We break down a simple framework for growing a B2B network without spam: expand into the right communities, deepen ties without more calls, and invite people closer with specific five-minute asks. Clear systems, steady cadence, and trust-first behavior turn goodwill into predictable revenue.
• the three seasons of growth: expand, deepen, invite
• how to spot season changes in your pipeline
• deepening without Zoom: comments, spotlights, intros, resources
• making small, specific asks that get a yes
• blocking a weekly sacred sales hour for five touches
• prioritizing past clients, referrers, superconnectors, supersharers
• joining one new niche community per quarter
• right-sizing asks to relationship trust levels
• avoiding vague referrals with researched introductions
• using light tools to avoid outreach overwhelm
Head down to the show notes page and sign up for the wait list to join the tiny marketing club where you get to work one-on-one with me with trainings, feedback, and pop up coaching that will help you scale your marketing as a B2B service business
Meet Jessica Lackey -
**Jessica Lackey** is the founder of Deeper Foundations, a consulting and training firm that helps expertise-based business owners grow and scale sustainable companies rooted in stronger business foundations. She brings a unique blend of corporate expertise and soulful business building, drawing on an MBA from Harvard Business School, a coaching certification from iPEC, and experience at McKinsey & Company and Nike, Inc. Jessica has supported over 200 entrepreneurs through her programs, blending systems thinking, operational rigor, and deep values alignment. She lives in Charlotte, North Carolina, with her husband.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:03):
Podcast that helps B2B service businesses do more
with less.
Learn lean, actionable, organicmarketing strategies you can
implement today.
No fluff, just powerful growthtactics at work.
Ready to scale smarter?
Hit that subscribe button andstart growing your business with
tiny marketing.
SPEAKER_01 (00:23):
Hello, my name is Jessica Lackey.
I'm the founder of DeeperFoundations, a consultancy
helping experts implement thefoundations for sustainable
growth and scale.
SPEAKER_00 (00:34):
Yes.
So we had a pre-call and youwere telling me about
relationship rhythms.
And I feel like it's probablypretty close to what I do.
And I'm dying to hear what thisis from your point of view.
So can you describe whatrelationship rhythms are?
(00:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:58):
So it's the systematic approach to build,
engage, and invite people withinyour network.
A lot of relationship buildinghappens when we're not in sales
mode, it happens intuitively.
We're just like we, you know,send birthday cards, we send,
you know, we send mail, weinvite people, we ask them to do
(01:20):
things.
But whenever we get into salesmode, it feels challenging, it
feels hard, it feels like Idon't wanna.
So relationship rhythms is astructured approach to build
your network, build thoserelationships, and really starts
to outline the invisible laborthat happens when you build
relationships.
SPEAKER_00 (01:41):
Okay.
Um, I'm intrigued.
So that's kind of what I talkabout in that like what we're
doing here, especially when youlike hate sales, it's you're
building relationships at scale.
You're just making friends, andsometimes those friends become
clients.
So can you walk me through whatthose rhythms look like?
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
Yeah.
So, you know, when we're tryingto build our network, we are
expanding our network, talkingto people we don't know.
We are deepening therelationship with the people
that we do know, and then we areinviting people in closer.
So we don't just do this withclients, we do this with
collaborators and connectors.
Because, you know, when we oneof the ways to get in front of
(02:27):
uh, you know, get new clients isto get in front of other
people's audiences.
But if people don't know you, ifpeople are kind of like, oh, I
see you on the internet, likethey're not going to be like,
oh, let's collaborate.
Let me use my platform tospotlight someone who I don't
know very well, right?
We have to build thatrelationship.
Yeah.
This is it's making theexplicit, you know, making the
(02:49):
implicit rather explicit, whichis like you have to meet them,
then you have to becomefriendly, and then you have to
make the ask.
And by breaking it down intothose phases, it becomes uh
people can be like, oh, I'm in aseason of deepening, I'm in a
season of expansion, I'm in aseason of inviting.
And those are by putting nameson it, it makes it clear what
(03:12):
we're trying to do here versusjust like, let's get a coffee
chat together.
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
Yeah.
Okay.
Can you walk me through thoseseasons and how you would even
identify them for yourself?
Yeah.
So the expand season.
SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
So the this is when you figure out that you've been
talking to kind of the same 50people for like a couple of
years now.
You're like, all right, the samepeople are coming to my events,
the same people are the ones I'mfollowing up with, the referrals
are coming from the same people.
And at some point, you're gonnatap out your network.
So expand season is a season oflike, I'm going to get to know
(03:48):
different people.
I'm going to ex, you know,clearly put myself in new
communities.
I'm going to maybe DM somepeople on LinkedIn.
I'm going to like a make aconcerted effort to get outside
my existing network.
Yeah.
Deepening is the season whereyou are building those
relationships.
And again, most people, when wethink of deepening, particularly
(04:10):
with like clients, you're like,oh, let me check in.
How are you doing?
But deepening doesn't have tojust be like, hey, let's get on
a Zoom call and catch up.
This can be demonstrating yourauthority.
It can be offering to help whenthis is something.
It can make connections forthem.
There's lots of ways that don'trequire a Zoom call to
demonstrate to people thatyou're paying attention and you
care about them.
SPEAKER_00 (04:31):
That's good.
That's good.
People are so tired of being oncalls anymore.
And that's probably the biggestpushback I get from clients is
like, I don't want to be oncalls.
I'm like, yeah, calls make youmoney.
They do.
SPEAKER_01 (04:45):
But a lot of times, you know, I, you know, I've made
money.
I've sold, you know, lots ofthings to people who I'm not on
calls with, but when they postsomething on LinkedIn, I comment
on it, I'm go out of my way tomake a connection for them.
I go out of my way to spotlightthem in my newsletter when they
didn't ask for it.
And they're like, oh my God, youput my stuff in your newsletter.
(05:07):
That counts as deepening therelationship, even though it
didn't require me getting on acall.
That makes total sense.
And then there's inviting.
How many of your people, youknow, they build relationships,
they add value, they servepeople, but they never make the
ask.
And the ask doesn't have to belet's work together, although
sometimes it should be and itcan be, but sometimes the ask is
(05:29):
just moving them a little closerto you, asking for feedback,
asking them for a connection,you know, asking them to, you
know, asking to collaborate onsomething together.
We, you know, when we haveplanted seeds, we have to, you
know, use what we planted everyonce in a while.
Otherwise, people don't know howto be of service to you.
(05:51):
And people love being ofservice.
Actually, that's, you know, whenwhen we don't ask our neighbor
for a cup of sugar, then ourneighbor doesn't know that it's
okay for them to ask for a cupof sugar.
They don't know that it's goodfor them to like, it doesn't
strengthen the bonds.
And we try to pretend like wecan do it all ourselves.
So asking for little thingsmakes it easier for everyone to
ask for the big thing.
SPEAKER_00 (06:11):
That is something my husband and I talk about all the
time because we both have such ahard time asking for help.
And we have to remind each otherlike that's how you build
relationships.
Like, that's how you build adeeper relationship is being
vulnerable and allowing otherpeople to feel comfortable being
vulnerable with you.
unknown (06:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:32):
And a lot of times people are like, Well, I asked
for referral.
I'm like, well, one, no one justlike thinks of people to refer
to you when you say, Do you knowanyone that wants to work to me?
But two, like, help help themhelp you by doing the emotional
and physical mental labor of whodo you want to meet in their
network?
(06:52):
Do some research and say, Canyou make an introduction to this
person?
versus, do you know someone thatyou can introduce me to?
If someone says, Can you make anintroduction to this person?
I'm gonna do what I can.
They're gonna send me a blurb,they're gonna tell me the
context, I'll make theintroduction.
When someone says, Who do youknow that could use me?
I'm like, I I don't know.
If something comes to mind, I'llthink of it.
So don't just ask for anintroduction, ask for the one
(07:16):
you want.
SPEAKER_00 (07:17):
That is such good advice.
That is such good advice.
Like all they'd have to do is goand see who you interact with or
who you've connected with onLinkedIn to be able to come up
with that.
It's so specific.
It I love that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:33):
You know how at the end of every Zoom copy chat,
someone says, Oh, how can Ihelp?
Yes, every single one.
Be prepared with somethingthat's super small they can do
for you.
If you're like, hey, I'm hostinga workshop, can you put it in
your newsletter?
Or, hey, I'd like to get sometraction on this LinkedIn post.
Can you comment on it or saysomething insightful about it?
(07:57):
People give people something toactually help you with that
doesn't take more than fiveminutes of their time that they
can actually help you withbecause then you've closed the
loop in a way that makes themfeel good.
Like they actually could helpyou.
It's something simple.
So you know they're gonna askyou, they're not gonna have a
client for you right away.
Um, they might not want tocollaborate with you because
(08:19):
they don't know you very well.
But when they say, How can Ihelp?
be prepared with a way that theycan help you with something
short, sweet, and small.
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
Yes.
I love how specific you are too.
Like it's such a specific askthat you have.
And a lot of the asks that youcame up with as examples were
really kind of gives because youwere giving them um like a
platform or a spotlight.
Like if you ask them to be, likeif you could supply a quote for
(08:52):
this article as an example,you're also getting that
backlink and you're getting thatextra visibility.
So it's a little, it's a littlebit of a give, too.
SPEAKER_01 (09:02):
We we always want to serve, and people just people
are so busy.
People are just inundated withinformation.
If you can make it simple forpeople to help you, they will.
They want to help you.
And so that's where having asystem, a structured system of
saying, you know, what season amI in?
Am I in an expand season, adeepen season, an inviting
(09:23):
season?
Grant, you do all these thingsnaturally in a season.
Like you're not gonna be like,oh, I'm gonna spend an entire
quarter just talking to newpeople.
But yeah, you might over-indexon like, let's talk to, let's
talk to new people, let's joinsome new communities, let's make
some, you know, new connections.
I'm in a book launch seasonright now, so I'm going to go
(09:46):
back to everyone who podcastsI've been on, whose work I've
spotlighted, whose relationshipsI've built, and said, Hey, can
you put my book in yournewsletter?
Like I'm going back to everybodybecause it's been a couple of
years where I haven't reallytapped into those relationships.
And people are like, Oh my God,you've been so supportive of me
over the last couple of years.
Of course, how can I help you?
(10:06):
And I can say, here's how youcan help me.
So I'm specific.
Because I think we have to bedirect, not pushy, not salesy,
but we have to be specificbecause, you know, if they can't
do what you're asking in likefive minutes, you know, what's
the chances that they're gonnaget distracted by something else
and not do it?
Like a hundred percent becauseall the time.
(10:28):
We're we're really, really busyright now.
And so I think that's wherehaving a system for staying in
touch with people is about kindof bite-sizing things so that
they're not so intimidating foranybody.
SPEAKER_00 (10:41):
Yeah, yeah.
I yeah, I I currently have aguilt in me because someone
asked me to do something andthen I got COVID and I forgot.
It never happened and it missedthe deadline.
But if it was like just like oneof those bite-sized favors, I
would have just done it thatsecond.
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
Yeah, and I think this is where, again, going back
to that invisible labor, um, youknow, this is one of the things
people are like, oh, let me do ahundred touch challenge or let
me do one email a week to yourone email a day to people to
build my network.
Well, if you send out a hundredemails for, you know, outreach
emails, you know you're gonnaget like 50 back kind of
(11:24):
quickly.
Do you have the time to respondto all the pings you sent?
Do you have time to pong?
Do you have time to follow upwith people so that you actually
kind of build that relationshipand do something with what the
conversation you started?
Most people don't have dedicatedtime to send emails and send
outreach and send cards, butthey also don't have dedicated
(11:45):
time to respond to these things.
The worst thing you want to dois like start a bunch of
conversations with people thatthen you get overwhelmed because
you didn't block the time torespond to the conversation
because then someone else islike, oh my God, they reached
out and started a conversationwith me and then they dropped it
and didn't go anywhere.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (12:01):
Yeah.
Um, okay, I have a lot ofquestions, but I want to ask
them organized.
Um, so what you cued, like youteed me up for one specifically,
though.
How do you create a system wherethey don't, where this doesn't
fall apart?
Like, are you time blocking?
Is it like the world's best CRMin the air table?
(12:25):
What is a good system for this?
SPEAKER_01 (12:27):
Really, I think that if you block an hour once a week
in my program, we call it theSacred Sales Hour.
If you block an hour once a weekand send five outreaches,
generally speak that varybetween past clients and present
clients.
Generally speaking, you're gonnahit your whole network in a
year, which is fine.
Because what is time, anyways,especially if you're staying top
(12:47):
of mind with reasonably frequentLinkedIn posting and
newsletters, it's not like theyhaven't seen you, you know.
So you don't need to like followup with people every, you know,
every quarter.
Cause generally speaking, you'reprobably in the orbit of a lot
of people, anyways.
People occasionally see yourstuff.
You're not, you know, completelyout of, you know, out of sight,
out of mind.
If you are out of side, out ofmind, I would address that.
(13:09):
I would make sure you are notthis shape.
I would not uh stay where peopleliterally don't see your name
except for the one email a yearyou get.
But this is where it's like,okay, you know, if you do five a
week, five touches a week, andyour network that you can stay
in touch with is like 150-ishpeople.
That's Dunbar's number.
You're gonna hit your wholenetwork in a year.
(13:29):
You're gonna expand yournetwork.
There are some people you wantto follow up with more
regularly, past clients,prospects, those should be on a
quarterly list.
But, you know, your bestreferral partners probably every
three to six months.
But I don't think people need asuper complicated CRM.
I'm much more concerned withsending five emails a week than
tracking who you sent them tobecause generally speaking,
(13:49):
you're gonna hit everyone thatmatters if you commit to five a
week, anyways.
SPEAKER_00 (13:53):
Yeah.
I did something like this littletwo Januaries ago.
I did like a 30-day sprint ofthis.
And um, I've talked about this athousand times.
So you've probably heard thisstory.
Um, but I was able to close94,000 within that 30-day
period.
(14:14):
And um I used Airtable to trackit and boomerang.
Those were my two best friends.
It was an air table boomerangcombo, and that's how I was able
to keep up with theconversations and make sure that
they didn't disappear.
SPEAKER_01 (14:31):
Yeah.
And I love I love that.
If you are needing to getclients in the door, a kind of
burst mode like what you'retalking about, hugely relevant,
hugely helpful, probably want tosystem for that.
But a lot of people are like,the tech is overwhelming.
They're not really, and I'mlike, I don't care how you send,
just you know, don't send likeif you if you're kind of in
maintenance mode with yourbusiness right now, just send
(14:52):
five emails a week and do it inone block a time and just come
back to that on a regular basis.
Then it's not too many emails,it's not too few emails.
You stay in the rhythm of it.
And if you don't love tech, youdon't need to love tech.
In order, your goal is just tostay in motion, stay in rhythm
and notice.
Have I been talking to just thesame people?
(15:12):
Have I done any asking lately?
It's more of like a notificationnoticing of the rhythms versus
the specificity of when you, Imean, I don't know about you,
but if someone's not in my salespipeline and I get a
notification like in my CRM totell them, tell them, tell me to
follow up with them, I justignore it.
Sales pipeline, you needreminders.
Yeah.
(15:32):
Track that stuff super carefullywith your sales pipeline, but
just in your regular network,every time I get like a
follow-up notification forsomeone, like, oh, you need to
follow up with them, I justsnooze and ignore it.
I'm like, I'll get to it at somepoint.
Oh, I'm a snoozer too.
Yeah.
So sales pipeline, follow uplike a hawk.
unknown (15:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
Your relationship pipeline, it's really just about
rhythms and it's about being inmotion and staying in the flow
of it versus the specificity of,oh, when did I last talk to this
person?
SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I guess my fear would be likehow do I know which people in my
network?
Like my network is big.
How do I specify like who it isthat makes sense to reach out
(16:24):
to?
Is there a specific list likepast clients you mentioned
before?
Um maybe people that you workedwith at a company before might
be part of it.
I don't know.
Tell me, tell me what are yourlists.
SPEAKER_01 (16:38):
So you have your past and present clients.
You have your prospects, thoseare on a list.
You have the people that referyou business and the people
where you've been on theirplatforms before and gotten you
business.
So, like between your past andpresent clients and the people
that regularly send youbusiness, you're, you know,
somewhere in the probably 40 to50 people list.
(16:59):
And then you're kind of lookingfor like, who are like them that
I can make relationships with?
If these people send mereferrals, who's someone similar
to them that alt myself send mereferrals?
And if I get a lot of, you know,love from this community, how
can I deepen relationships inthe communities I'm already in?
Right.
We're, you know, we're not justtrying to, we're really looking
(17:19):
for the people that, you know,have altered have complimentary
audiences, have proven that theyhave referred to us.
We want to like continue todeepen the relationship with
them instead of having to gosuper broad.
We're like, you know, I I reallyfeel especially, and you also
want to be on lookup for superconnectors.
I don't know if you've coveredthis with your your audience.
SPEAKER_00 (17:38):
I haven't, but please do because I love my I
love my superconnectors.
SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
There are people that are super, they're super
connectors and super sharers.
So the super sharers are theones that tend to consume and
share a lot of information.
So if you're trying to get your,they're the ones that, you know,
their audience expects maybe acouple links in a newsletter, or
they do a lot of cross-promotionand people really like what they
we they do.
Superconnectors are the onesthat are sort of like they know
(18:05):
everybody.
So, and they connect you toeverybody freely.
So you're probably a superconnector within my sphere.
I'm a bit of a super connector.
And so you want to get to knowthem because getting to know
them means that they're gonnaget to know a lot of people.
Um, like I have I have onebookkeeper who I refer, I think
I've referred like seven clientsto because of like how she does
(18:28):
her bookkeeping.
She loves Jessica.
She loves it.
And so, you know, if she'slistening to this, which she's
not, but um, you know, I shouldbe getting gifts and I should be
getting referrals back if I can.
And I should, you know, liketake care of the people that um
that send you business becausethey're going to there are some
of us in our profession, yourprofession, my profession.
(18:50):
Like our job is to get to knowpeople.
So get to know the people whosejob it is to get to know people.
SPEAKER_00 (18:56):
Yeah, that is that's perfection.
Um and you're right, my job isto know people at this point.
It wasn't at the beginning, butit is now.
SPEAKER_01 (19:07):
Yeah, and I think this it's it sounds
transactional.
And it sounds a little, oh,like, you know, I'm putting
people in tears and lists.
This is how networks operate,right?
There's always so we're reallyjust taking it from the abstract
to the intuitive into somethingthat can, like, you know, be
something that lives on acalendar, can be something that
(19:28):
lives in a spreadsheet.
And once people get in therhythm, so one of my clients,
she um at the beginning of theyear, she sent a Starbucks gift
card for coffee um to everyclient.
She works with inliteracy, soshe works with schools.
And so she couldn't necessarilydrop coffee off at everyone's
desk, although she did try.
Um, but she sent it a valianteffort.
(19:51):
Well, you know, some you know,the ones where it was in driving
distance, she totally boughtthem coffee.
And the ones that were out ofstate, she'd not bring them
coffee.
She got she got um two inquiriesfrom that.
Because it was past clients andit was, hey, here's the
beginning of school, you know,have a cup of coffee on me.
Here's the new year.
And people are like, they itwasn't about her at all.
(20:13):
It was only about them.
They were pleased, they reachedout and said, Oh, thank you so
much.
Oh, by the way, I've beenmeaning to talk to you.
Thank you for the re you know,the excuse to reach out.
SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
Yeah, I think that that's so you hit on a couple
things.
When I talk about my biz devsystems, I also get the feeling
that people think like it'smanipulative, it's
transactional, but it's reallynot.
It's just how I'm able to makerelationships at scale.
Like I even do some of thisstuff with my friends just to
(20:45):
make sure that I have touchpoints with like my friends that
have moved across the country orwhatever.
Without a system, even thoserelationships would eventually
fade.
SPEAKER_01 (20:56):
Yeah, and and this is about noticing.
Again, you know, not everyinvitation is going to be right
for for you, not every way, youknow, like some people are
really good with expanding theirnetwork through cool DMs and
some people aren't.
You you have, but it's like youhave to do, you have to meet new
people, you have to stay intouch with the people you are in
relationship with.
(21:17):
It's probably a good idea tothank them and be of service on
a, you know, in a wildlyunscalable way as you're
building your business.
And then you have to make asks,um, more asks than you think.
But again, they don't have to besalesy or pushy, but they do
have to invite people to take astepboard.
And by giving language to it,people can really start to see
(21:38):
oh, I can name a pattern and Ican do something about that
versus just like I need tonetwork more.
SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I love that you broke thisdown into like those seasons
because I've never thought aboutit that way.
So when I said, Well, I have alot of questions, one of those
questions was, what are someaction steps we can take in each
of those seasons that just likea listener could be like, okay,
(22:08):
I gotta do this when I'm in thatseason.
SPEAKER_01 (22:11):
Well, the expand season actually goes hand in
hand with the ask season becauseyou can ask your clients what
conferences they're going to,what communities they're a part
of, who else they follow, whoelse they read, which is an ask,
which helps you expand yournetwork.
So and an easy ask.
It's an easy ask, a thick ask.
It's an easy, you're not like,you know, the question is where
(22:32):
would I find more people likeyou?
And what communities are you in?
And then I would join thosecommunities and don't just like
join and then not, you know,meet people and DM people and be
part of the conversations.
And sure, you can't do that inlike 20 places.
So pick a season or pick acommunity, pick a network every
season, pick a new place tospend some time and get to know
(22:52):
some people.
And again, it sounds a littletransactional, but like rotate
it.
Don't just like be in onecommunity, join like one new
community a season and get toknow people, and you would be
surprised how quickly yournetwork expands.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
You are so that is the thing that I talk about the
most is those niche communitiesare the easiest way to meet the
right people because you canfind the ones that are
specifically like your idealdream clients and go hang out
there, make relationships there.
But um, in that 30-day sprint Iwas telling you about, that was
(23:27):
one of the things I did heavilyand I tracked like which
communities were building likestrong relationships.
And then I was able to just cutthe ones that didn't and go more
in on those.
And then I, you know, would trya new one maybe the next
quarter.
SPEAKER_01 (23:42):
Yeah.
It's like planting seeds.
You're like, all right, I'mplanting a garden.
If I plant these seasons overhere, that might not work.
If I plant these seeds overhere, it might bloom into like
an amazing plant.
And then I'm gonna like doubledown over there.
Yeah.
If you're deepeningrelationships, just really think
about different ways to deepenrelationships besides calls.
(24:02):
So again, this could be makingconnections for people.
I always like the double opt-inconnection though, like ask both
parties if they want to beconnected.
Um, send resources that you knowwould be interested, interesting
to them.
Could be your resource, could betheir resource, like someone
else's resource.
Like, if I, you know, ourpodcast is gonna go out and I'm
(24:22):
gonna send it a bunch of peopleand I'm gonna be like, hey, like
I recorded this and I had you onmy mind when I was doing it
because you're in a season ofinviting.
Here's some big ideas.
Um, and then curate your ownevents, not maybe online or
things like that, but like haveyour own, have something to
invite people to to come learnmore.
Huge.
It's it's huge.
Like, you know, let people knowyou enough.
(24:45):
And then inviting again, we'vetalked about this a little bit,
but um, you know, past clients,invite them to a conversation
about what's next.
Um, one of my someone I I followonline said, um, just because
they might not work next withyou, if you are the one that
facilitates them to their goals,regardless of who it's with,
they're gonna remember that.
(25:06):
So, you know, you should alwaysknow what their 2026 projects
are and how can you be helpfulin getting them to their goals,
regardless of whether that'sworking with you or not.
Um, but again, the ask can besmall, they should be specific,
and they should be somethingthat people can say yes to or no
to without like a ton ofthinking about it.
(25:27):
But, you know, people say, Oh,would you like to do this
collaboration?
I'm like, Yes, I would, becauseI want to get in front of your
audience, you want to get infront of my audience.
Thank you for taking the time toask, right?
It's the people that ask forwhat they're looking for at the
right size of the relationshiptrust level, they'll they'll get
(25:48):
what they want.
SPEAKER_00 (25:50):
Yeah, okay.
I loved absolutely everythingyou said in this episode.
I am probably going to also havethis episode in the tiny
marketing club as like bonusmaterial in the biz dev section.
It's that good.
Like the thing that really stuckout to me is like people have a
(26:14):
hard time understanding thatwhen you're doing that, that
give, when you're when you're sohere, let me backwards.
A couple of weeks ago, I had apodcast episode where I was
talking about LinkedInprospecting.
And I talked about this warmingup period and problem
exploration.
(26:36):
And the thing that really pissedpeople off, honestly, was like
that they thought it would be apitch when the problem
exploration is really you'rediscovering what they have next
or what challenge is happening.
So you can give them a resourceand build trust with them,
whether that's you or someoneelse.
Like that resource could beintroducing them to someone
(26:59):
else.
It could be an asset thatbelongs to someone else.
It's not necessarily you.
And that doesn't mean that youwon't turn into their contractor
or consultant one day, but todayisn't the day they need you.
And I would pull people off.
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
Well, I will say um on LinkedIn, and this is just my
perspective.
If you ask me a hard question inthe LinkedIn DMs, I will ignore
you because I'm too I'm like,someone asked me a question.
She's like, if you could snapyour fingers and change one
thing about your mindset, whatwould you change?
And I'm like, I don't know.
This is a hard question.
SPEAKER_00 (27:34):
I would delete that.
I would delete that.
No, this would be like after youhave built a relationship with
them, that's when you start withthe problem exploration
conversations.
SPEAKER_01 (27:46):
Yeah, but I I'm like, I I'm like, please don't
make me think in my yeah, youknow, in my DMs.
SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
I've had that question too.
Someone has asked me that.
SPEAKER_01 (27:55):
Yeah, and I think like if you go in with the
intention of being salesy,people people know it.
But if you approach all yourinteractions with humanness, um,
and again, move at the speed oftrust, you know, you'll be fine.
Yeah, I love that phrase.
SPEAKER_00 (28:14):
I should name this episode that.
Uh thank you so much for joiningme.
Can you tell us one about yourbook and two about your program?
SPEAKER_01 (28:25):
So the book is called Leaving the Casino, Stop
Betting on Tactics and StartBuilding a Business That Works.
It's available on my site.
Basically, all the advice we'regiven as in the entrepreneurial
casino is designed for one typeof business.
And that might not be thebusiness you want to run.
So, how do we step away from theloud, shiny, flashy tactics and
(28:46):
start building a business thatworks for us?
So it's very practical,shockingly practical guide to
some of the business decisionsthat you would make.
And then the um program in mymembership, the program, um, the
sales program we talked aboutwas called relationship rhythms.
And we execute on that everyweek in my membership called the
(29:06):
Deeper Foundations membership.
We have sales sacred hour once aweek.
SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
Nice.
Okay.
I will have links.
I was just looking over at yourform to see if I have them
already.
I have deeperfoundations.com.
So that is for your program?
SPEAKER_01 (29:25):
That's for that's for kind of like the one stop
shop for it all.
SPEAKER_00 (29:28):
Okay.
And then we have predictablerevenue roadmap.com.
That is about that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:34):
Yeah, the predictable revenue roadmap is
the kind of five steps topredictable revenue.
One of those steps is routineoutreach.
But if you want to know theother four things that I see are
problematic keeping people fromum predictable revenue months,
um, that's in the roadmap.
SPEAKER_00 (29:52):
Awesome.
This was such a goodconversation.
Thank you so much.
She's also on LinkedIn.
I have that here.
So I will have all of Theselinks in the show notes.
And I hope we can continue thisrelationship.
Speaking of relationshiprhythms, because I just think
you're brilliant and our uhideas align.
(30:15):
You love all things tinymarketing.
Head down to the show notes pageand sign up for the wait list to
join the tiny marketing clubwhere you get to work one-on-one
with me with trainings,feedback, and pop up coaching
that will help you scale yourmarketing as a B2B service
(30:36):
business.
So I'll see you over in theclub.
Podcast that helps B2B service businesses do more
with less.
Learn lean, actionable, organicmarketing strategies you can
implement today.
No fluff, just powerful growthtactics at work.
Ready to scale smarter?
Hit that subscribe button andstart growing your business with
tiny marketing.
SPEAKER_01 (00:23):
Hello, my name is Jessica Lackey.
I'm the founder of DeeperFoundations, a consultancy
helping experts implement thefoundations for sustainable
growth and scale.
SPEAKER_00 (00:34):
Yes.
So we had a pre-call and youwere telling me about
relationship rhythms.
And I feel like it's probablypretty close to what I do.
And I'm dying to hear what thisis from your point of view.
So can you describe whatrelationship rhythms are?
(00:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:58):
So it's the systematic approach to build,
engage, and invite people withinyour network.
A lot of relationship buildinghappens when we're not in sales
mode, it happens intuitively.
We're just like we, you know,send birthday cards, we send,
you know, we send mail, weinvite people, we ask them to do
(01:20):
things.
But whenever we get into salesmode, it feels challenging, it
feels hard, it feels like Idon't wanna.
So relationship rhythms is astructured approach to build
your network, build thoserelationships, and really starts
to outline the invisible laborthat happens when you build
relationships.
SPEAKER_00 (01:41):
Okay.
Um, I'm intrigued.
So that's kind of what I talkabout in that like what we're
doing here, especially when youlike hate sales, it's you're
building relationships at scale.
You're just making friends, andsometimes those friends become
clients.
So can you walk me through whatthose rhythms look like?
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
Yeah.
So, you know, when we're tryingto build our network, we are
expanding our network, talkingto people we don't know.
We are deepening therelationship with the people
that we do know, and then we areinviting people in closer.
So we don't just do this withclients, we do this with
collaborators and connectors.
Because, you know, when we oneof the ways to get in front of
(02:27):
uh, you know, get new clients isto get in front of other
people's audiences.
But if people don't know you, ifpeople are kind of like, oh, I
see you on the internet, likethey're not going to be like,
oh, let's collaborate.
Let me use my platform tospotlight someone who I don't
know very well, right?
We have to build thatrelationship.
Yeah.
This is it's making theexplicit, you know, making the
(02:49):
implicit rather explicit, whichis like you have to meet them,
then you have to becomefriendly, and then you have to
make the ask.
And by breaking it down intothose phases, it becomes uh
people can be like, oh, I'm in aseason of deepening, I'm in a
season of expansion, I'm in aseason of inviting.
And those are by putting nameson it, it makes it clear what
(03:12):
we're trying to do here versusjust like, let's get a coffee
chat together.
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
Yeah.
Okay.
Can you walk me through thoseseasons and how you would even
identify them for yourself?
Yeah.
So the expand season.
SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
So the this is when you figure out that you've been
talking to kind of the same 50people for like a couple of
years now.
You're like, all right, the samepeople are coming to my events,
the same people are the ones I'mfollowing up with, the referrals
are coming from the same people.
And at some point, you're gonnatap out your network.
So expand season is a season oflike, I'm going to get to know
(03:48):
different people.
I'm going to ex, you know,clearly put myself in new
communities.
I'm going to maybe DM somepeople on LinkedIn.
I'm going to like a make aconcerted effort to get outside
my existing network.
Yeah.
Deepening is the season whereyou are building those
relationships.
And again, most people, when wethink of deepening, particularly
(04:10):
with like clients, you're like,oh, let me check in.
How are you doing?
But deepening doesn't have tojust be like, hey, let's get on
a Zoom call and catch up.
This can be demonstrating yourauthority.
It can be offering to help whenthis is something.
It can make connections forthem.
There's lots of ways that don'trequire a Zoom call to
demonstrate to people thatyou're paying attention and you
care about them.
SPEAKER_00 (04:31):
That's good.
That's good.
People are so tired of being oncalls anymore.
And that's probably the biggestpushback I get from clients is
like, I don't want to be oncalls.
I'm like, yeah, calls make youmoney.
They do.
SPEAKER_01 (04:45):
But a lot of times, you know, I, you know, I've made
money.
I've sold, you know, lots ofthings to people who I'm not on
calls with, but when they postsomething on LinkedIn, I comment
on it, I'm go out of my way tomake a connection for them.
I go out of my way to spotlightthem in my newsletter when they
didn't ask for it.
And they're like, oh my God, youput my stuff in your newsletter.
(05:07):
That counts as deepening therelationship, even though it
didn't require me getting on acall.
That makes total sense.
And then there's inviting.
How many of your people, youknow, they build relationships,
they add value, they servepeople, but they never make the
ask.
And the ask doesn't have to belet's work together, although
sometimes it should be and itcan be, but sometimes the ask is
(05:29):
just moving them a little closerto you, asking for feedback,
asking them for a connection,you know, asking them to, you
know, asking to collaborate onsomething together.
We, you know, when we haveplanted seeds, we have to, you
know, use what we planted everyonce in a while.
Otherwise, people don't know howto be of service to you.
(05:51):
And people love being ofservice.
Actually, that's, you know, whenwhen we don't ask our neighbor
for a cup of sugar, then ourneighbor doesn't know that it's
okay for them to ask for a cupof sugar.
They don't know that it's goodfor them to like, it doesn't
strengthen the bonds.
And we try to pretend like wecan do it all ourselves.
So asking for little thingsmakes it easier for everyone to
ask for the big thing.
SPEAKER_00 (06:11):
That is something my husband and I talk about all the
time because we both have such ahard time asking for help.
And we have to remind each otherlike that's how you build
relationships.
Like, that's how you build adeeper relationship is being
vulnerable and allowing otherpeople to feel comfortable being
vulnerable with you.
unknown (06:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:32):
And a lot of times people are like, Well, I asked
for referral.
I'm like, well, one, no one justlike thinks of people to refer
to you when you say, Do you knowanyone that wants to work to me?
But two, like, help help themhelp you by doing the emotional
and physical mental labor of whodo you want to meet in their
network?
(06:52):
Do some research and say, Canyou make an introduction to this
person?
versus, do you know someone thatyou can introduce me to?
If someone says, Can you make anintroduction to this person?
I'm gonna do what I can.
They're gonna send me a blurb,they're gonna tell me the
context, I'll make theintroduction.
When someone says, Who do youknow that could use me?
I'm like, I I don't know.
If something comes to mind, I'llthink of it.
So don't just ask for anintroduction, ask for the one
(07:16):
you want.
SPEAKER_00 (07:17):
That is such good advice.
That is such good advice.
Like all they'd have to do is goand see who you interact with or
who you've connected with onLinkedIn to be able to come up
with that.
It's so specific.
It I love that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:33):
You know how at the end of every Zoom copy chat,
someone says, Oh, how can Ihelp?
Yes, every single one.
Be prepared with somethingthat's super small they can do
for you.
If you're like, hey, I'm hostinga workshop, can you put it in
your newsletter?
Or, hey, I'd like to get sometraction on this LinkedIn post.
Can you comment on it or saysomething insightful about it?
(07:57):
People give people something toactually help you with that
doesn't take more than fiveminutes of their time that they
can actually help you withbecause then you've closed the
loop in a way that makes themfeel good.
Like they actually could helpyou.
It's something simple.
So you know they're gonna askyou, they're not gonna have a
client for you right away.
Um, they might not want tocollaborate with you because
(08:19):
they don't know you very well.
But when they say, How can Ihelp?
be prepared with a way that theycan help you with something
short, sweet, and small.
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
Yes.
I love how specific you are too.
Like it's such a specific askthat you have.
And a lot of the asks that youcame up with as examples were
really kind of gives because youwere giving them um like a
platform or a spotlight.
Like if you ask them to be, likeif you could supply a quote for
(08:52):
this article as an example,you're also getting that
backlink and you're getting thatextra visibility.
So it's a little, it's a littlebit of a give, too.
SPEAKER_01 (09:02):
We we always want to serve, and people just people
are so busy.
People are just inundated withinformation.
If you can make it simple forpeople to help you, they will.
They want to help you.
And so that's where having asystem, a structured system of
saying, you know, what season amI in?
Am I in an expand season, adeepen season, an inviting
(09:23):
season?
Grant, you do all these thingsnaturally in a season.
Like you're not gonna be like,oh, I'm gonna spend an entire
quarter just talking to newpeople.
But yeah, you might over-indexon like, let's talk to, let's
talk to new people, let's joinsome new communities, let's make
some, you know, new connections.
I'm in a book launch seasonright now, so I'm going to go
(09:46):
back to everyone who podcastsI've been on, whose work I've
spotlighted, whose relationshipsI've built, and said, Hey, can
you put my book in yournewsletter?
Like I'm going back to everybodybecause it's been a couple of
years where I haven't reallytapped into those relationships.
And people are like, Oh my God,you've been so supportive of me
over the last couple of years.
Of course, how can I help you?
(10:06):
And I can say, here's how youcan help me.
So I'm specific.
Because I think we have to bedirect, not pushy, not salesy,
but we have to be specificbecause, you know, if they can't
do what you're asking in likefive minutes, you know, what's
the chances that they're gonnaget distracted by something else
and not do it?
Like a hundred percent becauseall the time.
(10:28):
We're we're really, really busyright now.
And so I think that's wherehaving a system for staying in
touch with people is about kindof bite-sizing things so that
they're not so intimidating foranybody.
SPEAKER_00 (10:41):
Yeah, yeah.
I yeah, I I currently have aguilt in me because someone
asked me to do something andthen I got COVID and I forgot.
It never happened and it missedthe deadline.
But if it was like just like oneof those bite-sized favors, I
would have just done it thatsecond.
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
Yeah, and I think this is where, again, going back
to that invisible labor, um, youknow, this is one of the things
people are like, oh, let me do ahundred touch challenge or let
me do one email a week to yourone email a day to people to
build my network.
Well, if you send out a hundredemails for, you know, outreach
emails, you know you're gonnaget like 50 back kind of
(11:24):
quickly.
Do you have the time to respondto all the pings you sent?
Do you have time to pong?
Do you have time to follow upwith people so that you actually
kind of build that relationshipand do something with what the
conversation you started?
Most people don't have dedicatedtime to send emails and send
outreach and send cards, butthey also don't have dedicated
(11:45):
time to respond to these things.
The worst thing you want to dois like start a bunch of
conversations with people thatthen you get overwhelmed because
you didn't block the time torespond to the conversation
because then someone else islike, oh my God, they reached
out and started a conversationwith me and then they dropped it
and didn't go anywhere.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (12:01):
Yeah.
Um, okay, I have a lot ofquestions, but I want to ask
them organized.
Um, so what you cued, like youteed me up for one specifically,
though.
How do you create a system wherethey don't, where this doesn't
fall apart?
Like, are you time blocking?
Is it like the world's best CRMin the air table?
(12:25):
What is a good system for this?
SPEAKER_01 (12:27):
Really, I think that if you block an hour once a week
in my program, we call it theSacred Sales Hour.
If you block an hour once a weekand send five outreaches,
generally speak that varybetween past clients and present
clients.
Generally speaking, you're gonnahit your whole network in a
year, which is fine.
Because what is time, anyways,especially if you're staying top
(12:47):
of mind with reasonably frequentLinkedIn posting and
newsletters, it's not like theyhaven't seen you, you know.
So you don't need to like followup with people every, you know,
every quarter.
Cause generally speaking, you'reprobably in the orbit of a lot
of people, anyways.
People occasionally see yourstuff.
You're not, you know, completelyout of, you know, out of sight,
out of mind.
If you are out of side, out ofmind, I would address that.
(13:09):
I would make sure you are notthis shape.
I would not uh stay where peopleliterally don't see your name
except for the one email a yearyou get.
But this is where it's like,okay, you know, if you do five a
week, five touches a week, andyour network that you can stay
in touch with is like 150-ishpeople.
That's Dunbar's number.
You're gonna hit your wholenetwork in a year.
(13:29):
You're gonna expand yournetwork.
There are some people you wantto follow up with more
regularly, past clients,prospects, those should be on a
quarterly list.
But, you know, your bestreferral partners probably every
three to six months.
But I don't think people need asuper complicated CRM.
I'm much more concerned withsending five emails a week than
tracking who you sent them tobecause generally speaking,
(13:49):
you're gonna hit everyone thatmatters if you commit to five a
week, anyways.
SPEAKER_00 (13:53):
Yeah.
I did something like this littletwo Januaries ago.
I did like a 30-day sprint ofthis.
And um, I've talked about this athousand times.
So you've probably heard thisstory.
Um, but I was able to close94,000 within that 30-day
period.
(14:14):
And um I used Airtable to trackit and boomerang.
Those were my two best friends.
It was an air table boomerangcombo, and that's how I was able
to keep up with theconversations and make sure that
they didn't disappear.
SPEAKER_01 (14:31):
Yeah.
And I love I love that.
If you are needing to getclients in the door, a kind of
burst mode like what you'retalking about, hugely relevant,
hugely helpful, probably want tosystem for that.
But a lot of people are like,the tech is overwhelming.
They're not really, and I'mlike, I don't care how you send,
just you know, don't send likeif you if you're kind of in
maintenance mode with yourbusiness right now, just send
(14:52):
five emails a week and do it inone block a time and just come
back to that on a regular basis.
Then it's not too many emails,it's not too few emails.
You stay in the rhythm of it.
And if you don't love tech, youdon't need to love tech.
In order, your goal is just tostay in motion, stay in rhythm
and notice.
Have I been talking to just thesame people?
(15:12):
Have I done any asking lately?
It's more of like a notificationnoticing of the rhythms versus
the specificity of when you, Imean, I don't know about you,
but if someone's not in my salespipeline and I get a
notification like in my CRM totell them, tell them, tell me to
follow up with them, I justignore it.
Sales pipeline, you needreminders.
Yeah.
(15:32):
Track that stuff super carefullywith your sales pipeline, but
just in your regular network,every time I get like a
follow-up notification forsomeone, like, oh, you need to
follow up with them, I justsnooze and ignore it.
I'm like, I'll get to it at somepoint.
Oh, I'm a snoozer too.
Yeah.
So sales pipeline, follow uplike a hawk.
unknown (15:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
Your relationship pipeline, it's really just about
rhythms and it's about being inmotion and staying in the flow
of it versus the specificity of,oh, when did I last talk to this
person?
SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I guess my fear would be likehow do I know which people in my
network?
Like my network is big.
How do I specify like who it isthat makes sense to reach out
(16:24):
to?
Is there a specific list likepast clients you mentioned
before?
Um maybe people that you workedwith at a company before might
be part of it.
I don't know.
Tell me, tell me what are yourlists.
SPEAKER_01 (16:38):
So you have your past and present clients.
You have your prospects, thoseare on a list.
You have the people that referyou business and the people
where you've been on theirplatforms before and gotten you
business.
So, like between your past andpresent clients and the people
that regularly send youbusiness, you're, you know,
somewhere in the probably 40 to50 people list.
(16:59):
And then you're kind of lookingfor like, who are like them that
I can make relationships with?
If these people send mereferrals, who's someone similar
to them that alt myself send mereferrals?
And if I get a lot of, you know,love from this community, how
can I deepen relationships inthe communities I'm already in?
Right.
We're, you know, we're not justtrying to, we're really looking
(17:19):
for the people that, you know,have altered have complimentary
audiences, have proven that theyhave referred to us.
We want to like continue todeepen the relationship with
them instead of having to gosuper broad.
We're like, you know, I I reallyfeel especially, and you also
want to be on lookup for superconnectors.
I don't know if you've coveredthis with your your audience.
SPEAKER_00 (17:38):
I haven't, but please do because I love my I
love my superconnectors.
SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
There are people that are super, they're super
connectors and super sharers.
So the super sharers are theones that tend to consume and
share a lot of information.
So if you're trying to get your,they're the ones that, you know,
their audience expects maybe acouple links in a newsletter, or
they do a lot of cross-promotionand people really like what they
we they do.
Superconnectors are the onesthat are sort of like they know
(18:05):
everybody.
So, and they connect you toeverybody freely.
So you're probably a superconnector within my sphere.
I'm a bit of a super connector.
And so you want to get to knowthem because getting to know
them means that they're gonnaget to know a lot of people.
Um, like I have I have onebookkeeper who I refer, I think
I've referred like seven clientsto because of like how she does
(18:28):
her bookkeeping.
She loves Jessica.
She loves it.
And so, you know, if she'slistening to this, which she's
not, but um, you know, I shouldbe getting gifts and I should be
getting referrals back if I can.
And I should, you know, liketake care of the people that um
that send you business becausethey're going to there are some
of us in our profession, yourprofession, my profession.
(18:50):
Like our job is to get to knowpeople.
So get to know the people whosejob it is to get to know people.
SPEAKER_00 (18:56):
Yeah, that is that's perfection.
Um and you're right, my job isto know people at this point.
It wasn't at the beginning, butit is now.
SPEAKER_01 (19:07):
Yeah, and I think this it's it sounds
transactional.
And it sounds a little, oh,like, you know, I'm putting
people in tears and lists.
This is how networks operate,right?
There's always so we're reallyjust taking it from the abstract
to the intuitive into somethingthat can, like, you know, be
something that lives on acalendar, can be something that
(19:28):
lives in a spreadsheet.
And once people get in therhythm, so one of my clients,
she um at the beginning of theyear, she sent a Starbucks gift
card for coffee um to everyclient.
She works with inliteracy, soshe works with schools.
And so she couldn't necessarilydrop coffee off at everyone's
desk, although she did try.
Um, but she sent it a valianteffort.
(19:51):
Well, you know, some you know,the ones where it was in driving
distance, she totally boughtthem coffee.
And the ones that were out ofstate, she'd not bring them
coffee.
She got she got um two inquiriesfrom that.
Because it was past clients andit was, hey, here's the
beginning of school, you know,have a cup of coffee on me.
Here's the new year.
And people are like, they itwasn't about her at all.
(20:13):
It was only about them.
They were pleased, they reachedout and said, Oh, thank you so
much.
Oh, by the way, I've beenmeaning to talk to you.
Thank you for the re you know,the excuse to reach out.
SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
Yeah, I think that that's so you hit on a couple
things.
When I talk about my biz devsystems, I also get the feeling
that people think like it'smanipulative, it's
transactional, but it's reallynot.
It's just how I'm able to makerelationships at scale.
Like I even do some of thisstuff with my friends just to
(20:45):
make sure that I have touchpoints with like my friends that
have moved across the country orwhatever.
Without a system, even thoserelationships would eventually
fade.
SPEAKER_01 (20:56):
Yeah, and and this is about noticing.
Again, you know, not everyinvitation is going to be right
for for you, not every way, youknow, like some people are
really good with expanding theirnetwork through cool DMs and
some people aren't.
You you have, but it's like youhave to do, you have to meet new
people, you have to stay intouch with the people you are in
relationship with.
(21:17):
It's probably a good idea tothank them and be of service on
a, you know, in a wildlyunscalable way as you're
building your business.
And then you have to make asks,um, more asks than you think.
But again, they don't have to besalesy or pushy, but they do
have to invite people to take astepboard.
And by giving language to it,people can really start to see
(21:38):
oh, I can name a pattern and Ican do something about that
versus just like I need tonetwork more.
SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I love that you broke thisdown into like those seasons
because I've never thought aboutit that way.
So when I said, Well, I have alot of questions, one of those
questions was, what are someaction steps we can take in each
of those seasons that just likea listener could be like, okay,
(22:08):
I gotta do this when I'm in thatseason.
SPEAKER_01 (22:11):
Well, the expand season actually goes hand in
hand with the ask season becauseyou can ask your clients what
conferences they're going to,what communities they're a part
of, who else they follow, whoelse they read, which is an ask,
which helps you expand yournetwork.
So and an easy ask.
It's an easy ask, a thick ask.
It's an easy, you're not like,you know, the question is where
(22:32):
would I find more people likeyou?
And what communities are you in?
And then I would join thosecommunities and don't just like
join and then not, you know,meet people and DM people and be
part of the conversations.
And sure, you can't do that inlike 20 places.
So pick a season or pick acommunity, pick a network every
season, pick a new place tospend some time and get to know
(22:52):
some people.
And again, it sounds a littletransactional, but like rotate
it.
Don't just like be in onecommunity, join like one new
community a season and get toknow people, and you would be
surprised how quickly yournetwork expands.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
You are so that is the thing that I talk about the
most is those niche communitiesare the easiest way to meet the
right people because you canfind the ones that are
specifically like your idealdream clients and go hang out
there, make relationships there.
But um, in that 30-day sprint Iwas telling you about, that was
(23:27):
one of the things I did heavilyand I tracked like which
communities were building likestrong relationships.
And then I was able to just cutthe ones that didn't and go more
in on those.
And then I, you know, would trya new one maybe the next
quarter.
SPEAKER_01 (23:42):
Yeah.
It's like planting seeds.
You're like, all right, I'mplanting a garden.
If I plant these seasons overhere, that might not work.
If I plant these seeds overhere, it might bloom into like
an amazing plant.
And then I'm gonna like doubledown over there.
Yeah.
If you're deepeningrelationships, just really think
about different ways to deepenrelationships besides calls.
(24:02):
So again, this could be makingconnections for people.
I always like the double opt-inconnection though, like ask both
parties if they want to beconnected.
Um, send resources that you knowwould be interested, interesting
to them.
Could be your resource, could betheir resource, like someone
else's resource.
Like, if I, you know, ourpodcast is gonna go out and I'm
(24:22):
gonna send it a bunch of peopleand I'm gonna be like, hey, like
I recorded this and I had you onmy mind when I was doing it
because you're in a season ofinviting.
Here's some big ideas.
Um, and then curate your ownevents, not maybe online or
things like that, but like haveyour own, have something to
invite people to to come learnmore.
Huge.
It's it's huge.
Like, you know, let people knowyou enough.
(24:45):
And then inviting again, we'vetalked about this a little bit,
but um, you know, past clients,invite them to a conversation
about what's next.
Um, one of my someone I I followonline said, um, just because
they might not work next withyou, if you are the one that
facilitates them to their goals,regardless of who it's with,
they're gonna remember that.
(25:06):
So, you know, you should alwaysknow what their 2026 projects
are and how can you be helpfulin getting them to their goals,
regardless of whether that'sworking with you or not.
Um, but again, the ask can besmall, they should be specific,
and they should be somethingthat people can say yes to or no
to without like a ton ofthinking about it.
(25:27):
But, you know, people say, Oh,would you like to do this
collaboration?
I'm like, Yes, I would, becauseI want to get in front of your
audience, you want to get infront of my audience.
Thank you for taking the time toask, right?
It's the people that ask forwhat they're looking for at the
right size of the relationshiptrust level, they'll they'll get
(25:48):
what they want.
SPEAKER_00 (25:50):
Yeah, okay.
I loved absolutely everythingyou said in this episode.
I am probably going to also havethis episode in the tiny
marketing club as like bonusmaterial in the biz dev section.
It's that good.
Like the thing that really stuckout to me is like people have a
(26:14):
hard time understanding thatwhen you're doing that, that
give, when you're when you're sohere, let me backwards.
A couple of weeks ago, I had apodcast episode where I was
talking about LinkedInprospecting.
And I talked about this warmingup period and problem
exploration.
(26:36):
And the thing that really pissedpeople off, honestly, was like
that they thought it would be apitch when the problem
exploration is really you'rediscovering what they have next
or what challenge is happening.
So you can give them a resourceand build trust with them,
whether that's you or someoneelse.
Like that resource could beintroducing them to someone
(26:59):
else.
It could be an asset thatbelongs to someone else.
It's not necessarily you.
And that doesn't mean that youwon't turn into their contractor
or consultant one day, but todayisn't the day they need you.
And I would pull people off.
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
Well, I will say um on LinkedIn, and this is just my
perspective.
If you ask me a hard question inthe LinkedIn DMs, I will ignore
you because I'm too I'm like,someone asked me a question.
She's like, if you could snapyour fingers and change one
thing about your mindset, whatwould you change?
And I'm like, I don't know.
This is a hard question.
SPEAKER_00 (27:34):
I would delete that.
I would delete that.
No, this would be like after youhave built a relationship with
them, that's when you start withthe problem exploration
conversations.
SPEAKER_01 (27:46):
Yeah, but I I'm like, I I'm like, please don't
make me think in my yeah, youknow, in my DMs.
SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
I've had that question too.
Someone has asked me that.
SPEAKER_01 (27:55):
Yeah, and I think like if you go in with the
intention of being salesy,people people know it.
But if you approach all yourinteractions with humanness, um,
and again, move at the speed oftrust, you know, you'll be fine.
Yeah, I love that phrase.
SPEAKER_00 (28:14):
I should name this episode that.
Uh thank you so much for joiningme.
Can you tell us one about yourbook and two about your program?
SPEAKER_01 (28:25):
So the book is called Leaving the Casino, Stop
Betting on Tactics and StartBuilding a Business That Works.
It's available on my site.
Basically, all the advice we'regiven as in the entrepreneurial
casino is designed for one typeof business.
And that might not be thebusiness you want to run.
So, how do we step away from theloud, shiny, flashy tactics and
(28:46):
start building a business thatworks for us?
So it's very practical,shockingly practical guide to
some of the business decisionsthat you would make.
And then the um program in mymembership, the program, um, the
sales program we talked aboutwas called relationship rhythms.
And we execute on that everyweek in my membership called the
(29:06):
Deeper Foundations membership.
We have sales sacred hour once aweek.
SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
Nice.
Okay.
I will have links.
I was just looking over at yourform to see if I have them
already.
I have deeperfoundations.com.
So that is for your program?
SPEAKER_01 (29:25):
That's for that's for kind of like the one stop
shop for it all.
SPEAKER_00 (29:28):
Okay.
And then we have predictablerevenue roadmap.com.
That is about that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:34):
Yeah, the predictable revenue roadmap is
the kind of five steps topredictable revenue.
One of those steps is routineoutreach.
But if you want to know theother four things that I see are
problematic keeping people fromum predictable revenue months,
um, that's in the roadmap.
SPEAKER_00 (29:52):
Awesome.
This was such a goodconversation.
Thank you so much.
She's also on LinkedIn.
I have that here.
So I will have all of Theselinks in the show notes.
And I hope we can continue thisrelationship.
Speaking of relationshiprhythms, because I just think
you're brilliant and our uhideas align.
(30:15):
You love all things tinymarketing.
Head down to the show notes pageand sign up for the wait list to
join the tiny marketing clubwhere you get to work one-on-one
with me with trainings,feedback, and pop up coaching
that will help you scale yourmarketing as a B2B service
(30:36):
business.
So I'll see you over in theclub.
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