June 24, 2022 • 39 mins
Can a relationship survive a DIY tiny house build? Cassie and Richard Saude of Lionheart Homes built their own tiny home and took their passion for the tiny house community to start their own tiny home building business. They now build houses for others, using their knowledge and insights as tiny home dwellers to provide additional insight to their clients in the design and construction process.
Full show notes and images at thetinyhouse.net/219
In This Episode:
- Making tiny comfortable for full-time living
- How consultants are helping tiny house builders scale
- What to ask your builder before you sign the contract
- The perspective their DIY build gave their business
- Financing options for tiny homes
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cassie Saude (00:00):
Why on earth haven't we just started doing
(00:03):
tiny homes. That's where thepassion is. We have the full
skill set. We, you know, havedone so much research into this
and are just so passionate aboutthe community. So...
Ethan Waldman (00:16):
Welcome to the Tiny House Lifestyle Podcast,
the show where you learn how toplan, build and live the tiny
lifestyle. I'm your host, EthanWaldman, and this is episode 219
with the Saudes. Richard andCassie Saude met and quickly
built a tiny house together, andtheir relationship survived. So
we start the conversationtalking about how building a
(00:37):
house together can can bestressful but wasn't for them,
and then how they transitionedfrom living tiny to actually
starting a professional tinyhouse company, where they're now
building tiny houses for others.
In this conversation, we'll talkabout how being a tiny home
dweller creates a differentperspective as a professional
builder and helps them provideadditional insight to their
(00:59):
clients in the design andconstruction process. I hope you
stick around.
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(01:19):
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(01:40):
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(02:06):
All right, I am here with theSaudes. Richard and Cassie Saude
have a classic love story -sonaturally, it started on Tinder.
They bonded over their mutuallove of the outdoors, tiny
homes, playing music, andvegetarianism. They united to
build their DIY tiny house, tiedthe know, and then turned their
lifestyle into their business.
Richard brought a lifetime ofconstruction experience and
(02:27):
Cassie a history of managementand customer service. Cassie is
the realist and the manager ofthe mundane. Richard is the
dreamer and achiever. They areboth artists at heart. As you
can tell this duo eats, sleepsand works tiny. Richard and
Cassie, welcome to the show.
Cassie Saude (02:45):
Thanks for having us, Ethan. We're super excited
to be here.
Richard Saude (02:48):
Thanks for having us.
Ethan Waldman (02:49):
Yeah, glad to have you both here. So I'm
curious, because there's an oldsaying that says, "Build a
house, lose your spouse." Wasthe relationship like you knew
it was the one when yousuccessfully built a house
together? Or was there? And Wasthere ever any question?
Richard Saude (03:10):
No, absolutely. I think, you know, a lot of people
were curious, throughout ourbuild process, like, "Hey, how's
things going? Is everything, iseverything working out?" And
we're like, "Yeah, it's great.
We work really well together."And so we're very lucky and
fortunate to be able to havethat with each other.
Cassie Saude (03:28):
I think we're pretty much a done deal. when we
started. Nothing was official.
We weren't engaged or anythingyet, but it was, it was very
much like I've found myrepresentation of home om
another person. And I thinkdefinitely got cemented
throughout the build process.
The compatibility of our, youknow, communication, working
(03:51):
together, and everything wasreally exciting. And it was a
little nerve wracking to startbecause we had lots of folks
telling us, "Oh, you know,you're supposed to build things
together, you know, building ahouse, you know, that.
Ethan Waldman (04:02):
Yeah,
Cassie Saude (04:02):
that's the big deal. What if you guys, you
know, fight a lot?" So we, wedefinitely were a little nervous
going into it. But I have to sayit was a pretty great process.
And I already knew I was prettyblessed in a partner with
Richard and that just kind ofshone through throughout our
whole build.
Ethan Waldman (04:21):
That's awesome.
And so can you what, what wasthe timeline of like, meeting,
starting to date and then like,building the tiny house? And
whose idea was the tiny houseanyway?
Cassie Saude (04:35):
So we both we, we actually both were into tiny
homes before we ever met andthen we started dating about a
year and a half before westarted our build. And we lived
together for a little bit beforethat. So we kind of got used to
like the kind of lifestylethings that we do together and
(04:58):
with our three dogs We had fourdogs at the time one of them has
passed on since then. But yeah,so about a year and a half, and
we started the plan process, gotour trailer and everything. And
then our build. All in allworking evenings and weekends,
mostly. We both work full timeduring the whole process. That
(05:20):
took about two years. And thenwe got married about six months
after finishing the house, Ithink, so that we've been in the
house for about a year and threemonths now.
Ethan Waldman (05:35):
Nice. And do you live in Portland in the house?
Cassie Saude (05:40):
We're in the Portland metro area. So we're
out in the country.
Ethan Waldman (05:43):
Nice. Nice. And what was it like finding a
parking site? Like what what isyour parking situation?
Cassie Saude (05:50):
Sure. So when we started the build, we were
living in a fifth wheel on mydad's property out in the
country. We did our whole buildprocess out there. And we're
very fortunate to have thatavailable to us that we just
kind of rented a parking spotfrom him. We did input all of
our own utilities andeverything. So that was pretty
exciting. We did all the manuallabor for that mostly by hand.
(06:14):
We made some mistakes in thatprocess, trying to save money.
Ethan Waldman (06:18):
Yeah.
Cassie Saude (06:19):
First piece of advice. If you have access to a
Ditch Witch that you can rent,do it. It's worth every penny.
Ethan Waldman (06:25):
Yeah, actually, I'd love to hear - I think
people will be curious to hearabout, like, what what you mean,
when you say, "We put in all ofour own utilities."" Like what,
what did that entail? What didyou do?
Cassie Saude (06:38):
Sure. So we, we pretty much did all of the
digging and trenching. We had torun 300 feet of electrical and
water. So we did all of theinfrastructure for that before
getting it inspected andeverything.
Ethan Waldman (06:52):
Wow.
Cassie Saude (06:54):
And basically, it's permitted as an RV hookup.
I'm sure I don't have to tellyoure following about how
difficult it is, if you were tosay, "This is for a tiny home."
But we did all of it prior tomoving out there with our RV and
prior to the build. So we wereable to get all of that done
with fewer questions, you know,without having all of that in
(07:17):
process. But yeah, primarily thethings that we needed were our
water and electrical hookup. Wewere on a 50 amp service on our
house. And just a standardbasic, potable garden hose like
that.
Ethan Waldman (07:32):
Uh huh.
Cassie Saude (07:33):
And then we did a composting toilet. So no sewer
hookup or anything.
Ethan Waldman (07:37):
Got it. Got it.
And so 300 feet of electrical.
That's expensive. That wire isnot cheap.
Cassie Saude (07:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
We started at a really good timewith our build. We started in
the summer of 2019. And that wasright before all of the prices
skyrocketed for wood andwhatnot. Since it was pre
pandemic, we were extremelyfortunate on our timing,. We
calculated that we basicallywouldn't be able to afford to
build our house today.
Ethan Waldman (08:07):
Wow.
Cassie Saude (08:07):
With what what we paid originally, even just our
our plywood using for oursheathing.
Ethan Waldman (08:14):
Yeah.
Cassie Saude (08:15):
Was I think eight times what it was.
Ethan Waldman (08:18):
Oh my gosh,
Cassie Saude (08:18):
If we priced it out again. Yeah.
Ethan Waldman (08:21):
What did? I'm curious, like, what what did
your house cost to build?
Obviously, not counting the costof your own labor versus what it
would cost today?
Cassie Saude (08:31):
Sure. Um, do you want to answer that?
Richard Saude (08:34):
Yeah. So we put a lot of higher end finishes on
some aesthetic black walnut. Andwe kind of went all out
unnecessarily on our house. Ithink all in all, were upwards
of $40,000 in materials. Andthat's what the, the chassis and
everything included. Just eventhat we've - our trailer cost
(09:00):
somewhere around $8,000. Nowthey run around $10,000 -
$11,000. The increase in priceover the last few years, even
with steel, has been a lot. So Iwould imagine, you know,
material cost now to build ourhome is around $55,000 -$60,000.
Ethan Waldman (09:19):
Wow.
Richard Saude (09:20):
Just with all the inflation and increase the
demand.
Ethan Waldman (09:25):
Yeah, that's that's significant. That's a big
percentage.
Richard Saude (09:29):
Yeah.
Ethan Waldman (09:31):
And the home that you built is that you know, I'm
on Lionheart homes, which wewill get to but is that the
Duchess is like, is that modelbased on your home?
Cassie Saude (09:45):
Yeah,
Richard Saude (09:46):
yeah.
Ethan Waldman (09:47):
Nice. And so that's a that's a 30 foot
trailer and it's is it 10 feetwide?
Unknown (09:52):
No, it's a standard.
eight foot eight foot six.
Ethan Waldman (09:55):
Okay.
Richard Saude (09:57):
For that clearance though, it's it's
within The restrictions for theroad.
Ethan Waldman (10:01):
Right.
Richard Saude (10:02):
But that, you know, it took us I think it took
us about eight months planningand designing the layout for our
home and that model for theDutchess.
Ethan Waldman (10:15):
What are some of the kind of features and
highlights of that model?
Unknown (10:19):
I think one of the big ones that stand out is just kind
of being expressive. We wentwith, you know, the bay window
and the front. the shapes, cedarshingles gives it a different
look. Using that, that darkerteal color and bring that inside
(10:39):
with cabinets.
Ethan Waldman (10:41):
Yeah,
Richard Saude (10:42):
Using all that black walnut. I mean, we just
really pertained to using a lotof natural woods and not just
not playing it safe, I think, iswhat we kind of went for and
making it our own style.
Ethan Waldman (10:55):
Yeah, giving it some character.
Cassie Saude (10:57):
Yeah, we, we definitely think model wise. And
I know we're probably not goinginto that yet. But just model
wise, our floorplan is justreally livable. Like I said,
we've lived there for over ayear and at this point, we have
three dogs and two cats. So wereally amplified the storage
space. That was a really centralfocus for us and fitting that in
(11:19):
everywhere we could. So that's areally big bonus on that model
for anyone you know, that'slooking to live tiny versus to
have you know, an Airbnb orsomething that they're just
vacationing in. We reallyfocused on that. So are you
know, everything from thestorage to our stairs are
extremely accessible for theaverage person. I know sometimes
(11:43):
tiny home stairs can beintimidating to folks because
they look a bit treacherous.
Ethan Waldman (11:48):
Yeah,
Cassie Saude (11:48):
So we've really focused on that. And our
bathroom is also a reallygenerous size so that it's a
comfortable space to shower in.
And, you know, live life.
Ethan Waldman (11:59):
Yeah, yeah.
That's, that's an importantthing that, you know, if you
build really small, there'splenty of people who do it and
live full time there. But youknow, if your life expands a
little bit, or you know, youhave some unexpected changes, or
just need a little bit morespace, it can start to feel
really small, really quickly.
Cassie Saude (12:22):
Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. We, we have had one
life change since we originallydesigned the house. And since we
were in the completion stage.
And that was me changing fromworking off site to working from
home. So yeah, if folks take alook at our home, you'll see my
work from home station with mycomputer and everything that was
(12:42):
actually not designed into thespace, we just got really lucky
with it, it worked out that way
Ethan Waldman (12:50):
It kind of fit in there.
Cassie Saude (12:51):
Yeah.
Ethan Waldman (12:54):
Yeah, that's, that's a really good point, I
don't think, you know, my tinyhouse was designed for, for
really one person working fromthere. And even then, you know,
it's it's the dining table isthe desk is the dining table.
It's not its own dedicatedspace, which is actually, you
know, it's kind of hard to nothave a dedicated space for
(13:14):
working. If you have to put itaway every time.
Cassie Saude (13:19):
Very true. I mean, sometimes you don't feel like
you've left work, then as well,when you have that dedicated
space, you can just choose notto sit there or not to use that
space during that time. And thenyou're not sitting there eating
dinner going, "Oh, I didn'tfinish that report today, I
should maybe I'll just hop backon and work on that for a little
(13:39):
bit."
Ethan Waldman (13:42):
Any special features for for the pups in the
house?
Cassie Saude (13:47):
They have their own dedicated cabinet with all
of their food and their toys andeverything. And then we do have
a section in our fireplacesurround in our bookshelf that
we built in for them to havelittle beds in there. So they
could have their own spot. Wehave two very small dogs under
(14:08):
seven pounds. And we diddedicate that area to them,
although they typically preferto be up on the sofa, since
that's where we hang out withthem. So they're more
comfortable, they're usuallyfit. Those are our two two fun
points that we put in for themand pretty practical too.
Ethan Waldman (14:25):
Nice. Nice. So at what point will did you go into
the build, you know, thinkinglike, "Hey, maybe, maybe I'll
you know, we'll do thisprofessionally afterwards?" Or
at what point did thattransition happen?
Richard Saude (14:43):
You know, we definitely started thinking and
kind of dreaming about it. And alot of it just came down to you
know, we love doing that so muchand we love you know being a
part of the tiny community andsince we have the available
skills we're like, "Wow, wecould really offer our services
(15:03):
here. And, and, you know, webelieve that we would, you know,
really excel and, you know, bereally, really talented and
offering what we offer." So itdefinitely started, you know, a
little seed, and then it kind ofgrew from there.
Ethan Waldman (15:19):
Yeah. And so, can you tell the story of like, what
that process was, like, youknow, kind of hanging up a
shingle as, as a professional,tiny house building company?
Cassie Saude (15:30):
Yeah, so, um, Richard was already in
construction, like he'dmentioned for pretty much all of
his adult life and, and beyond.
Kids on worksites was a greatidea. But just going through
that process, and realizing thatbeing in control of your own
quality, and being able toamplify other people's quality
(15:53):
of life with the skillset thatyou have, he decided to go off
on his own into contracting andhas a business partner that
we've worked with. And basicallywent off was doing contracting
and just kept going back to,"Why on earth Haven't we just
started doing tiny homes?"That's where the passion is, we
(16:15):
have the full skill set, we, youknow, have done so much research
into this, and are just sopassionate about the community.
So we had a big, big familyconversation between us and our
business partner, Steven. Andyeah, he was supportive of us
changing directions and ourtiptoeing into the realm was
(16:40):
what we lovingly referred to asghost building. So we've been
consulting for other tiny homecompanies that are already
national brands, and kind oftaking them back to their roots
and going, you know, "Here'swhat we can work on for you,
here's what we can improve."Because a lot of them have
gotten so big that they haveoutsourced to builders, and
(17:02):
their quality has declined dueto that. And so we've kind of
brought a force back in doingthat. And that's kind of how we
got our foot back in the door.
So we are doing our own customhomes, have our own models, but
we are also consulting for otherexisting tiny home companies and
(17:23):
helping them get back on trackso that our community benefit
from maintaining that qualityand just commitment to building
great homes, no matter whatcompany you are.
Ethan Waldman (17:35):
Interesting.
Yeah, it seems that in theprocess of scaling a tiny house
company, I would imagine that itbecomes easy, or sometimes even
necessary to kind of almost cutcorners, or to do things in a
less careful way.
Cassie Saude (17:53):
It definitely seems like folks have to let go
of some things in order to bemore efficient, or in order to
be more I assume lucrative.
Ethan Waldman (18:03):
Yeah.
Cassie Saude (18:04):
And so it really does come down to either
maintaining your scale andchoosing to stay at a certain
size and have a longer waitlist,or, you know, having less
control over things. And, youknow, having to trust other
folks to do that. So we've we'vefelt very fortunate to be able
to get in there and help peoplekind of roll things back and go,
(18:25):
you know, "You don't have tosacrifice these things to be,
you know, competitive and to,you know, keep things going."
Ethan Waldman (18:34):
Yeah, you know, I'm curious, because I would
imagine that many listeners orsome listeners out there are in
the process of looking atbuilders, and I know, they'd be
curious. Do you have any, anythings that people should kind
of look out for that would kindof, I don't know, clue them in
to like, "Hey, this builder hashas maybe started to cut some
(18:56):
corners," or just like, what aresome things to look out for in
that department,
Unknown (19:01):
I would offer the start ask for a detailed report,
inspection report on the home,just to make sure that all
proper inspections were donewith a legitimate inspection
service, you know, whateverentity that might be, that's
super important, and just, youknow, seeing what kind of
(19:22):
documentation they're willing toprovide, as far as what how they
do their process, you know, whatkind of quality control do they,
you know, processes do they haveset in place to make sure that
they limit the amount ofwarranty issues in their
product, you know, and that's,that's pretty important, I
think.
Ethan Waldman (19:40):
Yeah, that's, that's good. It sounds like you
wouldn't suggest working with abuilder who's not certified.
Richard Saude (19:49):
You know, at the end of the day, I would
recommend not. I mean, it's,it's a fairly, you know, big
procedure to get certified andbe able to build certified, but
it's necessary, it keepseverybody honest. And you know
it in my, in my experience, Imean, it would, it would, I
(20:10):
would never want to buildanything that's not certified. I
mean, it just, it makes sense toyou at the end of the day.
Cassie Saude (20:16):
And in addition to that being kind of assurance of
the quality of your home thatyou're getting, it also ensures
that if you're going to betraveling with it, that you can
be parking in RV parks, etc. Sothat kind of a multipurpose
process for that certificationto make sure that you're safe,
(20:36):
things are done properly, andyou can go the places that you
want to go without hindrance.
Ethan Waldman (20:40):
Yeah.
I asked John and Fin Kernaghanhave united Tiny House
Association what they love abouttheir PrecisionTemp hot water
heaters. And here's what theytold me.
John Kernohan (20:51):
Hey, Ethan. This is John and Fin Kernaghan with
United Tiny House Association.
Fin Kernohan (20:56):
We organize tiny house festivals.
John Kernohan (20:58):
Oh, yeah, I guess so.
Fin Kernohan (20:59):
First and foremost.
John Kernohan (21:01):
We have a total of three PrecisionTemp On Demand
hot water heaters. The thing wereally like about these and
folks know this, I think theypick this up on Fin and I, if we
don't like something, you'llnever hear us talk about it. So
the two things we noticed thatwe noticed and experienced
immediately. They tookpainstaking effort to make sure
(21:21):
that it was done right andinstalled. And so that was
pretty cool right there. Theother thing is the continuous on
demand hot water that just ranforever without any fluctuations
or anything. I can't imagine anapplication, especially in our
environment and our lifestyle ofbeing the nomad, transportable,
(21:46):
mobile, tiny lifestyle where oneof these units aren't good to
use.
Ethan Waldman (21:53):
Are you planning to do any travel with with your
house?
Cassie Saude (21:56):
We did not build our house intending on travel.
So we didn't, we are actuallyslightly over height.
Ethan Waldman (22:04):
Okay,
Cassie Saude (22:05):
So yeah, so we did not plan on traveling with our
home. Our whole process with ourhome was really intended on
being scaling down our lifestyleand being in control of our
monthly expenses so that we canwork towards owning our own
property. Because we felt likebeing stuck in an apartment in a
rental of any sort was reallygoing to negatively impact our
(22:27):
trajectory for being able to getwhere we wanted to be in life,
physically and financially. Sowe did take advantage of knowing
that we weren't going to bemoving regularly to make our
house just a little bit overheight, so that we could have a
little more headspace. In ourDutchess models that will be
custom building for folks, theywill be within height
(22:50):
restriction, because we knowthat you have to get from point
A to point B. We know that folksare probably going to want to
travel but we did not take thatinto consideration when we did
our build, because we did notintend on travel. We are very
keen on adding a van or othersmaller, movable home to our
(23:12):
repertoire when we're ready togo on vacation, etc. But yeah,
well, we'll see when we get tothat point. No vacations for a
while.
Ethan Waldman (23:25):
Yeah, so you know, how has the business
grown? It looks like, you know,just looking at your Instagram
feed, it looks like you'veyou've moved into a fairly large
space.
Cassie Saude (23:36):
Yeah, we're in about a 6000 square foot
commercial building right nowthat we are renting out. With
all of the homes that we'reworking on, we typically have
about three at a time goingwithin that space. We do
everything from the, you know,chassis up. We get the trailers
(23:57):
in depending on what specifictypes of trailer we need. And
once we get going, we have ourown cabinet shop, do all of our
own custom cabinet painting,pretty much everything is
handmade by us and our team. So,um, yeah.
Ethan Waldman (24:18):
And how many houses are you working on at the
time?
Cassie Saude (24:23):
About three of the time.
Ethan Waldman (24:25):
Okay, and why why that number does that. You know,
is there some benefit to like,doing more than one or two, but
but not more than three?
Richard Saude (24:34):
Yeah. So brief fits the best of that 6000
square foot area allowing roomto work and room to move around
and for storage.
Ethan Waldman (24:46):
Yeah.
Richard Saude (24:47):
And then also for the for the team that we have.
It works well having the two andthree going at a time so that
there can be transition intodifferent stages of those
processes. It's a little bitmore of a fluid process of
completing these builds, havingthose, you know, kind of
(25:08):
staggered. You start one andit's getting framed by the time
that houses into finish date isyou're starting to frame another
one. So it's a good, it's a goodflow for our shop.
Ethan Waldman (25:18):
Nice. And are you building only stick framed? Or
do you? Are you doing any SIPsbuilding or steel building?
Richard Saude (25:27):
We have done aluminum, the steel framing and
the SIPs and in the past, andwe're open to it. A lot of the
models and homes we're buildingright now have been
predominantly stick built at themoment.
Ethan Waldman (25:43):
Okay.
Richard Saude (25:44):
But we've we've ventured into those other
categories as well.
Ethan Waldman (25:49):
And that's just based on what the client wants?
Richard Saude (25:54):
Yeah, you know, it's a lot of preference, and
just kind of what, what worksfor that particular home? Yeah.
And
Ethan Waldman (26:04):
How far out are you booking right now for homes?
Cassie Saude (26:09):
It depends on how custom the build is. So right
now, we have a house that's inthe design process, but we won't
be starting it until thebeginning of next year, because
they chose to go with all customwindows. They're going to be
absolutely gorgeous. And we'rereally excited to share that
build when we get started. Butour rep called us a couple of
(26:31):
weeks ago and said, "I am sosorry. But these are out 32
weeks right now."So, that's been
changing things a little bit for
Ethan Waldman (26:37):
Oh my gosh.
us with the with the lead times.
But right now on our are just,you know, more strategized
builds that aren't custom orexisting models. If we go with
one of those, we're looking atabout five months out. And we do
(26:58):
stagger it based on what wealready have. If we're working
on somebody else's build ifwe're if we're ghost building.
So right now we're probablylooking at being able to take
custom orders, or more buildsprobably the beginning of the
(27:18):
year.
Nice. What arewhat are some ways actually,
first, we just want to ask howmany how many have you built
under you know on as Lionheartand and not for other builders
or not consulting?
Richard Saude (27:36):
So we've completed about a handful so
far, and we're still a fairlynew company. So we're definitely
hitting our stride right nowwith getting our shop completely
set up properly to meet thedemand that we're now seeing.
(27:57):
And also, you know, buildingfor, you know, others for ghost
building. But yeah, so we'vebeen, you know, we have our, you
know, handful that we've done.
Ethan Waldman (28:10):
Nice. How would you say? Or what are some ways
that being a tiny home dwellercreated a different perspective
as, as a professional builder orsome insight into the design and
the construction process?
Yeah. Richard,did you have anything you wanted
Cassie Saude (28:26):
Sure, it was a great question. We have a really
great ability to just placeourselves in a space and
visualize using things andeverything from how is this
going to work when you move yourhouse? How is this going to work
when you have to hook up yourhouse? How are you getting into
(28:46):
your house? When you walkthrough your house, what are you
to add to that?
seeing what are you having towalk around, it's just a really
immersive perspective. And it isa good foundation because we you
know, we live pretty basicallybut we you know, are able to
build on that with what kind ofhobbies do you have and kind of
(29:08):
fit things into the spacewithout having to retrofit
things. Since since we can dothings custom and we've you
know, experienced doing that forourselves we just we know what
to ask people. We know what tolook for. We you know have a
Richard Saude (29:21):
No, not really, she pretty much nailed it. I
great outlook on you know whereto place things to make them
Tiny House friendly but not tinyhouse dweller unfriendly.
(29:42):
mean, it just, it's a uniqueposition to be in, just being
able to picture ourselves inthat space because that's the
space we live in. So, you know,thinking about the storage and
thinking about you know, what aperson needs and you know, what
to watch out for, to, you know,sometime items, you can't have
everything that you would like,in that space. And it's really
(30:04):
our responsibility to kind ofunderstand that and relate that
back to the client that isasking for these items in their
home and just being there fortheir that support for them, you
know, so that they do end upgetting that home that they
want. And that is functional atthe end of the day.
Ethan Waldman (30:24):
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's an interesting
point of just like, meeting tobe almost like the bad cop who
says, like, "You know, sure wecould squeeze this in, but it's
gonna, it might affect yourquality of life everywhere. And
you might consider omittingsomething that you want, but
isn't as important as some otherthings."
Cassie Saude (30:44):
Absolutely. And it really is always a continuous
conversation with folks saying,"Hey, I know you really want
this, we can do it. Here's whatthat would look like, Here's
what it looked like, if wedidn't do that."
Ethan Waldman (30:57):
Yeah. Yeah. Where did the name Lionheart come
from?
Richard Saude (31:02):
That was my idea.
And that's the strength in thename and having pride in what we
do. And the loyalty and, youknow, the courage to do this,
and be there for, you know,everybody in the community. And
that's kind of where that wholeLionheart stems from is just
(31:23):
having a heart of a lion.
Ethan Waldman (31:27):
Nice. I like that. So one thing that that
continues to be a challenge inthe tiny house movement, you
know, we've we've all seen,things are really moving on the
legalization front, andparticularly in Portland, but
(31:47):
but all over the country, pieceby piece, state by state it
seems to be moving in thepro-tiny house direction. One
area where where I haven't seenvery much movement is in is in
the financing, in that, youknow, a a tiny home is
(32:08):
affordable, but it's verydifficult to get a loan for it.
And so it ends up being notavailable to those who really
need an affordable home. Whathave you seen, you know, your
clients, you know, coming inwith? Have you seen any creative
(32:30):
financing options? Or what andwhat can you do as a builder to
help make that more accessible?
Cassie Saude (32:38):
Absolutely. So I can talk a little more to the
flexible options and like thingsthat people have done that are a
little outside of the norm. Andthen I know we have a partner
that Richard will, will chatabout as well. So we actually
financed our home, and we usedin unsecured line of credit. So
(33:00):
basically, what folks can do isbe credit approved and have a
line or a loan that they getdepending on their bank,
depending on what they'reapproved for. And they can use
that for basically whatever theywant to. And your home is not
collateralizing that. Sobasically, it's like having just
a whopper of a credit card.
Typically the interest rates area lot better. But that is what
(33:22):
we did to finance our buildoriginally. And that gave us a
great kickstart. So there aredefinitely places you can do
that for larger amounts and I'veseen folks go with that. We of
course, have a few clients thathave been further along in life
than we have and were able to docash. So that's obviously always
(33:43):
an option. But definitelylooking at alternative financing
is a great idea. Well, thingsare still progressing and
becoming more tiny friendly, buttypically, yeah, either an
unsecured loan or line of somesort. I've also seen folks who
have owned their truck outright,they have a beautiful new truck
(34:07):
and they refinanced on that toget the cash from it. And
because they have that availableso just looking at what assets
you have, basically, yeah, yeah,your your credit, your, you
know, belongings what have you.
There's there's lots ofpossibilities if you if you get
creative.
Ethan Waldman (34:26):
Nice,
Richard Saude (34:28):
And then we're Lionheart homes, we actually
have financing available througha partnership with Liberty Bank
of Utah.
Ethan Waldman (34:36):
Okay.
Richard Saude (34:37):
And that's really great for you know, potential
clients, because we kind of havethat involved with us that we
can send them, you know, throughthat partnership and have that
available. And, and really, whatallowed us to get to that point
is being very detailed in ourinspection process and who we
(34:58):
work with to provide thosedetailed reports, you know, this
bank is comfortable withfinancing because of they know
the quality and what gets putinto this home. So to be able to
back it.
Ethan Waldman (35:10):
Rght, because these, the Liberty bank is
actually doing like moremortgage like loans like 10, 15,
20 year loans.
Richard Saude (35:20):
Correct.
Cassie Saude (35:20):
Right.
Ethan Waldman (35:21):
Yeah. And that's, that's a big, that's a tough nut
to crack, because that's, that'swhat actually make would make a
tiny house affordable is to, youknow, for someone to be able to
finance it over the course of,you know, 15 years or more like
a like a mortgage.
Cassie Saude (35:38):
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Ethan Waldman (35:42):
Do you know what the interest rates are like on
those loans? Are theysignificantly higher than, you
know, just like what people aregetting for a single family?
Cassie Saude (35:50):
Sure. So the last time I checked, I was going
through their previous brochure,I haven't looked lately for
their current rate, becauseprimary did just change a few
weeks ago. So that is going tochange. Everything lending
related, of course, yeah, but Ibelieve they were around 8%.
Ethan Waldman (36:09):
Yeah. Yeah.
Cassie Saude (36:10):
Which isn't horrible. Obviously it's a lot
more than a mortgage, but it's alot less than a credit card.
Ethan Waldman (36:17):
Yeah, certainly a lot less than a credit card.
Cassie Saude (36:20):
Yeah.
Ethan Waldman (36:21):
Well, one thing that I like to ask all my guests
is, you know, what are two orthree resources that that helped
you, when you were building yourtiny house that you'd like to
share with our listeners,
Richard Saude (36:32):
I think, if anybody was interested in
potentially doing a DIY buildthemselves, and they wanted to
design something, I know, forus, in our design phase of
designing our house in ourDuchess model. Like I said, we
took us about eight months todesign, we used Google SketchUp.
(36:53):
And we taught ourselves how touse that program. And that
helped tremendously. I mean, werebuilt the house, I don't know,
probably eight to a dozen timeson SketchUp just have to really
tweak everything before weactually were doing it in person
physically, and like having tomove things and adjusting. It
(37:17):
really saved a lot of time andmaterials and frustration, just
doing it on the on SketchUp.
Ethan Waldman (37:24):
Nice. And did you just, like learn from YouTube?
Did you take a course like howdid you learn SketchUp?
Richard Saude (37:32):
Yeah, basically, just YouTube, just a bunch of
tutorial videos on. You know,we, we got it to a good, you
know, I don't think we'recomplete professionals at, you
know, Google SketchUp, but wegot enough understanding of it
to make, you know, that modelhappen. So...
Ethan Waldman (37:51):
Nice.
Cassie Saude (37:52):
I have to be a complete nerd and say our local
library was great. We actuallydid a lot of research on just
different techniques for thingsthat we were already familiar
with, and just really wanted tobrush up on and, you know, they
have great ideas for, you know,air movement and you know, more
(38:14):
minut things. There's just somany resources out there that
are free and, you know,accessible to folks that you
can, you know, read ebooks andthings and read about, you know,
different, you know, types ofphysics and things that go into
processes that you're, you know,are a little more well rounded
if, if you're, again, trained toDIY things yourself, and really
(38:37):
get down into the nitty grittythat it takes to do that.
Ethan Waldman (38:42):
Nice. Well, Richard and Cassie Saide, thank
you so much for being guests onthe show. This was really fun.
Cassie Saude (38:50):
Thanks so much for having us. It was great.
Ethan Waldman (38:54):
Thank you so much to Richard and Cassie Saude of
Lionheart homes for being guestson the show today. You can find
the show notes, including photosof their various homes that
they've builtt and lots of linksto social media accounts and
more, plus a complete transcriptfrom this episode at
thetinyhouse.net/219. Again,that's thetinyhouse.net/219.
(39:18):
Well, that's all for this week.
I'm your host, Ethan Waldman,and I'll be back next week with
another episode of the TinyHouse Lifestyle Podcast.
Why on earth haven't we just started doing
(00:03):
tiny homes. That's where thepassion is. We have the full
skill set. We, you know, havedone so much research into this
and are just so passionate aboutthe community. So...
Ethan Waldman (00:16):
Welcome to the Tiny House Lifestyle Podcast,
the show where you learn how toplan, build and live the tiny
lifestyle. I'm your host, EthanWaldman, and this is episode 219
with the Saudes. Richard andCassie Saude met and quickly
built a tiny house together, andtheir relationship survived. So
we start the conversationtalking about how building a
(00:37):
house together can can bestressful but wasn't for them,
and then how they transitionedfrom living tiny to actually
starting a professional tinyhouse company, where they're now
building tiny houses for others.
In this conversation, we'll talkabout how being a tiny home
dweller creates a differentperspective as a professional
builder and helps them provideadditional insight to their
(00:59):
clients in the design andconstruction process. I hope you
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(02:06):
All right, I am here with theSaudes. Richard and Cassie Saude
have a classic love story -sonaturally, it started on Tinder.
They bonded over their mutuallove of the outdoors, tiny
homes, playing music, andvegetarianism. They united to
build their DIY tiny house, tiedthe know, and then turned their
lifestyle into their business.
Richard brought a lifetime ofconstruction experience and
(02:27):
Cassie a history of managementand customer service. Cassie is
the realist and the manager ofthe mundane. Richard is the
dreamer and achiever. They areboth artists at heart. As you
can tell this duo eats, sleepsand works tiny. Richard and
Cassie, welcome to the show.
Cassie Saude (02:45):
Thanks for having us, Ethan. We're super excited
to be here.
Richard Saude (02:48):
Thanks for having us.
Ethan Waldman (02:49):
Yeah, glad to have you both here. So I'm
curious, because there's an oldsaying that says, "Build a
house, lose your spouse." Wasthe relationship like you knew
it was the one when yousuccessfully built a house
together? Or was there? And Wasthere ever any question?
Richard Saude (03:10):
No, absolutely. I think, you know, a lot of people
were curious, throughout ourbuild process, like, "Hey, how's
things going? Is everything, iseverything working out?" And
we're like, "Yeah, it's great.
We work really well together."And so we're very lucky and
fortunate to be able to havethat with each other.
Cassie Saude (03:28):
I think we're pretty much a done deal. when we
started. Nothing was official.
We weren't engaged or anythingyet, but it was, it was very
much like I've found myrepresentation of home om
another person. And I thinkdefinitely got cemented
throughout the build process.
The compatibility of our, youknow, communication, working
(03:51):
together, and everything wasreally exciting. And it was a
little nerve wracking to startbecause we had lots of folks
telling us, "Oh, you know,you're supposed to build things
together, you know, building ahouse, you know, that.
Ethan Waldman (04:02):
Yeah,
Cassie Saude (04:02):
that's the big deal. What if you guys, you
know, fight a lot?" So we, wedefinitely were a little nervous
going into it. But I have to sayit was a pretty great process.
And I already knew I was prettyblessed in a partner with
Richard and that just kind ofshone through throughout our
whole build.
Ethan Waldman (04:21):
That's awesome.
And so can you what, what wasthe timeline of like, meeting,
starting to date and then like,building the tiny house? And
whose idea was the tiny houseanyway?
Cassie Saude (04:35):
So we both we, we actually both were into tiny
homes before we ever met andthen we started dating about a
year and a half before westarted our build. And we lived
together for a little bit beforethat. So we kind of got used to
like the kind of lifestylethings that we do together and
(04:58):
with our three dogs We had fourdogs at the time one of them has
passed on since then. But yeah,so about a year and a half, and
we started the plan process, gotour trailer and everything. And
then our build. All in allworking evenings and weekends,
mostly. We both work full timeduring the whole process. That
(05:20):
took about two years. And thenwe got married about six months
after finishing the house, Ithink, so that we've been in the
house for about a year and threemonths now.
Ethan Waldman (05:35):
Nice. And do you live in Portland in the house?
Cassie Saude (05:40):
We're in the Portland metro area. So we're
out in the country.
Ethan Waldman (05:43):
Nice. Nice. And what was it like finding a
parking site? Like what what isyour parking situation?
Cassie Saude (05:50):
Sure. So when we started the build, we were
living in a fifth wheel on mydad's property out in the
country. We did our whole buildprocess out there. And we're
very fortunate to have thatavailable to us that we just
kind of rented a parking spotfrom him. We did input all of
our own utilities andeverything. So that was pretty
exciting. We did all the manuallabor for that mostly by hand.
(06:14):
We made some mistakes in thatprocess, trying to save money.
Ethan Waldman (06:18):
Yeah.
Cassie Saude (06:19):
First piece of advice. If you have access to a
Ditch Witch that you can rent,do it. It's worth every penny.
Ethan Waldman (06:25):
Yeah, actually, I'd love to hear - I think
people will be curious to hearabout, like, what what you mean,
when you say, "We put in all ofour own utilities."" Like what,
what did that entail? What didyou do?
Cassie Saude (06:38):
Sure. So we, we pretty much did all of the
digging and trenching. We had torun 300 feet of electrical and
water. So we did all of theinfrastructure for that before
getting it inspected andeverything.
Ethan Waldman (06:52):
Wow.
Cassie Saude (06:54):
And basically, it's permitted as an RV hookup.
I'm sure I don't have to tellyoure following about how
difficult it is, if you were tosay, "This is for a tiny home."
But we did all of it prior tomoving out there with our RV and
prior to the build. So we wereable to get all of that done
with fewer questions, you know,without having all of that in
(07:17):
process. But yeah, primarily thethings that we needed were our
water and electrical hookup. Wewere on a 50 amp service on our
house. And just a standardbasic, potable garden hose like
that.
Ethan Waldman (07:32):
Uh huh.
Cassie Saude (07:33):
And then we did a composting toilet. So no sewer
hookup or anything.
Ethan Waldman (07:37):
Got it. Got it.
And so 300 feet of electrical.
That's expensive. That wire isnot cheap.
Cassie Saude (07:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
We started at a really good timewith our build. We started in
the summer of 2019. And that wasright before all of the prices
skyrocketed for wood andwhatnot. Since it was pre
pandemic, we were extremelyfortunate on our timing,. We
calculated that we basicallywouldn't be able to afford to
build our house today.
Ethan Waldman (08:07):
Wow.
Cassie Saude (08:07):
With what what we paid originally, even just our
our plywood using for oursheathing.
Ethan Waldman (08:14):
Yeah.
Cassie Saude (08:15):
Was I think eight times what it was.
Ethan Waldman (08:18):
Oh my gosh,
Cassie Saude (08:18):
If we priced it out again. Yeah.
Ethan Waldman (08:21):
What did? I'm curious, like, what what did
your house cost to build?
Obviously, not counting the costof your own labor versus what it
would cost today?
Cassie Saude (08:31):
Sure. Um, do you want to answer that?
Richard Saude (08:34):
Yeah. So we put a lot of higher end finishes on
some aesthetic black walnut. Andwe kind of went all out
unnecessarily on our house. Ithink all in all, were upwards
of $40,000 in materials. Andthat's what the, the chassis and
everything included. Just eventhat we've - our trailer cost
(09:00):
somewhere around $8,000. Nowthey run around $10,000 -
$11,000. The increase in priceover the last few years, even
with steel, has been a lot. So Iwould imagine, you know,
material cost now to build ourhome is around $55,000 -$60,000.
Ethan Waldman (09:19):
Wow.
Richard Saude (09:20):
Just with all the inflation and increase the
demand.
Ethan Waldman (09:25):
Yeah, that's that's significant. That's a big
percentage.
Richard Saude (09:29):
Yeah.
Ethan Waldman (09:31):
And the home that you built is that you know, I'm
on Lionheart homes, which wewill get to but is that the
Duchess is like, is that modelbased on your home?
Cassie Saude (09:45):
Yeah,
Richard Saude (09:46):
yeah.
Ethan Waldman (09:47):
Nice. And so that's a that's a 30 foot
trailer and it's is it 10 feetwide?
Unknown (09:52):
No, it's a standard.
eight foot eight foot six.
Ethan Waldman (09:55):
Okay.
Richard Saude (09:57):
For that clearance though, it's it's
within The restrictions for theroad.
Ethan Waldman (10:01):
Right.
Richard Saude (10:02):
But that, you know, it took us I think it took
us about eight months planningand designing the layout for our
home and that model for theDutchess.
Ethan Waldman (10:15):
What are some of the kind of features and
highlights of that model?
Unknown (10:19):
I think one of the big ones that stand out is just kind
of being expressive. We wentwith, you know, the bay window
and the front. the shapes, cedarshingles gives it a different
look. Using that, that darkerteal color and bring that inside
(10:39):
with cabinets.
Ethan Waldman (10:41):
Yeah,
Richard Saude (10:42):
Using all that black walnut. I mean, we just
really pertained to using a lotof natural woods and not just
not playing it safe, I think, iswhat we kind of went for and
making it our own style.
Ethan Waldman (10:55):
Yeah, giving it some character.
Cassie Saude (10:57):
Yeah, we, we definitely think model wise. And
I know we're probably not goinginto that yet. But just model
wise, our floorplan is justreally livable. Like I said,
we've lived there for over ayear and at this point, we have
three dogs and two cats. So wereally amplified the storage
space. That was a really centralfocus for us and fitting that in
(11:19):
everywhere we could. So that's areally big bonus on that model
for anyone you know, that'slooking to live tiny versus to
have you know, an Airbnb orsomething that they're just
vacationing in. We reallyfocused on that. So are you
know, everything from thestorage to our stairs are
extremely accessible for theaverage person. I know sometimes
(11:43):
tiny home stairs can beintimidating to folks because
they look a bit treacherous.
Ethan Waldman (11:48):
Yeah,
Cassie Saude (11:48):
So we've really focused on that. And our
bathroom is also a reallygenerous size so that it's a
comfortable space to shower in.
And, you know, live life.
Ethan Waldman (11:59):
Yeah, yeah.
That's, that's an importantthing that, you know, if you
build really small, there'splenty of people who do it and
live full time there. But youknow, if your life expands a
little bit, or you know, youhave some unexpected changes, or
just need a little bit morespace, it can start to feel
really small, really quickly.
Cassie Saude (12:22):
Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. We, we have had one
life change since we originallydesigned the house. And since we
were in the completion stage.
And that was me changing fromworking off site to working from
home. So yeah, if folks take alook at our home, you'll see my
work from home station with mycomputer and everything that was
(12:42):
actually not designed into thespace, we just got really lucky
with it, it worked out that way
Ethan Waldman (12:50):
It kind of fit in there.
Cassie Saude (12:51):
Yeah.
Ethan Waldman (12:54):
Yeah, that's, that's a really good point, I
don't think, you know, my tinyhouse was designed for, for
really one person working fromthere. And even then, you know,
it's it's the dining table isthe desk is the dining table.
It's not its own dedicatedspace, which is actually, you
know, it's kind of hard to nothave a dedicated space for
(13:14):
working. If you have to put itaway every time.
Cassie Saude (13:19):
Very true. I mean, sometimes you don't feel like
you've left work, then as well,when you have that dedicated
space, you can just choose notto sit there or not to use that
space during that time. And thenyou're not sitting there eating
dinner going, "Oh, I didn'tfinish that report today, I
should maybe I'll just hop backon and work on that for a little
(13:39):
bit."
Ethan Waldman (13:42):
Any special features for for the pups in the
house?
Cassie Saude (13:47):
They have their own dedicated cabinet with all
of their food and their toys andeverything. And then we do have
a section in our fireplacesurround in our bookshelf that
we built in for them to havelittle beds in there. So they
could have their own spot. Wehave two very small dogs under
(14:08):
seven pounds. And we diddedicate that area to them,
although they typically preferto be up on the sofa, since
that's where we hang out withthem. So they're more
comfortable, they're usuallyfit. Those are our two two fun
points that we put in for themand pretty practical too.
Ethan Waldman (14:25):
Nice. Nice. So at what point will did you go into
the build, you know, thinkinglike, "Hey, maybe, maybe I'll
you know, we'll do thisprofessionally afterwards?" Or
at what point did thattransition happen?
Richard Saude (14:43):
You know, we definitely started thinking and
kind of dreaming about it. And alot of it just came down to you
know, we love doing that so muchand we love you know being a
part of the tiny community andsince we have the available
skills we're like, "Wow, wecould really offer our services
(15:03):
here. And, and, you know, webelieve that we would, you know,
really excel and, you know, bereally, really talented and
offering what we offer." So itdefinitely started, you know, a
little seed, and then it kind ofgrew from there.
Ethan Waldman (15:19):
Yeah. And so, can you tell the story of like, what
that process was, like, youknow, kind of hanging up a
shingle as, as a professional,tiny house building company?
Cassie Saude (15:30):
Yeah, so, um, Richard was already in
construction, like he'dmentioned for pretty much all of
his adult life and, and beyond.
Kids on worksites was a greatidea. But just going through
that process, and realizing thatbeing in control of your own
quality, and being able toamplify other people's quality
(15:53):
of life with the skillset thatyou have, he decided to go off
on his own into contracting andhas a business partner that
we've worked with. And basicallywent off was doing contracting
and just kept going back to,"Why on earth Haven't we just
started doing tiny homes?"That's where the passion is, we
(16:15):
have the full skill set, we, youknow, have done so much research
into this, and are just sopassionate about the community.
So we had a big, big familyconversation between us and our
business partner, Steven. Andyeah, he was supportive of us
changing directions and ourtiptoeing into the realm was
(16:40):
what we lovingly referred to asghost building. So we've been
consulting for other tiny homecompanies that are already
national brands, and kind oftaking them back to their roots
and going, you know, "Here'swhat we can work on for you,
here's what we can improve."Because a lot of them have
gotten so big that they haveoutsourced to builders, and
(17:02):
their quality has declined dueto that. And so we've kind of
brought a force back in doingthat. And that's kind of how we
got our foot back in the door.
So we are doing our own customhomes, have our own models, but
we are also consulting for otherexisting tiny home companies and
(17:23):
helping them get back on trackso that our community benefit
from maintaining that qualityand just commitment to building
great homes, no matter whatcompany you are.
Ethan Waldman (17:35):
Interesting.
Yeah, it seems that in theprocess of scaling a tiny house
company, I would imagine that itbecomes easy, or sometimes even
necessary to kind of almost cutcorners, or to do things in a
less careful way.
Cassie Saude (17:53):
It definitely seems like folks have to let go
of some things in order to bemore efficient, or in order to
be more I assume lucrative.
Ethan Waldman (18:03):
Yeah.
Cassie Saude (18:04):
And so it really does come down to either
maintaining your scale andchoosing to stay at a certain
size and have a longer waitlist,or, you know, having less
control over things. And, youknow, having to trust other
folks to do that. So we've we'vefelt very fortunate to be able
to get in there and help peoplekind of roll things back and go,
(18:25):
you know, "You don't have tosacrifice these things to be,
you know, competitive and to,you know, keep things going."
Ethan Waldman (18:34):
Yeah, you know, I'm curious, because I would
imagine that many listeners orsome listeners out there are in
the process of looking atbuilders, and I know, they'd be
curious. Do you have any, anythings that people should kind
of look out for that would kindof, I don't know, clue them in
to like, "Hey, this builder hashas maybe started to cut some
(18:56):
corners," or just like, what aresome things to look out for in
that department,
Unknown (19:01):
I would offer the start ask for a detailed report,
inspection report on the home,just to make sure that all
proper inspections were donewith a legitimate inspection
service, you know, whateverentity that might be, that's
super important, and just, youknow, seeing what kind of
(19:22):
documentation they're willing toprovide, as far as what how they
do their process, you know, whatkind of quality control do they,
you know, processes do they haveset in place to make sure that
they limit the amount ofwarranty issues in their
product, you know, and that's,that's pretty important, I
think.
Ethan Waldman (19:40):
Yeah, that's, that's good. It sounds like you
wouldn't suggest working with abuilder who's not certified.
Richard Saude (19:49):
You know, at the end of the day, I would
recommend not. I mean, it's,it's a fairly, you know, big
procedure to get certified andbe able to build certified, but
it's necessary, it keepseverybody honest. And you know
it in my, in my experience, Imean, it would, it would, I
(20:10):
would never want to buildanything that's not certified. I
mean, it just, it makes sense toyou at the end of the day.
Cassie Saude (20:16):
And in addition to that being kind of assurance of
the quality of your home thatyou're getting, it also ensures
that if you're going to betraveling with it, that you can
be parking in RV parks, etc. Sothat kind of a multipurpose
process for that certificationto make sure that you're safe,
(20:36):
things are done properly, andyou can go the places that you
want to go without hindrance.
Ethan Waldman (20:40):
Yeah.
I asked John and Fin Kernaghanhave united Tiny House
Association what they love abouttheir PrecisionTemp hot water
heaters. And here's what theytold me.
John Kernohan (20:51):
Hey, Ethan. This is John and Fin Kernaghan with
United Tiny House Association.
Fin Kernohan (20:56):
We organize tiny house festivals.
John Kernohan (20:58):
Oh, yeah, I guess so.
Fin Kernohan (20:59):
First and foremost.
John Kernohan (21:01):
We have a total of three PrecisionTemp On Demand
hot water heaters. The thing wereally like about these and
folks know this, I think theypick this up on Fin and I, if we
don't like something, you'llnever hear us talk about it. So
the two things we noticed thatwe noticed and experienced
immediately. They tookpainstaking effort to make sure
(21:21):
that it was done right andinstalled. And so that was
pretty cool right there. Theother thing is the continuous on
demand hot water that just ranforever without any fluctuations
or anything. I can't imagine anapplication, especially in our
environment and our lifestyle ofbeing the nomad, transportable,
(21:46):
mobile, tiny lifestyle where oneof these units aren't good to
use.
Ethan Waldman (21:53):
Are you planning to do any travel with with your
house?
Cassie Saude (21:56):
We did not build our house intending on travel.
So we didn't, we are actuallyslightly over height.
Ethan Waldman (22:04):
Okay,
Cassie Saude (22:05):
So yeah, so we did not plan on traveling with our
home. Our whole process with ourhome was really intended on
being scaling down our lifestyleand being in control of our
monthly expenses so that we canwork towards owning our own
property. Because we felt likebeing stuck in an apartment in a
rental of any sort was reallygoing to negatively impact our
(22:27):
trajectory for being able to getwhere we wanted to be in life,
physically and financially. Sowe did take advantage of knowing
that we weren't going to bemoving regularly to make our
house just a little bit overheight, so that we could have a
little more headspace. In ourDutchess models that will be
custom building for folks, theywill be within height
(22:50):
restriction, because we knowthat you have to get from point
A to point B. We know that folksare probably going to want to
travel but we did not take thatinto consideration when we did
our build, because we did notintend on travel. We are very
keen on adding a van or othersmaller, movable home to our
(23:12):
repertoire when we're ready togo on vacation, etc. But yeah,
well, we'll see when we get tothat point. No vacations for a
while.
Ethan Waldman (23:25):
Yeah, so you know, how has the business
grown? It looks like, you know,just looking at your Instagram
feed, it looks like you'veyou've moved into a fairly large
space.
Cassie Saude (23:36):
Yeah, we're in about a 6000 square foot
commercial building right nowthat we are renting out. With
all of the homes that we'reworking on, we typically have
about three at a time goingwithin that space. We do
everything from the, you know,chassis up. We get the trailers
(23:57):
in depending on what specifictypes of trailer we need. And
once we get going, we have ourown cabinet shop, do all of our
own custom cabinet painting,pretty much everything is
handmade by us and our team. So,um, yeah.
Ethan Waldman (24:18):
And how many houses are you working on at the
time?
Cassie Saude (24:23):
About three of the time.
Ethan Waldman (24:25):
Okay, and why why that number does that. You know,
is there some benefit to like,doing more than one or two, but
but not more than three?
Richard Saude (24:34):
Yeah. So brief fits the best of that 6000
square foot area allowing roomto work and room to move around
and for storage.
Ethan Waldman (24:46):
Yeah.
Richard Saude (24:47):
And then also for the for the team that we have.
It works well having the two andthree going at a time so that
there can be transition intodifferent stages of those
processes. It's a little bitmore of a fluid process of
completing these builds, havingthose, you know, kind of
(25:08):
staggered. You start one andit's getting framed by the time
that houses into finish date isyou're starting to frame another
one. So it's a good, it's a goodflow for our shop.
Ethan Waldman (25:18):
Nice. And are you building only stick framed? Or
do you? Are you doing any SIPsbuilding or steel building?
Richard Saude (25:27):
We have done aluminum, the steel framing and
the SIPs and in the past, andwe're open to it. A lot of the
models and homes we're buildingright now have been
predominantly stick built at themoment.
Ethan Waldman (25:43):
Okay.
Richard Saude (25:44):
But we've we've ventured into those other
categories as well.
Ethan Waldman (25:49):
And that's just based on what the client wants?
Richard Saude (25:54):
Yeah, you know, it's a lot of preference, and
just kind of what, what worksfor that particular home? Yeah.
And
Ethan Waldman (26:04):
How far out are you booking right now for homes?
Cassie Saude (26:09):
It depends on how custom the build is. So right
now, we have a house that's inthe design process, but we won't
be starting it until thebeginning of next year, because
they chose to go with all customwindows. They're going to be
absolutely gorgeous. And we'rereally excited to share that
build when we get started. Butour rep called us a couple of
(26:31):
weeks ago and said, "I am sosorry. But these are out 32
weeks right now."So, that's been
changing things a little bit for
Ethan Waldman (26:37):
Oh my gosh.
us with the with the lead times.
But right now on our are just,you know, more strategized
builds that aren't custom orexisting models. If we go with
one of those, we're looking atabout five months out. And we do
(26:58):
stagger it based on what wealready have. If we're working
on somebody else's build ifwe're if we're ghost building.
So right now we're probablylooking at being able to take
custom orders, or more buildsprobably the beginning of the
(27:18):
year.
Nice. What arewhat are some ways actually,
first, we just want to ask howmany how many have you built
under you know on as Lionheartand and not for other builders
or not consulting?
Richard Saude (27:36):
So we've completed about a handful so
far, and we're still a fairlynew company. So we're definitely
hitting our stride right nowwith getting our shop completely
set up properly to meet thedemand that we're now seeing.
(27:57):
And also, you know, buildingfor, you know, others for ghost
building. But yeah, so we'vebeen, you know, we have our, you
know, handful that we've done.
Ethan Waldman (28:10):
Nice. How would you say? Or what are some ways
that being a tiny home dwellercreated a different perspective
as, as a professional builder orsome insight into the design and
the construction process?
Yeah. Richard,did you have anything you wanted
Cassie Saude (28:26):
Sure, it was a great question. We have a really
great ability to just placeourselves in a space and
visualize using things andeverything from how is this
going to work when you move yourhouse? How is this going to work
when you have to hook up yourhouse? How are you getting into
(28:46):
your house? When you walkthrough your house, what are you
to add to that?
seeing what are you having towalk around, it's just a really
immersive perspective. And it isa good foundation because we you
know, we live pretty basicallybut we you know, are able to
build on that with what kind ofhobbies do you have and kind of
(29:08):
fit things into the spacewithout having to retrofit
things. Since since we can dothings custom and we've you
know, experienced doing that forourselves we just we know what
to ask people. We know what tolook for. We you know have a
Richard Saude (29:21):
No, not really, she pretty much nailed it. I
great outlook on you know whereto place things to make them
Tiny House friendly but not tinyhouse dweller unfriendly.
(29:42):
mean, it just, it's a uniqueposition to be in, just being
able to picture ourselves inthat space because that's the
space we live in. So, you know,thinking about the storage and
thinking about you know, what aperson needs and you know, what
to watch out for, to, you know,sometime items, you can't have
everything that you would like,in that space. And it's really
(30:04):
our responsibility to kind ofunderstand that and relate that
back to the client that isasking for these items in their
home and just being there fortheir that support for them, you
know, so that they do end upgetting that home that they
want. And that is functional atthe end of the day.
Ethan Waldman (30:24):
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's an interesting
point of just like, meeting tobe almost like the bad cop who
says, like, "You know, sure wecould squeeze this in, but it's
gonna, it might affect yourquality of life everywhere. And
you might consider omittingsomething that you want, but
isn't as important as some otherthings."
Cassie Saude (30:44):
Absolutely. And it really is always a continuous
conversation with folks saying,"Hey, I know you really want
this, we can do it. Here's whatthat would look like, Here's
what it looked like, if wedidn't do that."
Ethan Waldman (30:57):
Yeah. Yeah. Where did the name Lionheart come
from?
Richard Saude (31:02):
That was my idea.
And that's the strength in thename and having pride in what we
do. And the loyalty and, youknow, the courage to do this,
and be there for, you know,everybody in the community. And
that's kind of where that wholeLionheart stems from is just
(31:23):
having a heart of a lion.
Ethan Waldman (31:27):
Nice. I like that. So one thing that that
continues to be a challenge inthe tiny house movement, you
know, we've we've all seen,things are really moving on the
legalization front, andparticularly in Portland, but
(31:47):
but all over the country, pieceby piece, state by state it
seems to be moving in thepro-tiny house direction. One
area where where I haven't seenvery much movement is in is in
the financing, in that, youknow, a a tiny home is
(32:08):
affordable, but it's verydifficult to get a loan for it.
And so it ends up being notavailable to those who really
need an affordable home. Whathave you seen, you know, your
clients, you know, coming inwith? Have you seen any creative
(32:30):
financing options? Or what andwhat can you do as a builder to
help make that more accessible?
Cassie Saude (32:38):
Absolutely. So I can talk a little more to the
flexible options and like thingsthat people have done that are a
little outside of the norm. Andthen I know we have a partner
that Richard will, will chatabout as well. So we actually
financed our home, and we usedin unsecured line of credit. So
(33:00):
basically, what folks can do isbe credit approved and have a
line or a loan that they getdepending on their bank,
depending on what they'reapproved for. And they can use
that for basically whatever theywant to. And your home is not
collateralizing that. Sobasically, it's like having just
a whopper of a credit card.
Typically the interest rates area lot better. But that is what
(33:22):
we did to finance our buildoriginally. And that gave us a
great kickstart. So there aredefinitely places you can do
that for larger amounts and I'veseen folks go with that. We of
course, have a few clients thathave been further along in life
than we have and were able to docash. So that's obviously always
(33:43):
an option. But definitelylooking at alternative financing
is a great idea. Well, thingsare still progressing and
becoming more tiny friendly, buttypically, yeah, either an
unsecured loan or line of somesort. I've also seen folks who
have owned their truck outright,they have a beautiful new truck
(34:07):
and they refinanced on that toget the cash from it. And
because they have that availableso just looking at what assets
you have, basically, yeah, yeah,your your credit, your, you
know, belongings what have you.
There's there's lots ofpossibilities if you if you get
creative.
Ethan Waldman (34:26):
Nice,
Richard Saude (34:28):
And then we're Lionheart homes, we actually
have financing available througha partnership with Liberty Bank
of Utah.
Ethan Waldman (34:36):
Okay.
Richard Saude (34:37):
And that's really great for you know, potential
clients, because we kind of havethat involved with us that we
can send them, you know, throughthat partnership and have that
available. And, and really, whatallowed us to get to that point
is being very detailed in ourinspection process and who we
(34:58):
work with to provide thosedetailed reports, you know, this
bank is comfortable withfinancing because of they know
the quality and what gets putinto this home. So to be able to
back it.
Ethan Waldman (35:10):
Rght, because these, the Liberty bank is
actually doing like moremortgage like loans like 10, 15,
20 year loans.
Richard Saude (35:20):
Correct.
Cassie Saude (35:20):
Right.
Ethan Waldman (35:21):
Yeah. And that's, that's a big, that's a tough nut
to crack, because that's, that'swhat actually make would make a
tiny house affordable is to, youknow, for someone to be able to
finance it over the course of,you know, 15 years or more like
a like a mortgage.
Cassie Saude (35:38):
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Ethan Waldman (35:42):
Do you know what the interest rates are like on
those loans? Are theysignificantly higher than, you
know, just like what people aregetting for a single family?
Cassie Saude (35:50):
Sure. So the last time I checked, I was going
through their previous brochure,I haven't looked lately for
their current rate, becauseprimary did just change a few
weeks ago. So that is going tochange. Everything lending
related, of course, yeah, but Ibelieve they were around 8%.
Ethan Waldman (36:09):
Yeah. Yeah.
Cassie Saude (36:10):
Which isn't horrible. Obviously it's a lot
more than a mortgage, but it's alot less than a credit card.
Ethan Waldman (36:17):
Yeah, certainly a lot less than a credit card.
Cassie Saude (36:20):
Yeah.
Ethan Waldman (36:21):
Well, one thing that I like to ask all my guests
is, you know, what are two orthree resources that that helped
you, when you were building yourtiny house that you'd like to
share with our listeners,
Richard Saude (36:32):
I think, if anybody was interested in
potentially doing a DIY buildthemselves, and they wanted to
design something, I know, forus, in our design phase of
designing our house in ourDuchess model. Like I said, we
took us about eight months todesign, we used Google SketchUp.
(36:53):
And we taught ourselves how touse that program. And that
helped tremendously. I mean, werebuilt the house, I don't know,
probably eight to a dozen timeson SketchUp just have to really
tweak everything before weactually were doing it in person
physically, and like having tomove things and adjusting. It
(37:17):
really saved a lot of time andmaterials and frustration, just
doing it on the on SketchUp.
Ethan Waldman (37:24):
Nice. And did you just, like learn from YouTube?
Did you take a course like howdid you learn SketchUp?
Richard Saude (37:32):
Yeah, basically, just YouTube, just a bunch of
tutorial videos on. You know,we, we got it to a good, you
know, I don't think we'recomplete professionals at, you
know, Google SketchUp, but wegot enough understanding of it
to make, you know, that modelhappen. So...
Ethan Waldman (37:51):
Nice.
Cassie Saude (37:52):
I have to be a complete nerd and say our local
library was great. We actuallydid a lot of research on just
different techniques for thingsthat we were already familiar
with, and just really wanted tobrush up on and, you know, they
have great ideas for, you know,air movement and you know, more
(38:14):
minut things. There's just somany resources out there that
are free and, you know,accessible to folks that you
can, you know, read ebooks andthings and read about, you know,
different, you know, types ofphysics and things that go into
processes that you're, you know,are a little more well rounded
if, if you're, again, trained toDIY things yourself, and really
(38:37):
get down into the nitty grittythat it takes to do that.
Ethan Waldman (38:42):
Nice. Well, Richard and Cassie Saide, thank
you so much for being guests onthe show. This was really fun.
Cassie Saude (38:50):
Thanks so much for having us. It was great.
Ethan Waldman (38:54):
Thank you so much to Richard and Cassie Saude of
Lionheart homes for being guestson the show today. You can find
the show notes, including photosof their various homes that
they've builtt and lots of linksto social media accounts and
more, plus a complete transcriptfrom this episode at
thetinyhouse.net/219. Again,that's thetinyhouse.net/219.
(39:18):
Well, that's all for this week.
I'm your host, Ethan Waldman,and I'll be back next week with
another episode of the TinyHouse Lifestyle Podcast.
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