Managing Change Management with Sharon Connolly

Discover the incredible journey of Sharon Connolly, an enterprise change manager at Change Superhero, whose unique childhood living in a caravan near Windsor, UK, laid the foundation for her pioneering career. Sharon shares an inspiring story of academic success that saw her become the first in her family to attend grammar school, all while navigating the initial hurdles of entering the workforce at 16. This episode highlights her unexpected transition from hairdressing aspirations to a profound interest in IT and change management, detailing her first job as an accounts assistant and her early contributions to IT training.

Uncover the realities and misconceptions of change management with Sharon as she explains why it’s often unfairly seen as a costly and problematic task. She provides firsthand insights into how integrating change management from the start of a project can make all the difference, sharing personal experiences from her work with Unilever and other digital transformation initiatives. Through her narrative, Sharon emphasizes the importance of considering the human factor, overcoming resistance, and dealing with change fatigue to ensure successful and sustainable change within organizations.

In the face of new technological advancements, Sharon shares her thoughts on the future of change management, including the promising impact of AI. She stresses the importance of AI literacy for change managers and the potential for AI to revolutionize productivity and perspectives within projects. From guiding users through Office 365 to addressing fears about AI, Sharon provides practical advice and actionable tips for navigating the challenges and leveraging the opportunities presented by technological evolution. Join us for this compelling conversation and gain invaluable insights into mastering the art of change management in today's ever-evolving corporate landscape.

Hear how some of Australasia's most interesting and successful people are utilising People, Technology and Processes to live a productive life.

For more information on Lee Stevens visit www.leestevens.co

Sponsored by workforcery.com

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Time and Motion podcast with me, your
host, lee Stevens.
For over 25 years I've workedwith businesses all over the
world to improve the technologyand the people within them.
In this podcast, I share someof my experiences and I chat to
guests who generously sharetheir stories of how to or, in
some cases, how to live aproductive life.
I hope you enjoy the show.

(00:28):
In today's episode I catch upwith Sharon Connolly from Change
Superhero.
Sharon is an enterprise changemanager for all sorts of
technology projects and I mether at the Digit Workplace

(00:50):
Conference a few weeks ago wherewe was having a very robust
debate about what changemanagement is, why businesses
need it and how we go aboutdoing change management.
So really good episode.
If you actually want to knowhow to deliver technology
projects successfully in yourorganization and just want a few
tips about how you go aboutdoing that yourself, then this
is well worth a listen.

(01:10):
So on with the show, sharonConnolly.
Welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Hello, glad to be here, Lee.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Thanks for coming on to the Time and Motion podcast
and yeah, it took a few weeks,but yeah, really really glad you
come on the show and thanks formaking the time to come on.
So, sharon, before we get intoit, I always like to start at
the beginning, so tell us aboutwhere you grew up and how you
became a change superhero.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
So I grew up in the UK in a town just outside of
Windsor or, for anybody whowatched the original Office
really close to Slough, reallyreally close to Slough.
So that's my origins.
I actually grew up.
I spent my first five yearsliving in a caravan with no
running water and no electricity.

(01:57):
Why was that?
Because that's where we grew up.
Not at all.
So you enjoyed school, did okayat school?
Yeah, I did okay.
Not at all.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
So yeah, so enjoyed school.
Did okay at school.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, I did okay.
Yeah, absolutely did okay atschool.
And one thing that was sort ofinteresting talking about school
, I'm the oldest of 14grandchildren and I was the
first one we had in the UK.
For anybody listening, in otherplaces around the world we have
an entrance exam, like it'scalled the 12 plus, and I

(02:26):
unexpectedly passed my 12 plus.
Wasn't expected for that tohappen in my family because
nobody was particularly umscholarly.
I passed my 12 plus so I wasthe first, the first one in the
family to to go to grammarschool okay, okay.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
And uni further education what happened?

Speaker 2 (02:44):
there.
No, I didn't do that.
I didn't do that.
I was planning on studyinghairdressing and beauty therapy,
which I'm so glad that I didn'tAlthough if I had done, I think
I would have had a string ofsalons.
But I left school at 16 and youcouldn't start that course
until you were 17.
So I thought I don't know whatI'll do, you know, for that year

(03:07):
until I was 17, and I ended updoing a lot of waitressing, um,
working in restaurants and barsand things, and then I got the
taste of having some money anddecided not to go back in and do
my course and just started toto go into the workforce, and I
was highly disgusted that um, Icould, that I would have to work

(03:27):
in an office all the time toearn less money than I would get
doing waitressing on a Fridayand Saturday night.
But I did, however, work in anoffice, which was my first
introduction to IT.
I was an accounts assistant, soI had to um, I had to grab all

(03:48):
of the checks, so we would getall of the the the checks in and
I would have to write them downon a sheet of paper.
There were a couple of wordprocessors in the office only a
couple Um and I dabbled with it.
They let me sit there and Idabbled with it and this is
where I thought, oh, I can dothis, I can.

(04:09):
So I had no experience withwith computers, but I picked
this up very quickly and thenthis was really the start of my
career in in in IT, um ITtraining, which we didn't have
change management, the theformal name of change management
at that time.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
But that's when I became a change manager, when I
started to do um IT trainingyeah, and, by the way, for those
younger people listening,checks are these things that
people used to say for payment.
And it's interesting because Ihad a similar approach to you.
I kind of went out and workedat 17, but my first job was in a
check clearing house.
So it was basically when theco-op bank and Barclays Bank all

(04:42):
used to swap checks at the endof the day and then they'd work
at who owes people what.
But yeah, I said it to my kidsthe other day what's a check?
I was like, oh yeah, I'm noteven gonna start there, okay.
So you fell into changemanagement, as it's known now.
Um, yeah, and then uh,different, different
organizations, different jobs.
What did you do from there on?

Speaker 2 (05:01):
yeah, um.
So I worked that.
The company that I worked atwas called um wordplex and
interestingly they had a um.
They had a few things that weretoo early for their time so
they had a laptop.
Now it was almost the size of asuitcase but they had this
first introductory like computerthat you carried around and it

(05:23):
was the first ever laptop.
But it was never successful.
Um, obviously laptops were, butthey didn't quite make it on
that.
And also they had the firstintegrated it system with a word
processor and email.
It was called ceo, comprehensiveelectronic office, and I
learned all about that and Ilearned to teach it.
So, working for thisorganization, then I went out to

(05:50):
their customers and I wastraining their customers.
So this was secretaries,administrators, management
weren't using these theirclients, which was Southwark
Council.
So I worked and set up an ITtraining area for Southwark
Council.
So just to let you know howlong ago this was, this was 1989

(06:15):
.
In 1989, I set up my firsttraining room with a team for
Southwark Council and we had 10computers and we would train
people.
So I was there for a littlewhile, then I went out on my own
and then I became a freelancetrainer and started to learn all
of the other applications whichare at the time WordPerfect,

(06:36):
amipro, displayright,wordperfect and Word and Excel
snuck in there and that's whereI sort of excelled and obviously
that's the way that it went andfor many years I rolled out
training programs fororganizations.
Going back to again the factthat that is change management
or the way that we were doing.
It was change management but itdidn't have the official title

(06:58):
there.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Then out of interest then I decided, after 15 years
of going you know I love Wordand I love Excel I thought I
don't want to do this anymoreand I completely changed what I
did and I changed to be an imageconsultant.
So I took people shopping and Itold them what colors to wear
and I actually ended up having avery successful business as an

(07:23):
image consultant.
I was on TV, I had a littlestudio, had people working for
me, and the reason that this isso pivotal is that is the most
that I ever learned about change.
When you go into somebody'shome and you're rifling through
their wardrobe and you're tryingto get rid of things and this
is not just women, this is menas well you are really really

(07:45):
changing them at their core, attheir request most of the time,
but you really really learnabout change, resistance and
taking people on a journey.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
Amazing.
And then.
But then, how did you get awayfrom that back into the world
you're in now?

Speaker 2 (07:58):
then, I got divorced.
Oh, there's always a man or awoman.
Yeah, I got divorced.
So I was living in Singaporeand I split up with my husband
of almost 20 years and living ina country where I couldn't get
a proper visa and I didn'treally know what I wanted to do

(08:18):
and I had this background ofthis scrappy entrepreneur.
You just do whatever you can,you just roll up your sleeves
and if people were going toteach me, were going to pay me
to do IT training.
That's the way that's where Iwent.
Then, on the man theme, I cameto Australia to be with my now
husband and I started working atWestpac in the change space.

(08:41):
I wasn't in the IT space, I wasin the change space there, and
that's sort of how I've comefull circle round to where I am
now in change.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Okay.
So, moving on to the changemanagement and, I suppose, the
leadership side of things aswell, one thing I really like we
had a panel discussion, I think, a few weeks ago before the
Digital Workplace Conference,and I think we was disagreeing,
but I think we were alsoagreeing and I like that.
I like the fact when peoplechallenge your thinking and you
know, because otherwise we'd allbe boring and we'd all be the

(09:14):
same right.
So I just thought it'd bereally good to kind of get you
onto the show, because I lovedyour passion.
I thought it was.
You know, I agree with a lot ofthe things you said.
So, look, change managementwe've all worked in IT and
worked in corporate and thatkind of stuff has a bit of a
dirty word, bit of a dirty, doyou think?
So?
I think it does.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
yeah, Well, tell me, where do you hear that?

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Well, because I think the I come from the pragmatic
side school of of uh it andgetting things done.
But you know, having worked atplaces like barclays and diageo
and some of those bigger ones,that you know the minute I feel
said on this panel session, theminute a change manager is
involved, they're like oh, hangon, either the project's in

(09:58):
trouble or, which I know is notright either the project's on
trouble or this is going to bereally expensive.
So what?
What's your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Well, I think that depends on a number of things
and I think it's a reallyinteresting perspective and it's
quite worrying for changemanagers and I'm not sure that
it's so relevant now inAustralia, but it may be very
relevant in other places aroundthe world.
It depends on the changematurity of the organization,

(10:28):
because if the organization isfairly change mature, then
change management will be partof the initial business case.
They will know that to progressthe change whether it's
technology, moving, a building,regulatory change they will know
that to get end-to-end adoption, some type of change management

(10:49):
should be included.
Now, whether that's afractional change manager,
whether that is a BA with somereally good communication skills
, whether it's a project managerwith a bit of both, it should
be in the business case toconsider the user journey.
So that's what should happen.
I hear you on the expensive bitand I'm also on the school or
the way that I work now is I'mquite often a fractional change

(11:11):
manager.
So I'll come into your project,I'll look at what you're trying
to do.
I'll say, okay, look, I seehere where you might have some
resistance.
Here are some sticky points.
Let me help you with this, butlet me enable you to do this
inside your organization so thatit's not so expensive, so to
get the most bang for your buck.
So I think I hear you on theexpensive, but there's ways to

(11:36):
do that just by having that highlevel strategic stuff.
Some of the challenges are thechange managers.
They're not portfolioenterprise-based enough.
They're talking about fluffystuff they concentrate on oh,
let's get everybody in a roomand let's do a group hug.
And can I ask you what sandwichyou feel like you are today?

(11:57):
So I do think that there aresome change managers that don't
do the industry as a whole anyfavors because they don't come
in and go.
What's the problem we're tryingto solve?
How do we provide that solutionand how do we measure whether
we're successful?
How do we put our hands up andsay this isn't working and we
need leadership intervention?

Speaker 1 (12:19):
where do you think change management came about?
Because I say it was it kind offelt like in about a 10-year
period, one minute, it was allproject.
You're either a project manager, maybe a business analyst, or
you as the I don't know thesenior person writing the checks
.
But it kind of felt and lookonce again and I'm sure you'll

(12:41):
explain to me what it is in anutshell, but I think it was
long overdue, right?
So what do you think was thetrigger?
That kind of caused change andit's become a proper thing and
people start taking it seriously.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Do you know?
I have no idea, but I do wishthat I was in on the sort of you
know the turning up of this atthe time I was mentioning that.
So I was in Singapore.
This was 2009, 2010.
I had gone over there with thisyou know fancy pants business
as an image consultant.
I wasn't in IT when my marriagesplit up and I had to work.

(13:20):
I didn't really know where Ifitted.
I had done training before I'ddone instructional design.
I had this image stuff.
I worked with a lot ofentrepreneurs, taking them on a
journey.
I worked in a lot of ITprojects where we looked at the
user journey and we looked atdriving adoption.
I was doing quite a bit of workfor Hewlett Packard, but I

(13:40):
didn't know that change managerexisted.
So at that time in Singapore,if I knew that I was a change
manager, I could have walkedinto Standard Chartered,
deutsche Bank, any of thesebanks, and gone hello, I'm a
change manager, give me a job,and I would have been fine.
It wasn't until I got here toAustralia and I was working as

(14:00):
an instructional designer, somaking e-learning, and I then
saw these people that were thego-betweens between.
This is the learning that I'mdoing and this is what the end
users want, and I'm like, hangon a minute, I need to be in
that conversation.
You're not in that conversation.
That's what the change managersdo, and that was a big
eye-opener for me going and thatwas a big eye opener for me

(14:22):
going.
That's what I am.
I am the person that translatesthe business requirements into
the deliverables.
That's what I do.
But prior to that, I didn'tknow what it was, and I think
that there are organizationsthat still don't know what it
was, and probably up until 10years ago maybe, they were still

(14:44):
called training managers.
And we've got all of thisflip-flopping around as well
with change managers now going.
I don't want to be called achange manager, I want to be
called a transformationarchitect.
Okay, and yeah, it's not change, it's transformation.
It's.
You know, and I always I usedto do this thing as well with an

(15:04):
image consultant, becausepeople would sit around the
table with loads of other imageconsultants.
We go what do we call ourselves?
Because image consultant soundsa bit fancy and we really
provide important services toindividuals that have lost their
weight and their confidence.
I think the image consultantsounds a bit superficial.

(15:26):
We do so much more and we wouldsit there thinking about oh,
I'm a personal presentation,personal branding specialist, or
I'm a clothing architect all ofthese stupid, stupid terms.
But at the end of the day, whensomebody Googles you because
they want to hire you, what arethey going to Google, don't?

Speaker 1 (15:46):
you're not going to say, oh, I'm in the market for a
transformation architect, yeah,I need a change manager I think
it's a tough one, though, right, because, you know, probably
really similar to yourself, kindof you fall into it.
Um, but ultimately, because Ididn't come from a technology
background, I guess I look atthings for a completely
different lens and still do.
And you know, yeah, is thatkind of a negative sometimes?

(16:08):
Yeah, it probably is, but atthe same time, you know, I think
it's also my kind of specialstrength.
But, yeah, I think that, um,yeah, I agree with you.
But what, what is it?
You call yourself and it'sinteresting, I had this
conversation the other day withsomeone and, having you know,
run your own business for bestpart of 20 years now, they said
to me, oh, you know, you haven'treally got much experience
doing this or expect so.

(16:29):
And then I was like, oh, yeah,well, you know, because you've
had a basis, but I have, becauseyou end up doing everything
right and you become, becomereally good at becoming project
management, change manager,business analyst, and in the end
I just called myself aconsultant because I just didn't
know what, because the realityis you could probably do that
change management probably.
Well, I think one of thosethings that is is a bit more

(16:50):
specialist, but projectmanagement consulting BA
configuration.
You can.
You can wear different hats,right it's so overlapping.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
And I think there's an interesting thing that we've
only had in maybe the last,slightly before COVID, but when
I got here.
So I got into Australia in 2015to start working and this is
when I did the instructionaldesign role, and I only got that
because in the project that Iwas working on, something had

(17:21):
all gone wrong and the personthe instructional designer had
to leave rather rapidly becauseof a difference of opinion and
they needed somebody who wasavailable tomorrow, and that was
me, because otherwise it'squite difficult to get into
financial services.
And one of the things that Ibegan to realize is that you and

(17:41):
I we've got this background ofscrappy entrepreneur where when
people say, hey, can you do X, y, z if you've got no work on,
you go absolutely.
Of course, I can run a customerservice call I'm so sorry, I
don't have any availability forthe next six weeks Google's
customer service call.
You're a scrappy entrepreneurand also, even if you're hired

(18:02):
to do A, you're in the projectand you lend your hand to B and
C, and that's just what we do In2015,.
I don't think that that was avery valuable and sought after
skill.
Today.
It is gold, it's absolutelygold to have this person in your
project that has got a wealthof experience in different

(18:25):
verticals, in differentindustries, but also outside of
their profession.
So, with you and I, changemanagement, project management,
but customer service, personalbranding, all of the things that
we have done, includingtechnical writers and that type

(18:45):
of thing, and just rolling upyour sleeves in organizations of
all sizes is absolutely goldbecause, as well with diversity
and inclusion, we are reallygood at seeing it from other
people's perspectives, becausetime and time again, what we do
as an entrepreneur is we prove.

(19:05):
We've got to prove that we addvalue.
Why are you here?
What problem are you solving?
And one of the things that wereally have to do all the time
is take our shoes off, put onsomebody else's and walk a mile
in them to then deliver theoutcomes, and that is so
valuable.
And I just sit there andmeeting after meeting sometimes

(19:26):
and I think, well, that was acomplete waste of time because
nobody identified any problem,nobody actually did any call to
actions, nobody knows wherethey're going.
They're all giving each other around of applause and talking
in three letter abbreviations.
What are we actually doing here?

Speaker 1 (19:45):
why have we got 10 people doing this wrong when two
people could, could do this andit's interesting because I,
like I can remember, one of myfirst meetings was with unilever
and oh, I worked with unilever.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
I'll tell you what I did with unilever in a minute
and um I can.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
It was like, oh, we need this.
We've been let down by a thirdagency.
You need to start as aSharePoint project manager on
the Monday, right?
I was like good luck with that,bear in mind I was doing
recruitment at the time.
I said, look, tell me what youneed Someone who knows
difference betweeninfrastructure and development.
I went, yeah, I went.
Someone who's good with people.
Yeah, knows enough and and isorganized.

(20:32):
I could do that.
Joking around.
They were like, exactly likeyou just said, great start
monday.
You know 4, 50 a day, oh crap.
So I can remember being in thatmeeting on the monday morning
and they're literally there was10 people.
Three of them have flown overfrom the states and they're like
, oh hey, we just can'tunderstand why our
infrastructure guys just can'tchurn out the code.
And I was like infrastructurepeople.
They went what you do realize,not coders.
They went what do you mean?
They're it people, they'retechies.
I said, right, I said thatthing, there's a computer that's

(20:53):
like a server, that's a bit oftin.
They manage that.
Yeah, coders, they go in andthey code stuff, all those funny
numbers and words on the on thescreen.
Ah, why has no one ever told usthat before, probably because
they're too scared to, or youknow yeah, absolutely, but
exactly what you just said.
Sometimes that ignorance is oneof the best things, you because
you're like well, what are we?
Why are we doing this?
What are we actually trying toachieve?

(21:14):
Um, but yeah, reallyinteresting, you say that.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Um, so you mentioned transformation I I need to tell
you what I did for Unilever,because it was really
interesting, yeah.
So I was hired for Unilever todo a new and this is the
multi-skills thing.
It was soap powder, and thisparticular soap powder sells in

(21:37):
third world countries.
So in places in Africa, inSouth America, your wealth is
actually measured by how whiteyour clothes are.
You can't buy clothes, but ifyou can wash them, you are like
somebody if you can wash yourclothes.
So there were all of theseroadshows where they wanted to
explain the premise behind theirproducts to other areas of the

(21:58):
business.
So they hired me as an imageconsultant to come in and give
about eight members of theirteam a makeover.
So we took them off, I tookthem to Harrods and I got them
new outfits.
And then I had to do a fashionshow and here's the things where
you never know what's going tocome in handy and I had some

(22:20):
other image consultants helpingme.
And then they said I don'tsuppose you could choreograph a
little dance for them so thatwhen they come out onto the
stage they do this dance?
Well, I, I, I trained aerobicsinstructor so I can put a dance
together to music.
So I'm like absolutely noproblem whatsoever.
So I've then got.

(22:41):
I've been.
This is my day.
My day's job was that day, acouple of days taking people
shopping in Harrods, taking themfor champagne lunches, dressing
them up, doing their makeup,choreographing this dance with
them and then trotting them allout on stage in a day's like
this is a job?
No way.
It was brilliant, fun,brilliant, brilliant fun.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
Did you ever go to Port Sunlight at all?

Speaker 2 (23:04):
I did, yes, did.
I did a couple of talks there.
So after we did that, wecouldn't replicate that in other
areas, but I did go to portsunlight and talk about so that,
as me, as an image consultantwas talking about how you, what
you wear impacts the way thatyou feel and the way you present
yourself.
So I did that in Port Sunlightand I was due to go and do it in

(23:26):
, uh, istanbul.
I was so excited, um, and thenthere was bird flu and it was
cancelled and I went toEastbourne instead of Istanbul
Port.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
Sunlight's probably a little bit different to
Istanbul, I would imagine.
So, yeah, yeah, okay.
So back to change management.
Um, as I say, because it doeshave a bit of a um not negative
connotation, but it definitelyhas a, a reputation.
You mentioned about digitaltransformation.
I agree with you 100, it's areal um.

(23:54):
I don't want to use the word,but it's a, it's a.
It's a word that getscompletely overused, and I do
think we're coming out the otherside of it where people are
starting to say, actually, well,this just means, uh, we're
going to put some projects in orput some systems in that we
should have done years ago,right, but why do you think most
of these transformationprojects fail?
Is it because of leadership?

(24:15):
Is it because they haven'tbrought in a change manager?
Let's take an ERP project, forexample.
You hear about these bigfinances.
Why do they fail?

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Well, first of all, all we have to have a definition
of failure.
So this is a.
This is a big bugbear with umchange managers, because people
will.
They'll get this stat thatcomes from some ibm study in
1970 um, that says 70 percent of70 percent of digital
transformations fail.
Okay, so first of all and Iwon't go into too much detail,
but let's define failure.

(24:44):
Is running over budget and overtime, or perhaps scope creep or
changing scope?
Is that failure, in which caseevery single one of them will
fail?
But they don't fail.
What happens most of the time isthat they adopt what, in
project terms, we would call alift and shift mentality.

(25:05):
So we're going to take we're onversion one, we need to move to
version two, or we're onon-premise and we need to move
to the cloud.
We're making a change, and thenthe change manager if the
change manager is involved saysamazing, what we've got is an
opportunity here to upliftdigital capability, to get
people trained.
We've got some new featuresthat they can learn.

(25:27):
I'm so excited about thereduction in frustration and the
increase in productivity andthey go oh, no training, no, no,
no.
What we're going to do is justgoing to take what we have
already and we're just going tomake it work in the new platform
and then we'll come and look atthe training.
And then they never look at thetraining.
So what happens is people taketheir existing capability into a

(25:50):
new and expensive platformwithout giving them the
opportunity, without giving thepeople using it the opportunity
to achieve benefit realization.
And it's cost, it's cost.
It's cost because the project'sbrief is lift this from
platform a and shift it toplatform b and then your job is

(26:13):
done and that for the projectand quite often for the sponsor.
Job done.
Thank you very much.
We are paid and on our way home, but the change manager will
have different benefits.
They'll go okay.
Will we increase productivity?
Will we reduce frustration?
Will we get better reporting?

(26:36):
The project might be, is itmore secure?
And they may have some benefitslike that, can we work from
anywhere?
But the change manager willreally look at the human side of
it and, from a changemanagement perspective, these
projects will often fail becausethere is no budget relevant.
We do things differently interms of bite-sized learning and

(27:08):
snacks and self-serve learningjourneys, but it's not even
considered because it's normallyout of scope yep, agree, 100.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
And I think the other thing you probably used to deal
with is that training andtesting always used to get a
percentage of the budget as well.
So do you still just see thathappen?

Speaker 2 (27:27):
yeah, I will put 10 aside for training or five
percent for training one of theother problems that you've got
about that, though, is and thisis something that I have
experienced a few times you canlead a horse to water, you can
push its head under the water,hold it down, but you still

(27:48):
can't necessarily make it drink,and, as somebody who does, like
you, the Microsoft technologiesas well inside organizations.
So I'm going to have a lunchand learn of the new features of
Teams.
Come along and I'm going toshow you the six new cool
formulas in Excel.
No bugger turns up, and thenyou've got a problem with

(28:11):
digital literacy, but nobody istaking the handouts that you're
giving them On average.
So I have got I'm doing aco-pilot course next week.
I've got 520 people signed up.
I will be lucky if 100 turn up,and and you probably have the
same you have the same tonight.
I've got 120 people for a 40minute session on excel data

(28:35):
tables, because excel datatables are really important if
we want co-pilot to talk to ourExcel data, so I'm going okay,
nobody's telling you what thisis.
I'm going to tell you what thisis.
120 people turn up, 120 peoplebooked.
I reckon I will have 25 thereand they'll all say, oh, watch
the recording, and then theydon't, because I look at the

(28:57):
metrics there.
So we provide this training,whether it's paid, whether it's
free, whether the organisationis putting it on there, but
people do not consume it becausethey don't see the value.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
I think one thing I see quite a lot as well is
people are really stuck in theirways, and it's not necessarily
an age thing.
There's one project I've workedon recently where this guy is
the same age as me.
He just refused to budge fromemail and I was like but you do
realize all the problems this isgoing to cause your
organization.
Oh well, everyone else can useit and I won't.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
I won't use Teams, but that becomes a problem,
because then it's oheverything's in there, but apart
from what you did, and so butyeah, just that kind of and I
guess that's probably part ofchange management as well as
bringing people on the journey,right, yeah, and what you have
to do there, it's not the changemanagers can facilitate that,
but that's a leadershipconversation that requires the

(29:53):
CEO to go.
This is our channel.
I will only be sending stuffout via Teams.

Speaker 1 (29:59):
What if it was the CEO?
Though?
Right, because this is thething, the thing, right, this is
it.
Often it is the ceo or a seniorleader.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
That's actually big and you can't win that battle.
That is not a battle that youcan win if, if you've got the it
department going, okay.
So teams, we're going to useteams and viva engage as our
main communication channels andwe're going to push everything
out to our frontline workers ontheir digital, on their smart
devices, and then you've got aCEO either refusing to use that

(30:28):
channel or sometimes, even worse, doubling up.
Go, I'll just send an emailjust in case they didn't get it.
It has to be, it's a cultural,it's a cultural thing and you
can't do anything about that.
As the change manager or theinstructional designer, trained
change manager, well, I say youcan't do anything about that.

(30:48):
You could do it by stealth.
So what I do there and this iswhere Change Superhero comes
around and why I've got afollowing is you drip feed,
valuable behavior, shiftingnuggets of information.
You show people a tiny littlething and they go.
What was that?
Oh, my goodness, how did I notknow that?

(31:11):
And then, when you've hookedthem, they come back for more.
And as a change manager, ifyou're smart, you can do that
without leadership intervention.
Um, and then what that does isdepending on on the structure of
your employment.

Speaker 1 (31:25):
You go to another, you become an in-demand person,
you become a valuable commodityor it's easy for you to get your
next role or your next contractthere because you have
followers, which is which iswhere I'm at with change
superhero yeah, and I think andonce again it goes back to your
point around being having amultifaceted approach If you've

(31:46):
done multiple roles, you kind ofyou can walk a mile in their
shoes, you can understand, youknow, as you say, what that
impact of change is.
So, yeah, I hear you on thatone.
From a change perspective, Iguess, what point do you think
change becomes too disruptive tomanage?
So is there a point where youlook on a tap out and you say to

(32:07):
an organisation no, this is toomuch, you know, don't do it.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
That's a tough one.
So actually it's's a tough one.
So actually it's not.
It's it's not a tough one whenyou don't have the full support
of a very structured governancecommittee.
So if you're trying to roll outchange and you don't have an
engaged sponsor that isdelivering that for you, or I

(32:42):
have organizations that maybeare not very mature in their
project governance, where you'vegot things like the project
people on the steer co, oryou've got multiple sponsors for
the same project, the buck hasto stop with somebody and where
the buck stops, that person mustfight your corner.
If you don't have somebodyfighting your corner that can be

(33:05):
heard, that is listened to andrespective, you might as well
throw in the towel.
So that's one reason.
And change managers.
I do change coaching andthey'll often say when do I give
up?
You know, because we don't wantto challenge.
Resistance is normal.
Building resilience is one ofthe things that we need to do.

(33:26):
There will always be laggardsthat are not early adopters,
that don't want to embrace thechange.
There will always be edge cases, and that is normal.
But when you throw in the towelis when you don't have the
senior leaders behind youbacking you or, worse, actually
setting you up for failure, sothat that that is one, one

(33:49):
reason.
That's, that's the main reasonthat you would.
You would throw it in the towel.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
So on a similar note, another thing I hear quite a
lot is we can't do this project.
We've got change fatigue,there's too much going on, right
.
And so I'm kind of a bit tornon this one, right, because I
look at it and go well, you know, one of my early values was
thrive on change.
Because, you know, I worked forInvestec Bank and they said
that was one of their values andI thought, oh, I like that one,

(34:17):
I'll use that.
But you know, in a world we'rein where it's constant change
and we're constantly having toevolve, I'm like well, surely
this is just the way of theworld, but do you have like a
playbook for how you manage thatscenario?

Speaker 2 (34:31):
Well, first of all, you have to identify it.
So a lot of organisations don'thave the ability to identify
change saturation, changecollision, change fatigue.
So for anybody who's notfamiliar with that, what that
means is and here's a greatexample is that you're a banker
working in a branch in Westpacand you have got multiple areas

(34:55):
of the business going.
Hey, bank representative, we'vegot a new mortgage, we've got a
new credit card, we've got somenew regulations here, and we
need you to just attend thiswebinar.
We need you to do this onlinetraining.
Can you read these comms?
And then when this person addsup all of the effort that is
required to absorb the changesnot memorizing and practicing it

(35:16):
, just reading it they haven'tgot enough time to do their job,
which means that they can'tmeet their KPIs.
So this is an example of changesaturation, change collision.
And then we get the apathywhich people go oh God, not
another change.
So what do we do with that?
So an organization needs tobecome more mature so that they

(35:37):
can identify these changes.
This is problematic for thembecause if they're not very
nifty with spreadsheets or theydon't have an enterprise change
management system, it can bequite difficult for them to see
when that's going to happen.
So they have to identify it.
Then they have to act on it.
And the challenge with actingon it is we spread out all of

(35:57):
our changes.
Oh, but then somebody got COVIDand then this one's now bumped
into this one and they'll bumpinto each other.
Okay, so what do you do there?
You need leaders to go.
Okay, I've got the backs ofthese bankers.
We've got to give them time.
But also we need to.
Then again, this is changematurity.
We need to have a changecommunity of practice that goes.

(36:18):
Hang on a minute.
We've got 17 changes coming inin this month.
Instead of them doing 17learning videos, could a few of
us group together and put all ofthat information in a story, in
a video story?
Could we create a newsletter?
Could we, instead of themhaving to go to 17 things, could
we have one person coming alongand telling us everything

(36:40):
that's going to change?
And this is a change maturitything that somewhere like CBA
and Westpac in some areas managethat and they have things
called a change front door.
So to introduce a change intoyour business, the change
manager almost has to knock onthe front door and go hello.
This is what I'd like to bringinto your area.
Can I talk to you a little bitabout it?

(37:01):
And they have to sign off thatit's coming into their business.
So it's a change maturity thing, but changes happen all the
time.
You walk into Woolworths andit's really I'm still not over
this yet my Woolworths has movedeverything around.
I go in and I'm after where arethe biscuits moved?

(37:24):
Everything around.
I go in and I'm after where arethe biscuits?
The bread used to be there.
There's no change, manager.
I just have to walk around infrustration for a little bit
until I get used to it.
Changes happen all the time.
All the time there's a you knowsomebody's digging up the
pavement, I have to cross theroad and go the other way.
The post is only delivered hereon Mondays and Wednesdays, and
it used to be Tuesdays andThursdays.

(37:44):
Things change all the time,including our software Facebook,
linkedin, all of our apps,netflix.
You put Netflix on and you gooh, the search has moved.
We navigate it, we're fine withit.
We are fine with it, butsometimes it would be better if
there was an arrow going.
You now search for Bridgertondown here.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
Or not in my case, well, I've never watched it.
I haven't watched it, okay, allright.
So with things like hybrid workand obviously I feel like we're
kind of coming back to fullcircle where people are saying
they come back into the officeand stuff like that, and I guess
, you know, I kind of really siton the fence with that but do

(38:28):
you think those kind of modelsand that scenario where we've
got our workforce kind of spreadout and, you know, splitting
across different locations,different working setups and
stuff, I mean, as a changemanager, that must be a
nightmare, right, becausethere's no one scenario, right.
But how do you kind of plan forthat?

Speaker 2 (38:48):
Well, again, it has to be leadership driven.
But you have to fight the rightbattles.
I was in a meeting with someother CEOs a couple of weeks ago
and one of the CEOs was sayingI just can't get people to come
into the office.
We just can't get them to comeinto the office.
And I said well, first of all,you just tell them to come into

(39:09):
the office.
But also, why do you want themto come into the office?
Do you not trust what they'redoing at home?
What's the benefit of themcoming into the office?
And she said well, you know,it's team morale and they get to
hear calls from other people.
And I said well, the thingsthat you've just told me that
they need to come into theoffice for they can do those at
home.
So why do they need to comeinto the office?

(39:31):
To hear some valuable storiesabout?
You know, I was on a call witha customer and this worked and
this strategy worked.
You just have a sharing session.
So if they need to come intothe office, get them into the
office.
I mean, I do quite like that.
Elon Musk says you know, if youwant to pretend to work at home
, you can go and pretend to workfor another company.
I do think that there is stillan element of that.

(39:56):
But there are distributedworkforces.
People work in teams across theworld very effectively together
.
They don't have to come intothe office.
Some of my bestest friends andone of the best teams that I
ever worked with was at AMP inCOVID.
We didn't meet.
The change team didn't actuallymeet for nearly a year, and we

(40:21):
are.
You know, we went to eachother's weddings and
christenings and things.
We formed such a brilliant teamwithout meeting each other, and
we obviously now have done.
But it's and this is withactivity-based working as well.
Fight the right battles.
Fight the right battles.
You know this is about.

(40:41):
Oh well, we need people to booktheir desks in an empty office.
You know, people, I'm rollingout a desk booking system and
then somebody comes in and theygo oh, you can only sit here,
you've got to book this desk.
Yeah, it's like walking into anempty restaurant.
Have you booked what?
Like, you've got no room for us.
Why do I have to make a bookingin an empty restaurant?
So, um, yeah, yeah, and we'vegot the same thing for the same

(41:07):
thing for activity-based working.
Um, I, last time this was anissue for me was that, um, I was
working at westpac and you haveto go in two days a week, so
you tuesdays and thursdays, oryour designated day, you must
come in.
Okay, I'm cool with that.
I like to be around everybody.
You come in.
There's no way to sit, so Icome in and I have to work two

(41:28):
floors above the people that Inormally work with, where I sit
in a cubicle on my own,surrounded with people who I
don't know, and I've got nothingto do with my working area.
But I'm in.
I would be better working fromhome.
So it is about really makingsure that you're solving the
right problem withactivity-based working.

(41:49):
Really making sure that you'resolving the right problem with
activity-based working, withhybrid working, and making sure
that you're fighting the rightbattles.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
Yep, I agree with you 100%.
And so another slightlyfacetious comment.
But I can remember, in about ayear after COVID, it said you
know which of these is mostresponsible for organisational
change?
After COVID, it said you knowwhich of these is most
responsible for organisationalchange?
And it was number one was theCIO, number two was CEO, number
three was COVID-19, right.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
And it was like, and I guess, you know.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
But whilst it's facetious, I guess in some ways
you probably must be thinkinglike hallelujah, because there
are times when change is forcedupon us and you have to change
and you move.
You have to move quickly, right.
And so I think, if that'staught us, anything is proved we
can.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
We can change quickly when we need to yeah, but I
think that generally, peopledon't see the adaptation that we
, the adaptations that we madein um covid.
They don't generally see thatwith as change management.
And it wasn't change managementbecause we didn't.

(42:56):
There wasn't.
There were no businessrequirements, there wouldn't.
There was no stakeholderengagement.
We didn't understand thejourney.
Change management were changemanagers and leaders scrabbling
around after the horse hadalready bolted, and so it showed
that we can change even when wethink that we can't.

(43:18):
And I worked on some reallygreat projects as a result of
that.
For example, worked in thejustice courts in Canberra who
were redoing their premises andthey hadn't really considered
running online tribunals becausethey didn't think that was
possible.
Anyway, they ran onlinetribunals in COVID, so after

(43:41):
that they went.
There were massive benefitsfrom here.
We're now going to go back andrefit and we're going to do that
and we're going to do onlinetribunals, but we're going to
change, manage that.
So it proved that the undoablecan be done, the unthinkable
becomes reality.
But I don't think that therewas much change management

(44:02):
around that.
There are change lessons, but achange manager maybe was
sweeping up, but most of thetime not scrabbling around
trying to get people to pay playonline bingo and, you know, ask
them what sandwich they were.
All of the things that we areknown for, that we're ridiculed.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
For it's funny because we'll look back in years
to come about those things andwe're like do you remember we
used to do a friday night quiz.
It's like why did you do that?
it's like yeah all those kind ofthings, but um yeah yeah, no, I
hear you, I think one thing Isay I I think it definitely
accelerated um, not necessarilychange, but you know a number of
initiatives that that, yeah, itcould probably wouldn't have

(44:44):
happened as quick as they did.
Um, anyways, I always rememberyou talk about change management
failures.
I can remember this there was auniversity I was working with
at the time.
They was like you know thatTeams thing you've been talking
about, can we?

Speaker 2 (44:57):
have it for the last two years.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
Can we have it now Because we can't do any work.
And so I can remember doingthis like we was doing this
training and it was like rapidtraining and, and it was like
rapid training, and I don't knowif you've ever trained
educators in the past.
Don't do it right, because theyjust it's the worst thing you
can possibly do.
It's like cheating a bus driverhow to drive a bus, right, um.
But I can just remember thisone guy, uh, um, like literally

(45:20):
in the chat, the public chat,going call this guy likes to
talk a lot, doesn't he?
Not really?
But that, but not realizing Icould actually see what he was.
He was saying I was like, oh,thanks for that, steve.
And he was like, oh, can yousee this?
I was like, yeah, we can, butno, thanks thanks for.
On the next note, let's showyou how to use chat yeah, but um

(45:40):
, so we've got the fallout fromthat.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
I am now still getting.
I am getting people,organizations, that say, you
know, well, we're all usingTeams, but we don't think that
we're using Teams in the waythat we should be.
I still, I am now getting andthis is crazy, and I think this
also is an interestingdiscussion as we go into the

(46:03):
co-pilot AI thing, I am stilldoing introduction to Office 365
.
Okay, what are the componentsof Office 365?
And I'm still explaining topeople what it means to sync
into the cloud.
What does it mean?
How do you collaborate?
Can you?
You know this thing?
There are so many people thatare still confused between

(46:25):
SharePoint, onedrive, teams,filing.
How do we sync?
What do you mean?
I can connect to it there andnot on there.
How's it on my phone?
How does it know that?
I've been browsing A lot ofthis technology.
That was when was that rolledout?
That would be 2018, 19,.
Office 365, collaborativelearning there and I did a lift

(46:48):
and shift there for the star,where they just threw in
OneDrive.
No training, no training forOffice 365 collaboration.
Just use OneDrive.
Nobody was shown how to syncfiles and all of that.
And I'm now getting asked now,which is five years later.
You know the stuff that we'vebeen using for five years, which

(47:08):
is five years later.
You know the stuff that we'vebeen using for five years.
Can we have some training onhow we're supposed to be using
it?
And going into the conversationabout co-pilot, there's a lot of
stuff that our digitalilliteracy will be highlighted.
What I spoke about it earlier,where the co-pilot trainer will
say and, of course, in order foryour uh, for the, for your

(47:30):
co-pilot to talk to excel, youwill need to put your
information in a data table andthen they'll move on and you've
got a whole room of people goingwhat the hell is a data table?
And this is going to happenagain and again and again that
there will be an assumption thatpeople know how to use things
that enable the co-pilot Likeagain, creating your co-pilot

(47:53):
for SharePoint, you've got toput it in a SharePoint.
Well, they don't realize thatyour OneDrive is a SharePoint
and your Teams is actually aSharePoint, and you know there
will be gaps, that people willnot be able to adopt the AI
because they have got thingsmissing.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
Yeah, and I think it's I spoke about this at the
conference a few weeks ago thatall of the things we've been
talking about as because I guessyou know it's change management
by itself, I guess the thingsthat I've been talking- about
and.
I jest with you right, but allthe things we talk about, about
good information, managementpermissions, training, like
literally, you know, that hasn'treally changed in the last 20

(48:32):
years, 30 years since we did.
What's changed is the way we doit right and so, but, um, but,
yeah, I agree with you 100, Ithink you know there's, there's,
there's a lot of stuff that gotpushed out, um, and whether it
was a lift and shift, whether itwas budget, whether it was
covid, whatever, where we don'thave.
And, yeah, interesting, my wifestarted with uh, uh, you know a
big hotel group recently whowho use, uh, you know viva

(48:53):
connections and sharepoint, andshe's like god, this bloody
sharepoint, how do I?
Yeah, she's like, good job I'vegot a husband who knows how to
use it.
But when I explained to her, shesaid but why is it on my phone
and not on there?
And I said, oh, it's just there, it's in a different place.
And but yeah, you have to bringpeople along for the journey,
right?
Yeah, so so you touched on aithere sharon and co-pilot,
obviously, which is close toboth our hearts.

(49:14):
Um, how do you think ai isgoing to change change
management, if anything?

Speaker 2 (49:21):
um, well, I think that there are four things okay.
So number one ai in whateverwhether it's co-pilot, chat, gpt
or the lack of co-pilot and thelack of chat, gpt or anything
else will be part of projectsgoing forward.
So I'm working with a radiologycompany that is doing AI for

(49:44):
online bookings.
They're checking x-rays andthings with.
They're doing digitaltranscriptions here.
So, as a change manager, I needto be across AI because my
projects are using AI.
So there's one thing there Thenwe will have.
So it's the literacy, theunderstanding of the basics to
know, well, what does you know?
What's an LLM, what'sgenerative AI?

(50:06):
You have to have a basiccompetency to understand the
direction and the impact and theconstraints and the risks of
the project that you're workingon.
Then there will be a lot ofchange managers that will
actually be rolling out,co-pilot or not, as the case may
be.
I've got quite a few peoplefrom my audience, from my change
superhero audience, say we'vegot co-pilot but we weren't

(50:28):
given any training.
They just put it on ourdesktops and we don't know what
to do with it.
So there should be I hope thatthere will be a raft of change
managers or learningprofessionals enabling well,
actually I hope they all hire meand you to come in and talk to
them about it.
But there will be a rolloutthere and that needs to be

(50:48):
continuous, because I'm looking,as probably you are, all the
time.
I'm looking at videos of otherpeople creating content about
Copilot.
It's already out of date.
They only made it six monthsago and it's out of date already
and I'm looking for things andit's moved and everything.
So a lot of stuff is going tohappen really fast there.
So, in existing projects actualco-pilot then the change

(51:11):
manager, too, will have such ajob to play for the terrified,
for those people who are scaredfor that bloke that you were
talking about, the ones to stayon email and not go onto Teams

(51:31):
and not go on to teams he'sgoing to say oh, ai, aliens same
word, isn't it?
So we've got a responsibilityas well to calm the farm about
it.
And there's all of thisspeculation about what it can
and can't do and a lot of thestuff that people think is AI.
It's not actually AI, so it'sjust a process.
So that's the third thing.
And then the last thing is as achange manager, as a change

(51:53):
manager ourselves, how can ithelp us to become more
productive.
I'm not finding it's reallysaving me any time.
It's allowing me to dig deeper.
It's allowing me to explorefurther.
It's allowing me to look atthings that perhaps would not be
on my horizon.
So I'll go into Copilot andI'll say to it can you write me
an email for the new CIO tointroduce himself to the project

(52:19):
?
He's come from this area.
I'll say can you write it?
And sometimes it's absoluteshit and I'll just completely
rewrite it.
But then you regenerate and yougo.
Well, I don't like that, but Idid like that bit there.
So by the time you've gonethrough all of those seven
iterations, could I have justwritten it myself?
Possibly, but maybe there was anugget in there that I hadn't

(52:40):
considered.
So it doesn't save me time, butI think it's a little bit like
for me.
It's a belt and braces approachwhere I go give me, give me 10
benefit.
Let's just say that I have goteight benefits for rolling out
my erp.
I'll ask chat, gpt or co-pilotgive me 12 benefits for an erp

(53:01):
implementation.
And then there could be fourthat I didn't have.
There could be eight that Ididn't have.
Sometimes it duplicates themand you've got nothing that you
know, but it allows me to, tocheck, to double check, almost
as if I'm going oi Lee, do youmiss any benefits here?
I can go.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
Oi, co-pilot yeah, and I think, like for for me,
the um personally, as you say,look, I'm not.
I know my is right.
Attention to detail is not oneof my my strengths right um,
likewise spelling and grammar.
I used to get you know allsorts of where did you go?
do you go to green jewel?
Not all this sort of like fromthe brits that I used to work

(53:39):
with in uh, in new zealand, butyeah, I guess.
So for me that kind of that'shelpful.
I'm not like dyslexic, I'm justlazy right, but um, yeah, so
that's, it's good for that it'screative.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
Yeah, it's create.
Our brains work differently.
We're not detailed.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
With creative people, it's like next thing, the
second piece I think is reallyso and I've used it literally in
the last 48 hours is blanksheet of paper, tasks, as I call
them.
So, um, so, you know, big pieceof work, work at the moment,
big, big, high profile client.
They're like, um, we've goneand done all this assessment
work.

(54:12):
I'm like great, get it intoSharePoint lists and blah, blah,
blah, we can use Power BI.
So that's all great.
By the way, we've got lots andlots of words, right, how do we
put those words into some sortof rapport or findings, where
it's going to show insights,it's going to show challenges,
key risk, etc.
Right, and, and that's wherewhat it's made for, right,
because I wouldn't say I want toalmost wonder if there's a

(54:33):
medium language model.
There's, it's not like a s,it's not a large language module
, it's probably more of uscloser to small, right, but but
that's, I guess, the bit where,right, we've got to write this
report.
How do we know what reportsshould include, like this, you
know what subject, headings andso, but, um, but that's been.
That's probably two weeks ofwork straight away there, right,

(54:53):
which you know, as consultantswe won't charge for that anymore
.
But you know, the reality isit's kind of sped the process up
.
But yeah, I hear what you'resaying though I.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
I think, though you know I I did.
I used chat gpt rather thancopilot because I didn't.
I didn't have it enabled at thetime, but I needed to write a
test plan, the outline for atest plan.
That's not my area.
I mean, I've dealt withorganizations.
I know what happens in a testplan, but that's not a change
manager's job.
But they said, well, look, canyou come up with a framework?

(55:23):
So go into chat GPT and I go,what do you have in a test plan?
And I look at it and I think,well, that's rubbish, I wouldn't
have that.
I wouldn't have that.
And then you go, I would havethat, but I need to split that
into three more sections.
I need you to dig deeper intothat one.
Can you expand that?
Get rid of that one.
You've duplicated that one.
It's almost like throwing jellyat a wall and seeing what

(55:48):
sticks.
There's a load of stuff stuckon the wall.
You've now got to go and getrid of some of the stuff that
shouldn't be there.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
Right, okay.
So, sharon, one of the things Ialso think is going to be a big
opportunity for a lot oforganizations is custom
co-pilots.
So where they start to create,you know co-pilots that are
specific to the organization,whether it's pointing at, you
know policies, manuals, guides,their organizational data, their
customer data, and you askquestions from it, and so, yeah,

(56:16):
have you seen much happening inthat space yourself?

Speaker 2 (56:18):
I?
Um, not yet.
All I've done is I've watchedour mutual uh, friend, lisa,
doing some of her videos and, um, I saw a couple of things at
the conference.
I think the challenge there isthat most people will not know,
they will have no idea that it'spossible.
It will be a light bulb momentthat somebody has, in five years
time, going what, what?

(56:39):
When did they roll this out?
And you're going.
It's been out for five years andthere's a general awareness and
the challenge that you've gotthere is that the person who
needs to know this, which couldbe the change manager right,
this is where the change managerhas to say you know that I'm
pushing to have a single sourceof truth that's available and

(57:00):
updated all the time, ie aSharePoint instead of quick
reference guides.
That's still an uphill battle,but that same conversation is
now going to go and we can havea bot, and what the change
manager responsibility is hereis this stealth thing, because
when you go in, you're new on aproject and you go okay, I'm

(57:22):
coming in with all of my unicorndust, we're going to have this,
we're going to have playbooks,we're going to have an app,
we're going to have this, we'regoing to have playbooks, we're
going to have an app, we'regoing to have this, we're going
to put it on a SharePoint.
And they go whoa, hang on aminute, hang on a minute.
We just wanted you to bring inthe muffins on the go-live date.
The change manager has to thinkabout how they drive adoption

(57:49):
and do the change management bystealth, and the way that I do
this is that whatever they'veasked for, you do that first.
So if they'll say, sharon, canyou come in and create us some
PDFs?
And you create them a fewbeautiful but entirely adequate
PDFs and then you go by the way,did you know that?
What I could do instead here isI could put this on SharePoint,

(58:10):
because for most people,sharepoint is still a document
store.
So when you show them aSharePoint front end with a menu
and apps and things, they gowhat sorcery is this?
What's?

Speaker 1 (58:20):
that?
What's that yeah?

Speaker 2 (58:24):
Because they have no idea.
And then you also explain andyou have to be solving a problem
.
So you have to say do you knowwhat?
There's PDFs that I've justcreated.
Most of your people are goingto read them on their phone and
we've created A4 documents.
Do you know how difficult it isfor people to read an A4
document on your phone?
If we put it on SharePoint, itwill reformat itself for whether

(58:46):
they're working on a widescreenor a tablet or you know.
So you have to think about theproblems that you're solving and
, uh, do you have to quite oftenjust give them a snippet of the
solution and then you have tomake them think that it's their
idea.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
Like, like, like children, yes, Um so.
Sharon, before we come to theend of our uh, I've loved this
chat, by the way.
I've come to end of our chat.
Um, obviously a lot of businessexecutives listen to this and
there's probably a few thinkingoh my god, I've kind of got
change management completelywrong.
What?

Speaker 2 (59:22):
would you say?

Speaker 1 (59:23):
the three things are in 2024 that you need to think
about from a change manager ifyou're doing a kind of project
of any size.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
Change management is actually mostly common sense.
There's not much that we dothat isn't blatantly obvious.
The challenge is that withoutthe dedicated change manager,
everybody else is too busy doingtheir job.
The change manager's job is togo hang on a minute.
Have we thought about this fromthe customer's perspective?

(59:55):
Have we even thought about whoour customers are?
Because you think that that'syour customer, let me tell you
we've got seven more customersthan you thought that you had.
And then it's not rocketscience.
Make sure that you're solvingthe problems.
Make sure that you are reallyclearly articulating the
benefits and that you'remeasuring them.
I think if I had to say onething about everybody's a change

(01:00:19):
manager everybody is a changemanager is make sure that
whatever you do drives actionsafterwards, because we don't
want to do stuff and have peoplego well, so what?
I watched this and now I am ableto.
I went to this and now I'vechanged my mind about I listened

(01:00:42):
to this and now I'm aware thatI have to.
We need to make sure that allof the change activities that we
do, that anybody does drivesaction, because we've got a lot
of money for Old Rope, we've gotpeople doing a really in-depth
stakeholder analysis and impactassessment and creating share

(01:01:02):
points with multicolored RAGstatuses, and I look at it and I
go that's lovely what you cando with it.
Well, if every everybody'sgoing to do the same training
course, what was the point ofsurveying them and asking them
what type of training coursethat they would like to do and
what their gaps were, ifeverybody's going to do the same
compliance module?

(01:01:22):
So I think that if I could justsay to one one thing do things
that drive actions and that youcan measure yep, and it's not
all about the cake at the end ofthe launch project, right?

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
okay, sharon, listen, I've really enjoyed talking to
you, uh, today and you know,over the last few weeks and get
to know you and what you're allabout and definitely have
changed my opinion on changemanagement as well.
So I think I'm definitely aconvert and I think you're doing
a fantastic job in thecommunity kind of explaining,
kind of how all this stuff worksand things to think about.

(01:02:01):
So anyone listening wants tomaybe find out who you are, get
a hold of you.
What's the best way to do that?

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Changesuperherocomau, but I am all over linkedin, all
over linkedin um with a blendof technology enablement to
change I that the main, my mainsuperpower, is saying to change
managers.
You guys know what you need todo.
I am going to help you achieveit with the technology at your
fingertips and you're going tothen cascade that throughout the

(01:02:33):
organization, which is veryexciting about the ability that
I've got or the opportunity thatI've got to do that with AI.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
Yeah, and I agree with you.
I think you know there's a lotof people who are probably
charlatans in this space thatyou know aren't really doing
proper change management.
So yeah, I think it'd be.
I highly advise anyone that'sinterested to get in touch with
you and you can put them on thestraight and narrow, as we used
to say in London.

Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
Yeah, yeah.
There's a little place on mywebsite that they can go to,
they can sign up and they canget into my calendar for a
change chat.

Speaker 1 (01:03:03):
So I love a chat Love a chat Can have a change chat.
All right, Sharon, thanks foryour time.
Have a good week and lookforward to staying in touch.

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
Over the next few weeks.
Cheers.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
Cool, see ya.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
So that's another great episode, done and dusted,
as always.
I'd love to hear from you ifyou know anyone that's got a
really good story to tell abouthow they are or not living a
productive life, to tell abouthow they are or not living a
productive life.
If you want to get in touchwith me, please do so by my
website, wwwleestevensco.
That's wwwleestevensco.
You can email me, lee atleestevensco, or get in touch on

(01:03:41):
LinkedIn, which is where I alsohang out.
In the meantime, have a goodweek.