Bridging Sports, Technology, and Leadership: Insights from Cheryl Adams

Ever thought about the technology behind the seamless 3D sports graphics that amp up your game-time excitement? Well, meet Cheryl Adams! As CEO of Animation Research,  who have been pivotal in revolutionising our sports viewing experiences. Join us as Cheryl takes us on a fascinating journey from her early beginnings on a farm to leading a team of software developers. To say her career has been eventful would be an understatement - from working on a power station in Fjordland National Park to leading system tests for Meridian Energy in the infamous Y2K, Cheryl has done it all!

Communication is key - a mantra Cheryl lives by. Drawing upon her experiences, Cheryl shares her insights on managing people for success. Her strategy? Let's just say it involves a lot of empathy and open conversations. As someone who has also grappled with the challenges of consulting and the art of balancing multiple clients and projects, Cheryl is no stranger to the pressures of the tech world. But it's her return to Animation Research that truly marks a turning point, as she spearheads projects that aren't just innovative, but life-changing too.

But what lies ahead? Cheryl has some thought-provoking insights into the future of Animation Research. She believes diversity will play a critical role in the field, fueling innovation and fresh perspectives. And as for the future of VR and AI in sports? The possibilities are endless! From personalizing sports experiences to tracking players and analyzing data, Cheryl sees a world of potential. So whether you're interested in tech, sports, or simply love a good success story, this episode promises a wealth of insights, straight from the top of the tech game.

Hear how some of Australasia's most interesting and successful people are utilising People, Technology and Processes to live a productive life.

For more information on Lee Stevens visit www.leestevens.co

Sponsored by workforcery.com

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Time and Motion podcast with me, your
host, lee Stevens.
For over 25 years, I've workedwith businesses all over the
world to improve the technologyand the people within them.
In this podcast, I share someof my experiences and I chat to
guests who generously sharetheir stories of how to or, in
some cases, how not to live aproductive life.
I hope you enjoy the show.

(00:28):
Hello and welcome to thisweek's episode of Time and
Motion with me, lee Stevens.
In this week's episode, I catchup with Cheryl Adams, who is the
CEO of Animation Research.
They're a company founded bySir Ian Taylor and they're the

(00:51):
company that make the graphicsthat really complement and
augment our viewing experiencewhen we're watching sports like
golf and Major League Baseballand Cell GP on the television.
Cheryl talks about her life intech, how she's achieved some of
the things she has, and shetalks about some of the
challenges she's overcome.
And she also talks about thestate of the nation in

(01:13):
consulting and New Zealand techin general.
So a fascinating interview wellworth listening on with the
show.
Cheryl Adams, welcome to theshow.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Thank you, Lee tena kuei.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
How are you today?

Speaker 2 (01:28):
I'm very well.
Thank you.
It's a lovely sunny day downhere in Dunedin and that's
always a good day in the deepsouth.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
And, as you've always said, the sun's always shining
in Dunedin right.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Absolutely.
I've never seen anything aboutthe temperature down here, so
it's definitely a bit cold, butthe sun is shining.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Okay, so Cheryl is CEO of Animation Research
Limited, and most people knowthe founder of Animation
Research, I'm assuming, so Ijust want to explain, maybe for
some of those internationallisteners, who Animation
Research are and what you'redoing there.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Sure.
So our founder is Sir IanTaylor and we are most famous
for our work in the sportsindustry.
So sports graphics If ourlisteners have ever watched golf
, the PGA Tour or the DP WorldTour, they will have seen our
graphics on TV.
America's Cup that's where itall started, back in 1992.
That was the first time thatAnimation was used to actually

(02:21):
make sense of pictures, becausewatching boats race up and down
courses is really really boringif you don't know which one's in
front.
We also do Major LeagueBaseball 300, 3000 games of
Major League Baseball a year.
And Cricket is our other mainsport that we're doing, and
we're devil in motorsport, keento do a bit more of that.

(02:42):
And there's very other sportsthat we do, but that's what
we're most famous for, so it'sactually our sporting brand.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
And is this things like the graphics?
Is it like when people get insub-tutu?
Is it all of that?
Is it everything relating tothat sport, or is it a
particular type of animation?

Speaker 2 (03:00):
We can do what we call our 2D graphics.
So that's all the clock and thetimer and who's been subbed on,
subbed off.
2d.
It's not our 4T, our sweet spotis 3D, so where you're seeing
the action in a way that thepictures can't tell the story.
So you're actually.
We build 3D models of all thestadiums or all the golf courses

(03:24):
and then we can put our virtualcamera anywhere on that course
and we get data and we're at theflight of the golf ball, where
it's landed, or the slope of thegreen and we can display that
so that you at home canunderstand why you're at home
and why the professionals areout there playing the game.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
And I had to explain to my Nan when I was over there
in May that those lines aren'tactually in the water right when
you see it on the boat.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Exactly exactly.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
So, yeah, she got it eventually.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
There's not somebody out there dropping little
circles off the end of the boatto create a layout.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
The diet just stays there for her.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, that's not quite how it works.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
Okay, alright, so we'll come back onto animation
research in a moment, so let'sgo back a little bit.
So where did you grow up andwhat was your life like for you?

Speaker 2 (04:14):
So I grew up on a sheep and crop farm in the
middle of the Canterbury Plains,so quite a long, long, long way
from technology, and aboutspent my formative years, I
guess, driving a tractor or inthe sharing shed or grabbing
fossils.
And then my parents they sentus all the way to boarding
school.
I had three brothers and myself.
We were all sent to boardingschool and so I suppose at age

(04:37):
13 I sort of tell people that Ileft home and my first real job
was working the school holidaysback on the farm.
And so, yes, we did get wages.
The hourly rate there was noway it was anywhere close to
minimum wage at all.
So we certainly all had a verystrong work ethic.

(04:58):
The job was never finished, andso I learned that from my
parents, but also that whoeverwas there needed to do the job.
So, as I say, I remember my dadteaching me to drive the tractor
for the very first time, and itwas old Nakhjord, which is the
typical tractor that you'd seein a kid's storybook, with the

(05:18):
red tractor with the sort ofstick seat.
Unfortunately, our field wasquite old at this time and dad
had to crank start it, so it wasgoing full, full, full, full
noise.
Like noise, literally.
At the time he was explainingthat you know the difference
between where the throttle wason a tractor versus what was on
a car and and that the brakesthere was two pedals for the
brakes, one for each wheel, sothat could help you go around

(05:39):
corners.
And off you go.
I had the raking of the hay todo and it goes off you go.
Whatever you do, don't let itstop.
And off I went.
So it was certainly whoever wasthere got to do the jobs, and
I'm very thankful that myparents never had any questions
about with her.
It was the sons of theirdaughters that were doing the

(05:59):
work.
We just all mapped and got thejob done.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
So that does feel like it's definitely a New
Zealand, quite a common NewZealand story, where people
growing up on a farm or in afairly rural environment but
still managed to get themselvesinto commerce and business.
And I mean, I imagine there'sprobably a lot of skills you
acquire and obtain which youprobably don't truly appreciate
until later on in life.
Maybe Would you say that's thecase.

(06:23):
Yeah, I think absolutely.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
And one of the things that I think I learned that
when I was sent to boardingschool, it was to a private
school so an integrated schoolthey call them here in New
Zealand and so my farming timeI'd spent with sharers and with
Rousies and their farm workers,and then I was working.
When I went to school, I wastalking and interacting with

(06:49):
people that had come from a verydifferent background, and it
gave me an appreciation of justhow diverse people's backgrounds
were and how important that was.
Not to assume anything from thepeople there.
Also, farming, I think and thisis what New Zealand is famous
for is their number eight wirementality, and what does that
mean?

(07:09):
And so we're a small country atthe bottom of the world, a long
way from anywhere.
So if you've got a problem, youdon't have to solve it with the
things that you've got aroundyou.
You can't see who's across,what your neighbours and what
they've got.
You've got to work it outyourself.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
And once again for those listening internationally,
which is actually the majority,now number eight wire.
How would you explain numbereight?

Speaker 2 (07:37):
That's eight gauge wire.
It's probably about four milsin diameter, it's very flexible,
and it was used for fencing,and so a bit of number eight
wire, though, could be put intoan engine to solve where you'd
broken a piece, or used to tieup a hay bale, or to fix the
collar on your dog, or whateverit was, because it was

(07:59):
reasonably malleable.
You can sort of move it withjust your hand strength.
You don't need machinery toform a knot in a bit of number
eight wire.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
So it's probably what we'll use gaffer tape for in
the UK, right?

Speaker 2 (08:11):
It can be used to fix anything, stick anything yeah.
Yeah, so that's the key.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
we're mentally OK, so let's move on a little bit then
.
So first job that wasn'tinvolving animals.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Farming attractors or growing thistles.
Yeah, what was that?

Speaker 1 (08:28):
Well, it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
See I, it's Skull, I don't know.
Just give you this as abackground.
I like the subjects that hadright or wrong answers.
So my final year I did physicsand chemistry, calculus,
statistics and accounting, soeverything that had right or
wrong answers.
And I, when I thought aboutwhat I wanted to do, I was

(08:51):
reasoning.
I was good at school.
I was good at doing school,I'll say, which not necessarily
a good skill to take into theworkforce, but I was thinking
about what I was going to do.
Because I was reasonably goodat school, I thought I needed a
qualification that could earn areasonable amount of money, and
so I thought that I was going tohead down the accounting route.
But my calculus teacher said tome no, that's going to be

(09:11):
boring.
Sure, you should do engineering.
And I, at that point I had noidea what engineering was.
But I went down to the open openday at Canterbury University
and here were all these peoplemaking things, probably not with
number eight wire, but theywere making things and I thought
, yeah, this is cool.
So I was fortunate enough, atthe time, the DSIR, so that's

(09:35):
the Department of Scientific andIndustrial Research in New
Zealand, the GovernmentDepartment were wanting to
encourage women, Maori andPacific Islanders to take
non-traditional subjects.
And so I got myself ascholarship to go to university
to do engineering, because thereweren't very many females to do
engineering and still there'snot that many doing mechanical
engineering, so there's stillwork to be done there.

(09:58):
So with my engineering degreehaving got that, I then went
looking for a job, and my firstjob was on a power station at
Manapori.
So Manapori is a power stationthat is in the Fjordland
National Park.
It's just down the road fromMilford Sound.

(10:18):
So if people were thinkingabout coming to New Zealand,
they usually go to Milford Sound, One of those iconic views of
New Zealand.
And here I was working in anational park, in a power
station.
It was incredible.
I couldn't think I could havelanded any better.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
Okay, and then you ended up at Meridian.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
Yeah, I did, I did so .
Yeah, as I went through my youknow, I spent a couple of years
working for ECNZ, as it was then, on the power stations, and I
had always thought that I'd onlyspend a couple of years in my
first job.
I wanted to discover things,and I think if I'm talking to
young people today, I talk abouttrying to find the thing that

(11:00):
they love doing.
And for me, I didn't think thatany more than a couple of years
in a place.
You know what else might be outthere, and I turned down a job
on that basis.
When I was looking foralternative work, I sort of said
oh no, we can only if you canonly be here for two years,
that's, you're only going tojust get up to speed.
That's no good.

(11:22):
And so I went to a consultingcompany for a while working
about energy conservation andenergy contracts, and then I
wanted to move cities and I sawthat there was a job coming up
as a project manager at MeridianEnergy, and I remember vividly

(11:43):
applying for the job, being aperson that was interviewing me
said oh well, you're an engineer, you must know what lands and
wands are.
And I looked at her and Ithought.
I've got no idea Absolutely.
How am I going to answer this?
Do I be honest?
Or, like I said, oh look, Idon't know.
Elena went that might be anelectrical engineer, I really

(12:05):
don't know anything.
She laughed at me and she saidoh look, I don't know, I don't
know either, Cheryl, here you go, You've got the job.
So to that she and I thoughtthat I'd be working as a project
manager on power stationprojects.
But what?
The time that I joined was inApril 1999.

(12:26):
And I know that because thatwas just before the infamous Y2K
.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
That's when planes were going to drop out this way,
right?

Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, exactly.
Well for us, because we were abig part of a generation
electricity generation here inNew Zealand, and so there was a
whole program of workestablished around no generation
gap, and we knew the wholeworld, all the other electricity
providers around the world,were watching what was going to

(12:54):
happen in New Zealand.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
And it's interesting that context here, because some
younger people listening to somegame.
What is all this?
What?

Speaker 2 (13:00):
is Y2K.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
So essentially, when I talk about planes were at the
sky, what they fall and correctme from what I hear, cheryl is
that because a lot of thesystems have been built not to
cope with anything that didn'tever one, two, three, four, five
, six or seven, you couldn'tstart with zero.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
It started with 9999.
So the computer system 9999 wasin.
Early coding was like a fullstop, it was like an end.
And so on the 9th of September1999, and your system may not
function as it was designed todo, and we actually tested

(13:39):
systems by rolling for the dateson the servers and we were
getting weird, weird outcomes.
So the project that I gotinvolved in was around customer
information and managementsystems.
So basically the system thatyou use to get your electricity
bill tells you how much you'veused the meter readers.

(14:01):
Go out and read how much is onthe meter.
That gets put into the system.
Added a rate to that and youget that invoice and that system
would not work on 9999.
And then same with going acrossto a date that had 2000.
The way that software had beendeveloped they hadn't ever
really thought about.

(14:21):
Oh, what happens when the datemoves to this?
So, all sorts of weird thingswere and would have happened if
work hadn't been done.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah, and I remember working with a because I was
working in private banking atthat time for Investec and I
remember working with this Kiwiguy and because I was a banker,
I used to basically do hisbanking as well.
So I'd be sending likeliterally probably don't want to
know, it's about 30k a monthbecause he was contracting there
.
And I said what do you actuallydo?
He said I'm a Y2K expert.

(14:52):
I said how did you become oneof them?
He said we just tell peopleyou're an expert and they
believe you.
And he said I said and he waslike anybody at five or six
years old in me at the time Isaid how are you doing?
He said well, he said let'sjust say I'm going to have a
house, I'm going to move back toNew Zealand in a year's time
and I'm going to have a houseand it's going to be a big house
and yeah, yeah, but anyway,anyway, so we both survived Y2K

(15:17):
year 2000.
And then you end up at AnimationResearch in 2004.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yes, and even that story, because people look at me
and go well, how did you dothat?
Well, it so happened.
I was working on anotherproject.
This time it was looking at ahydro on one of the rivers here,
and I engaged in animationresearch to build an animation
of what the river would looklike after the dams have been

(15:43):
constructed.
But the project itself gotcanned before any civil work was
done.
And so I ran Ian Taylor at thetime and said oh, projects be
canned.
Can you pick up all the stuffthat you've done and we're going
to put it on the shelf and sendme an invoice for what you've

(16:04):
done?
And he said to me well, whatdoes this mean for you, cheryl?
And I said well, I'm a contractproject manager because I've
gone out on my own and wasworking in contract space at the
moment.
So I've got about four weeks totidy things up.
And then I'm looking for a jobbecause, well, I've got one for
you.
And I'm like, wait a minute, Ithought I was firing you but it
turned out he was hiring me.
So possibly, I don't know amonth or two early I mean, maybe

(16:28):
, not even that maybe a monthlater he had convinced Airways
New Zealand.
They were a state ownedenterprise, a government run
organization.
That animation research was theright company to build an air
traffic control simulator andthat's for training air traffic
controllers.
So all those clever people thatsit atop a tower and direct

(16:52):
aircraft to make sure that theyeach have their own flight plan
and they don't.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
Frank 3D chess.
Someone said to me yeah, yeah,exactly.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
They're visualised and the selection of people that
can do that and see in 3D isvery important.
But then, of course, thetraining is also extremely
important, and what Airwayswanted to do was reduce that on
the job training as much as theycould, as well as identify
quickly if people weren't goingto be, if it wasn't the career

(17:22):
for them.
So we built a simulator thathad all of the airports in New
Zealand If 360 view out thewindow, basically Microsoft
flights them, sort of backgroundengine, pilots able to return
those to respond to what the airtraffic controllers were saying
, and we also emulated all theequipment in the control tower

(17:46):
which is still being used todayby Airways New Zealand.
It is so.
They're ADCs and ADCs aroundthe world and it's been sold to
a number of places as well.
So that was the first time Iever ran a team of software
developers, a team of nine.
Never done it before.
I didn't really have a CV,apart from having to apply for

(18:07):
the job, apart from telling Ianthat he didn't have a job
providing animation for theWaitaki River any longer.
So a bit of a weird change, butI guess I didn't start in a
work ethic.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
The Airways project would have probably been the big
one and, as you say, they usethat to train air traffic
controllers all around the world.
So he obviously had a veryclear vision in terms of
augmenting things.
I think it's probably bestphrase, but 2004 to 2011,.
So he did six years as ageneral manager.

(18:42):
I'm guessing that would havebeen a pretty varied role.

Speaker 2 (18:45):
It was incredibly varied and I learned a huge
amount about myself in that role.
So one I learned that I couldrun a team of software
developers and I learned that Ididn't have to know.
I think I said earlier in theconversation that my final year
at school I did all the subjectswhere you knew a right or a
wrong answer, and I really gotto understand that it didn't

(19:09):
matter if I didn't know theanswer, and that's something
that I share a lot.
With people coming forward,I've got skills to bring.
It's not the answer, but I canbring people together that can
work through to continue to cometo an answer, and so that was
certainly interesting there.
And then we were involved inAmerica's Cup.

(19:30):
It was when we started out inour cricket, so cricket had just
got into.
I suppose they were one of thefirst sports to have a video
assistant.
We've talked to all theirdecision review system and we
got involved in gettingaccreditation for that to try
and take on cricket around theworld.
It was also the time that I hadmy children and so all of a

(19:53):
sudden I couldn't actually worklate into the evening because I
had young people in my life athome, and so up until then,
working hard had been the waythat I would get through any
crunch points or working long,and I prided myself on the fact
that I didn't need a huge amountof sleep to still be quite

(20:16):
productive the next day.
And that was taken away from mewith kids, because I needed to
also be a parent.
What I got to a point where oneday I walked in to see my
dental hygienist.
This is somebody they go andsee once every six months, so I

(20:37):
don't really have a strongrelationship with them.
I walked in and she asked mehow I was and I burst into tears
.
So that was a pretty goodindication that I wasn't
actually very well, and so Iwent to see GP.
We found a therapist to help methrough that and worked through

(21:00):
why I was putting so muchpressure on myself, and we
talked a lot about that.
I'm a bit of a perfectionist,I'm a bit OCD, and the thing
that I'd never heard of beforethen was this idea of demand
sensitivity, which I have inspades, and so for those out
there that don't know whatdemand sensitivity is, it's this
idea that if you're with agroup of friends and you're

(21:21):
having a good time, somebodymight say, oh, we should go out
for lunch.
So the demand sensitive personwill go right, I've got to
organize the lunch.
And so they organize the lunch.
And then not only that, but Imight say pick the restaurant,
et cetera.
We go there and, for whateverreason, the service is bad or
the food is terrible, and thedemand sensitive person will
think that that's their faultbecause I picked the restaurant

(21:43):
and so that's nothing to do withthat.
And so they were the kind ofthings that I explored with my
therapist to understand what wasdriving this inability to ever
get to a perfection, and wetalked about needing to find
ways to reduce that.
And so I needed to leaveanimation research.

(22:05):
There was too much change forme to be able to manage that and
manage my personal life as welland manage my health.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
And around that time obviously having two young kids
as well.
You add that into the mix.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
I was never going to be a stay at home parent, and
neither was my partner, but wewanted to have kids, and so I
joke that my kids were thenoutsourced from about three
months and, as a result, my kidswell, I won't say as a result,
but it so happens that that'sturned out to be quite
independent.
And then they I was teachingthem how to use the bus at age

(22:46):
seven and eight and bought thema burner phone so that they
could find them in case ofemergency and so that they could
get around and get to theirafter school activities, because
I wasn't going to be there andat times that that was.
That was pretty hard, you know,wanting to be able to
participate in all that theywere doing and feeling that I

(23:07):
wasn't pulling my weight withthe other parents, you know, and
parents required all of thatsort of stuff, and we all go
through our own challenges there, and I think it's really
important that everybodyapproaches those things whatever
might be happening in theirlives.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
But I think you go and life just chucks a whole
heap of stuff, especially withkids, right as well.
I think you have a say.
The other day, like you, likeChrissy, went, went, went a
galvanine for five days and justto check some stuff out, just
went over to to Brisbane and soon, and even though the kids are
a little bit older now, you'renot nearly 14 and 12.
You forget how hard it can be.

(23:46):
You know and you're, you'relucky if you get any work done,
if you're, you're not doingschool runs and sports runs and
you know lunchboxes and whathave you.
And I think you know.
I say I take my hat off tosingle mums and single dads.
I just don't know how they doit.
I really don't.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
And I think one of the things I remember talking to
one of the other parents at theprimary school and we talked
about how it was a village in acommunity and that, although I
wasn't there to be the parenthelp, very often at all they
enjoyed being the parent helpand they enjoyed having having

(24:23):
more than just their child inthe car, and the conversations
that were happening and where Iwas able to say, say, put, lean
into the school community was,get involved in the board and
bring some of my commercialexperience to that.
And I think that as long aswe're not going, oh well,
because you've done that, youknow, because you've done a
school run, I have to do aschool run, that sort of yeah,

(24:47):
it's got to all match, it's wegive where we can and that
that's it works.
So but yeah, if you didn't havea tag team, I don't know how
you raise kids without withoutto.
You've got to have at least acouple of strengths as well.
Right, you do.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
You do you kind of, as you say, we call it Team
Stevens.
You know we, team Stevens, isdoing.
That's exactly what it is.
You know we play to strengthsand you wear different hats,
different roles, but but, yeah,you make it work.
Okay, so back to you.
You then joined Intogen, whichis a consultant, microsoft
consulting business here in NewZealand, down in Dunedin around

(25:28):
2011, for I can see on LinkedIn.
So how did that role come aboutand how did you do it?

Speaker 2 (25:34):
I decided that I needed to change roles to one
that was not as changeable, thatdidn't require quite quite so
much, and managing, managingchange.
I polished off my CV which Ihadn't needed to for quite some
time and looked at it and Icould, and lo and behold, there
was a gem role at Intogen, inthe leading, and I couldn't

(25:54):
believe it.
So, yeah, I plugged, plugged forthe job and got got the role in
the team that I joined.
I was, I think, seat eight inthe small little pokey office
with a group of developers whohad really strong I say good,
good heart, but felt that theywere a small afterthought for

(26:19):
this large or large consultingorganization.
Then they'd talk aboutthemselves being seen as the
India of the South, because wewere living in a place that
didn't cost quite as much tolive in as Auckland or
Wellington and we could we coulddo development.
And I said about creatingreally real pride in that team

(26:41):
because they were amazing peoplethat I worked with and we could
do amazing stuff and, luckily,had a great business development
manager that joined the teamnot long after I was there and
we took on, took on the Southand grew to a team of 24 and and
bring in the revenue that thatgoes with that, from from

(27:01):
tripling the size of the teamand a real strong, strong
culture.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Sunny did either and we became so that then I suppose
I have to come clean, becausethis is where our paths cross
and you end up I'm going to usethe term with inverted commons
managing me, which I'm onceagain I have to explain to my
listeners.
So I let's put it this way Iwas probably my my dick stage, I

(27:27):
think you would call it is, youknow, be, or being a bit of an
ass, you know.
And so I can remember when Ileft and I'd set up on my own
and I'd been running managingpeople for a little while, I was
like, oh my God, I can'tbelieve what an ass I was to
Cheryl.
She did all this work, she madeit look easy, and I was just an
idiot.
I was like, why do I have to dotime sheets on a Friday or

(27:47):
Monday and why do I have to dothis and what, and, and I kind
of.
I don't even remember.
I wrote this through.
I don't know if you got it.
I wrote this really longapology email to say I'm so
sorry for now I get it.
Now I get it right, and youjust brushed it off.
Oh, you don't worry about it,you know.
But what I do want to say isyou know, sometimes you work

(28:08):
with people.
It's only when you stop workingwhen you realize how much they
do and how good that they are.
What they do and how you justeffortlessly manage people was
something I was always consciousof, and I think you know.
I look back now and I think andas you probably said, you know,
grown that that team and givingthem a sense of work and
purpose, getting them up to 24people, you must have been doing
something right.

(28:28):
So, yeah, what were those?
What was that secret source?
How did you manage people?
I don't know how you did it.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
If I'm being honest, Well, I love, I suppose, luckily
I I love working with peopleand I I have high empathy for me
.
If somebody's enjoying theirwork, then they're going to do
good work, and I'm a strongbeliever that you don't have to

(28:56):
change jobs to enjoy, or atleast change companies to enjoy
your work.
And so if I can have aconversation with somebody
really open, there's a, therewas a book that I read way back
I just go call, I think calledthe Alliance, which talked about
networking and the informationage or something along those

(29:18):
lines, and they talked about anidea of a tour of duty and that
if we could start having adultconversations with our employees
that they weren't there forlife and so what did they want
to get out of out of the job,and if we can now manage to meld
that with what we needed themto do, then you sort of it's a
set.

(29:38):
I mean, yes, you had youremployment contract, but you'd
see this, this tacit contractbetween the two, that I would
provide that support to enableyou to have that, those skills,
on your CV, and that that couldthen take you to the next job,
be that within Intogen or bethat some somewhere else.
And so every single person thatI worked with.

(30:01):
I wanted to understand what,what motivated or what drove
them and some of my best storiesand I won't talk about you in
particular- Thank you.
There's one, one person that Irecall who was part of our
development team.
He had a disability, which thatgetting out to client client

(30:28):
site was difficult, and sotherefore, he always got given
the rubbish jobs that could bedone from the office, and he was
pretty disenchanted by thatenvironment that it was in and
we sat down and had a chat.
Now, at the same time, I hadlooked at how the business was

(30:49):
running and what if you'rerunning in a professional
services organization, thelevers you've got to pull the
hours that somebody spends on ajob that you can charge for.
That's the premise of aconsulting business.
There's no getting away from it, and so people complain about
time sheets, like yourself Sorry, I wasn't talking about you,

(31:09):
but people complain about timesheets.
You need to get them tounderstand that that is the what
makes the money.
You've got to have time to doours, and so you've got to be
driving that, and it's, as faras I was concerned, these are
the time sheets and theconsulting organization or
politics and a clientorganization, you take your pick
, whichever way you want to go.

(31:30):
But anyway, going back to mystory, this person was pretty
disenfranchised and so there wasan opportunity for a secondment
and to support.
And if you think about it,support they generally don't go
out and see the client becausethe product has been built and
now they're fixing it.

(31:50):
And it was supposed to be athree month secondment and at
month three I said to him areyou interested in coming back?
He goes no, I love it.
This is, this is.
This is a place because I getto come in every day to.
I don't know what the problem isgoing to be, but I know it's
going to be a hard one.
I know I need to fix it now andI can do it all here and I

(32:15):
don't need to worry about that,that my MS might kick in and
mean that I can't, can't, walksomewhere, and so that's that
kind of story where a really,really disenfranchised and
employee moved to a star in theorganization and became a lead
in his own right in that area.

(32:35):
They're my, my good stories,and so I think you asked me what
my secret source is, and it's abit.
It's caring deeply about thepeople, and that includes your
home life too.
Like you can't come to work,you can't give yourself 100% to
work if you haven't, if you'regoing through a divorce or
you're worried about your kidsor whatever it might be, all of

(32:55):
those things that they they haveto come first, and certainly
that approach stood me in great,great, great step.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
And I think you, and I think one thing that you know
once again, it's only when you,you, you reflect.
So, once again, when it's timesheets and it's your money, you
do your time sheets and yourealise you're not going to get
paid.
And I think it's interestingbecause I think one thing that
you used to do is you used tokind of protect your team from
all this stuff that was going on, the politics and the noise,

(33:26):
just so they could focus onbeing good at what they do.
And you know that's the skillin itself.
But yeah, when you have to,when you're having to do that
managing, as I say, I didn'ttruly comprehend how much of
your job you know generalmanagement could be 75% of your
old right some time just doingthat.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
And so but that's your job.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
Your job to manage and protect.
And being a farmer of talent,as one of my old bosses used to
say as well, I kind of sensethat that's what you was doing
as well, right?
Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
So, as much as I could protect the team from from
that and enable them to get onwith their job, that that's, and
I still see that as my role.
I mean, yes, my time is now CEO, but if somebody asked me, what
does, what does that do?
My job is to remove theroadblocks so that the team can
can get on and do stuff, andthose roadblocks might be, you
know, financial roadblocks orrisk roadblocks or insurance,

(34:17):
roadblocks or whatever they are,but all of those so that the
team can get on and deliveramazing stuff.
And I absolutely see myself asan enabler of people.
It's clear where it should be.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
What do you think some of your frustrations would
have been working for aconsultant business?
Because I think you know, youhear stories about burnout and
you hear about over, you knowclients who've got champagne
taste and lemonade money, whichwas one of my frustrations.
Yeah and so and it's it's.
I always say, you know peoplesay, well, what was your trade
or what was your specialism?
I say, well, being a consultantis a specialism, trust me, I'm

(34:54):
not going to wear the robe.
And there's this whole lot ofconsulting which you know.
I suppose we could do a wholehour on one in a podcast.
But from your perspective, whatwere some of those frustrations
that you might have had in a,in a consulting environment that
maybe you wouldn't have gotelsewhere?

Speaker 2 (35:11):
I think the big thing being a consultant is that you
don't have one boss, one client,one strategic direction.
You've got a number of thosehappening at the same time and
so juggling a project.
Everybody says that IT projectsrun over time or over budget.

(35:33):
My response to that is that anIT project has never, ever been
built before ever.
It's a different.
It's always either a differenthardware or different operating
system or different software onthe top, and you take those
three changing things, so, ofcourse, exactly what it is.
And the other aspect is tryingto codify what's in people's

(35:55):
brains.
And so, as a client, we'llthink that they're describing
something, and they aredescribing something to the best
of their ability, but untilthey see something, they don't
know exactly what it is thatthey want or don't want.
And so for me, the mostfrustrating thing working as a
consultant was the crunch wherewe had, say, a project which

(36:18):
necessarily needed additionalwork because we'd identified
that there was more than whatwas understood at the start of
the project, and then anotherclient that was expecting your
team to be able to start on that, and of course you couldn't get
those two clients to talkbecause they're completely
different businesses.

(36:38):
It's not going up to the CEOand saying, oh look, we've got
this because of this and sotherefore we can't do that.
You're different businesses andsome of our clients understood
that and were willing to workwith us.
Others and I'm going to sayrightly so they had their
strategic imperatives to hit andso they would push really hard

(37:01):
and no excuse or no reason wasgood enough.
So that's the most frustratingthing.
So if anybody's thinking aboutheading down the path of
consulting, be prepared fortimes.
It doesn't matter what you do.
You're not going to be able todeliver to everybody.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
And interestingly so, the best thing I did was
bringing in someone who wasbetter at that stuff than me,
and so we used to call itresourcing Jenga.
So Sata, who worked with me,she was just amazing, and so she
she brighter days truly kickedon once she came on board
because she did that stuff sowell.
But we used to call itresourcing Jenga.
And the other thing that's kindof interesting consult.

(37:41):
Everyone thinks that thereshould be this really high tech
state of the art kind ofresourcing model where you
forecast and all this stuff.
Really, it's a spreadsheet on aMonday in most organizations
which you know is going to be ata date by the Wednesday because
the clients aren't ready oryou've had the information in
time, or you know, or somethingthat's taken more of a president
than the others, and so reallyis.

(38:03):
It's definitely fly by the seat, your pants, kind of stuff,
right.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
And so you needed to have a few sandbags and a few.
You know, prayer and hope.
And it's the worst thing as aconsulting business is for
people to be sitting on thebench, and it's terrible for the
people that are sitting on thebench because they're coming and
they want to do work, and it'salso terrible for you as a
business because obviouslyyou're paying them their salary

(38:28):
and they're not earning fromthose hours that they're
spending.
And so there were times whereyou just do a project at risk.
You just start because youweren't going to even get those
hours back.
You can't bank that, and so youhad to kind of guess where you
might be able to do it, or havea few of those up your sleeve,
if you can, to try and try andrun the team as best you could.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
And it's like there's probably 150 of those little
things.
Right, you learn as aconsultant that you have to have
up your sleeve, as you say,ready to go.
And the other thing for me waslike the over subscribe element.
So I'd have the team or Lee,stop selling, we've got way too
much work on.
We can't do any work foranother six months.
And you sit down and you go,okay, show me which client I'll

(39:14):
go.
Yep, they won't start.
They won't start.
Oh, no, they've told us they'regoing to be ready next week.
Yeah, they won't be ready.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
Trust me, I'm okay, you go for it.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
And I like I see I couldn't, couldn't work.
Yeah, thank you.
Wrong sometimes, yet to kind ofpush things out a couple of
weeks, but it was never the bigcatastrophe that I always
thought it was going to be,because, no, generally, you know
people, things happen right,and so that's the world of
consulting.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
So yeah, the other.
The other thing that I justliked the most about consulting
was October.
So this is leading into the NewZealand summer, Late October,
the phone would start to ringwith people desperate to have
projects finished by Christmas.
And I like I'm going, I feellike I'm sorry, but what sort of

(39:52):
business do you think I'mrunning, that I was sitting here
waiting for this phone call foryou, that I had my team all
been just waiting for this phonecall, because you know it's
just not going to happen.
The team is booked and theybooked, you know, for at least
four weeks, ideally six.
So we're not going to be ableto start this project, you know,
two weeks before Christmas andthat's not a good time to be

(40:13):
starting starting things.
And I think consulting in theNorthern Hemisphere might be
slightly easier because at leastit's not at least just summer
holidays and Christmas don'tfall at the same time.
Well, actually no, you're right,you have a side of that, that's
again.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
So I have this little running joke with a no, I've
been in nearly 10 years now so Ican say these things.
So basically, kiwi's only work10 months a year, right?
So essentially because whathappens is and that's actually
nine months, I'll say so becausewhat happens is November
they're thinking about Christmas, and then you say, don't really
start any projects.
December they're havingChristmas and January they're

(40:46):
getting over Christmas.
So that gives you February toprobably November to get
anything done, and so that's abit of a running joke, right.
And as you say, we used to callit gobbledubbies which has got
to be done by December, right?

Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you I hear you Okay.
All right, so you obviouslydone your time.
Then you say you're far more ofa talent and manage some big
egos myself including.
I think you, just you know, Ithink that's credit to you, to
how easy you made that look, youknow, just in terms of how you
did that and I think you know.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
So, yeah, I want to thank you for Thank you, but
also the I mean anybody whoknows you well or even said you
here.
You're able to talk, you'reable to talk eloquently, you're
able to put things in a way thatmake people go yeah.
And so for us, it was finding arole that enabled you to do
that.

(41:34):
And so, moving from a I meanyou wouldn't ever going to be a
team mate let's be realisticthat wasn't your forte, I know.
I know, I know we tried it, butbut it wasn't your forte but
moving into a product specialistrole where you got to work
directly with clients and thatinitial contact, and so again,

(41:56):
it's just a case of seeing whatit is that you'll you've
particularly got at, and I thinkthat doesn't come through in a
CV.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
Yeah, and interesting , as you say, because that was
the bit that Sutter did so muchbetter than me, right?
And once again, you can do it.
You can be an okay team leadand once getting consulting you
have to and I was explainingthis to somebody the other day
you have to wear so manydifferent hats.
You're a BA, you're a team lead, you're a project manager,
you're a, you're a, you're asolution specialist, you're a
sales person, right, youactually all of those sometimes
on the same day, butrealistically, you can only

(42:25):
really be good at two or threeof them.
So the idea is to focus onthose bits, like you're saying,
and then leave the other stuffto someone else.
Okay, so back to you.
So you left Intigen in 2018.
So once again went back toanimation research as CEO, which
is where you are now.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
So, once again, how did that all come about?
Well, so Ian Taylor rang me andasked me if I was bored yet,
and I said why?
Which was probably a mistake,and he goes I've got a project
for you, and I was going oh,I've been here before, but the
project that he had was a jointventure with this mission South,

(43:07):
and that was around foundationskills for adults, and so I
think we've already a canvasthat I am deeply driven by
helping people and so an idea ofbeing involved in helping.
In this case it was adults thatwere incarcerated at the local
corrections facility that didn'thave good numeracy and literacy

(43:31):
skills, and what could we do tobuild a product that enabled
them to develop those skills.
So I joke and I probablyshouldn't that I've been in and
out of prison at least half adozen times in the last four or
five years and that that initself was an an incredible

(43:51):
learning experience and workingwith these people.
That for them, education for me.
I worked out how to doeducation for these guys.
They didn't, and they oftenalso suffered from some kind of
neurodiversity, be that dyslexiaor be that fetal alcohol or be

(44:11):
it just that their family movedaround as they were going
through those sort of formativeyears or that they're perhaps
their final couldn't, couldn'tsupport them in learning to read
, or didn't have the time tohelp with the you know, they
kept walked across the road, thedog walk across the road, all

(44:34):
of that repetitive stuff thatyou need to learn a language.
And if so, if you, if you, youknow, say middle, middle class,
with supportive parents and youmight have some neurodiversity,
chances are you'll still manageto get through through school or
through learning.
Okay, if you're.
If you're not in middle class,if you're in the lower class,

(44:57):
then and you don't have thosemeans or that support network
around you, then chances are youwon't.
And there is a number of peopleand I didn't ask the inmates
that we were working with whathad brought them to Otago
Corrections.
I was just keen to try and finda way to help them have an
opportunity to learn andtherefore become a productive

(45:20):
member of our society, because Ifeel strongly again, new
Zealand's at the bottom of theworld, a long way from anywhere.
The talent that we have here issomething that we want to be
able to harness, to be part ofNew Zealand Inc.
And so we that it was reallyhumbling to work with the guys

(45:41):
and the process, concept,technology, which was across
virtual reality and tablets.
We had a group of 12 inmatesthat were part of co-designing,
co-developing the system, withus telling us what would work,
what wouldn't work, and the 12that we tested.

(46:01):
Each and every one of themeither had a step improvement in
the electricity or the numeracy, or both, and that's a pretty
exciting thing.
And having conversations withthem about how it's going to
change their lives.
Having a conversation with oneguy who, after we only had
worked with him for about sixweeks and then he was being

(46:22):
released on parole and he wasasking whether we were doing it,
providing this educationoutside of the wire, and this is
the numeracy and literacy.
I'll put it in the commas theclass for dummies and people
wanted to be part of it, and hewanted to do it when he wasn't

(46:44):
incarcerated.
He wanted to continue becausehe could see that that would
help him learn and thereforechange track.
And so that opportunity, or thevision of that opportunity, it
was enough for me to say yes, Iwant to come back to the chaos
that is animation, research.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
And what was your feeling around working someone
like Sirian?
Because a lot of people wouldbe looking at and going like you
know it's been someone's shadowor someone just keeps popping
in and you're constantly, youknow, being aware of their
presence.
I guess you know when they'reso inspirational and so dynamic
and so good at what they do.

(47:27):
So how did you deal with that?

Speaker 2 (47:29):
Well, the interest, because I told you, part of the
reason why I needed to leave inthe first place and to come back
to that was a little bit ofworking through.
But I think I've matured a lotin my ability to deal with those
demands and my demandsensitivity.
I understood that.

(47:50):
But equally, what Ian is verygood at is I did find people
that can do things that he can't, and he knew that he wasn't the
person who could provide thatfinancial stability for the
company.
So my coming back alsocoincided with an investment
into the business and so he waslooking for somebody that would

(48:13):
be able to provide the reportingetc.
We established a board.
That was again part of theagreement between us for me
coming back, so that it wasn'tjust either my way or what he
wanted to do.
And we still have very robustdiscussions, ian and I, very
robust at times, and sometimeswe follow the path that he's

(48:38):
suggesting.
Sometimes we follow the paththat I'm suggesting.
I look at animation research andI see diversity.
Now, it's not diversity inethnicity, because we're not
very good at there, but Ian came.
He was a half Maori.

(48:59):
He brought up in a culturaloral storytelling.
He then became a singer in arock band before he got a law
degree and then he became atelevision presenter.
So he has no idea what acomputer can't do, whereas some
of the developers we have herethey've got Rhodes medals for

(49:22):
their mathematics ability, onecomputer programming courses in
that and against universities inthe US, and they have no idea
what sort of stories you couldcould tell with computers.
And so you bring that togetheralong with a bunch of sports
fanatics and a group of artists,and those different viewpoints

(49:49):
all have an equal voice at thetable, and that's how we develop
things.
I suppose we're alwaysinnovating.
So, going back to your question, how do you live or how do you
work with that?
I mean, I knew I was comingback to that and I'm not the

(50:09):
person that will ever besuggesting this is the new
bright vision or whatever, but Ican certainly bring a team and
deliver that Absolutely, and Ialso make the most of the
opportunities that Ian affords,and I don't know that I would be

(50:31):
a CEO if he hadn't offered methe role of CEO, and so that
then has opened many doors forme.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
So one of my frustrations in New Zealand
which still persists is thisthing around the tall poppy
syndrome.
So good example this was wewere talking about just off
there about went to the hightech awards and Syrian was
awarded with a lifetimeachievement award or something
on those lines, which isfantastic and not one person in

(51:00):
the room.
I don't think most people inthe tech community would be
quagmine that.
And then what follows is thatweek after is there's a whole
heap of people in the media justliterally firing shots and go,
well, he's privileged and he'sdone this and he, you know, oh
my God, this is one of the guys,is one of the most self made,
you know most caring, givingperson.

(51:22):
What I can see and read betweenthe lines and there's a shooting
him down.
You know like literally, justit's literally shots incoming
from different media sources.
You know different, you knowblogs, etc.
So I mean you must be aware ofthat when that happens.
So how do you deal with stufflike that when you've got people
just slanderous comments insome ways, but yeah, how do you

(51:44):
deal with?

Speaker 2 (51:45):
that, and I think it's really important that we
separate innovation, researchand who I am from, city and
tailor and his brand, and theyhave been reasonably synonymous
for quite quite some time.
But I think he is incrediblygood at making people think a
different way and he is veryfocused on the people and that

(52:11):
so he will.
He will shoot, shoot, and Isometimes it feels like he's
shooting from the hip, but hetells a story in an amazing way
that you can always also me, Ican.
If he paints a picture, I cansee myself in the picture, and
sometimes he paints a picturewhich I don't agree with either,
and so sure I mean I'm notgoing to be out on social media

(52:33):
shooting, shooting them down,but other other people will not
know your name anyway, so yeah,but I also I'm I don't.
I don't know that I'll ever besomebody on social media
expressing those, because I dothink that it's like you need to

(52:54):
have a conversation.
And so it's recognizing that,putting some ideas out there.
And in his always and this ispart of what, what caused me
issues with my demandsensitivity early on he has
always been somebody that bringsyou an idea, is he describes it
as something you're going to do, but in reality, he's testing

(53:18):
it out and see what people say.
So if you're, somebody goes, ohokay, so we're doing that
instead of all hang on, you're,you're thinking about this or
you're putting this out there,it's an idea, and I think that
the world does need people thatwill do that, but equally, it
will create this, that thedivision, or that, the polarized

(53:40):
comments that come down, and soI don't see that as reflecting
on me.
He's he's as individual.
I'm an individual.
We have our own opinions and attimes, of course, we're locked
locked together because weabsolutely agree.
At other times we're not.
I say to a lot of people youknow, I don't expect that
everybody will like me, so whyshould I like everybody?

(54:01):
And I think that that'ssomething that we should all,
all remember.
But equally, I do respecteverybody's opinion and as long
as I listen to my side of thestory, the other side of the
story, I think that that's howwe get there.
We've got more in common, thenwe've got differences, and
that's what.
What worries me about the worldat the moment is is the, the,

(54:26):
the heightening of the divisions, and you know, races and
tribalism left or right.
You know there's no, yeah,there's not not in the middle,
and I think that that will.
If we take that to an end tothe grade, we're all ended up in

(54:46):
our little tribes.
I need to work with people thatare like us, and that's not
going to be good.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
Yeah, I agree 100%, and it's definitely Santa Salsis
crept in the last sort of fiveidentity politics, whatever you
want to call it.
But I said this, you know, acouple weeks ago.
I said what's wrong with saying, well, I like a bit of what
that party does and I like a bitof what they do and they get
all your center.
So you would say that I don'twant to be anything, I just like
you know, I like good, goodthings, I like you know what's

(55:13):
what's you know doing right byothers.
But, yeah, hear what you'resaying about, about the idea you
made a really good pointactually about separating the
two brands, you know betweenSyrian and, and you know,
animation research.
So, going back to animationresearch, which you're now CEO
of, what's the vision?
You know where where isanimation research going over
the next sort of four or fiveyears?

Speaker 2 (55:35):
I love, love my tagline of world domination from
the data, that's 660, that's660, you aren't doing already
right, there's a few of us thatdo so.
what, what, where?
Where are we going?
I do see our virtual eye brand,our sports brand, becoming a

(55:57):
very well well known sportsbrand around the world.
I see, I feel that we've we'vereached a tipping point, or an
exit, if you like, as far asclients that know and understand
and we understand what oursweet spot is and how we can add

(56:18):
to the enjoyment of of watchinglive sport.
And I see that the trends of ofbeing able to have your second
screen and the statistics on onescreen and the video on another
or whichever way you want tointeract with that, I see that
as as being pretty, pretty key.

(56:39):
The other thing that we'recertainly working on is a more I
suppose no back back to to selfservice type product.
So our product has necessarilybeen a very services driven.
That's been our team runningour software with the greater

(57:03):
speed of internet around theworld and to sports events, even
to golf courses, and I don'tknow Budapest or Prague or
wherever you, wherever you mightbe, if you can get high speed
internet, where then you've gotthe ability to have operators
working from anywhere.
They don't necessarily need tobe on site and that video can be

(57:24):
brought back to hubs and thenthe graphics added to it in a
hub and ultimately I see a placewhere, say, it's got golf
tournament on.
We have into New Zealanders andso we want to watch Ryan Fox
and for this particulartournament perhaps he's not
doing very well, so he's not inthe main group and so he's not

(57:45):
getting a lot of coverage in theprimary feed.
That's going, but we're aproduction house here in New
Zealand and want to create aproduct for the New Zealand
audience and so we can get feedfrom, say, five or six cameras
and the virtual eye feed whichis producing a slide down of

(58:07):
each of the t shots withoutneeding an operator for that.
We can low cost sort of produceour own show which is tailored
for our audience.
So I see that as beingsomething that is going to
become more and more feature, aspeople want the product for

(58:29):
them.
That means for them and thatmight be an online experience
too.
And I also see that data, moreand more data, is going to
enrich the enjoyment of sports.
That, if you can have yourweather metrics coming in as

(58:50):
well as the placement of theplayers, as well as the ball
data as well as I don't knowanything out, and you put that
all into a big database datalake and then you can create
insight from that.
I think that that's going to bepretty exciting, do?

Speaker 1 (59:09):
you see there being some negative connotations of
that as well, because you look,listening to your speak, the
sports that rely on lots ofstatistics I'm thinking like NFL
cricket you know, and you seethem up in the, you know, in the
Gantries, in the high up in thestands, right, and you can see
they're getting fed with thesport.

(59:30):
The coaches are getting fedwith heaps of data running about
plays, et cetera.
So you know, definitely thosestop start kind of sports.
But certainly, you know I'mjust looking listening to you
speak you know again, well, youknow the gambling piece, right,
which is causing huge up to whatthe moment, right.
So how do we now start going?
Well, we can now make biggerbets on, you know, based on
algorithms and stuff like that,you should have a bet on that

(59:52):
league because you know there'sa 73% chance that that's going
to happen again for you.
So do you kind of have to dealwith that?
You know, is there a bit of amoral kind of compass you have
to have as well?

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, and I do struggle with that the
harm that gambling causes, andso I'm not interested in working
directly with gamblingorganisations and it's it wasn't
.
So I'll go back a little bit.
When COVID struck was when Irealised how important sport was

(01:00:22):
to people's mental health.
So part of the reason I leftNational Research aside from my
own mental health that were thefirst time around was because I
was working really, really hardto provide entertainment to what
were, in my opinion, you know,well-off, wealthy, generally
white people, and so I wanted toput something more to, yeah, to

(01:00:50):
help people a bit more, likethe numeracy and literacy
project and going and workingfor a consultant where I could
put my energy into helping othercompanies that were
strategically worked, I think,much, much better.
So what I feel in the sportsspace is that when COVID struck

(01:01:13):
and all the sports stopped,that's when I realised actually
how important it was to peopleto have a connection and a tribe
and a team, and I know thatthey can go to an end degree
with some of the.
You know, let's not go down thefootball fan route, because

(01:01:37):
that's not the only side ofsport too.
But, I think that the good thatsport does is outweighed at the
moment by that the bad.
And, as I say, it was COVIDthat when sport disappeared,
just how isolated that made somany people.

(01:02:00):
So, yes, I do worry aboutgame-leaning and worry about
that information.
We do our work because thecameras can't tell the whole
story and we want to tell thestory and we want people to be
inspired by the professionalism,by the athleticism of the

(01:02:22):
people that you're watching andunderstand how, as a golfer, do
you part that 90 degrees fromwhere the hole is?
Because you've read the lie ofthe green and it goes in and you
can't see that with the video,but you can see that if you put
the swipes of the green on.
So that's what I do think thatsport has a positive role to

(01:02:47):
play.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
Do you see virtual reality being a key part of what
you guys are going to do in thenext six or four decades?

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Not in the sports space.
I think that in the sportsspace, I think we want to watch
video.
I think that, whether they talkabout the Uncanny Valley, if
you turn everything into avatarswhich we could do, from pose
tracking etc.
And you could watch.
You know the robot people, theylook human-esque.

(01:03:20):
But I think that we want toactually have a relationship
with our sporting people and sowe want to see their faces.
We want to, you know, we wantto see them.
You know swear, but you knowthe sound doesn't come through,
or their emotion or their tearsof joy or whatever it might be,

(01:03:41):
and none of that will ever beable well, I don't imagine that
that will ever be able to comethrough.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
I was thinking more along the lines of so if you go
to a soccer game but you knowit's more augmented rather than
virtual, I guess probably moreof the term, so as you say so I
go there and I stick my glasseson on my lenses and now I can
see.
Actually, you know that guy hasscored 15 penalties out of 17
in the last five games.
Or actually, you know, you knowthat guy has spent 23% of his

(01:04:10):
time in his.
You know so it's just as you saythat personalization of you
know, just complimenting whatyou're already watching, maybe
and that's that's.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
I mean.
We talk about that as being thesecond screen.
So if you are live at a match,your first screen is what you're
seeing through your eyes andyour second screen is what is as
a stats that you might have onyour phone.
And I have seen applicationswhere the phone might be able to
put it, might have a model ofthe stadium that you're at as

(01:04:39):
well, and so you can put that upand then see where the lines
are and see that, see that thing.
So, absolutely, because I thinkeverybody watching sport is, you
know, going to become an expert, and the more that we can
provide information to enablethem, because, oh, did you see
that?
And we did that because of this, that, that that's part of the

(01:05:01):
connections and telling thestories and the conversations
that we have postmatch, thedebrief.
Yeah well, that was that.
But we need to be careful thatthe video tools don't get in the
way of the game, and I thinkyou know we don't want to talk
too much about particular sportsgames and I feel that there was

(01:05:22):
a game rugby on the weekendwhere perhaps the video system
which tells my, have stopped theflow a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
So yeah, I don't think your black did too well at
weekend.
Did they off the?

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
back.
No, no, not, not so much.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
Yeah, yeah, okay, all right.
So you mentioned second screen,any other big bets that you're
making that you think you're?
You know big, hairy, audaciousgoals, as used to call them at
Intergen.
You know that you've got that.
You think that animationresearch can achieve.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
I think that AI, of course, has got a big role to
play in that is, rather thandata from sensors.
So you see, you see, all theplayers would generally have
some sort of GPS on their back,etc.
You can't get that informationback to, or you can't easily get

(01:06:16):
that information back to atelevision broadcast quickly.
But if you can use your videowith neural network to do your
player tracking, then you canstill find this speed or you can
still see the meters covered,or you can still see, as we saw
in FIFA Women's World Cup youcan see whether people are

(01:06:39):
offside or not, and that willhave all been done by video
neural networks.
So that kind of of kind ofmatching I see that being
becoming more and more how weget our automation.

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
Yeah, okay, and what's next for Cheryl?

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
Yeah, well, thanks for that.
Well, I am busy working onraising some more funds for my
university and literate projects, so, unfortunately, I had a bit
of a pause while we wentthrough COVID, because everybody
needed to focus on making surethat we were keeping the lights
on and keeping people being paid, and so right now we're looking

(01:07:19):
for social impact investmentsto turn that idea and that
process concept into a businessof its own right, and my vision
for that business is that I getto bring people that have been
involved in the program and theycan come and work on the

(01:07:40):
business, because I think ifit's designed by people that
need this, then it will be amuch better product.
So, whether it become testersor facilitators, or developers
or project managers or businessanalysts or I don't mind, but a
whole ecosystem around enablingthose that currently have a

(01:08:01):
barrier to learning to learn,and so my goal is to be the CEO
of that company within fiveyears.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
Yeah, good, that sounds amazing and I'm going to
ask you a question as we wrap upthe interview that I asked
everyone that comes onto theshow and people we've a love or
hate this moment.
So if you could go back andgive 21 year old Cheryl words of
advice, what would those wordsof advice be?

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
21 year old Cheryl.
She was doing, she wasfinishing her engineering degree
and I guess I was worried, youknow, would I get a job and what
would the job be and what wasmy career going to be?
And I was very, very concernedwas I going to make the right
decisions or the right things?

(01:08:48):
And I think that the advicethat I would like to give myself
was to relax a little bit.
The way that I like to judge ajob and it was a manager of mine
way back said you need to lookat a job with three things,
Cheryl are you having fun?
Are you learning something?
Are you being paid well?

(01:09:09):
And as long as if you've gottwo of those things like if
you've been being paid well andlearning something but you're
not really enjoying it that'sokay for a while.
Likewise, if you're having funand learning something, that not
being paid real well, againthat's also okay for a while.
But if you can find a job whereyou get all three of those
things, then that's a job thatyou should stick with.

(01:09:30):
And so bringing I can bring thaton to life as a whole.
I enjoy learning, I loveworking with people, love having
fun and, of course, you needsome kind of income to pay for
the mortgage.
And so I think that, knowingthat and knowing that it was

(01:09:50):
okay not to have the rightanswer, I didn't have to know.
I could just come with myexperience and my background
because it's unique to me and myskills of getting people in
green room and knowing what theycould do.
They were going to see me welland I mean I could never imagine

(01:10:10):
I would have the career that Ihave now when I was at
engineering school, but here Iam in an IT company, so it was
going to be okay.
That's what I tell my three oneyear old self.

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
Good words with advice.
So, cheryl, just want to say abig thank you for making the
time to come on to the show, andI don't think we should leave
it as long between not speakingas we have done, maybe, but yeah
, I really appreciate yourhonesty, your openness and very
inspiring words.
I think for a lot of people outthere, certainly maybe around
consulting and people who arekind of one of the chief big

(01:10:45):
things in the tech world.
So thank you so much for comingon to the show.

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
It's been a real pleasure, Lee.
I really enjoyed theconversation.

Speaker 1 (01:10:54):
So that's another episode done.
Now, if you've been enjoyingthe podcast I'm up to number 26
now and you're thinking Iactually know someone who would
tell a good story and would begood on that show, then I would
love to actually hear from themor you.
So get in touch with me.
That's Lee at Lee Stevens dotco.
That's Lee at Lee Stevens dotco.
Or contact me on LinkedIn andwe'll do our best to get that

(01:11:16):
person on the show.
We'd love to hear from you orthem and see if we can add and
add and add to the people on theshow.
In the meantime, have a goodweek.