New Zealand Immigration: Expert Insights with Michelle Chen

What does it take to navigate the complex world of immigration law in New Zealand? Join our captivating conversation with Michelle Chen, an immigration lawyer and employment law specialist, as we uncover the ins and outs of bringing international talent to the Land of the Long White Cloud. Born and raised in a family of first-generation migrants from China, Michelle's personal journey has driven her passion for assisting businesses and individuals alike in their immigration endeavors.

Discover the different pathways for hiring overseas talent as we discuss Michelle's experience in immigration law and the benefits of becoming an accredited employer. Learn about the work-to-residence visa, the process of becoming an accredited employer, and the requirements for achieving this coveted status. Michelle also shares insights on the various visa options available for individuals wishing to call New Zealand home, recent changes to the skilled migrant category, and the importance of trust and honesty in navigating the immigration system.

As an added bonus, Michelle brings to light some memorable immigration cases she's been involved in, demonstrating the positive outcomes that can be achieved with the right guidance and support. Whether you're a business owner looking to expand your global team or an individual considering a move to New Zealand, this episode is packed with invaluable information and expert advice from Michelle Chen. Don't miss out on these essential insights to help you navigate the intricacies of immigration law in New Zealand.

Hear how some of Australasia's most interesting and successful people are utilising People, Technology and Processes to live a productive life.

For more information on Lee Stevens visit www.leestevens.co

Sponsored by workforcery.com

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Time and Motion podcast with me, your
host, lee Stevens.
For over 25 years I've workedwith businesses all over the
world to improve the technologyand the people within them.
In this podcast, i share someof my experiences and I chat to
guests who generously sharetheir stories of how to or, in
some cases, how not to live aproductive life.
I hope you enjoy the show.

(00:28):
Hello and welcome to Time andMotion with me, lee Stevens.
So before I introduce today'sguest, i just wanted to ask a
quick request.
That request is to give me somehonest feedback.

(00:51):
Now, the best way to do that isby rating the show, whether
that be on Spotify or Apple,which is the main two platforms
which I can see that everyoneuses.
To do that on Spotify, you needto go to the show, you need to
click the three dots and then itwill be rate show.
So you just need to click onthat and then give the show a
rating.
To do that on Apple or onpodcasts, what you need to do is

(01:14):
just need to go to the show andyou need to scroll right down
past all the recent episodes andthere you'll see ratings and
reviews.
So if you can give that a fivestar rating or whatever rating
you feel it's worth, with somecomments.
That would be really helpfuland it will help me improve the
content, the guests and the waywe run the show.
This week I catch up withMichelle Chen, who is an
immigration lawyer and anemployment law specialist based

(01:35):
here in New Zealand.
Michelle's family moved overfrom China in the 80s and opened
up a restaurant.
Michelle worked in thatrestaurant when she was younger
and during that time it reallyspanned a passion for her about
how to help people and how tohelp businesses employ immigrant
workers overseas to improvetheir productivity and just

(01:56):
generally improve theirbusinesses.
Really fascinating episode andif you're, like me, was always
interested in what options wereavailable for both employers and
for the people there self wortha listen.
So on with the show.
Michelle Chen from MC Legal,welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Thanks, lee.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
How are you?

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Good thanks, how are you?

Speaker 1 (02:17):
I'm very well, thank you.
So not as well as it has beenin Christchurch the last few
days, but still quite brisk outthere, right.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, sort of like typical cantabrian winter really
.
We can get crisp in the morningand then hopefully nice weather
in the afternoon.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, fingers crossed , fingers crossed, okay.
so before we kind of get intoall the good stuff, just tell us
who you are and what MC Legaldoes.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yes, so my name is Michelle Chen.
I'm an immigration lawyer.
I've set up my own practicecalled MC Legal, and my business
aims at providing specialistimmigration advice to businesses
and to individuals.
The reason why I set this upit's only been about it's less
than 12 months, so about 7 to 8months in The reason why I set

(03:01):
it up was just to be able tomake a difference through my
immigration knowledge.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
so yeah, So immigration law and questions is
something that I guess I'vealways been asked about in the
industries that I've worked in,obviously quite complimentary to
what you do.
So I thought it'd be reallygood to get you on the show and
actually be able to dispel someof those myths and answer some
of those common questions thatbusiness owners and business

(03:26):
executives in New Zealandespecially have.
So it'll be a bit of a grilling, so hopefully not anything
courtroom style that you mightbe used to in your training.
Okay, so before we kind of getinto things really, let's just
talk a bit about you.
Let's go back.
So where did you grow up andwhat was your early life like
for you?

Speaker 2 (03:45):
So I was born in New Zealand so you can hear it from
my accent, but visually I'mChinese.
So I grew up in Taranaki.
I was born in Whanganui, spentabout 9 to 10 years in Halbera,
which is a tiny town about anhour to an hour and a half away
from Whanganui or about an hourand a half from New Plymouth in
the North Island, and, yeah, igrew up helping my parents out

(04:10):
at their restaurant.
So my parents are firstgeneration migrants.
they came over from southernChina, from a small village in
Guangzhou just outside of thecity In the mid 80s, and then
they came over as skilledmigrants.
So that's the reason why I gotinto the sort of the immigration
laws that's always resonatedquite closely to me as well.

(04:32):
And, yeah, so I grew up helpingthem out in their restaurant and
then later fish and chirp andthen back to restaurants again
all throughout New Zealandreally.
So they had businesses inHalbera, napier, auckland,
hamilton and Waorou, which iswhere the army basis.
Yeah, so I've kind of grown upin that central North Island

(04:56):
aspect and yeah, did your familyhave businesses back in China?
No, so my dad's quiteinteresting.
So he initially worked inconstruction.
So that was sort of becausethey lived in the village.
It was really them needing toupskill.
So my dad went into the city,did a little bit of labouring
and then I think he got his chefor culinary certificate in

(05:20):
Guangzhou city, working at somerestaurants.
But my grandfather from mymum's side, he was a businessman
and he would go betweenmainland China and Hong Kong at
the time.
Yeah, so I've sort of got thatsort of business background.
Ish, yeah, Fantastic.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
And what was early life like for you growing up?

Speaker 2 (05:42):
It was good, like in Halbera.
It was really great because itwas at the time.
I think it's my naivety andignorance, but I always felt
really safe.
So I would just go on a bikeride.
I was five years old and wouldjust zoom across the town
because it was so small and yeahso, and then I would always
help out mum and dad'srestaurant, like I mentioned

(06:03):
earlier.
So they've sort of been stalledinto me hard work and putting
in the hard yards.
So I remember finishing schooland then not because I was
forced to or anything, you knowall those labour laws, but
because I wanted to help themout and you know, saw them, they
were really struggling.
But yeah, i remember learningthe menu.

(06:24):
There was like a hundred itemsin the restaurant menu.
I remembered every single itemand the price of each and then
it was, and then I was only five, five or six years old.
So, yeah, it was quite good.
And then talking in English atschool was interesting and then
Chinese at home.
I remember growing up being alittle bit confused.
Sometimes I'll start talking tosome friends in Chinese or

(06:46):
Cantonese and yeah, that wasgood.

Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, and growing up in multicultural London, like I
did in the 80s it was I had somefriends who probably very
similar to you in theirbackground, where they used to
help their family out in theirrestaurants or their businesses.
But it was amazing how, yeah, isuppose, so much social skills
and people skills they werelearning very quickly.
They probably didn't realisethat I just thought, oh, you

(07:10):
know, mum and dad are making mework again.
But yeah, just the nature ofpeople and customer service and
you know all that good stuffthat you and products and
marketing and all that kind ofgood stuff you probably don't
you take it for granted, i'mguessing at that age, right, but
yeah, in years later youprobably realise that it put you
in good stead for what you donow.

Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, it was actually quite interesting because I
remember when I was about 15 Istarted to negotiate my wages
with mum and dad, because Ididn't get paid, obviously.
So I remember saying to mum oh,you know, mum, i think the
minimum wages I don't know, ican't remember how much it was
at the time I said, oh, but youknow, i'm willing to work for
half of that if you give mepocket allowance.
And she's like, hey, i'm asecond, you've been working for
three and now you want wages.

(07:49):
What's the?

Speaker 1 (07:50):
difference.
Yeah, maybe that's where thenucleus of the fairness kind of
started.
Right, you know I want what'sright.
Yeah, okay, all right.
So where did you go touniversity?

Speaker 2 (08:01):
So initially I started out at Otago so I went
down after high school, movedout of home so my parents at the
time was in Auckland and Inever, ever wanted to go to
Auckland Union which is funnybecause it's a great university
but I just wanted to get out andyeah, so Dunedin started a
Bachelor of Science.

(08:22):
Majoring in neuroscience wastwo papers from finishing
realised that I wasn't smartenough to be a doctor and I
didn't want to work in a lab allday, every day, because I liked
that people interaction.
So then I decided to do law andI wanted to move a bit closer
to home because at that stage itwas about two and a half years
and cold Dunedin.

(08:42):
So I decided to move up toNorth Island and did my law
degree at Waikiru University andI did that in, i think, two and
a half years because I was ableto do all law papers instead of
just.
You know the combination of thetwo.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
So, graduated with a law degree, did you then go and
work in One of the big lawyers,big legal firms?

Speaker 2 (09:07):
No, i didn't.
Actually I never applied So Idid.
In my last year I spent a monthabroad in Shanghai, so that's
where I did business law andintellectual property, not in
Chinese.
My Mandarin wasn't good at allat that stage And I did a six
month language course there.
Came back graduated profs whichis that professional studies

(09:34):
program that you have to do tobe able to get admitted to the
bar decided to do a stint inAustralia, so my partner and I
moved over to Brisbane.
We gave ourselves up to sixmonths because of our student
loan.
We didn't want interested toincur on it.
I couldn't actually get a jobover there And so what I did was
I just worked part-time atMichael Hill selling diamonds,

(09:59):
so that was fun.
And then in my first threemonths of training, just as a
sales and it was only part-timeI became the top salesperson for
Queensland two weeks in a row.
So that was quite funny Andthat was the first time anyone
that had been in the first threemonths of training had ever
done that.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah.
So I was quite fortunate towork with a number of legal
firms in my consulting businessthat I exited in December, and
one thing that always struck outto me was how competitive those
grad and those intern roles are.
And like it's, you know, onefirm mentioned to me, they get
300 applicants every year for 10positions, right.

(10:36):
So you know and I've heardsomeone say this before do you
think we're kind of creating toomany lawyers or pushing people
down the legal route whenactually we've got a bit of an
oversupply, or does it evenitself out that people take
different paths?
Is it just because they'retrying to get into those big
legal firms?
Why is it so competitive?

Speaker 2 (10:54):
It's quite interesting because when I was
in law school it was sort of themain option.
So throughout the is it two anda half three years I was there.
I remember going to careeraffairs and it would just be the
top is it top six firms in allof New Zealand that would be
promoting the graduate programs,and so there wasn't really an

(11:17):
alternative pathway.
I didn't want to go into thebig firms.
There's nothing against thembecause I think they do a good
training and there's goodquality work.
I just didn't want thatpressure and I didn't want to
work, you know like.
you hear the horror storiesabout working 6 am to midnight
and seven days a week and youknow, and I had some friends

(11:38):
that did go into those firms andgot burnt out.
So what I wanted to do was tomake a difference.
I've always wanted to do that,so I carved a different journey
for me.
So after coming back fromAustralia, i got a job straight
away.
I worked as a junior barristerfor a barrister up in Auckland
who focused on criminal andimmigration, with some elements

(12:02):
of employment law, and I was incourt the first, i think the
first week I got my practicingcertificate.
So that's always.
that was an interesting start,but yeah, and it's different
training, but it's a differentpathway and I don't think it's
the right one.
It's just you, as a lawyer or alaw graduate, you just need to

(12:23):
find out.
you know what your values are,know what they are and stick to
them and carve out the pathwaythat you want for yourself.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah, that's a fair statement, I think.
Certainly the ethical side oflaw and the human side of law, i
think, has definitely becomemore apparent in the last few
years, which is good to see, ithink, for a lot of people.
Okay, so you did your stintwith the barrister in Auckland
and then was MC next.
Was there something in between?

Speaker 2 (12:49):
No, so in between.
So I did three and a half yearsthere.
I took an eight month break.
I was probably signs of burnoutand just had enough and wanted
a bit of a change.
I did four months overseas, sothis was back in June 2019.
So we went to Europe, centralAsia, western China and then

(13:13):
China, and then came back to NewZealand and then at that stage,
reconsidering options andwhether or not we'll keep
travelling.
But then, obviously, the COVIDpandemic hit and Mum and Dad
were in Southern China inNovember when they had heard at
the markets that there'ssomething going up north and we
didn't know what it was And wedecided to stay put.
So I actually spent my partnerand I spent another four months

(13:36):
in the Coromandel.
So just speech, life was great.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
Hard life for some.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
Then I realised that actually at that stage I needed
to get a job and probably thepandemic was sticking around.
So I got a job down here inChristchurch.
So I'm done and, yeah, it wasgood.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
And that was working for another legal firm.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, law firm down here.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
Okay, yeah, matea, cool, all right.
And then, at what point did youthink?
do you know what I don't want?
the luxury of regular pay andregular hours and all the
trappings of being an employee,decided to set up on your own.
So was there a trigger momentthat made you think, yeah, i'm
going to go and do it?
Or was it something you fellinto?

(14:17):
You took us through that?

Speaker 2 (14:19):
I've always been interested in it, especially
because I worked for a singlebarrister up in Auckland And
then I sort of got theunderstanding of how a practice
would run and how it's just allstuff that you don't really get
taught in university.
And so when I came down here toChristchurch about three years

(14:41):
ago now I'll say a bit years agothe firm didn't actually have
an immigration practice.
So for me it was a really goodchallenge because it meant that
I got the chance of havingregular income but still got the
flexibility of trying to builda practice from scratch and it
wasn't a specialty area that hadbeen offered traditionally in

(15:04):
terms of its practice areas thatthe firm offered.
And then I started.
So we came down on the Saturdayon the Saturday just to
announce the four levels Andthen I think we went lockdown on
the Wednesday or Thursday andthen I started my job on that

(15:24):
Monday.
So, effectively, new city, newfirm, new practice, or during
the pandemic.
And what I found was because Ihadn't relied I had never relied
on the international market butI hadn't relied on offshore

(15:45):
work.
All of my work previously hadbeen onshore, so I managed to
capitalize on that and justbuild my relationships remotely
at this stage to work onprevious clients that I helped
before and then from there justgrew.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
Okay, but it wasn't a Eureka moment or a head bang
moment.
You know what I'm going to goon set up on my own.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
Probably last year, but May last year, when I was
like I just had had enough.
I had enough that I wasn'tnothing against the firm, but I
just realised, oh, actually Ican do this on my own.
I managed to make my own salaryand more.
Why don't I do it myself andorganise it myself?

Speaker 1 (16:25):
And I remember when we spoke last week you said your
family had some opinions onthat move.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So, like I said, my parentscame from a village in China, so
they're pretty traditionalChinese, and my dad was just
like, what do you mean?
Oh, so are you busy?
Like do you have work?
And I'm like, yeah, no, i'mactually quite busy, dad, i know
it doesn't look like I'm quitecarefree and, you know, relaxed,
but yeah, no, i'm really busy.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think that's just parents'
prerogative, right.
They're always going to comefrom a different generation to
you.
And it's interesting because Iread so many other day that you
bring your own children up, butyou're bringing up them in a
world which is probably a worldthat let me rephrase that So
you're bringing up your childrenin a world that you grew up in

(17:15):
but no longer exists.
So the kids that you'rebringing up now, just their
whole life and the whole societyis different.
So you have to kind of be a bitopen and let them find their
own way.
I think most parents will,right.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
I think it'll be quite hard.
I'm not a parent myself, but Ithink it'll be quite hard for
parents now, because it's likeyou're going through challenges
that you never had gone through,and you're actually going
through yourself, right?
So how are you supposed tobring up children in that sort
of environment, right?

Speaker 1 (17:44):
But Yeah, I agree 100%, But I think it's no
different.
I just think every generationhas their own different
challenges, and that's just life.
Life evolves.
So I hear you 100%.
Okay, so you're now in businessMC Legal.
Tell us what your first two orthree engagements were.
What were they doing?

Speaker 2 (18:04):
When I set up my practice, i got my practicing
certificate on the day mypracticing on my own account was
approved, so that was quitequick from the Law Society.
And that afternoon I got myfirst engagement And that was
just wow.
I couldn't believe it.
And it was to help an Americanclient go through the

(18:25):
partnership residence pathwayand looking at any risks,
addressing it and advising themon that.
So the partnership category hasalways been sort of the stuff
that makes you feel good.
I always love bringing couplestogether especially for those
that are based in New Zealandand offshore and trying to
reunite them, and because of thelast three years it's been

(18:46):
pretty incredibly difficult.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
So It's a romantic comedy for Netflix idea in there
somewhere, right You know Couldbe.
I said wasn't there a GeraldDeppardue green card Or
something?
was that an 80s movie aboutimmigration?

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Oh, i don't know, i have to see me in the link, or?
Yeah, i love to watch that.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah, yeah, okay, so it was a partnership visa And, i
guess, probably a goodopportunity to ask what you
actually do.
So, from my perspective, youknow immigration law and
obviously that will probablyoverlap into employment law as
well.
So there's two sides of it,right.
You've got the employers whoare trying to find staff and
bring staff into the country andplay ball in the right way in

(19:27):
terms of those immigration steps.
And then you've got on theother side of the thing, you've
got the people who are, you know, trying to either get those
jobs or move countries, andsomeone like myself who's
actually done that, you know,albeit nine years ago, is an
interesting process to gothrough.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
So is it a fair?

Speaker 1 (19:44):
statement.
You help both of those parties,and so sometimes it'll be
companies coming to you,sometimes it will be individuals
.
Is that a fair statement?

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, that's fair, probably about 50-50 at my
current work stage.
So my second client was quite abig client for a business or
organisation up in Auckland Andthey needed basically their
right-hand man, i mean theirright-hand woman for the
immigration matters.
So I work closely with thepeople and culture team and look

(20:13):
at first I initially looked atreviewing all their current
processes and then makingrecommendations.
Then it was about getting themaccredited and then also making
sure they've got the job checks,which is, you know, the roles
that they have available orunderway and approved so that
they could be ready for theirrecruitment for this year.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Okay, that's perfect.
So let's break this down then.
So, first things first.
if we look at a company who'slooking to employ people from
overseas, my understanding isthere's two paths You either
become an accredited employer,which we'll talk about in a
moment, or you can go down theother route, which is you're not
a accredited employer but youhave to show you've tried to

(20:53):
recruit local people and you'vetried traditional paths.
Is that?

Speaker 2 (20:57):
correct, Mostly So.
The first pathway is theaccredited employer and that
will become likely compulsorynext year.
The second pathway is usingwhat other visa options there
are to try and supplement yourcurrent workforce.
So, for example, we talkedabout the agri sector just
before.

(21:18):
I always make a recommendationto have working holiday visa
holders, especially now becauseI think they've increased the
numbers as well because they'retrying to get people over here.
They get visas for one to threeyears, So if they're here, then
on the open book visa they canstart away.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
So they're essentially applying off their
own back rather than being anyconnection with the employer.
Yeah, absolutely So, theaccredited employer thing I
thought was interesting becausethe business that bought me over
, which no longer exists anymoresince being bought out by
Capgemini a couple of steps butthey were an accredited employer
at the time and employingtechnical and IT people from
overseas was quite tricky but itjust appeared very quickly when

(22:00):
I was going through theimmigration process that there
was.
It was a lot more streamlinedin fact that they was is that a
fair statement?

Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, so I'm assuming probably about nine years ago
you came over on the talentaccredited employer pathway was
it Skills visa?
Yeah, so, yeah.
So it would have been probablyan average of about if you
earned over 55,000, worked foran employer for two years, then
you could apply for residency.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
That's the one.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, i thought so because I actually helped an IT
specialist on that one over four.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
so Yeah, yeah, it worked.
I think it was called work toresidency but it was based on
your skills.
Right Yeah, and but becausethey were an accredited employer
, it meant that it definitelystreamlined.
You didn't have to provide asmuch information as part of that
application.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, absolutely So.
They, the immigration at thatstage, would have known what the
business was all about makingsure that they're financially
viable, had good workplacepolicies, et cetera, all the
good stuff, okay.
And then, when you came toapply for the visa, it would
have been straightforwardbecause all you needed to show
was your qualification.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, I had a lot of those plastic envelopes, you
know, and A4 bits of paper andposted notes And I was quite
organised, but yeah, it wasrelatively straightforward once
you got your paperwork organised.
So, yeah, so, but just on thepoint about being an accredited
employer so this comes up quitea lot in conversations around
barbecues and fires et cetera inNew Zealand but to become an
accredited employer, what arethe key kind of criteria, key

(23:23):
bits of criteria that you needto adhere to?

Speaker 2 (23:26):
So it's a bit.
This is.
The current new system is verydifferent to the talent
accredited employer pathway.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah, so modern day.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah, modern day, so it's not as much paperwork, so
it's all declaration based.
So, firstly, that thebusinesses in the sound
financial situation, so positivecash flow, hasn't made a loss
in the last couple of years.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
like there's a few elements for elements Is there a
minimum turnover or?

Speaker 2 (23:49):
No minimum turnover.
Okay, but it has to be in afinancial situation where it can
actually employ people.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, and how do you do that if you're a relative of
a new business?

Speaker 2 (23:58):
I think it's declaration based, so you don't
actually have to provideevidence of it.
But any declarations you makehas to be truthful.
So, for example, if it's a newbusiness, i think if it's only
been registered for 12 monthsthere might be some backwards
and forwards communications withINZ, but if you're an

(24:21):
established business it shouldbe quite straightforward.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
Okay, and so you become an accredited employer
fill out some paperwork, providesome information, Any fees
involved.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yes, actually that's a very good question.
Can I pose that for you?
So yeah, so there's threedifferent types of accreditation
.
So standard accreditation andthis is the INZ application fee
740.
High volume, which is probablyquite common, that's more than
five workers on the accreditedemployer work visa.
That's 1200, just over 1200.

(24:52):
And then there's also thetriangular arrangement, so if
you're a labor hire business,and that's over 3000.
So it's quite a lot in terms ofthe actual app And that's per
annum Per applicant.
Per accreditation.
Okay, So another key point nowis that if businesses are not
accredited and they want to be,I suggest filing an

(25:14):
accreditation before the 4th ofJuly, because the first
accreditation's been extended.
So if you file before the 4thof July you get 24 months of
accreditation.
Anything filed on the 5th, say,you only get 12 months.
So huge benefits for businesses.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
I'm trying to encourage a lot just to do it
now because, wow, I'm surethere's someone we know that
could help them out if they needany help, right, hopefully.
Okay, so that's how you becomean accredited employer And then
I would imagine it's then perapplicants There's a process
that you'd have to go through tofor each applicant or each role

(25:48):
that you're trying to fill.
Is that a first statement?

Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, that's right.
So that's part of the secondstage process.
So also employer-led.
So it's called a job checkapplication.
So say, for example, if you'rea dairy farmer and you wanna
hire some herd managers and youthink, oh, it's a big commercial
enterprise, you want maybethree or two herd managers, you

(26:12):
gotta do the job check.
What I tell my employer clientsis that you should double the
numbers.
So, for example, if you've onlygot one herd manager, you're
only looking at recruiting oneherd manager.
I just put in two simplybecause in that six months the
business might change but youdon't have to use it, but it's
still valid for six months.
So if you see another reallygood overseas candidate that's

(26:35):
in the country and you say,great, they've got the right
qualifications, i wanna get thisguy on board as well.
You've actually got a reallystreamlined process and you can
invite them to apply for thework visa.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, good advice, good advice.
Okay, so they have to fill outcertain checks.
And one thing I hear quite alot is red tape and bureaucracy
and it's hard to do that.
You hear that from a lot fromemployers about immigration NZ.
But coming from the UK, iactually thought the process was
pretty slick compared to UKbureaucracy and red tape et
cetera.
But I mean, have you got anykind of opinions or any views on

(27:07):
how the slickness or thebureaucracy is compared to other
countries?

Speaker 2 (27:14):
I probably agree with you, lee.
I do think New Zealand is a lotbetter than other countries.
I remember the very first visaI applied for was a visa to go
to Russia And my God, thepaperwork that was involved And
I got declined the first timeactually.
So I think at least withimmigration New Zealand, you

(27:36):
always get a chance and you can.
They've got systems in placenow.
I mean it's the best systemwe've got.
I mean it's the system we'vegot.
So I've got to work with thesystem right So you can escalate
it, especially from anemployer's perspective.
So if I help my clients and Iknow that they need that worker
straight away, i would escalateit through the chain of command.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
Okay, so the part of being a creditors employer it's
fill out the information, givethe information you need, and
then what's the ongoingobligations at that point then?
So is there anything, as anemployer that you have to
constantly be doing or anychecks or paperwork that you
have to fill out on an ongoingbasis as an accredited employer?

Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah, so you just there's not really they don't
have a list of things that youneed, but you just need to make
sure that you meet the minimumemployment immigration standards
and that if there's any changesin your management so for a
bigger organisation, if like keypeople in the HR team or any
sort of ones that make hiringdecisions, that needs to be

(28:42):
updated to INZ within 10 workingdays.
So there's sort of those kindof deadlines.
Otherwise, it's just ensuringthat if you've got anyone on
board, they've been sent,especially on the accredited
employer work.
these are the been sentrelevant information.
So how to settle into NewZealand, which is really good, i
think, something that I findthat some employers agree and

(29:03):
disagree with, but I thinkoverall it is useful information
, especially for someone that'smoving to a country for the
first time.

Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, okay, brilliant .
So I know there's been someannouncements this morning and
in recent days around differentchanges that have been made to
skills visas and visas et cetera.
But one thing I thought wouldbe really useful is just to go
through what the key visas are,and key visas are option.
Now, I know there's heaps ofsub visas and sub classes that

(29:30):
you can, so we don't wanna godown that route.
but if we can just look at thetypical types of visas that are
available for both the employeesand the employer, So just talk
us through what those key onesare.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
So for all the employer's perspective, there's
only really, i guess I'llbroadly say, three types.
So you've got the workingholiday visa holders those are
four, i guess.
Those on a post-study work visa, so they're open work visa.
Someone that's completed abachelor's degree or high or
maybe level seven or higherdegree in New Zealand and

(30:03):
they've got an open visa.
So those two visa types, youcan hire them straightaway
because they've got open workconditions.
With the working holiday visasthere might be a restriction on
the type of employment they canhave, so maybe casual or they
can't be given permanentemployment.
So you just gotta check thoseconditions.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
And did I read somewhere that you can't work
for somewhere more than threemonths at a given time?
Was that still the case?

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah, so that's certain types, That's certain.
I guess it depends on where theperson's from.
So some have that condition,some don't.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
So if I run a hospital business to bar chain
and I wanna bring someone overdoing their reverse OE, as I
call it, come over here insteadof us going over there.
But they come over here andthey wanna get a work to fund
their travels etc.
They can do that, but for nomore than three months.
Is that in any one place?
is that correct?

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yeah, so that would be just check the visa condition
so it actually stipulates that.
So I would recommend, on thatcase, casual contracts.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nothing permanent, Yeah.
and then can they get around itif they go and work for one of
the other brands within thechain?
or is that the no-no?

Speaker 2 (31:08):
I think if it's the parent company and it's all on a
company's record, it might be abit of a no-no.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
I know there's gonna be people listening, thinking
it's that kind of question.

Speaker 2 (31:17):
And I've actually seen immigration checkup on it,
so it would be a little bitcautious on that.
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
OK, and so that working holiday visa is
generally what tends to be someof the younger people that are
coming over here to travel andsaying they can work and fund
their travels on their way.
So that's the working holidayvisa That last longer than a
year.
is that correct?

Speaker 2 (31:38):
So, yeah, 12 months or some have been extended to 24
months, yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Cool, all right, fantastic, and hopefully we're
starting to see a bit more ofthose being issued, because
obviously that tends to be whatfuels hospotism, and tourism
certainly helps those industries.
Is that a fair statement?

Speaker 2 (31:55):
Yeah, no, that's fair .
I think INZ had made anannouncement I can't remember
the exact numbers but they'veactually either doubled or
definitely increased more slots.
But it's just a matter ofuptake really from the other end
, right, yeah?

Speaker 1 (32:06):
OK, so working holiday visa.
What's the next one?

Speaker 2 (32:09):
So I said the post-study openwork visa.
So that's when someone's comeover as an international student
did a relevant qualification.
Usually now it has to be abachelor's degree or higher And
they get issued, Used to be aone year, two year, all now
three year openwork visa.
So there's no conditions withthat.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
So using that scenario, let's just say my
niece or nephew does theirdegree in the UK decide.
They just want to come liveover here for a little while.
That's all they need.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yeah, so if they studied in the UK, they won't be
eligible for that visa.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
They won't.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
Yeah, no, they had to study in New.
Zealand.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
Sorry, i misunderstand.
Ok, so someone who's come overas an international student got
their degree or their master'sin New Zealand and then they say
, ok, I want to build a lifehere and live here, mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
That's when they can build up their work experience.
Yeah, ok, and they can work inany industry.
Yeah, but I usually recommendfor someone that's, you know, if
they've got an architecturedegree, then to obviously work
as an architect or graduate.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, don't use it in an industry that might not get
as much benefit.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, I mean it was a few years ago when there had a
lot of people graduate with thebusiness diploma, So it would
just be just any industrygetting experience.

Speaker 1 (33:24):
So I suppose, from an employer's perspective, though,
you're probably looking at that, that channel, on the basis
that you've got some of the nextBright a, some not always
younger but next brighter thingscoming through and you've
getting someone who's Obviouslyacademic and you know it's gonna
be an asset to an organizationand maybe they find their own
pathway, but that essentiallyit's tapping into that emerging

(33:46):
talent pool.
Is that that first statement?

Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, no, that it's a fair statement.
Yeah, and they're likely tostay with you.
Know you as an employer.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, okay, cool.
So that's a good, good, goodone to know about.
And then what's the next one?

Speaker 2 (33:58):
I'll say the accredited employer work visa.
So that's the biggest one atthe moment.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
This one I came over on different different.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yeah, that was cool.
It's very confusing when theywhen they made the name change
off what on 90s gonna be a lotof confusion.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
They're a very good job explaining, by the way.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yes, highly technical .
I tried to back it as simple asand easy to understand as
possible, if that's okay.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, that's really accredited employer visa.
Yes, so what's that?

Speaker 2 (34:22):
So that's the one we just talked about earlier.
So if you're an employer, youhave to be accredited and then
you have to pass the job checksat a second stage And then after
that you can imply, invite Anoverseas candidate or a
candidate in New Zealand toapply for the accredited
employer.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
So what would be an example of a business that uses
that?

Speaker 2 (34:41):
All sorts.
I think at the moment Withafter June 1st, with carving
season, i've got a lot offarmers.
So they, you know, startedcontacting me back in May saying
that, oh no, we need theseworkers in for the busy period
ahead.
So they are keen to you know ifthere's, if they've got
standard accreditation, sothat's up to five accredited

(35:03):
employer work visa holdersworking for you.
Again, those job checks on theway.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
So we that, whether that be dairy assistant or herd
managers or whichever, So someof those meat packers or those
other Primary industries wherebring overseas not workers and
is it that they'd use it for?

Speaker 2 (35:20):
yeah, so that would be a little bit different.
So there's some othercategories for the.
I think especially the meatprocessing There might be.
I have to check into thatactually because I think there
are actual Industry specificnumbers Yeah, there is, yes with
the, with the pack.
Meat processor processingworkers.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
Yeah, very targeted, a very specific industry, and
that's what you use for those.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
Yes, yes, and he's a limited number.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
So would a good example on that accredited
employer?
would a labor hire business bean example of that?
Yeah, okay.
So so I run a labor hirebusiness.
We've got demand for 50carpenters or electricians or
whatever that might be, and Iwant to bring over someone you
know to for a Chippy or you know, for a carpenter, carpenter's

(36:04):
Job, essentially that's.
That's maybe the V and I'm anaccredited employer.
So do these checks, bring themover and that's the accredited
employer visa.
Okay, i understood.
Okay, what else?

Speaker 2 (36:15):
There's also the well , it's not really a new one, but
it used to be the partnership.
Work visa Types are those, sothere's two types under the
partnership.
So those are partners of a NewZealander, so they've got open
work conditions So they can workfor any business straight away
or they can set up their ownbusiness, whichever.
And the others is being apartner of a work visa holder.
So there's been a few changesin that particular category.

(36:39):
So if you are an accreditedemployer, you can still hire
someone that's on thepartnership And you don't have
to provide a job check for them,but you just have to provide a
job offer and to show that youare an accredited employer.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Okay, and that's probably for for people that
maybe come over with their, withtheir partner, and looking to
get into work yourself and Yeah,yeah, get them employment thing
for employment theirself.
Okay, understood, and then anyothers.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
Those are probably the main types of the moment I
won't go through like student.
I mean the student visas.
Yes, so some students can workfor you.
Yeah, after 20 hours a week.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yeah, now Did I miss some Standards.
Did I miss here?
You said that becoming anaccredited employer is gonna
become compulsory.
Is that right?

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, so I think there's.
I don't know if there's a exactdate yet on the cards, but yeah
, so there was an indication bygovernment saying that will
become compulsory next year.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
So any business, regardless of numbers, volume.
Even if you want to hire oneperson, you got become a credit
employer.
Do the checks, get through thatand then you can go and employ
people.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yeah.
So I had a really interestingquestion, probably a few months
ago, saying that if I've onlyhistorically relied on working
holiday visas, do I still needto be accredited because it's
quite a lot of expense up front,right?
And yeah, with that new change,yes, it doesn't matter what
visa type you hire, you stillgot to be accredited.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
Okay, so that's the stuff that kind of probably the
employer route in terms ofgetting into New Zealand.
So presumably there's thenStuff that you can do off your
own back.
So there's the skills, visasand and so forth.
So the stuff that if I, if Imake decision to move to New
Zealand, don't haven'tnecessarily found employment,

(38:16):
don't necessarily know what Iwant to do, but is there other
visa classes that that you canend the off your own back.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah.
So Historically I've had, youknow, before, and now, after the
COVID pandemic, i've got a fewpeople that have come over on
visitor visas.
So just exploring the country,you know, the genuine intention
was to be a visitor.
So explore the South Island,say, so beautiful here.
And then they realize, oh, cool, love to be able to bring my

(38:41):
family here.
What can I do?
What are my options?
right, so it really depends onwhat kind of background you have
.
So if you You know working,you've got Whatever specialist
skill set you have.
So engineering Doc to being a,you know, healthcare
professional, teachers are anyof those professional

(39:04):
Occupations you've.
You've pretty much got apathway there because of the
skill set that you can offer.
But it really depends on whereyou're from as well.
But there is the green list, soit's called the work to
residents or the straight toresidents pathway.
Today was quite Quite a gamechanger, especially for those,
because we're trying to fill,for example, teachers.

(39:25):
We're really trying to fill ahuge shortage, especially in the
next couple years.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
It's been all over the news and it doesn't help the
Victorian governmentAdvertising the radio to try and
poach teachers to go over thereright.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
Yeah, i just heard it yesterday There's an early
childhood teacher, oh wow, Ohyeah, i know and I think you
know.
I heard the other day fromanother lawyer.
They said you know, if Isomeone switched over Being a
professional, you get a 30%increase in wages, just like
that.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
So that rain drains definitely a thing at the moment
.
Yeah, okay, so as an individual, you have different Options of
a to which you the skills isobviously the main thing that's
going to get you into thecountry, right, if you're a
professional and worked in yourtrade five years, i think, the
three between three to fiveyears.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
I think yeah, three to five years.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
And then it's really a case of providing references
and you know the the necessaryinformation to back that up.
And I can remember when I Cameover because I'd worked for a
consultancy That was only threepeople, it was quite hard to and
I was the owner of the businessThat was like, well, what, what
have you been doing if you gotany references?
but it was quite interestingbecause the firm were an

(40:33):
accredited employer.
We just had to confirm thatwe've been trading, you know,
and, and you know I think weadded one, one client reference
Maybe, and it was a lot morestreamlined.
So, but yeah, that skills visawas put.
You know that would have beenan option as well.
Okay, so different optionsavailable for employers,
different options available forindividuals looking to come to
NZ.
What were some of the changesthat were made this morning or

(40:54):
in the last few days?

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Probably this morning .
Actually, I think we were justtalking about just before we
were yeah, so it's changes tothe skill migrant category.
So that's probably for thoselisteners.
It's the one that had initially160 points and then 180.
And If you've got a job offerand it's a skilled job offer and
you've got the rightqualifications etc And you have

(41:17):
enough points, you can apply,first through an expression of
interest To say that you've gotX amount of points and you
qualify, and then, once youselect it, you are Invited to
apply.
So that's the skilled pathwaythat you mentioned earlier.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
What are the big changes that they've made there
then?

Speaker 2 (41:31):
So they've actually gonna check this.
They've just announced it, butthey're gonna change the points
system.
So instead of the 180, which iswhat everyone's used to now,
well, 160 before.
They're going to narrow it downto six points.
So it's based on what it wasoriginally before, so a skilled
job offer Or be an employment,so that's a lot of points right

(41:53):
if you've got an offer ofemployment.
Oh yeah, i mean that's halfyour application, right?
I mean, if you don't have anoffer, there's no point
considering it.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
So just for the listeners benefit.
I mean, i've said, having beenthrough this process myself, you
have to reach a certain amountof points and you get different
amounts of brownie points fordifferent things.
So, speaking English to adecent level coming from East
London, some of my family mightdisagree with that.
Speaking English at a certainlevel, having game, yeah,
employment in a certain industry, professional qualifications,

(42:22):
degree, you know, and all ofthese points add up to the
minimum criteria, right?
So, you looking for, so what?
what I'm hearing, like you'resaying, is they produce the
amount of points that you needto get in on That visa, or
they've just reclassified someof those things the reclassified
is probably a better way to putit.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
So instead of 180 it's just six points.
So you get, say, for example,you've got a skilled job offer.
So skilled job offer, andthere's always been the question
because employers say what doesit mean by skilled?
right, because they know theirroles and they believe it's
skilled.
But what INZ use is called theANZCO, so the Australian New

(42:59):
Zealand standard classificationof occupations.
Yeah, it's bit of a mouthful,yeah, and it goes way easier.
So today classify all jobs intoone, two, three, four or five.
One, two, three being a higherskilled, four and five being
lower skilled.
So for those professionaloccupations we just mentioned it
earlier, so doctors, teachers,nurses, all of IT, it

(43:24):
Specialists, they'll probably beone to three, and then four and
five would be more sort of likethe labor labor sort of roles,
right, yeah?

Speaker 1 (43:33):
skill trades.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Yes, skill trades, yeah.
So if you're an offered at aposition That's one to three,
you have to.
You have to be offered at leastthe median wage, which is now
2966.
Or if you're in a skilled base,which is four and five, you
have to be one and a half times.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
Do you think those wages gonna go up?
because I've always looked atthose and yeah, having been
someone who's been trying toemploy and obviously been
through the other side of things, but I've always looked at and
gone that's pretty low.
You know the wages that you'vegot, you know it's, it's, it
should be higher.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
I think it's.
It depends on the role right,depends on the industry, i think
, especially for thosehospitality Employers out there.
I mean, how can you afford topay someone for your dollars an
hour?
Yeah you know, especially withthe cost of everything,
ingredients etc.
So I mean, but then I guess, ifyou're say a teacher, i guess

(44:25):
in the public system will beobviously not enough.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
It sounds like your parents behind you and
Mentioning the cost of those.
Cospo workers but I hear you andthe run, i suppose, in IT and
certainly in technology roles,we Yeah, i suppose we've been
quite fortunate because they'repretty well paid and most of the
time, yeah, yeah, okay, allright.
So lots of different options.
There's one final question I'mgonna ask you is is the family

(44:50):
route?
so Obviously, when you decideto go overseas and you build a
brave new life, you leave familybehind.
So I can remember my mumtelling me on her death bed she
passed away three years ago thatI was like a pirate and was
stealing her grandchildren awayfrom her.
So I was like okay, mum, let'snot leave anything unsaid, but

(45:10):
obviously it'll dagger to theheart, but the reality is you do
leave family behind, and my dad, who isn't with us either, but
at one stage he's like it's allright, son, come on out there.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
It's like oh God, what's going on?

Speaker 1 (45:22):
But he was pretty adamant that he was gonna come
out here And when I did a bit ofresearch it was because of his
ill health And he was a driverfor HDV, driver for class three
or four, i think they calledover here So he wouldn't have
had the skills, he would havefailed on health grounds.
So family visas is there kindof.
Has that got better?

(45:42):
Is that a bit more open now?
And do you see a lot of peoplestruggling to try and bring
family over?
Because it is hard, especiallyif your family wanna come with
you?

Speaker 2 (45:52):
I think, yeah, the parents is a difficult one.
There's been a few changes inthat particular category And I
really feel for the ones thathave come here and then got
residency and now they're justlike, okay, great, I've got my
aging parents back at home,wanna bring them over.
The most common one would be avisitor visa three years to five
years, each visit being aboutsix months each time, Or three

(46:16):
to six months, they say That'sthe easiest, but you still don't
have that element of permanency, So you don't have residency,
you don't have the rights of aresident or permanent resident
visa holder in New Zealand, Butit gives a chance for the
parents to come and visit whenthey're still able to.
Another one is the parentcategory.

(46:38):
That was shut in 2016.
And then it got reopened inFebruary 2020.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
And then it got shut that week, Yeah, yeah yeah, And
that's where you basically sayI'm gonna sponsor, I'm gonna
look after them, I'm gonna payfor them.
They'll be a drain on thehealth system.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
Yeah, all that sort of stuff.
So as the adult child you cansponsor them.
At the time I think it was likeyou know, it got so much uptake
that that's why they shut it.
So the original policy was, asa single person you could earn,
i think it was at $60,000.
And then, combined husband andwife, $90,000.

(47:17):
But that changed And then Ithink it was like two times the
median wage it was sounachievable, and I remember one
situation where I had twospecialist doctors and they
could only support three out offour parents.
I mean, that's heartbreaking.
How would you?

Speaker 1 (47:32):
choose.
Sorry, mum, did it make the cut?
No, it didn't make the cut.
Should have got a betterChristmas presents.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
Yeah, i mean if two highly qualified professionals
couldn't afford to support four.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
I mean Yeah, and I can remember I think my dad sent
me a link to that And I thinkthat was.
I was having a bit of a panicattack.
And I was like, oh God, he'sgonna come live right in the
corner for me.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
Not that I wouldn't want that, of course, no, no,
okay, all right.
So family visas, a few,changing, as you say, it's been
a bit up and down in terms oftrying to go down that route for
that route for visas.
Okay, all right.
So really good understanding ofall the different options
available.
Now you mentioned that you doit for purpose and you do it for

(48:15):
yeah, so do something good for.
So what's been some of thememorable cases you've been
involved in where you, it's justa real good feel, good story
and a good outcome.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
Oh, I've got a few.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
What's the most memorable one.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Most memorable, i think maybe the very feel good
one.
Most recent one would be animmigration protection tribunal
case.
Father was declined a work visabecause of his not meeting with
some of the conditions, andthen it would impact his wife

(48:53):
and son who had already beensettled in New Zealand, had been
settled in New Zealand for, oh,i think, 15 years, so the whole
family would have to go backhome.
And the son was an achiever, hegot all the awards really
bright kids And we had to file atribunal appeal And it was on

(49:15):
humanitarian grounds and theygot yeah, they got it approved.
And I actually asked cause theywere on a work visa.
I actually, as part of theappeal, i actually asked for
them to be granted residencystraight away And they won that
And the whole family got to stay.
So that was yeah, i met themand just yeah, it was breakdown.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
Tears, tears, tears, tears, yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
Few, laughter and yeah all sorts and whatnot.
At the same time I had anotherman.
he was an individual but he hada New Zealand family here, been
in the country about 10 years.
but then was some issues withproviding false and misleading
information And I actuallydidn't think that there was a
strong case because in terms ofour immigration system, trust

(49:58):
and honesty and integrity it'sthe biggest thing.
So if there has been anyelement of fraud or misleading
information immigration, go hardat it And you need to justify
or explain or whatever, outlinethe circumstances right.
So I didn't think that he wouldbe successful, but then anyone
that engages me, they know thatI would back them right, i would

(50:20):
do my best out of my ability todo to make sure that their case
has been best forward, really.
But yeah, so he got hisresidency allowed And I think
he'll probably be on the pathwayto permit residency now.
So that was a really good onewhen I called him, because if he
were to go back to his homecountry there was a whole lot of

(50:41):
repercussions there.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
For, like, refugee status or for that kind of thing
.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
No, just because it was from a Muslim country.
So there were, yeah, that sortof background And so there was a
fear that maybe there might besome repercussions for him in
terms of his personal safety andwhatnot, and it wasn't a
refugee case at all.
But, yeah, when I called himbecause I wasn't in the same
city at the time I just calledhim straight away and he just

(51:09):
had to have a few moments ofsilence And, yeah, he was pretty
pleased with that one.
Yeah, so a few heart-warmers,especially with those
individuals and their familiesbeing reunited, of course, so
many of them.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
We've only got time for a couple, so what
immigration NZ would like todeal with, though.
So because presumably you'reoften to be broker a lot of time
in terms of the facts arepresented from the applicant And
obviously immigration NZ willprobably have their view on
things and they've obviouslytaken a lot of boxes.
Let's be honest about it.
They obviously have to havecertain rules which are

(51:43):
completely understand.
But, you know, are they?
do they provide that kind ofhuman factor I mean, you're able
to have a conversation andface-to-face meetings Or is it
all done, very matter of fact,and via portals and via emails?

Speaker 2 (51:59):
It really depends on who you get.
But in the last, probably thewhole time I've been practicing
in immigration, i've dealt withso many different types of
immigration officers.
Just the nature of the systemis a high turnover.
But then there are a fewregulars that I've dealt with
and they're the same people andthey remain in immigration for
the period of time I've beenpracticing.
But I always for first.

(52:21):
I always try to give them acall.
Probably about 80 to 90% of thetime they answer, but otherwise
I deal with them through email.

Speaker 1 (52:31):
And do you have to be sort of nominated by the
individual to say, yeah, I'mokay to speak about my case with
this person?
Do they have to kind of sign adisclaimer or just lease phone
up to say I'm okay with this?

Speaker 2 (52:42):
Yeah, so they just have to give me authority.
Yeah, i don't need to sign.
I mean, i always get a lettersigned anyway.
But I just, you know, oncethey're individual or employer,
so if it's a business, then theygive me the authority to act on
a business for half right.
So then I just give them a calland just sound it out.
So some situations where Ihaven't lodged anything and it's

(53:03):
all anonymous, and I sound outthe situation, get a feel for
the case officer, especially ifit's ones that don't meet the
tick box exercise, and then Ijust say look, this is the kind
of overview.
What are your thoughts?
How do we get you know?
how do we make sure that it'sachievable?

Speaker 1 (53:21):
If it isn't, then you know Yeah because once again, i
think they get a bit of a badrep, you know, in terms of
bureaucracy and red tape, butmost of the time I think you
know I said nine times out of 10, i think the deal is I've had
that there's always a human atthe end of the phone and they
explain things.
The only thing they haven'texplained is while my

(53:42):
citizenship applications taken15 months so far.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
But it might be the character right.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
But I guess that and all they can say there is
they're working for a backlog.
But I think that's the COVID.
You know the consequence ofCOVID and they got that backlog
and they was out of action for acertain period of time.
So I think there's plowingthrough that backlog and they'll
get there eventually.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
Yeah, and it's not just New Zealand's around the
world, you know, I think it was.
Canada was also similar.
It's about 18 months, So onthat note.

Speaker 1 (54:11):
I mean, what's the average?
I know you're gonna say itdepends on the visa, but what's
the kind of average turnaroundtime for someone who's you know
to process an accredited visa?
Is that pretty straightforward?

Speaker 2 (54:25):
Do you mean from the accreditation perspective?
Yeah, so this is how.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
I'm an accredited employer.
I'm gonna employ someone on aaccredited visa that we spoke
about.
So how long am I looking atbefore I can you know, to get
that person in the country andthey can start?
what if I applied today?

Speaker 2 (54:40):
If that person applies today, i would say a
minimum of a month minimum, andthat's if they've got all the
paperwork on the way.
It can be faster.
It depends on where that personyou know what the skill set is
for that person.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
Yeah, so I think people's interest to become
accredited really and, you know,to get a bit of a head start on
things.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
Especially now, because I think we've got about
two, just over two weeks leftbefore the 4th of July deadline.
So I'm gonna say I mean I'malready seeing now there's gonna
be a huge influx in employerswanting to get accredited
because they could save theextra 12 months.
But then we know that Julywould be a huge processing month
for immigration, so that'sgonna cause delay because

(55:22):
there's a lot more businessestrying to get accredited before
the 4th of July deadline.
You see, yeah, yeah, so becausethere's an increase of
applications that's where we'regoing.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
So, michelle, you obviously Doing pretty well.
sounds like you're busy.
What's the main reason peopleare coming to you?

Speaker 2 (55:39):
Reasons- I think, my responsiveness.
Usually it's quite funnybecause you think lawyers are
really good communicators andmost of them are, but it's just
Being able to just like.
I found that, just doing thebasics.
If someone emails me, i alwaysacknowledge the email within 24
hours, if not 12.
If I can't attend to itstraight away, then I actually

(56:01):
say, look, i'll give you a timeframe.
I'm upfront with my fees.
Where possible, i always give afees estimate, simply because I
think that the traditionalmodel of narrowly rate I don't
think it's It's gonna work inthis current stone age lawyers
aren't gonna be very happy.
Wow in terms of my work To givean estimate And yeah, and just

(56:26):
actually just getting theresults.
I think this and all, if notgain the results, at least
Providing a risk assessment onwhether or not they'll be
successful.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
I think that you know it's probably, you know,
testament to kind of the way youwork, and you know It's a lot
about the way you work as well.
But is that, is there Somecommon scenarios that they, they
come to you, you know, sothey've got stuck here or
they've reached an impasse here,or you know they're just a bit
overwhelmed.
Or you know, is it all of theabove?
You know what's the, what's theprimary, when they say into you
, okay, i need some help with astudent visa, temporary visa or

(56:57):
family visa, or my case has beendeclined.
Or you know, is there?
you know, is there like an, atypical reason that they're
engaged in you?

Speaker 2 (57:06):
So okay.
So I think the last month I'vehad a lot Of the 2021
residencies, that's that's about85% processed at the moment, so
165,000 residencies beingissued.
So mostly there, but the lastwe're on the last stretch, right
.
But I've been seeing a lot ofpeople that might have like a
criminal offending Or criminalconviction or traffic conviction

(57:29):
, even like killer striving,causing injury, and then that's
caused a character concern fortheir residency.
So I saw a huge influx of thatkind of work coming through and
because of my criminalbackground, i'm able to advise
quite adequately on that.
Well, i think I can.
And then another one isProbably employers.

(57:49):
So they just there's so muchinformation available on Google,
on the immigration website, andthe traditional model of what
they thought they knew hadchanged so much in the last
three years that some of theknowledge is right, but some of
the policies might have changed.
So they might come to me andjust say help, can you just do

(58:09):
it for me, look after it for me,and I that's where I step in
and I just, like I said earlier,and they're right-handed woman
and just sort of manage it allfor them.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
Yeah, is any common mistake she's saying people make
in the in the comes toimmigration and visas, etc.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
Probably from the employers perspective.
It's that labor market testing.
So some roles would have to beadvertised And not having
everything on the advert.
So, for example, the minimumand maximum range on the roll, a
lot of employers don't want toadvertise that rate But actually
, in terms of immigration size,to for it to be compliant and
for it to tick the box, youstill need that.

(58:45):
And then, obviously, offeringthe minimum hours.
So has to be a minimum of 30hours per week contract.
Yeah, we were talking aboutthat last week, right?

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Yeah, there was some stories that came out businesses
down in Queenstown that Thatweren't giving the people on
those visas the required hoursthat was in their contract.
So 30 hours minimum would havebeen the stipulation.
I'm guessing, yeah, and theyweren't getting that.
I was getting 20 and I know myMy belief in that is a lot.
That was probably doneunknowingly, wasn't that they

(59:14):
had to give that many hours?
or, you know, maybe thecontract was raised by someone
else or maybe one of their adminpeople and Maybe they didn't
realize that they weren't on theroster and so I think probably
that might be done unwittingly,but nonetheless they're still in
breach of visa, like youmentioned.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
Yeah, and so if that person's in breach of their visa
, that might cause arepercussion for the employers
for at their accreditationrenewal.
Yeah, so it's really good to doan audit of what your policies
are, or processes, and also theemployment documents.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
Yeah, all right.
So finally, If we look at NewZealand, that has traditionally
been a nation of immigrants,myself included, you know, from
from different paths anddifferent places around the
world.
I was at a conference aboutthree months ago where a
journalist spoke and hementioned that New Zealand
really should be planning to bea population of 16 million and

(01:00:06):
We'll do that through acombination of immigration But
also, you know, training andnurturing and keeping the people
.
You know it shouldn't be goingoverseas, but immigration is
gonna be a big part of if we dowant to become a, you know one
of them age-a-pack superpowers.
Our population's got to go up.
So have you got any kind ofstrong opinions on what the
future of immigration is fornext?
Well, four or five years forNew Zealand.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
There's a really, really interesting question, i
think, at the current, where theimmigration policies heading is
to attract those high skilledworkers right at the stage,
which is why there's the changeof the skilled migrant, the
heists.
You know the green lists thatwe mentioned earlier, but I
think it's gonna be really,really difficult for those that

(01:00:51):
Want to come here and just work.
You know laborers or you know Italked about dairy assistants
and stuff and they're actuallythe ones that keep the business,
like the economy, like hummingalong right, because if you
don't have those workers thatmight not have the specialist
skillset, all qualifications,then how would business keep
going?
Yeah because Kiwis are probablynot wanting to do those.

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
No, they're not, and I think Bernadine Hickey hit the
nail on the head He was the guywho heard speaking, but he
mentioned that the challengewe've got is that we're losing
those highly paid, highlyskilled doctors, nurses,
scientists, you know, ittechnology people and replacing
them with lower skilled, lowerpaid, you know, going to do more

(01:01:32):
primary industry where, likedairy and tourism, and so
Obviously that's gonna have animpact on taxes and revenue as
well, right, So so it's just beinteresting to see if anyone's
got any, if you've got anyopinions on that, whether you
actually feel that's gonna Go upor down or whether things are
correct yourself in a few years,or we'll get back to probably a
nice blend of the twoeventually, which I think
personally will happen in threeor four years time.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Yeah, i just don't want it to be too late, right, i
mean that's.
The thing is that if you know,like we just talked about
earlier, victoria offering thePay increase and getting
teachers over, we're already ata crisis of having no teachers.
So what will we do?
What would the education systembe?

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Yeah, and I actually think it's impacting the
education system in New Zealandas well.
You know, two kids are.
You're in that system, i thinkyou you only have to look at the
options available in differentschools and, yeah, it must be
really hard to be in a principalor being a board of governors
are trying to, you know, tryingto find these people because
they won't be there in threeyears time potentially.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
Yeah, i mean like I was just talking to a neighbor
earlier today, but they've, youknow, they've got kids in high
school and they've had, i think,two teachers only day or
something.
They've just, i mean, had oneday last week at school, i mean
their child's, and you know it'sa critical Stage, especially in
high school when you'repreparing for university.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
Yeah, yeah.
and interesting in the UKThey've in the NHS.
I don't know if you saw this.
they Basically come out withthis scheme where they're saying
well, you don't no longer haveto have a degree where you can
do vocational training, so andit's isn't for the surgeon roles
, i mean, you know it's like inthe UK.
Yeah, that would a pitchfork.

Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
So we're not gonna have any you know, unskilled
works.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
I think what they're saying is for some of those more
support roles.
Yeah, what's stopping someonegetting six, seven years of work
experience to become a, youknow, a nice?
maybe not nice, it's, but youknow one of those roles that
isn't brain surgeons,essentially, You know, I
actually think it was a bad idea.
You know, look at France and andSpain and some of those
European countries thatvocational routes They've always
done.
But I thought I want to be fitthat I actually don't think it'd

(01:03:30):
be a bad idea in New Zealandeither to go down That route.
But because not everyone'sacademic and not everyone wants
to go and go to uni, actuallywant to start work and gain
skills that way.

Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
So yeah, the interesting times.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Okay, all right.
So as we come to the interview,as we come to the end of the
interview, i want to ask you aquestion.
I ask everyone Okay, you couldgo back and give 21 year old you
Some advice.
What would that be?

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
Oh, Ah, 21 year old me?
I just, i think, at 21.
I was just preparing to gotravel by myself.
So It's a very good question,probably one.
Don't let, like yourself-limiting beliefs hold you
back.
For me, i think I had a lot of.
Maybe it's also being femaleand Being Asian, but maybe just

(01:04:18):
don't let any of the sort of theyou know You've got the voices
in your head saying, oh, can youdo it, or are you good enough,
or that kind of stuff.
But just make sure that youkind of dial that down a bit and
just get on with it.
Be open to opportunities.
You don't know when they come.
I think, for example, a meetingyou last week, lee, if I hadn't

(01:04:39):
, you know, struck aconversation with you, we
wouldn't have led to the podcasttoday 100% yes, but just can't
just being yeah.
Don't know when theopportunities will come, but if
they do, just embrace it.
Um three is I think youprobably have heard of the
phrase um tall poppy syndrome.
So There's always going to bepeople out there that will

(01:05:01):
probably try and Hold you backOr try and put doubts in your
thinking or whatever resistancethere out there is.
But just If you've got you know, just remain true to yourself.
You've got your values, you'vegot your skill set.
Just make sure that You justget on with it really and don't
let those people stop you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
Nice, okay.
So I would imagine be a lot ofpeople listening to this and
going she knows that stuff.
We really need to have someonelike that in our network and
someone we could engage.
So what's the best way forpeople to check you out and get
hold of you if they they want toGrab your services?

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Um, just feel free to just go onto my website.
Um, it's got a list of all theservices I offer by for
employers and individuals.
That's wwwmclegalnz.
Um.
And then all my contact detailsare there, so you can feel free
to give me a call or email.
Um, if I can't answer straightaway, I'll definitely answer
within 12 hours.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
Fantastic.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
Okay, michelle, been fantastic speaking to you.
Really appreciate you makingthe time to to come in and speak
to about Fascinating subjectfor me personally.
So uh, yeah, loved it, and thenI'm sure we'd like to get you
back on the show again at somepoint in the future as well.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
Thank you, lead.
It was really good to yeah, totalk to you through the
immigration system.
It's awesome.
Have a good week Cheers.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
Once again, another fascinating episode.
Really enjoyed that one, alittle bit different from the
ones we've had to date, and Ithought it was interesting
getting an expert in to talkabout And how that affects so
many of our businesses and alsothe options that are available
for both the businesses and forthe individuals.
It's obviously clear thatmichelle's got a huge passion
for helping people and alsoimmigration law as well.

(01:06:47):
So, as I said at the start ofthe show, if you haven't done so
already, it would be reallyhelpful to rate the show.
You can do that on Spotifyapple by going to the show,
scrolling down to the bottom orclick on the three dots And
clicking rate show, and thatwill help me out immensely.
In the meantime, have a goodweek.