May 26, 2024 • 48 mins
Embark on an enlightening journey with Debbie Ireland, where we navigate the currents of Microsoft 365 and the winds of workplace productivity.
As the mastermind behind the Digital Workplace Conference, Debbie shares an ocean of insights—from her roots in the picturesque Rotorua to becoming a tech titan. This episode sails through the perilous missteps businesses make when adopting new technologies and how cultivating a personalized toolkit, like embracing Microsoft Loop, can smooth the waters of collaboration.
This candid conversation that reveals the human side of the digital workplace—where conferences aren't just about the shiny veneer of tech but about the stories and connections that resonate on a personal level. I open up about my own go-to productivity aids, such as OneNote and AI assistants like Copilot, and the transformative power they hold.
The pandemic's tumultuous waves are also charted, showing how resilience can lead to unexpected harbors of opportunity, a revelation that emerged as I weathered the storm myself.
As we cast a line into the future of work, we tackle the soft skills needed to keep afloat amid technological tides. The episode charts a course through the importance of adaptability and the burgeoning back-to-basics movement of 'dumb phones'. With the Digital Workplace Conference on the horizon, this episode culminates with a glimpse into the unmissable event, highlighting key tracks and the vital role of culture in tool adoption. Join us as we set sail on these digital seas, ready to harness the winds of change and anchor in the harbor of productivity.
Hear how some of Australasia's most interesting and successful people are utilising People, Technology and Processes to live a productive life.
For more information on Lee Stevens visit www.leestevens.co
Sponsored by workforcery.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Time and Motion podcast with me, your
host, lee Stevens.
For over 25 years, I've workedwith businesses all over the
world to improve the technologyand the people within them.
In this podcast, I share someof my experiences and I chat to
guests who generously sharetheir stories of how to or, in
some cases, how not to live aproductive life.
I hope you enjoy the show.
(00:28):
Now I'm all about productivity.
If you're a business, there's agood chance you're likely using
Microsoft 365.
The question is, are you usingeverything that's in that box of
tricks that you pay for, andare you making your business
(00:50):
more productive by using thosetools?
In today's show, I catch up withDebbie Island, who is the queen
of productivity acrossAustralia and New Zealand and
also organizes the digitalworkplace conferences, which is
all about how you get the mostout of business productivity
tools like Microsoft 365.
She's organizing a conferencethat's on at the end of July
(01:11):
over in Australia, in Sydney,and I caught up with her to see
how that conference is going interms of organization and just
to hear about some of herthoughts and observations on
some of those modern tools thatwe have at our disposal Now.
This interview was done as aplan B.
We had a few technicalchallenges so we did it over a
recorded Teams call.
We've been able to enhance theaudio to somewhat okay standards
(01:33):
, so hopefully it doesn't enjoyyour show listening too much.
So on with the show.
Debbie Island.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Thank you, good to be talking to you again.
It's been a while.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
How's it going over in sunny New Zealand?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, it is sunny today, so I've got to be
thankful for that, I guess.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So, debbie, you and I have kind of known each other a
few years, so I think it'sworth mentioning that to the
people listening.
But for those who kind of don'tknow, you or you know picked up
this podcast and just doing adrive or doing their weekly jog
or daily jog Just tell us aboutyou.
What's your background and howdid you get to where you are now
Born and bred?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
in Rotorua, new Zealand, I have plenty.
I grew up there for the first17 odd years which is in a
semi-lifestyle block, I guess,semi-rural Grew home veggies and
all that kind of stuff.
Had very hardworking parents.
That taught me that ethic froma very young age, but also
taught me that you get what youwant when you work really hard.
(02:32):
And we're also self-employed,given we were just having that
conversation so I think thatsows the seed too, and yeah, has
done ever since.
Tried working for people for awhile, but have been actually
running the company I run nowDigital Workplace Results for
the last 17 years, would youbelieve?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Feels like a long time, but yeah, spent some time
traveling.
When I was younger lived inAmerica, lived in Australia,
came back, spent 12 years up inAuckland, did a whole lot of
project management stuff, workedfor a consulting company and
then decided to go out on my own.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
And so was there always an early sign that you
wanted to get involved intechnology and project
management, or was it like a lotof us?
You kind of fell into it.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Kind of fell into it really.
But I think I'd, come back fromoverseas, had some old mates
that I used to work with andthey're like, well, what can you
do?
And, back from overseas, hadsome old mates that I used to
work with and they're like, well, what can you do?
And I mean I don't know what heneed.
And so they needed someone todo database and administration
stuff.
So I decided, oh, I'll bettergo and teach myself access.
So I did, took a book in thosedays, down to the beach at Mount
(03:39):
Maunganui actually, and taughtmyself access.
And then decided, oh, I've gota bit of a lean for this type of
stuff.
I, I've got a bit of a lean forthis type of stuff.
I love it.
And actually one of theconsulting firms I worked for in
Auckland did work for Vodafoneand it was all doing business
intelligence stuff and datawarehousing way back in the day
and loved all that too.
So kind of went so far on thetechie side, but I probably
don't get that technical thesedays.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So you've been running the Digital Workplace
Conference, which has takendifferent guides in different
shapes and forms over the lastfew years.
So we will talk a lot aboutsome of the things that are
going to be talked about in thatconference.
But, once again, for anyonethat's listening, just talk us
through what that conference iswhen it is.
And, yeah, what would peoplelearn by going to that
conference?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Sure.
So yes, it has changed.
It was the SharePointconference back in the day and
we just held our 30th event.
Over the years I've done themin Australia, new Zealand,
singapore, hong Kong, but we'rein Australia for, I think, the
13th time in Sydney in 31st ofJuly, and largely Microsoft 365,
(04:39):
I would have to say so.
Anything if you've got anythingto do with Microsoft 365,
there'll be something for you atall different sorts of levels
and different sorts of topics,but also it's the digital
workplace, so it's theperipheral things.
On what you have to think about, you know, we've got some
amazing case studies and someamazing thought leadership type
(05:00):
sessions to help people getstarted.
If you're in an exec role, thenwhat you need to be thinking
about and planning for.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
And of course.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
AI and co-pilot and all of that stuff is going to be
huge this year.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Everyone's talking about AI, right?
So one of the things I did pickup was you were very quick to
spot trends and, I think, one ofthe things about even calling
it the digital workplace ratherthan just the SharePoint
conference but just talk methrough what you're thinking it
was, because that term isstarting to get a bit of
traction I'm seeing in both NewZealand and Australia.
So, yeah, why did you kind ofmove to digital workplace?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
I think it's wider.
I don't think it's just aboutactually my whole mantra or my
whole life.
Work in the IT industry hasbeen about the people side of
things, and technology really isjust an enabler, and the
digital workplace takes itlarger and wider than just being
about Microsoft tools or anytools for that matter.
(06:01):
The digital workplace issomething we all have to cope
with and deal with and it'ssupposed to help make us more
productive and all of that goodstuff, but it is about the
people at the end of the day andhow we react and act and what
we do to make our lives simpler.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
So another phrase that gets banded around, which I
feel a bit dirty by saying it,but digital transformation.
So I think we all kind of getwhat people are trying to do,
but any kind of insights howthat's kind of evolved in the
past 10 years or even since the30 events that you've been doing
.
What kind of key trends andthings should businesses be
(06:40):
aware of, do you think?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
To be honest, I think it comes back to that people
thing again.
I think Microsoft have finallycottoned on to the fact that you
know it's not about digitaltransformation and how many
licenses we can roll out andwhat kind of tools we can get
people using, but it's about thebehavior changes that you're
after.
So it's not digitaltransformation.
It's actually transformation ofthe people and how they become
(07:03):
more productive.
You know, like you look atthings today, I actually think
the key things are going to behow do we keep the attention
focus on, you know, people thathave got so much stuff happening
in their lives and so many appson their phone and so many
notifications and so forth?
Well, that's all peoplebehavioural.
It's not digital, although it'sdigital that's making it happen
(07:24):
.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot of noise right,
and so I think the one thingthat's probably always I think
we've all been guilty in thepast is that there's now so many
tools that are available thatpeople go, well, which one do I
pick?
You know, you tell me, and youyeah, well, it depends, it
depends and unfortunately, youknow a lot of people still do
that classic what do you wantSharePoint to do?
(07:45):
What do you want Teams to do?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah.
When to use what when?
To use what has to be ourbiggest thing.
We're actually doing tons oflittle infographics at the
moment on when to use what.
I've tried I don't know howmany times to reframe things,
and it's about who you'reworking with Is it me, we us
them, or is it the activitiesyou're doing?
You know I'm doing this, I'mdoing that, I'm doing the other
thing, and then which productslots into which you know which
(08:09):
part of it.
So it's yeah, it's quite acomplex matrix there.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
It amazes me, though, how people think they're going
to get a good result from sayingwhat do you want?
This technology?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
It's this hammer to do yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
What problem do you need to solve?
So yeah, it sounds like I thinkwe get like consultants.
We kind of get a lot of flack.
You'd be surprised.
Well, you probably won't besurprised, but how many
businesses, how many people youspeak to and they go well, just
install SharePoint.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
You know, well, I could, but you know it's not
going to do much.
Actually, yes, you've got themin your toolkit.
So it's not about the fact thatI've got M365, I've got planner
gosh, we should run out andstart using it.
And because we do a ton oftraining and they're like I was
with a client the other day andthey were like well, if you just
offer this training, that's allvery well.
Your early adopters are goingto say, oh, I want to learn
(08:57):
about OneNote, yeah, I'm goingto attend that training.
But then you've got the otherpeople that are going to say,
well, I'm far too busy, I don'twant to take the time out of my
day.
What am I going to use it for?
So, unless they've got somepain points that they've
identified and some real reasonsto actually start using those
tools, why should they expectpeople to?
You know, take them up?
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, 100%.
So on the note of productivitytools, obviously you've got a
long stretched.
You know lots of experience inMicrosoft 365 and obviously its
predecessors.
What do you think some of thetop tools and features are that
are kind of not really utilizedas well as they should be in
that stack at the moment?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Gosh.
So we have a rule internallythat we have to use the stuff.
Obviously, eat your own dogfood type stuff Eat your own
champagne.
Yeah, yeah, obviously eat yourown dog food type stuff, but um,
champagne, yeah, yeah, uh, wehave been playing with loop a
bit lately I was kind ofconfused to start with as to
where it's that and because I'ma massive big one note user and
(09:56):
I've used that extensively overthe years and still do, actually
.
But loop seems to be findingits place because it surfaces
all over the place.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
So if someone listened in explain what Loop is
and what it does, Gosh, I'm notthe right person.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Go and ask Daryl Webster, let me just give you an
example right.
So now, when you create ameeting in Teams, there's a bit
where you can put meeting notesdown the bottom and it creates a
Loop component.
And Loop has all thesecomponents.
One can be a task list or avoting poll, or a note or a I
don't know all those bits but itactually creates these little
templates.
(10:30):
Or you can create your ownloops and so you could be in a
chat and you could throw a loopin there.
You can copy it to one to theother, but it's a place where
people can all jump in and addto that same collaborative
workspace.
Was that a good job?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
What would be a business example of why you'd
use Loop?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Well, yeah, so we've got a reoccurring and I have
these with lots of my clients,so I've set them up with all of
them a reoccurring weeklyproject meeting In there.
People can throw the agenda inthere.
You know you can also insertplanner.
Now the planner that relates tothat one is inserted on the
page.
Any notes you've got.
You can record sentiment forhow the team's doing and a bit
(11:10):
of fun stuff in there.
But that works incredibly wellfor that.
There's another one where wejust added a loop component into
a post in Teams and it wasabout what charity should we be
supporting or what volunteerwork should we be doing, and so
it started off in a leadershipteam and then we copied the loop
component to another teambecause it was relevant.
So you can copy them all overthe place, but you've still got
(11:31):
that track of people addinginformation to it.
It was quite cool.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Nice, okay, so let's go on to the conference.
So, as I say, that's been astable, did I read that right?
2008?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
or 2009 was the first one in Wellington, I think.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Okay, so Copilot told me it was 2008,.
So I trust Copilot Like from anoutsider's perspective, one of
the things I always admire whenI see these conferences is how
cool and calm you always lookmaybe from the outside, maybe
not inside, when theseconferences are being run.
You know, for someone who goesto those conferences, or any
conference, how do you kind ofmeasure the impact and success
(12:06):
of these conferences on boththeir personal and their
business productivity?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I talk to lots of people at the conferences.
So I think you know, like, nomatter how many surveys you try
and get people to do, it'sactually the personal feedback.
And people do contact me andtell me how they're.
You know what they're thinkingand what they're doing.
Contact me and tell me howthey're.
You know what they're thinkingand what they're doing.
And the other thing is that Ihave a really strong usually a
good connection with all thespeakers and a good
(12:32):
understanding and expectationthat they are going to deliver
something that's going to havethe people walking away with
some really tangible takeaways,some applicable stuff.
And I read a great book gosh,the Art of Mind, me Later.
My goodness, what's that book?
And I read a great book gosh,the Art of mind, me later my
goodness, what's that book?
It's a book about.
It's going to annoy me.
Cut that bit out and I'llremind you what it is later.
But it's all about engagement,right?
(12:55):
So I remember reading a blogpost about how the worst thing
about conferences is going tothem and being talked at, and so
I've been trying to drum itinto all our speakers that we
need to make our sessionsengaging, and that it's about
the people's experience, notjust about the speakers standing
up there and lecturing.
It's about them being able totalk to the people in the room
(13:16):
and connect with each other andbe able to figure stuff out on
their own.
Otherwise, you don't learnsomething.
Yeah, trying to make it.
Every year, I try and dosomething different, I think.
Some things work, some thingsfail.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
What's been the successful ones, you think, over
the last few years?
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Definitely that engagement, one Even as simple
as trying to make the room sothat they've got tables in them
rather than theatre style.
You know, really simple stuff.
And then having some breakoutareas We've just started the
Digital Workplace Awards.
So, having some breakout areas,We've just started the Digital
Workplace Awards, so we ran themin Melbourne last year and in
New Zealand the New Zealand ones, actually the Melbourne ones as
well.
They were cool.
It was so awesome to see peopleactually putting themselves
(13:57):
forward for an award and beingso super proud of the efforts or
of the efforts of their teamand then being recognised for
that stuff.
You know like too often we getso caught up in the weeds and
doing all this work that weforget that we've done some
pretty cool stuff you know, whatpeople have produced and the
efforts that people put in.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
And I think it's one of the things I've always found
in the space we work in, becausemost of the stuff we do is
internal right.
So if it was a website, it'd beout there for the whole world
to see and, yeah, it's veryvisible.
But almost everything we do isinternal right and not visible
to the public world is how do wekind of share those stories?
I think that and that for me,is like one of the big things
about the conference, because ofthe nature of this stuff.
(14:38):
You know, it could be like aworkflow you've built or a form
or something you could be at aconference.
You start talking to someone ohhow did you do that?
And you know, you just this,this thing, and blah, blah, and
you're for your way and I think,because it is say, it's
internally facing, I think goingto a conference like this, um,
you know, I think would, for meit's kind of the sharing those
war stories, right, um, and thenI think I agree, 100 around the
(15:00):
table.
So I'm I love the psychology ofthese companies.
I think I even sent you, Ithink I've read a report once
and sent you that report.
But I think it's so true and Ithink as humans, we all want to
connect right and even if you'reintroverted, it might take a
lot out of you, but I thinkyou're going to get a whole lot
more out of that session whenthere's exercises and there's
activities and Sato, who's myold colleague, is very good at
(15:20):
that right, and so, yeah, someof her sessions you could see
people just smiling the minutethey walked out the door.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, there's a book called the Art of Gathering.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
It's awesome.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Take a look at it.
It's about actually it remindsme if we get onto that topic
later but it reminds me aboutconnection in general as being
one of the fundamental thingsthat we all need to look at and
do a checklist on every day onhow we're doing with it.
But Gathering that book actuallyinspired me to do a Christmas
party, something different,rather than just having a party
(15:50):
where you have drinks and foodand everyone comes along.
I actually did something whereeveryone had to bring two photos
.
No, they had to send me twophotos first and then I printed
them out, put them all up on abig you know one of the windows
and then everyone went aroundthe room and talked about those
photos and they were just twophotos about things they did
during the year and there weregraduations, new babies, trips
overseas, you know, like allthese amazing things and it
(16:13):
connected people.
And then I had another littleboard that was a gratitude board
and everyone went and put apetal on and made flowers out of
things that were grateful, youknow whatever, but anyway it was
connection and it was the artof gathering.
So it's not just conferences,but it inspired me in that way.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Anyway, yeah.
So we mentioned some of thosetools.
What are some of your kind ofpersonal favourites apart from
Loop?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
What else?
Well, yes, I definitely useOneNote all the time.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
That's good to take in and section yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
OneNote for all of that and for processes and for
repeatable things that we do.
All of that have been usingCopilot, of course, Starting to
get a feel for how that helps,and used it to draft a document
and use it for replying toemails and some things that it's
(17:02):
definitely.
I can see the advantage.
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Apparently, it's a really good session about
co-pilot.
For dummies, really goodspeaker Names.
Looking forward to that one.
Yeah, the point I think aboutthe coach that operates these
days is they get it out thereand then improve, and so it's
the classic.
You know what's the MVP?
Yes, it will have bugs, yes, itwill have some things that
aren't that great, but at leastit's there.
And yeah, I think it's one ofthose things now, like where you
(17:27):
just you know, like even today,preparing for this interview, I
was like, okay, let's do somequestions for debbie.
You know, I could go and sitdown and use my expansive brain
power to do that, or I couldbasically give it a really good
prompt and that's what, exactlywhat I did.
So I did she's went in when,hey, co-ilot, you're the host of
Time of Motion podcast.
You're interviewing DebbieIreland.
The focus is on personalproductivity, business
(17:48):
productivity, about confidence.
Please suggest some questionsyou think listeners might want
to hear.
It went da-da-da-da-da and soyeah.
So if these questions soundcontrived, I'm blaming Copilot,
but what did you do?
Go on.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I was going to say great quote while I remember it.
You know kind of changing topica little bit here, but you know
how everyone's like oh, I'mscared, ai is going to take over
my job, and it was something tothe effect of AI is not going
to take over your job.
People who use AI will takeover your job 100%.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, yeah and so, but yeah, I mean, I think, like,
as you start work most of usare information workers, right,
but it's just there now and Ithink you, you don't.
It's amazing.
Like you know, even probablysix months ago, you're like okay
, I'm going to have to carve outsome time, white sheet of paper
, blank sheet of paper or blankscreen.
(18:39):
What do I do?
And yeah, you need to tweak,change and improve, but it's
done.
85% of it, and I think that'sprobably one of the things I
will talk about in that sessionis that it becomes.
It's an assistant, it's notlike a tool, it's like you
having someone sitting therenext to you who's an expert on
things, right, and you startthinking about that.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
And, like you said, you have to be able to write the
right prompts.
I think that was my firstexperience was oh yeah, do this
for me, and it gave me back acrap result and it's like, well,
I didn't really give it verygood information in order for it
to surface back to me what Ineeded.
That part of it you need tolearn how to do too.
So what do they call them?
Prompt engineers?
Speaker 1 (19:17):
or something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, it's like early search,right.
So I remember when someone saidto me, like, if you search
BlackBerry, like well, back in2009,.
Do you mean the fruit or do youmean the phone, or you know
what?
Well, I watched it.
Oh, I watched it.
Have you seen the movie?
I watched the BlackBerry movieon Prime and it talks about the
(19:37):
history of it and how they gotinto trouble and you know, for
me it was really like insightfulinto how businesses can get
caught out very quickly becauseyou know they think they're the
best thing and then somethingcomes along like an iPhone and
then they're stuffed right.
But, yeah, there might be someyounger listeners going.
What are they talking about?
So, yeah, go and do a co-pilotsearch on that, the phone, and
(19:59):
it'll tell you.
Okay, so we talked about theconference, which we'll talk
about a little bit in a moment,but one thing I just want to ask
you is and I've asked lots ofour guests is the pandemic.
When you're running conferences, I'm guessing a pandemic's a
pretty big deal, right, and itkind of cripples your business.
So what were some of thelessons you learned there?
(20:21):
And I suppose, how did you getthrough that and what was going
through your mind when you'rehaving to get through those
tough times.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, so definitely.
Fortunately for me, there'salways a silver lining.
So we do conferences but wealso do consulting, training,
change management, all that sortof side of it.
So that side I just had to jumpstraight into that.
I did have to let staff go.
We were in the middle of aboutto put on well, we were about to
put on two conferences.
I had to do massive refunds.
(20:49):
I lost lots and lots of money.
So it devastated us mostdefinitely.
And it's actually beeninteresting because it's taken
quite a bit to come back intothe conference world.
It's like starting over again.
Everyone's shifted jobs, allour databases are different.
You know, people are doingdifferent things.
Yeah, a big challenge there.
But then it's also about whatelse you do with that time and
(21:10):
energy and how you're going torefocus.
I actually wrote a book duringthat time called Work, life,
balance, my Ass, which I think'sfunny because, yeah, that was
right over COVID and I focusedon different stuff.
So I looked at the other partof my business and actually
that's thriving now from adifferent angle.
(21:33):
Yeah, I don't know, and it'salways that resilience factor.
You know, if you know thatyou're going to be hit by hard
times, you somehow find a wayand you somehow get through it
and if you've got thatconfidence and that kind of.
I think that's a problem withsome of the young people these
days.
They haven't had any knocks, sothey haven't had to deal with
adversity, so they don't knowhow to and they're just too.
(21:53):
That sounds terrible.
I sound old now, but it's true.
You know, you kind of knowyou're going to get through it
and something's going to happenand you'll be all right, so yeah
.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah, and I think, like I've mentioned this before,
for the company I obviously hadat the time, we actually got
slammed at the reverse effectbecause at first we were all
worried, but if you think aboutwhat we was actually selling, it
was the whole Teams, teams,going online, yeah, yeah and
I've got to ask you, because I'msure you're the same but how
(22:21):
long have you worked online andworked remotely and all of these
things that people were findingfor the first time?
Speaker 2 (22:27):
I'd been doing it for 10 or 15 years anyway.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, agreed, yeah, and so it's quite interesting
because it's like a few, uh,fairly large businesses, like
you know, that teams thingyou've been talking about, where
you can work remotely and youdon't have that servers.
Yeah, can we have that nowplease?
And I was like, yeah, so, um, Ithink, yeah, we did see some,
uh, you know, a bit of a.
We saw actually actually abounce on on a good bounce on
that, um, and it's interestingactually seeing a lot of
(22:52):
businesses where, um, I don'tknow if you've come across this
there's actually been some falsebounces.
So what's happened is, and Ithink, a lot of fast food places
and the like, the delivery, youknow, is it deliverer and no
sort of and door dash, and then,if you know what, those food
uber eats type thing.
So, apparently what happened incovid?
Obviously there was thisartificial kind of need for it
and everyone's like we're gonnachuck a load of money in what
(23:13):
we're going to do and obviously,once people go back to a
relatively or even a hybridstate, there's less need for
those things.
So it was kind of give anartificial view on how, yeah,
that's the term I was lookingfor.
So, yeah, interesting.
But yeah, I did, you know, Ithink I've reached out to you a
couple of times during thatpoint like that where you just
(23:34):
you can't run conferences, whenpeople can't move around right
or can't get out.
You know what the interesting?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
thing though.
So one thing, because we dolots of training, we took all
our training online, which wewere doing already.
Some of it but that, you know,massively went to virtual
classes, and now we do 90%virtual classes and some in
person, but not so much inperson.
Right, yeah, on-site training.
But I'm seeing a big move forand I still still 100% believe
(24:00):
in that need for the in-personstuff.
You know, like when I firstwork with a client, if I'm doing
workshops, I have to be onperson, person with them on site
, just because I want to get toknow them a bit.
But with the conferences,everyone was saying so are you
going to go online, are yougoing to do it virtually?
And even now they're saying areyou going to do a hybrid?
And I'm like, no, let's go backto that art of gathering and
the connection thing.
(24:20):
This is about being in person,and that's one thing the
conferences give to people.
They get to actually connectwith people, and you don't, no
matter how much we've tried todo that with you know, all this
online stuff, it doesn't to me.
I don't think.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, I think you're less invested as well because I
mean it's interesting thatMicrosoft have kind of really
stuck to that and I canunderstand that.
Right, it probably is a lotcheaper running the scale of
those events.
But I think you're lessinvested because you're like, oh
, if something pops up that'sreally important.
I probably won't go to that now.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Well, actually, but you say that about Microsoft,
and they are now turning aroundand investing, especially in the
States and the UK, in thethird-party events and the
in-person ones.
And they're getting massiveagain because they took all
their stuff.
They spent millions of dollars.
I don't know that we're allowedto be talking about this.
Are we Millions of dollars ondoing their green rooms and all
(25:11):
their production and everythingto do these online events?
And the stats were prettyshocking because people would
register and then the ones thatwould actually watch it.
I don't know how manyconferences I've registered for
and I'm like I'm definitelygoing to go and watch it.
If I don't watch it when it'son, I very seldom go back and
watch it.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, but it goes back to what we were saying
earlier.
Right, but you're getting justas much out of those
conversations in morning, teaand lunch, right out of those
conversations in morning, teaand lunch.
Totally, I reckon that'sprobably just of equal value, as
probably some of the sessionsas well, you know, and I think
so, and which you won't get ononline events.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
No, and meeting and then saying, hey, do you want to
catch up for a coffee?
Speaker 1 (25:47):
you know in two months' time, yeah, yeah, I had
a funny story, so I think I wastalking at the Australian one a
few years ago and so my, my, uhtactic in my sessions was
basically, you know, from the UK, take the mickey out the
Aussies in the New Zealandconference and in the New
Zealand conference, take themickey out the Aussies.
And I can remember, um, doingthe Australian one, I was like,
(26:08):
oh, I'm gonna take the mickeyout that Kiwis, yeah, just ill
ingest.
And uh, had these like threepeople come marching to the
stage, going you can't say thatwe're Kiwis, even though you're
in Australia.
I was like calm down, butactually what happened was it
was all said and just, butthat's probably one of the
longest business relationshipsI've had, I think, just from
that kind of engagement and thatyou know, and you probably once
(26:29):
again, you wouldn't have gotthree people you know going to
give you a stick from something,something you've said, you know
in a nice way, absolutely anonline, yeah, an online one.
Okay, you mentioned training andlearning.
I know that you had shared apoint and you had your digital
workplace results, which you'veseen since rebranded to, but
very much training focused andgiving employees.
(26:50):
So there's an opportunity toget the most out of these
digital tools and gettingcomfortable with, uh, the tools
that are there.
But what are some of thestrategies that you would
recommend for, I suppose, forthose mid-sized to upper-sized
businesses when it comes totraining that Microsoft 365
stack?
Is there kind of any kind of,you know, key things that you
always kind of take intoconsideration?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
We're doing a lot of work at the moment, actually,
with a few rather largeorganizations where we're doing
not just your, you know like alot of companies will do the
change champions, the championsnetwork, when they're first
implementing 365, for example.
But this, the work we're doing,is kind of going back and it's
more reinforcement.
So it's going back and doingchampions programmes and
(27:32):
training programmes alongsidethem, very like over the period
of six months to a year, butkeeping that momentum going and
actually looking at how to embedsome of the tools.
So, rather than just the onceand done training that comes
along with a project, it's theafter work that I'm finding is
(27:53):
the most important and it's notjust a how-to training.
So it's a mix of how-to, it's amix of awareness building,
which is more like your how arewe going to sell this training
and how are people going to knowthat they want to come to it?
So like scenarios, day in thelife type stuff.
And then the other one isactually building it around
giving people the support to dolittle mini projects themselves,
(28:14):
especially in a largerorganisation.
Yeah, we're doing tonnes aroundthat at the moment and I'm
loving it because it's all thatchange and a little bit of
strategy and everything rolledinto one.
But the key thing is it's allabout productivity.
So it's all about how peoplecan actually get more from what
they've got and make lifesimpler.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Why do you think New Zealand and Australia have still
got this huge challenge aroundproductivity though?
Because you read the papers andI think this has been going on
for 10 years now 11 years nearlythat I've been this side of the
planet.
You know Australia and NewZealand really suffer from
productivity and output.
So any kind of views orobservations on that?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
I don't know actually that's a really good question
and I don't know that we suffer.
I don't know where those soyeah.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
So New Zealand, for example, and Australia are
probably two of the lowestperforming countries in the OECD
for productivity, so the returnon hours worked basically, yeah
, you compare that.
I think there's even places,like you know, some European
countries that you've neverheard of that are top of the
list, but yeah, new Zealandespecially.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
I'd be really interested, because I've never
really looked at that, but I'dbe really interested to see what
they're measuring against.
You know, I could say, gosh, isit just because we have a
better work-life balance and wedecide we want to go and do some
other stuff and not focus onwork?
Speaker 1 (29:30):
I think it's return on our work.
So basically the way theymeasure it is that you know if
you're on average, if you weighit's like GDP, right, you have
to take a lot of calculations.
But what they do is they say,well, the return on human hours
worked is X, whereas in the UKand US it's Y.
So US obviously is, is, is isobviously yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I think we should take this part out of the
interview by the way, becauseI'm so unknowledgeable about it,
but I would also, and we cantake this out as well.
I'd also have to question USpeople being more productive,
because every single person I'vetalked to seriously every
single person I've talked towould much rather hire a Kiwi or
an English person, my dadincluded, who lives over there
or an Australian than they wouldan American.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, I think it's more the fact we don't like, and
New Zealand it's that bad.
They even employed aproductivity commissioner.
Yeah, it didn't last very long.
It's basically because the longand short of it is I mean, I'll
take it out the long and shortof it is that we don't invest in
technology as much as othernations.
So it's, you know, we employSharon and Tracy and Colin
(30:34):
because we can see them when ourbusiness would go and build a
solution or technical solutionthat automates, that we don't
need them.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
So there's a lot of that.
That goes on.
The only other thing I'd sayabout that although I know we're
going to take this bit outwould be the Kiwi ingenuity.
We think we know better.
We know we just want to stickand plaster it rather than build
a solution.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Yeah, All right, the future of work.
We talk about what the youngergenerations are coming through,
how they're going to work andwhat a future digital workplace
would look like.
So how do you think businessesshould prepare to stay ahead of
the curve?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Well, I would have to say, obviously it's going to be
about awareness, education andtraining because I don't think
we invest enough in that andgetting people up to speed with
the best ways that they canpossibly work to be the most
productive.
And then, secondly, I'd have tosay that it would have to be
about the people, and I reckonwith the younger generation.
I'm not sure if you're findingthe same things, but they demand
(31:32):
more personal time, well-being,more this, more that than we
did.
We just got stuck in and workedaround the clock and all these
crazy things.
So there's a lot more to beconsidered, I think, than what
we would have been used to,Would you agree?
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Yeah, I agree, and I'm really torn on this because
you know you can absolutely seehow people burn out, because you
know it's all work, work, workand they don't have the outlets,
I suppose.
But we had different ways todeal with it, I guess.
But at the same time, you knowthe fact that they're looking
after their mental health moreand you know they're looking
(32:11):
after themselves more than maybewe did, you know, 20 years ago,
is a good thing.
But at the same time, some ofthat work ethic, and I suppose
the work ethos that we wouldhave is probably not there.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I think that is something about future-proofing,
or planning for the future isactually helping people to
develop those soft skills.
So the well-being, so thetaking time out, the avoiding
the burn out and the overwhelmand all these things that
technology is dumping on us,that are encouraging that or
(32:46):
enhancing that.
So I think that's how peopleprepare.
They don't just think, well,we're going to throw all these
tools at people.
It's also providing the softskills and we never got that
growing up, but I do believethat it's essential.
It's only because I have apersonal interest in so much
self-development stuff that Ilove it all, but you know it
needs to be brought into theworkplace.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
I think it's going to go full circle, though right.
So I read last week that dumbphones are the fastest growing
category of phones, phones thatare just purely text and calls.
So that's what's happening, isthe younger generation is going.
Oh, do you know what?
It's just stressful, and allthis noise and that phone there
just keep beeping at me all day.
So yeah, the old Nokia ones,you know, the little brick ones,
the Mars bar phones.
(33:26):
So apparently they're in thefastest growing category of
phone because you know, Wow.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
That's like I always used to say I loved a Kindle
because all a Kindle wasdesigned for was to read a book.
It gave you the best experienceand I could sit there on the
beach and read my book.
I don't need an iPad with allthe other bells and whistles and
everything to read a book.
So yeah, horses for courses, Iguess.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yeah, and I think I also think it's going to go full
circle in terms of that workethos and it's already happening
.
So I've mentioned this beforein my kind of later stages.
In the company that I sold, um,there was a young chap that
came in and he was, he hadn'tbeen to uni, got, you know, a
year's worth of work under hisbelt and he just came in and
(34:08):
said, um, I can remember hisinterview.
I said so why should we hireyou?
You know, tell us why he went.
Because I'm going to worksmarter, harder and faster than
the guys and girls are five orsix years older than me, because
they're lazy and so you can seeit like and so little
interesting.
So, you know, I think that the,the generations coming through
are probably going to see thatlack of work ethic and you know,
(34:30):
as humans, we all, we all getthere.
You know, nothing reallychanges that much.
It's all cyclical, yeah, buti'd'd be interested to see those
.
I can't remember what thatgeneration's called it's not a.
Y or something.
Yeah, anyway.
But I also think, in terms oftools, though I think that
automation will just be expectednow, like AI, we've mentioned,
and Copilot, which will betalked about at the conference,
(34:53):
like, for example, the work I'mdoing at the moment.
We've talked about notforgetting the foundational
stuff here, which is start usingMicrosoft 365.
Then let's talk aboutcollaboration as that second
wave.
You know that, startcommunicating better and then,
once you've done those two, youcan then do automation, because
you've actually got the buildingblocks in place to do those
workflows, those forms, andautomate employee onboarding,
(35:13):
automate contractor onboarding,all those kind of things that
we've done time and time again.
But it's so much easier to donow with the tools at our
disposal.
So, yeah, I think there's a lotof automation left to do.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
A hundred percent, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Okay, so let's talk about some of the leadership.
I guess you, as a leaderyourself, obviously you've had
to change, you know, evolve alittle bit, but you're obviously
speaking and liaising withdifferent leaders out there in
the workforce.
So what advice would you giveto some of those business
leaders that are looking tocreate like a culture of
(35:48):
innovation and collaboration andcontinuous learning with all
these tools?
You know?
Is there some kind of keythemes that you can or tips you
can give them?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I actually listened to a lady the other day.
I went to a business woman'snetwork thing and one of the
words she used was authenticity.
And she was apparently, out ofall the people that got up and
speak, the one that doesn't dopublic speaking and everything
else and seriously won theaudience and did the best job.
(36:20):
And I thought what did she dodifferently?
And it was being authentic andit just shone through.
Everyone else was trying toohard to be something.
They weren't, and I thinkthat's going to become more and
more critical as we go.
Like you said, with theco-pilot thing, it's only an aid
, it's not you know, and listento the tone that it brings
(36:42):
through.
And then it says, oh, do youwant to change your tone and do
you want to be more casual andeverything?
You still have to be you.
And that still is going to showthrough.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
When you send me an email, if it's, you know,
completely generated by AI, thenI'm going to know yeah, it's
funny you say that because I'vegot a um, I won't name him, but
I got an email for someone, um,uh, who I used to work with, uh,
and and it was, I think it wasjust like a reference request.
He was, I'm saying, really nice,it's pretty straightforward,
like you're happy to help, mate,you know no problem.
(37:11):
But I went back to him and saiduse copilot to either email,
didn't you?
And how do you know?
Because there was no spellingmistakes and he was being nice
to me and he was like yeah, hesaid I'm, you know, as you know,
I struggle with dyslexic andstuff like that, so I use it now
to kind of draft those.
And he said does me 8%?
I said yeah, but it was, youknow, I could tell it wasn't you
and so people want.
(37:43):
But unfortunately there's this,there's this um perception that
people think you have to be acertain type of person and you
have to tick the boxes and Ithink we've kind of like we've
it takes age to actually getthrough that though doesn't it,
you would have to say I meangood grief.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
If I look back to how I was, it's like gosh.
People don't realize that howyou are right now is actually
okay, and then everyone's moreworried about themselves than
they are about the way that youare.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's a spotlight effect.
I think they call it, I don'tknow.
They say so.
You think that the spotlight'son you but actually, in reality,
no one cares.
No, I do think that that.
I mean, that's one thing, youknow.
I've always, you know, tried tobe yeah.
Unfortunately, there's this,especially with social media and
everything you read on LinkedIneveryone would think that
you've got to be this, you know,go-getter, you've got to be
(38:24):
slick, you don't have any.
There's no flaws, right, andactually I think the flaws are
what kind of make us human andmost people kind of like so yeah
, Absolutely, and it's thestories that people tell that
make it a good interview or agood.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
You know, it's the same.
I remember trying to coach mydaughter on when she was going
for an interview and I said youneed to just think every
question you're going to beasked, think of a story that you
can tell, because that's goingto tell the people what you're
like, how you deal with things,everything else you know.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Yeah, just get that competence-based interview right
.
Give me an example of you know.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Okay, so let's fast forward to the conference, right
?
So this is where I wanted toget you on, because bearing my
productivity is one of mypassions, both business and
personal productivity and Ithink, like the conference, like
anyone who kind of wants toimprove their workplace or their
self, you know, I think goingto that conference is probably
the best two days you'll everspend, and I've always said that
(39:16):
to a lot of people and theycome back and they go.
I'm glad you told me about that.
Let's talk us through theconference.
You know what does the formatlook like?
You know any sneak peeks, anyexciting topics that you can
think of, or speakers lined upthat stand out Apart from myself
, obviously.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Yeah, so we pride ourselves on having wonderful
speakers like you.
Lee, thank you very much.
But yeah, that is definitelyone of the highlights is that
this is two days that you'regoing to see this group of
people that you would never getto otherwise.
So 35 different speakers, evenall the exhibitors and stuff we
get.
We have lots of people that say, wow, I'd never get to
(39:54):
understand what other productsand services are out there and
how to chit chat to people andhow to find out what's happening
and how I can make thingsbetter unless I attend it.
It's kind of like thatopportunity to get up front and
discuss all this stuff withpeople.
We've got a community booth, bythe way, at the conference,
which I know you'll be on andyou know talking to people,
(40:15):
because this is about communityand the digital workplace.
Community is something thatlives beyond the conference, so
the connections you make you canthen, you know, continue to
engage with.
So, as far as sessions, there'sthree different tracks.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
So just before we get into that.
So the session, so it's inSydney.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Sorry, it's in Sydney .
It's at the Sofitel SydneyWentworth Great venue.
We've been there a couple oftimes before 31st of July, 1st
of August and, yeah, two daysthat are really, really packed
full of stuff the July, the 31stevening we've got the awards
evening, which is kind of coolbecause it'll be a fun evening.
But yeah, during the conferencethere's three tracks that run in
(40:58):
parallel consecutive, and onesort of more thought leadership
and case studies.
So I think there's six or sevendifferent case studies and
we've done a lot of filters onthe website so you can actually
go in and see specifically whatthere is around that.
There's one that's M365 focusedand then there's a Power
(41:20):
Platform one.
So we haven't had PowerPlatform as a dedicated track
until just recently, but justgiven the amount of, like you
said, automation is such amassive thing and some of those
sessions cross over.
Obviously, and we do have afilter there on Copilot as well,
if you just want to see what'sthere on that.
But a good mix of some of it'sa little bit techie or more
techie, the deep dive for thetechie guys who want to get that
(41:42):
serious about it.
But there's always something onin the other tracks if you
don't want to go to those ones.
We were asked at last year'sevent to include some
introduction ones.
So I know your co-pilot one isgoing to be great and there's an
introduction to co-pilot studioand there's an intro to Fabric
and there's one to Purview andRecords Management.
So don't be overwhelmed by thefact that it's all going to be
(42:04):
for the senior people, becausewe know that there's so many
people that need to.
You know, we started doingthese events because there was
me and a couple of other guyswho are all Microsoft MVPs, most
valuable professionals.
We're all working withcustomers and the customers were
saying we want something that'sfor us, that's for the
customers, that gives us lots ofthese topics where we can see
(42:29):
what other people are doing andwe can come along and learn,
because Microsoft don't sort ofdo that kind of user conference.
That's why we did it, so it'sfor those customers of all
levels that want to come in.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
It's interesting.
You say that because I actuallythink that's one of the big
changes in probably the lastfive or six years.
When we first started talkingat these conferences and I agree
100% it was almost like you hadto have a certain level of
technical speed to evenunderstand what was being talked
about.
And we had people like myselfwho were relatively latecomers
but not anymore to the industry,but it took you a while to kind
(43:05):
of actually understand what wasbeing talked about, that once
you was there and you know,always used to say who's
servicing the people that don'thave that knowledge?
How do you get from zero tofive, you know, to just to
understand that and so.
But even like in like, as recentas like this week, you've got
some, you know, decent,high-powered executives I'm
talking to who just love talkingabout this stuff.
They love seeing it and theylove seeing, like you know,
workflows and they love seeinglists and which you know we've
(43:25):
been talking about for years.
But I think because now there'san expectation as an executive,
you kind of need to understandthis stuff.
You can't just say that's ITand it is a business tool rather
than a technology play.
I think that's probably themarket you're serving right.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
I think that's probably the market you're
serving right, I think that's oh, absolutely, we have more
business people than technicalpeople 100%, and we actually
have quite a lot in that seniormanagement bracket and the execs
, for that exact reason thatyou're saying.
It's about getting up to speedwith what's happening out there,
what other people are doing,and making sure that they can
make these informed decisions,not that they're just going off
what their IT department's toldthem.
(43:59):
They're actually seeing some ofthe stuff.
Yeah, highly valuable for that.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Yeah, and I always talk about the eye candy as well
.
You know, I think just seeingstuff goes back to that internal
thing.
Right, when you can seesomething, you go, wow, that's
exactly what we would need orhow we could use that.
I think that means a lot.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
That's why we go to events, right?
We want to get inspired.
We want to come away with ideas.
We want to come away with somany ideas.
We don't know how we're goingto run them all.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
That's definitely the idea.
So two days you've got the freetracks that you talked about
365.
And once again within the casestudies, as I say, there's lots
of good examples how ourbusiness have implemented it
Within the Microsoft 365, youknow, any kind of things that
are jumping out at you, kind ofcommon themes, apart from
Copilot, apart from CopilotActually there's some really
good ones on, or this is a casestudy as well but growing
(44:51):
cultural you know the culturalside of things.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
So how you actually develop that culture, how you
get people to embed and adoptthe tools Because I think that's
been quite a challenge is youknow, we've got this tool, now
what do we do with it?
And I was actually thinkingwhether I did something like
that myself, but I put myselfdown for something different.
But anyway, there is a bit ofthat, though, and then there is
(45:15):
a couple of sessions ongovernance, because that's the
other challenge that people arehaving.
So, whether it's Power Platformgovernance or M365, you know,
that governance thing has beenaround for a while as we know,
but it still has a high.
You know, it's still got a placeand it's still a problem.
Hey, there's one speaker I wantto call out because I don't
know if you've ever followed himand I've just had him join.
(45:37):
So he does.
Moca have you heard of MoCA,the Modern Workplace
Architecture CollaborationFramework, or something?
I've got that round the wrongway.
Anyway, he talks a lot aboutattention, using attention and
how people's attention get takenaway, and he came up with this
MoCA framework.
It was included in all theadoption stuff for Microsoft and
(45:58):
now he works for Microsoft.
His name's Rishi Nikolai and heactually is Australian Well,
not originally, by the sounds ofit.
I don't know exactly what hishistory is, but yeah, so I don't
know.
I've just read so much of hisstuff online and really liked
his Mocha framework and used itfrom an adoption point of view.
So I was quite excited when hegot hold of me and said, yes,
(46:21):
come along and speak.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Yeah, yeah.
The other thing I would alsosay is anyone that's listening
to this kind of thing goingalong is that I think, once
again, 10 years ago, there wasexpectation that you had to have
like big budgets and bigpockets to do some of the stuff
that you'd see, and that wasalways a frustration.
People would say, oh yeah, it'sgreat, lee, but that's going to
cost me, you know, 50k, 60k,70k, and so just interest, like
(46:43):
even some of the work I'm doingnow, as I mentioned to you, I'm
back on the tools at the momentand just enjoying it and
building some stuff, but some ofthese things I'm building, I'm
like I've just done four hoursit's got to, which probably
would have taken you easily Fourweeks, four weeks yeah, that's
the exciting thing, because Iguess they call well some of it
(47:04):
citizen developer stuff, themore people that can do it
themselves.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
But even just understanding, yeah, that
they've got all of these toolsand they're not using them.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Yeah, yeah, but I think it's more accessible.
I think that's what it is.
So these, you know what we callworkflow solutions or apps or
whatever they're just you canbuild them in a day, like less
than a day, and you know, and itmeans and it's yeah, it won't
be kind of, you know, perfect,but it'll do 90% of what you
need and you know better thanthe way you did it before.
So, yeah, I think that'sanother thing will be stuff that
(47:36):
you'd have because you'vealready got the tools.
It's in the toolkit.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
you just need to be able to configure it, you can
get someone to come along andnail it real quickly.
Yeah, because that's way, wayhigher value.
It sounds so cliche, but beingin the moment and enjoying that
very moment, without stressingabout the next five weeks, five
(48:00):
years, 50 years, whatever.
Enjoying that moment rightthere and then.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
So that's another great episode, done and dusted,
as always.
I'd love to hear from you ifyou know anyone that's got a
really good story to tell abouthow they are or not living a
productive life.
If you want to get in touchwith me, please do so by my
website, wwwleesteensco, that'swwwliestephensco.
You can email me, lee atleastephensco, or get in touch
(48:30):
on LinkedIn, which is where Ialso hang out In the meantime,
have a good week, thank you.
Welcome to the Time and Motion podcast with me, your
host, lee Stevens.
For over 25 years, I've workedwith businesses all over the
world to improve the technologyand the people within them.
In this podcast, I share someof my experiences and I chat to
guests who generously sharetheir stories of how to or, in
some cases, how not to live aproductive life.
I hope you enjoy the show.
(00:28):
Now I'm all about productivity.
If you're a business, there's agood chance you're likely using
Microsoft 365.
The question is, are you usingeverything that's in that box of
tricks that you pay for, andare you making your business
(00:50):
more productive by using thosetools?
In today's show, I catch up withDebbie Island, who is the queen
of productivity acrossAustralia and New Zealand and
also organizes the digitalworkplace conferences, which is
all about how you get the mostout of business productivity
tools like Microsoft 365.
She's organizing a conferencethat's on at the end of July
(01:11):
over in Australia, in Sydney,and I caught up with her to see
how that conference is going interms of organization and just
to hear about some of herthoughts and observations on
some of those modern tools thatwe have at our disposal Now.
This interview was done as aplan B.
We had a few technicalchallenges so we did it over a
recorded Teams call.
We've been able to enhance theaudio to somewhat okay standards
(01:33):
, so hopefully it doesn't enjoyyour show listening too much.
So on with the show.
Debbie Island.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Thank you, good to be talking to you again.
It's been a while.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
How's it going over in sunny New Zealand?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, it is sunny today, so I've got to be
thankful for that, I guess.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So, debbie, you and I have kind of known each other a
few years, so I think it'sworth mentioning that to the
people listening.
But for those who kind of don'tknow, you or you know picked up
this podcast and just doing adrive or doing their weekly jog
or daily jog Just tell us aboutyou.
What's your background and howdid you get to where you are now
Born and bred?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
in Rotorua, new Zealand, I have plenty.
I grew up there for the first17 odd years which is in a
semi-lifestyle block, I guess,semi-rural Grew home veggies and
all that kind of stuff.
Had very hardworking parents.
That taught me that ethic froma very young age, but also
taught me that you get what youwant when you work really hard.
(02:32):
And we're also self-employed,given we were just having that
conversation so I think thatsows the seed too, and yeah, has
done ever since.
Tried working for people for awhile, but have been actually
running the company I run nowDigital Workplace Results for
the last 17 years, would youbelieve?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Feels like a long time, but yeah, spent some time
traveling.
When I was younger lived inAmerica, lived in Australia,
came back, spent 12 years up inAuckland, did a whole lot of
project management stuff, workedfor a consulting company and
then decided to go out on my own.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
And so was there always an early sign that you
wanted to get involved intechnology and project
management, or was it like a lotof us?
You kind of fell into it.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Kind of fell into it really.
But I think I'd, come back fromoverseas, had some old mates
that I used to work with andthey're like, well, what can you
do?
And, back from overseas, hadsome old mates that I used to
work with and they're like, well, what can you do?
And I mean I don't know what heneed.
And so they needed someone todo database and administration
stuff.
So I decided, oh, I'll bettergo and teach myself access.
So I did, took a book in thosedays, down to the beach at Mount
(03:39):
Maunganui actually, and taughtmyself access.
And then decided, oh, I've gota bit of a lean for this type of
stuff.
I, I've got a bit of a lean forthis type of stuff.
I love it.
And actually one of theconsulting firms I worked for in
Auckland did work for Vodafoneand it was all doing business
intelligence stuff and datawarehousing way back in the day
and loved all that too.
So kind of went so far on thetechie side, but I probably
don't get that technical thesedays.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So you've been running the Digital Workplace
Conference, which has takendifferent guides in different
shapes and forms over the lastfew years.
So we will talk a lot aboutsome of the things that are
going to be talked about in thatconference.
But, once again, for anyonethat's listening, just talk us
through what that conference iswhen it is.
And, yeah, what would peoplelearn by going to that
conference?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Sure.
So yes, it has changed.
It was the SharePointconference back in the day and
we just held our 30th event.
Over the years I've done themin Australia, new Zealand,
singapore, hong Kong, but we'rein Australia for, I think, the
13th time in Sydney in 31st ofJuly, and largely Microsoft 365,
(04:39):
I would have to say so.
Anything if you've got anythingto do with Microsoft 365,
there'll be something for you atall different sorts of levels
and different sorts of topics,but also it's the digital
workplace, so it's theperipheral things.
On what you have to think about, you know, we've got some
amazing case studies and someamazing thought leadership type
(05:00):
sessions to help people getstarted.
If you're in an exec role, thenwhat you need to be thinking
about and planning for.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
And of course.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
AI and co-pilot and all of that stuff is going to be
huge this year.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Everyone's talking about AI, right?
So one of the things I did pickup was you were very quick to
spot trends and, I think, one ofthe things about even calling
it the digital workplace ratherthan just the SharePoint
conference but just talk methrough what you're thinking it
was, because that term isstarting to get a bit of
traction I'm seeing in both NewZealand and Australia.
So, yeah, why did you kind ofmove to digital workplace?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
I think it's wider.
I don't think it's just aboutactually my whole mantra or my
whole life.
Work in the IT industry hasbeen about the people side of
things, and technology really isjust an enabler, and the
digital workplace takes itlarger and wider than just being
about Microsoft tools or anytools for that matter.
(06:01):
The digital workplace issomething we all have to cope
with and deal with and it'ssupposed to help make us more
productive and all of that goodstuff, but it is about the
people at the end of the day andhow we react and act and what
we do to make our lives simpler.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
So another phrase that gets banded around, which I
feel a bit dirty by saying it,but digital transformation.
So I think we all kind of getwhat people are trying to do,
but any kind of insights howthat's kind of evolved in the
past 10 years or even since the30 events that you've been doing
.
What kind of key trends andthings should businesses be
(06:40):
aware of, do you think?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
To be honest, I think it comes back to that people
thing again.
I think Microsoft have finallycottoned on to the fact that you
know it's not about digitaltransformation and how many
licenses we can roll out andwhat kind of tools we can get
people using, but it's about thebehavior changes that you're
after.
So it's not digitaltransformation.
It's actually transformation ofthe people and how they become
(07:03):
more productive.
You know, like you look atthings today, I actually think
the key things are going to behow do we keep the attention
focus on, you know, people thathave got so much stuff happening
in their lives and so many appson their phone and so many
notifications and so forth?
Well, that's all peoplebehavioural.
It's not digital, although it'sdigital that's making it happen
(07:24):
.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot of noise right,
and so I think the one thingthat's probably always I think
we've all been guilty in thepast is that there's now so many
tools that are available thatpeople go, well, which one do I
pick?
You know, you tell me, and youyeah, well, it depends, it
depends and unfortunately, youknow a lot of people still do
that classic what do you wantSharePoint to do?
(07:45):
What do you want Teams to do?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah.
When to use what when?
To use what has to be ourbiggest thing.
We're actually doing tons oflittle infographics at the
moment on when to use what.
I've tried I don't know howmany times to reframe things,
and it's about who you'reworking with Is it me, we us
them, or is it the activitiesyou're doing?
You know I'm doing this, I'mdoing that, I'm doing the other
thing, and then which productslots into which you know which
(08:09):
part of it.
So it's yeah, it's quite acomplex matrix there.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
It amazes me, though, how people think they're going
to get a good result from sayingwhat do you want?
This technology?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
It's this hammer to do yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
What problem do you need to solve?
So yeah, it sounds like I thinkwe get like consultants.
We kind of get a lot of flack.
You'd be surprised.
Well, you probably won't besurprised, but how many
businesses, how many people youspeak to and they go well, just
install SharePoint.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
You know, well, I could, but you know it's not
going to do much.
Actually, yes, you've got themin your toolkit.
So it's not about the fact thatI've got M365, I've got planner
gosh, we should run out andstart using it.
And because we do a ton oftraining and they're like I was
with a client the other day andthey were like well, if you just
offer this training, that's allvery well.
Your early adopters are goingto say, oh, I want to learn
(08:57):
about OneNote, yeah, I'm goingto attend that training.
But then you've got the otherpeople that are going to say,
well, I'm far too busy, I don'twant to take the time out of my
day.
What am I going to use it for?
So, unless they've got somepain points that they've
identified and some real reasonsto actually start using those
tools, why should they expectpeople to?
You know, take them up?
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, 100%.
So on the note of productivitytools, obviously you've got a
long stretched.
You know lots of experience inMicrosoft 365 and obviously its
predecessors.
What do you think some of thetop tools and features are that
are kind of not really utilizedas well as they should be in
that stack at the moment?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Gosh.
So we have a rule internallythat we have to use the stuff.
Obviously, eat your own dogfood type stuff Eat your own
champagne.
Yeah, yeah, obviously eat yourown dog food type stuff, but um,
champagne, yeah, yeah, uh, wehave been playing with loop a
bit lately I was kind ofconfused to start with as to
where it's that and because I'ma massive big one note user and
(09:56):
I've used that extensively overthe years and still do, actually
.
But loop seems to be findingits place because it surfaces
all over the place.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
So if someone listened in explain what Loop is
and what it does, Gosh, I'm notthe right person.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Go and ask Daryl Webster, let me just give you an
example right.
So now, when you create ameeting in Teams, there's a bit
where you can put meeting notesdown the bottom and it creates a
Loop component.
And Loop has all thesecomponents.
One can be a task list or avoting poll, or a note or a I
don't know all those bits but itactually creates these little
templates.
(10:30):
Or you can create your ownloops and so you could be in a
chat and you could throw a loopin there.
You can copy it to one to theother, but it's a place where
people can all jump in and addto that same collaborative
workspace.
Was that a good job?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
What would be a business example of why you'd
use Loop?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Well, yeah, so we've got a reoccurring and I have
these with lots of my clients,so I've set them up with all of
them a reoccurring weeklyproject meeting In there.
People can throw the agenda inthere.
You know you can also insertplanner.
Now the planner that relates tothat one is inserted on the
page.
Any notes you've got.
You can record sentiment forhow the team's doing and a bit
(11:10):
of fun stuff in there.
But that works incredibly wellfor that.
There's another one where wejust added a loop component into
a post in Teams and it wasabout what charity should we be
supporting or what volunteerwork should we be doing, and so
it started off in a leadershipteam and then we copied the loop
component to another teambecause it was relevant.
So you can copy them all overthe place, but you've still got
(11:31):
that track of people addinginformation to it.
It was quite cool.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Nice, okay, so let's go on to the conference.
So, as I say, that's been astable, did I read that right?
2008?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
or 2009 was the first one in Wellington, I think.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Okay, so Copilot told me it was 2008,.
So I trust Copilot Like from anoutsider's perspective, one of
the things I always admire whenI see these conferences is how
cool and calm you always lookmaybe from the outside, maybe
not inside, when theseconferences are being run.
You know, for someone who goesto those conferences, or any
conference, how do you kind ofmeasure the impact and success
(12:06):
of these conferences on boththeir personal and their
business productivity?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I talk to lots of people at the conferences.
So I think you know, like, nomatter how many surveys you try
and get people to do, it'sactually the personal feedback.
And people do contact me andtell me how they're.
You know what they're thinkingand what they're doing.
Contact me and tell me howthey're.
You know what they're thinkingand what they're doing.
And the other thing is that Ihave a really strong usually a
good connection with all thespeakers and a good
(12:32):
understanding and expectationthat they are going to deliver
something that's going to havethe people walking away with
some really tangible takeaways,some applicable stuff.
And I read a great book gosh,the Art of Mind, me Later.
My goodness, what's that book?
And I read a great book gosh,the Art of mind, me later my
goodness, what's that book?
It's a book about.
It's going to annoy me.
Cut that bit out and I'llremind you what it is later.
But it's all about engagement,right?
(12:55):
So I remember reading a blogpost about how the worst thing
about conferences is going tothem and being talked at, and so
I've been trying to drum itinto all our speakers that we
need to make our sessionsengaging, and that it's about
the people's experience, notjust about the speakers standing
up there and lecturing.
It's about them being able totalk to the people in the room
(13:16):
and connect with each other andbe able to figure stuff out on
their own.
Otherwise, you don't learnsomething.
Yeah, trying to make it.
Every year, I try and dosomething different, I think.
Some things work, some thingsfail.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
What's been the successful ones, you think, over
the last few years?
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Definitely that engagement, one Even as simple
as trying to make the room sothat they've got tables in them
rather than theatre style.
You know, really simple stuff.
And then having some breakoutareas We've just started the
Digital Workplace Awards.
So, having some breakout areas,We've just started the Digital
Workplace Awards, so we ran themin Melbourne last year and in
New Zealand the New Zealand ones, actually the Melbourne ones as
well.
They were cool.
It was so awesome to see peopleactually putting themselves
(13:57):
forward for an award and beingso super proud of the efforts or
of the efforts of their teamand then being recognised for
that stuff.
You know like too often we getso caught up in the weeds and
doing all this work that weforget that we've done some
pretty cool stuff you know, whatpeople have produced and the
efforts that people put in.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
And I think it's one of the things I've always found
in the space we work in, becausemost of the stuff we do is
internal right.
So if it was a website, it'd beout there for the whole world
to see and, yeah, it's veryvisible.
But almost everything we do isinternal right and not visible
to the public world is how do wekind of share those stories?
I think that and that for me,is like one of the big things
about the conference, because ofthe nature of this stuff.
(14:38):
You know, it could be like aworkflow you've built or a form
or something you could be at aconference.
You start talking to someone ohhow did you do that?
And you know, you just this,this thing, and blah, blah, and
you're for your way and I think,because it is say, it's
internally facing, I think goingto a conference like this, um,
you know, I think would, for meit's kind of the sharing those
war stories, right, um, and thenI think I agree, 100 around the
(15:00):
table.
So I'm I love the psychology ofthese companies.
I think I even sent you, Ithink I've read a report once
and sent you that report.
But I think it's so true and Ithink as humans, we all want to
connect right and even if you'reintroverted, it might take a
lot out of you, but I thinkyou're going to get a whole lot
more out of that session whenthere's exercises and there's
activities and Sato, who's myold colleague, is very good at
(15:20):
that right, and so, yeah, someof her sessions you could see
people just smiling the minutethey walked out the door.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, there's a book called the Art of Gathering.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
It's awesome.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Take a look at it.
It's about actually it remindsme if we get onto that topic
later but it reminds me aboutconnection in general as being
one of the fundamental thingsthat we all need to look at and
do a checklist on every day onhow we're doing with it.
But Gathering that book actuallyinspired me to do a Christmas
party, something different,rather than just having a party
(15:50):
where you have drinks and foodand everyone comes along.
I actually did something whereeveryone had to bring two photos
.
No, they had to send me twophotos first and then I printed
them out, put them all up on abig you know one of the windows
and then everyone went aroundthe room and talked about those
photos and they were just twophotos about things they did
during the year and there weregraduations, new babies, trips
overseas, you know, like allthese amazing things and it
(16:13):
connected people.
And then I had another littleboard that was a gratitude board
and everyone went and put apetal on and made flowers out of
things that were grateful, youknow whatever, but anyway it was
connection and it was the artof gathering.
So it's not just conferences,but it inspired me in that way.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Anyway, yeah.
So we mentioned some of thosetools.
What are some of your kind ofpersonal favourites apart from
Loop?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
What else?
Well, yes, I definitely useOneNote all the time.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
That's good to take in and section yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
OneNote for all of that and for processes and for
repeatable things that we do.
All of that have been usingCopilot, of course, Starting to
get a feel for how that helps,and used it to draft a document
and use it for replying toemails and some things that it's
(17:02):
definitely.
I can see the advantage.
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Apparently, it's a really good session about
co-pilot.
For dummies, really goodspeaker Names.
Looking forward to that one.
Yeah, the point I think aboutthe coach that operates these
days is they get it out thereand then improve, and so it's
the classic.
You know what's the MVP?
Yes, it will have bugs, yes, itwill have some things that
aren't that great, but at leastit's there.
And yeah, I think it's one ofthose things now, like where you
(17:27):
just you know, like even today,preparing for this interview, I
was like, okay, let's do somequestions for debbie.
You know, I could go and sitdown and use my expansive brain
power to do that, or I couldbasically give it a really good
prompt and that's what, exactlywhat I did.
So I did she's went in when,hey, co-ilot, you're the host of
Time of Motion podcast.
You're interviewing DebbieIreland.
The focus is on personalproductivity, business
(17:48):
productivity, about confidence.
Please suggest some questionsyou think listeners might want
to hear.
It went da-da-da-da-da and soyeah.
So if these questions soundcontrived, I'm blaming Copilot,
but what did you do?
Go on.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I was going to say great quote while I remember it.
You know kind of changing topica little bit here, but you know
how everyone's like oh, I'mscared, ai is going to take over
my job, and it was something tothe effect of AI is not going
to take over your job.
People who use AI will takeover your job 100%.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, yeah and so, but yeah, I mean, I think, like,
as you start work most of usare information workers, right,
but it's just there now and Ithink you, you don't.
It's amazing.
Like you know, even probablysix months ago, you're like okay
, I'm going to have to carve outsome time, white sheet of paper
, blank sheet of paper or blankscreen.
(18:39):
What do I do?
And yeah, you need to tweak,change and improve, but it's
done.
85% of it, and I think that'sprobably one of the things I
will talk about in that sessionis that it becomes.
It's an assistant, it's notlike a tool, it's like you
having someone sitting therenext to you who's an expert on
things, right, and you startthinking about that.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
And, like you said, you have to be able to write the
right prompts.
I think that was my firstexperience was oh yeah, do this
for me, and it gave me back acrap result and it's like, well,
I didn't really give it verygood information in order for it
to surface back to me what Ineeded.
That part of it you need tolearn how to do too.
So what do they call them?
Prompt engineers?
Speaker 1 (19:17):
or something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, it's like early search,right.
So I remember when someone saidto me, like, if you search
BlackBerry, like well, back in2009,.
Do you mean the fruit or do youmean the phone, or you know
what?
Well, I watched it.
Oh, I watched it.
Have you seen the movie?
I watched the BlackBerry movieon Prime and it talks about the
(19:37):
history of it and how they gotinto trouble and you know, for
me it was really like insightfulinto how businesses can get
caught out very quickly becauseyou know they think they're the
best thing and then somethingcomes along like an iPhone and
then they're stuffed right.
But, yeah, there might be someyounger listeners going.
What are they talking about?
So, yeah, go and do a co-pilotsearch on that, the phone, and
(19:59):
it'll tell you.
Okay, so we talked about theconference, which we'll talk
about a little bit in a moment,but one thing I just want to ask
you is and I've asked lots ofour guests is the pandemic.
When you're running conferences, I'm guessing a pandemic's a
pretty big deal, right, and itkind of cripples your business.
So what were some of thelessons you learned there?
(20:21):
And I suppose, how did you getthrough that and what was going
through your mind when you'rehaving to get through those
tough times.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, so definitely.
Fortunately for me, there'salways a silver lining.
So we do conferences but wealso do consulting, training,
change management, all that sortof side of it.
So that side I just had to jumpstraight into that.
I did have to let staff go.
We were in the middle of aboutto put on well, we were about to
put on two conferences.
I had to do massive refunds.
(20:49):
I lost lots and lots of money.
So it devastated us mostdefinitely.
And it's actually beeninteresting because it's taken
quite a bit to come back intothe conference world.
It's like starting over again.
Everyone's shifted jobs, allour databases are different.
You know, people are doingdifferent things.
Yeah, a big challenge there.
But then it's also about whatelse you do with that time and
(21:10):
energy and how you're going torefocus.
I actually wrote a book duringthat time called Work, life,
balance, my Ass, which I think'sfunny because, yeah, that was
right over COVID and I focusedon different stuff.
So I looked at the other partof my business and actually
that's thriving now from adifferent angle.
(21:33):
Yeah, I don't know, and it'salways that resilience factor.
You know, if you know thatyou're going to be hit by hard
times, you somehow find a wayand you somehow get through it
and if you've got thatconfidence and that kind of.
I think that's a problem withsome of the young people these
days.
They haven't had any knocks, sothey haven't had to deal with
adversity, so they don't knowhow to and they're just too.
(21:53):
That sounds terrible.
I sound old now, but it's true.
You know, you kind of knowyou're going to get through it
and something's going to happenand you'll be all right, so yeah
.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah, and I think, like I've mentioned this before,
for the company I obviously hadat the time, we actually got
slammed at the reverse effectbecause at first we were all
worried, but if you think aboutwhat we was actually selling, it
was the whole Teams, teams,going online, yeah, yeah and
I've got to ask you, because I'msure you're the same but how
(22:21):
long have you worked online andworked remotely and all of these
things that people were findingfor the first time?
Speaker 2 (22:27):
I'd been doing it for 10 or 15 years anyway.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, agreed, yeah, and so it's quite interesting
because it's like a few, uh,fairly large businesses, like
you know, that teams thingyou've been talking about, where
you can work remotely and youdon't have that servers.
Yeah, can we have that nowplease?
And I was like, yeah, so, um, Ithink, yeah, we did see some,
uh, you know, a bit of a.
We saw actually actually abounce on on a good bounce on
that, um, and it's interestingactually seeing a lot of
(22:52):
businesses where, um, I don'tknow if you've come across this
there's actually been some falsebounces.
So what's happened is, and Ithink, a lot of fast food places
and the like, the delivery, youknow, is it deliverer and no
sort of and door dash, and then,if you know what, those food
uber eats type thing.
So, apparently what happened incovid?
Obviously there was thisartificial kind of need for it
and everyone's like we're gonnachuck a load of money in what
(23:13):
we're going to do and obviously,once people go back to a
relatively or even a hybridstate, there's less need for
those things.
So it was kind of give anartificial view on how, yeah,
that's the term I was lookingfor.
So, yeah, interesting.
But yeah, I did, you know, Ithink I've reached out to you a
couple of times during thatpoint like that where you just
(23:34):
you can't run conferences, whenpeople can't move around right
or can't get out.
You know what the interesting?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
thing though.
So one thing, because we dolots of training, we took all
our training online, which wewere doing already.
Some of it but that, you know,massively went to virtual
classes, and now we do 90%virtual classes and some in
person, but not so much inperson.
Right, yeah, on-site training.
But I'm seeing a big move forand I still still 100% believe
(24:00):
in that need for the in-personstuff.
You know, like when I firstwork with a client, if I'm doing
workshops, I have to be onperson, person with them on site
, just because I want to get toknow them a bit.
But with the conferences,everyone was saying so are you
going to go online, are yougoing to do it virtually?
And even now they're saying areyou going to do a hybrid?
And I'm like, no, let's go backto that art of gathering and
the connection thing.
(24:20):
This is about being in person,and that's one thing the
conferences give to people.
They get to actually connectwith people, and you don't, no
matter how much we've tried todo that with you know, all this
online stuff, it doesn't to me.
I don't think.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, I think you're less invested as well because I
mean it's interesting thatMicrosoft have kind of really
stuck to that and I canunderstand that.
Right, it probably is a lotcheaper running the scale of
those events.
But I think you're lessinvested because you're like, oh
, if something pops up that'sreally important.
I probably won't go to that now.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Well, actually, but you say that about Microsoft,
and they are now turning aroundand investing, especially in the
States and the UK, in thethird-party events and the
in-person ones.
And they're getting massiveagain because they took all
their stuff.
They spent millions of dollars.
I don't know that we're allowedto be talking about this.
Are we Millions of dollars ondoing their green rooms and all
(25:11):
their production and everythingto do these online events?
And the stats were prettyshocking because people would
register and then the ones thatwould actually watch it.
I don't know how manyconferences I've registered for
and I'm like I'm definitelygoing to go and watch it.
If I don't watch it when it'son, I very seldom go back and
watch it.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, but it goes back to what we were saying
earlier.
Right, but you're getting justas much out of those
conversations in morning, teaand lunch, right out of those
conversations in morning, teaand lunch.
Totally, I reckon that'sprobably just of equal value, as
probably some of the sessionsas well, you know, and I think
so, and which you won't get ononline events.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
No, and meeting and then saying, hey, do you want to
catch up for a coffee?
Speaker 1 (25:47):
you know in two months' time, yeah, yeah, I had
a funny story, so I think I wastalking at the Australian one a
few years ago and so my, my, uhtactic in my sessions was
basically, you know, from the UK, take the mickey out the
Aussies in the New Zealandconference and in the New
Zealand conference, take themickey out the Aussies.
And I can remember, um, doingthe Australian one, I was like,
(26:08):
oh, I'm gonna take the mickeyout that Kiwis, yeah, just ill
ingest.
And uh, had these like threepeople come marching to the
stage, going you can't say thatwe're Kiwis, even though you're
in Australia.
I was like calm down, butactually what happened was it
was all said and just, butthat's probably one of the
longest business relationshipsI've had, I think, just from
that kind of engagement and thatyou know, and you probably once
(26:29):
again, you wouldn't have gotthree people you know going to
give you a stick from something,something you've said, you know
in a nice way, absolutely anonline, yeah, an online one.
Okay, you mentioned training andlearning.
I know that you had shared apoint and you had your digital
workplace results, which you'veseen since rebranded to, but
very much training focused andgiving employees.
(26:50):
So there's an opportunity toget the most out of these
digital tools and gettingcomfortable with, uh, the tools
that are there.
But what are some of thestrategies that you would
recommend for, I suppose, forthose mid-sized to upper-sized
businesses when it comes totraining that Microsoft 365
stack?
Is there kind of any kind of,you know, key things that you
always kind of take intoconsideration?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
We're doing a lot of work at the moment, actually,
with a few rather largeorganizations where we're doing
not just your, you know like alot of companies will do the
change champions, the championsnetwork, when they're first
implementing 365, for example.
But this, the work we're doing,is kind of going back and it's
more reinforcement.
So it's going back and doingchampions programmes and
(27:32):
training programmes alongsidethem, very like over the period
of six months to a year, butkeeping that momentum going and
actually looking at how to embedsome of the tools.
So, rather than just the onceand done training that comes
along with a project, it's theafter work that I'm finding is
(27:53):
the most important and it's notjust a how-to training.
So it's a mix of how-to, it's amix of awareness building,
which is more like your how arewe going to sell this training
and how are people going to knowthat they want to come to it?
So like scenarios, day in thelife type stuff.
And then the other one isactually building it around
giving people the support to dolittle mini projects themselves,
(28:14):
especially in a largerorganisation.
Yeah, we're doing tonnes aroundthat at the moment and I'm
loving it because it's all thatchange and a little bit of
strategy and everything rolledinto one.
But the key thing is it's allabout productivity.
So it's all about how peoplecan actually get more from what
they've got and make lifesimpler.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Why do you think New Zealand and Australia have still
got this huge challenge aroundproductivity though?
Because you read the papers andI think this has been going on
for 10 years now 11 years nearlythat I've been this side of the
planet.
You know Australia and NewZealand really suffer from
productivity and output.
So any kind of views orobservations on that?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
I don't know actually that's a really good question
and I don't know that we suffer.
I don't know where those soyeah.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
So New Zealand, for example, and Australia are
probably two of the lowestperforming countries in the OECD
for productivity, so the returnon hours worked basically, yeah
, you compare that.
I think there's even places,like you know, some European
countries that you've neverheard of that are top of the
list, but yeah, new Zealandespecially.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
I'd be really interested, because I've never
really looked at that, but I'dbe really interested to see what
they're measuring against.
You know, I could say, gosh, isit just because we have a
better work-life balance and wedecide we want to go and do some
other stuff and not focus onwork?
Speaker 1 (29:30):
I think it's return on our work.
So basically the way theymeasure it is that you know if
you're on average, if you weighit's like GDP, right, you have
to take a lot of calculations.
But what they do is they say,well, the return on human hours
worked is X, whereas in the UKand US it's Y.
So US obviously is, is, is isobviously yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I think we should take this part out of the
interview by the way, becauseI'm so unknowledgeable about it,
but I would also, and we cantake this out as well.
I'd also have to question USpeople being more productive,
because every single person I'vetalked to seriously every
single person I've talked towould much rather hire a Kiwi or
an English person, my dadincluded, who lives over there
or an Australian than they wouldan American.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, I think it's more the fact we don't like, and
New Zealand it's that bad.
They even employed aproductivity commissioner.
Yeah, it didn't last very long.
It's basically because the longand short of it is I mean, I'll
take it out the long and shortof it is that we don't invest in
technology as much as othernations.
So it's, you know, we employSharon and Tracy and Colin
(30:34):
because we can see them when ourbusiness would go and build a
solution or technical solutionthat automates, that we don't
need them.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
So there's a lot of that.
That goes on.
The only other thing I'd sayabout that although I know we're
going to take this bit outwould be the Kiwi ingenuity.
We think we know better.
We know we just want to stickand plaster it rather than build
a solution.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Yeah, All right, the future of work.
We talk about what the youngergenerations are coming through,
how they're going to work andwhat a future digital workplace
would look like.
So how do you think businessesshould prepare to stay ahead of
the curve?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Well, I would have to say, obviously it's going to be
about awareness, education andtraining because I don't think
we invest enough in that andgetting people up to speed with
the best ways that they canpossibly work to be the most
productive.
And then, secondly, I'd have tosay that it would have to be
about the people, and I reckonwith the younger generation.
I'm not sure if you're findingthe same things, but they demand
(31:32):
more personal time, well-being,more this, more that than we
did.
We just got stuck in and workedaround the clock and all these
crazy things.
So there's a lot more to beconsidered, I think, than what
we would have been used to,Would you agree?
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Yeah, I agree, and I'm really torn on this because
you know you can absolutely seehow people burn out, because you
know it's all work, work, workand they don't have the outlets,
I suppose.
But we had different ways todeal with it, I guess.
But at the same time, you knowthe fact that they're looking
after their mental health moreand you know they're looking
(32:11):
after themselves more than maybewe did, you know, 20 years ago,
is a good thing.
But at the same time, some ofthat work ethic, and I suppose
the work ethos that we wouldhave is probably not there.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I think that is something about future-proofing,
or planning for the future isactually helping people to
develop those soft skills.
So the well-being, so thetaking time out, the avoiding
the burn out and the overwhelmand all these things that
technology is dumping on us,that are encouraging that or
(32:46):
enhancing that.
So I think that's how peopleprepare.
They don't just think, well,we're going to throw all these
tools at people.
It's also providing the softskills and we never got that
growing up, but I do believethat it's essential.
It's only because I have apersonal interest in so much
self-development stuff that Ilove it all, but you know it
needs to be brought into theworkplace.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
I think it's going to go full circle, though right.
So I read last week that dumbphones are the fastest growing
category of phones, phones thatare just purely text and calls.
So that's what's happening, isthe younger generation is going.
Oh, do you know what?
It's just stressful, and allthis noise and that phone there
just keep beeping at me all day.
So yeah, the old Nokia ones,you know, the little brick ones,
the Mars bar phones.
(33:26):
So apparently they're in thefastest growing category of
phone because you know, Wow.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
That's like I always used to say I loved a Kindle
because all a Kindle wasdesigned for was to read a book.
It gave you the best experienceand I could sit there on the
beach and read my book.
I don't need an iPad with allthe other bells and whistles and
everything to read a book.
So yeah, horses for courses, Iguess.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yeah, and I think I also think it's going to go full
circle in terms of that workethos and it's already happening
.
So I've mentioned this beforein my kind of later stages.
In the company that I sold, um,there was a young chap that
came in and he was, he hadn'tbeen to uni, got, you know, a
year's worth of work under hisbelt and he just came in and
(34:08):
said, um, I can remember hisinterview.
I said so why should we hireyou?
You know, tell us why he went.
Because I'm going to worksmarter, harder and faster than
the guys and girls are five orsix years older than me, because
they're lazy and so you can seeit like and so little
interesting.
So, you know, I think that the,the generations coming through
are probably going to see thatlack of work ethic and you know,
(34:30):
as humans, we all, we all getthere.
You know, nothing reallychanges that much.
It's all cyclical, yeah, buti'd'd be interested to see those
.
I can't remember what thatgeneration's called it's not a.
Y or something.
Yeah, anyway.
But I also think, in terms oftools, though I think that
automation will just be expectednow, like AI, we've mentioned,
and Copilot, which will betalked about at the conference,
(34:53):
like, for example, the work I'mdoing at the moment.
We've talked about notforgetting the foundational
stuff here, which is start usingMicrosoft 365.
Then let's talk aboutcollaboration as that second
wave.
You know that, startcommunicating better and then,
once you've done those two, youcan then do automation, because
you've actually got the buildingblocks in place to do those
workflows, those forms, andautomate employee onboarding,
(35:13):
automate contractor onboarding,all those kind of things that
we've done time and time again.
But it's so much easier to donow with the tools at our
disposal.
So, yeah, I think there's a lotof automation left to do.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
A hundred percent, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Okay, so let's talk about some of the leadership.
I guess you, as a leaderyourself, obviously you've had
to change, you know, evolve alittle bit, but you're obviously
speaking and liaising withdifferent leaders out there in
the workforce.
So what advice would you giveto some of those business
leaders that are looking tocreate like a culture of
(35:48):
innovation and collaboration andcontinuous learning with all
these tools?
You know?
Is there some kind of keythemes that you can or tips you
can give them?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I actually listened to a lady the other day.
I went to a business woman'snetwork thing and one of the
words she used was authenticity.
And she was apparently, out ofall the people that got up and
speak, the one that doesn't dopublic speaking and everything
else and seriously won theaudience and did the best job.
(36:20):
And I thought what did she dodifferently?
And it was being authentic andit just shone through.
Everyone else was trying toohard to be something.
They weren't, and I thinkthat's going to become more and
more critical as we go.
Like you said, with theco-pilot thing, it's only an aid
, it's not you know, and listento the tone that it brings
(36:42):
through.
And then it says, oh, do youwant to change your tone and do
you want to be more casual andeverything?
You still have to be you.
And that still is going to showthrough.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
When you send me an email, if it's, you know,
completely generated by AI, thenI'm going to know yeah, it's
funny you say that because I'vegot a um, I won't name him, but
I got an email for someone, um,uh, who I used to work with, uh,
and and it was, I think it wasjust like a reference request.
He was, I'm saying, really nice,it's pretty straightforward,
like you're happy to help, mate,you know no problem.
(37:11):
But I went back to him and saiduse copilot to either email,
didn't you?
And how do you know?
Because there was no spellingmistakes and he was being nice
to me and he was like yeah, hesaid I'm, you know, as you know,
I struggle with dyslexic andstuff like that, so I use it now
to kind of draft those.
And he said does me 8%?
I said yeah, but it was, youknow, I could tell it wasn't you
and so people want.
(37:43):
But unfortunately there's this,there's this um perception that
people think you have to be acertain type of person and you
have to tick the boxes and Ithink we've kind of like we've
it takes age to actually getthrough that though doesn't it,
you would have to say I meangood grief.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
If I look back to how I was, it's like gosh.
People don't realize that howyou are right now is actually
okay, and then everyone's moreworried about themselves than
they are about the way that youare.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's a spotlight effect.
I think they call it, I don'tknow.
They say so.
You think that the spotlight'son you but actually, in reality,
no one cares.
No, I do think that that.
I mean, that's one thing, youknow.
I've always, you know, tried tobe yeah.
Unfortunately, there's this,especially with social media and
everything you read on LinkedIneveryone would think that
you've got to be this, you know,go-getter, you've got to be
(38:24):
slick, you don't have any.
There's no flaws, right, andactually I think the flaws are
what kind of make us human andmost people kind of like so yeah
, Absolutely, and it's thestories that people tell that
make it a good interview or agood.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
You know, it's the same.
I remember trying to coach mydaughter on when she was going
for an interview and I said youneed to just think every
question you're going to beasked, think of a story that you
can tell, because that's goingto tell the people what you're
like, how you deal with things,everything else you know.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Yeah, just get that competence-based interview right
.
Give me an example of you know.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Okay, so let's fast forward to the conference, right
?
So this is where I wanted toget you on, because bearing my
productivity is one of mypassions, both business and
personal productivity and Ithink, like the conference, like
anyone who kind of wants toimprove their workplace or their
self, you know, I think goingto that conference is probably
the best two days you'll everspend, and I've always said that
(39:16):
to a lot of people and theycome back and they go.
I'm glad you told me about that.
Let's talk us through theconference.
You know what does the formatlook like?
You know any sneak peeks, anyexciting topics that you can
think of, or speakers lined upthat stand out Apart from myself
, obviously.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Yeah, so we pride ourselves on having wonderful
speakers like you.
Lee, thank you very much.
But yeah, that is definitelyone of the highlights is that
this is two days that you'regoing to see this group of
people that you would never getto otherwise.
So 35 different speakers, evenall the exhibitors and stuff we
get.
We have lots of people that say, wow, I'd never get to
(39:54):
understand what other productsand services are out there and
how to chit chat to people andhow to find out what's happening
and how I can make thingsbetter unless I attend it.
It's kind of like thatopportunity to get up front and
discuss all this stuff withpeople.
We've got a community booth, bythe way, at the conference,
which I know you'll be on andyou know talking to people,
(40:15):
because this is about communityand the digital workplace.
Community is something thatlives beyond the conference, so
the connections you make you canthen, you know, continue to
engage with.
So, as far as sessions, there'sthree different tracks.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
So just before we get into that.
So the session, so it's inSydney.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Sorry, it's in Sydney .
It's at the Sofitel SydneyWentworth Great venue.
We've been there a couple oftimes before 31st of July, 1st
of August and, yeah, two daysthat are really, really packed
full of stuff the July, the 31stevening we've got the awards
evening, which is kind of coolbecause it'll be a fun evening.
But yeah, during the conferencethere's three tracks that run in
(40:58):
parallel consecutive, and onesort of more thought leadership
and case studies.
So I think there's six or sevendifferent case studies and
we've done a lot of filters onthe website so you can actually
go in and see specifically whatthere is around that.
There's one that's M365 focusedand then there's a Power
(41:20):
Platform one.
So we haven't had PowerPlatform as a dedicated track
until just recently, but justgiven the amount of, like you
said, automation is such amassive thing and some of those
sessions cross over.
Obviously, and we do have afilter there on Copilot as well,
if you just want to see what'sthere on that.
But a good mix of some of it'sa little bit techie or more
techie, the deep dive for thetechie guys who want to get that
(41:42):
serious about it.
But there's always something onin the other tracks if you
don't want to go to those ones.
We were asked at last year'sevent to include some
introduction ones.
So I know your co-pilot one isgoing to be great and there's an
introduction to co-pilot studioand there's an intro to Fabric
and there's one to Purview andRecords Management.
So don't be overwhelmed by thefact that it's all going to be
(42:04):
for the senior people, becausewe know that there's so many
people that need to.
You know, we started doingthese events because there was
me and a couple of other guyswho are all Microsoft MVPs, most
valuable professionals.
We're all working withcustomers and the customers were
saying we want something that'sfor us, that's for the
customers, that gives us lots ofthese topics where we can see
(42:29):
what other people are doing andwe can come along and learn,
because Microsoft don't sort ofdo that kind of user conference.
That's why we did it, so it'sfor those customers of all
levels that want to come in.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
It's interesting.
You say that because I actuallythink that's one of the big
changes in probably the lastfive or six years.
When we first started talkingat these conferences and I agree
100% it was almost like you hadto have a certain level of
technical speed to evenunderstand what was being talked
about.
And we had people like myselfwho were relatively latecomers
but not anymore to the industry,but it took you a while to kind
(43:05):
of actually understand what wasbeing talked about, that once
you was there and you know,always used to say who's
servicing the people that don'thave that knowledge?
How do you get from zero tofive, you know, to just to
understand that and so.
But even like in like, as recentas like this week, you've got
some, you know, decent,high-powered executives I'm
talking to who just love talkingabout this stuff.
They love seeing it and theylove seeing, like you know,
workflows and they love seeinglists and which you know we've
(43:25):
been talking about for years.
But I think because now there'san expectation as an executive,
you kind of need to understandthis stuff.
You can't just say that's ITand it is a business tool rather
than a technology play.
I think that's probably themarket you're serving right.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
I think that's probably the market you're
serving right, I think that's oh, absolutely, we have more
business people than technicalpeople 100%, and we actually
have quite a lot in that seniormanagement bracket and the execs
, for that exact reason thatyou're saying.
It's about getting up to speedwith what's happening out there,
what other people are doing,and making sure that they can
make these informed decisions,not that they're just going off
what their IT department's toldthem.
(43:59):
They're actually seeing some ofthe stuff.
Yeah, highly valuable for that.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Yeah, and I always talk about the eye candy as well
.
You know, I think just seeingstuff goes back to that internal
thing.
Right, when you can seesomething, you go, wow, that's
exactly what we would need orhow we could use that.
I think that means a lot.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
That's why we go to events, right?
We want to get inspired.
We want to come away with ideas.
We want to come away with somany ideas.
We don't know how we're goingto run them all.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
That's definitely the idea.
So two days you've got the freetracks that you talked about
365.
And once again within the casestudies, as I say, there's lots
of good examples how ourbusiness have implemented it
Within the Microsoft 365, youknow, any kind of things that
are jumping out at you, kind ofcommon themes, apart from
Copilot, apart from CopilotActually there's some really
good ones on, or this is a casestudy as well but growing
(44:51):
cultural you know the culturalside of things.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
So how you actually develop that culture, how you
get people to embed and adoptthe tools Because I think that's
been quite a challenge is youknow, we've got this tool, now
what do we do with it?
And I was actually thinkingwhether I did something like
that myself, but I put myselfdown for something different.
But anyway, there is a bit ofthat, though, and then there is
(45:15):
a couple of sessions ongovernance, because that's the
other challenge that people arehaving.
So, whether it's Power Platformgovernance or M365, you know,
that governance thing has beenaround for a while as we know,
but it still has a high.
You know, it's still got a placeand it's still a problem.
Hey, there's one speaker I wantto call out because I don't
know if you've ever followed himand I've just had him join.
(45:37):
So he does.
Moca have you heard of MoCA,the Modern Workplace
Architecture CollaborationFramework, or something?
I've got that round the wrongway.
Anyway, he talks a lot aboutattention, using attention and
how people's attention get takenaway, and he came up with this
MoCA framework.
It was included in all theadoption stuff for Microsoft and
(45:58):
now he works for Microsoft.
His name's Rishi Nikolai and heactually is Australian Well,
not originally, by the sounds ofit.
I don't know exactly what hishistory is, but yeah, so I don't
know.
I've just read so much of hisstuff online and really liked
his Mocha framework and used itfrom an adoption point of view.
So I was quite excited when hegot hold of me and said, yes,
(46:21):
come along and speak.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Yeah, yeah.
The other thing I would alsosay is anyone that's listening
to this kind of thing goingalong is that I think, once
again, 10 years ago, there wasexpectation that you had to have
like big budgets and bigpockets to do some of the stuff
that you'd see, and that wasalways a frustration.
People would say, oh yeah, it'sgreat, lee, but that's going to
cost me, you know, 50k, 60k,70k, and so just interest, like
(46:43):
even some of the work I'm doingnow, as I mentioned to you, I'm
back on the tools at the momentand just enjoying it and
building some stuff, but some ofthese things I'm building, I'm
like I've just done four hoursit's got to, which probably
would have taken you easily Fourweeks, four weeks yeah, that's
the exciting thing, because Iguess they call well some of it
(47:04):
citizen developer stuff, themore people that can do it
themselves.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
But even just understanding, yeah, that
they've got all of these toolsand they're not using them.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Yeah, yeah, but I think it's more accessible.
I think that's what it is.
So these, you know what we callworkflow solutions or apps or
whatever they're just you canbuild them in a day, like less
than a day, and you know, and itmeans and it's yeah, it won't
be kind of, you know, perfect,but it'll do 90% of what you
need and you know better thanthe way you did it before.
So, yeah, I think that'sanother thing will be stuff that
(47:36):
you'd have because you'vealready got the tools.
It's in the toolkit.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
you just need to be able to configure it, you can
get someone to come along andnail it real quickly.
Yeah, because that's way, wayhigher value.
It sounds so cliche, but beingin the moment and enjoying that
very moment, without stressingabout the next five weeks, five
(48:00):
years, 50 years, whatever.
Enjoying that moment rightthere and then.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
So that's another great episode, done and dusted,
as always.
I'd love to hear from you ifyou know anyone that's got a
really good story to tell abouthow they are or not living a
productive life.
If you want to get in touchwith me, please do so by my
website, wwwleesteensco, that'swwwliestephensco.
You can email me, lee atleastephensco, or get in touch
(48:30):
on LinkedIn, which is where Ialso hang out In the meantime,
have a good week, thank you.
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