July 29, 2024 • 43 mins
Ever wonder how technology and artificial intelligence are transforming the real estate market? This episode features Ben Keehan, a game-changing entrepreneur who's shaking up the real estate industry in New Zealand and Australia. Ben takes us through his journey from the photocopier sales floor to the forefront of property tech innovation with his groundbreaking company, FISBO. Skeptical at first, Ben dives into the challenges of becoming a licensed real estate salesperson and the indispensable role of prospecting in achieving success.
Tired of the traditional real estate model, Ben ventured into the tech world by experimenting with VR tours and integrating iStaging's VR technology into popular property listing sites. Despite facing hurdles in gaining widespread agent adoption, he managed to create a software add-on that evolved into a comprehensive brand supporting the private sale market in New Zealand. Discover how Ben's pivot to a tech-driven approach has provided valuable tools for both agents and sellers, improving cash flow and enhancing the property buying and selling experience.
Growing a tech startup in the real estate sector is no small feat. Hear from Ben as he shares his innovative marketing strategies, the constant battle for compliance with REA guidelines, and the flexibility of his platform to cater to varying seller needs. Whether it's DIY options or full-service support, Ben's vision includes bridging the gap between private sellers and real estate agents in a compliant and impactful way. Tune in to learn how the emotional aspects of selling property are managed and the significance of marketing and presentation in crafting successful real estate deals.
Hear how some of Australasia's most interesting and successful people are utilising People, Technology and Processes to live a productive life.
For more information on Lee Stevens visit www.leestevens.co
Sponsored by workforcery.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Time and Motion podcast with me, your
host, lee Stevens.
For over 25 years, I've workedwith businesses all over the
world to improve the technologyand the people within them.
In this podcast, I share someof my experiences and I chat to
guests who generously sharetheir stories of how to or, in
some cases, how to live aproductive life.
I hope you enjoy the show.
(00:28):
So in this week's episode Icaught up with Ben Keehan, who
is an entrepreneur and he isdisrupting the real estate
industry both in New Zealand andAustralia.
(00:50):
Ben has decided that he wants touse technology and AI and all
the cool tools we talk about onthis show to revolutionize an
industry.
He's been getting great guns.
I've known Ben probably justshort of two years now.
I used to bump into him at allthe tech conferences and just
thought he'd be a really goodguest to have on the show for
someone who can see anopportunity and can use
technology to improveproductivity, not just in his
(01:12):
business but in an industry.
So really enjoyed this one Onwith the show, ben Keehan, good
morning.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
G'day Lee, how are you?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
I'm very well thanks.
Welcome to the Time of Motionpodcast.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Thanks for making the time to jump on today, Thanks,
mate, it's an honour actually tobe asked to come and have a
chat with you.
You know, to be a listener isone thing, but to have the
honour to be on a podcast ispretty amazing, especially for a
Kiwi boy on the east coast inHawke's Bay, a small provincial
(01:48):
town.
Being asked to be on aninternational podcast is pretty
cool.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So you're in sunny New Zealand.
How's the winter treating youover there?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
We had a doozy frost this morning.
Probably about one degree,maybe minus one Celsius, so
pretty cold.
Lots of ice on the windscreenout there.
Got the fire going.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Pretty cold, but a really beautiful day, I'll get a
bit soft.
We moved to Brisbane inSeptember and I think it gets
down to about 17 now 16, and weput the jumpers on because it's
a bit cold.
So yeah, I think it's how lifechanges.
So, ben, we met at the SASconference, the Southern SAS in
(02:29):
Auckland.
I think it was a couple ofyears ago, and you were telling
me about your business there andit always kind of stuck in my
mind.
You know it's good seeing yourprogress on LinkedIn.
But yeah, just for thelisteners, before we kind of get
into it, just explain kind ofwhat your business is and, I
suppose, how it all came about.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
So I have a business called Fizbo, that's for
Internet Sideway Owner, or Fizbofor short.
Well, a bit of a long story.
I don't think any good ideasare going to start somewhere.
But effectively I was workingin real estate Back in 2015,.
(03:10):
I got shoulder tapped by aHarcourt's owner here and said
hey, ben, come along and do realestate.
You know you'd be really good.
You've had a background intelco and tech.
Um, you know, you've been aprospector and a hunter and I
think you should make you'd makea really good real estate agent
.
And I at the first I I said tohim oh, nah, I don't really want
(03:35):
to do real estate.
Um, I've, you know, I've justhad a business I sold and I
didn't really know what I was.
I didn't really trust realestate agents to a degree.
And I said to him look, I'vebeen, I've actually just taken a
job on selling photocopiers,right, and I thought that was a
(03:58):
good, honest thing and had asalary.
But I said to him, I said, look, if it doesn't work out, I'll
come back to you, right.
And so I went off and do thisphotocopier sales job and shit,
it was hard, it was bloody hard,really really hard Photocopiers
.
You know, you've got long-termcontracts and they roll over and
(04:19):
it's dog-eat-dog and it was anumbers game and it was really
hard breaking into a market inHawke's Bay and had a sales
manager that was a bit of ascoundrel.
So we had a falling out and Isaid, no, I'm out, I'm off, I'm
not doing this.
And I chucked it in and I rangup the franchise owner here.
(04:41):
I said, right, come on in, I'min, let's go and do this.
So we went through theirtraining.
I've spent, you know, threemonths doing my ticket.
I'm not a very fast learner,you know.
I wasn't a very good kid atschool.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, so once again for people listening, maybe
overseas real estate, which is astate agency in the UK, as we
call it, is licensed over here,right, so you can't just rock up
and I know that I think they'retrying to make inroads to
change that in the UK and othercountries.
But yeah, like a lot ofcountries, you can't just rock
up and sell houses.
You have to do some exams,which is what we're talking
(05:17):
about right, yeah, so you getyour.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
You call it your salesperson's license.
So there's some accredited NDQAtraining for that and then,
once you've attained that, youcan then work as a salesperson
for a license holder and thelicense holder in this case was
Harcourt, the local franchiseowner, and you would, you know.
So I did my training, sat intheir offices and learned from
(05:43):
the fellow agents around me andgot on really well with them,
learned heaps from them, got mylicense, went out and did
prospecting, because you have to.
You know there's no freelunches in real estate.
I mean, you might get we cantalk about how that works but
(06:05):
effectively you've got aprospect to find business and I
was a good prospect there.
I'd follow up on hunches, I'dhave conversations with people
and all the good agents aredoing it.
So the hard prospecting right,got my first listing and my
sales manager helped me throughthat and it was awesome.
(06:26):
I got my first paycheck and Ihad a retainer.
So when I did my training I waspaid a small retainer, thinking
a normal retainer.
You're paid a retainer to dothe work, do the training, and
it's just like wages.
Well, in actual fact it wasn'twages and I got clawed back from
my first commission, so I was alittle bit disappointed.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
It's a sub.
They subbed you, basically Asub me.
Yeah, well, it's like they giveyou a loan.
They treat it like a loan, theydo.
They do treat it like a loan,yeah, they do, yeah.
So I have to ask, because I'msure a lot of people listening,
and you know, myself included,right, real estate is probably
not the most, um, what's theword?
(07:10):
Uh, I won't say.
It's the one that's held, heldone, held in the highest esteem
by a lot of people and fordifferent reasons, probably,
like car salesman and recruitmajor, the sales guys, right, so
what was your kind of, you know, 60-second take on real estate?
You know, are all of thosecliches true, you know, are they
(07:32):
unscrupulous?
And, interestingly, by law youcan't right, which I've found
out recently.
You can't just do all thatunscrupulous stuff which people
claim that you do.
So, but, yeah, any kind ofright with the industry.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Well, I think, do so, but yeah, kind of any, any kind
of right of the industry.
Well, I think, I think I look,I'm not, I'm not anti-agent,
right?
So so don't, don't, don't, youknow, sometimes you know, a few
years I have been because we cango, we'll go through that.
Um, on the outside it looksglossy, right, uh, but on the
inside it is dog, egg, dog,right.
(08:07):
And.
And on a number of occasionswhen I was at harcourt, I did
have situations that um arosewithin the sales team.
Uh, that uh was were terrible,you know, and uh and dog-eat-dog
, so.
(08:28):
And I think the reason for thatis and I think, if you look at
what the REA in New Zealand hasdone and I'm an advocate for
them, I'm not licensed now theREA changed the Act in New
Zealand in 2008 with the goal totry and clean up the industry
(08:49):
and keep everybody on the sametrack, and the reason for that
is, if you read between thelines, is that real estate is a
commission business.
Okay, so the traditional realestate model is commission-based
, so you don't make any moneyuntil you make a commission, and
if you're hungry for acommission, the unscrupulous
(09:11):
behavior comes out.
Okay.
And if you look at New Zealandper capita, we've got the
highest number of real estateagents per capita and I think in
Australia it's much lower.
I think in New Zealand it wassomething.
If you take 5 million dividedby 15,000, what do you come out
(09:32):
with a stupid ratio, and theratio in Australia is much lower
.
So, commission-based, whenyou're doing listing
presentations, you're competingpredominantly.
You're competing with otheragents.
A win the same with agents inyour office and with other
(09:53):
brands and there's only onelisting so that property can
only be sold by one person.
And you know people will do andyou know people will do.
The worst will come out onpeople to get the listing in
some cases.
And new agents.
In my office, when I was a newagent, we were taken advantage
(10:18):
of by older agents.
Okay, and one particular guy Iwon't name him because he's no
longer in the game.
He was pretty and I'm prettyemotional about that because at
the time it hurt me.
Yeah, but it is mate, it is andyou don't see that.
Because you don't see that?
(10:39):
Because when the you noticethat agents they're always
recruiting, they're alwaystuning for your staff.
Why are they tuning for yourstaff?
For they're tuning because it'shard.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
It's hard to make money, yeah, and it's
interesting because the cut wewere talking about is just
offline, but it's interestingthe cut that they take as well,
right, which I know that kind ofvaries depending on the agents.
But you kind of look at thatand go, if anyone who's kind of
run their own business wouldlook at it and go, well, why
would you do it?
So you do all the work, you getthe listings, you find the
(11:13):
clients, you sell the stuff andthen you have to give anywhere
between 20% and 60% of that tothe and you just look at it and
go, why, why, why would you dothat?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Just explain that a little bit more, so for those
who don't know about the split.
So at Harcourt in New ZealandI'm not saying it's the same
everywhere, but when I startedit was 50-50.
10% went to HQ what I was told45% went to the office and then
the remaining 45% was splitbetween the seller and the.
(11:48):
I think that's a reallyinteresting point, right.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Sorry to interrupt there, because a lot of people
who kind of you hear about realestate agents, you think that
money is going straight in theirpocket and they might play a
small fee margin to the brand.
But it's actually the other wayaround, right, and I think a
lot of people don't realise that.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Some brands.
I know Ray White, they do it.
They allow you.
Again, this is from four yearsago.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I'mhappy to.
If Ray White wants to correctme, I'm happy.
So they were 80%.
But you had to pay a monthlycharge.
(12:29):
So the sales business, a seatcharge, it was called.
Yeah, you paid that seat chargeevery month.
They'd give you a higher splitand I'm thinking, well, why
would I pay you two grand amonth for the seat every month,
regardless of the outcome?
To me it just again was.
(12:53):
You know, I don't know, it justdidn't work out.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I think you're paying for their back office systems,
though, right, and I think thatfor a lot of people that maybe
aren't tech savvy and they justlook at it and go, it's too hard
.
But you know as well as I doit's not that hard to set up a
CRM, set up your finance systems.
Yeah, you can, with four orfive systems, you've pretty got
it made.
But you know, when you don'tknow, that you it's probably,
you know, preying on the unknowna little extent on on their
(13:26):
part, but, um, yeah, interesting, you know, kind of that, that
model which I think you know,when you, you don't know, you're
just a consumer.
Um, that said, I think, um, wehad two very um, uh, husband and
wife team sold our house in newzealand, you know, through the
harcourt brand, and they werebrilliant, you know.
And they, they tapped into theirnetwork and and you just look
at that when you're selling yourhouse, you go all right, okay,
that's um, you know a smallmargin, I'm prepared to pay
because the price they got andthe buyers they got Right, and
(13:48):
so I think that's where you mayhave some opinions that which
will come on in a minute but, um, yeah, but they, they, I think
(14:08):
you know I could name I don'tknow, in my local area I could
probably name 15 really goodpeople who I know are just
genuinely good people.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Great, awesome, yeah yeah, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
So let's get on to the business.
So you was working in realestate.
I think you'd been through acouple of that model of having
to give margins away and gettinga bit enchanted I think is the
what the word disenchanted withwhat was going on.
So what was the trigger momentthat that you know made you want
to set up a business, and andhow did it happen?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
um through chance.
Uh, it was a.
It was a striking event.
So so I was working for firstnational um I'd I I'd started
mucking around with VR, vr toursand this is a bit of a long
story but you know you can cutme out if you like, but so,
anyways, I was promotingiStaging's VR tours and I was
(15:06):
using them to promote ourlisting as a tool.
And we had a meeting with therep from Trade.
Me was in the office at FirstNational and Steve my bosses
were talking to her and I wasinvited to the meeting.
I did my rock down and saidG'day, how are you?
And she looked at me and shesaid, oh, you're that guy that's
(15:29):
got that funny thing on yourprofile photo.
And I said, yeah, yeah, that'sme.
And I said do you know?
Do you know what it is?
And she said nah, and I saidwhat it was.
It was a facebook messenger,had a qr code and you could put
your, your, your profile photoin the you know my mug inside
(15:50):
the qr code.
So I used that on my listingswith the hope that someone would
scan it.
And you know, come to mymessenger, right?
And she goes oh, that's prettycool.
And I said but wait, youhaven't seen anything yet, right
?
So then I popped out my, got mytablet and I said check this
out.
And so I showed her a virtualtour.
(16:12):
She said, fuck, that's cool,pardon me.
She said that's pretty cool.
I said, said, hang on a minute,and I grabbed my cell phone and
I I then shot a photo via shotof the room and um and put her
into it all right.
So she said, wow, this is cool,we need this.
On trade me, I said great,awesome, right.
So?
So I think she so her name is f, I don't think she's not there
(16:34):
anymore, but anyway, she was acatalyst to help me and iStaging
get the iStaging VR tours ontoTradeMe and into realestateconz.
So Bindi Norwell was the CEO ofRinds at that stage and again I
(16:59):
had a meeting with her at oneof the Rinds do's and she
thought this is amazing, we'vegot to promote this.
So the three of us Rinds,myself, istaging formed a
partnership agreement to promoteVR tours to the agents and then
we did the same thing withTradeMe and that meant we could
(17:21):
take the URL, have it nativelyput on their listings and we
were going to go and sell thisto all the agents around the
country.
Unfortunately, the agents wetalked to a lot of agents and we
got, you know, not heaps onboard, we got enough on board to
(17:48):
make it work.
There was a lot of pushbackthis change, these virtual tours
.
You know we had a lot of.
I did a lot of work with theguys at Ray White and they were
amazing.
And then we ended up doing somework with PRD in Australia.
They were amazing as well, butwe just couldn't get the cut
(18:10):
through with the agents.
And you know, if you're goingto do tech, and you've got to
get volume to make it work,because the margins are pretty
small for the recurring margins,right.
So it got to a stage where Iwas chucking money at it.
We couldn't get the uptake andI and why am I doing this?
Why am I?
Why am I helping these guys out?
So, anyway, we're not goingback to trade me and having a
(18:31):
meeting with them and and seeingthe product managers there and
they were awesome.
And I remember having a meetingwith one of the guys and he said
to me one of the things withTrade Me is we have a massive
platform and they do, they stilldo, but we lose as soon as we
(18:53):
give the information over to theagent or to you know the lead,
we lose track.
We don't, we've got no idea.
We don't know what's happeningwith the buyer.
We don't know.
And we'd really like to.
And I said to Scott I said, youknow, I reckon I can build that
and I reckon I can build thatas an add-on for Trade Me and
(19:18):
I've got a name for it and youknow, you guys are doing a great
job on the front end.
This will be another tool.
And he sort of said, oh yeah,okay, and nothing ever happened
of it.
And I left that meeting and wentback to Hastings.
I thought, great, I'm going tocome up with an idea, a really
(19:40):
good idea.
So anyway, we saw this name andI thought, okay, looked at the
market.
I needed to figure out my cashflow as an agent because things
weren't that great.
You know, I was doing okay, butI needed some extra coin, some
extra cream, and so I've come upwith a software product and
(20:01):
we'll put a brand and we'll helpserve the private sale market.
So so the private sale market inNew Zealand is an agent with
their photo for right.
So all agents will be on thephone trying to get that listing
and I'd do it.
I'd ring them up and I'd say,hey, I'm Ben from First National
(20:22):
, how are you today?
Hey, how's your campaign going?
You know, blah, blah, blah, youknow.
Or hey, there's a cardboardsign down the road and I'd say,
oh, you know, I'll see if it'son trade me.
No.
Sign down the road and say, oh,you know, I'll see if it's on
trade me.
No, it's not great, I'm on thephone.
Here you go and I'll get themand I'm like, well, why don't we
try and have a product to caterfor them?
And no one was doing it then.
Not really well.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Home sale was doing it.
Just to be clear, this ispeople trying to sell their
property or house, but not forWithout an agent, privately.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Probably correct without an agent.
Yeah, correct, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Which there'll be different reasons for.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, correct, correct, absolutely, absolutely.
So different reasons for that.
So created this brand, createda very loose system, promoted it
, got a customer.
We did provide the service.
I checked with the REA.
I said to them hey look, it'sokay if we charge, if an agent
(21:19):
can charge a fee at the start ofa campaign and not a commission
on sale.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, and I was going to ask you about that actually
because it is quite tightlyregulated, right.
Yeah, it is.
There is what is it?
Two years imprisonment and 200penalty points if you start
rocking up and trying to sellproperties, but they didn't
threaten you that you was okay,because you essentially was just
a platform rather than actuallythe ones selling.
Is that what they?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
said Well, no, so in that case, in that first
instance, we just needed toverify with the REA that we
could charge them a fee at thestart and not a commission.
And they said, yes, you justhave to be upfront as to what
they're getting right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and wedid that.
So we did this campaign.
It was a failure.
They paid their money.
(22:05):
I had to split the money withthe agent because it couldn't go
to me directly because I was alicensed salesperson.
Okay, to me directly because Iwas a licensed salesperson.
Okay.
So any money I make as alicensed salesperson doing real
estate work has to go throughthe agent.
Yeah, yeah, doesn't matter what, it is right.
And, in a short story, firstNational said right, ben, fizbo
(22:33):
don't like it.
We love VR tours.
Fizbo don't like it, we love VRtours.
Fizbo's got to go, that's out,can't see you later.
And then they said to me youcan't do get Ben for 10 grand
anymore.
That's got to go.
We want you to charge acommission like everyone else.
And I went, oh okay, well, whatare we going to do differently?
And they said nothing.
(22:55):
And I said, okay, on that basis, oh okay, well, what are we
going to do differently.
And they said nothing.
And I said, okay, on that basis.
Oh, you know, I just calmeddown, went home my wife and I
were talking about money and thepressures of that and had a row
and I said, well, I'll just geta job then.
And then I got a job.
So I left real estate and I gotout.
Yeah, and then that was the backstory.
(23:18):
I had all these ideas, I hadall this tech.
I couldn't help real estateagents because they weren't
going to help me and I thought,well, if you're not going to
help me, I'll just go and dosomething for myself.
Okay, and so I got out, tookthis job.
I had six months of break fromthe commission and it was good
because I wasn't hungry, for Ihad an income stream and it was
(23:45):
good.
And then I thought, well, I'vegot to get this idea going.
So in the summer of 2019, 2020,I sat down with the low code,
found a low code platform that Icould build along, build my MVP
in.
So, for those of you who know,low code is a way to build
(24:08):
startups without coding and I'musing found a platform called
knackcom, which is an amazingplatform.
It allowed me to build and wecontinue using that platform for
Fizbo.
So we built it and we launchedour first campaign as lockdown
(24:34):
started.
First campaign as lockdownstarted, right and effectively.
What Fizbo is it's a completeend-to-end system that allows,
you know, us to market theproperty, to provide a hybrid
auction platform like TradeMe.
(24:54):
So TradeMe is a classifiedplatform, as you know.
It has, like many others aroundthe world.
We will have a lot.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
A country or, yeah, one of those other ones, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
A big marketing platform.
So Trade Me in New Zealanddon't do property auctions, and
there's a reason for that,because they're obviously making
a gazillion dollars out of realestate agents and then, unlike
TradeMe, we're an end-to-end.
(25:25):
So we see, we do all themarketing, we provide the
auction platform and then we seewhat's accepted and then we
hand that information over tothe solicitors who do the
transaction.
Okay, so that was the start ofit.
(25:46):
March 2020, the first campaigngoing to lockdown.
We get lots of views with thisnew house virtual tour views
amazing, you know, we come outof lockdown and we, you know,
this property goes, it sells inSeptember.
(26:08):
Obviously we couldn't, you know, fill the lockdown problems,
but that's no drama and wecontinue to grow from there.
So Keen we with a very smallplatform, we're not.
We're not massive.
I mean testing it here in hawksbay um, uh, what else?
I'm like?
Where am I?
Am I going?
Speaker 1 (26:28):
um, so, so the business at the moment, then?
So you've launched a platform.
Um, how are you kind of?
What's your kind of target interms of listings or sales, etc.
Did you, did you set yourselfany targets in terms of what you
was aiming for there and howare you doing?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
well, at the start I didn't really see any targets
because I was just riding by theseat of my pants.
You know like, yeah, you'rebootstrapping if you don't have
as a startup, who'sbootstrapping?
That's, you know, withoutfunding venture?
If you don't have as a startup,who's bootstrapping?
That's?
You know, without fundingventure capital, you don't have
the cash to chuck at yourmarketing.
No, you're just, you know,building it from cash flow.
(27:05):
So I was just trying to getevery opportunity I could.
You know, not having people cometo us under their own volition.
You know, not having peoplecome to us under their own
volition, doing social mediaposts and boosts and TikTok and
Facebook and social and standardmedia and door knocking and
word of mouth and referrals, andthen we are slowly starting to
(27:28):
grow the business.
Yeah, you know, one thing wehave built for that referral
network is a high.
You know, we built out a goodstrike rate, like when people
engage with what we're doing,because we are bridging the gap
(27:52):
between a private seller and areal estate agent okay, where
they are winning.
And if you, if you look at thelegislation, uh, here you know
we're working within it.
We have guidelines with the reaas to what we can and can't do,
and we respect the rea and thelaw, um and and the the
(28:20):
complaints.
So we have had complaints fromthe rea investigations, uh, and
they that they we've been testedfrom.
Who, though, is this from?
Speaker 1 (28:31):
agents.
You think yeah from agents.
Yeah, it was from agents.
They're not going to be toohappy, right?
Speaker 2 (28:34):
yeah, nah, so the first one I won't say yeah, from
agents, yeah, it was fromagents.
Well, they're not going to betoo happy, right?
Yeah, nah, so the first one.
I won't say where the first onewas from, because it was pretty
close to home.
Actually, all three of themwere pretty close to home.
I don't want to incriminatethose brands, but it wasn't the
brand, just the people.
It was the people in the brand,not the brand itself.
Yeah, so the REA said look, mrKing, we just want to
(28:56):
double-check what you're doing.
And I said, oh, you've had acomplaint.
Yes, verify what it was from.
Okay, sour grapes, I'll justhave to move on with it.
Yeah, yeah, satisfied thatwe're not doing unlicensed
trading and we're moving forward.
I think that, off the record.
They said that again.
(29:18):
This is off the record.
They like what we're trying todo.
Just have to make sure that wework from their guidelines.
Yeah, I suppose the keydifference between us and our
competitors is around the openhomes.
So, and unlike others, we givethe consumer a choice as to how
(29:42):
they use the platform.
So we're flexible.
You know you can use it in aDIY or a full service.
In a full service, you knowwe're providing open homes
support.
Okay, so that's something thatthe others aren't doing and it's
prepaid.
So, if you're, if you look atreal estate itself and we talk
(30:08):
about the roles in real estate,the first thing in real estate
at the moment is it's aboutmarketing right, it's marketing
and presentation of the property.
And all real estate platforms,systems, services, all of them
(30:28):
are all trying to attract peopleto the property number one, and
that's, that's our job.
And then we use software andsystems to allow the buyer and
the seller to pre-negotiate adeal so.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
So here's a question for you then how I'm sure
someone's asked you springreport, like when you're selling
a business and you're sellingyour home.
It's probably one of the mostemotive uh transactions you'll
make in your life, right?
Yes, and you'll have realestate agents there who get
trained, you know, as part oftheir uh.
You know, getting the licenseis that.
You know you have to askopening questions.
(31:06):
You can find you're matching,you know you're there, you're
asking all of those things thatI guess you get taught um, which
is sales, but it's also, youknow, it's just generally
account manager as well.
You just try and ask the rightquestions.
So do you give the support forthe, you know, for the people
that are actually selling theproperty themselves, to ask
those kind of questions?
And you know and and getfeedback, because you have
(31:27):
feedback's a big one, right,when you take that feedback and
it helps you adjust the listingfor future listings and stuff
like that.
So how do you deal with thatlack of humor element?
Well, it's more like, I think,the.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Okay, there's two sides of that.
So there's the buy side, so thesell side and the buy side.
So the sell side is the vendorand the legislation says that
you can help the seller withgeneral sales advice.
Okay, just general sales advice.
And they are doing theirresearch in the market and
(32:09):
they'll keep that informationquite close to their chest.
They are doing their researchin the market and they'll keep
that information quite close totheir chest.
So, as a salesperson, as anagent, when you're doing
consultative selling, as aformer agent, go and do
consultative selling to get thelisting.
They're not going to tell youeverything ever.
They never do Okay, so they'reonly going to tell you what you
(32:32):
need to do.
The job and the buyer is thesame.
So so the when you're lookingat the process of an agent does
during the campaign they are.
The role of an agent is to givefeedback to the seller from the
buyer, right.
So that feedback might not beaccurate, it might not be true,
(33:00):
it might just be hearsay, itmight be.
You know, if a buyer has cometo the property and they don't
like the property for whateverreason, they may not give the
agent, you know, they might justsay, oh, something nice and
frilly about it, rather thantelling them the truth because
they don't want to insultsomeone, right, yeah, but that's
(33:20):
what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
They're more likely to do that if they know it's the
person's home as well.
You're not going to go in andgo, oh, your wallpaper's crap.
Or you know, don't like thosecurtains, mate.
Or actually you know thelandscaping's awful.
So I just wondered if you'vecome up against that.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Not really.
I mean, people are prettyhonest.
I mean, you know, we've foundthat running open homes is that.
You know we give out the facts.
We've got a guideline book thatwe work with and we give the
buyer that factual informationand then they can.
If they want to give the sellerfeedback, they can do it
(34:00):
themselves through the portal,right, yeah, and we ask them to
do that, so we'll send it out assoon as we've registered them
in our system.
They get an email about Fizboand how Fizbo works,
instructions on how they can login and how they can give the
seller some feedback, if they're, you know, about the
presentation, about the price,about anything, and they can do
(34:24):
that on their own volition.
If they don't want to givefeedback, they don't have to and
we don't to give feedback.
But I have to and we don't.
We're not as a marketer, youknow, we're not um, handling
them on the phone trying to.
You know, uh, do that researchand we, we probably could, but
I'd rather do it online, youknow.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah, yeah, but I'd rather do it online, you know,
yeah, yeah, so how many listingsor sort of properties are you
selling at the moment?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Ben so, we've got we are successfully.
The system has helped peoplesell about $30 million worth of
property.
It's a small number, that's onehome in Auckland.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Right, yeah, one home in Auckland.
Yeah, one home in Auckland.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Yeah, so it's 42 successful sales from sellers.
Yeah, yeah, it's 42 successfulsales from sellers?
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, and you recently decided to franchise
the model as well, so to takethat model away.
Just tell me a bit more aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yeah, so franchising man, that's right.
Actually, we decided that howare we going to scale?
How are we?
You know, our original goal wasokay, Ben's going to create a
business called Fizbo and hewants to be across the country.
He had built a national brandand do it with something that's
(35:37):
national identity.
With a set of rules, which wehad, I didn't know how to go
about getting VC and thenthought, well, you know what's a
really good model.
So I tried to work out alicensing structure that was
formal, that we could have somegoverning standards to make sure
(36:02):
that everyone was following therules, and then settled on,
just by fluke, found a companycalled Teresa Murray Franchising
Consultants who provide a very,very robust franchise system
and with Scott Goodwin atGoodwin Turner Law, they do all
(36:22):
the franchise agreements so veryrobust.
So I went through the programwith them and after I'll talk
about three or four months wehad the all the documentation
formalized and then went to setabout to try and sell franchises
(36:42):
so someone wants to be afranchise.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
You know franchisee can't remember the term what are
they looking at kind of outlaywise, and what do they get for
their money with you guys?
Speaker 2 (36:55):
well.
So outlay.
So we're in that, depending onthe area.
So between 25 and 50 grand isthe ideal buying fee and it's
negotiable, that'll get them.
You know, training grand is theideal buy-in fee and it's
negotiable, that'll get themtraining, setup, systems,
hardware and that'll probablyinclude a bit of the outlay from
(37:20):
their own marketing.
But really the ongoing royaltycomponent is a couple of grand a
month but they'll get all thesoftware for that royalty
payment.
So Fizzblower system, email,all of the business systems,
excluding TradeMe, and that'llbe their fixed cost ongoings and
(37:44):
then from there they'll be ableto use the business system.
So if we look at our place inthe market, so when we sell a
listing, so we're doing a fullservice campaign and it's
regionally priced.
So it's regionally pricedbecause of our buying cost and
trade me.
So here in hawks bay, we, welay, we charge five grand for 30
(38:06):
days.
Okay, so they'll get thesignage, the brochures, their
open home support, their trademe, all their social media,
their Sunday open homes, alltheir viewing management stuff,
all the support in the 30 days.
In the second month they pay$1,500.
That's billed monthly.
(38:26):
And in the third month they pay$1,500.
That's billed monthly.
And in the third month they pay$1,200.
So a franchisee, in a standardresidential campaign, we're
making $7,700 plus GST.
Okay, yep, and that's paid bythe seller on a prepaid basis.
You know, I agree to typicallya 50% deposit and balance.
You know, between seven and 14days depending on the franchisee
(38:49):
, and then those other billedmonthly.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
And so, as you look to the future, ben, what's next
for Fizbo and yourself?
Speaker 2 (39:02):
So the future is the big.
There's a lot happening.
So we are changing from abusiness structure, we're adding
in other plants.
So you choose plants, we callthem and we'll see more about
that.
We want to take the AI, or thealgorithms, to another level.
(39:29):
So when we're talking aboutalgorithm and AI, we're talking
about the data sets andvaluation sets.
That's a five-year plan.
If we can do it in less, itwould be great.
So the algorithms currently usedby OneRoof Trade, me, homesco,
valuing property based on thestats only.
(39:52):
We want to build a tool usingcomputer vision that will take
into the condition of theproperty and that's something we
really, really want to buildout.
Okay, that's something wereally really want to build out,
okay, so, from an AI, you knowwe're talking about AI and how
(40:15):
that will disrupt businesses.
In a real estate perspective,it's already disrupting the
market, but from a humanperspective, we still believe
that humans need to help otherhumans to do the work of
marketing, because that's whereit's at.
(40:36):
Yeah, and the AI will help withthe contractual stuff and we,
you know FISBO is the start ofthat stuff and where, you know,
fizbo is the start of that, Ithink the the agent,
(40:57):
unfortunately, because of, youknow, the disruption of of.
Okay, so when we talk aboutdisruption of businesses, you
obviously inflation is reallyhigh and the cost of living is
high and everything's high andno one's spending any money and
everyone is justifying what itcosts to transact business or,
(41:18):
you know, to do things.
Real estate commission is high.
Why is commission high in aworld where there's so much
technology available?
And that'll be the big driverof change.
Okay, so I'm not saying thatagents will be completely gone.
(41:39):
Okay, I'm not saying that ourbusiness will be completely gone
and I'm not saying that thefree platforms in New Zealand,
in the New Zealand context, youcan't sell property for free.
You can't do that right now.
Yeah, and because of theconveyancing aspect.
(42:03):
So we're just going to look atplatforms like TradeMe.
You know that are an enteringplatform with handing over data
to people who need the legalaspect and people just focus on
marketing and I think that'll bethe big shift.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Ben, really appreciate you talking to me
this morning and, yeah, reallyglad we caught up.
And yeah, I have to dashbecause I'm doing a school run
today, which is another benefitof selling your business.
Oh right, yeah, so yeah andyeah, my wife's giving me evil
looks.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Oh, because it's.
What time is it?
It's 9 o'clock over there.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Oh yeah, we've got to get in there in the next one,
but in the next one.
But, ben, really appreciateyour time.
Loved hearing about yourbusiness and I'm sure people
listening will be really pleasedto hear about disruptors like
yourself in those industries,like real estate and others as
well.
And, yeah, wish you all thebest, looking forward to keeping
in touch and yeah stay in touch.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Thanks, Lee.
Thanks very much, mate Cheers.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Cheers.
So that's another great episode, done and dusted, as always.
I'd love to hear from you ifyou know anyone that's got a
really good story to tell abouthow they are or not living a
productive life.
If you want to get in touchwith me, please do so by my
website, wwwleestevensco.
That's wwwleestevensco.
(43:26):
You can email me, Lee atLeeStevensco, or get in touch on
LinkedIn, which is where I alsohang out In the meantime.
Have a good week.
Bye.
Welcome to the Time and Motion podcast with me, your
host, lee Stevens.
For over 25 years, I've workedwith businesses all over the
world to improve the technologyand the people within them.
In this podcast, I share someof my experiences and I chat to
guests who generously sharetheir stories of how to or, in
some cases, how to live aproductive life.
I hope you enjoy the show.
(00:28):
So in this week's episode Icaught up with Ben Keehan, who
is an entrepreneur and he isdisrupting the real estate
industry both in New Zealand andAustralia.
(00:50):
Ben has decided that he wants touse technology and AI and all
the cool tools we talk about onthis show to revolutionize an
industry.
He's been getting great guns.
I've known Ben probably justshort of two years now.
I used to bump into him at allthe tech conferences and just
thought he'd be a really goodguest to have on the show for
someone who can see anopportunity and can use
technology to improveproductivity, not just in his
(01:12):
business but in an industry.
So really enjoyed this one Onwith the show, ben Keehan, good
morning.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
G'day Lee, how are you?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
I'm very well thanks.
Welcome to the Time of Motionpodcast.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Thanks for making the time to jump on today, Thanks,
mate, it's an honour actually tobe asked to come and have a
chat with you.
You know, to be a listener isone thing, but to have the
honour to be on a podcast ispretty amazing, especially for a
Kiwi boy on the east coast inHawke's Bay, a small provincial
(01:48):
town.
Being asked to be on aninternational podcast is pretty
cool.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So you're in sunny New Zealand.
How's the winter treating youover there?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
We had a doozy frost this morning.
Probably about one degree,maybe minus one Celsius, so
pretty cold.
Lots of ice on the windscreenout there.
Got the fire going.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Pretty cold, but a really beautiful day, I'll get a
bit soft.
We moved to Brisbane inSeptember and I think it gets
down to about 17 now 16, and weput the jumpers on because it's
a bit cold.
So yeah, I think it's how lifechanges.
So, ben, we met at the SASconference, the Southern SAS in
(02:29):
Auckland.
I think it was a couple ofyears ago, and you were telling
me about your business there andit always kind of stuck in my
mind.
You know it's good seeing yourprogress on LinkedIn.
But yeah, just for thelisteners, before we kind of get
into it, just explain kind ofwhat your business is and, I
suppose, how it all came about.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
So I have a business called Fizbo, that's for
Internet Sideway Owner, or Fizbofor short.
Well, a bit of a long story.
I don't think any good ideasare going to start somewhere.
But effectively I was workingin real estate Back in 2015,.
(03:10):
I got shoulder tapped by aHarcourt's owner here and said
hey, ben, come along and do realestate.
You know you'd be really good.
You've had a background intelco and tech.
Um, you know, you've been aprospector and a hunter and I
think you should make you'd makea really good real estate agent
.
And I at the first I I said tohim oh, nah, I don't really want
(03:35):
to do real estate.
Um, I've, you know, I've justhad a business I sold and I
didn't really know what I was.
I didn't really trust realestate agents to a degree.
And I said to him look, I'vebeen, I've actually just taken a
job on selling photocopiers,right, and I thought that was a
(03:58):
good, honest thing and had asalary.
But I said to him, I said, look, if it doesn't work out, I'll
come back to you, right.
And so I went off and do thisphotocopier sales job and shit,
it was hard, it was bloody hard,really really hard Photocopiers
.
You know, you've got long-termcontracts and they roll over and
(04:19):
it's dog-eat-dog and it was anumbers game and it was really
hard breaking into a market inHawke's Bay and had a sales
manager that was a bit of ascoundrel.
So we had a falling out and Isaid, no, I'm out, I'm off, I'm
not doing this.
And I chucked it in and I rangup the franchise owner here.
(04:41):
I said, right, come on in, I'min, let's go and do this.
So we went through theirtraining.
I've spent, you know, threemonths doing my ticket.
I'm not a very fast learner,you know.
I wasn't a very good kid atschool.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, so once again for people listening, maybe
overseas real estate, which is astate agency in the UK, as we
call it, is licensed over here,right, so you can't just rock up
and I know that I think they'retrying to make inroads to
change that in the UK and othercountries.
But yeah, like a lot ofcountries, you can't just rock
up and sell houses.
You have to do some exams,which is what we're talking
(05:17):
about right, yeah, so you getyour.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
You call it your salesperson's license.
So there's some accredited NDQAtraining for that and then,
once you've attained that, youcan then work as a salesperson
for a license holder and thelicense holder in this case was
Harcourt, the local franchiseowner, and you would, you know.
So I did my training, sat intheir offices and learned from
(05:43):
the fellow agents around me andgot on really well with them,
learned heaps from them, got mylicense, went out and did
prospecting, because you have to.
You know there's no freelunches in real estate.
I mean, you might get we cantalk about how that works but
(06:05):
effectively you've got aprospect to find business and I
was a good prospect there.
I'd follow up on hunches, I'dhave conversations with people
and all the good agents aredoing it.
So the hard prospecting right,got my first listing and my
sales manager helped me throughthat and it was awesome.
(06:26):
I got my first paycheck and Ihad a retainer.
So when I did my training I waspaid a small retainer, thinking
a normal retainer.
You're paid a retainer to dothe work, do the training, and
it's just like wages.
Well, in actual fact it wasn'twages and I got clawed back from
my first commission, so I was alittle bit disappointed.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
It's a sub.
They subbed you, basically Asub me.
Yeah, well, it's like they giveyou a loan.
They treat it like a loan, theydo.
They do treat it like a loan,yeah, they do, yeah.
So I have to ask, because I'msure a lot of people listening,
and you know, myself included,right, real estate is probably
not the most, um, what's theword?
(07:10):
Uh, I won't say.
It's the one that's held, heldone, held in the highest esteem
by a lot of people and fordifferent reasons, probably,
like car salesman and recruitmajor, the sales guys, right, so
what was your kind of, you know, 60-second take on real estate?
You know, are all of thosecliches true, you know, are they
(07:32):
unscrupulous?
And, interestingly, by law youcan't right, which I've found
out recently.
You can't just do all thatunscrupulous stuff which people
claim that you do.
So, but, yeah, any kind ofright with the industry.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Well, I think, do so, but yeah, kind of any, any kind
of right of the industry.
Well, I think, I think I look,I'm not, I'm not anti-agent,
right?
So so don't, don't, don't, youknow, sometimes you know, a few
years I have been because we cango, we'll go through that.
Um, on the outside it looksglossy, right, uh, but on the
inside it is dog, egg, dog,right.
(08:07):
And.
And on a number of occasionswhen I was at harcourt, I did
have situations that um arosewithin the sales team.
Uh, that uh was were terrible,you know, and uh and dog-eat-dog
, so.
(08:28):
And I think the reason for thatis and I think, if you look at
what the REA in New Zealand hasdone and I'm an advocate for
them, I'm not licensed now theREA changed the Act in New
Zealand in 2008 with the goal totry and clean up the industry
(08:49):
and keep everybody on the sametrack, and the reason for that
is, if you read between thelines, is that real estate is a
commission business.
Okay, so the traditional realestate model is commission-based
, so you don't make any moneyuntil you make a commission, and
if you're hungry for acommission, the unscrupulous
(09:11):
behavior comes out.
Okay.
And if you look at New Zealandper capita, we've got the
highest number of real estateagents per capita and I think in
Australia it's much lower.
I think in New Zealand it wassomething.
If you take 5 million dividedby 15,000, what do you come out
(09:32):
with a stupid ratio, and theratio in Australia is much lower
.
So, commission-based, whenyou're doing listing
presentations, you're competingpredominantly.
You're competing with otheragents.
A win the same with agents inyour office and with other
(09:53):
brands and there's only onelisting so that property can
only be sold by one person.
And you know people will do andyou know people will do.
The worst will come out onpeople to get the listing in
some cases.
And new agents.
In my office, when I was a newagent, we were taken advantage
(10:18):
of by older agents.
Okay, and one particular guy Iwon't name him because he's no
longer in the game.
He was pretty and I'm prettyemotional about that because at
the time it hurt me.
Yeah, but it is mate, it is andyou don't see that.
Because you don't see that?
(10:39):
Because when the you noticethat agents they're always
recruiting, they're alwaystuning for your staff.
Why are they tuning for yourstaff?
For they're tuning because it'shard.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
It's hard to make money, yeah, and it's
interesting because the cut wewere talking about is just
offline, but it's interestingthe cut that they take as well,
right, which I know that kind ofvaries depending on the agents.
But you kind of look at thatand go, if anyone who's kind of
run their own business wouldlook at it and go, well, why
would you do it?
So you do all the work, you getthe listings, you find the
(11:13):
clients, you sell the stuff andthen you have to give anywhere
between 20% and 60% of that tothe and you just look at it and
go, why, why, why would you dothat?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Just explain that a little bit more, so for those
who don't know about the split.
So at Harcourt in New ZealandI'm not saying it's the same
everywhere, but when I startedit was 50-50.
10% went to HQ what I was told45% went to the office and then
the remaining 45% was splitbetween the seller and the.
(11:48):
I think that's a reallyinteresting point, right.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Sorry to interrupt there, because a lot of people
who kind of you hear about realestate agents, you think that
money is going straight in theirpocket and they might play a
small fee margin to the brand.
But it's actually the other wayaround, right, and I think a
lot of people don't realise that.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Some brands.
I know Ray White, they do it.
They allow you.
Again, this is from four yearsago.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I'mhappy to.
If Ray White wants to correctme, I'm happy.
So they were 80%.
But you had to pay a monthlycharge.
(12:29):
So the sales business, a seatcharge, it was called.
Yeah, you paid that seat chargeevery month.
They'd give you a higher splitand I'm thinking, well, why
would I pay you two grand amonth for the seat every month,
regardless of the outcome?
To me it just again was.
(12:53):
You know, I don't know, it justdidn't work out.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I think you're paying for their back office systems,
though, right, and I think thatfor a lot of people that maybe
aren't tech savvy and they justlook at it and go, it's too hard
.
But you know as well as I doit's not that hard to set up a
CRM, set up your finance systems.
Yeah, you can, with four orfive systems, you've pretty got
it made.
But you know, when you don'tknow, that you it's probably,
you know, preying on the unknowna little extent on on their
(13:26):
part, but, um, yeah, interesting, you know, kind of that, that
model which I think you know,when you, you don't know, you're
just a consumer.
Um, that said, I think, um, wehad two very um, uh, husband and
wife team sold our house in newzealand, you know, through the
harcourt brand, and they werebrilliant, you know.
And they, they tapped into theirnetwork and and you just look
at that when you're selling yourhouse, you go all right, okay,
that's um, you know a smallmargin, I'm prepared to pay
because the price they got andthe buyers they got Right, and
(13:48):
so I think that's where you mayhave some opinions that which
will come on in a minute but, um, yeah, but they, they, I think
(14:08):
you know I could name I don'tknow, in my local area I could
probably name 15 really goodpeople who I know are just
genuinely good people.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Great, awesome, yeah yeah, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
So let's get on to the business.
So you was working in realestate.
I think you'd been through acouple of that model of having
to give margins away and gettinga bit enchanted I think is the
what the word disenchanted withwhat was going on.
So what was the trigger momentthat that you know made you want
to set up a business, and andhow did it happen?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
um through chance.
Uh, it was a.
It was a striking event.
So so I was working for firstnational um I'd I I'd started
mucking around with VR, vr toursand this is a bit of a long
story but you know you can cutme out if you like, but so,
anyways, I was promotingiStaging's VR tours and I was
(15:06):
using them to promote ourlisting as a tool.
And we had a meeting with therep from Trade.
Me was in the office at FirstNational and Steve my bosses
were talking to her and I wasinvited to the meeting.
I did my rock down and saidG'day, how are you?
And she looked at me and shesaid, oh, you're that guy that's
(15:29):
got that funny thing on yourprofile photo.
And I said, yeah, yeah, that'sme.
And I said do you know?
Do you know what it is?
And she said nah, and I saidwhat it was.
It was a facebook messenger,had a qr code and you could put
your, your, your profile photoin the you know my mug inside
(15:50):
the qr code.
So I used that on my listingswith the hope that someone would
scan it.
And you know, come to mymessenger, right?
And she goes oh, that's prettycool.
And I said but wait, youhaven't seen anything yet, right
?
So then I popped out my, got mytablet and I said check this
out.
And so I showed her a virtualtour.
(16:12):
She said, fuck, that's cool,pardon me.
She said that's pretty cool.
I said, said, hang on a minute,and I grabbed my cell phone and
I I then shot a photo via shotof the room and um and put her
into it all right.
So she said, wow, this is cool,we need this.
On trade me, I said great,awesome, right.
So?
So I think she so her name is f, I don't think she's not there
(16:34):
anymore, but anyway, she was acatalyst to help me and iStaging
get the iStaging VR tours ontoTradeMe and into realestateconz.
So Bindi Norwell was the CEO ofRinds at that stage and again I
(16:59):
had a meeting with her at oneof the Rinds do's and she
thought this is amazing, we'vegot to promote this.
So the three of us Rinds,myself, istaging formed a
partnership agreement to promoteVR tours to the agents and then
we did the same thing withTradeMe and that meant we could
(17:21):
take the URL, have it nativelyput on their listings and we
were going to go and sell thisto all the agents around the
country.
Unfortunately, the agents wetalked to a lot of agents and we
got, you know, not heaps onboard, we got enough on board to
(17:48):
make it work.
There was a lot of pushbackthis change, these virtual tours
.
You know we had a lot of.
I did a lot of work with theguys at Ray White and they were
amazing.
And then we ended up doing somework with PRD in Australia.
They were amazing as well, butwe just couldn't get the cut
(18:10):
through with the agents.
And you know, if you're goingto do tech, and you've got to
get volume to make it work,because the margins are pretty
small for the recurring margins,right.
So it got to a stage where Iwas chucking money at it.
We couldn't get the uptake andI and why am I doing this?
Why am I?
Why am I helping these guys out?
So, anyway, we're not goingback to trade me and having a
(18:31):
meeting with them and and seeingthe product managers there and
they were awesome.
And I remember having a meetingwith one of the guys and he said
to me one of the things withTrade Me is we have a massive
platform and they do, they stilldo, but we lose as soon as we
(18:53):
give the information over to theagent or to you know the lead,
we lose track.
We don't, we've got no idea.
We don't know what's happeningwith the buyer.
We don't know.
And we'd really like to.
And I said to Scott I said, youknow, I reckon I can build that
and I reckon I can build thatas an add-on for Trade Me and
(19:18):
I've got a name for it and youknow, you guys are doing a great
job on the front end.
This will be another tool.
And he sort of said, oh yeah,okay, and nothing ever happened
of it.
And I left that meeting and wentback to Hastings.
I thought, great, I'm going tocome up with an idea, a really
(19:40):
good idea.
So anyway, we saw this name andI thought, okay, looked at the
market.
I needed to figure out my cashflow as an agent because things
weren't that great.
You know, I was doing okay, butI needed some extra coin, some
extra cream, and so I've come upwith a software product and
(20:01):
we'll put a brand and we'll helpserve the private sale market.
So so the private sale market inNew Zealand is an agent with
their photo for right.
So all agents will be on thephone trying to get that listing
and I'd do it.
I'd ring them up and I'd say,hey, I'm Ben from First National
(20:22):
, how are you today?
Hey, how's your campaign going?
You know, blah, blah, blah, youknow.
Or hey, there's a cardboardsign down the road and I'd say,
oh, you know, I'll see if it'son trade me.
No.
Sign down the road and say, oh,you know, I'll see if it's on
trade me.
No, it's not great, I'm on thephone.
Here you go and I'll get themand I'm like, well, why don't we
try and have a product to caterfor them?
And no one was doing it then.
Not really well.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Home sale was doing it.
Just to be clear, this ispeople trying to sell their
property or house, but not forWithout an agent, privately.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Probably correct without an agent.
Yeah, correct, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Which there'll be different reasons for.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, correct, correct, absolutely, absolutely.
So different reasons for that.
So created this brand, createda very loose system, promoted it
, got a customer.
We did provide the service.
I checked with the REA.
I said to them hey look, it'sokay if we charge, if an agent
(21:19):
can charge a fee at the start ofa campaign and not a commission
on sale.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, and I was going to ask you about that actually
because it is quite tightlyregulated, right.
Yeah, it is.
There is what is it?
Two years imprisonment and 200penalty points if you start
rocking up and trying to sellproperties, but they didn't
threaten you that you was okay,because you essentially was just
a platform rather than actuallythe ones selling.
Is that what they?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
said Well, no, so in that case, in that first
instance, we just needed toverify with the REA that we
could charge them a fee at thestart and not a commission.
And they said, yes, you justhave to be upfront as to what
they're getting right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and wedid that.
So we did this campaign.
It was a failure.
They paid their money.
(22:05):
I had to split the money withthe agent because it couldn't go
to me directly because I was alicensed salesperson.
Okay, to me directly because Iwas a licensed salesperson.
Okay.
So any money I make as alicensed salesperson doing real
estate work has to go throughthe agent.
Yeah, yeah, doesn't matter what, it is right.
And, in a short story, firstNational said right, ben, fizbo
(22:33):
don't like it.
We love VR tours.
Fizbo don't like it, we love VRtours.
Fizbo's got to go, that's out,can't see you later.
And then they said to me youcan't do get Ben for 10 grand
anymore.
That's got to go.
We want you to charge acommission like everyone else.
And I went, oh okay, well, whatare we going to do differently?
And they said nothing.
(22:55):
And I said, okay, on that basis, oh okay, well, what are we
going to do differently.
And they said nothing.
And I said, okay, on that basis.
Oh, you know, I just calmeddown, went home my wife and I
were talking about money and thepressures of that and had a row
and I said, well, I'll just geta job then.
And then I got a job.
So I left real estate and I gotout.
Yeah, and then that was the backstory.
(23:18):
I had all these ideas, I hadall this tech.
I couldn't help real estateagents because they weren't
going to help me and I thought,well, if you're not going to
help me, I'll just go and dosomething for myself.
Okay, and so I got out, tookthis job.
I had six months of break fromthe commission and it was good
because I wasn't hungry, for Ihad an income stream and it was
(23:45):
good.
And then I thought, well, I'vegot to get this idea going.
So in the summer of 2019, 2020,I sat down with the low code,
found a low code platform that Icould build along, build my MVP
in.
So, for those of you who know,low code is a way to build
(24:08):
startups without coding and I'musing found a platform called
knackcom, which is an amazingplatform.
It allowed me to build and wecontinue using that platform for
Fizbo.
So we built it and we launchedour first campaign as lockdown
(24:34):
started.
First campaign as lockdownstarted, right and effectively.
What Fizbo is it's a completeend-to-end system that allows,
you know, us to market theproperty, to provide a hybrid
auction platform like TradeMe.
(24:54):
So TradeMe is a classifiedplatform, as you know.
It has, like many others aroundthe world.
We will have a lot.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
A country or, yeah, one of those other ones, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
A big marketing platform.
So Trade Me in New Zealanddon't do property auctions, and
there's a reason for that,because they're obviously making
a gazillion dollars out of realestate agents and then, unlike
TradeMe, we're an end-to-end.
(25:25):
So we see, we do all themarketing, we provide the
auction platform and then we seewhat's accepted and then we
hand that information over tothe solicitors who do the
transaction.
Okay, so that was the start ofit.
(25:46):
March 2020, the first campaigngoing to lockdown.
We get lots of views with thisnew house virtual tour views
amazing, you know, we come outof lockdown and we, you know,
this property goes, it sells inSeptember.
(26:08):
Obviously we couldn't, you know, fill the lockdown problems,
but that's no drama and wecontinue to grow from there.
So Keen we with a very smallplatform, we're not.
We're not massive.
I mean testing it here in hawksbay um, uh, what else?
I'm like?
Where am I?
Am I going?
Speaker 1 (26:28):
um, so, so the business at the moment, then?
So you've launched a platform.
Um, how are you kind of?
What's your kind of target interms of listings or sales, etc.
Did you, did you set yourselfany targets in terms of what you
was aiming for there and howare you doing?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
well, at the start I didn't really see any targets
because I was just riding by theseat of my pants.
You know like, yeah, you'rebootstrapping if you don't have
as a startup, who'sbootstrapping?
That's, you know, withoutfunding venture?
If you don't have as a startup,who's bootstrapping?
That's?
You know, without fundingventure capital, you don't have
the cash to chuck at yourmarketing.
No, you're just, you know,building it from cash flow.
(27:05):
So I was just trying to getevery opportunity I could.
You know, not having people cometo us under their own volition.
You know, not having peoplecome to us under their own
volition, doing social mediaposts and boosts and TikTok and
Facebook and social and standardmedia and door knocking and
word of mouth and referrals, andthen we are slowly starting to
(27:28):
grow the business.
Yeah, you know, one thing wehave built for that referral
network is a high.
You know, we built out a goodstrike rate, like when people
engage with what we're doing,because we are bridging the gap
(27:52):
between a private seller and areal estate agent okay, where
they are winning.
And if you, if you look at thelegislation, uh, here you know
we're working within it.
We have guidelines with the reaas to what we can and can't do,
and we respect the rea and thelaw, um and and the the
(28:20):
complaints.
So we have had complaints fromthe rea investigations, uh, and
they that they we've been testedfrom.
Who, though, is this from?
Speaker 1 (28:31):
agents.
You think yeah from agents.
Yeah, it was from agents.
They're not going to be toohappy, right?
Speaker 2 (28:34):
yeah, nah, so the first one I won't say yeah, from
agents, yeah, it was fromagents.
Well, they're not going to betoo happy, right?
Yeah, nah, so the first one.
I won't say where the first onewas from, because it was pretty
close to home.
Actually, all three of themwere pretty close to home.
I don't want to incriminatethose brands, but it wasn't the
brand, just the people.
It was the people in the brand,not the brand itself.
Yeah, so the REA said look, mrKing, we just want to
(28:56):
double-check what you're doing.
And I said, oh, you've had acomplaint.
Yes, verify what it was from.
Okay, sour grapes, I'll justhave to move on with it.
Yeah, yeah, satisfied thatwe're not doing unlicensed
trading and we're moving forward.
I think that, off the record.
They said that again.
(29:18):
This is off the record.
They like what we're trying todo.
Just have to make sure that wework from their guidelines.
Yeah, I suppose the keydifference between us and our
competitors is around the openhomes.
So, and unlike others, we givethe consumer a choice as to how
(29:42):
they use the platform.
So we're flexible.
You know you can use it in aDIY or a full service.
In a full service, you knowwe're providing open homes
support.
Okay, so that's something thatthe others aren't doing and it's
prepaid.
So, if you're, if you look atreal estate itself and we talk
(30:08):
about the roles in real estate,the first thing in real estate
at the moment is it's aboutmarketing right, it's marketing
and presentation of the property.
And all real estate platforms,systems, services, all of them
(30:28):
are all trying to attract peopleto the property number one, and
that's, that's our job.
And then we use software andsystems to allow the buyer and
the seller to pre-negotiate adeal so.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
So here's a question for you then how I'm sure
someone's asked you springreport, like when you're selling
a business and you're sellingyour home.
It's probably one of the mostemotive uh transactions you'll
make in your life, right?
Yes, and you'll have realestate agents there who get
trained, you know, as part oftheir uh.
You know, getting the licenseis that.
You know you have to askopening questions.
(31:06):
You can find you're matching,you know you're there, you're
asking all of those things thatI guess you get taught um, which
is sales, but it's also, youknow, it's just generally
account manager as well.
You just try and ask the rightquestions.
So do you give the support forthe, you know, for the people
that are actually selling theproperty themselves, to ask
those kind of questions?
And you know and and getfeedback, because you have
(31:27):
feedback's a big one, right,when you take that feedback and
it helps you adjust the listingfor future listings and stuff
like that.
So how do you deal with thatlack of humor element?
Well, it's more like, I think,the.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Okay, there's two sides of that.
So there's the buy side, so thesell side and the buy side.
So the sell side is the vendorand the legislation says that
you can help the seller withgeneral sales advice.
Okay, just general sales advice.
And they are doing theirresearch in the market and
(32:09):
they'll keep that informationquite close to their chest.
They are doing their researchin the market and they'll keep
that information quite close totheir chest.
So, as a salesperson, as anagent, when you're doing
consultative selling, as aformer agent, go and do
consultative selling to get thelisting.
They're not going to tell youeverything ever.
They never do Okay, so they'reonly going to tell you what you
(32:32):
need to do.
The job and the buyer is thesame.
So so the when you're lookingat the process of an agent does
during the campaign they are.
The role of an agent is to givefeedback to the seller from the
buyer, right.
So that feedback might not beaccurate, it might not be true,
(33:00):
it might just be hearsay, itmight be.
You know, if a buyer has cometo the property and they don't
like the property for whateverreason, they may not give the
agent, you know, they might justsay, oh, something nice and
frilly about it, rather thantelling them the truth because
they don't want to insultsomeone, right, yeah, but that's
(33:20):
what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
They're more likely to do that if they know it's the
person's home as well.
You're not going to go in andgo, oh, your wallpaper's crap.
Or you know, don't like thosecurtains, mate.
Or actually you know thelandscaping's awful.
So I just wondered if you'vecome up against that.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Not really.
I mean, people are prettyhonest.
I mean, you know, we've foundthat running open homes is that.
You know we give out the facts.
We've got a guideline book thatwe work with and we give the
buyer that factual informationand then they can.
If they want to give the sellerfeedback, they can do it
(34:00):
themselves through the portal,right, yeah, and we ask them to
do that, so we'll send it out assoon as we've registered them
in our system.
They get an email about Fizboand how Fizbo works,
instructions on how they can login and how they can give the
seller some feedback, if they're, you know, about the
presentation, about the price,about anything, and they can do
(34:24):
that on their own volition.
If they don't want to givefeedback, they don't have to and
we don't to give feedback.
But I have to and we don't.
We're not as a marketer, youknow, we're not um, handling
them on the phone trying to.
You know, uh, do that researchand we, we probably could, but
I'd rather do it online, youknow.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah, yeah, but I'd rather do it online, you know,
yeah, yeah, so how many listingsor sort of properties are you
selling at the moment?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Ben so, we've got we are successfully.
The system has helped peoplesell about $30 million worth of
property.
It's a small number, that's onehome in Auckland.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Right, yeah, one home in Auckland.
Yeah, one home in Auckland.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Yeah, so it's 42 successful sales from sellers.
Yeah, yeah, it's 42 successfulsales from sellers?
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, and you recently decided to franchise
the model as well, so to takethat model away.
Just tell me a bit more aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yeah, so franchising man, that's right.
Actually, we decided that howare we going to scale?
How are we?
You know, our original goal wasokay, Ben's going to create a
business called Fizbo and hewants to be across the country.
He had built a national brandand do it with something that's
(35:37):
national identity.
With a set of rules, which wehad, I didn't know how to go
about getting VC and thenthought, well, you know what's a
really good model.
So I tried to work out alicensing structure that was
formal, that we could have somegoverning standards to make sure
(36:02):
that everyone was following therules, and then settled on,
just by fluke, found a companycalled Teresa Murray Franchising
Consultants who provide a very,very robust franchise system
and with Scott Goodwin atGoodwin Turner Law, they do all
(36:22):
the franchise agreements so veryrobust.
So I went through the programwith them and after I'll talk
about three or four months wehad the all the documentation
formalized and then went to setabout to try and sell franchises
(36:42):
so someone wants to be afranchise.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
You know franchisee can't remember the term what are
they looking at kind of outlaywise, and what do they get for
their money with you guys?
Speaker 2 (36:55):
well.
So outlay.
So we're in that, depending onthe area.
So between 25 and 50 grand isthe ideal buying fee and it's
negotiable, that'll get them.
You know, training grand is theideal buy-in fee and it's
negotiable, that'll get themtraining, setup, systems,
hardware and that'll probablyinclude a bit of the outlay from
(37:20):
their own marketing.
But really the ongoing royaltycomponent is a couple of grand a
month but they'll get all thesoftware for that royalty
payment.
So Fizzblower system, email,all of the business systems,
excluding TradeMe, and that'llbe their fixed cost ongoings and
(37:44):
then from there they'll be ableto use the business system.
So if we look at our place inthe market, so when we sell a
listing, so we're doing a fullservice campaign and it's
regionally priced.
So it's regionally pricedbecause of our buying cost and
trade me.
So here in hawks bay, we, welay, we charge five grand for 30
(38:06):
days.
Okay, so they'll get thesignage, the brochures, their
open home support, their trademe, all their social media,
their Sunday open homes, alltheir viewing management stuff,
all the support in the 30 days.
In the second month they pay$1,500.
That's billed monthly.
(38:26):
And in the third month they pay$1,500.
That's billed monthly.
And in the third month they pay$1,200.
So a franchisee, in a standardresidential campaign, we're
making $7,700 plus GST.
Okay, yep, and that's paid bythe seller on a prepaid basis.
You know, I agree to typicallya 50% deposit and balance.
You know, between seven and 14days depending on the franchisee
(38:49):
, and then those other billedmonthly.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
And so, as you look to the future, ben, what's next
for Fizbo and yourself?
Speaker 2 (39:02):
So the future is the big.
There's a lot happening.
So we are changing from abusiness structure, we're adding
in other plants.
So you choose plants, we callthem and we'll see more about
that.
We want to take the AI, or thealgorithms, to another level.
(39:29):
So when we're talking aboutalgorithm and AI, we're talking
about the data sets andvaluation sets.
That's a five-year plan.
If we can do it in less, itwould be great.
So the algorithms currently usedby OneRoof Trade, me, homesco,
valuing property based on thestats only.
(39:52):
We want to build a tool usingcomputer vision that will take
into the condition of theproperty and that's something we
really, really want to buildout.
Okay, that's something wereally really want to build out,
okay, so, from an AI, you knowwe're talking about AI and how
(40:15):
that will disrupt businesses.
In a real estate perspective,it's already disrupting the
market, but from a humanperspective, we still believe
that humans need to help otherhumans to do the work of
marketing, because that's whereit's at.
(40:36):
Yeah, and the AI will help withthe contractual stuff and we,
you know FISBO is the start ofthat stuff and where, you know,
fizbo is the start of that, Ithink the the agent,
(40:57):
unfortunately, because of, youknow, the disruption of of.
Okay, so when we talk aboutdisruption of businesses, you
obviously inflation is reallyhigh and the cost of living is
high and everything's high andno one's spending any money and
everyone is justifying what itcosts to transact business or,
(41:18):
you know, to do things.
Real estate commission is high.
Why is commission high in aworld where there's so much
technology available?
And that'll be the big driverof change.
Okay, so I'm not saying thatagents will be completely gone.
(41:39):
Okay, I'm not saying that ourbusiness will be completely gone
and I'm not saying that thefree platforms in New Zealand,
in the New Zealand context, youcan't sell property for free.
You can't do that right now.
Yeah, and because of theconveyancing aspect.
(42:03):
So we're just going to look atplatforms like TradeMe.
You know that are an enteringplatform with handing over data
to people who need the legalaspect and people just focus on
marketing and I think that'll bethe big shift.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Ben, really appreciate you talking to me
this morning and, yeah, reallyglad we caught up.
And yeah, I have to dashbecause I'm doing a school run
today, which is another benefitof selling your business.
Oh right, yeah, so yeah andyeah, my wife's giving me evil
looks.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Oh, because it's.
What time is it?
It's 9 o'clock over there.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Oh yeah, we've got to get in there in the next one,
but in the next one.
But, ben, really appreciateyour time.
Loved hearing about yourbusiness and I'm sure people
listening will be really pleasedto hear about disruptors like
yourself in those industries,like real estate and others as
well.
And, yeah, wish you all thebest, looking forward to keeping
in touch and yeah stay in touch.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Thanks, Lee.
Thanks very much, mate Cheers.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Cheers.
So that's another great episode, done and dusted, as always.
I'd love to hear from you ifyou know anyone that's got a
really good story to tell abouthow they are or not living a
productive life.
If you want to get in touchwith me, please do so by my
website, wwwleestevensco.
That's wwwleestevensco.
(43:26):
You can email me, Lee atLeeStevensco, or get in touch on
LinkedIn, which is where I alsohang out In the meantime.
Have a good week.
Bye.
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