November 16, 2025 • 40 mins
We map the new course landscape and show how trust, focus, and thoughtful support turn a crowded niche into an advantage. From onboarding that builds safety to AI-driven upsells, we share practical ways to raise completion and profit without bloat.
• market shift post‑2020 and AI making course creation easier
• trust recession, proof of expertise, and honest limits
• picking support structures that match ideal clients
• designing for focus with missions, tracks, and tools
• engagement loops, reactivation prompts, and peer recognition
• built‑in upsells, AI agents, and shareable wins
• common mistakes: non‑actionable content and weak onboarding
• mini courses for quick wins vs signature transformations
• long game mindset and stair‑step offers before self‑paced
• how to work with Jasmine and where to find her
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Jasmine Jonte helps experts turn braindumps into world-class programs! Her Done-For-You Course Creation agency takes care of everything - from the big picture promise down to the last worksheet download. They're on a mission to make learning simple and fun for 10 Million students while saving 100+ hours for every course creator they partner with!
Coupling her teaching experience with business savvy and management skills, you’ll want her to do the heavy lifting when building or upgrading your online programs!
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasminejonte/
Website: Cre8tion.co
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@JasmineJonteCRE8TION
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:50):
Podcast that helps B2B service businesses do more
with less.
Learn lean, actionable, organicmarketing strategies you can
implement today.
No fluff, just powerful growthtactics at work.
Ready to scale smarter?
Hit that subscribe button andstart growing your business with
tiny marketing.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
Hello, audience.
I am nice to see you.
Uh my name's Jasmine Jonte.
I a have a done for you coursecreation agency.
So we work with experts,authors, speakers, coaches,
consultants, entrepreneurs, andwe pull the wisdom out of their
brain and put it intoworld-class programs.
(01:31):
Um and that can look like a lotof different things, but that's
who that's who I am.
That's what I do.
And at the heart of everythingis um teaching, background and
teaching, and also just creatingamazing experiences for clients
and for people.
All about the wow factor.
SPEAKER_02 (01:50):
You know?
Yeah.
And that's so important rightnow in particular.
So before I cue up my firstquestion, because I always do
that, I'm like, okay, I have athousand questions, but I didn't
even tell them what the topic isyet.
So we're talking today about howto become the go-to course
creator in your specific niche.
(02:10):
Before we get into that though,can you tell me like what is
changing right now?
Because I know that there's ashift in this course creator
world.
So what did it look like before?
And what does it look like in2026?
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
Hmm, I don't know when before is.
Let's just say before 2020.
So okay, let's go there.
So before 2020, um it was a lotmore challenging to create
programs.
There was no chat GPT.
You had to hit every singlekeystroke of every single
(02:48):
thumbnail uh copy piece.
And like it was just a lot morechallenging and less people
tried because of that.
Yeah.
Um, and then we entered 2020,people had more time, people
were at home.
And so like everyone had topivot online.
(03:08):
Um, even like if you look at,you know, Tony Robbins, a guy
who'd been doing in-personevents only forever, pivoted
online and had like 10x or morethe reach and impact that he did
just when he was doing hisin-person training.
So everyone went online and nowsuddenly everyone has a course.
Everyone's like, oh my gosh,it's so saturated in my niche.
(03:31):
Um, and then recently in thepast like 18 months, two years,
then ChatGPT came along.
So it got even easier to developan amaz a program.
And um what that means is nowthere's a lot of noise, and
there's a lot of people outthere who have not so great
training programs.
Um, and so we're on a mission tocombat that, right?
SPEAKER_02 (03:56):
Yeah.
I'm excited to hear like howyou're doing that because yes, a
lot more people are trying tobuild courses.
And a lot there's also like thetrust factor that so many people
put out programs in 2020 whoweren't qualified to do it.
(04:16):
And then we're like, then wepulled back a lot more than we
needed to because we were like,can we trust anybody?
Can we trust anybody?
So there's that trust recession.
But let's let's talk about that.
How do you how do you build thattrust with your audience so
(04:38):
they'd feel comfortable withyou?
And is it all digital assets ordo you mix and match?
SPEAKER_00 (04:47):
Well, if we think about building trust with our
audience, I think the easiestthing to or the easiest question
to ask to reflect on that is whoare the people that you trust on
the internet and why?
Right.
Um and I think part of that isshowcasing your expertise that
you truly are an expert.
(05:09):
Because like you said, there's alot of people out there who are
unqualified who have no businessbuilding the program that
they're building and trying tosell and market the program
they're trying to sell andmarket.
Um, and then on the flip side,there's experts out there who
have every right in the world tobe teaching what they know
online and yet they haveimposter syndrome.
Yeah.
So it's so many.
(05:31):
So it's really about like havingan honest moment with yourself
and saying, like, am I really anexpert in this?
Um, and kind of removing theemotion from it, looking at the
the success stories and theclient results that you have,
and then from that place,sharing that online.
So you're showcasing yourexpertise so the audience trusts
it.
(05:52):
Um, you know, I think that'sthat's huge.
And another element of uh ofhaving your audience trust you
is just being real and honestwith them.
Like, just like if you wereserving someone in like a
professional services capacityor um an agency capacity or
whatever it is, you wouldn'tsell them something that you
couldn't deliver on.
(06:13):
So be honest with your audienceof like if you if there is
something that is the limit orthe boundary of what you can
support them with, then like sayit.
Like, don't be afraid to say it.
SPEAKER_02 (06:25):
And it's honestly like a relief to hear someone
say, like, that's not my skillset, like and point to a
different direction, becausethen you know what they are
sharing.
They actually do know if they'recomfortable talking about what
they don't.
(06:46):
So we have the trust factor, andthen what about because you
mentioned AI, the digital versusin like the mix of digital
in-person, one-to-one contact.
How do we determine that?
SPEAKER_00 (07:05):
Uh yeah, there's a lot of questions that you gotta
ask to figure out how much uh Icall them like support
structures you want to haveinside of the program that
you're offering.
There are in-person structsupport structures and there are
uh virtual support structures.
There is one-on-one, there isgroup, there is peer support.
(07:25):
Like it can look like a lot ofdifferent things, and you have
to consider what's the resultthat you're trying to get people
or you're trying to help peopleachieve inside of your program.
And what's that ideal client?
I mean, it's so simple, it's sobasic.
But um, I remember like a coupleyears ago, I was trying to do
this retreat offer because itsounded really fun to me and it
(07:46):
sounded sexy.
Like I called it the course in aweek retreat.
And wouldn't it be amazing ifyou could come to Phoenix,
Arizona?
We'll put you up in a beautifulAirbnb, like so aesthetic, and
we get your course done in aweek.
And no one freaking bought it.
And I was like, what do youmean?
Like this support structure isamazing.
And I was right off vacation.
Vacation, come on, we're gonnahave like the whole thing, the
(08:09):
catered meals, and like I reallylike made it exclusive in Lux
and all the things, and it waslike a reasonable price point
because I was betaing it.
So I was like, Yeah, even if Idon't like make a ton of profit
on this, like I just want toprove it out.
No one bought, no one bought,and it was because I picked the
support structure that I wantedas at the time, like a
(08:30):
30-year-old, you know, woman,double income, no kids,
whatever.
And most of my ideal clientshave kids in, you know, who are
like in elementary and middleschool.
And so hard.
And they were like, I this isnot the support structure I
need, right?
(08:50):
And so I think that it it oftencomes down to like, what is your
ideal client want?
Because everyone just goesusually to the if they're having
like some kind of group program,they'll say, like, we're gonna
do a call once a week.
Well, does your ideal clientwant to show up to a call once a
week?
SPEAKER_02 (09:04):
Oh my gosh, let me raise my hand right now because
I do not for accoaching any dayof the week over in like having
to be live on something.
SPEAKER_00 (09:18):
Uh-huh.
100%.
And like there's other peoplewho they love, like the weekly,
it's gonna make me show up.
I get to put it on my calendar.
Like, there are avatars thatreally enjoy that and they like
that kind of structure androutine.
And so at the end of the day,it's like, what does your client
want?
And also, like, what are youwilling to do?
(09:39):
You know, uh, especially likewith the async work, you gotta
have boundaries on it by tellingyour clients, like, I'm gonna
get back to you within 24, 48,however many business hours,
right?
So letting them know what theycan expect from you so you're
not hog tied to Slack.
Um, but it's really, I think itreally comes down to like asking
them what they want and what doyou think they need to get the
(10:01):
result.
SPEAKER_02 (10:02):
Yeah, that is such a great point.
Like, survey the people who areinterested in your program and
find out what structure they'dlike.
Because I mean, to your point, Iwould love to go to a retreat.
I've gone to one the entire timeI've owned my business, and it
was so difficult because I wascoordinating my kids stuff at
(10:23):
the same time.
I was like, I can't do it.
As much as as fun as it is, Ican't do it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Yeah.
It's just a it's just you gottaknow what they need and what
they want and what they whatthey can do.
SPEAKER_02 (10:35):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
So let's talk about inside ofthe program.
(11:42):
How does the design of theprogram impact the one, the
success of the students, butalso the profitability.
SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
Yeah.
So in terms of the success ofthe students, this happens a
lot, is people think more ismore.
And that is not that could notbe further from the truth in the
land of TikTok and Instagramreels.
Uh people don't people don'twant to know everything they
(12:13):
want to know, the everything youknow.
They just want to know what arethe simple strategic things I
need to do in what order to getsaid result.
They want to do as little aspossible.
SPEAKER_02 (12:24):
That is absolutely true.
And I experienced it myself.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
Yeah.
So I think it's like that that'sreally the one of the benefits
of program design and like thisskill of learning, like learning
experience design, curriculumdesign, it is actually a skill.
Just like copy is a skill andsales is a skill and podcast
editing is a skill.
Like it's a skill, and a lot ofpeople don't realize that.
(12:50):
Um, but when you know thatskill, you know how to scaffold
students from where they areright now to where they want to
go in the easiest, mosteffective route possible.
Um yeah, so more is not more,less is more.
Make it as simple and easy aspossible.
Let's pause right there becauseI have to tell you a story.
SPEAKER_02 (13:10):
Oh, yeah, bring it on.
When I started betaing tinymarketing club, I put all of the
content they would need insideof it.
And I started it off with astrategic spark.
So I'd sit down with themone-on-one and I would tell them
exactly what they needed to do,but they had access to
everything.
It they raised their hand, atleast.
(13:33):
They told me, they were like,I'm distracted because I know
what I'm supposed to do.
It's right here on this sheet.
But then I'm like, well, thatlooks cool, and that looks cool,
and that looks cool.
So they would bounce around andthey couldn't complete anything.
And that's when I redesignedeverything.
So they're doing a mission infour weeks.
This is what you need toaccomplish, and these are the
(13:54):
only things that you need tolook at.
And then I hide everything else.
SPEAKER_00 (13:59):
Powerful blood they told me though.
Yeah, yeah.
It's like you you created aforcing function for focus.
SPEAKER_02 (14:06):
Yeah, yes, exactly.
I was attracting a lot of peoplewho have ADHD and creating those
containers in a way where youhad no choice but to focus on
that one thing made it a loteasier for them.
SPEAKER_00 (14:19):
Yeah.
And I I think that's somethingthat most people in most niches
uh need to consider is how do Ihelp my students focus on the 20
that creates the 80% of results.
And there are program designways to do that.
Like you said, is like you hitall the other content and they
only got access to a certainamount of time.
(14:41):
You can also do choose your ownadventure uh programs where it's
like there's a quiz or there'ssomething, there's an AI agent
or something at the beginningthat kind of puts them in like a
track.
If you I like that idea.
And then so even though you canhave people who come in um with
different challenges ordifferent unique uh things about
(15:02):
them, you can kind ofpersonalize it.
And then they feel like, oh,like this is this is just for
me, but without it needing to bea one-on-one consultation call,
right?
Yeah, that's yeah, superbrilliant.
And maybe I'll I'll take thatfor for later.
Take it, take it.
Um, so yeah, there's programdesign ways to create focus.
(15:23):
And then the other thing is likejust reminding your students,
like so many people forget justbecause they bought something,
just because they bought yourprogram doesn't mean they're
gonna engage with it.
You know, yeah, like they buy itand they log in, but are you
prompting them to log back in?
Like, are you sending themengagement emails?
Oh, could you run an ad just toyour client list to remind them
(15:46):
to do their homework that week?
I mean, like, cheapest ad ever,you know what I'm saying?
But like it increases theresults that people get and it
shows that you really care.
So really smart.
I never would have thought ofthat.
Yeah.
It's like you know, but you knowexactly which email, you know?
And you can do fun things like Isee you on Instagram.
(16:07):
Yes, it's your coach calling,and I see you on Instagram, and
you need to stop the scrollbecause remember, this week is
about whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (16:14):
Oh my god.
I love that.
That is a cute and brilliantidea.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
Yeah.
So remember, like they're gonnaget they're gonna get unfocused,
they're gonna be distracted.
How can you pull their attentionback to where you want it by
interrupting their their thoughtpatterns wherever they are,
whether that's email or textmessage campaigns or push
notifications or ads.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:40):
So smart.
I just started within the lastcouple of months putting
together workflows because theywere getting weekly emails on
what to do, but now I haveworkflows where like it
automatically DMs them like, areyou are you working on this
right now?
Ping me when you're ready totalk about it.
Which platform are you in?
SPEAKER_00 (17:00):
Heartbeat.
Okay.
I don't know heartbeat, but uh,I don't know well, I should say.
I know of it.
We haven't built on there yet.
Um, but I love things like that,like bulk actions or um, and
also on the flip side, right?
Not just like connecting withthem when they haven't logged in
for seven days and that's theworkflow trigger.
But when they completesomething, having a DM that
(17:22):
says, like, congratulations, youjust unlocked this thing that
you didn't know you were gonnaget.
Or like giving, oh my gosh, thiswas this is crazy for course
completion, is especially if youhave like a cohort or if you
have a tight kind of knitcommunity, you can give them
shout outs in the community forcompleting the module of the
week because you can see theircompletion.
(17:43):
Oh, yeah, that's a good idea.
So it's like small littletouches like that can go a long
way.
Positive peer pressure.
SPEAKER_02 (17:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so those are some designelements that can make sure that
your your clients are successfulin there.
Now, what design elements wouldlead to higher profitability?
SPEAKER_00 (18:07):
Really good question.
Um, so we call them moneymakers.
And I like the name already.
We call them moneymakers.
The key here is to decide whatyou want to upsell.
Um, if we think about you know,the three ways to grow a
(18:27):
business, there's more clients,there's increasing the average
transaction value, and there'sincreasing referrals or
retention.
So when we think about what arewe upselling, um, that's one way
to increase like the lifetimevalue of a client.
So they didn't just buy yourmini course, but they also
bought your signature course, orthey also opted in for coaching.
(18:50):
And you can build those into aprogram in a lot of different
ways.
You can literally talk aboutthem in your videos, you can add
them to workbooks, you can addthem to portal copy, you can add
them to sidebar buttons.
Like there's a lot of ways youcan talk about your other offers
naturally inside of yourprograms from a place of not
like go buy my more, go buy moreshit now.
(19:13):
It's not like that, but it'slike, yeah, you know, especially
like, oh, I love telling clientstories.
So for example, I have a minicourse and Sarah, you're my mini
course.
Okay.
And, but you also bought myone-on-one coaching.
And so in the mini course, Itell your story and I'm like, oh
my gosh, when Sarah, she shewent through this module and it
(19:35):
completely shifted the way shedid X, Y, Z.
I'm so like, we're so happy forher.
And it shifted so much for her.
She actually joined ourone-on-one coaching and she got
Y result too.
Isn't that crazy?
And then you just kind of moveinto what's next.
So you're like naturally openingloops and planting seeds
throughout the whole journeywith the assumption that they're
joining the next thing that youhave available.
(19:58):
Oh, that's really smart.
SPEAKER_02 (19:59):
Yeah.
I do that in like workshopswhere people aren't part of my
program yet.
Offer nodding, talking aboutlike if one of my clients is
also at that workshop bringingit up, but I haven't thought to
do it that way.
That's really smart.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
Um you can so you can do that, right?
Like you can embed it intovideos, into workbooks, into
portal, into all of that, thatgood stuff.
Um, but you can also do thingsthat support um the other ways
to grow a business.
So that's like LTV.
(20:37):
But can you do things likeadding a really easy Instagram
shareable celebration so thatnow they're posting your stuff
to the internet about yourprogram, which increases
referrals.
Like Mar, there's like a wholeton of things you can do, but it
all is about strategy.
It's like, what are youupselling?
(20:58):
When in the program are youtalking about it?
And how is it being delivered?
Um, so you gotta look at it fromthe it's hard to do this
retroactively.
You kind of have to do it whenyou build the program.
SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
Yeah, definitely.
For most of those for sure.
I was just thinking about how itwould work with your the tracks
that you were talking aboutearlier.
Like if they were to take a quizto determine what track they
were in, um, you would naturallyknow what track would make the
most sense for that person next.
So you can have an upsell, atleast in heartbeat, this is a
(21:30):
possibility where it pops up forthat specific group, showing
them like this is what your nextlogical track would be.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Yeah, there's um, so I work a lot in circle and I
find this works the best there.
But same vibes is we have AIagents that help support
students going through aparticular program.
And that agent is trained on ourupsells.
So when a client in the with theagent says a certain thing, that
the agent will respond with,that's amazing, like answers
(22:02):
question.
Have you considered joining thecertification program?
So, like starting to leveragethings like AI agents, which
again can be natural upsellvehicles, and that's independent
of the course content.
So, like, think about one of ourclients, they've had a this
business for 15 years and theyhave, I don't know, 10 or 15
(22:23):
offers that all sell like everymonth.
And so we're not gonna redo someof those offers.
We're gonna keep the courses asthey are, but we're adding AI
agents that are now trading theupsell.
So even if in the program itselfthere's no upsells included, the
AI agent is starting to weavethat into the the client
journey.
So smart.
SPEAKER_02 (22:44):
So smart.
Do you know Brie Lever?
Yeah, okay.
I was gonna say you guys need totalk because she knows the
community side, you do thecourse creator side.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:57):
I'm glad you know each other.
She's awesome.
She's awesome.
Yeah, I think she's very likeheavy into the community.
We do a little community stuff,uh, but we're not like we
definitely don't do management.
Like, I definitely don't do anymore like compliment each other,
yeah.
It's more like offer strategyand how that weaves into
(23:17):
community and stuff and howprogramming works with it, but
yeah, no.
SPEAKER_02 (23:20):
Management, stay out of that.
I don't blame you.
Bree has a gift.
Yeah, absolutely.
So when people are building outtheir courses, what do you see
as the most common mistakes?
You come in and you're like, ohno.
SPEAKER_00 (23:42):
Oh yes.
The oh no factor happens quite abit when we're doing our audits.
Um one thing is they don't maketheir program actionable.
So they're just like sharingcontent, but they're not so
there's no outcome.
Yeah, they're and everything wedo with program design is all
reverse engineered.
(24:03):
So, like if you take it on thehighest level, what's the
result?
What's the transformation A to Bthat they get from this course?
Okay, now what are themilestones, the milestone
results they should hit alongthe way?
That's like your module levelresults.
And then you break down and youhave a lesson level result.
What are the lesson levelresults that when they do these
things, it really relates to themodule levels and then the
(24:24):
modules relate to the bit,right?
Yeah.
Most people are just like, yeah,I think I should just kind of
spitball and share, share ideasand content, but they're not
telling them what to do.
And then kind of attached tothat is they're not giving them
resources to make it easy to do.
Yeah.
So, you know, especially in theworld of AI, like, come on now.
(24:45):
Like, we got AI coach clones, wegot custom GPTs, we got
dashboards, we got vibe coding.
Like, there are so many thingsyou can do to make it easy as
pie to get results.
And um it's just, I don't Idon't really have like a lot of
um what's the word I'm lookingfor?
Not empathy.
I just think it kind of comesacross as lazy at this point if
(25:07):
you're not providing things likethat because it's easier to do.
SPEAKER_02 (25:11):
It's easy to do, and it's so helpful.
Like the favorite, my favoriteprogram that I've been in has
been it's basically what youwere talking about, where like
there's they have checked likecustom GPTs for all of the
things that I need to do on aregular basis with them that
makes it so much easier.
(25:32):
And then I have async coachingwith them.
So it's like the best of bothworlds, the easiest way to win.
SPEAKER_00 (25:40):
Yeah, totally.
And that's how we designed ourlike I have a program, and
that's how we designed it, likefor that reason.
Like everything has its ownlittle custom GPT that's trained
on the 120 courses that we'vebuilt, right?
And like what we know works.
And uh, you know, you got totrain your people that just
cause, and I'm sure you withwith the the agents and things
that you're using inside of thatprogram, it doesn't give you
(26:02):
perfect first draft, but no,it's better than a blank page.
SPEAKER_02 (26:07):
Yeah, yeah.
And there's a lot of onboardingquestions that get you like 99%
of the way to a good firstdraft.
Yeah, totally.
Okay, I love that.
And is there anything else thatyou're seeing in programs that
are like, why are you why?
Why?
(26:27):
Why are we doing this?
Um oh gosh, can we talk aboutonboarding?
That is the first thing thatcame into my mind because if you
have bad onboarding, which Ihave had before, I'm instantly
out.
I'm like, actually, I regretthis decision.
Yes, let's talk about it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:45):
Oh yeah, oh gosh.
Yeah, I think that when you theeasiest way to check if your
onboarding is decent is thinkabout everything that you put on
the sales page and do they knowwhere to find everything that
you put on the sales page withintheir first uh email touch point
(27:08):
and their first video touchpoint.
Like such a good point.
It's really not hard.
And the thing is, if you don'tgive them their bonuses right
away, that's fine.
Like there are plenty ofprograms I have built that they
have to reach a certainmilestone to activate a bonus
because up until that point,like to our point earlier, it's
a distraction.
(27:30):
So we're forcing focus by notgiving them access to all the
content, which is fine, but tellthem when they will get access
to it.
So it's not a question I'llreply, is like, where are you?
Yes, yes, or or you're not, andyou're just getting people who
are asking for a refund or justpiecing out and never logging in
again.
Yeah.
(27:50):
So so that's a big piece.
And then the other thing toconsider about upsells or I'm
sorry, onboarding is are youtrying to upsell them from the
jump?
Because I have seen thisunfortunately.
And people it's like, especiallyif it's like a lower ticket
membership or like a lowerticket masterclass or something,
and someone paid, I don't know,50 bucks for it, in the first
(28:14):
email, they're talking abouttheir signature course.
Yeah, coaching.
SPEAKER_02 (28:19):
Or even on the thank you page.
Oh my gosh, on the thank youpage.
SPEAKER_00 (28:23):
And it is my goodness, like the only thing
you want them to feel in thevery beginning is like your
excitement for them and yourcongratulation.
Like they they want to feelcongratulated and celebrated and
safe.
Like they found a person who'sgot me and my problem is gonna
be solved.
Not I just got duped by someonewho wants more of my money.
(28:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:48):
The immediate upsell on the next page and then in the
email, and then the series ofemails is too much because no
one even got a win in that shortof a period of time.
SPEAKER_03 (29:00):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
Yeah, totally.
So onboarding.
And I would say, like, if youare listening to this and you
don't have a course, go look atyour services onboarding too,
because you might have that sameproblem.
We help people sometimes withtheir like client success
journey.
And what does that look likeinside of a service-based
business?
Oftentimes there's a curriculumconnected to that as well.
(29:23):
But it's like even servicesbusinesses.
I feel like most people do apoor job with their onboarding.
SPEAKER_02 (29:30):
Yeah.
I worked with someone who hadthe most amazing onboarding that
I started referring her toeveryone just because I loved
her onboarding.
I'm like, can't go wrong.
What did she do that was soamazing?
Well, so she was a web designer,but from the very beginning, I
(29:52):
was able to one look at theproposal.
She used Ubsado for this, butthe proposal to contract to pay
right away.
And then I automatically got anemail telling me everything I
should expect with like anonboarding um like milestones
that I need to go through inorder to be ready for that
(30:12):
project.
And I was like, that's so smart.
I'm stealing all of this.
SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
Yep.
I the visual, so we talk aboutframeworks a lot, is like it's
the visual for your predictable,repeatable process to
transformation inside ofcourses, right?
It's like, what's your method ina growth?
Yeah.
And I am a firm believer thatevery service-based business
should also have that for theirclients.
(30:39):
So they know here's the phasesthat you're gonna go through.
Here's the touch points at eachof these phases, here's what we
need from you.
And um, yeah, same thing is likepeople will often say, Hey, can
we just use your onboarding?
Can we just do what you did formy onboarding?
And I literally think that's thelinchpin is like this visual
that people it just grounds theminto again, what's happening and
(31:00):
when and what do they need todo?
SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
Yeah, that just remind me.
I worked with a different webcompany.
This was for myself this time,the other person I hired for
someone else.
But they had during theironboarding, they had like every
milestone I had to hit before weworked together, but also like I
it was on my calendar.
Like, I need to turn in my copyby this date.
And if we don't, this we'll haveto move it back two weeks.
(31:26):
So I had like a clearunderstanding of everything I
had to do to be able to keep myday.
SPEAKER_00 (31:33):
Yeah.
Really smart.
Put it on the calendar.
We with a lot of our done withyou clients, we'll say that too.
We'll be like, okay, so we needyour outline by this day.
When are you gonna do it?
Like, pull up your calendarright now.
Show me where it's time blocked.
Do you have?
X amount of hours time blocked.
Okay.
Now put in your calendar whenyou're going to send it to me.
Because they just need the handholding sometimes.
(31:54):
We're all have a million thingsgoing on and we need some
direction.
SPEAKER_02 (31:59):
And it's so easy to forget when you're in like
deliverability wasteland andyou're like, oh my God, I owe
Jasmine my curriculum tomorrow.
Yep.
Been there.
How important do you thinkcommunity is when it comes to
the course itself?
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
I think it depends again on ideal client and the
result.
So when I when we do like minicourses, our goal with a mini
course is for someone to be ableto log in, take it one time in
like under an hour, log out, andnever have to log in again.
Like it's a specific, tangibleresult that they should be able
to get after watching one timethrough the program.
(32:44):
That's my goal with a minicourse.
Okay.
With a signature course, that'ssomething that takes more time.
There might be feedback loops inthere.
It's inherently longer.
So if we think about podcasting,a mini course is how to record
your first episode.
A signature course is how tolaunch your podcast in the top
50 of your category.
(33:06):
So you can see the difference intransformation there.
With the second one, I thinkcommunity is usually important.
This is the caveat on the idealclient.
Some clients don't really wantto be in a community related to
your stuff, but they do want theasync support.
Um but I'd say I don't want togive it a sp like a specific
(33:28):
number, um, but most can benefitfrom having some kind of
community aspect, whether that'severgreen or cohort-based.
That's good to know.
SPEAKER_02 (33:43):
Okay.
So when you're talking minicourse, it's more of like you
want to complete something inless than an hour.
This is the thing.
And when you're talking like asignature program, it's a
transformation.
It's like a loftier goal thatyou have to that you're working
(34:03):
through.
Yes.
Okay.
This was incredibly helpful.
Is there anything else that youwant the audience to know?
SPEAKER_00 (34:13):
I would just say that the course creator journey
requires commitment.
Um, it's rare that I have aclient come in and launch a
program for the first time andhit the moon that they want to
hit.
So it is something that um it'sa long game.
(34:37):
And if you hold the vision andkeep the vision and just don't
give up, it will happen.
Um and that not giving up, thatresilience piece, is exactly
what will keep you successful asyou continue on in this world of
(34:57):
more and more content creatorscoming on the scene.
So yeah, resilience.
Stick with it.
SPEAKER_02 (35:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Earlier before we hit record,and I was talking about the
consulting call I was on, theywere talking about selling
passive products.
SPEAKER_00 (35:16):
Just knew I was gonna see an eye roll from there
is nothing passive about this.
No, everyone said, like, I'm sotired of these people on the
internet saying, like, oh, oh,you can make passive income with
a course.
Like, there are there is activemarketing activity happening in
order to create passive income.
Whether that active marketingactivity is you paying someone
(35:38):
to run and manage your adsaccount or doing it yourself, or
there is some activityhappening.
It doesn't necessarily happen toneed to happen by you, but to
get from not doing, you know,just barely getting your course
out there to then having a teamthat runs the whole business for
you so that you don't have to beactive, that is a huge, huge
(36:02):
journey.
There are many, many steps onthat journey.
So uh yeah, pause before youlisten to the person who's like,
you can sit on a beach and drinkspicy margaritas and hear your
PayPal ding.
Like it doesn't quite happenlike that.
No, it doesn't.
SPEAKER_02 (36:18):
I've been making courses since like 2015, and
never once was I was thathappening.
SPEAKER_00 (36:28):
Yes.
And here's the thing is some ofthose people saying that had
some huge frickin' audience, andthen they started to do that.
SPEAKER_02 (36:36):
That I think is the biggest like problem that people
people think that it's easy, butyou need a massive audience when
you're selling especially alow-ticket product.
SPEAKER_00 (36:51):
Yeah, and you have to it's a personal brand play a
lot of the time.
You know, yeah, you need massiveaudience trust and you have so
much trust built.
SPEAKER_02 (37:00):
It takes a lot of work to get there.
When I have people joining,because the people that come to
the tiny marketing club, they'remainly doing services.
They're solo consultants doingservices.
So when they come and they talkto me about like possibly
wanting to move into a course, Iwas like, slow your roll.
We're not there yet.
(37:20):
You need to be at a point whereyou're so in demand that you're
you can't take on anymore.
And then we can talk aboutsomething like that.
SPEAKER_00 (37:28):
And and here's the thing is normally you start with
your one-on-one and then youmove to like a group coaching or
group consulting containerbefore you move into the
self-paced.
Like people skip that step.
They go straight from I want togo one-on-one to having a
self-paced course.
If you have the money from yourone-on-one to then fund the
marketing and like the ads andthe development, you need a lot
(37:49):
of ads to make that work.
Yeah, like it can totally work.
If you're like, I'm thinking ofas like some lawyer clients or
some dental clients, like reallyum high income earning services,
like that's a possibility.
But if you're a chiropractor orsomething, like who's who
doesn't yield that same hourlyrate, it's you you there you
have to have this kind of middlegroup step to get some leverage
(38:12):
on your time before then goingself-paced.
SPEAKER_02 (38:15):
Yeah, that's a good point too, because you're in
that middle step, you'relearning how to sell at scale,
but on a mini version of it.
So it's just like a baby stepup.
SPEAKER_00 (38:28):
Yeah.
And you command a higher pricepoint than just like a
self-paced course because theyget access to you.
So yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_02 (38:34):
Yes.
You might end up just likingthat.
Who knows?
Who knows?
Um, how can people work with youand find you online?
SPEAKER_00 (38:44):
Yeah, so you can find us uh at the website.
It's www.creation.
That's with an eight, cR-E-8-T-I-O-N.co.
Um, and the eight is therebecause it does stand for
creating um a program that cansell without requiring your time
to do so, right?
Without requiring your time tobe in front of a client
(39:06):
delivering for them.
And eight is the number ofabundance as well.
So creation.co.
Um and we largely do done foryou program development for
self-paced programs, groupprograms, events, masterminds,
certifications, all that goodstuff.
And we also have some done withyou support.
So some of our clients prefer tolearn the skills required to
(39:28):
design programs, and we're liketheir sidekick who is giving
them the yes and no on theassets that they create.
So we've got a couple ofoptions, but really, if you're
in a place that you want toproductize your expertise, we
can help.
SPEAKER_02 (39:43):
Awesome.
I think that a lot of peoplehere are gonna be interested in
that.
Um and you're is LinkedIn yourprimary social?
SPEAKER_00 (39:55):
Uh, I actually post content on YouTube.
Okay.
But um, but I am active onLinkedIn in terms of like I
check it.
Let's see if I don't worry aboutit.
I don't post my own content, butI check it.
SPEAKER_02 (40:09):
If YouTube is your channel, that is where we will
send people.
Okay.
This actually is also onYouTube.
So people, a lot of people watchthis show on YouTube.
So we'll just make sure to linkit right there in the
description.
Then they'll pop over to yours.
SPEAKER_00 (40:23):
Hey, good to see you over there too.
SPEAKER_01 (40:26):
You love all things tiny marketing.
Head down to the show notes pageand sign up for the wait list to
join the tiny marketing clubwhere you get to work one-on-one
with me with trainings,feedback, and pop-up coaching
that will help you scale yourmarketing as a B2B service
(40:48):
business.
So I'll see you over in theclub.
Podcast that helps B2B service businesses do more
with less.
Learn lean, actionable, organicmarketing strategies you can
implement today.
No fluff, just powerful growthtactics at work.
Ready to scale smarter?
Hit that subscribe button andstart growing your business with
tiny marketing.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
Hello, audience.
I am nice to see you.
Uh my name's Jasmine Jonte.
I a have a done for you coursecreation agency.
So we work with experts,authors, speakers, coaches,
consultants, entrepreneurs, andwe pull the wisdom out of their
brain and put it intoworld-class programs.
(01:31):
Um and that can look like a lotof different things, but that's
who that's who I am.
That's what I do.
And at the heart of everythingis um teaching, background and
teaching, and also just creatingamazing experiences for clients
and for people.
All about the wow factor.
SPEAKER_02 (01:50):
You know?
Yeah.
And that's so important rightnow in particular.
So before I cue up my firstquestion, because I always do
that, I'm like, okay, I have athousand questions, but I didn't
even tell them what the topic isyet.
So we're talking today about howto become the go-to course
creator in your specific niche.
(02:10):
Before we get into that though,can you tell me like what is
changing right now?
Because I know that there's ashift in this course creator
world.
So what did it look like before?
And what does it look like in2026?
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
Hmm, I don't know when before is.
Let's just say before 2020.
So okay, let's go there.
So before 2020, um it was a lotmore challenging to create
programs.
There was no chat GPT.
You had to hit every singlekeystroke of every single
(02:48):
thumbnail uh copy piece.
And like it was just a lot morechallenging and less people
tried because of that.
Yeah.
Um, and then we entered 2020,people had more time, people
were at home.
And so like everyone had topivot online.
(03:08):
Um, even like if you look at,you know, Tony Robbins, a guy
who'd been doing in-personevents only forever, pivoted
online and had like 10x or morethe reach and impact that he did
just when he was doing hisin-person training.
So everyone went online and nowsuddenly everyone has a course.
Everyone's like, oh my gosh,it's so saturated in my niche.
(03:31):
Um, and then recently in thepast like 18 months, two years,
then ChatGPT came along.
So it got even easier to developan amaz a program.
And um what that means is nowthere's a lot of noise, and
there's a lot of people outthere who have not so great
training programs.
Um, and so we're on a mission tocombat that, right?
SPEAKER_02 (03:56):
Yeah.
I'm excited to hear like howyou're doing that because yes, a
lot more people are trying tobuild courses.
And a lot there's also like thetrust factor that so many people
put out programs in 2020 whoweren't qualified to do it.
(04:16):
And then we're like, then wepulled back a lot more than we
needed to because we were like,can we trust anybody?
Can we trust anybody?
So there's that trust recession.
But let's let's talk about that.
How do you how do you build thattrust with your audience so
(04:38):
they'd feel comfortable withyou?
And is it all digital assets ordo you mix and match?
SPEAKER_00 (04:47):
Well, if we think about building trust with our
audience, I think the easiestthing to or the easiest question
to ask to reflect on that is whoare the people that you trust on
the internet and why?
Right.
Um and I think part of that isshowcasing your expertise that
you truly are an expert.
(05:09):
Because like you said, there's alot of people out there who are
unqualified who have no businessbuilding the program that
they're building and trying tosell and market the program
they're trying to sell andmarket.
Um, and then on the flip side,there's experts out there who
have every right in the world tobe teaching what they know
online and yet they haveimposter syndrome.
Yeah.
So it's so many.
(05:31):
So it's really about like havingan honest moment with yourself
and saying, like, am I really anexpert in this?
Um, and kind of removing theemotion from it, looking at the
the success stories and theclient results that you have,
and then from that place,sharing that online.
So you're showcasing yourexpertise so the audience trusts
it.
(05:52):
Um, you know, I think that'sthat's huge.
And another element of uh ofhaving your audience trust you
is just being real and honestwith them.
Like, just like if you wereserving someone in like a
professional services capacityor um an agency capacity or
whatever it is, you wouldn'tsell them something that you
couldn't deliver on.
(06:13):
So be honest with your audienceof like if you if there is
something that is the limit orthe boundary of what you can
support them with, then like sayit.
Like, don't be afraid to say it.
SPEAKER_02 (06:25):
And it's honestly like a relief to hear someone
say, like, that's not my skillset, like and point to a
different direction, becausethen you know what they are
sharing.
They actually do know if they'recomfortable talking about what
they don't.
(06:46):
So we have the trust factor, andthen what about because you
mentioned AI, the digital versusin like the mix of digital
in-person, one-to-one contact.
How do we determine that?
SPEAKER_00 (07:05):
Uh yeah, there's a lot of questions that you gotta
ask to figure out how much uh Icall them like support
structures you want to haveinside of the program that
you're offering.
There are in-person structsupport structures and there are
uh virtual support structures.
There is one-on-one, there isgroup, there is peer support.
(07:25):
Like it can look like a lot ofdifferent things, and you have
to consider what's the resultthat you're trying to get people
or you're trying to help peopleachieve inside of your program.
And what's that ideal client?
I mean, it's so simple, it's sobasic.
But um, I remember like a coupleyears ago, I was trying to do
this retreat offer because itsounded really fun to me and it
(07:46):
sounded sexy.
Like I called it the course in aweek retreat.
And wouldn't it be amazing ifyou could come to Phoenix,
Arizona?
We'll put you up in a beautifulAirbnb, like so aesthetic, and
we get your course done in aweek.
And no one freaking bought it.
And I was like, what do youmean?
Like this support structure isamazing.
And I was right off vacation.
Vacation, come on, we're gonnahave like the whole thing, the
(08:09):
catered meals, and like I reallylike made it exclusive in Lux
and all the things, and it waslike a reasonable price point
because I was betaing it.
So I was like, Yeah, even if Idon't like make a ton of profit
on this, like I just want toprove it out.
No one bought, no one bought,and it was because I picked the
support structure that I wantedas at the time, like a
(08:30):
30-year-old, you know, woman,double income, no kids,
whatever.
And most of my ideal clientshave kids in, you know, who are
like in elementary and middleschool.
And so hard.
And they were like, I this isnot the support structure I
need, right?
(08:50):
And so I think that it it oftencomes down to like, what is your
ideal client want?
Because everyone just goesusually to the if they're having
like some kind of group program,they'll say, like, we're gonna
do a call once a week.
Well, does your ideal clientwant to show up to a call once a
week?
SPEAKER_02 (09:04):
Oh my gosh, let me raise my hand right now because
I do not for accoaching any dayof the week over in like having
to be live on something.
SPEAKER_00 (09:18):
Uh-huh.
100%.
And like there's other peoplewho they love, like the weekly,
it's gonna make me show up.
I get to put it on my calendar.
Like, there are avatars thatreally enjoy that and they like
that kind of structure androutine.
And so at the end of the day,it's like, what does your client
want?
And also, like, what are youwilling to do?
(09:39):
You know, uh, especially likewith the async work, you gotta
have boundaries on it by tellingyour clients, like, I'm gonna
get back to you within 24, 48,however many business hours,
right?
So letting them know what theycan expect from you so you're
not hog tied to Slack.
Um, but it's really, I think itreally comes down to like asking
them what they want and what doyou think they need to get the
(10:01):
result.
SPEAKER_02 (10:02):
Yeah, that is such a great point.
Like, survey the people who areinterested in your program and
find out what structure they'dlike.
Because I mean, to your point, Iwould love to go to a retreat.
I've gone to one the entire timeI've owned my business, and it
was so difficult because I wascoordinating my kids stuff at
(10:23):
the same time.
I was like, I can't do it.
As much as as fun as it is, Ican't do it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Yeah.
It's just a it's just you gottaknow what they need and what
they want and what they whatthey can do.
SPEAKER_02 (10:35):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
So let's talk about inside ofthe program.
(11:42):
How does the design of theprogram impact the one, the
success of the students, butalso the profitability.
SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
Yeah.
So in terms of the success ofthe students, this happens a
lot, is people think more ismore.
And that is not that could notbe further from the truth in the
land of TikTok and Instagramreels.
Uh people don't people don'twant to know everything they
(12:13):
want to know, the everything youknow.
They just want to know what arethe simple strategic things I
need to do in what order to getsaid result.
They want to do as little aspossible.
SPEAKER_02 (12:24):
That is absolutely true.
And I experienced it myself.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
Yeah.
So I think it's like that that'sreally the one of the benefits
of program design and like thisskill of learning, like learning
experience design, curriculumdesign, it is actually a skill.
Just like copy is a skill andsales is a skill and podcast
editing is a skill.
Like it's a skill, and a lot ofpeople don't realize that.
(12:50):
Um, but when you know thatskill, you know how to scaffold
students from where they areright now to where they want to
go in the easiest, mosteffective route possible.
Um yeah, so more is not more,less is more.
Make it as simple and easy aspossible.
Let's pause right there becauseI have to tell you a story.
SPEAKER_02 (13:10):
Oh, yeah, bring it on.
When I started betaing tinymarketing club, I put all of the
content they would need insideof it.
And I started it off with astrategic spark.
So I'd sit down with themone-on-one and I would tell them
exactly what they needed to do,but they had access to
everything.
It they raised their hand, atleast.
(13:33):
They told me, they were like,I'm distracted because I know
what I'm supposed to do.
It's right here on this sheet.
But then I'm like, well, thatlooks cool, and that looks cool,
and that looks cool.
So they would bounce around andthey couldn't complete anything.
And that's when I redesignedeverything.
So they're doing a mission infour weeks.
This is what you need toaccomplish, and these are the
(13:54):
only things that you need tolook at.
And then I hide everything else.
SPEAKER_00 (13:59):
Powerful blood they told me though.
Yeah, yeah.
It's like you you created aforcing function for focus.
SPEAKER_02 (14:06):
Yeah, yes, exactly.
I was attracting a lot of peoplewho have ADHD and creating those
containers in a way where youhad no choice but to focus on
that one thing made it a loteasier for them.
SPEAKER_00 (14:19):
Yeah.
And I I think that's somethingthat most people in most niches
uh need to consider is how do Ihelp my students focus on the 20
that creates the 80% of results.
And there are program designways to do that.
Like you said, is like you hitall the other content and they
only got access to a certainamount of time.
(14:41):
You can also do choose your ownadventure uh programs where it's
like there's a quiz or there'ssomething, there's an AI agent
or something at the beginningthat kind of puts them in like a
track.
If you I like that idea.
And then so even though you canhave people who come in um with
different challenges ordifferent unique uh things about
(15:02):
them, you can kind ofpersonalize it.
And then they feel like, oh,like this is this is just for
me, but without it needing to bea one-on-one consultation call,
right?
Yeah, that's yeah, superbrilliant.
And maybe I'll I'll take thatfor for later.
Take it, take it.
Um, so yeah, there's programdesign ways to create focus.
(15:23):
And then the other thing is likejust reminding your students,
like so many people forget justbecause they bought something,
just because they bought yourprogram doesn't mean they're
gonna engage with it.
You know, yeah, like they buy itand they log in, but are you
prompting them to log back in?
Like, are you sending themengagement emails?
Oh, could you run an ad just toyour client list to remind them
(15:46):
to do their homework that week?
I mean, like, cheapest ad ever,you know what I'm saying?
But like it increases theresults that people get and it
shows that you really care.
So really smart.
I never would have thought ofthat.
Yeah.
It's like you know, but you knowexactly which email, you know?
And you can do fun things like Isee you on Instagram.
(16:07):
Yes, it's your coach calling,and I see you on Instagram, and
you need to stop the scrollbecause remember, this week is
about whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (16:14):
Oh my god.
I love that.
That is a cute and brilliantidea.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
Yeah.
So remember, like they're gonnaget they're gonna get unfocused,
they're gonna be distracted.
How can you pull their attentionback to where you want it by
interrupting their their thoughtpatterns wherever they are,
whether that's email or textmessage campaigns or push
notifications or ads.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:40):
So smart.
I just started within the lastcouple of months putting
together workflows because theywere getting weekly emails on
what to do, but now I haveworkflows where like it
automatically DMs them like, areyou are you working on this
right now?
Ping me when you're ready totalk about it.
Which platform are you in?
SPEAKER_00 (17:00):
Heartbeat.
Okay.
I don't know heartbeat, but uh,I don't know well, I should say.
I know of it.
We haven't built on there yet.
Um, but I love things like that,like bulk actions or um, and
also on the flip side, right?
Not just like connecting withthem when they haven't logged in
for seven days and that's theworkflow trigger.
But when they completesomething, having a DM that
(17:22):
says, like, congratulations, youjust unlocked this thing that
you didn't know you were gonnaget.
Or like giving, oh my gosh, thiswas this is crazy for course
completion, is especially if youhave like a cohort or if you
have a tight kind of knitcommunity, you can give them
shout outs in the community forcompleting the module of the
week because you can see theircompletion.
(17:43):
Oh, yeah, that's a good idea.
So it's like small littletouches like that can go a long
way.
Positive peer pressure.
SPEAKER_02 (17:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so those are some designelements that can make sure that
your your clients are successfulin there.
Now, what design elements wouldlead to higher profitability?
SPEAKER_00 (18:07):
Really good question.
Um, so we call them moneymakers.
And I like the name already.
We call them moneymakers.
The key here is to decide whatyou want to upsell.
Um, if we think about you know,the three ways to grow a
(18:27):
business, there's more clients,there's increasing the average
transaction value, and there'sincreasing referrals or
retention.
So when we think about what arewe upselling, um, that's one way
to increase like the lifetimevalue of a client.
So they didn't just buy yourmini course, but they also
bought your signature course, orthey also opted in for coaching.
(18:50):
And you can build those into aprogram in a lot of different
ways.
You can literally talk aboutthem in your videos, you can add
them to workbooks, you can addthem to portal copy, you can add
them to sidebar buttons.
Like there's a lot of ways youcan talk about your other offers
naturally inside of yourprograms from a place of not
like go buy my more, go buy moreshit now.
(19:13):
It's not like that, but it'slike, yeah, you know, especially
like, oh, I love telling clientstories.
So for example, I have a minicourse and Sarah, you're my mini
course.
Okay.
And, but you also bought myone-on-one coaching.
And so in the mini course, Itell your story and I'm like, oh
my gosh, when Sarah, she shewent through this module and it
(19:35):
completely shifted the way shedid X, Y, Z.
I'm so like, we're so happy forher.
And it shifted so much for her.
She actually joined ourone-on-one coaching and she got
Y result too.
Isn't that crazy?
And then you just kind of moveinto what's next.
So you're like naturally openingloops and planting seeds
throughout the whole journeywith the assumption that they're
joining the next thing that youhave available.
(19:58):
Oh, that's really smart.
SPEAKER_02 (19:59):
Yeah.
I do that in like workshopswhere people aren't part of my
program yet.
Offer nodding, talking aboutlike if one of my clients is
also at that workshop bringingit up, but I haven't thought to
do it that way.
That's really smart.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
Um you can so you can do that, right?
Like you can embed it intovideos, into workbooks, into
portal, into all of that, thatgood stuff.
Um, but you can also do thingsthat support um the other ways
to grow a business.
So that's like LTV.
(20:37):
But can you do things likeadding a really easy Instagram
shareable celebration so thatnow they're posting your stuff
to the internet about yourprogram, which increases
referrals.
Like Mar, there's like a wholeton of things you can do, but it
all is about strategy.
It's like, what are youupselling?
(20:58):
When in the program are youtalking about it?
And how is it being delivered?
Um, so you gotta look at it fromthe it's hard to do this
retroactively.
You kind of have to do it whenyou build the program.
SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
Yeah, definitely.
For most of those for sure.
I was just thinking about how itwould work with your the tracks
that you were talking aboutearlier.
Like if they were to take a quizto determine what track they
were in, um, you would naturallyknow what track would make the
most sense for that person next.
So you can have an upsell, atleast in heartbeat, this is a
(21:30):
possibility where it pops up forthat specific group, showing
them like this is what your nextlogical track would be.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Yeah, there's um, so I work a lot in circle and I
find this works the best there.
But same vibes is we have AIagents that help support
students going through aparticular program.
And that agent is trained on ourupsells.
So when a client in the with theagent says a certain thing, that
the agent will respond with,that's amazing, like answers
(22:02):
question.
Have you considered joining thecertification program?
So, like starting to leveragethings like AI agents, which
again can be natural upsellvehicles, and that's independent
of the course content.
So, like, think about one of ourclients, they've had a this
business for 15 years and theyhave, I don't know, 10 or 15
(22:23):
offers that all sell like everymonth.
And so we're not gonna redo someof those offers.
We're gonna keep the courses asthey are, but we're adding AI
agents that are now trading theupsell.
So even if in the program itselfthere's no upsells included, the
AI agent is starting to weavethat into the the client
journey.
So smart.
SPEAKER_02 (22:44):
So smart.
Do you know Brie Lever?
Yeah, okay.
I was gonna say you guys need totalk because she knows the
community side, you do thecourse creator side.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:57):
I'm glad you know each other.
She's awesome.
She's awesome.
Yeah, I think she's very likeheavy into the community.
We do a little community stuff,uh, but we're not like we
definitely don't do management.
Like, I definitely don't do anymore like compliment each other,
yeah.
It's more like offer strategyand how that weaves into
(23:17):
community and stuff and howprogramming works with it, but
yeah, no.
SPEAKER_02 (23:20):
Management, stay out of that.
I don't blame you.
Bree has a gift.
Yeah, absolutely.
So when people are building outtheir courses, what do you see
as the most common mistakes?
You come in and you're like, ohno.
SPEAKER_00 (23:42):
Oh yes.
The oh no factor happens quite abit when we're doing our audits.
Um one thing is they don't maketheir program actionable.
So they're just like sharingcontent, but they're not so
there's no outcome.
Yeah, they're and everything wedo with program design is all
reverse engineered.
(24:03):
So, like if you take it on thehighest level, what's the
result?
What's the transformation A to Bthat they get from this course?
Okay, now what are themilestones, the milestone
results they should hit alongthe way?
That's like your module levelresults.
And then you break down and youhave a lesson level result.
What are the lesson levelresults that when they do these
things, it really relates to themodule levels and then the
(24:24):
modules relate to the bit,right?
Yeah.
Most people are just like, yeah,I think I should just kind of
spitball and share, share ideasand content, but they're not
telling them what to do.
And then kind of attached tothat is they're not giving them
resources to make it easy to do.
Yeah.
So, you know, especially in theworld of AI, like, come on now.
(24:45):
Like, we got AI coach clones, wegot custom GPTs, we got
dashboards, we got vibe coding.
Like, there are so many thingsyou can do to make it easy as
pie to get results.
And um it's just, I don't Idon't really have like a lot of
um what's the word I'm lookingfor?
Not empathy.
I just think it kind of comesacross as lazy at this point if
(25:07):
you're not providing things likethat because it's easier to do.
SPEAKER_02 (25:11):
It's easy to do, and it's so helpful.
Like the favorite, my favoriteprogram that I've been in has
been it's basically what youwere talking about, where like
there's they have checked likecustom GPTs for all of the
things that I need to do on aregular basis with them that
makes it so much easier.
(25:32):
And then I have async coachingwith them.
So it's like the best of bothworlds, the easiest way to win.
SPEAKER_00 (25:40):
Yeah, totally.
And that's how we designed ourlike I have a program, and
that's how we designed it, likefor that reason.
Like everything has its ownlittle custom GPT that's trained
on the 120 courses that we'vebuilt, right?
And like what we know works.
And uh, you know, you got totrain your people that just
cause, and I'm sure you withwith the the agents and things
that you're using inside of thatprogram, it doesn't give you
(26:02):
perfect first draft, but no,it's better than a blank page.
SPEAKER_02 (26:07):
Yeah, yeah.
And there's a lot of onboardingquestions that get you like 99%
of the way to a good firstdraft.
Yeah, totally.
Okay, I love that.
And is there anything else thatyou're seeing in programs that
are like, why are you why?
Why?
(26:27):
Why are we doing this?
Um oh gosh, can we talk aboutonboarding?
That is the first thing thatcame into my mind because if you
have bad onboarding, which Ihave had before, I'm instantly
out.
I'm like, actually, I regretthis decision.
Yes, let's talk about it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:45):
Oh yeah, oh gosh.
Yeah, I think that when you theeasiest way to check if your
onboarding is decent is thinkabout everything that you put on
the sales page and do they knowwhere to find everything that
you put on the sales page withintheir first uh email touch point
(27:08):
and their first video touchpoint.
Like such a good point.
It's really not hard.
And the thing is, if you don'tgive them their bonuses right
away, that's fine.
Like there are plenty ofprograms I have built that they
have to reach a certainmilestone to activate a bonus
because up until that point,like to our point earlier, it's
a distraction.
(27:30):
So we're forcing focus by notgiving them access to all the
content, which is fine, but tellthem when they will get access
to it.
So it's not a question I'llreply, is like, where are you?
Yes, yes, or or you're not, andyou're just getting people who
are asking for a refund or justpiecing out and never logging in
again.
Yeah.
(27:50):
So so that's a big piece.
And then the other thing toconsider about upsells or I'm
sorry, onboarding is are youtrying to upsell them from the
jump?
Because I have seen thisunfortunately.
And people it's like, especiallyif it's like a lower ticket
membership or like a lowerticket masterclass or something,
and someone paid, I don't know,50 bucks for it, in the first
(28:14):
email, they're talking abouttheir signature course.
Yeah, coaching.
SPEAKER_02 (28:19):
Or even on the thank you page.
Oh my gosh, on the thank youpage.
SPEAKER_00 (28:23):
And it is my goodness, like the only thing
you want them to feel in thevery beginning is like your
excitement for them and yourcongratulation.
Like they they want to feelcongratulated and celebrated and
safe.
Like they found a person who'sgot me and my problem is gonna
be solved.
Not I just got duped by someonewho wants more of my money.
(28:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:48):
The immediate upsell on the next page and then in the
email, and then the series ofemails is too much because no
one even got a win in that shortof a period of time.
SPEAKER_03 (29:00):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
Yeah, totally.
So onboarding.
And I would say, like, if youare listening to this and you
don't have a course, go look atyour services onboarding too,
because you might have that sameproblem.
We help people sometimes withtheir like client success
journey.
And what does that look likeinside of a service-based
business?
Oftentimes there's a curriculumconnected to that as well.
(29:23):
But it's like even servicesbusinesses.
I feel like most people do apoor job with their onboarding.
SPEAKER_02 (29:30):
Yeah.
I worked with someone who hadthe most amazing onboarding that
I started referring her toeveryone just because I loved
her onboarding.
I'm like, can't go wrong.
What did she do that was soamazing?
Well, so she was a web designer,but from the very beginning, I
(29:52):
was able to one look at theproposal.
She used Ubsado for this, butthe proposal to contract to pay
right away.
And then I automatically got anemail telling me everything I
should expect with like anonboarding um like milestones
that I need to go through inorder to be ready for that
(30:12):
project.
And I was like, that's so smart.
I'm stealing all of this.
SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
Yep.
I the visual, so we talk aboutframeworks a lot, is like it's
the visual for your predictable,repeatable process to
transformation inside ofcourses, right?
It's like, what's your method ina growth?
Yeah.
And I am a firm believer thatevery service-based business
should also have that for theirclients.
(30:39):
So they know here's the phasesthat you're gonna go through.
Here's the touch points at eachof these phases, here's what we
need from you.
And um, yeah, same thing is likepeople will often say, Hey, can
we just use your onboarding?
Can we just do what you did formy onboarding?
And I literally think that's thelinchpin is like this visual
that people it just grounds theminto again, what's happening and
(31:00):
when and what do they need todo?
SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
Yeah, that just remind me.
I worked with a different webcompany.
This was for myself this time,the other person I hired for
someone else.
But they had during theironboarding, they had like every
milestone I had to hit before weworked together, but also like I
it was on my calendar.
Like, I need to turn in my copyby this date.
And if we don't, this we'll haveto move it back two weeks.
(31:26):
So I had like a clearunderstanding of everything I
had to do to be able to keep myday.
SPEAKER_00 (31:33):
Yeah.
Really smart.
Put it on the calendar.
We with a lot of our done withyou clients, we'll say that too.
We'll be like, okay, so we needyour outline by this day.
When are you gonna do it?
Like, pull up your calendarright now.
Show me where it's time blocked.
Do you have?
X amount of hours time blocked.
Okay.
Now put in your calendar whenyou're going to send it to me.
Because they just need the handholding sometimes.
(31:54):
We're all have a million thingsgoing on and we need some
direction.
SPEAKER_02 (31:59):
And it's so easy to forget when you're in like
deliverability wasteland andyou're like, oh my God, I owe
Jasmine my curriculum tomorrow.
Yep.
Been there.
How important do you thinkcommunity is when it comes to
the course itself?
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
I think it depends again on ideal client and the
result.
So when I when we do like minicourses, our goal with a mini
course is for someone to be ableto log in, take it one time in
like under an hour, log out, andnever have to log in again.
Like it's a specific, tangibleresult that they should be able
to get after watching one timethrough the program.
(32:44):
That's my goal with a minicourse.
Okay.
With a signature course, that'ssomething that takes more time.
There might be feedback loops inthere.
It's inherently longer.
So if we think about podcasting,a mini course is how to record
your first episode.
A signature course is how tolaunch your podcast in the top
50 of your category.
(33:06):
So you can see the difference intransformation there.
With the second one, I thinkcommunity is usually important.
This is the caveat on the idealclient.
Some clients don't really wantto be in a community related to
your stuff, but they do want theasync support.
Um but I'd say I don't want togive it a sp like a specific
(33:28):
number, um, but most can benefitfrom having some kind of
community aspect, whether that'severgreen or cohort-based.
That's good to know.
SPEAKER_02 (33:43):
Okay.
So when you're talking minicourse, it's more of like you
want to complete something inless than an hour.
This is the thing.
And when you're talking like asignature program, it's a
transformation.
It's like a loftier goal thatyou have to that you're working
(34:03):
through.
Yes.
Okay.
This was incredibly helpful.
Is there anything else that youwant the audience to know?
SPEAKER_00 (34:13):
I would just say that the course creator journey
requires commitment.
Um, it's rare that I have aclient come in and launch a
program for the first time andhit the moon that they want to
hit.
So it is something that um it'sa long game.
(34:37):
And if you hold the vision andkeep the vision and just don't
give up, it will happen.
Um and that not giving up, thatresilience piece, is exactly
what will keep you successful asyou continue on in this world of
(34:57):
more and more content creatorscoming on the scene.
So yeah, resilience.
Stick with it.
SPEAKER_02 (35:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Earlier before we hit record,and I was talking about the
consulting call I was on, theywere talking about selling
passive products.
SPEAKER_00 (35:16):
Just knew I was gonna see an eye roll from there
is nothing passive about this.
No, everyone said, like, I'm sotired of these people on the
internet saying, like, oh, oh,you can make passive income with
a course.
Like, there are there is activemarketing activity happening in
order to create passive income.
Whether that active marketingactivity is you paying someone
(35:38):
to run and manage your adsaccount or doing it yourself, or
there is some activityhappening.
It doesn't necessarily happen toneed to happen by you, but to
get from not doing, you know,just barely getting your course
out there to then having a teamthat runs the whole business for
you so that you don't have to beactive, that is a huge, huge
(36:02):
journey.
There are many, many steps onthat journey.
So uh yeah, pause before youlisten to the person who's like,
you can sit on a beach and drinkspicy margaritas and hear your
PayPal ding.
Like it doesn't quite happenlike that.
No, it doesn't.
SPEAKER_02 (36:18):
I've been making courses since like 2015, and
never once was I was thathappening.
SPEAKER_00 (36:28):
Yes.
And here's the thing is some ofthose people saying that had
some huge frickin' audience, andthen they started to do that.
SPEAKER_02 (36:36):
That I think is the biggest like problem that people
people think that it's easy, butyou need a massive audience when
you're selling especially alow-ticket product.
SPEAKER_00 (36:51):
Yeah, and you have to it's a personal brand play a
lot of the time.
You know, yeah, you need massiveaudience trust and you have so
much trust built.
SPEAKER_02 (37:00):
It takes a lot of work to get there.
When I have people joining,because the people that come to
the tiny marketing club, they'remainly doing services.
They're solo consultants doingservices.
So when they come and they talkto me about like possibly
wanting to move into a course, Iwas like, slow your roll.
We're not there yet.
(37:20):
You need to be at a point whereyou're so in demand that you're
you can't take on anymore.
And then we can talk aboutsomething like that.
SPEAKER_00 (37:28):
And and here's the thing is normally you start with
your one-on-one and then youmove to like a group coaching or
group consulting containerbefore you move into the
self-paced.
Like people skip that step.
They go straight from I want togo one-on-one to having a
self-paced course.
If you have the money from yourone-on-one to then fund the
marketing and like the ads andthe development, you need a lot
(37:49):
of ads to make that work.
Yeah, like it can totally work.
If you're like, I'm thinking ofas like some lawyer clients or
some dental clients, like reallyum high income earning services,
like that's a possibility.
But if you're a chiropractor orsomething, like who's who
doesn't yield that same hourlyrate, it's you you there you
have to have this kind of middlegroup step to get some leverage
(38:12):
on your time before then goingself-paced.
SPEAKER_02 (38:15):
Yeah, that's a good point too, because you're in
that middle step, you'relearning how to sell at scale,
but on a mini version of it.
So it's just like a baby stepup.
SPEAKER_00 (38:28):
Yeah.
And you command a higher pricepoint than just like a
self-paced course because theyget access to you.
So yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_02 (38:34):
Yes.
You might end up just likingthat.
Who knows?
Who knows?
Um, how can people work with youand find you online?
SPEAKER_00 (38:44):
Yeah, so you can find us uh at the website.
It's www.creation.
That's with an eight, cR-E-8-T-I-O-N.co.
Um, and the eight is therebecause it does stand for
creating um a program that cansell without requiring your time
to do so, right?
Without requiring your time tobe in front of a client
(39:06):
delivering for them.
And eight is the number ofabundance as well.
So creation.co.
Um and we largely do done foryou program development for
self-paced programs, groupprograms, events, masterminds,
certifications, all that goodstuff.
And we also have some done withyou support.
So some of our clients prefer tolearn the skills required to
(39:28):
design programs, and we're liketheir sidekick who is giving
them the yes and no on theassets that they create.
So we've got a couple ofoptions, but really, if you're
in a place that you want toproductize your expertise, we
can help.
SPEAKER_02 (39:43):
Awesome.
I think that a lot of peoplehere are gonna be interested in
that.
Um and you're is LinkedIn yourprimary social?
SPEAKER_00 (39:55):
Uh, I actually post content on YouTube.
Okay.
But um, but I am active onLinkedIn in terms of like I
check it.
Let's see if I don't worry aboutit.
I don't post my own content, butI check it.
SPEAKER_02 (40:09):
If YouTube is your channel, that is where we will
send people.
Okay.
This actually is also onYouTube.
So people, a lot of people watchthis show on YouTube.
So we'll just make sure to linkit right there in the
description.
Then they'll pop over to yours.
SPEAKER_00 (40:23):
Hey, good to see you over there too.
SPEAKER_01 (40:26):
You love all things tiny marketing.
Head down to the show notes pageand sign up for the wait list to
join the tiny marketing clubwhere you get to work one-on-one
with me with trainings,feedback, and pop-up coaching
that will help you scale yourmarketing as a B2B service
(40:48):
business.
So I'll see you over in theclub.
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