November 30, 2025 • 41 mins
We share how paid workshops outperform free events, from higher live attendance to faster sales, and break down the steps to pick topics, price smart, and pitch without pressure. Annemarie Rose shows how to build lean promos, partner well, and turn tiny offers into scalable growth.
• why paid drives attention, trust, and results
• mindset shift to charge and keep it simple
• lean promotion with partners and interest lists
• topic selection that starts with symptoms
• pricing ranges, early bird, and order bumps
• low-tech rev share and checkout options
• ideal workshop length and interactive flow
• teaching the full transformation to pitch cleanly
• using workshops to test and ladder offers
Join the gateway offer challenge today. Your business will thank you. Go to challenge.saranoelblock.com
AnnMarie Rose is an Online Business Scaling Strategist with nearly a decade of experience helping coaches, consultants and service providers leverage their zone of genius to scale with clarity, confidence and flexible, personalized strategy.
She has helped hundreds of service-based leaders navigate scaling mode with ease by refining their offer suite to support their vision and personal strengths and streamlining their marketing and sales systems so they can impact and earn millions online without overwhelm or burnout -- even as their life and desires evolve.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annmarierose/
Join my events community for FREE monthly events.
I offer free events each month to help you master your business's growth through marketing, sales, systems, and offer strategy.
Join the community here!
Are you tired of prospects ghosting you? With a Gateway Offer, that won't happen.
Over the next Ten Days, we will launch and sell our Gateway Offers with the goal of reaching booked-out status!
Join the challenge here.
Schedule a Booked-out Blueprint >>> Schedule.
Come tour my digital home :) >>>Website
Wanna be friends? >>> LinkedIn
Let's chat every Tuesday! >>> Newsletter
Catch the video podcast on YouTube >>>YouTube
Join my event group for live events >>>Meetup
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
This is a podcast that helps B2B service
businesses do more with less.
Learn lean, actionable, organicmarketing strategies you can
implement today.
No fluff, just powerful growthtactics at work.
Ready to scale smarter?
Hit that subscribe button andstart growing your business with
Tiny Marketing.
(01:58):
Hello and welcome back to TinyMarketing.
I'm Sarah Noelblock, and this isepisode 165.
Since it is a holiday weekend, Iam sharing my most popular
episode as of this week.
It's an underground hit.
It's a hidden gem.
I had no idea that it wasranking so well until I looked
(02:20):
at my stats.
So I thought this is the perfectopportunity to bring it to new
people who haven't heard thisepisode before.
But it is teaching a strategythat has worked really, really
well for me.
And I actually learned it fromher.
So today's episode featuresexpert guest Anne-Marie Rose,
(02:45):
who teaches us how to leveragepaid workshops to fill our
larger offers.
She is a scalability expert.
And when I became booked outusing the strategies that I
teach you inside of the TinyMarketing Club, I went to Anne
Marie Rose.
(03:06):
And I was like, what do I donow?
What now?
I am at capacity.
I cannot take on any moreclients.
What do I do?
So I worked with her to come upwith a series of ideas that I
could leverage to build morescalable offers.
(03:26):
And to fill those, sherecommended paid workshops.
And paid workshops have nowbecome one of my core offers,
not only because it's morescalable, but also because it
gives you a taste of what it'slike to work with me.
It mirrors the experience insideof the Tiny Marketing Club.
(03:50):
And in my experience at least,paid workshops have been,
they've proven that they get alot more live participants than
free events because you haveone, you've invested.
You've invested in this timethat you're going to spend with
me.
(04:10):
So you want to get the most fromit.
So, you know, while my freetrainings might have been
awesome, it didn't really matterbecause they were free.
There wasn't a value attached toit.
But with my paid workshops, youwant to make sure that you're
getting the value that youinvested into it.
(04:30):
So you're going to attend,you're going to participate,
you're going to get as much asyou can from that experience as
possible.
And it makes complete sense.
I'm exactly the same way.
But let me tell you a statthat's kind of gonna blow your
mind.
So everybody's experience isdifferent, but with me, my free
(04:54):
events get about a 50% liveshow-up rate.
While my paid events, which aremore intensive, more time, but
you get some outcome at the endof it, they get a 95% show-up
rate live, which is huge.
(05:15):
So I hope that cues up thisepisode well, where Anne Marie
is going to teach you how toleverage paid workshops to fill
your high-ticket offers.
Enjoy.
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
I'm Anne-Marie Rose.
I'm an online business scalingstrategist.
And for nearly a decade now,I've been helping online
business owners to leveragetheir zone of genius and to do
so in a way that supports notonly the vision that they have
for the impact that they want tohave on the world, but in a way
that supports their season oflife.
I've been doing that in variousways over the years from
marketing things that Sarahknows very well, and then has
(05:51):
evolved over time to be morecomprehensive business strategy
consulting for those businessowners who are service-based
business owners and they want tocreate more scalability so that
they can enjoy more freedom fortheir life, impact more people,
and of course enjoy more revenuein the process.
One of the ways I love helpingmy clients to scale their sales
process is with paid workshops,which is why I'm super excited
to be here today.
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
I am excited to talk about this.
And for anybody listening rightnow, I have worked with Anne
Marie Rose.
It she helped me develop theLean Marketing Accelerator and
the Tiny Marketing Club.
So her genius got into that.
So let's get into workshops.
And specifically paid workshops.
(06:33):
Okay, so let me preempt this.
I have done workshops and I havedone master classes a bajillion
times, but for the first timeever, I'm doing a paid one.
And you inspired that.
So can you tell me whyspecifically paid workshops work
well for generating hot leads?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
Well, very simply, I'll give you the simple answer.
We can have a deeperconversation about it.
But when people pay, they payattention.
When they pay attention, theyshow up and they get results.
When they get results, theybuild trust.
When they build trust, they buyand they buy more.
Yeah.
Really the path, right?
And that it ultimately comesdown to free getting lost very
(07:16):
easily, especially with as noisyas things are and as short as
our attention spans have become,free just simply gets lost.
And people don't get that resultfrom the free thing.
Therefore, they don't build thetrust in the same way.
SPEAKER_00 (07:29):
Fact, yes.
I have so many free thingssitting in my inbox that are
like, they're on on red justbecause I'm like, I know I want
to go back to that, but Ihaven't had a chance yet.
But anytime I pay for something,I'm immediately in there.
And I paid for your workshopworkshop, where you touched on
the basis of that.
(07:50):
Before we hit record today, Isaid I was really apprehensive
about charging for a workshop.
And you said pretty mucheverybody is.
So you said when they pay, theypay attention.
I agree with you there.
I'm more willing to show up forthat.
But how do you fill these paidengagements when there are so
many free ones available?
SPEAKER_01 (08:14):
Well, first, I'll just use myself as an example.
There's a mindset piece and astrategy piece to this here,
right?
One is trusting that it's goingto fill.
That's what effectively what youdid.
You didn't do anything reallydifferently in your marketing.
You were just like, I trust thatdoing things this way is going
to work.
And the reason it does work isbecause buyers have caught onto
their own BS, basically.
(08:34):
And I know myself personally,not everybody's this way.
But if I sign up for free, I'mprobably not going to use it.
But if I pay for it, I am.
So I almost see it as a serviceto say, okay, let me put a price
tag on this so you'll actuallyget value from it rather than it
just becoming another unreadmessage in your inbox,
cluttering up your life, yourbrand space.
(08:54):
We don't need that, right?
So it's added value to put evena small price tag there.
So trusting that people willjump in is the first step.
And then of course, if you areworking, you know, you have a
smaller audience size, whatever.
I've had clients with literallyno social media or email
following leverage this sameapproach, just with direct
(09:16):
outreach to some people who theythought could be a fit for it
and sell out a$297 workshop intwo weeks' time.
So yeah, it's about looking atwhere are your people.
And if you're breaking into abrand new audience, there's lots
of different ways that you couldgo about doing things like a JV
partnership or leveragingpromotion partners.
There's lots of differentoptions out there to call people
(09:38):
into your world.
So it's there's the reach piece,yes, but ultimately to put a
price tag on it and trust peoplewill sign up comes down to
literally trust.
SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
Yeah.
Let's get into some of thosestrategies that people can do to
fill them.
I can tell you what I did for mymost recent one.
And that was partnerships.
I shared it with people that Iknew had the audience that would
want to go to it.
And um, in value content, Iwould add in a PS on the
(11:10):
workshop and explain it.
I did podcast guesting where Iwould talk about it.
I did podcast theories aboutthose topics, email, obviously,
tons of email.
But I think the biggest driverwas the value content leading to
the culmination of you know, wecan actually act on this in this
(11:32):
workshop.
That led to the biggest fight.
Anytime I did that, I was like,oh, there's some more.
Hey there, amazing founders.
Ready to take your business tothe next level?
Join our Gateway Offer Challengeand watch your sales soar.
In this challenge, you'll getmany Gateway Offer trainings to
(11:55):
perfect your offers.
Learn how to structure yourdocumentation so it sells for
you, create buzz around youroffer, and identify eager
clients with our sales training.
Plus, get exclusive outreachtemplates that take the
guesswork out of prospecting.
And because selling should befun, we've gamified this
challenge.
Who can sell the most gatewayoffers?
(12:16):
And let's not forget, you'llalso learn how to effortlessly
upsell to your signature offer.
Ready to level up?
Join the gateway offer challengetoday.
Your business will thank you.
Go to challenge.saranoelblock.com.
That is C H A L L E N G E dotS-A-R-A-H-N-O E L B L O C K dot
(12:42):
com.
SPEAKER_01 (12:47):
Yep, totally.
Um, and I mean I take a really,really lean approach.
I don't have a podcast.
Um, I don't do like a ton ofsocial media content.
So I take a really leanapproach.
Um, almost three years ago whenI did my very first paid
workshop, I did it with apromotion partner who I knew her
audience.
I already had a very, very smalllist, very, very small social
(13:08):
media following.
When I say very small, likevery, very small.
I know small is incrediblyrelative here, but we're talking
like at that point around athousand, maybe 1,500 people.
And I knew she had an audiencethat trusted her.
And we had complimentary subjectmatter that we that we dealt
with.
So she was not another businessstrategist or business coach per
se, but she dealt with more ofthe mindset side of things.
(13:29):
And so we hosted a joint ventureworkshop, and there were a lot
of her people that came to that.
And it was great.
We just, you know, did a revenueshare for that, and it worked
out really beautifully.
And that took a lot of the liftoff me to, I didn't really do a
ton to promote that one onsocial media at all.
I think I sent a few emails, butI knew that her audience was
(13:50):
gonna be hot for this.
And now I'm at a point where Istill have a very small but
mighty audience and it's growinga little bit over time.
And so I really just promote itvia social media.
I send some emails, I sendanywhere between five and 10,
depending on honestly, like whatI have capacity for.
(14:10):
Cause I write all my own emails.
And then my favorite thing to dois leverage promotion partners,
and I usually keep that prettylean as well.
Like we haven't at least up tothis point done it where we've
had like 10.
There's usually like one or twowho I know pretty well.
SPEAKER_00 (14:23):
Yeah, 10 would be a lot to handle.
SPEAKER_01 (14:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So and there's there's so manydifferent things you can do.
I think what it comes down tobecause you're a marketer at the
end of the day, and like this iswhat you do day in and day out.
And so if someone's listeningwho maybe isn't like marketing
hasn't become the consistentthing that you want it to be for
(14:47):
yourself and for your business.
Well, first of all, work withSarah, but um the you can do
this with really, really lightlift promo.
Like I said, I've had clients dothis with they don't have that
audience they're trying to reachwith their workshop, they have
no one in their social mediafollowing who falls into that
category.
So it can work.
It's just about having apersonalized approach that's
(15:09):
gonna work for you.
SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
Yeah.
And with that, I want to touchon creating interest lists for
events like this.
And you can do it low lift withsocial media.
Like polls are still pushed outpretty well in most algorithms,
whatever social media channelyou like.
So if you're creating some sortof social media post with a poll
(15:31):
on it, anybody who says they'reinterested in the topic that
you're doing your workshop on,you could send them a DM and
invite them to that workshop.
Create little interest lists allover the place that is like
there's not a lot of pressure onit.
It's like a mini little handraise with it.
SPEAKER_01 (15:49):
Yes, I love a good, good mini hand raise moment.
SPEAKER_00 (15:52):
Yeah.
And you can do it too in youremail, where if you're talking
about a topic related to yourworkshop, you can set up a link
action where it'll segment ifthey click on a certain link.
Like let's say you were a guestin a podcast and you happen to
be talking about paid workshops.
If they click on that, it wouldsegment them to interested in
(16:12):
paid workshops.
And that's a highly engagedinterest list.
Their little mini handraisehappened.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
Totally.
So yeah, there's all sorts ofthings you can do, and you can
get super savvy with it.
You can keep things reallysimple.
Um, there's just so manydifferent ways you can go about
it.
It just I like I said, I'm justbig on what's gonna work for you
for your seasonal life right nowand for just the way your brain
works.
SPEAKER_00 (16:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I really like that you alwayswhen you're working with
someone, it's always like, well,how much time do you have in
your life and what do you wantit to look like?
And then kind of reverseengineering from there.
SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
One, because it doesn't, it's like there's no
point in trying to fit a roundpeg in a square hole.
Yes.
It's just a recipe for burnoutand frustration.
SPEAKER_00 (16:58):
Um, as a manifesting generator, I am constantly
talking about how I always feellike I'm this square peg trying
to fit in a round hole and it'snever gonna happen.
It just feels like friction.
SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
So that's a really great thingabout paid workshops for
manifesting generators who wantto try different things and
explore different topics.
Paid workshops are great becauseit's not like you have to commit
to a whole new year-long offeror big, you know, new service
that you're providing around aparticular topic.
You can just host a paidworkshop.
And if there's enough interestin that paid workshop topic, you
(17:33):
can say, hmm, well, should thisbe a deeper offer than I think?
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
That's exactly how I use them.
I use my free master classesthat way too.
But that's exactly what I do.
I use it as a way to test anoffer and it's like a little
mini beta, and then maybe I'llexpand it to a bigger beta where
I'll turn that workshop into amini course and see the interest
there.
And then maybe I'll expand itfrom there.
(17:57):
If it's but it's like littletesting grounds that you can do
where you're still getting paid,but you're seeing if the offer
has legs.
SPEAKER_01 (18:06):
Exactly.
I have a client, her specialtyis in marketing data.
She just hosted a workshop lastweek all about leveraging your
data to have the best, mostsuccessful Black Friday
promotion period possible.
And she realized like how muchshe loves being able to go into
the implementation side ofthings, but just that a one to
two hour container isn't thebest container for that.
(18:30):
And um, so what she's likelygoing to be doing is turning her
like dream case workshopexperience into a group VIP day
offer.
And then scaling way back onwhat the workshop itself
actually is, less on theimplementation, more on the
awareness side of things.
And that works well for hersubject matter because she is
working with a lot of clientswho aren't, they're not like are
(18:54):
already deeply steeped in thesubject matter she covers.
So she realized through doingthe workshop one way that this
is actually a great, she's gonnastreamline out the experience to
have a more simplified workshopthat leads to a more full-scale,
comprehensive offer.
So much opportunity can comefrom hosting a paid workshop
(19:15):
that people just can't evenanticipate.
I couldn't put it all on a salespage for a program.
Every client that comes in showsup and goes through the process
of putting a scalable systemtogether around paid workshops
to sell more of what they offerends up on the other side with
not only more sales, but alsosome new initiative going on in
their business that theywouldn't have been able to
(19:36):
arrive at otherwise, which isreally cool to see.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
That client just made me think of something you
can also have, like offerstaircase with that.
If you have a paid workshop, youcan have a little order bump or
an upgrade that's available atthe checkout.
You usually have one of thosewhere you can get a boxer week
along it.
So with that one, it could be uha group implementation day as an
(20:04):
upgrade.
And then the next one up couldbe the offer that you ultimately
want to sell, whatever yoursignature offer is.
Yep.
Okay, let's see.
We went off topic.
SPEAKER_01 (20:19):
Still on the topic of paid workshops, but yeah, I
love being able to just take itwhere the like let things flow
in whatever way we think isgonna be valuable for you and I
in the audience.
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
Like I mean, I think all of this will be valuable.
I just want to make sure I hitall of the little learning
points that you want to hit.
So one of the things that youmentioned is there's one thing
that'll make or break your ROI.
And what is that?
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Very simply, your workshop topic.
This is something I've beenwanting to be like just so blunt
about on social media.
Most people get this wrong.
Like, I don't care.
My clients are so freakingsmart, it is just hard to do for
yourself.
It's hard to see for yourself.
Like, I'm an expert at this, andmy own workshop topics
definitely have room to improvebecause we're so freaking close
to it.
Yeah, we're so close to it thatwe tend to and create, choose
(21:12):
workshop topics that's forsomeone who's been spending day
in and day out in our brain andunderstands everything we
understand.
And the reality is, yes, thereare some people in your world
most likely who all know whattheir problem is and they're on
the hunt for a solution.
And they're accurate about whatthe problem is, and they're on
the hunt for a solution.
(21:34):
So it's highly likely that yourfirst thought of what workshop
topic you should create isspeaking more to that person who
is on the hunt for the rightsolution.
The reality is that for most ofus, the pool of people who are
just problem aware and not yetsolution aware, or even more
likely, they are symptom aware,meaning they're aware of
(21:54):
symptoms of the problem.
They feel the pain, but theydon't know why yet.
Exactly.
So where there's some amount ofadversity to like pain point,
you know, oh, I don't want to dopain point marketing.
That is, it's like meetingpeople where they are, right?
And it's important to speak inthat way because what you're
(22:16):
gonna ultimately do is helppeople have a deeper
understanding of why they'reexperiencing that pain.
I mean, I don't know if you'veever been to therapy, there's a
lot of therapy that happens andjust understanding like what,
you know, if you're constantlygetting in an argument with your
spouse or whatever, theunderstanding where that's
coming from or understandingwhat's driving that is like
(22:37):
therapeutic in itself.
You like have this realization,oh my gosh, I'm not crazy.
And then we can move through it,like you're more able to see,
okay, here's the solution.
Here's how I can take someaction.
Same idea with workshops is ifthere's a larger pool of people
who are aware of the symptom,they're experiencing the pain,
but they're not quite sure whatthe root of the problem is.
Then you trying to speak to thesolution that's on the other
(23:00):
side of that, or even directlyto the root of the problem that
you know they're experiencing,you're losing a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
Yeah, I agree with you.
So many people are only in aplace and they're deep in it
where they just know thatthey're feeling the pain, that
there's this challenge that'scoming up, that they're pushing
up against a wall, but theydon't know why that's happening.
They don't know how to solve itfor sure.
(23:26):
So the solution doesn't makesense.
I always recommend at thisstage, like lead magnet stage,
that you think back two to threesteps before someone would be
able to work with you.
What problem are they aware ofright at that point?
Because that's the point thatyou want to get them at.
SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
Totally.
And I'm a big examples person.
So I'll even share an example tohelp get people's wheels
turning.
On the workshop that youattended, there was someone
there who has a marketingagency.
And she mentioned that one ofher frustrations right now is
that her people keep coming toher and they want strictly
social media, but she offersfull service.
And then the problem is peopleare frustrated that their social
(24:10):
media isn't getting them the ROIthat they want, but they're not
as willing to go and invest inthe full scale that makes that
allows them to see the ROI bywith email marketing and all
those other good things.
So she's like, Well, maybe Ishould host a workshop on email
marketing.
And I was like, But you saidyour people are coming to you
wanting more help with socialmedia.
They're going to bed at nightthinking about, man, I got to
(24:32):
wake up and post around socialmedia, but like I doubt it's
actually gonna call clients.
Their social media is what's topof mind for them.
So if we go host a workshop onhow to generate more client
revenue with email marketing,you've lost them.
They're not, that's not what'stop of mind for them.
But what you could do is host aworkshop on how to generate
greater ROI from your socialmedia.
And you can tell them there arethese other components of your
(24:53):
marketing strategy that need tobe dialed in in order for social
media to truly have the impacton your business's bottom line
that you're desiring.
So you address their pain point,they're sick of spiraling on
social media, spinning theirwheels on social media.
That's their immediate pain.
The root of the problem is nothaving a comprehensive marketing
strategy that allows your socialmedia to increase their bottom
line the way that what theywant.
(25:13):
You can help to them to identifythose gaps in a workshop.
SPEAKER_00 (25:17):
Yeah, that makes complete sense.
People are coming to her forthat certain things.
So that's the topic that's goingto pop out at them.
And then once they're there, youcan say, you actually need a an
ecosystem at feed.
Right.
Great.
Exactly.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And I know exactly who you'retalking about.
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
It's really the topic is soul make or break.
And it is that thing that asexperts, it can just we can spin
our wheels trying to nail thething down.
So just start by asking yourselflike, what do people really need
to have in order to be ready forthe solution that I offer?
And another way to ask thequestion is what is actually top
(26:00):
of mind for my ideal clientright now related to what I
offer and the problem that Isolve?
And how are they actuallyspeaking to themselves about
that?
And if you don't know, go ask.
SPEAKER_00 (26:10):
Yeah, that's a really good point.
A lot of people are coming to mefirst because they want more
engagement on LinkedIn.
If they want to be able to getclients from LinkedIn, but
there's a whole ecosystem thatgoes in there and there's a
whole strategy multi-pronged.
So that you're you said, hellyes, I want a paid workshop.
(26:33):
I want hot leads.
And then you need to come upwith the topic.
But no, we're all living insidethe jar, so it's hard to read
the label on the outside.
So maybe you got it.
Start workshopping andbrainstorming the steps that
they are at two to three stepsbefore they need to work with
you.
(26:53):
What do they actually need?
Or one thing that I'm alwaysdoing as I'm taking those sales
transcripts from my calls,putting it in chat GPT and
asking what's the biggestproblem that they talked about.
That's a really good place tostart if you're looking for
workshop topics.
Yeah.
And okay, so we come up with ourtopic, and it's more of like the
(27:16):
problem-aware topic, and we seta price tag on it.
What should that look like?
The price specifically.
SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
So this is gonna really vary depending on
industry and a number of otherthings.
I will say the most common pricepoints that I see working well
are for most industries,somewhere between 27 and 97.
I will say if it's strictly B2Cspace, like uh parent coach, for
example.
(27:46):
Maybe you could do something inthe nine to$17 range.
I know for my audience, which isbusiness owners, that is not
enough for them to want to showup.
Because remember, that's thereason we're putting your price
tag on this.
You can have this as a portionof your business model, but for
a low ticket, you need highvolume on the front end if you
want that to really be asignificant portion of your
business model.
So if your intention is toleverage paid workshops to
(28:08):
generate more sales of yourother offers, don't really worry
about, oh, well, how much moneyis this gonna make me to host
the workshop is just kind of icyon the cake.
The real point of putting aprice tag on it is so that
people show up and engage withcontent.
So that's the the most importantquestion to ask yourself is what
is going to be enough of a pricetag to encourage people to show
up and engage with content.
(28:30):
Usually, like I said, for myaudience, somewhere between 27
and 97 tends to work prettywell.
I've had clients, especially whoare serving larger
organizations, uh, they will gosomewhere in the around 197, 297
range.
And I've had clients go all theway up to$500 before.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:47):
The workshops that I attend are usually they're at
right around the$97 price.
It's low enough that it's like,okay.
But it's high enough that I'mlike, well, I'm I'm I gotta go.
SPEAKER_01 (29:02):
Right.
Exactly.
So um, something I like to do isI might do a$97 price point.
I did$47 tends to be my sweetspot where I don't really get
any resistance on the price.
Um, but yeah, so$97, and thenyou could do something like an
early bird discount or specialguest codes for people.
(29:24):
There's a$97 price point givesyou a lot of like room to kind
of play with.
You could have the pricegradually increasing up to 97.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:32):
That's what I did for mine.
It gradually increased to 97.
I had early bird available forlike first 10 people.
SPEAKER_01 (29:40):
And yeah, which is super smart, I'd say, for most,
you know, if your audience islike smaller business owners,
for example, I think that's agood route to go.
Um, because if you're targetingthat type of an audience or, you
know, high-level professionalsor whatever, they will tend to
sit on, I feel like 100 isenough that they might sit on
the fence to like the day beforeto see, like, well, if I'm gonna
(30:01):
pay a hundred bucks, I want tomake sure I can make it.
Yeah.
That um gradual rollout andgradual increase of the price
point, it'll encourage thoseearlier signups.
SPEAKER_00 (30:09):
Yeah, I think that did make it a lot easier because
I was getting them right awaybecause everyone wanted that
early bird ticket.
And yeah, like it was tied tothe number of tickets I sold and
like a final date.
So if it sold 10 before thedeadline, then they were just
gone.
Yep.
(30:29):
I love doing it.
Yeah, that worked really well.
Um, okay.
So we're we've priced it.
And something that I just wantto highlight is that when you
are doing these micro offers,some sort of paid lead gen
option, they also pay for yourmarketing.
So it's like a small cashinjection, but it can go to
(30:51):
advertising.
So you could get even morepeople on your list for your
workshop.
All right.
Now we do the checkout.
You can have an order bump or anupgrade available on there,
something not too crazy.
And um, you mentioned that youhave a revenue share for yours.
(31:11):
You use Thribecart for that tobe able to share that.
So that's an option.
I think League Pages also hasRev Share, Kajabi.
You need to have some sort ofplatform in order to make that
work.
SPEAKER_01 (31:27):
Well, and you there is a way to do it simply if you
don't have any robust tech.
I have clients come to me who,well, for example, I had a
client come to me in July whohad never taken a credit card
payment in her business in 18years.
Everything's been like, isn'tthat crazy?
And within three weeks, she hadher paid workshop up and running
(31:48):
and was charging$300.
And I think she had like five orsix people registered for her
first one.
So um, you can do this reallylow tech as well.
Pretty much any checkoutplatform is gonna allow you to
insert a code.
And so if you are doing sometype of promo partnership with
people, you could give them acode that's like Sarah 50 or
whatever for them to share withtheir people.
(32:08):
And then anytime someone usesthat code, you know their
people, now you would obviouslybe wanting to offer like some
type of a discount.
So if you did something likeyour people get 10% off, and
then I'm gonna send you 20% ofthe final price or whatever.
Then anytime someone uses thatcode, you just keep track of it.
And yes, there would need to bemanual stuff done, but that's a
(32:29):
workaround for a low techoption.
SPEAKER_00 (32:31):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
That could work.
Okay.
So we have the checkout and thenthe day of.
We're doing our workshop.
How long would you recommend ourworkshops be when they're paid?
SPEAKER_01 (32:46):
So I know you didn't ask me where I want to send
people at the end, but I willjust say here I have a full like
quiz you can just take that willtell you the recommended
workshop style for you atmyworkshopgameplan.com because
it really depends on again yourgoals, your audience, your all
the things.
Um right now, what I see workingreally well is a workshop in the
(33:10):
90-minute to two hour range.
Now there's a time to place forworkshops that are longer, like
in three to four hour range.
I will say that's best when youhave a very warm audience of
people who and you're sellingsomething higher ticket on the
back end.
I do not think it makes a ton ofsense to host a four-hour
workshop to sell a$30membership.
(33:31):
Um, so match something thatmatches the experience of what
you're selling people on on theother side.
And then there's also, you know,a time and a place for a
45-minute workshop.
What I find is most of myclients have really great
success coming in and doingsomething in the 90-minute to
two hour range.
If they try to do somethingsignificantly shorter, what they
(33:51):
end up finding is like it was,they were trying to cram a lot
in.
Um, and a lot of times there'ssome resistance to doing
something a bit longer if theydon't have the audience built up
that's really hungry for thattype of an experience right out
of the gates.
SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
Yeah.
And in my experience, wheneverI'm signed up for a workshop and
it's too long, I'm like, why didI sign up?
SPEAKER_01 (34:15):
Yeah.
If you are gonna do somethingthat is a lot longer, I almost
treat it as like a mini retreatwhere you're gonna open up
breakout rooms.
There's opportunities forconnection.
Um, I always encourage to haveinteraction built in.
And you've seen you've been tomy workshops in the past.
You know, I build in time forinteraction.
So there is time and space forthat in the 90-minute to two
hour range.
(34:36):
But if that's the crux of whatyou're doing is creating a
really deeply interactiveexperience where there's gonna
be a very specific outcome.
There, you always want aspecific output come, but you
know, more implementation,things like that.
Then maybe you want to exploresomething in the three to
four-hour range, but don't justmake it that long.
It's not a value add to say thatit's a four-hour thing unless
(34:56):
the experience itself actuallyrequires four hours.
SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
100% agree.
SPEAKER_01 (35:01):
And build in breaks.
If you're gonna do it that long,you need to have a solid break
in the middle.
Yeah.
Don't care in this at the zoomscreen for four hours straight.
SPEAKER_00 (35:09):
The only way I'm going to a four-hour workshop is
if I am completing something bythe end of it that I really
needed to complete.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (35:18):
Yep, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (35:19):
All right.
So we have that down.
Now the last piece is thepitching, because the ultimate
goal of a paid workshop is toget someone to move into our
signature offer or just a biggeroffer.
So, how do you do that withoutit?
SPEAKER_01 (35:35):
Yeah, as I like to say, pitch without sweaty palms.
So, very simply, and you know,this is something I teach my
clients in a much more umstructured way, but very simply,
I love to use the pitch as ateaching tool.
So, in my craft framework, whichif you go get the workshop game
plan, you will learn my craftframework.
(35:56):
I break it down in the resultsvideos.
And the F in the craft frameworkstands for full transformation.
That's when the pitch happens.
And what I recommend doing inmost instances is teaching the
full transformation, the fullpicture of what someone needs to
move through or experience ornavigate in order to have the
(36:18):
full 100% transformation that'son the other side of where they
came in, right?
So, in that example I gaveearlier about social media,
right?
The full transformation is whereit's going to be time to really
clarify what that fullcomprehensive marketing system
looks like, the full marketingstrategy looks like that where
all the gaps are now closed sothat social media is truly those
(36:41):
efforts are optimized and arecreating the maximum ROI
possible because those gaps arenow closed.
What does that actually looklike?
Do you have a framework that youcould reveal that is
representative of what peoplewould experience or navigate
through or implement throughyour paid offer that you're
selling in the workplace?
So that giving that clarity iskindness and it is helpful for
(37:01):
people.
It gives people a deeper senseof direction, whether or not
they're actually going to takethat next step into your paid
offer, but many will once theyhave that sense of clarity.
SPEAKER_00 (37:11):
Okay.
So the pitching without sweatypalms is revealing the framework
that would get them the fulltransformation that you're
teaching in that workshop.
SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
And that's the mindset of it.
I mean, it goes a bit deeper,but ultimately it's about
yourself that we want to givepeople understanding that here's
the full picture of what youactually need.
And we don't want to try toforce all of that in a two-hour
setting.
It's not gonna work.
Your people are gonna feel likeyou either fire hose them with
(37:46):
information, they're gonna sensethat desire to overgive, which
so many of my amazing clientshave.
And I'm not surprised because Ihave it too.
It's but it is uh of service.
So for you just having thatmindset that this is of service
for me to really show peoplewhat all is truly required here
and how they can experiencegetting that by working with me
(38:08):
in another way.
SPEAKER_00 (38:09):
That is funny that you mention that in service,
because I just released episode109, and in it we're talking
about that like feminine softsales where it feels icky coming
at it from like a bro salesperspective, where for us it's
all about service and helpingand just guiding someone to a
(38:33):
solution.
And if you choose me, that'sawesome.
I have two dogs hanging outunderneath my desk right now.
Let's see what wires they pullout.
He just busted through the doorand came in under my desk.
SPEAKER_02 (38:46):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (38:47):
Life, life and business.
SPEAKER_01 (38:48):
Uh they move it along no matter what.
Dogs and all truly.
SPEAKER_00 (38:53):
Yeah, my kids are home from school today and
they're both rollerblading onthe main floor.
I can hear them.
SPEAKER_01 (38:59):
That sounds like a fun day.
SPEAKER_00 (39:02):
Life and business all over again.
Guys, totally.
All right.
So thank you so much for goingover your paid workshop
strategy.
Now, can you tell us a littlebit more about your workshop
game plan?
SPEAKER_01 (39:18):
Yeah, totally.
So this is a really greatstarting point.
If you're thinking I might wantto host a paid workshop, let me
just see what this could evenlook like for me.
Go ahead and use the workshopgame plan generator at
myworkshopgameplan.com.
I'm gonna ask you, like, I don'tknow, 10 questions, something
like that.
Because as we talked aboutbefore, everything I do is very
meant to be personalized to you.
(39:39):
Everything is rooted in what'sgonna work for you given your
personality, your preferences,your strengths, your business
circumstances, your goals, allthose things are not gonna be
the same as the next person.
So this is kind of that firststep as to getting some type of
personalized recommendations asit relates to paid workshops.
So you're gonna answer thosequestions.
What I'm gonna do at the end isshare with you.
Hey, here's the type, the formatof workshop that could work well
(40:01):
for you.
Here's kind of the time framerange you could be looking at.
Here's a sample agenda of howthat could flow, leveraging my
craft framework.
And then some simple pricing andpromotion recommendations just
based on the type of workshopthat you get on the back end.
And then I email you all thedifferent types, regardless of
or all the different formats,depend regardless of what you
(40:23):
bought, so that you can see theother options.
You don't have to take it 15times trying to hack this some
and get different results.
You could just see them all.
I'm not trying to like hideanything from you.
SPEAKER_00 (40:33):
I would 100% immediately went to all the ones
that I didn't get.
I'm like, sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:38):
Yeah, totally.
Because it's it just we startsomewhere and then you can
tailor the experience to what itis you want it to be.
And then of course I haveresources to to support in
whatever way people are wantingon the back end of that as well.
Awesome.
And where can they find youonline?
I'm mostly over on Instagram.
(40:58):
As you know, I've been likedipping my table in the LinkedIn
world a little bit here andthere.
Um, so I'm mainly on Instagram,I'm at ASK Anne Ray Rose.
And then over on LinkedIn, I'mjust Anne Ray Rose, and I am
connecting over there more andmore.
So you can find me there.
SPEAKER_00 (41:17):
I will have all those links in the show notes.
Thanks again.
SPEAKER_01 (41:22):
This was so fun.
I love paid workshops.
I love that you are in theprocess of bringing one to life.
I'm so excited to see how itturns out.
SPEAKER_00 (41:29):
Yeah, that's me too.
Thank you.
I hope you enjoyed this episodewith Anne-Marie Rose.
She gave us some amazinginsights on how to launch paid
micro offers, or for her, it'salways paid workshops, and turn
those prospects into clients.
(41:51):
You love all things tinymarketing.
Head down to the show notes pageand sign up for the wait list to
join the Tiny Marketing Club,where you get to work one-on-one
with me with trainings,feedback, and pop-up coaching
that will help you scale yourmarketing as a B2B service
(42:13):
business.
So I'll see you over in theclub.
This is a podcast that helps B2B service
businesses do more with less.
Learn lean, actionable, organicmarketing strategies you can
implement today.
No fluff, just powerful growthtactics at work.
Ready to scale smarter?
Hit that subscribe button andstart growing your business with
Tiny Marketing.
(01:58):
Hello and welcome back to TinyMarketing.
I'm Sarah Noelblock, and this isepisode 165.
Since it is a holiday weekend, Iam sharing my most popular
episode as of this week.
It's an underground hit.
It's a hidden gem.
I had no idea that it wasranking so well until I looked
(02:20):
at my stats.
So I thought this is the perfectopportunity to bring it to new
people who haven't heard thisepisode before.
But it is teaching a strategythat has worked really, really
well for me.
And I actually learned it fromher.
So today's episode featuresexpert guest Anne-Marie Rose,
(02:45):
who teaches us how to leveragepaid workshops to fill our
larger offers.
She is a scalability expert.
And when I became booked outusing the strategies that I
teach you inside of the TinyMarketing Club, I went to Anne
Marie Rose.
(03:06):
And I was like, what do I donow?
What now?
I am at capacity.
I cannot take on any moreclients.
What do I do?
So I worked with her to come upwith a series of ideas that I
could leverage to build morescalable offers.
(03:26):
And to fill those, sherecommended paid workshops.
And paid workshops have nowbecome one of my core offers,
not only because it's morescalable, but also because it
gives you a taste of what it'slike to work with me.
It mirrors the experience insideof the Tiny Marketing Club.
(03:50):
And in my experience at least,paid workshops have been,
they've proven that they get alot more live participants than
free events because you haveone, you've invested.
You've invested in this timethat you're going to spend with
me.
(04:10):
So you want to get the most fromit.
So, you know, while my freetrainings might have been
awesome, it didn't really matterbecause they were free.
There wasn't a value attached toit.
But with my paid workshops, youwant to make sure that you're
getting the value that youinvested into it.
(04:30):
So you're going to attend,you're going to participate,
you're going to get as much asyou can from that experience as
possible.
And it makes complete sense.
I'm exactly the same way.
But let me tell you a statthat's kind of gonna blow your
mind.
So everybody's experience isdifferent, but with me, my free
(04:54):
events get about a 50% liveshow-up rate.
While my paid events, which aremore intensive, more time, but
you get some outcome at the endof it, they get a 95% show-up
rate live, which is huge.
(05:15):
So I hope that cues up thisepisode well, where Anne Marie
is going to teach you how toleverage paid workshops to fill
your high-ticket offers.
Enjoy.
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
I'm Anne-Marie Rose.
I'm an online business scalingstrategist.
And for nearly a decade now,I've been helping online
business owners to leveragetheir zone of genius and to do
so in a way that supports notonly the vision that they have
for the impact that they want tohave on the world, but in a way
that supports their season oflife.
I've been doing that in variousways over the years from
marketing things that Sarahknows very well, and then has
(05:51):
evolved over time to be morecomprehensive business strategy
consulting for those businessowners who are service-based
business owners and they want tocreate more scalability so that
they can enjoy more freedom fortheir life, impact more people,
and of course enjoy more revenuein the process.
One of the ways I love helpingmy clients to scale their sales
process is with paid workshops,which is why I'm super excited
to be here today.
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
I am excited to talk about this.
And for anybody listening rightnow, I have worked with Anne
Marie Rose.
It she helped me develop theLean Marketing Accelerator and
the Tiny Marketing Club.
So her genius got into that.
So let's get into workshops.
And specifically paid workshops.
(06:33):
Okay, so let me preempt this.
I have done workshops and I havedone master classes a bajillion
times, but for the first timeever, I'm doing a paid one.
And you inspired that.
So can you tell me whyspecifically paid workshops work
well for generating hot leads?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
Well, very simply, I'll give you the simple answer.
We can have a deeperconversation about it.
But when people pay, they payattention.
When they pay attention, theyshow up and they get results.
When they get results, theybuild trust.
When they build trust, they buyand they buy more.
Yeah.
Really the path, right?
And that it ultimately comesdown to free getting lost very
(07:16):
easily, especially with as noisyas things are and as short as
our attention spans have become,free just simply gets lost.
And people don't get that resultfrom the free thing.
Therefore, they don't build thetrust in the same way.
SPEAKER_00 (07:29):
Fact, yes.
I have so many free thingssitting in my inbox that are
like, they're on on red justbecause I'm like, I know I want
to go back to that, but Ihaven't had a chance yet.
But anytime I pay for something,I'm immediately in there.
And I paid for your workshopworkshop, where you touched on
the basis of that.
(07:50):
Before we hit record today, Isaid I was really apprehensive
about charging for a workshop.
And you said pretty mucheverybody is.
So you said when they pay, theypay attention.
I agree with you there.
I'm more willing to show up forthat.
But how do you fill these paidengagements when there are so
many free ones available?
SPEAKER_01 (08:14):
Well, first, I'll just use myself as an example.
There's a mindset piece and astrategy piece to this here,
right?
One is trusting that it's goingto fill.
That's what effectively what youdid.
You didn't do anything reallydifferently in your marketing.
You were just like, I trust thatdoing things this way is going
to work.
And the reason it does work isbecause buyers have caught onto
their own BS, basically.
(08:34):
And I know myself personally,not everybody's this way.
But if I sign up for free, I'mprobably not going to use it.
But if I pay for it, I am.
So I almost see it as a serviceto say, okay, let me put a price
tag on this so you'll actuallyget value from it rather than it
just becoming another unreadmessage in your inbox,
cluttering up your life, yourbrand space.
(08:54):
We don't need that, right?
So it's added value to put evena small price tag there.
So trusting that people willjump in is the first step.
And then of course, if you areworking, you know, you have a
smaller audience size, whatever.
I've had clients with literallyno social media or email
following leverage this sameapproach, just with direct
(09:16):
outreach to some people who theythought could be a fit for it
and sell out a$297 workshop intwo weeks' time.
So yeah, it's about looking atwhere are your people.
And if you're breaking into abrand new audience, there's lots
of different ways that you couldgo about doing things like a JV
partnership or leveragingpromotion partners.
There's lots of differentoptions out there to call people
(09:38):
into your world.
So it's there's the reach piece,yes, but ultimately to put a
price tag on it and trust peoplewill sign up comes down to
literally trust.
SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
Yeah.
Let's get into some of thosestrategies that people can do to
fill them.
I can tell you what I did for mymost recent one.
And that was partnerships.
I shared it with people that Iknew had the audience that would
want to go to it.
And um, in value content, Iwould add in a PS on the
(11:10):
workshop and explain it.
I did podcast guesting where Iwould talk about it.
I did podcast theories aboutthose topics, email, obviously,
tons of email.
But I think the biggest driverwas the value content leading to
the culmination of you know, wecan actually act on this in this
(11:32):
workshop.
That led to the biggest fight.
Anytime I did that, I was like,oh, there's some more.
Hey there, amazing founders.
Ready to take your business tothe next level?
Join our Gateway Offer Challengeand watch your sales soar.
In this challenge, you'll getmany Gateway Offer trainings to
(11:55):
perfect your offers.
Learn how to structure yourdocumentation so it sells for
you, create buzz around youroffer, and identify eager
clients with our sales training.
Plus, get exclusive outreachtemplates that take the
guesswork out of prospecting.
And because selling should befun, we've gamified this
challenge.
Who can sell the most gatewayoffers?
(12:16):
And let's not forget, you'llalso learn how to effortlessly
upsell to your signature offer.
Ready to level up?
Join the gateway offer challengetoday.
Your business will thank you.
Go to challenge.saranoelblock.com.
That is C H A L L E N G E dotS-A-R-A-H-N-O E L B L O C K dot
(12:42):
com.
SPEAKER_01 (12:47):
Yep, totally.
Um, and I mean I take a really,really lean approach.
I don't have a podcast.
Um, I don't do like a ton ofsocial media content.
So I take a really leanapproach.
Um, almost three years ago whenI did my very first paid
workshop, I did it with apromotion partner who I knew her
audience.
I already had a very, very smalllist, very, very small social
(13:08):
media following.
When I say very small, likevery, very small.
I know small is incrediblyrelative here, but we're talking
like at that point around athousand, maybe 1,500 people.
And I knew she had an audiencethat trusted her.
And we had complimentary subjectmatter that we that we dealt
with.
So she was not another businessstrategist or business coach per
se, but she dealt with more ofthe mindset side of things.
(13:29):
And so we hosted a joint ventureworkshop, and there were a lot
of her people that came to that.
And it was great.
We just, you know, did a revenueshare for that, and it worked
out really beautifully.
And that took a lot of the liftoff me to, I didn't really do a
ton to promote that one onsocial media at all.
I think I sent a few emails, butI knew that her audience was
(13:50):
gonna be hot for this.
And now I'm at a point where Istill have a very small but
mighty audience and it's growinga little bit over time.
And so I really just promote itvia social media.
I send some emails, I sendanywhere between five and 10,
depending on honestly, like whatI have capacity for.
(14:10):
Cause I write all my own emails.
And then my favorite thing to dois leverage promotion partners,
and I usually keep that prettylean as well.
Like we haven't at least up tothis point done it where we've
had like 10.
There's usually like one or twowho I know pretty well.
SPEAKER_00 (14:23):
Yeah, 10 would be a lot to handle.
SPEAKER_01 (14:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So and there's there's so manydifferent things you can do.
I think what it comes down tobecause you're a marketer at the
end of the day, and like this iswhat you do day in and day out.
And so if someone's listeningwho maybe isn't like marketing
hasn't become the consistentthing that you want it to be for
(14:47):
yourself and for your business.
Well, first of all, work withSarah, but um the you can do
this with really, really lightlift promo.
Like I said, I've had clients dothis with they don't have that
audience they're trying to reachwith their workshop, they have
no one in their social mediafollowing who falls into that
category.
So it can work.
It's just about having apersonalized approach that's
(15:09):
gonna work for you.
SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
Yeah.
And with that, I want to touchon creating interest lists for
events like this.
And you can do it low lift withsocial media.
Like polls are still pushed outpretty well in most algorithms,
whatever social media channelyou like.
So if you're creating some sortof social media post with a poll
(15:31):
on it, anybody who says they'reinterested in the topic that
you're doing your workshop on,you could send them a DM and
invite them to that workshop.
Create little interest lists allover the place that is like
there's not a lot of pressure onit.
It's like a mini little handraise with it.
SPEAKER_01 (15:49):
Yes, I love a good, good mini hand raise moment.
SPEAKER_00 (15:52):
Yeah.
And you can do it too in youremail, where if you're talking
about a topic related to yourworkshop, you can set up a link
action where it'll segment ifthey click on a certain link.
Like let's say you were a guestin a podcast and you happen to
be talking about paid workshops.
If they click on that, it wouldsegment them to interested in
(16:12):
paid workshops.
And that's a highly engagedinterest list.
Their little mini handraisehappened.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
Totally.
So yeah, there's all sorts ofthings you can do, and you can
get super savvy with it.
You can keep things reallysimple.
Um, there's just so manydifferent ways you can go about
it.
It just I like I said, I'm justbig on what's gonna work for you
for your seasonal life right nowand for just the way your brain
works.
SPEAKER_00 (16:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I really like that you alwayswhen you're working with
someone, it's always like, well,how much time do you have in
your life and what do you wantit to look like?
And then kind of reverseengineering from there.
SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
One, because it doesn't, it's like there's no
point in trying to fit a roundpeg in a square hole.
Yes.
It's just a recipe for burnoutand frustration.
SPEAKER_00 (16:58):
Um, as a manifesting generator, I am constantly
talking about how I always feellike I'm this square peg trying
to fit in a round hole and it'snever gonna happen.
It just feels like friction.
SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
So that's a really great thingabout paid workshops for
manifesting generators who wantto try different things and
explore different topics.
Paid workshops are great becauseit's not like you have to commit
to a whole new year-long offeror big, you know, new service
that you're providing around aparticular topic.
You can just host a paidworkshop.
And if there's enough interestin that paid workshop topic, you
(17:33):
can say, hmm, well, should thisbe a deeper offer than I think?
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
That's exactly how I use them.
I use my free master classesthat way too.
But that's exactly what I do.
I use it as a way to test anoffer and it's like a little
mini beta, and then maybe I'llexpand it to a bigger beta where
I'll turn that workshop into amini course and see the interest
there.
And then maybe I'll expand itfrom there.
(17:57):
If it's but it's like littletesting grounds that you can do
where you're still getting paid,but you're seeing if the offer
has legs.
SPEAKER_01 (18:06):
Exactly.
I have a client, her specialtyis in marketing data.
She just hosted a workshop lastweek all about leveraging your
data to have the best, mostsuccessful Black Friday
promotion period possible.
And she realized like how muchshe loves being able to go into
the implementation side ofthings, but just that a one to
two hour container isn't thebest container for that.
(18:30):
And um, so what she's likelygoing to be doing is turning her
like dream case workshopexperience into a group VIP day
offer.
And then scaling way back onwhat the workshop itself
actually is, less on theimplementation, more on the
awareness side of things.
And that works well for hersubject matter because she is
working with a lot of clientswho aren't, they're not like are
(18:54):
already deeply steeped in thesubject matter she covers.
So she realized through doingthe workshop one way that this
is actually a great, she's gonnastreamline out the experience to
have a more simplified workshopthat leads to a more full-scale,
comprehensive offer.
So much opportunity can comefrom hosting a paid workshop
(19:15):
that people just can't evenanticipate.
I couldn't put it all on a salespage for a program.
Every client that comes in showsup and goes through the process
of putting a scalable systemtogether around paid workshops
to sell more of what they offerends up on the other side with
not only more sales, but alsosome new initiative going on in
their business that theywouldn't have been able to
(19:36):
arrive at otherwise, which isreally cool to see.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
That client just made me think of something you
can also have, like offerstaircase with that.
If you have a paid workshop, youcan have a little order bump or
an upgrade that's available atthe checkout.
You usually have one of thosewhere you can get a boxer week
along it.
So with that one, it could be uha group implementation day as an
(20:04):
upgrade.
And then the next one up couldbe the offer that you ultimately
want to sell, whatever yoursignature offer is.
Yep.
Okay, let's see.
We went off topic.
SPEAKER_01 (20:19):
Still on the topic of paid workshops, but yeah, I
love being able to just take itwhere the like let things flow
in whatever way we think isgonna be valuable for you and I
in the audience.
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
Like I mean, I think all of this will be valuable.
I just want to make sure I hitall of the little learning
points that you want to hit.
So one of the things that youmentioned is there's one thing
that'll make or break your ROI.
And what is that?
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Very simply, your workshop topic.
This is something I've beenwanting to be like just so blunt
about on social media.
Most people get this wrong.
Like, I don't care.
My clients are so freakingsmart, it is just hard to do for
yourself.
It's hard to see for yourself.
Like, I'm an expert at this, andmy own workshop topics
definitely have room to improvebecause we're so freaking close
to it.
Yeah, we're so close to it thatwe tend to and create, choose
(21:12):
workshop topics that's forsomeone who's been spending day
in and day out in our brain andunderstands everything we
understand.
And the reality is, yes, thereare some people in your world
most likely who all know whattheir problem is and they're on
the hunt for a solution.
And they're accurate about whatthe problem is, and they're on
the hunt for a solution.
(21:34):
So it's highly likely that yourfirst thought of what workshop
topic you should create isspeaking more to that person who
is on the hunt for the rightsolution.
The reality is that for most ofus, the pool of people who are
just problem aware and not yetsolution aware, or even more
likely, they are symptom aware,meaning they're aware of
(21:54):
symptoms of the problem.
They feel the pain, but theydon't know why yet.
Exactly.
So where there's some amount ofadversity to like pain point,
you know, oh, I don't want to dopain point marketing.
That is, it's like meetingpeople where they are, right?
And it's important to speak inthat way because what you're
(22:16):
gonna ultimately do is helppeople have a deeper
understanding of why they'reexperiencing that pain.
I mean, I don't know if you'veever been to therapy, there's a
lot of therapy that happens andjust understanding like what,
you know, if you're constantlygetting in an argument with your
spouse or whatever, theunderstanding where that's
coming from or understandingwhat's driving that is like
(22:37):
therapeutic in itself.
You like have this realization,oh my gosh, I'm not crazy.
And then we can move through it,like you're more able to see,
okay, here's the solution.
Here's how I can take someaction.
Same idea with workshops is ifthere's a larger pool of people
who are aware of the symptom,they're experiencing the pain,
but they're not quite sure whatthe root of the problem is.
Then you trying to speak to thesolution that's on the other
(23:00):
side of that, or even directlyto the root of the problem that
you know they're experiencing,you're losing a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
Yeah, I agree with you.
So many people are only in aplace and they're deep in it
where they just know thatthey're feeling the pain, that
there's this challenge that'scoming up, that they're pushing
up against a wall, but theydon't know why that's happening.
They don't know how to solve itfor sure.
(23:26):
So the solution doesn't makesense.
I always recommend at thisstage, like lead magnet stage,
that you think back two to threesteps before someone would be
able to work with you.
What problem are they aware ofright at that point?
Because that's the point thatyou want to get them at.
SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
Totally.
And I'm a big examples person.
So I'll even share an example tohelp get people's wheels
turning.
On the workshop that youattended, there was someone
there who has a marketingagency.
And she mentioned that one ofher frustrations right now is
that her people keep coming toher and they want strictly
social media, but she offersfull service.
And then the problem is peopleare frustrated that their social
(24:10):
media isn't getting them the ROIthat they want, but they're not
as willing to go and invest inthe full scale that makes that
allows them to see the ROI bywith email marketing and all
those other good things.
So she's like, Well, maybe Ishould host a workshop on email
marketing.
And I was like, But you saidyour people are coming to you
wanting more help with socialmedia.
They're going to bed at nightthinking about, man, I got to
(24:32):
wake up and post around socialmedia, but like I doubt it's
actually gonna call clients.
Their social media is what's topof mind for them.
So if we go host a workshop onhow to generate more client
revenue with email marketing,you've lost them.
They're not, that's not what'stop of mind for them.
But what you could do is host aworkshop on how to generate
greater ROI from your socialmedia.
And you can tell them there arethese other components of your
(24:53):
marketing strategy that need tobe dialed in in order for social
media to truly have the impacton your business's bottom line
that you're desiring.
So you address their pain point,they're sick of spiraling on
social media, spinning theirwheels on social media.
That's their immediate pain.
The root of the problem is nothaving a comprehensive marketing
strategy that allows your socialmedia to increase their bottom
line the way that what theywant.
(25:13):
You can help to them to identifythose gaps in a workshop.
SPEAKER_00 (25:17):
Yeah, that makes complete sense.
People are coming to her forthat certain things.
So that's the topic that's goingto pop out at them.
And then once they're there, youcan say, you actually need a an
ecosystem at feed.
Right.
Great.
Exactly.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And I know exactly who you'retalking about.
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
It's really the topic is soul make or break.
And it is that thing that asexperts, it can just we can spin
our wheels trying to nail thething down.
So just start by asking yourselflike, what do people really need
to have in order to be ready forthe solution that I offer?
And another way to ask thequestion is what is actually top
(26:00):
of mind for my ideal clientright now related to what I
offer and the problem that Isolve?
And how are they actuallyspeaking to themselves about
that?
And if you don't know, go ask.
SPEAKER_00 (26:10):
Yeah, that's a really good point.
A lot of people are coming to mefirst because they want more
engagement on LinkedIn.
If they want to be able to getclients from LinkedIn, but
there's a whole ecosystem thatgoes in there and there's a
whole strategy multi-pronged.
So that you're you said, hellyes, I want a paid workshop.
(26:33):
I want hot leads.
And then you need to come upwith the topic.
But no, we're all living insidethe jar, so it's hard to read
the label on the outside.
So maybe you got it.
Start workshopping andbrainstorming the steps that
they are at two to three stepsbefore they need to work with
you.
(26:53):
What do they actually need?
Or one thing that I'm alwaysdoing as I'm taking those sales
transcripts from my calls,putting it in chat GPT and
asking what's the biggestproblem that they talked about.
That's a really good place tostart if you're looking for
workshop topics.
Yeah.
And okay, so we come up with ourtopic, and it's more of like the
(27:16):
problem-aware topic, and we seta price tag on it.
What should that look like?
The price specifically.
SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
So this is gonna really vary depending on
industry and a number of otherthings.
I will say the most common pricepoints that I see working well
are for most industries,somewhere between 27 and 97.
I will say if it's strictly B2Cspace, like uh parent coach, for
example.
(27:46):
Maybe you could do something inthe nine to$17 range.
I know for my audience, which isbusiness owners, that is not
enough for them to want to showup.
Because remember, that's thereason we're putting your price
tag on this.
You can have this as a portionof your business model, but for
a low ticket, you need highvolume on the front end if you
want that to really be asignificant portion of your
business model.
So if your intention is toleverage paid workshops to
(28:08):
generate more sales of yourother offers, don't really worry
about, oh, well, how much moneyis this gonna make me to host
the workshop is just kind of icyon the cake.
The real point of putting aprice tag on it is so that
people show up and engage withcontent.
So that's the the most importantquestion to ask yourself is what
is going to be enough of a pricetag to encourage people to show
up and engage with content.
(28:30):
Usually, like I said, for myaudience, somewhere between 27
and 97 tends to work prettywell.
I've had clients, especially whoare serving larger
organizations, uh, they will gosomewhere in the around 197, 297
range.
And I've had clients go all theway up to$500 before.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:47):
The workshops that I attend are usually they're at
right around the$97 price.
It's low enough that it's like,okay.
But it's high enough that I'mlike, well, I'm I'm I gotta go.
SPEAKER_01 (29:02):
Right.
Exactly.
So um, something I like to do isI might do a$97 price point.
I did$47 tends to be my sweetspot where I don't really get
any resistance on the price.
Um, but yeah, so$97, and thenyou could do something like an
early bird discount or specialguest codes for people.
(29:24):
There's a$97 price point givesyou a lot of like room to kind
of play with.
You could have the pricegradually increasing up to 97.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:32):
That's what I did for mine.
It gradually increased to 97.
I had early bird available forlike first 10 people.
SPEAKER_01 (29:40):
And yeah, which is super smart, I'd say, for most,
you know, if your audience islike smaller business owners,
for example, I think that's agood route to go.
Um, because if you're targetingthat type of an audience or, you
know, high-level professionalsor whatever, they will tend to
sit on, I feel like 100 isenough that they might sit on
the fence to like the day beforeto see, like, well, if I'm gonna
(30:01):
pay a hundred bucks, I want tomake sure I can make it.
Yeah.
That um gradual rollout andgradual increase of the price
point, it'll encourage thoseearlier signups.
SPEAKER_00 (30:09):
Yeah, I think that did make it a lot easier because
I was getting them right awaybecause everyone wanted that
early bird ticket.
And yeah, like it was tied tothe number of tickets I sold and
like a final date.
So if it sold 10 before thedeadline, then they were just
gone.
Yep.
(30:29):
I love doing it.
Yeah, that worked really well.
Um, okay.
So we're we've priced it.
And something that I just wantto highlight is that when you
are doing these micro offers,some sort of paid lead gen
option, they also pay for yourmarketing.
So it's like a small cashinjection, but it can go to
(30:51):
advertising.
So you could get even morepeople on your list for your
workshop.
All right.
Now we do the checkout.
You can have an order bump or anupgrade available on there,
something not too crazy.
And um, you mentioned that youhave a revenue share for yours.
(31:11):
You use Thribecart for that tobe able to share that.
So that's an option.
I think League Pages also hasRev Share, Kajabi.
You need to have some sort ofplatform in order to make that
work.
SPEAKER_01 (31:27):
Well, and you there is a way to do it simply if you
don't have any robust tech.
I have clients come to me who,well, for example, I had a
client come to me in July whohad never taken a credit card
payment in her business in 18years.
Everything's been like, isn'tthat crazy?
And within three weeks, she hadher paid workshop up and running
(31:48):
and was charging$300.
And I think she had like five orsix people registered for her
first one.
So um, you can do this reallylow tech as well.
Pretty much any checkoutplatform is gonna allow you to
insert a code.
And so if you are doing sometype of promo partnership with
people, you could give them acode that's like Sarah 50 or
whatever for them to share withtheir people.
(32:08):
And then anytime someone usesthat code, you know their
people, now you would obviouslybe wanting to offer like some
type of a discount.
So if you did something likeyour people get 10% off, and
then I'm gonna send you 20% ofthe final price or whatever.
Then anytime someone uses thatcode, you just keep track of it.
And yes, there would need to bemanual stuff done, but that's a
(32:29):
workaround for a low techoption.
SPEAKER_00 (32:31):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
That could work.
Okay.
So we have the checkout and thenthe day of.
We're doing our workshop.
How long would you recommend ourworkshops be when they're paid?
SPEAKER_01 (32:46):
So I know you didn't ask me where I want to send
people at the end, but I willjust say here I have a full like
quiz you can just take that willtell you the recommended
workshop style for you atmyworkshopgameplan.com because
it really depends on again yourgoals, your audience, your all
the things.
Um right now, what I see workingreally well is a workshop in the
(33:10):
90-minute to two hour range.
Now there's a time to place forworkshops that are longer, like
in three to four hour range.
I will say that's best when youhave a very warm audience of
people who and you're sellingsomething higher ticket on the
back end.
I do not think it makes a ton ofsense to host a four-hour
workshop to sell a$30membership.
(33:31):
Um, so match something thatmatches the experience of what
you're selling people on on theother side.
And then there's also, you know,a time and a place for a
45-minute workshop.
What I find is most of myclients have really great
success coming in and doingsomething in the 90-minute to
two hour range.
If they try to do somethingsignificantly shorter, what they
(33:51):
end up finding is like it was,they were trying to cram a lot
in.
Um, and a lot of times there'ssome resistance to doing
something a bit longer if theydon't have the audience built up
that's really hungry for thattype of an experience right out
of the gates.
SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
Yeah.
And in my experience, wheneverI'm signed up for a workshop and
it's too long, I'm like, why didI sign up?
SPEAKER_01 (34:15):
Yeah.
If you are gonna do somethingthat is a lot longer, I almost
treat it as like a mini retreatwhere you're gonna open up
breakout rooms.
There's opportunities forconnection.
Um, I always encourage to haveinteraction built in.
And you've seen you've been tomy workshops in the past.
You know, I build in time forinteraction.
So there is time and space forthat in the 90-minute to two
hour range.
(34:36):
But if that's the crux of whatyou're doing is creating a
really deeply interactiveexperience where there's gonna
be a very specific outcome.
There, you always want aspecific output come, but you
know, more implementation,things like that.
Then maybe you want to exploresomething in the three to
four-hour range, but don't justmake it that long.
It's not a value add to say thatit's a four-hour thing unless
(34:56):
the experience itself actuallyrequires four hours.
SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
100% agree.
SPEAKER_01 (35:01):
And build in breaks.
If you're gonna do it that long,you need to have a solid break
in the middle.
Yeah.
Don't care in this at the zoomscreen for four hours straight.
SPEAKER_00 (35:09):
The only way I'm going to a four-hour workshop is
if I am completing something bythe end of it that I really
needed to complete.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (35:18):
Yep, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (35:19):
All right.
So we have that down.
Now the last piece is thepitching, because the ultimate
goal of a paid workshop is toget someone to move into our
signature offer or just a biggeroffer.
So, how do you do that withoutit?
SPEAKER_01 (35:35):
Yeah, as I like to say, pitch without sweaty palms.
So, very simply, and you know,this is something I teach my
clients in a much more umstructured way, but very simply,
I love to use the pitch as ateaching tool.
So, in my craft framework, whichif you go get the workshop game
plan, you will learn my craftframework.
(35:56):
I break it down in the resultsvideos.
And the F in the craft frameworkstands for full transformation.
That's when the pitch happens.
And what I recommend doing inmost instances is teaching the
full transformation, the fullpicture of what someone needs to
move through or experience ornavigate in order to have the
(36:18):
full 100% transformation that'son the other side of where they
came in, right?
So, in that example I gaveearlier about social media,
right?
The full transformation is whereit's going to be time to really
clarify what that fullcomprehensive marketing system
looks like, the full marketingstrategy looks like that where
all the gaps are now closed sothat social media is truly those
(36:41):
efforts are optimized and arecreating the maximum ROI
possible because those gaps arenow closed.
What does that actually looklike?
Do you have a framework that youcould reveal that is
representative of what peoplewould experience or navigate
through or implement throughyour paid offer that you're
selling in the workplace?
So that giving that clarity iskindness and it is helpful for
(37:01):
people.
It gives people a deeper senseof direction, whether or not
they're actually going to takethat next step into your paid
offer, but many will once theyhave that sense of clarity.
SPEAKER_00 (37:11):
Okay.
So the pitching without sweatypalms is revealing the framework
that would get them the fulltransformation that you're
teaching in that workshop.
SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
And that's the mindset of it.
I mean, it goes a bit deeper,but ultimately it's about
yourself that we want to givepeople understanding that here's
the full picture of what youactually need.
And we don't want to try toforce all of that in a two-hour
setting.
It's not gonna work.
Your people are gonna feel likeyou either fire hose them with
(37:46):
information, they're gonna sensethat desire to overgive, which
so many of my amazing clientshave.
And I'm not surprised because Ihave it too.
It's but it is uh of service.
So for you just having thatmindset that this is of service
for me to really show peoplewhat all is truly required here
and how they can experiencegetting that by working with me
(38:08):
in another way.
SPEAKER_00 (38:09):
That is funny that you mention that in service,
because I just released episode109, and in it we're talking
about that like feminine softsales where it feels icky coming
at it from like a bro salesperspective, where for us it's
all about service and helpingand just guiding someone to a
(38:33):
solution.
And if you choose me, that'sawesome.
I have two dogs hanging outunderneath my desk right now.
Let's see what wires they pullout.
He just busted through the doorand came in under my desk.
SPEAKER_02 (38:46):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (38:47):
Life, life and business.
SPEAKER_01 (38:48):
Uh they move it along no matter what.
Dogs and all truly.
SPEAKER_00 (38:53):
Yeah, my kids are home from school today and
they're both rollerblading onthe main floor.
I can hear them.
SPEAKER_01 (38:59):
That sounds like a fun day.
SPEAKER_00 (39:02):
Life and business all over again.
Guys, totally.
All right.
So thank you so much for goingover your paid workshop
strategy.
Now, can you tell us a littlebit more about your workshop
game plan?
SPEAKER_01 (39:18):
Yeah, totally.
So this is a really greatstarting point.
If you're thinking I might wantto host a paid workshop, let me
just see what this could evenlook like for me.
Go ahead and use the workshopgame plan generator at
myworkshopgameplan.com.
I'm gonna ask you, like, I don'tknow, 10 questions, something
like that.
Because as we talked aboutbefore, everything I do is very
meant to be personalized to you.
(39:39):
Everything is rooted in what'sgonna work for you given your
personality, your preferences,your strengths, your business
circumstances, your goals, allthose things are not gonna be
the same as the next person.
So this is kind of that firststep as to getting some type of
personalized recommendations asit relates to paid workshops.
So you're gonna answer thosequestions.
What I'm gonna do at the end isshare with you.
Hey, here's the type, the formatof workshop that could work well
(40:01):
for you.
Here's kind of the time framerange you could be looking at.
Here's a sample agenda of howthat could flow, leveraging my
craft framework.
And then some simple pricing andpromotion recommendations just
based on the type of workshopthat you get on the back end.
And then I email you all thedifferent types, regardless of
or all the different formats,depend regardless of what you
(40:23):
bought, so that you can see theother options.
You don't have to take it 15times trying to hack this some
and get different results.
You could just see them all.
I'm not trying to like hideanything from you.
SPEAKER_00 (40:33):
I would 100% immediately went to all the ones
that I didn't get.
I'm like, sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:38):
Yeah, totally.
Because it's it just we startsomewhere and then you can
tailor the experience to what itis you want it to be.
And then of course I haveresources to to support in
whatever way people are wantingon the back end of that as well.
Awesome.
And where can they find youonline?
I'm mostly over on Instagram.
(40:58):
As you know, I've been likedipping my table in the LinkedIn
world a little bit here andthere.
Um, so I'm mainly on Instagram,I'm at ASK Anne Ray Rose.
And then over on LinkedIn, I'mjust Anne Ray Rose, and I am
connecting over there more andmore.
So you can find me there.
SPEAKER_00 (41:17):
I will have all those links in the show notes.
Thanks again.
SPEAKER_01 (41:22):
This was so fun.
I love paid workshops.
I love that you are in theprocess of bringing one to life.
I'm so excited to see how itturns out.
SPEAKER_00 (41:29):
Yeah, that's me too.
Thank you.
I hope you enjoyed this episodewith Anne-Marie Rose.
She gave us some amazinginsights on how to launch paid
micro offers, or for her, it'salways paid workshops, and turn
those prospects into clients.
(41:51):
You love all things tinymarketing.
Head down to the show notes pageand sign up for the wait list to
join the Tiny Marketing Club,where you get to work one-on-one
with me with trainings,feedback, and pop-up coaching
that will help you scale yourmarketing as a B2B service
(42:13):
business.
So I'll see you over in theclub.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.