Mastering Emotional Fitness with Joe Pane

Ready to unlock the secrets to emotional resilience and a fulfilling life? Join us as we feature Joe Pane, an emotional fitness and resilience coach, who shares his compelling journey from Melbourne, Australia, through academia and the corporate world, eventually finding his true calling in personal development. Joe opens up about his diverse experiences, including a revealing look at work-related fatalities and the surprising transition to real estate sales that ignited his passion for emotional well-being.

Discover actionable strategies and transformative insights on mastering your mind through mindfulness, meditation, and emotional fitness. Joe and I discuss the delicate balance between ambition and meaningful work, the life-changing impact of gratitude and empathy, and the critical importance of maintaining autonomy in your professional life. You’ll learn about Joe's five core principles for emotional well-being, which are designed to help you navigate life's uncertainties with confidence and reduce sensitivity to external judgments.

Explore deep concepts like emotional flexibility, the need for significance, and the universal fears that can hinder your growth. Joe shares powerful anecdotes that illustrate how different interpretations of the same situation can lead to vastly different emotional responses. You’ll also gain valuable perspectives on the role of maturity in embracing emotional fitness principles and hear about upcoming resources like the Uncertainty Mastery Boot Camp. Don't miss this enriching conversation packed with insights to enhance your emotional resilience and overall well-being.

Hear how some of Australasia's most interesting and successful people are utilising People, Technology and Processes to live a productive life.

For more information on Lee Stevens visit www.leestevens.co

Sponsored by workforcery.com

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Time and Motion podcast with me, your
host, lee Stevens.
For over 25 years, I've workedwith businesses all over the
world to improve the technologyand the people within them.
In this podcast, I share someof my experiences and I chat to
guests who generously sharetheir stories of how to or, in
some cases, how not to live aproductive life.
I hope you enjoy the show.

(00:28):
So, emotional fitness andemotional resilience they're two
phrases we've heard quite a bitabout in recent years, and
professional development isanother quite a bit about in
recent years, and professionaldevelopment is another one we've
heard in recent years.
So how are you constantlystriving and achieving for those

(00:51):
goals and those mountains thatwe always aim for?
But that comes at a cost, andat what cost?
And how are we meant to beproductive and the best version
of ourself if we've got allthese emotions and all these
things going on in our mind thatdon't make us happy, let's be
honest.
So I caught up with Joe Parney,who's an emotional fitness and
emotional resilience coach, andhe talks about his five core

(01:13):
principles that you can workthrough individually or as a
group to try and achieveemotional fitness and emotional
happiness as well.
So really good show.
Really enjoyed this one On withthe show Joe Parney.
Good morning G'day Lee.
How are you?
I'm very well.
Welcome to the Time of Motionpodcast.
Thank you so much for coming on, I'm so glad you were able to

(01:35):
Pleasure to be invited.
Yeah, I was so glad we were ableto get this sorted.
So, yeah, really, reallypleased that you were able to
come to the show.
So, Joe, let's get into it.
Just tell us a bit about you,your background and, yeah, where
you grew up and, yeah, what wasearly life like for you.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, born and bred in Melbourne, in Victoria,
australia.
Pretty much a very normalupbringing.
I've got one sister who's twoyears younger and, uh, both
parents uh, um, very solid sortof family upbringing.
My father was a business owner.
He was a car mechanic, but heran a mechanic business, if that

(02:13):
makes sense.
Um and uh, so a lot ofstability probably, uh, in the
early days were over over, um,what's the word?
When you were when, when yourfamily protects you too much?
There's a word for that?

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Wrapped in cotton wool.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
I think we used to say yeah something like that,
and we were definitely wrappedin cotton wool for a long time.
I'm third world, a third world,third generation Italian.
So the Italian, the originalItalian sort of approach is very
much of protection andshielding you from the world
itself, which is quite ludicrousbecause I had to catch up on
all of that when I was in mylate 20s, early 30s.

(02:50):
Catch up on the real world bytravelling and going overseas
for the first time.
We boarded a plane to gooverseas for the first time when
I was 30 years old because ofthat overprotection.
But look, the overprotectionalso shielded me from the dark
side of society, and you knowdrugs, alcohol, all those awful
things, and so I had a very safeupbringing.

(03:12):
I was just very blessed in thesense I had a handful of good
friends and went to a goodschool, and so nothing terribly
exciting except healthy andstable.
They're the two key words formy first sort of, you know, 10
or 15, 20 years of life.
And one thing I always wasobserving, though, was, you know

(03:34):
, the certainty and the safetythat my dad brought to our
family as a business owner,because he was always seemingly
in charge.
I'm sure he had his lows andhis highs, but I never saw those
.
We were never exposed to any ofthat.
We were never exposed to anyarguments that my mum and dad
had so well shieldedly.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
So which area did you grow up, joe?
Sorry, which area did you growup in?
In Melbourne, in Melbourne,victoria.
Okay, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah,yeah, yeah, okay, and so went to
university early.
Job yeah, yeah, yeah, so I didthe whole traditional education.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
I went to uni, graduated with majors in
sociology, psychology, didpostgraduate studies in
occupational health.
From there that was in the 90s,and then from there I was lucky
enough to land a contractworking as a.
Well, I was actually working asa researcher for a federal
government departmentresearching work-related

(04:35):
fatalities, and that was myfirst direct exposure to real
life in the sense of death,because to do that job we had to
undergo some very specializedtraining, being exposed to death
itself.
We were also exposed to bodiesand real-life situations of
people dying in the mostextraordinary ways and accidents

(04:58):
and a whole bunch of things.
So it was ironic, lee, becauseI went from this safe cocoon to
oh my God, look at this.
And so that was a veryemotionally precarious time for
six months that I was in thatcontract and then the contract
ended and that was a blessing.

(05:19):
And from there I got my firstcorporate job working at Ford
Motor Company as arehabilitation counsellor where
I got to apply my you know myocc health studies and
psychology studies, et cetera.
And that was only for two and ahalf years because it was a
very toxic, awful environment,complex environment,

(05:40):
multi-agended environment,union-driven manufacturing
industry, multiple agendas.
It was just awful.
And then for those two and ahalf years I was just
experiencing hell and I thought,gee, I invested four years of
my life at uni to qualify forsomething like this and yet it
just wasn't for me.
So I left that and went intothe world of business,

(06:05):
specifically in real estatesales.
Okay, yeah, and I spent sevenyears working for a business
that was run by a father and sonand beautiful people, great
culture, great training.
It was my first foray intopersonal development and sales
training and got exposed topeople like Zig Ziglar and Jim

(06:27):
Rowan and all these classics,and I also learned what this
business of cold calling was allabout, because I didn't even
know those two words existed inthat order, right let alone.
So for 15 months I door knockedand made cold phone calls to
build my database, and thatcertainly boosted my personal

(06:48):
relationship with uncertaintybeautifully, because you have to
learn how to think in your feet.
You literally don't know what'sgoing to happen on the next
door that you're going to be on.
It was quite a remarkable timein my life in terms of a growth
spurt emotionally and skill-wiseand life-wise.
Growth spurt emotionally andskill-wise and life-wise.

(07:09):
And yeah, and then I spentseven years working there and I
absolutely loved five of thoseyears, like I was really
enjoying it.
And then I began to sort of losemy way, get a bit sort of
disengaged with the repetitionof it all and I took a
sabbatical in the early 2000sfor about a year, a year and a
bit and in that time I went andspent a lot of time doing silent
residential meditation retreatsthat would last for seven days,

(07:32):
did that multiple times.
I did vision quests, I did lotsof experiential there's no drugs
involved but lots ofexperiential meditation retreats
with people, the type of peoplethat I wasn't exposed to before
and that was fundamental in thecreation, I guess, of my model

(07:54):
of the world.
And then I ran out of money andI had to go back.
So I went back to the realestate job, but it was like
trying to put the toothpasteback into the bottle.
I just didn't belong thereanymore.
And then I thought you knowwhat I want?
To create my own business whereI can help people with the
stuff that I learned in mysabbatical about how to gain a

(08:15):
peace of mind, how to navigatethe uncertainties of life, how
to make decisions, how to be along-term thinker, how to manage
money all these fundamentalthings that I learned in that
time, and in 2006, I started mytraining business.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
So I actually think you was probably a bit ahead of
your time because you mentionedthose phrases about meditation
and mindfulness and beinggrateful for what we have and
all those kind of cool stuff.
To be fair, I feel that's kindof just part of modern language
now in business, like everyone'sactually okay with that,
everyone's okay with that.
Probably not in 2002, 2004,though, which is it sounds like.

(08:54):
So you're probably a little bitahead of your time and you're
probably pretty pleased to seethat a lot of those very good
principles have come into kindof the mainstream, I would guess
.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
It's fantastic.
I mean, look, we can'texperience anything outside of
our mind.
I mean, all we have is our mindor our perception, and for a
lot of people, their mind is outof control.
You know they're slaves torandom thought systems that can
drive you crazy.
So you know, understanding thenature of that, whether it's

(09:23):
through mindfulness, whether itnature of that, whether it's
through mindfulness, whetherit's through meditation, whether
it's through the work that I doin emotional fitness, you know
there are a lot of roads to Rome, as they say, and whatever it
is, it's about learning how tomanage your thought systems or
your mind.
So you have your own version ofpeace and clarity and joy and

(09:45):
fulfillment, and all thesethings that you know seem to
matter a lot.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah, and I am a big fan of the Resilience Project,
which I read a few.
I don't know if you know that.
So it's gratitude, empathy andmindfulness, where they
essentially be happy with whatyou've got.
You know, be in the moment, andyeah, and actually just a bit
of empathy as well.
I'd be human, so I think thatone was a bit of a game changer

(10:11):
for me.
But I think it's like you know,in a few of the books now they
say it's just health.
Right, it's not even mentalhealth, it's actually just
looking after yourself in allyou know, whether it's physical
fitness, mental fitness, youknow, just, just, you know, I, I
think we, um, I I'm reallypleased that we actually talk
about this stuff, knowing, youknow, quite openly now, as men,
as business owners, as humans.
So, uh, yeah, great to hear so.

(10:33):
So you obviously worked incorporate, worked in real estate
, which is interesting to hearand, um, yeah, I'd be keen to
know at what point did you makethe leap from real estate agent
to emotional resilience coach?
So how'd you get there, whichI'm sure a lot of people yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
So, um, it was.
It was really after thesabbatical, because, um, so what
happened was I was in the realestate space, loved the
challenge, loved the making ofthe money.
I loved the accolades and theyou know, rewards, awards, et
cetera, you know, the buying ofgood, cool things.
It was fantastic.
And I, just after about five,six years, all the things that

(11:12):
were exciting me just didn'tseem to excite me anymore and I
didn't know what was going onand I had no idea that what I
was actually doing was.
You know, like all of us, atsome point we evolved from the
ambition-driven world to themeaning-driven world, and it's a
part of the work that I dothese days.
And so, by going on, thatsabbatical was probably the best

(11:33):
thing I could have done,because it was like a massive
pause button on my life where Icould explore these alternative
experiences.
And so, really, even duringthat sabbaticalical, I had no
idea where I was heading.
And then, when I went back tothe old workplace, it was
obvious I didn't belong thereanymore.
And then what happened wasliterally at lunchtime on one of

(11:57):
the one of those days, I wasback in my old job, because I
lasted about nine or ten monthsin that old job after the
sabbatical, and I was sittingunder a tree literally having
lunch in a the sabbatical, and Iwas sitting under a tree
literally having lunch in a park, which I never did.
And I was reading this magazineand there was an advertisement
on how to create your ownpersonal development business
which I couldn't believe evenexisted.
It's like a life coachingpractice and I thought what is

(12:20):
that?
And I went to an informationevening.
They were really good.
They answered all my questions.
I gained a lot of clarityaround what it was and I thought
, my God, this just feels likeit's right for me.
And the only thing that wasmissing for me really was having
a mentor who could teach me howto start a business, which,
fortunately, with that program,that person came with that
program and hence the beginningof it.

(12:44):
And also I was very keenly toget off the hamster wheel.
You know the hamster wheel of,you know, nine till five, which
is really, you know, seven tillsix or whatever time.
You know it's hours.
So I was keen to get off thehamster wheel.
I didn't want to be reportingto anyone.
I didn't want to be, you know,under somebody else's
responsibility.
You know I wanted autonomy andyou know research has shown that

(13:08):
.
You know, autonomy in one'srole is one of the most
significant contributors toone's fulfillment and
satisfaction in their businessor in their job.
I mean, you can have a job andhave autonomy, depending on the
maturity of your employer and usas people.
So I was desperately wantingthat because I didn't want to

(13:28):
have to be in the office at 6o'clock just to be bloody seen,
or I didn't want to be subjectto, like I was, you know,
reporting in my results everyweek or every month or every
quarter to justify my existence.
It's like bugger this.
So, of course, starting yourown business is not for everyone
, as I'm sure you know, lee,because of the uncertainty

(13:48):
that's in it.
You know we don't know.
Especially my first two and ahalf years I didn't even know
where my next $1,000 was comingfrom.
You know, I mean, let alone thenext $5,000 or $10,000.
So these days it's still thesame, but different.
It's now like where's the next50 or 100 coming from, but it's.

(14:12):
But I love that because I knowthat I can it.
Just I'm I'm 19 years into mybusiness, so it's like I know
how to make it work and uh.
But back then, when I firststarted I was I was afraid that
maybe I wasn't enough to do the,to start my own, my own
business.
So, um, that's the essence ofwhat drove me there.
So it was like a gradualbuildup of multiple experiences.
And then, seeing thisadvertisement, it was just sweet

(14:32):
, divine timing, because itspoke to me.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
So, joe, I have to ask this question because I'm
pretty straightforward, as mostpeople know me.
So life coaching, it's got abit of a stigma.
Let's be honest about it.
You know everyone knows thosekind of, you know stories, you
know about the life coaches andyou know there's a lot of kind
of myths around what that is, etcetera.
So you know any thoughts onthat in terms of you know what

(14:55):
life coaching is.
Yeah, no.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
I completely agree.
I've actually trained.
As part of my early on in mybusiness, I had a client where I
actually trained life coaches.
I've trained over 7 000 lifecoaches.
Um, your, your perception is,uh, is accurate, um, it's
accurate and it's not so.
It's accurate in the sense that, um, life coaching has a very

(15:21):
um, uh, what's the very flakysort of image, which I can
appreciate.
That's partly or significantlybecause it's not understood and
even today I don't think it'smisunderstood.
See life coach.
Those two words presuppose thatyou're an expert in life and
that you're here to give adviceon how to live.

(15:41):
It's not what life coaching isat all.
Life coaching, in fact, is notabout solving your problems.
It's about resolving yourthinking that created the
problems in the first place.
And when a life coach istrained properly in becoming
really what they should becalled is a mindset strategist.
I mean, really that's what theyare if trained properly.

(16:02):
And for me, when I did my lifecoaching training, you know our
teachers were very clean andcrisp with their message.
They said listen, you knowyou're not a life advisor,
You're learning.
I use the term thought systemsnow, as you heard me say earlier
, but you're learning how tolearn the patterns of one's

(16:26):
psychological construct, of howthey create their world, through
their mentation, through theirthought systems, through the
meaning they give things,through how they create their
beliefs, their values.
It's really getting in thepsychological background of how
someone creates and constructstheir perception of reality.
So when you get good at that,you can help anyone with
anything.
You don't have to be an expertin engineering or whatever their

(16:48):
role is.
You're an expert in how theythink.
So hence the reason why a coachdoesn't solve problems.
They solve the thinking, thecreator.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
And I think that you're on the money there
because you know I've usedcoaches at different stages of
my career, at different stagesin life for different reasons.
And one thing that was veryclear, and I think you know it
is good to see there isconsistency.
And you know a lot of them sayyou know you've got
psychologists and you've gotcoaches.
You know there's a thin line,sometimes there's a bit of a
gray area, but you know we'renot psychologists, you know

(17:21):
we're not psychologists.
That you know we're not goingto solve.
You know this.
If you've got trauma and you'vegot a lot of those issues going
on, you know we're not here,but what we do do is ask
questions.
And I think that's the onething I think has been great,
you know, from a consistencyperspective, because you know
it'd be quite honest, you know.
So I think that's good.
I think more people, I thinkcertainly more business people,

(17:44):
should use coaching, and youshould probably.
Yeah, that's my perspective.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
There's different approaches, lee.
I mean, you've got a mentor.
A mentor is different.
A mentor is someone who's gotspecific skill sets that you
want to tap into.
You've got, you know,psychologists have got different
specialties.
You've got counsellors that aredifferent.
Again, I mean counselors arebrilliant at solving the issue
of uh, you know, very freshtraumas, you know.

(18:10):
But once that person is readyto move on, genuinely ready to
move on from that trauma, I, I,I found coaching is very, very
powerful, um, but if you put the, the mentoring or the coaching
or the therapy or thepsychologist in the wrong part
of the timeline, it's not goingto work.
So it's about getting the rightskill set at the right time to

(18:30):
help you yeah, yeah, I agree 100.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
Um.
So one reason I wanted to getyou on the show was, uh, I think
it was ben that we had on theshow a few weeks ago and he's
and because you know, as amiddle-aged man, you know
probably every statistic you canimagine uh, sold a business,
migrated two kids.
You're probably like youratypical sort of person in some
ways and in some ways not.

(18:54):
But one of the things that Bensaid was around, you know, he
worked with you and heard aboutyou because you're very good at
helping people when they don'tknow what they want to do.
I'm sure, like a lot of peoplelistening, right, you know you
go through phases in your careerand you achieve success and you
go, yeah, so what?
And, like someone said to meonce, you're the kind of person

(19:15):
who climb a mountain and go,yeah, but there's another
mountain over there and you'renever actually truly happy with
what you've got.
And he talked about your fivecore principles, which I
obviously did my research, butjust want to for the listeners
listening, just want to talkabout those principles and what
they mean.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, so my area of work specializes in emotional
fitness.
Emotional fitness isessentially measured by the
quality of your relationshipwith uncertainty.
So the whole point of theemotional fitness frameworks is
about transforming yourrelationship with uncertainty.
And there whole point of theemotional fitness frameworks is
about transforming yourrelationship with uncertainty,
and there's different areas here.
There's five core principles,or five core focus areas that

(19:52):
I'll share with you now.
I just want to highlight, though, that uncertainty comes in so
many different forms it comesfrom.
There's micro and macro.
The micro uncertainty is youreveryday stuff, which can be as
simple as you know variety,adventure, doing something you
haven't done before, goingwatching a new movie you've
never heard of before, littlemicro things, and these aren't

(20:15):
really issues.
They're more joys.
Then you've got macrouncertainty at the other end of
the spectrum, which are, youknow, crisis points.
A relationship ending abusiness, beginning a career
coming to an abrupt halt, ahealth crisis, a money crisis
like these are full blown crisispoints that can really bug
people up.
So that's where the work reallyworks well.

(20:37):
So my five principles or focusareas really start to deal with
the micro and the macro.
So, starting at the macro,we've got what's known as the
first principle, which isfocusing on identity, is a focus
point.
And identity is the mostpowerful aspect of the human

(20:58):
condition, because identity iswhat we allow ourselves to be
defined by and what defines usowns us.
In other words, what defines usowns our psychological
landscape.
So, for example, if you and Iare defined by the results that
we're getting in our business orin our career development, then
when we have the inevitablelosses because there's wins and

(21:20):
losses is that those losses willbe taken profoundly personally.
And if I take my lossesprofoundly personally because
that's who I am, then I'm goingto not recover from that very
well or very quickly, whichmeans I'm not going to be able
to manage or navigate theuncertainties of my business.
I'll be ineffective at thatbecause I'll be so much in the

(21:41):
emotional doldrums trying to getover that loss.
So in my work I share how wecan shift our identity from our
roles to the character thatwe're becoming, to the people
that we're becoming, to the men,to the women that we're
becoming.
And that's a whole otherconversation We've probably
haven't got time to dive intointo.
But identity is very, verypowerful because we will also do

(22:03):
anything to remain consistentwith that identity.
So the point I want to make isthat most people define
themselves by some kind of rolethey have and they become
hypersensitized to those roles.
And what I mean by that is thatif someone attacks that role or
says something inappropriate orrude or you know, things aren't
working out well.

(22:24):
We're hypersensitive to all ofthat and we get triggered by all
of that.
So there's no need for that ifwe know how to shift our
identity from those roles to thecharacter or to the person that
we're becoming.
So that's the first principle.
If that makes sense, yep.
Then the second area is what Icall life stages, and life

(22:45):
stages is the journey that we'reall on, from the journey from
ambition to meaning.
The ambition-driven world isvery egocentric and very much
KPI-driven, metric-driven.
It's a comparison game to theoutside world.
We know how well we're doingthe ambition-driven world only
in reference to an externalreference.
Uh, kpi driven, metric driven,it's a, it's a comparison game
to the outside world.
We know how well we're doingthe ambition driven world only
in reference to an externalreference.
So, in other words, how am Idoing comparison to my

(23:06):
competition?
How am I going with my familyin comparison to other families?
How my kids doing comparison,other kids, all that kind of
stuff.
And in the ambition driven world, that's where all of the
anxiety and depression lives andthrives, because we're, you
know, we're suffering from thesehedonic hits.
You know where we buy somethingand get happy and then we go
back to where we were originallyemotionally and it's like it's

(23:28):
like a drug, literally.
Where in the ambition-drivenworld, how many metaphorical or
literal painkillers can you take?
I mean, it gets to a pointwhere no painkiller can cut it.
And it's the same with thebuying of material possessions,
et cetera.
Now, buying materialpossessions and buying a
high-quality item or a thing,nothing wrong with that as long
as it doesn't own you right.

(23:48):
So that's the ambition-drivenworld.
And then what happens is at somepoint we lose our sense of
direction, we disengage withwhat was once exciting and we
get lost and we experience somekind of crisis point and we
enter into what's known as themeaning-driven world.
The meaning-driven world ismore heart-centric.
Our values have changed.
Our priorities have changed.

(24:09):
What matters now is different.
We're closer to death than weare from birth.
We start thinking about lifedifferently.
We start realizing theimpermanence of everything.
We start becoming wiser.
Hopefully, we start becomingmore.
Our perception of the world hasevolved and changed.
We become curious about gee,what happens when I leave here,
when my body gets dropped and Imove on.

(24:30):
What happens?
It's a different psychology,and a great life is where we're
able to successfully integrateambition into meaning, which one
of the ways of doing that is byfinding a way of making money
in a meaningful way that suits,that aligns to your new values.
So we're all on that journey.
We're all on unique journeys,but from a life stages

(24:53):
perspective, we're all on thisjourney somehow, and everyone
will get to a point wherethey're somewhere stuck in this
revolving door between theambition and meaning-driven
world, and the work that I dothere helps people navigate
through that door into the otherside, so they can find that
life's not about getting happy,but life's about finding meaning

(25:13):
and fulfillment, and the waythat you do that is through
contribution and adding value toothers.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
So here's a question on that though, joe, which I'll
be really keen to to get youropinion on um.
I read a book called selfie uma few years ago and it talks
about how the reagan and thefatchy years I owe a lot because
at that time it was like youcan reach for the stars, you can
be whatever you want to be, youcan, you know, you can do
whatever you want to do.
Um, yeah, and I think it, and,and you know, we're both

(25:40):
children of that generationright where you know, you, you,
it wasn't a case of you don'thave to just be a bus driver,
which is nothing wrong withbeing a bus driver, but do you
know, I mean it was alwaysconstant reach, reach, reach.
And I kind of feel that thatwas in our generation, that was
kind of drummed into us, that weand you you mentioned it on
your real estate, you know thatprobably keep reaching, keep
going.
You know there's more, there'smore out there, there's a bigger

(26:02):
house, there's a faster car,there's a better country to go
and live in, and you end upbecoming a product of that, of
that kind of mindset and I, andI can remember, like my dad
saying to me, like saying youknow, not everyone not I think
he said there was somethingalong the lines but not everyone
can be a business leader.
You know the world needs busdrivers, the world needs
mechanics which he was a dieselfitter the world needs those

(26:22):
people because you know, noteveryone can be the.
You know the top, toppercentile, and I think I don't
know if your, your thoughts, aresaying I actually think we're
coming back to that sentimentnow that actually you know it's
okay to be middle of the roadand just under the radar and I
think the younger generationdefinitely feel that, because I
think you know we were justdefinitely reaching for the
stars.

(26:42):
But yeah, any thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (26:44):
Well, the current generation I've got 16-year-old
twin boys I mean their avenue towhatever success is for them,
there are roads that they cantake that never existed for you
and I.
For you and I, really, therewas just two roads.
It was uni or trade.
You know, um, in my world I wasnever the the word entrepreneur
, the entrepreneurship thatavenue didn't exist for me when

(27:05):
I was a kid, in my teens and 20s, it existed, but it wasn't
something that was spoken about.
It was like go to uni if youcan't work with your hands, go
and work with your mind and yourhead, and that's what I was
encouraged to do very stronglyand that's where I ended up.
But there's a lot of avenuestoday to you know.
Obviously, with the World WideWeb and the whole digital world

(27:27):
and where we're heading with,that provides opportunities that
are massive to the youngergeneration.
So you've got those roads.
The other thing to add to thatis that the chase for more it
doesn't matter whether it's inthe roads that my sons decide to
take or whatever I think it'sactually healthy to go down that
road and to discover foryourself that the road of more

(27:50):
it doesn't really end and itjust gets to a point where, with
a lack of clarity on whatenough is, um you, it's like
what I just said a few momentsago it is a drug that you need
more of to get the same hit andyou get to a point where it's
unsustainable.
So this is where I think, wheremy sons have been exposed to
say, my wife and I, that we'rewhere you know, we're very clear

(28:14):
on what enough is and we'revery clear on our priorities.
And you know, I spend more timeon my own than I do with
clients, versus back in the day,I was spending more time with
clients than I was on my own,and you know I was on my own,
whether I was literally bymyself or with my family or
whatever it might be.
So they're noticing well,they're brought up in that

(28:35):
environment, so they alreadyhave a different influence in
terms of how it's about workingsmart and efficiently rather
than just working hard in avoluminous sense, because my dad
worked 80 to 100 hour weeks fordecades, um, and uh,
unfortunately didn't manage hismoney well, so he didn't even

(28:56):
get rewarded for that afterwards, uh, which was, uh, quite sad.
But uh, you know and this isanother thing is that we're into
efficiency and effectivenessrather than voluminous hours, as
I just said, and and also thediscipline of managing uh, the
money coming in so you caninvest it, learn how to invest
it and where you need to investit, and all that kind of stuff.
So then the money looks afteryou.

(29:18):
In the final phase of life, youknow whatever phase you want to
call that, whether it's in your60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and so my
sons are learning that alreadyfrom now.
You know at the age of 16.
One's a spender, the otherone's a saver.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
So we'll see how that works out, but yeah, so I'm not
sure if I'm answering yourquestion, but no, I think it was
just as I say.
It was the there are.
We was definitely that firstgeneration where everyone could
own a business, and I talk aboutentrepreneur porn quite a lot
as well, which you knoweveryone's like oh, you should
have your own business, but noteveryone's built for that.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
It's not for everyone .
It's not for everyone, Lee, asyou know.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
No, exactly, yeah, I think it's been with all the TV
programs, the books, the podcast.
I think that's got a lot toanswer for because actually, you
know, I think nations needpeople that just want to.
You know, that's just happy.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
It's interesting, lee because something that I really
have got a strong view on isthat I think it's an absolute
urban myth that you can beanything.
It's not true.
You can't be anything.
You need to discover what isyour superpower and what is your
beauty within you that you justseem to shine at Now.
Within that world, you can beanything right.

(30:33):
But to say to someone, you canbe anything you want to be,
that's bullshit.
If I really would love to be aworld-class singer and I just
don't have the talent, oh,that's limiting belief.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
No, it's just a fucking fact yeah, yeah, and
this is what this selfie um bookyou know, uh talks about.
It says that a lot of thedepression and anxiety rates
have come from from thoseparents who are going yes, you
can be, you can be taylor, swift, you can be on stage, but
actually you probably don't havethe talent and you probably and
, and then what happens is isthat you know, you get built up

(31:04):
to this level of expectation andthen, when they realize that
actually that's not going tohappen, it's all just looking
down.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
People don't realize the micro probabilities of.
I mean, I'm an author right Now.
If I wanted to, you know, if Isaid to myself, because someone
said to me oh you can, you know,make money from your book and
you can be successful and youcan be famous.
I mean, if that was the driver,I would be in trouble, as 99%

(31:32):
of authors would be, because ofall the things that need to
happen and the probabilities ofthis happening and that
happening, and knowing the rightpeople and knowing how to
navigate the politics ofpublishing and knowing how to
navigate the marketing and themoney involved in getting
started in that, and all thepermutations and combinations
involved in someone being asuccessful author.
It's much more than just gee.

(31:54):
I'm really talented and reallygood, so therefore I should be
rich doing this.
It's like no, there's so muchthat you need to learn about how
to get rich around doing thatparticular thing and the
probabilities of that is lessthan one percent, literally less
than one percent, um and um.
You know, people, people needto realize that that's, that's
the way, the way it is yeah,okay, so back to your.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
Uh.
Five principles, so one wasidentity.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, so we covered the first two.
Yeah, one was identity.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
Two was your life stages.
So at different stages in lifeyou'll need and want different
things.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Number three Three is values.
So in my work I define a valueas our emotional compass.
So our emotional compass issomething that's very organic
and natural to us.
Our emotional compass directsus and influences all of our
decision-making, our choicepoints, our actions.
Our emotional compass alsodirects us toward deep desires

(32:46):
that we would love to experience.
So it's the realization, or theliving out of your deepest
desires.
So a deep desire of mine for along time has been running, and
I love running and I love thecommunity of running and I love
the adventure and the events andall the challenges that go with
that.
That's a deep desire and so anemotional compass points you

(33:08):
toward that, whether it's towarda musical ambition or a
creative or artistic orphilosophical, intellectual,
physical, whatever spiritual,whatever it might be for you.
And uh, so in in my work I saylisten when you, when you, when
you have clarity on what yourvalues are, because most people
don't know their values becausethey confuse their emotional

(33:29):
compass, values with their moralcompass.
It's two completely differentthings.
Yeah, um, a value is like yourfuel and, uh, your moral is your
temperature gauge.
The two different things, yourtemperature gauge, they're two
different things.
Your temperature gauge is notgoing to tell you when you're
running out of petrol.
So they're two completelydifferent things.
And so in the work that's inthe emotional fitness formula,

(33:50):
the five points, I teach peoplehow to gain clarity on what
their values actually are.
And values aren't just a list ofwords, it's more of a short
list of desires that need to beexpressed in your life through
activity, and I find that'sextremely satisfying.
So how that relates touncertainty is that when you're

(34:11):
going through a tough thing inyour life, when you've got
activities that you can dependon that bring you joy
effortlessly, that helps younavigate uncertainty.
So, in other words, when Ifirst started my business in
2006, it was my running thatsaved me from quitting, because
I was facing uncertainty.
I was doing things every weekthat I'd never done before, that

(34:33):
I didn't even know if I waseven capable of doing them, like
networking and meeting peopleand setting up things and doing
a whole bunch of stuff.
So my running gave me somethingto look forward to,
energetically, emotionally,psychologically.
So it was something I was doingfour or five times a week.
I was running with runningfriends.
It was an area of my life thatwas comforting, that was safe,

(34:53):
that was joyous.
So you have that as apsychological platform and that
means you can handle more of theuncertainty.
But if your week is completelywracked in uncertainty and
nothing else, you you'll burnout and you're going to implode.
So having clear values of whatyour deep desires actually are
and living out those deepdesires there's it just provides

(35:15):
you an energetic platform tohandle more of the unknown.
So that's the values part.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yeah, um yeah, and the fourth part, sorry.
So yeah, and there was a one ofyour videos I saw online, um,
and look, this isn't justrestricted to men, but you know,
as a man I can resonate withthis.
But you mentioned that menobviously kind of suffer of
those things a little bit more,because what tends to happen is
you, you look after everyonewhen but you don't end up
looking after yourself, youdon't get what you need in terms

(35:41):
of that emotional fuel and andI think you know that's a that's
a fair point I think a lot ofpeople will kind of, you know,
resonate with that, because youdo that's what you do, that you
look after your family, you lookafter everyone else, but you
don't actually look after numberone, and I think that was a
really good point I saw on oneof those videos yeah, well, I
think it's really important that, uh, you know it's?

Speaker 2 (35:59):
it's known as functional selfishness, where,
um, if you don't take time outto do something for the joy of
it, that brings you joy, thenthere's going to be less and
less and less and less of youavailable for your family or
your team or wherever you'regoing.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
And I think you know, it's not, it's not even just
not the man thing, it's whoeveris 10.
There are a lot of companiesthat tends to be the, you know,
the main, the main earner, theone going out and then money.
But yeah, I think you knowabsolutely, those people need to
look after themselves first andthen you can look after others
better, as someone said to me.
Okay, so that's your values, um, as you mentioned, slightly
different to your moral valuesat number four.
What's number four?

Speaker 2 (36:34):
number four is emotional flexibility.
So this is now getting moreinto the micro and everyday
uncertainties.
So we need to understand thatemotions don't respond to facts,
that emotions only respond tothe meaning that we're given the
facts, that emotions not all,but most emotions are fabricated
by our mind, by our thoughtsystem.

(36:54):
And this is important to knowbecause every day we face little
, micro, mini uncertainties,like, for example, this morning.
A classic example this morningwas um, you know, I've got a
very full, you know, october,november, with uh corporate
retreats and just flying arounddoing different workshops.
And uh, you know, there was aclient of mine that, um, uh has

(37:16):
been unclear with me when theyneed me for october to fly, fly
to Melbourne and do a thing.
And you know, and I was gettingnothing, I was getting crickets
like no responses.
Now the point I'm making iswhat does that mean?
So in other words in my mind,I'm fabricating and creating
emotions.
Now, if one of the ways, one ofthe roads I could have taken,

(37:37):
is oh, they don't want meanymore, they've rejected me, or
you know, go down that path.
Now that meaning is going toproduce an emotion of sadness,
rejection and even frustrationthat, for some people, could be
even anger.
It's completely fabricatedversus the more indifferent
interpretation.
So what I teach in EFF, theEmotional Fitness Formula, is

(38:00):
that there are three differentlevels of interpretation.
So what I teach in EFF, theemotional fitness formula, is
that there are three differentlevels of interpretation.
There's imagined, which iscompletely fabricated and made
up with no reference points,just completely made up, such as
the example I just gave you.
There's imagined level of truth.
There's also the second level,which is assumed level of truth,
which is more indifferent.
So I'm assuming that the womanis very, very busy, which she is
.
She finally got back to me andsaid hey, listen, apologies, I'm

(38:21):
back to back with meetings.
How about we talk thisafternoon?

Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yeah, we're good.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
So this has taken, you know, 48 hours, 72 hours to
do that.
So assumed level of truth isshe could be busy.
So my emotional state is goingto be different too.
Oh, they don't want me.
I knew it, you know, know I'mnot good enough or whatever,
right.
So?
So that's the differencebetween imagined level of truth
and assumed.
And then you've got, um, actualtruth, which is where you've
got no interpretation.

(38:45):
Um, and the way I manage thatis that if someone doesn't
respond to a call, um, I alsothink to myself well, hold on,
when have there been momentswhere you have not responded to
a call, where you're in themiddle of a podcast interview
and someone's just messaged youand you forgot about the message
, and then, four days later,it's like oh my god, I forgot
about lee.
He rang me four days ago andit's purely innocent.
So that's another way oflooking at it.
So the point I'm making isemotional flexibility is

(39:09):
extremely important to navigateeveryday uncertainties, because
the way that you experience yourworld, it's flavored in every
nook and cranny with emotion.
The emotion is what providesmeaning to the perception.
Without feeling, we don'treally know, there's no meaning.
So, and the point of the workis that this is how we fabricate

(39:31):
our emotions and this is how wecan change them if we want to,
and to remember that emotions donot respond to facts.
Emotions respond to the meaningthat we're giving.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
I think it's like a case of like, don't sweat the
small stuff, and I think it wasBarack Obama used to say.
You know, he never used to getinvolved in the small stuff.
It was basically he would onlycare about the stuff that he
could influence, and everythingelse he, kind of, you know, left
to other people, becauseotherwise you'd just be worrying
about everything.
Right.
But I think the other thing Iwould say as well is that, um,

(40:06):
like intuition, and you knowthat gut instinct as well
sometimes, though it does doesmean something.
So, like, I'm exactly the same.
So, you know, if someone doesn'tget back to me and says, oh,
you know, we want to do, we wantto do x, y and z, and then it
goes quiet and it's liketumbleweeds, you know, normally
you go well, this can't be apriority for them, so I'll move
on.
But all it means is I'm notactually sitting there stewing
and worrying about it, whereasprobably 20 years ago I would
have done.
It would have really annoyed me.
Whereas, okay, well, that's,you know, that's their problem,

(40:28):
not yours.
You know, just just move on.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Yeah it's funny, you know, lee, I had, I had a um, a
client the other day, a lady whoI um, who's in my program, my
mentor and my mentor and one ofmy coaching partners, and I said
she got in an inquiry to dosome work from this business and
they had a great phone call,great meeting, and it's been a
week and a half and she messagedme.

(40:50):
This is my client messaging mesaying how long does it normally
take for a business to get backto you in terms of whether
they're going to work with youor not?
And I just wanted to burst outlaughing.
It's like you're asking me howtall is a tree.
I mean, it's like you know itvaries from one day to never
responding to you ever.
So you know, I mean it's sofunny, but look emotional

(41:16):
flexibility is huge.
And you make a good point aboutgut instinct.
This is where I say mostemotions are fabricated not all
because some emotions are notthe area of fabrication.
They are actual, instinctual,wisdom-based, unconscious
reference points from our pastthat give us some feel in terms

(41:36):
of how to read the play withsomething, and they're not
fabricated.
That's different.
It's a different kind ofemotion, but the majority of the
emotion that most of us feelduring the day is absolutely
fabricated.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yeah, yeah, I hear you, okay.
So what's number five?

Speaker 2 (41:50):
And the fifth and final one is perspective, which
is really important, becauseperspective is, of course, our
worldview, it's our philosophyof life, it's our model of the
world and perspective.
You know, it's really importantfrom an emotional fitness
perspective that we have a cleanand healthy perspective,
because you're going to need aclean and healthy perspective to
lean on when things get tough,because when things get tough,

(42:13):
especially, the tougher they get, it's the more micro we get
caught in the drama and we needto get things into perspective
to navigate through that drama.
And if our perspective isunhealthy or messed up, then you
can't rely on thatpsychologically to navigate
through the forest ofuncertainty.
So we need to build a clean andhealthy perspective and the way
that you do that is to buildthe habit of gaining instant

(42:36):
access to gratitude andappreciation, because there's
always something to be gratefuland appreciative of and that's
how you clean your perspectiveup and um, and that's a very,
very handy, uh, psychologicaltool to have is a clean and
healthy perspective, because itreally does help when things get
uh, you know, you have yourtough days or tough weeks, etc
yeah, and I think, like a lot ofthis, um, I won't say theory,

(43:00):
but a lot of the principlesyou're talking about, I, I would
imagine, do come with maturityas well.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Right, because, yes, me as a 45 year old man, you
know you can appreciate all thethings you're talking about.
I'm not too certain at 23, 24,I'd be embracing some of these,
these, uh, these concepts, so,um, so I think your maturity
helps with that, as well, andthat's the reason why the 80 of
the people that are my clientsare between the ages of 40 and

(43:27):
60 yeah yeah, it's really that Ihave a 20, as you say you
become a little bit more, uh, alittle bit more humble, a little
bit more, um, realized, as yousay, you realize you're actually
closer to death than birth,right?
So, um, so, yeah, I suppose thatthat's just part of life, um,
okay, so the really good to hearabout those, those five core

(43:47):
principles, and then one anotherarea that I really liked you
talking about was, um, beingstarved of significance.
I think you know we've touchedon some of those points, so just
talk to me and the listenersabout what being starved of
significance actually means for,for humans.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
Yeah, well, there's two fundamental psychological
glues that keep all of ourrelationships together, the
relationships that are real,that matter, that uh are really
important to us.
Uh, those two glues are ourvalues and significance.
So what does that actually mean?
So, when we fall in love withsomeone, we don't fall in love

(44:24):
with them, we fall in love withtheir values and who they are as
people.
But we also gravitate to wheresignificance is at its richest.
So, first of all, significanceneeds to be understood for what
it is.
So significance means beingrespected.
Significance means being seen,being acknowledged, being
validated, being appreciated,being understood, being heard,

(44:45):
that you matter.
That's the construct of beingrespected, and so we will always
gravitate to the person that weare feeling the most most
richest of significance.
So so you can have a two peoplein a marriage, for example, or
in a long-term love relationship, where they're getting more
significance from another person, and if they're getting on a

(45:08):
consistent basis, and if they'refeeling more acknowledged and
seen and validated, et cetera,by another person, then this
person will override theirvalues and go and be with that
person.
And this is one of the reasonswhy people break up and
marriages end after all theseyears because their need for
significance has been metsomewhere else.
So that's one perspective onsignificance.

(45:28):
Being starved of significancemeans a lot of people in
Australia live their lifestarved of significance, meaning
that they're not getting enoughof that attention in a
high-quality, healthy way, orbeing respected or being
acknowledged through theirfamily or through their marriage
or through their friendships.

(45:48):
And so when someone is starvedof significance, they'll do
extreme things to regain thatattention.
And the most extreme of these,unfortunately, is when someone
you know threatens to end theirlife or threatens to do
something that will affect thepeople around them.
And a starvation ofsignificance is not the road,

(46:12):
but it's one road to why peopleend their life.
Think about it.
All we have to do is reverseengineer that.
If your life is rich insignificance, where you matter
and you're making a differenceand you're acknowledged and seen
and loved and it's going bothways, that person's never going
to want to end their life.
In fact, they don't want toeven think about life becoming

(46:33):
finished.
But when you take all that awayand you wonder whether anyone
actually cares and I'll give anexample of this in my personal
life, I've never been close tobeing suicidal or anything but
on a parallel universe which isnowhere near as deep as someone
who's contemplating ending it,but on a parallel universe, when

(46:55):
I worked at Ford Motor Companyas a rehabilitation counsel.
For those two and a half years,the sun's in an awkward angle,
the and my role had zero impact.
It was like throwing a pebbleagainst a brick wall, like no
one, the matter's none.
And I did an experiment one daywhere because the manufacturing

(47:17):
plant of Ford Motor Company inBroadmeadows in Victoria, where
they used to make this carcalled the Ford Falcon, was
massive, massive and it couldtake you hours literally to walk
around the entire thing likehours, like almost a whole three
quarters of a day.
So I did an experiment and fortwo days I went walkabout around

(47:38):
the manufacturing plant and Irealized, wow, whether I am here
or whether I am not, it makesno difference.
No one even noticed that I wasmissing.
I could actually stay home fortwo or three days and it would
take them a week to discover oh,where's that guy, where's Joe?
So I felt so insignificant, sostarved of significance

(48:00):
professionally, and so, becauseI was starved of significance,
that was my psychologicalmotivation to leave that place,
to then go and work in realestate where I wanted to work
with people who wanted to behelped.
I want help with selling myhouse.
I want to be part of a teamthat is, you know, we're all
facing the same direction andwe're all doing the same thing

(48:20):
and enjoying the experience ofthe sharing of that.
So I went from an environmentthat was starved of significance
, where I didn't mattergenuinely, to an environment
where I was rich in significancebecause I did matter.
And so what happens is, as Isaid earlier, we gravitate to a
significance that is richest.
So the number one reason whypeople leave an organization, a
team, a marriage, a community isbecause they feel that they're

(48:44):
invisible, is because they feelthat they're not getting the
need for significance met inthat environment.
And we need to remember thatthe need for significance it's
not a choice, it's a need, it'sa fundamental part of living is
that significance is the doorwayto connection.
So if you and I leave, ifthere's a giving of significance

(49:09):
both ways, where I feel valuedin your presence and you feel
valued in my presence, then thatflings open the door to
connection.
We have a connection.
But if, on the other hand, youor I, or both of us, would feel
disrespected or that thismatters none, then the
connection levels are virtuallyzero as well, or that this
matters none, then theconnection levels are virtually
zero as well.
So that's what I mean by when Isay, you know, most people, a

(49:34):
lot of people, I'll say, arestarved of that significance.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
And one thing I think is interesting as well just
listening to you talk there waslike friendships are probably a
big one at the moment.
I'm sure a lot of peoplelistening to this will kind of
resonate with, resonate withthis.
But you have a think about myparents and their friends.
It was, they were very muchabout what they could give.
So and then you know it's bestdish resilience project talks

(49:58):
about it's actually nicer togive.
You know you get more uh, youknow um stimulation, your brain
giving than you do receivingright and so.
But I always remember my momand my dad that they were very
given in their time, in their um.
You know whatever they could doto help someone out especially
my mom she would do.
It, would be family friends.
She was like she would I'mgoing to look after their kids,

(50:19):
I'm going to take so-and-so tothe hospital.
That was just who she was andum.
I just think in the currentclimate, current generation,
friendships have all become very, very selfish and wrapped up in
our own lives.
We don't actually do thatanymore.
We don't actually reach out.
So don't pick up the phone.
And I try and do it now like atleast once a week.

(50:39):
I just text three people everySunday night Hi mate, how you
doing.
And they're like why are youtexting me?
I'm like I'm saying justchecking, just checking in how
you doing, and it was just alittle you know technique.
Someone gave me a few years agolike and, and just that little
kind of you know emotional boostI get when I do that, because
you know that they're and it'snot you know, it doesn't take me
long and sometimes you have abit of back and forth, but it

(51:00):
means I'm looking out forsomeone else, right?
and then you know lee's lookingout and it doesn't doesn't like
make a big difference to me, butfor them they're like.
You know one guy who's like noone does that.
Why are you doing that?
I was like because, you know, Ijust want to know if you're
right and I think that was a bigthing for me.
And that is true.
If you can give, you know, giveyour time, give your attention,
then that makes a difference.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Well, here's a fundamental insight to add to
what you were just saying isimportant and uh, and that is I
don't remember who coined this,I just don't might be emerson or
thoreau, one of thosephilosophers, but um is that our
purpose in life can and onlywill be ever found in service to
others.
You won't find it anywhere elseyeah so we're hardwired as human

(51:41):
people, human in the humancondition to to serve, to
contribute.
And if we think about it,nature does that all the time.
I mean everything in nature.
The only reason, like I'mpointing out behind the screen
here because I've got thisbeautiful forest in front of me,
is that everything in natureexists only because it is
contributing to its environment.
The moment anything in naturestops contributing to its

(52:03):
environment, nature kills it off.
It has no purpose for it.
And it's the same in marriage,in businesses, in teams, in
organisations, in jobs, inanything in life is that if
you're not contributing, youwill die, a slow death or a fast
death, depending on the context.
So we will only ever findmeaning, fulfilment, purpose,

(52:25):
joy, a sense of peace when we'reactually contributing and
making a difference to otherpeople.
Um, and that can be anythingfrom walking down a supermarket
aisle acknowledging theexistence of a stranger with a
smile, uh, right through tohaving a full-blown coaching,
mentoring, training session withsomebody right.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
So yeah, my wife's very good at it as well, so I
noticed that she, you know shehas been on her own journey but
the last sort of couple yearssomeone go how you you know, in
a supermarket might be this, thecheckout operator, whatever
most people go.
You're right, yeah, but my wifepurpose.
She said, I'm fine, how's yourday been going?
Like purposely, how are youdoing?
Like looks them in the eye andyou and you can see like some of

(53:06):
them are like taking it, itback and like it's really good,
thank you, and like they justgets a lift.
So I think that you know thoselittle micro moments as well,
where in our day where we canjust make all that difference by
just actually being humanasking the question completely.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
Just on a contrary uh situation I was in.
I was in a what was?
I was in a bank or somethingthe other day, somewhere I can't
remember where We'll say a bank, it wasn't something like that
and the guy was doing oh, that'sright, I was getting my car
serviced and the guy behind thecounter was doing his admin
stuff getting my car in for aservice, whatever.
And he says to me what did youget up to on the weekend?

(53:43):
And I said, oh, I didn't hear athing.
He was just like oh, you knowthe way he responded.
I could have said I murderedfour people and I almost killed
seven, but not quite.
He just wouldn't have evenheard me.
And that's the contrary of whenpeople say what are you doing
on the weekend or how are youwhilst they're doing you?

Speaker 1 (54:00):
know menial tasks.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
And I had such a giggle on the inside about that,
and hence the reason why whatyou just shared about your wife
is so important because it's tothe contrary of what normally
happens out there, where peopleare on this automatic,
repetitious kind of mode.
It was just so funny, you know,I could have said anything, the
guy would have gone oh good onyou, yeah, and I actually think
she gets a boost from it as well.

Speaker 1 (54:22):
Right, because you know the response and you know,
just, you're just making adifference to people's day and I
think, like I say, I just thinkwe've all become very, very
selfish and unfortunately,there's a lot of people out
there now that just don'tactually see that as well.
Like they don't like they'revery taken in friendships and
relationships and, um, and theydon't actually stop to go.
Actually, you know, I want tocall lee, you know, to see how
he's doing.
No, no agenda, no reason, butthey just that's just,

(54:44):
unfortunately, life, um.
So I think that significancething really, you know, resonate
, resonate with me.
I think we could probably talkfor another hour about how you
deal with that, but I'll savethat for your workshops and your
books and stuff like that, forpeople to find out the answers,
um, okay, so you know, as wecome, come to the end of our
hour, um, just wondered ifthere's any kind of other big
trends that you're seeing,because you know, I would

(55:04):
imagine you deal with a lot ofbusiness owners, a lot of small
businesses and a lot ofexecutives, for example, who
obviously listen to the show,but from a personal productivity
sense, any kind of big trendsyou're seeing at the moment that
are kind of either negative orpositive, that those kind of
types of people can.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
Well, it's not so much trends, it's what's been
around for a long time.
And that is where I was talkingto a corporate lady this
morning and she came to one ofmy workshops and she said oh, I
found it really interesting howyou were sharing, how, when
we're in our roles, a lot ofpeople have a fear of being
found out or fear of not beingenough.
And she said that spoke to meso deeply because for so long I

(55:45):
felt that.
And she says to a certaindegree, I still feel that today,
feel that today.
And I said to her you know,what's fascinating about that is
that almost everyone around youis feeling the same thing, but
they think that it's exclusiveto them, that's only them that's
feeling that, and thereforethey're psychologically isolated
because, um, I, you know Ican't communicate that because,
look that, you know, lee lookslike he's got it all together
and and Joe looks like he's gotit, and all these people look

(56:06):
really good on the outside, buton the inside there's this
internal fear of being found out, fear of not being enough, the
fear of not belonging, the fearof not being loved.
These are universal fears weall have and so they've been
present forever.
If we were to talk trends.
I guess the only thing I couldadd to that is that it's become

(56:27):
more appropriate in 2024 than ithas been in decades, where you
have people like me coming toorganizations, where we break
open that egg and people go ohmy God, you're all the same.
We're actually all the same, andwhat happens is that when we
discover that we've all got thesame foibles, vulnerabilities
and fears within ourselves,guess what happens to

(56:48):
performance?
Performance goes up because nowwe're okay to fail forward and
just give it a go and take it tothe next level, whereas before,
if we're psychologicallyisolated with our own little
secret that I don't feel likeI'm enough and I'm the only one
that feels that way I'm going tobe very rigid in my energy and
hence it's going to affect myperformance.

(57:09):
I won't be able to go to mymaximum results or, you know,
work at my best.
So if that's a trend, I don'tknow, but to me, if we use the
word trend, it's more around,how many more organisations are
becoming more open to havingpeople like yourself and myself
in there where we can have thisconversation to facilitate out.

(57:31):
You know, all these innersecrets that really aren't
secrets, the universal umpatterns that once we're all
comfortable with it's like okay,and it also improves your
culture and connection as well.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
So yeah, yeah, I agree, and I think the, the mod
execs are definitely a bit moreum, you, you know, in tune with
with some of the concepts youtalk about.
Um, whether they all doanything about it, it's probably
a different, different question, but um, but yeah, so um, look,
um really appreciated your time, joe.
It's like a lot of your kind ofcore principles, because I

(58:08):
think we can all resonate withthem and I think they mean a lot
to me and I'm sure peoplelistening would get a lot out of
this this hour whilst theylisten to it on their their
daily walk or their bike journeyor whatever.
Um, so one of the things Iwanted to talk about was your.
You.
So how, if someone's listeningto this podcast and says, like,
do you know what I actually wantto do something about that?
You know you're, you're basedin Queensland, so what are some
of the events you've got comingup or how are some of the ways

(58:31):
that people could engage you,joe?

Speaker 2 (58:33):
Well, people can just go to my website, joepionecomau
.
There's always some freeresources available there.
I'm not sure of when this willbe released, but as of July.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
So it's going to go out probably early mid-July.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
Right released, but as I was going to go out
probably, uh, early mid-july,right, well, july 18.
Um, we have the, uh, we've gotwhat's known as the uncertainty
mastery boot camp coming up,which is a four-part series,
about one hour each session.
That's free to the public, thatI only deliver this three times
a year and, um, we're kickingoff on july 18.
For people to register for that, all they need to do is just
head over to joparneycomau andyou'll see it there on the

(59:12):
screen.
You can just register.
It's pretty straightforward.
And also people can follow meon all the main socials, which
is just simply Insights with JoeParney or Joe Parney Insights,
I think it's called which theycan find me on LinkedIn.
If people Google my name inLinkedIn and Facebook, they'll
find me anyway.
But yeah, so they just go tothe website, and that

(59:37):
uncertainty mastery boot camp isa brilliant way to introduce
oneself, you know, deeper intothis work and then from there,
people can make a decision interms of whether they want to go
deeper or not?

Speaker 1 (59:49):
Okay, so obviously, school holidays as well, as you
probably.
We talked about those micromoments, so your son decided to
hoover his room, which he neverdoes whilst we're on a podcast.
Of course, that happens right,but I'll embrace the fact that
he's doing it.
Okay, so really good to hearabout those events.
You mentioned books.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
So any books that are on Amazon Store or whatever
that people can buy, yeah, so onAmazon, my book, courage to Be
you your Guide to MasteringUncertainty, is my life's work
effectively, which was releasedjust late last year.
So that's available on AmazonCourage to Be you and it covers
all of those five principles inabsolute depth that we covered
earlier.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
So, yeah, Sorry, I'm just shouting out stop hoovering
, because he did it on purpose.
Now, that's all right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
I can't actually hear it.
That's all good.

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
So if anyone wants to read the book, get onto Amazon.
Is it on the Kindle as well?

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Yes, I think it is on kindle yes, on the kindle store
as well.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
So, uh, like kindle readers like myself, you can get
hold of it that way, okay, um,joe, really have enjoyed talking
to you in the past hour.
Um, yeah, say I think a lot ofpeople listening from a personal
productivity and businessproductivity can learn a lot
from kind of some of thoseconcepts you talk about.
Um, and uh, yeah, wish you allthe best and really looking
forward to staying in touch inQueensland and yeah, and hear

(01:01:10):
more about your journey.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Thanks, lee, really appreciate you having me on.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Thank you, okay, thanks.
So that's another great episode, done and dusted, as always.
I'd love to hear from you ifyou know anyone that's got a
really good story to tell abouthow they are or not living a
productive life.
If you want to get in touchwith me, please do so by my
website, wwwliestephensco.
That's wwwliestephensco.

(01:01:35):
You can email me, lee atleastephensco, or get in touch
on LinkedIn, which is where Ialso hang out.
In the meantime, have a goodweek, thank you.