get revenue.
Think year one is going to be alearning year.
So, if you can get here orremotely, you know, find people
on LinkedIn who you think areyour ideal customer.
Reach out to them.
Find out who you know thatknows that person.
Reach out, have a conversation.
You're not selling at thatpoint and for that first year
(21:23):
sounds like a luxury.
It'll pay back in spades.
If that first year you canreally do that from afar or,
better still, here, you're in amuch better position to
understand if that productmarket fit is realistic.
And, really importantly, howshould you be showing up at
market?
What should you be saying?
What are the hot buttons?
All that good stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
So for people listen to this thinking, that sounds
great.
I'm on the next plane out toSan Francisco.
How practical is that?
The roof.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily.
That wouldn't be the firstthing I do.
The first thing I do is get onLinkedIn.
If you're not a LinkedIn user,now's the time to really start.
What's your brand look like onLinkedIn?
What's your personal brand?
And people are amazinglyreceptive.
And the good thing about Kiwisand we've got a phone company
that attests to this you knowtwo degrees.
(22:11):
You'll find there are a millionKiwi pastoral holders
internationally, a millionoutside of New Zealand.
So you're most likely to find aKiwi somewhere that knows
somebody and can make that warmintroduction for you.
And one of the shout outs I'llgive actually is to Kiya, new
Zealand.
If you don't know Kiya, checkout their website.
That is.
(22:32):
The purpose of Kiya is toconnect Kiwis with other Kiwis
offshore and they've got thisfantastic matching service or
connection service that actuallyyou can do that.
I want to know about X.
Who knows about X?
Can you connect me?
So the LinkedIn Kiya friendsand family, colleagues, peers
you'll be amazed when you say Ineed to find out about this.
(22:52):
Who can help me?
How many people will actuallyhelp you so that you don't have
to buy a ticket just yet.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Okay, so next question.
So one of the big hot topicslast week at Sazda, which is the
Global Saz conference, wasaround money, and a year ago
they were starting to slow down.
There was less money around forinvesting and I think the key
takeaway I took was that there'sa slight recovery now and maybe
(23:20):
there's slightly more moneythan it was a year ago or at the
start of 2023.
So how would you summarize theVC and kind of the investment
market for Kiwis thinking theymight want to raise some money
over in the States at the moment?
Speaker 2 (23:36):
This is not my area of expertise.
I won't get over my skis, butwhat I will say is that New
Zealand companies have neverattracted crazy multiples of
valuations.
So I think now is the time ifyou've got a compelling
proposition, and a shout out toMichael Siebel if anybody's on
LinkedIn, track down MichaelSiebel, managing partner Y
(23:58):
Combinator, who gives abrilliant talk on what to
include in your pitch.
But I think now is the timebecause Kiwi companies are, you
know, maybe to their detriment.
They're realistic, pragmatic,honest, straightforward.
This is what we're hearing theVC community wants.
They don't want jazz hands.
They don't want ridiculousprojections that may or may not
come true.
So I think, if you're lookingto raise cash, now is a really
(24:22):
good time.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah, and I think my takeaway from that was no matter
what environment or whateconomic timeline you're in,
that, there's always money for agood idea, right?
Yeah, yeah.
That's right, that was easilythe best talk.
I'll put the link in the shownotes.
But, yeah, it's going to see ifyou for anyone looking to raise
money, or even if you're notlooking to raise money, if
you're doing a startup.
(24:45):
For me, that is should be thetemplate for how you need to run
your business in a lot of ways.
Right, yeah, he was fantastic.
Okay, so let's go back to NZTE.
So what are some of the otherways that you're helping Kiwi
businesses over there?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Yeah, probably.
I mean there's lots of, lots ofdifferent ways.
So if you think about abusiness you know setting up in
a new market, so right from, howdo I?
What structure do I need?
What are my, what are the taximplications of, of setting up
over here?
Who do I hire?
How do I hire?
What do I have to be thinkingabout when I hire?
So everything that you thinkabout running a business that
you might have set up in NewZealand, we can support you with
(25:19):
that through our own advisorynetwork or referrals out to
other providers who are experts.
I mean US tax.
Goodness me, no one tries to bean expert in that, so those are
kind of the fundamental sort ofoperational things.
But also I think one of thejewels in our crown is the Beach
Sheds advisory network and youknow, one of my achievements was
was working on that for anumber of years and love them to
(25:41):
pieces, All the advisorsequally.
Some are definitely morefavorite than others, but the
Beach Sheds advisory network isa group of individuals who, in
this case, based in the US,who've got great US experience,
who can navigate all the thingsI mentioned but also really give
it on the ground perspectiveabout things like pricing and
product market fit and marketingand what's, what's my digital
(26:05):
footprint need to look like.
So again, anything to do withyour growing your business, as
you thought about as anentrepreneur in New Zealand.
We can support with aspects ofthat through our networks and
through our team.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Okay, is any particular areas you feel that
are underutilized?
Maybe should be leverage betterpop businesses.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
I think for me, and you know, shout out to the Kiwi
SaaS community.
I think that the biggest thingthat, if you know, if I was an
entrepreneur and I never havebeen and I'm acutely aware of it
but I think what I would bedoing based on what I know now,
is I'd be reaching out to mypeers like all the time
obnoxiously slow.
(26:44):
So in terms of underutilized,nzt does make these connections
between companies.
But I think that you know, ifwe all had that mindset and I'm
just going to take a littlesegue here, if you just bear
with when I went back to NewZealand for the first time after
being in New York, people wouldsay what's the difference
between a Kiwi founder and a anda US founder?
(27:05):
And I'd say, well, myobservation is that the US
founder you might incubatesomething in his garage, quote
unquote but really quickly he orshe will say who's smarter than
me?
Who's done it before?
Who can I bring into my circleso that this idea gets legs,
(27:25):
either flames or just fliesright.
I think we're getting better atthis in New Zealand, but I think
our tendency is to incubate abit too long, to stay in the
metaphorical garage a bit toolong.
So I think the big unlock wouldbe if we all had that mindset
of who's smarter than me, who'sdone it before, who can I talk
to, because I know you'd havehad this experience.
(27:47):
When you ask that question, lee, of others people will go sure
I'll help.
I'll give you half an hour.
Then you should speak to Sharonor Bob.
They'll also give you half anhour.
Before you know it, you've gota whole group of people who are
invested in your success.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yeah, I think that was for me when we talked about
difference between Aussies andKiwis, but I think the
similarities is just so, sosimilar in their mindset as well
.
And I think you're absolutelyright.
The amount of people that youreach out to and a lot of very
humble, good humans, I think isthe most overused term.
I've seen them for the last Iknow everyone's linked in the
(28:20):
post the last couple of days,but it's probably very apt,
right.
You know, people were just verynice people and I'm pretty
certain that, regardless of whathappens, we've worked for
Surrey and even if going toBrisbane and people stopped
talking to me for that for alittle while, but there'd be
people you'd be able to pick upthe phone to or drop an email to
go.
I need some help in this, oryou've been thinking about this
why, and I think you'd get thathelp, but I don't think you
(28:43):
would get that in the UK.
I don't think you'd get it inthe US.
If I'm being completely honest,I think that was quite obvious
that the scale that people playat the if they kind of, I don't
think it's intentional, but youknow the reality is you're
playing at a different level,right?
So you know, if you're a 300million dollar business yeah,
300 million dollars of ARR,you're not gonna have much in
common with a 10 million dollarbusiness that's from Australia
(29:04):
or New Zealand.
So I don't yeah so, but I thinkthe people is what it boils
down to a lot of yeah, and Ithink that the asking, asking
for input, help.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Whatever you want to say I think if, if you're
vulnerable enough again and I'veused where, I'm sorry about
that but if you, you know youneed to ask because people will.
In the key, we can text Giveyou that, give me the time to
day yeah, I think you mentionedkey.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
We said it's a big shout out to Brett and Kim and
all those those guys and girlskind of running those events and
really driving awareness aboutyou know says and especially
that there's great in thatcommunity.
I am, one of the ideas I talkedabout with Brett was last week
was actually you could actuallyplot this out from a cycle, from
(29:51):
a.
I got this idea through tovalidation, through to Raising
some money for serious a seriesbeing essentially that says
napkin, right, but there's a bitbefore it was one.
I said to him there we go, thatshould actually life cycle and
if you can explain that topeople, because I think a lot of
startups and a lot of techstartups we spoke about this
last week they get so much badadvice from people that have
(30:13):
never you know, never gone onand taken on the world.
They never give it a crack.
And my, my job is my words.
No one else is that.
I used to get very frustratedwith the gray hair, gray suit,
gray mentality of some of theseadvisors that were we're
knocking around as professionaladvisors and so that's not a dig
at any of those in particular,but it was just.
When you speak to an advisor.
(30:33):
You want someone has been andgot the t-shirt right or at
least had a cracker, and youwant to learn from their
failings.
And I guess that's some ofthose people that haven't done
that and give this shenan andvice very loosely.
In my opinion, I don't thinkthey're in a position to be able
to give that advice.
But you know, I think withpeople like Kiwi says, and NZT,
and you know all that good workyou can see you guys doing, I
(30:55):
think you know business is goingto be far better position than
maybe we're five, ten years agoto get that voice.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting.
You should say that because Iwas involved with beach heads
for a number of years and wewent through iterations of that
model and it was originally adragon's den kind of model yeah.
I was happy to find it withquestions and generally make
them feel really inadequate andbeaten up and we realize guess
(31:20):
what?
That's not actually helpinganybody.
So we switch for a promoteadvisory here's what you should
do model to much more givingalongside coaching model.
You know, because as you and Italked about last week, lee, you
know someone's giving youadvice and they can't hope
unless they're living next toyou, breathing next to you.
They can't hope to know whatyou know about your business In
(31:42):
the context of your business.
It's really impossible whatthey can be really good at, what
I think our beach is a verygood at asking questions to help
you think through your ownbusiness.
So you know that was a reallyimportant pivot for beach heads
and it paid paid dividendsbecause people felt like
Advisors were getting alongsidethem.
In fact we toyed with changingthe name because they're not
(32:04):
really advise.
Is there sort of coaches andquestion askers?
But I don't coach.
Doesn't seem right either.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, I think the other thing as well is that and
once again, this is just myexperience of coaching in as a
whole people think that coachesand advisors are going to give
you all the answers, and I thinkthe reality is they're not.
The answers are going to comefrom within, but what they're
going to do is ask the rightquestions, that you know they
can be curious and they're goingto get you to come up the
answer because you know youpeople said right, okay, how do
(32:30):
you make my business 100 million?
It's not going to work, right.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
So yeah, yeah, I know there's no, there's no silver
bullet.
And I think sometimes we dohave businesses coming to us
with we don't ask a specificquestion and they might get a
bit frustrated because, well,maybe that's not the question to
ask, maybe the question isactually over here, but they
really want the silver bullet.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
So we mentioned about that.
Maybe that more of a localmindset you know and not you
know realize is a big world outthere and validating, as you say
, from afar, etc.
Is there any other kind ofcommon things or common mistakes
that you see businesses thatmay be about to make, that you
catch or that you see happen?
You know, happened quite a bit,you know what.
So for anyone listening to getthe masterclass and not what to
(33:13):
do, you know what some of thethings that other businesses you
know when they look intoexpanding to us do.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
We'll just call it a class.
Hey, decide if it's amasterclass.
But I think the other thingthat I see is that You've had
some success in New Zealand andAustralia, right.
So you're feeling pretty boyand bullish and you're going to
take on the US.
I think the mindset I see whichisn't as successful as we're in
(33:38):
scale up mode.
In fact, the mindset you needto be successful is we're an
educated start up in the US.
So I think if you sort of goback to that concept of A little
bit scrappy, no one kind ofknows us.
How do I, how do I think aboutgrowth in the US, as I thought
about growth when I firststarted my business.
I think if you think with thatmentality, that's a pretty big
unlock as well.
(33:58):
And I think where that reallygets gets awkward, shall we say.
If you think you're in scale upmode, you might then try and
hire salespeople in thinkingyou're in scale-up mode, but the
skillset you need is asalesperson or team.
That's really a startup salesteam.
(34:19):
So I think that's where it canget, that's where you see it
actually falling apart.
And I think if you talk to anumber of tech companies that
have set up here, they've madethe wrong initial hires,
thinking they needed a matureaccount executive.
They kind of need a BD or areally technical salesperson.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
So I think that's something to be careful about
and also because this is kind ofa common thing as well is that
a lot of businesses struggle totake it beyond founder sales.
So in the early days it's yourbusiness, it's your baby, every
single bit of that businessinside out, the benefits, you
know how to sell.
But the minute you try andscale up, you obviously need
(35:01):
systems and processes in placeand it needs to be not you
selling and we see that quite abit in any business for that
matter that actually once youtake it beyond the founder and I
was definitely guilty of thatas well in a services business
some time ago but actually whatyou have to do is you have to
sort of go okay, how can wesystemize this and how can we
create a system and a processthat's gonna sell the benefits
(35:22):
rather than go and look howgreat our product is or our
services, right?
Speaker 2 (35:25):
100% and I think that's again it's changing.
But I think we under invest insales ops sales process at New
Zealand, and I can think of acompany that we used to run a
sales service for that veryreason and NZTE, a company
called Ortex.
I'm pretty okay with talkingabout them.
I think they really knew thatthey weren't optimizing their
(35:46):
sales teams and the gap for themwas they didn't have a sales
playbook, so they didn't haveanything documented.
So that meant such a cascadingimpact, right.
So you're onboard a newsalesperson.
How do you train them?
Where's the book?
You didn't have one.
So you're absolutely right, lee.
I think moving through thatgrowth stage and you're maybe at
(36:07):
this point you're onboardingAmericans as well.
So there's a whole culturething to get across.
There's a whole values in whatthe business stands for.
So that onboarding is reallyimportant.
But then here's a playbook ofhow you sell an XYZ company.
If that doesn't exist, do nothire anybody.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, and I think you can those same rules apply for
consulting businesses as wellthat you should have a playbook
for your consultants.
You should have a playbook foryour sales guys, your account
managers you know thereshouldn't be any part of your
business that hasn't beenarticulated to say because
otherwise there's no consistency, right?
And how do you know if yourbecause Jason Lincoln talks to
us about this quite a lot isthat he will often take on two
salespeople at the same time.
(36:46):
Yeah, that's right, because ifthey both failed and it's on you
if one of them fails and maybeit's them, but I think that's
you can apply that methodologyand that playbook to whole
heaper businesses especially.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
New.
Zealand.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
And the other big thing, I guess once again my
opinion, not anyone else's isthat there's still very much
that kind of old school salesmentality in New Zealand.
So if anyone tries to sell yousomething, there's a good chance
they're gonna be wearing a bluesuit, a white shirt, brown tan
shoes and with a bit of chestair showing right and so, yes,
that would have been me a fewyears ago.
But once again, unfortunately,that typical salesperson.
(37:22):
You still see them at theconferences and you still see
them at certain meetings andunfortunately, when they turn up
like that there's you knowstraight away you're thinking
there's not very muchconsistency here.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
But I think, yeah, I think what did I read today on
LinkedIn?
Somebody that this is nottheirs.
I've seen it before.
If you're selling, you'vealready lost.
If you're trying to convincesomebody, you've already lost.
So yeah, I just go back to thatsales process, sales ops kind
of concept.
I think also that there arelots of good, you know,
consultancies and advisors dareI say it out there that can help
(37:57):
you with that.
I think people look at thatkind of challenge and go well, I
don't have one of these.
That sounds quite tough out ofmy area of expertise or whatever
.
It's actually not.
It's really really practical.
Once you get a frameworktogether, it's just about
drawing out from the founderperhaps in your case Lee drawing
out from you how you do it,codifying it and then building,
(38:18):
building, building.
It's not that difficult and ifanybody tells you it is, they're
overselling you.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yeah, 100%, yeah, yeah.
Okay, we mentioned about SanFrancisco and the Valley being
you know where businesses you goto place, and certainly for
tech businesses, it's kind of Iget it.
The talent pools there, theinvestors are there.
You know, if it was say, you'vegot to be in the Bay, but from
what I've seen over the last twoor three years, there's
definitely a trend of businessesmoving away from there, right,
(38:46):
and so you can be in otherplaces.
And so, like you speak topeople, oh no, we're in Denver,
Colorado, and you know we're inMiami.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
We're in Austin, texas, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
And so do you see that trend continuing across the
states when you're more techbusinesses you know, in
different parts of the country,so different reasons.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Yeah, I definitely do .
I mean there's a lot ofpublicity last year about some
of the large corporates movingout of California for tax and
talent purposes.
And thinking about the NewZealand context, there are about
30 New Zealand companies, techand others around Denver, the
Denver, colorado, coloradoSprings area and you know that's
(39:25):
a strategic choice.
It's in the middle of thecountry, really easy access to
East and West Coast.
Costs a lot of cost of talentis slightly lower cost of living
.
If anyone's interested, ifanyone's at that point of
considering where they might setup online, nzt has got a really
great resource for where thetech hubs in the United States.
Where might I actually base?
And we've looked at 25different cities that wouldn't
(39:47):
be necessarily in your frame ofreference, but you know San
Francisco gosh, so expensiveprice of talent.
You know who you're competingagainst.
You're like how would you standout on that talent market?
It's tough.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah, what constitutes a New Zealand
business these days?
Speaker 2 (40:07):
One that is founded, has ownership in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Okay, because, speaking to a few people out
there, I guess what happens isthe child grows the parent right
and since you, before you knowit, the CEO is American and the
founder might have been a Kiwi.
There's a few stories like thatI was catching up on last week,
you go well, are they Kiwibusiness?
I suppose the founder was, butthat's always a tricky question
to ask.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
It is an interesting one From an NZT perspective
because we're a governmentagency.
We're charged with helpingcompanies that are New
Zealand-based, businesses thatreturn profits and tax to New
Zealand.
But they will have absolutely,if you look at zero.
They'll have entities allaround the world and they'll be
paying taxes in those countries,but we look at what's the
return to New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Okay If we just pause and think about the future at
the moment and say, okay, well,what's the future hold?
One of the big things that cameout last week was if you want
any sort of funding, any sort oftech business, there's no
debate that AI needs to play arole in this right.
So have NZT got any kind ofstrong views or opinions on that
(41:16):
, or is it a case of it'ssomething we're going to watch
and be aware of, but we won'thave any sort of, we won't force
the issue.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
No, we haven't come out and taken a position on AI.
What I will say?
You and I attended that sameconference.
What I will say is that it istable stakes, so it's no longer
you know.
You say you have AI and it'sprobably a little bit of a yawn
because you should.
So what's different about yourproposition?
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Yeah, yeah, and I think for me that's put into
context was there was a termwhere, well, we have a
sprinkling of AI.
That was used quite a lot, youknow a few sessions.
It's like a sprinkler of saltor sprinkler of pepper, but what
they're saying is that, youknow, when they say that, people
go oh yeah, we've got thisamazing business, we're tech
business.
Oh, by the way, we've got someAI, because it's the on vogue
(42:02):
ring to say right, whereas youknow what.
And, by the way, if anyone'slistening to this, there's the
says napkin, says funding napkin, which is a thing.
So if you just go and Googlesays funding 2023 or says
funding napkin, and it's a youknow VC that essentially
produces it every year.
But this is the first year, whatthey've done is and they tell
you about what you need to do ateach stage, so, whether you pre
(42:25):
seed, seed series a, series B,and again what the expectations
around numbers, around productmarket fit, around team, but
this is the first year they'veactually added a complete
section at the bottom, which isa clearly defined AI strategy is
needed.
So that's it now.
It's none, and I think it wasDavid Sacks who was the one of
the founder and one of the VCsinvestors.
(42:45):
He said exactly the same thing.
You know it's, it's 85%, andthose are probably aren't doing
it.
It's probably because it's abusiness that doesn't really
need it.
But you know the vast majority.
So AI is definitely sent to beon on the where.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, I mean.
The one thing I will say isthat you know, if people are
sitting there going, how do Iget AI into my business?
Well, if you're, if you're aHubSpot user, hubspot is
investing a ton into AI, so it'snot necessarily that you're
behind, but think about yourpartners in the ecosystem you
operated and how they'releveraging AI, because that will
obviously benefit you.
It's not necessarily about youthinking up the next add on to
(43:20):
chat GPT, for it's about youknow, how am I being enabled?
How's my team?
How are we enabled?
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Yeah, and I think the most obvious and the easiest
one for any business that'smaybe, you know, looking to
raise money is essentially ishow you're going to use AI to
interpret your data.
I think that's the most obviousand easiest one.
You know most people.
It will interpret data andtrends.
You know ways and then someonewould do it for and it's
interesting, even in a HR worldright, you know you can start.
The AI can start seeing thosetrends even better than a human
(43:47):
can.
So that's the way you got tolook at it.
What could it?
Speaker 2 (43:49):
what certainly has big, big data tables you've got
100%, I think, a big data andand, as I said, I'd add to that,
enabling your sales team, right, yeah, and a similar thing,
right.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Yeah, okay.
So what else does do businessesneed to know?
What's so great and amazingabout taking on the US roof for
keyword businesses?
Speaker 2 (44:09):
You'd have heard this before, lee, but I mean, the
size of the prize is potentiallyenormous.
So you know, and it's, there'sa certain cache, I believe, and
saying, hey, we're in the US andwe've got boots on the ground
and we're making a go of it, soit's a really attractive market
to be in.
People are open, open to tryingnew things.
If you've got a compellingproposition, that's going to be
(44:32):
right for that particular ICP,not for everyone, just for that
person you know you're going togo far.
So, yeah, it's a buoyant market.
The recession, of course, ishere, it's in pockets.
But right now, in the Bay Areaagain, despite probably what you
hear, and yes, downtown issuffering at a 30% occupancy
(44:52):
rate, but out in the valley it'sit's, all systems go right.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Yeah, we saw that, as cars still been sold, houses
still been sold, so you wouldn'tnecessarily know there's a
recession going on on there.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
No, not at all.
All right.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
So as we bring the interview to an end, I'm going
to ask you a question that Ithink you already touched on
this earlier by asking all myguests.
So if you could go back to 21year old Bruce some advice on
life and what's going on in theworld, what would that advice be
?
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, you gave me a heads up so I've actually
thought about this answer.
So there are probably fourthings I'd say to Ruth.
Dear Ruth, age 21, one thatdon't drink too much no, I'm not
kidding.
But what I'd say, don't be soself conscious.
I think for me, I think a lotof people are the same right.
They're very much, particularlythat age and unfortunately, as
(45:45):
I, it hasn't gone awaycompletely, lee very, very self
conscious.
So drop that if you can remaincurious and observant.
I think it's a very hackneyedsaying, but it's so true.
You're given two ears and onemouth.
Use them in equal proportion.
So remain curious.
This was a big one for me.
Try things, even if you thinkyou're going to fail at them.
(46:08):
I would avoid things if Ididn't know I could succeed.
And that as a little segue.
I was asked to try out for theUS netball team.
Now when people stop laughing.
But what's the US netball team?
It was a national side.
I was asked to try out and Ididn't because I thought I'm
never going to get on the teamthese awesome Jamaican girls.
So I didn't even try out.
(46:28):
Really angry with 28 year oldRuth that I didn't.
Yeah, and a bit like the twoears and one mouth thing.
Make sure you ask really goodquestions.
No one, yeah, you don't need toknow at all.
Just think about the questions,because it shows you're
listening and engaging incontent, and I think I'm amazed
(46:48):
what people will divulge whenyou ask them questions.
They'll tell you a lot.
Yeah, don't ask that I get.
That's what one always used tosay no, no, I think I could be a
spy.
I could be a spy, lee.
You just don't know.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Yeah, we might edit that bit out as well.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
You can leave that in .
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that I get picked up by some of
the some of the kids.
Next few weeks for you, Ruth,what's going on in Ruth's land
and world?
What's your focus?
Speaker 2 (47:21):
So I'm catching up with some more Kiwi companies
who are in town, which is a realtreat.
They're at Dreamforce, theSalesforce conference.
Then what am I doing?
I'm not sure.
After that leads, it's back tomore BAU company every day.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, okay, cool, alright.
So anyone listening to thisthinking NZTE, I want to know
more.
I want to take on the US andtake on all that advice, the
good advice you've just given usin the in the last 50 minutes
or so, you know how did I findout more?
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Yeah, go to the website NZTEgovtnz, Sign up, for
there's a whole section how tobecome a customer.
So sign up there.
There's a whole bunch ofcontent that you can consume.
Some really good market guidesVery tailored if you're in tech
or food and beverage.
Good market guides giving youan overview of the US and other
markets.
Sign up there.
(48:09):
If you want to talk to someone,send us an email.
I'll give you a call back.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Fantastic.
Alright, ruth, thanks so muchfor making the time to talk to
me today.
I'm sure all our users will bevery intrigued and very
interested in some of the topicswe're talking about, so really
appreciate and wish you all thebest in the next few weeks and
next few years coming up.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Thanks, Lee.
Good luck with your move.
Can we talk about that?
Good luck.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
We'll talk about that in the next show, okay.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Cheers, cheers.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
So that's another great episode, done and dusted,
as always.
I'd love to hear from you ifyou know anyone that's got a
really good story to tell abouthow they are, or not, living a
productive life.
If you want to get in touchwith me, please do so by my
website, wwwleastevansco.
That's wwwleastevansco.
You can email me, lee atleastevansco, or get in touch on
(49:07):
LinkedIn, which we're alsohanging out In the meantime.
Have a good week.
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