Are you hiding your website URL because it's not bringing in clients? You're not alone. Most service businesses are making two critical messaging mistakes that prevent their beautiful websites from converting visitors into paying clients.
In this illuminating conversation with website expert Caitlin Lang, founder of Liquid Form Design, we dive deep into the psychology of website copy that actually sells. Rather than leading with photos of yourself or vague aspirational statements, Caitlin reveals how to position yourself as "the painkiller" your ideal clients are desperately seeking.
The magic happens when you speak directly to your dream clients' emotional state and pain points before quickly transitioning to the transformation you provide. As Theodore Levitt wisely noted, "People don't want to buy a quarter-inch drill, they want a quarter-inch hole." Your website needs to sell outcomes, not services.
We explore the elements of a conversion-focused homepage, from powerful headlines that spark emotional connection to strategically placed testimonials that address common objections. Caitlin shares specific prompts for exit interviews that generate testimonials with selling power, plus frameworks for crafting copy that converts – including AI prompts you can steal.
Surprisingly, most website visitors never leave your homepage, making those first few sections critical for conversion. Learn how to structure your content with scannable headlines, proper hierarchy, and mobile optimization that maintains impact across all devices.
Whether your current website is gathering digital dust or you're embarrassed to share your URL, this episode provides the exact strategies you need to transform your web presence into a client-generating machine. Don't miss Caitlin's frameworks, examples, and actionable advice that will have leads flowing from your website without requiring giant marketing budgets or huge teams.
Ready to create a website that actually sells for you? Download the show notes for Caitlin's recommended resources, and subscribe to Tiny Marketing for more actionable strategies that help B2B service businesses do more with less.
Join my events community for FREE monthly events.
I offer free events each month to help you master your business's growth through marketing, sales, systems, and offer strategy.
Join the community here!
Are you tired of prospects ghosting you? With a Gateway Offer, that won't happen.
Over the next Ten Days, we will launch and sell our Gateway Offers with the goal of reaching booked-out status!
Join the challenge here.
Join the Tiny Marketing Club >>> Join the Club
Come tour my digital home :) >>>Website
Wanna be friends? >>> LinkedIn
Let's chat every Tuesday! >>> Newsletter
Catch the video podcast on YouTube >>>YouTube
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Tiny Marketing.
This is Sarah Norrell-Block,and this is a podcast that helps
B2B service businesses do morewith less.
Learn lean, actionable, organicmarketing strategies you can
implement today.
No fluff, just powerful growthtactics that work.
Ready to scale smarter?
Hit that subscribe button andstart growing your business with
(00:20):
Tiny Marketing.
Growing your business with tinymarketing.
I've got DMs blowing up rightnow inside of the tiny marketing
club asking the same questionIs my website supposed to sell
for me?
Because it's not.
Well, good news.
Today's guest is Caitlin Lang.
(00:41):
She is the founder of LiquidForm Design.
She's a one-stop shop forbranding website and copy that
actually converts, especiallyfor women-owned service
businesses.
A lot of you that are listeningactually do work.
(01:06):
Actually sell for you.
The two biggest messagingmistakes most service providers
make what your homepage needs inorder to convert traffic to
clients, how to speak directlyto your dream clients, emotions
and pain points.
And Caitlin is not holding back.
She's dropping frameworks,client examples, even AI prompts
that you can steal.
So if you've got a gorgeoussite that's gathering dust and
(01:30):
not converting clients, oryou're hiding your URL like it's
a bad axe, this is your episode, hi.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I'm Caitlin Lang.
I'm the founder of Liquid FormDesign.
I do branding and websites forwomen-owned service businesses
and I am a one-stop shop for allthings branding web design,
which means I also do the copy,because I think that the words
in your website are just asimportant as the visuals.
To make sure you sell andthat's what we're going to be
talking about today yes, sellwith your website and that is so
(02:02):
important.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
So many people come into Tiny Marketing Club and
they're like is your websitesupposed to sell?
Because I've been doing it.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, and I want if people work with you and get all
the awesome marketing expertisethat you're bringing and people
are getting driven to someone'swebsite, then I want that
website to then convert and sell.
Yeah it should, it should sellfor you.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
You should be getting inbound leads if you're doing
it right, so let's first getinto what are the biggest
mistakes that people are makingwith their messaging.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I think the two biggest things I see the most in
service provider websites andmy expertise is in service
provider websites I'm not goingto go into everybody that
listens to this show is in theprovider websites and my
expertise is in service providerwebsites.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I'm not going to go into-.
Everybody that listens to thisshow is in the service space,
Okay good.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
So with service providers, the one I see the
most is someone will lead theirhomepage with a big, beautiful
photo of themselves and copythis as something like hi, I'm
Caitlin, I'm an amazing graphicdesigner and I do this kind of
branding work and it's what alot of people do.
So people just keep doing it.
(03:09):
But when you're just talkingabout yourself, your target
client can't see themselves inwhat you're offering, and there
are lots of great graphicdesigners who do branding for
these kinds of industries.
It's not differentiating.
So that's one.
The second one and this isreally common with coaches and
therapists and I mean a lot ofdifferent service businesses
(03:30):
will there be a beautiful naturephoto and a vague aspirational
quote or statement that sayssomething like unlock the
authentic nature of your brand.
And what does that mean?
Right, what does it mean?
It's too vague.
You're not speaking to your.
You know your target clients'pain points and you just you see
(03:50):
a lot of sites like that andthey all start looking the same,
and so it's really hard then toyou're not differentiating
yourself and you're not.
You can't sell if you don't, ifthe person doesn't even know
what you're selling.
So those are the the twobiggest problems that I see, and
I'm sure that you've seen a lotof those.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
I've witnessed those exact things.
It's on so many websites andusually when someone enters the
tiny marketing club, the firstthing I do is that strategic
spark and I'm like, I'm notgoing to lie, I don't understand
what you're doing, what youprovide based off of the copy on
that website.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yes, the number of times I've gone to a service
provider's website and I have noidea what they're selling or
what they do, it's just, it'sconstant.
And so what you want to doinstead is you want to show that
you understand your targetclient's pain points.
You want to speak directly tothem and you want to position
yourself as the painkiller thatthey've been looking for.
And so I was so excited thismorning when I went to your
website.
(04:43):
I knew this would be true, butI went to your website this
morning and looked it up andyou're doing exactly this.
You have a headline I have itpulled up.
It says imagine you're the onlychoice for your ideal customer.
So people want that.
They want to be the only choice.
So they're going to seethemselves immediately in that
headline.
And then you have this greatsubhead that says it's possible
(05:06):
even without gigantic marketingbudgets and huge teams.
So there you're showing them.
You understand them.
You see their fear that theywon't be able to achieve the
result they want with a smallteam, but you're telling them
that it is possible.
So people read that.
They immediately recognizethemselves, they recognize you
as a person who's uniquelypositioned to help them and they
want to work with you and I soyeah, but I was thinking about
(05:26):
did you hear this?
I forget the actual subject, butPia's podcast, an OBS podcast.
She had a this.
One of her guests was talkingabout the marketing expert,
harvard.
What's his name?
I wrote it down Theodore Levittfrom Harvard Business School
and he said people don't want tobuy a quarter inch drill, they
(05:50):
want a quarter inch hole.
So you want to sell the results.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
You're not selling your services, you're selling
the results that your serviceswill provide.
Yes, yes, I have heard thatphrase before, that like don't
talk about features, talk aboutthe benefits.
What are you getting in the end?
Because if I can't understandwhat my outcome is going to be
at the end of working with you,I'm not going to hire you,
because that's all I want.
Is that final?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
outcome, yeah, yeah.
So we want to have that in themain banner of your homepage and
ideally also in the definitelythe next section.
I sometimes even have the firstthree sections of the website
based on that focus on targetclients, pain points and the
results they're going to get.
And so how do we do that?
Yes, first we need to know whowe're talking to, so I don't
(06:36):
want to open the whole nichingcan of worms.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Open it a little bit, just like a little bit.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
A little bit.
I think you know people areafraid of niching.
I don't know how many Open it alittle bit, just like back the
lid.
Back the lid a little bit.
I think you know people areafraid of niching.
They're afraid that if they gotoo narrow they're not going to
have any clients.
I have found personally thatwhen I niched to work so I've
been doing this for 25 years Iused to say that I could do
anything for everyone, which istechnically true, and for a
(07:03):
while that actually did kind ofwork for me for some reason.
But when the market got roughersorry, were you going to say
something?
Speaker 1 (07:07):
I was going to say at the beginning of starting your
career.
I think that works becauseyou're trying to figure out who
you are.
It's like you're an adolescentand you're discovering who you
are, and the same goes for abusiness.
But I 100% agree with you thatthe more narrow you get, the
much easier it is to get leads.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah Well, and I think also earlier in my career,
when my prices were lower and Iwas more hungry and I was
willing to also sacrifice moreof my soul and my revenue to get
the job, it didn't matter asmuch.
But as I've gotten, as I'vegained expertise, as my prices
have gotten higher, it also ithas worked better for me to
niche too, because it justbecome more of an expert, it
(07:52):
makes more sense to justify theprices I'm charging honestly too
.
But I found that as soon as Istarted saying specifically I
work with women-owned servicebusinesses, the floodgates open
in terms of referrals.
It was just easy for people tounderstand how to refer me who
you know.
It'd be easy for someone tothink of a client for me,
because it's just so specific awoman who owns a service
(08:13):
business.
So I think at the very least,when you're writing copy, you
need to think about who like.
I think the easiest thing is tothink about who's your favorite
client, who do you most want towork with, and then speak
directly to that person, andit's just the more specific you
can get, the more you're goingto be able to, the more your
target clients can be able tosee themselves in your messaging
(08:34):
and the more effective it'sgoing to be.
That's the bottom line 100%agree with that.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
When I'm doing like done for you services, that's
the first thing I do is like Iinterview their favorite clients
, so I literally pull the wordsout of their mouth and put it in
the copy because it makes ahuge difference and other people
can see themselves.
It allows you to clone thosepeople.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yes, I think the misconception is that people
have to go super specific, Likewe both know someone who does
branding specifically for womendentists and that's very
specific and it doesn't need tobe that specific.
I mean, that's working for her,that's great.
But you know, Pia was just oneperson's purpose businesses.
Yours is just service B2B at acertain size, right, it's not
(09:23):
industry.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
No, I do not go industry specific.
I like to look at the specificchallenge that I solve.
Tiny marketing was born fromsmall businesses that don't have
a marketing department.
They have like zero to twopeople marketing departments
because they have very specificchallenges that I solve.
Marketing departments becausethey have very specific
challenges that I solve Right.
(09:44):
I think that leaning into thatchallenge that you solve makes
niching a lot more interesting.
And also people do thinkindustry when they think of
niching and that can get reallyboring.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yes, I agree, I'm industry agnostic also.
I'll work in industry.
It's just, it's mainly the sizeand service or just being a
service business.
But, um, I think that that'sbut I mean for you.
I mean, even though that nichemight sound broad, who you're
working with is still reallydifferent from you know a
gigantic tech company or youknow something really corporate,
(10:20):
so it is absolutely yeah, yeah,the like when I was at a point
in my business where I was justtaking whatever would come my
way.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I noticed that the best results came from those
people that were experiencingthat exact challenge.
So then, it made it easier forme to be able to do that,
because they would want to referme more and I also knew exactly
how to solve that problem.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, and the more jobs you do that way for that
kind of person or that client,the more you're honing your own
expertise and the more valuableyou're becoming.
Yeah, which is the other funthing about niching is you just
get better and better at whatyou're doing.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
You get so much better at it.
That's true.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yes, I just I feel like I, when my clients come to
me, I already like I alreadyknow so much about them before
I've even talked to them,Because there is, there is so
much similarity between women inthis, in the same size of
business, working as serviceproviders.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, and we also all have similar personalities in
that you have to be a certainway to live that life.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
That's true too, so anyway.
So yeah, I think that somelevel of niching is important.
I think you you have to makesome choices there, and the
other thing is you don't have to.
You don't have to turn peopleaway if it sounds interesting.
If someone comes to you outsideof your niche, you can still
say yes, it say yes.
It doesn't have to be superlimiting, but anyway.
So I have a gateway offer,similar to your strategic spark,
(11:50):
called the Branding Roadmap,where I start with a 90-minute
interview.
I have all these questionsabout where someone's been,
where they are now, where theywant to go, their target
audience.
But the real meat of thatinterview, the part that I come
back to over and over again whenI'm working on the brand and
messaging, is the questionsabout their target clients' pain
points and the problems thatthey solve and how they're
(12:12):
uniquely positioned to behelpful.
So I wrote down a few promptsthat are sort of a distillation
of the questions I ask from mybranding roadmap that I think
are most helpful in figuringthis out and how best to
position yourself as apainkiller with your website
copy.
So I think you want to askwhat's the emotional state of
(12:37):
your target client when theycome looking for you, what
frustrations are theyexperiencing right now?
What changes after they workwith you, what becomes possible,
what problem goes away?
And I think focusing on theemotions how are they feeling
before they work with you andhow are they feeling after is
really powerful, and that's it'shopping into those emotions,
(12:59):
which is how you connect withyour client and make them really
want to work with you.
And going back to yours, it'sjust, it is really emotional.
Imagine you're the only choicefor your ideal customer.
You really feel that when youread that, and then it's
possible, that that sense ofhope, even without gigantic
marketing budgets and huge teams.
I just love how you tap intoagain, like you tap into their
(13:21):
fear that they don't have a bigenough marketing budget.
So you're with just those threesimple sentences, you're
hitting all those points.
What are their fears?
How do they feel now?
How are they going to feelafter working with you?
And just feel that sense ofrelief.
And so the idea with all ofthis is that they're going to
read that, those opening linesin your homepage, and they're
going to feel relief.
They're going to say, oh, shegets it, she understands what
(13:43):
I'm going through and she'sgoing to help me.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, and one thing that I want to just mention on
that is I'm taking objectionslike the objections that I would
get on a sales call.
I don't have a team to be ableto run this and making sure that
it's woven into my messaging,so I'm addressing them ahead of
time.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Yes, absolutely so.
Yeah, what I like to do is inthat first main hero banner on
the homepage is have a couple ofsimple lines, like you have,
speaking to a little bit of painand the solution, always
drilling down on the solutionand the outcome.
And then in the next sections,people are afraid to talk about
(14:27):
a pain point and they want it toall be rainbows and put an A
before they wouldn't meet youand yeah, but it really.
People really do want to feelheard and understood.
The second banner I think it'sreally important to speak to
your target client's pain pointsin a couple of sentences.
Don't hang out there too long.
Just a couple sentences sayingyou get it and then go straight
(14:49):
in to the solution that you'regoing to provide and how you're
the person to solve theirproblems.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yes, yeah, I agree with you that a lot of people
are afraid and, honestly,messaging can lean too much into
the pain.
There is a too far on that, soyou have to really toe the line
to make it effective, withoutlike wallowing in the problem.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Well, again, I think you do that really well on your
website because it's reallybrief but it's effective.
You say long sales cycles,missed opportunities and burnout
are done.
So you just in that onesentence, you name three
possible pain points peoplemight be feeling, and then the
next paragraph, you go straightinto how you are going to fix it
.
And that's exactly how I liketo do it, where you just touch
(15:39):
on it briefly, show that youcare, that you understand, and
then show how you're going tomake it better.
So you say, with a tinymarketing approach, you know
exactly what your customer caresabout, how to talk about it and
how to reach them, and togetherwe're going to work this out,
how to talk about it and how toreach them, and together we're
going to work this out.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, yeah, and it also shows like empathy.
I have been there, I understandwhere you're coming from and
I've worked with people that aredealing with this too and
brought them to the other side.
So I think that everybodylistening has to get less afraid
of talking about the pain thatthey're going through, because
that might be all they feel inthat moment.
They might not understand yetthe solution that would get them
(16:17):
to the other side, or what theother side even looks like.
You have to think about thephase that they're in
emotionally.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yeah, yeah.
And also going back to thinkingabout those homepages where
it's a picture of the serviceprovider and then just hi, I'm
Caitlin and I do these awesomethings.
It also reminds me that I thinkthat you want to think of every
section of your website as aselling opportunity.
So even the about page whereyou're talking about yourself
(16:45):
still should be.
Here's my story.
But this is how that's helpfulfor you.
This is how my story and myexpertise and all the awesome
things I can do.
This is why it's important toyou and this is how it's going
to help you and still help youget the result that you want.
So I think every section shouldbe referring back to your
target client in some way.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, yeah.
I like to look at about pagesas almost like a case study of
like this is what I went throughand how I got to the other side
, and now I can do that for you.
Yes, yeah, that's a really goodway to look at it.
Have any like specificframeworks that someone could
work through for their aboutpage?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
for the about page.
Um.
Well, so I I really um, there'sso much on linkedin um about
you know, ai taking over andbeing a disaster, but I think
it's such a great brainstormingI love me, I yeah, it's a great
way to just get some ideas outthere, and so I like to use ai
from the beginning, and so ifyou start with the home page and
you've already put in you knowif you're trying, if you start
with the homepage and you'vealready put in you know if
you're trying, if you use AI, tostart brainstorming some
headlines and some copy for theproblem results section or
(17:58):
website.
You've already got some greatcontent in there.
And now here I want to remindyou about the problems that my
target clients might be facing.
How does my story help mytarget client and can you weave
together a bio that brings inthese different touch points, so
(18:22):
my story and then how it canhelp my clients' lives improve?
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, that's a good way to look at it.
It's storytelling, but you'repulling your ideal client
through that story.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yes, yeah, and I think the important thing with
AI, too, is to really look at itas a tool and not the end-all
be-all not the writer here, so Ithink that that's the key and
to use it for ideas.
What I love about it the most isthat, because of AI, I never am
staring at a blank page, sothere's none of that banging my
(18:58):
head against the wall because Ican't think of the right word
situation.
So it can help me just iteratequickly and usually get me where
I want to go or just give methe idea to write the thing
myself.
But it is just really helpfulto just throw spaghetti at the
wall and figure out whichmessaging resonates and go from
there.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Yeah, if you, like you were saying that you
interview your clients ahead oftime and I interview my clients'
customers, if you can keepthose transcripts and put them
in there, that will help a lottoo, because now you're feeding
the information to the AI andit's able to give you an output
that makes much more sense thanit would if you're just, you
(19:37):
know, giving a prompt.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
It's true, yeah, it's , yeah, it needs.
It's still the AI still needs alot of handholding and guiding,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
It's not like I think of AI as a workhorse.
It's not creative, it's notstrategic, but it is a really
cheap assistant and it will do alot of things for you, but it
won't do the brain work becauseit's using information that
already exists in the world.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yes, and so then, with every time I enter in
anything, I always remind it nojargon, no cliches.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, you can set your settings too, so it never
does any of that.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yes, but I do find it's still so easy to throw
stuff in.
I do feel like I have to remindit.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
I have to reteach too .
I create a lot of custom GPTsand sometimes I'm like I think
that you've forgotten what Iteach you.
Yes, let's relearn it.
Can you go back to the sourcefiles and relearn this?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yes, yeah, you have to still be really vigilant.
And it is interesting,everyone's saying it's just
going to get better and better.
But if we keep creating moreand more generic content with it
, is it going to get better andbetter?
It's going to get more generic.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
That's valid.
I think the better you are atengineering your GPTs, the
better the output will be.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
But again, that puts you in the creative and the
strategic seat, while the AI isthe workhorse, right, right
right, because I worry about theyoung people, because I'm an
old lady and I learned to writein the nineties and so I already
know how to write, I alreadyknow how to think, and so, yeah,
I don't.
I have a teenage son and Idon't know how that's going to
(21:18):
work out for him if he'slearning to write now with chat
GPT as his assistant.
I don't know.
It'll be interesting to see.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yeah yeah, my kids are learning how to use AI right
now in school.
That's like one of the thingsthat's right.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, that's great.
My kid is not.
We were just talking about thatat breakfast the other day.
They're not.
They're very head in the sandat my kid's high school.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Crazy.
I know Everybody who's so likeanti-AI.
I'm like you evolve or die,that's just how it is, and AI
it's a good day, so evolve ordie.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I completely agree, but luckily, for now, it still
does need us and it still doesneed our strategic minds and to
know what to feed it.
And so that's where theseprompts come in is making sure
that you keep referring back tothe emotions and you know these
sorts of ideas that still ahuman needs to tell it to do.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yeah, it's humans.
Buying and messaging is allabout psychology and
understanding the processsomeone is going through
emotionally, as they're goingthrough a problem and needing to
get to the other side of it.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, it's true.
Are these similar prompts thatyou use when you're doing your
marketing messaging?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, pretty similar.
I definitely feed in thetranscripts and I pre-built the
custom GP3s, so the way I like,the output is already done.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
But the prompts are pretty similar.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah, yeah.
And what do you?
Have you noticed somethingsimilar with service provider
websites, with how they'remissing sales opportunities in
their copy?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yes, yes, I do.
I think you're right that somany people are just looking at
other people's sites and copyingwhat they see or their template
site and they just put in thatas the messaging.
So they assume that that's whatit's supposed to be.
But well, it's definitely notRight yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, and I think people also focus too much on
just the aesthetics of a websiteand they want, or the logo, and
they want, you know, a reallycool logo and a really flashy,
cool site.
And it's interesting to me howmany websites for designers I
see that are gorgeous but don'thave any really any messaging at
all.
They're just, you know, thehomepage will just have their
(23:54):
logo doing something fancy, yeah, and they don't say anything,
and I think that's aninteresting choice.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
It's probably less of a choice and more of like.
That's the world they live in.
Yeah, and I suppose it's almostshowcasing their skill set with
that.
Yeah, I suppose it's almostshowcasing their skill set with
that.
But it's a missed opportunitynot having messaging that's
going to sell for you, becauseit would basically be like a
(24:20):
portfolio site Like.
This is what I can do Insteadof showing people the journey
that you'll take them on, right?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
right.
I just think a lot of websitesare just sitting there gathering
dust, not doing much for people.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Often, oftentimes, people are like I have a website
but don't go to it.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I hear that a lot.
I hear that a lot yeah, a lotof embarrassment of websites,
but also a lot of people whodon't even know that their
websites aren't selling for thembecause they're pretty.
And so a website can bebeautiful, but then if it's not
clear what they do or whothey're serving, then it's still
not going to be effective.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yeah, yeah.
A lot of times I'll talk topeople and they'll think that,
well, just websites are dead.
It's not my website inparticular.
It's that people are finding mein different ways, but the
reason that that is working forthem is because their website
isn't working for them, right.
So people have to find them.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
other ways there's no other choice, right, because I
think people are still going towebsites.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
They absolutely are.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Validate authority.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I can look at my analytics and tell you 100%
people are going to my websiteand I'm getting direct leads
from it weekly.
It's not websites.
That's the problem.
It's your messaging thatdoesn't explain what you do.
That's the problem.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
The other thing that I think is really important on
your homepage is to have reallystrong testimonials.
Maybe we'll talk about that fora second, Because I think
another thing that peoplethere's a way also to help to
give your clients prompts whenthey're writing testimonials.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Ooh, let's hear it.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, because I think you know there's so many
lackluster testimonials thatjust say you know, caitlin was
amazing, I love working for her,but there's when I end every
project I have an exit interviewwhere I ask people specific
questions about what it was liketo work with me and I found
(26:29):
that it helps people write moreinteresting testimonials.
And so a big question, a bigimportant question to ask is
yeah, how do you think?
Well, so for me it's my ROI.
Stuff is a little bit hardbecause it depends a lot on
marketing.
But a big question is you know,how do you think this brand
(26:51):
will be beneficial to yourbusiness?
Or how do you feel now that youhave this new brand, and how is
this brand going to change howyou go out and sell?
And so asking really specificquestions about how your service
will impact your client andtheir business is really helpful
in getting strongertestimonials that are more
(27:13):
specific and they can still beresults-oriented and
outcome-focused.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I really like that.
I can't remember who Iinterviewed I wish I did, but I
don't and but they were tellingme about a trick that they use
for testimonials.
That's brilliant.
So they do an exit interviewlike that and then they will
write a couple differenttestimonials for them and send
(27:38):
them to the client and say youknow, change these however you
want.
But if you want to use these on, you know, google, my Business
or whatever it is, they collectreviews to adjust it as you want
.
But then it takes out that thisis homework aspect of it and
you're using their words becauseit came from their exit
(27:59):
interview.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
That's a really good idea.
The other one I just rememberedis that I like to ask what
hesitations people had beforehiring me, because then it's
nice if in their testimonialthey can actually speak to an
objection that one of my clientsmight have.
That's smart.
So, yeah, I get a lot oftestimonials that say things
like I didn't think I had thebudget to pay for a new website,
but I'm really glad that Idecided to do it.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, that is so smart.
Everybody take notes on thatone.
I want you to ask about theobjections that they had,
because it's very likely thatother people had those ones and
more will have them.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yes, and then the other one is why did you decide
to work with me and how did youovercome that hesitation?
That's a helpful one to knowalso.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Like why were they considering not working with you
?
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, Well, so if I start out, my first question is
what hesitations did you havebefore hiring?
But then the second question isthen, what made you decide to
work?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, that's smart and all of that.
You can also use the exitinterview information to write
little case stories that you canuse on LinkedIn.
It's true.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, it's all really valuable information to have.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, and you can use that information for your
messaging later, like if you'rereinvigorating your messaging on
your website.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, and yeah, and it's.
That's one of the.
I don't know if you do this,but it's one of the problems
with being having doing this fora living is that I'm always
tweaking and I never satisfy I'mthe tweaking queen.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Are you kidding me?
Yes, I have that problem, youkidding me?
Yes, I have that problem, Ijust need to just let it sit.
But yeah, yes, it's true, but Irecord absolutely every meeting
I have.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
So I have so many good, valuable insights from
that.
I can't help that.
I know, I know.
Yeah, I think we're both, yeah,perfectionist tendencies, want
to always get it just right.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
I feel like that's probably most entrepreneurs.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Probably when in entrepreneurs particularly.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I have found that we are definitely a little more
type A.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Yes, I think that's probably true.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Okay, so let's talk about the elements of a
successful conversion-focusedhomepage.
We have testimonials that wewant to include.
We have the head in the suburbthat touches on the pain and the
transformation, the outcome.
What else do we need?
(30:38):
Transformation, the outcomewhat else?
Speaker 2 (30:41):
do we need?
So, yeah, so I like to startwith yes, I start with the main
hero banner with headline andsubhead that speaks to the
target client's pain points,outcome, another section on
problem results, and then I liketo be really explicit about the
exact services you're providing.
(31:02):
So to the point we were talkingabout earlier, where you can go
to a lot of these websites.
You don't know what they do.
So, just in case they've read,you know these two sections of
copy and they still aren'tcrystal clear on what you do.
I like to then have a sectionthat basically lists these are
my offerings.
So I'm trying to think of anexample here I'm going to pull
(31:26):
up.
So, for example, I just did awebsite recently for a woman who
does brand strategy consulting,and so the main banner says
reclaim your voice, expand yourinfluence, which is a little bit
of the vague aspirational thing, but then the subhead is very
(31:47):
specific I help accomplishedleaders find the words to be
themselves, show it fully andcreate the future they want,
because success and authenticityaren't mutually exclusive.
The next session goes into painpoints and solution, and then oh
, and then she was worked a lotof high profile clients.
So social proof is always great.
So for her, we have a lot oflogos of the clients that she's
(32:09):
worked with for social proof,and then we have a list of her
specific offerings.
So she has executive presenceand personal brand coaching,
team workshops, personal brandbootcamps, strategic consulting
and speaking engagements, and soeach of those link out to the
(32:30):
respective service pages.
People can go exactly where theyget that information, more
information, and actually so Ihave it set up in an accordion
menu so they're listed, but youcan also open up the menu to see
a little bit more, to see wait,do I really want that?
Is that the service I need?
But just getting reallyspecific?
(32:50):
And then I have testimonials,sign up for email newsletter, of
course, and I like to put thatin the footer of every page so
that people really see it.
And then the footer don'tsnooze on the footer.
The footer is where you canhave some good SEO information
and some more information aboutwhat specifically you do, and
it's a great place to have alittle roundup of all the stuff
that's been on the whole page.
(33:11):
So for her, we have empoweringaccomplished leaders to
articulate their value andexpand their influence, personal
brand coaching, strategicconsulting and keynote speaking
that transforms how you show up,so it's good for SEO.
It's also just an extrareminder oh, this is what she's
offering and this is how she'sgoing to help you.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
That's smart.
That is something I'm missing.
I definitely snooze on myfooter.
Oh yeah, Don't snooze on yourfooter.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Those are the main elements of the homepage, and I
think the other thing I'verealized recently is that you
can have a full site in onescrolling page.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
I was just going to ask about that.
I love a one-page website, butI wanted your opinion.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
I absolutely think that a lot of server providers
can get away with a one-pagewebsite and you can tell a
really compelling story in justone page, and what's nice about
it is it makes you getpagewebsite and you can tell a
really compelling story in justone page.
And what's nice about it is itmakes you get really specific
and you don't have all thoseextra words to sort of rest on
Like you have to like.
Every word has to count and soit can be really impactful.
(34:16):
And, yeah, I've done a coupleof them and I think it's a great
way to go for service providers.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
And it's just easier to navigate.
People do not like large sitemaps that they have to figure
out where to go to.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Yeah, and I don't know if this is true for your
site, but I noticed when I lookat the analytics for my site
people don't go a lot of places,they hang out on the homepage
and then they'll look at my mainportfolio page, but no one's
clicking into my individualportfolio pieces, so I used to
spend all this time doing theseelaborate case studies for all
my portfolio pieces At least.
(34:53):
No one goes there, so they justsort of they glance at the
portfolio page and then somepeople go to the about page.
A lot of people don't even goto the about page, so most
people are spending most oftheir time on the homepage.
So the more stuff you could jamonto your homepage, the better.
So I have a separate page fortestimonials on my site, but I
also have them on the homepage,just because a lot of people
(35:14):
don't go to that testimonialpage.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
True, I had to pull up my analytics when you were
talking about it.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
So let's see.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Let's see where people are going.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Mostly, mostly home, and I'll bet your services.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Absolutely.
Home is number one by like along shot, yeah.
And then my content section,the learn from the learn section
, and that's where I get a lotof my SEO.
So that makes sense.
They're the ones coming fromgoogle.
And then tiny marketing club isnext and my newsletter is after
(35:49):
that yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
How about your about page?
Is that getting much traffic?
Nope dink, yeah, yeah, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yeah, it gets less than everything else, even like
individual blog pages, it getsless than that.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah, yeah.
So I guess that's a goodargument to have a little bit
about yourself on the homepagetoo.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
But just my homepage is quadruple, my second highest
page, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah.
So you want to have a lot onyour homepage, but you want it
to all be concise and you wantto also avoid walls of words.
I see a lot of websites withjust so many words.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
That is true and that is where I need to.
I need to add it all the timebecause I'm a writer, I write a
lot.
And then I'm like because I'm awriter, I write a lot, and then
I'm like, sadly, cutting,cutting, cutting, cutting.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Yeah, no, it's really important because people can't
digest too much information atonce.
So you want it to be easy andhave hierarchy of words.
So make sure you have clearheadings, subheads, textheads.
Yes, that's true, so that it'seasy.
So I mean, ideally you can eventell, you can even read the
(37:08):
whole story of your website justgoing down and reading the
headlines.
Yeah, you can get a sense justreading the headlines that's
really smart.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
That's a smart way to put it.
Okay, now I want to make editsto my sharing is really good.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
I got really fired up as martinikney website.
I was like, oh good, sarah is,of course, doing everything
exactly how I would do it,because the other thing you do
well here's on the subject ofwalls of words.
You start with really short,easy digest bits of copy, so to
get people in and then, oncethey're invested as they're
going down your page, youactually do have some longer
(37:44):
bits, but you're only going downthere if you're already
interested.
So then you're going to, you'regoing to, you've got already.
Once you've got people'sattention, then you can give
them more copy, because thenthey're ready for it and they're
asking for it because they'rescrolling, but you want
everything up at the top to besnappier, yeah, yeah, yeah, be
snappier, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
I think that absolutely everything, including
like novels, read better whenyou have amazing hooks, like the
first line of every chaptershould be a hook that makes
someone just want to dive in.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's interesting.
On LinkedIn some people mockthe sort of I don't know if it's
recent the convention onLinkedIn where people are
writing with crazy short like,yeah, just the sentence, but it
is just so much easier to read,the eye has places to rest.
Yes, it's a whole big block ofcopy.
I get really overwhelmed.
I can't deal with it.
My brain short circuits.
I need those breaks.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
I'm with you.
I'm with you when I see that myeyes just glaze off to the side
, not because it's bad content,but because it's hard to read.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Hard to read, and same with your website.
You just need it to be easy toread.
Yeah, and easy to read quickly.
People are, especially ifthey're on their phones.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
They're scrolling, they're going fast, they're not
going to hang up and, speakingof phones, make sure when you
have a new website launchingthat you're copying what it
looks like on your phone,because I'll find that, like
dang, this looked normal on awebsite, but that's some chunky
copy right there when I'mscrolling on my phone.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yes, and a huge thing is Squarespace is not doing a
good job with their mobile inmaking sure that faces are still
showing up in photos.
They need to have come up withsome AI tool to be able to
determine that a face is stillin a photo.
Yeah, because I've seen a lotof people's websites where when
you go to mobile, their facesare cut off in all their photos.
(39:36):
So there's a little inSquarespace.
There's a little toggle betweendesktop and mobile.
Yeah, I use WordSpace too Ialways check, make sure you
check and make sure you checkevery time you make a change to
your site, because it can getwonky again once you make a
change.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
There is most definitely a chance that my
website is wonky at this pointfrom changes I've made.
But yes, your desktop to mobile.
It's crazy how different it canlook on mobile if you're not
checking and you can edit it.
So it's only the mobile versionthat gets that edit.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
I mean the tool is great.
Now People, I think, justaren't using it.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm using Squarespace too,and I'm always toggling between
those, and at first I was afraidlike if I make this edit here,
is it going to look like crap ona desktop.
Yeah, but it doesn'tInteresting.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
If you make a change in the desktop view it can mess
up mobile, but once you make achange in mobile it almost never
goes back.
There are a couple things youcan do that can go back and
impact desktop, but usually whatyou do in the mobile view isn't
impacting desktop.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yeah, I have not noticed that, but that's good to
know.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yeah, I mean always check, but it's usually fine.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Yeah, Before we wrap up, I wanted to talk a little
bit more about that thecombination of social proof and
testimonials on your website.
Yeah, One thing that I love butnever looks quite nice on a
website is the screenshots fromyour client wins.
Is there a good way to displaythat?
Speaker 2 (41:21):
um, that's so interesting.
I I don't do that, but I knowI've seen it.
I'm thinking, um, do you knowErica Schneider?
She might have that on herwebsite.
Um, I wonder if I can pull upquickly.
I know I've seen it on LinkedInand I, I mean, this is where
you know, maybe my need toalways have everything beautiful
(41:41):
gets in my way, um, because, ohno, I know she does something
different, never mind, um, Imean, there's probably.
I do not do that, I do.
I like the idea of it.
I think that there could be away, um, maybe to put the
screenshot on a solid within asolid box, so that it's framed
(42:04):
nicely or maybe like on a mobileframe.
Oh yeah, on a screen.
That's a good idea as a mock-up.
Yeah yeah, because I always,you know, copy and paste into a
nicer format.
But I've been seeing that moreand more on LinkedIn, where
people are just posting thescreenshots and super cool, it
just looks, it's so authentic.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
That's exactly why I like it is that there is no
messing around.
This is real and I like theauthenticity of it, but I just
don't think it looks pretty.
I want to figure out a prettyway to do it.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
I know you know that's a good challenge.
I have not tried to do it.
I'm just looking at anothersite that would maybe have that.
No, she doesn't either.
Sometimes people who just havecooler, edgier sites I feel like
could maybe get away with it.
But I just went to a couplethinking maybe they were doing
that and they aren't.
Yeah, I haven't tried that, butI think it's a good idea to try
(43:00):
it and I can imagine if you dothat but you do it near the
bottom of your site and you haveit against a nice background.
It's okay if it's not tied inperfectly aesthetically with the
rest of the site.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Yeah, and I suppose if the screenshot is the same
size for all of them it's notgoing to be ugly.
Yeah, I mean.
I say it's ugly, but I am muchmore likely to buy from someone
where I'm seeing the screenshotsthan I'm seeing pretty
testimonials.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yeah, I mean if you're looking at pros and cons,
the pros of that authenticitymight outweigh the cons of it
not being as beautiful.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
I mean, that's certainly people who have taken
my money.
That's what they haveexperienced.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Yeah, yeah, because it's true, I do.
I mean, whenever I see those onLinkedIn, they resonate a lot.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Yeah, I'm like okay, that's a real conversation.
That's a real person who had areal result.
I believe this.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Yes, yeah, and there's something really
impactful about seeing genuineenthusiasm in text or email form
.
Yeah, and there's somethingreally impactful about seeing
genuine enthusiasm in text oremail form.
Yeah, it's real.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
I do too.
I think that's a really goodidea.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
So you told me, before we hit record, that you
are launching a new newsletter.
Can you tell our audience?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
about it.
I am launching a new newsletter.
I've been telling Sarah, I'vebeen wanting to do this for many
, many months and I'm finallydoing it, hopefully launching
next week, which means hopefullyby the time this airs it'll be
launched.
So my website isliquidformdesigncom and I'm
going to have a sign up thereand I'm actually going to be
producing a little video I'mplanning to make this week that
(44:41):
will have a downloadable chatGPT prompt document about all
the stuff we were actuallytalking about today.
So about how to speak directlyto your target audience and with
a little simple worksheet andsome AI prompts to get you
started.
And then my newsletter.
I want it to be fun and breezyand it's going to be about
(45:05):
branding, but it's also going tobe about being a woman and the
patriarchy and I'm kind of downwith that.
Yeah, every newsletter I'mgoing to have, I'm going to
feature a different womenbusiness owner which I'm really
excited about, and I'm going tohave pop culture I'm interested
in that week.
And a recipe, some sort of easyrecipe, like a weeknight dinner
(45:29):
or my first.
I have a recipe for a singlechocolate chip cookie for those
when you're home alone and youjust really want one chocolate
chip cookie Brilliant?
Yes, I think so.
So anyway, I just I think I'mexcited, I think it's going to
be a fun, it's going to be agood time.
It's going to be.
I want it to be like loose andfun.
(45:49):
It's a vibe.
Hopefully it'll be a vibe andit'll be about branding, but
it'll also be about other stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
I like it.
I like it and especiallyconsidering who your audience is
, it's going to really resonatewith them.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Well, that's the thing.
I just finished this brand thisweek and I work in intensives,
like you do, and so it's just wehave this 90 minute interview
and then three or four meetingsover two days and the level of
connection that I could createwith these client because I just
I just felt like we'd beenthrough something together and
it just felt so good and um, andso the newsletter is also about
that just about connecting aswomen and um, supporting each
other and being there for eachother and I love that.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah, so I'll make sure to have the links for that
in the show notes.
Thank you and just for yourreference, I think this is
probably going to go out in twoweeks.
I have another Massagingpodcast episode that's coming
out on the 7th, so yours willprobably go right after that.
(47:00):
So it's going in a series.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
Okay, good, that'll be good inspiration for me to
get this thing live and going.
I'm on the verge, but yes,thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
All right.
How can people find you onlineand hang out with you virtually?
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Yes, my website is liquidformdesigncom.
I bought that URL 20 years agoand I would advise everyone to
not have a domain that.
That's.
That's so long.
It's really painful.
And um, and I'm on LinkedIn.
Um, my name is Caitlin with a C, Caitlin Lang, and I have a
really good time on LinkedIn.
(47:37):
I'm inspired by Sarah, who wasone of the people who first got
me on there, and it's, I think,and that's, another great place
for community.
I love it a lot.
So those are my two places.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
It's kind of funny how you build like your own
little networking event in everysingle post that you create.
It's like you're pulling peoplein having conversations.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Yes, and there's such an amazing community there of
women entrepreneurs and we allfound each other and it's so
freaking cool.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
I know it is.
I love it so much.
Thank you for joining me today.
Thank you so much, Sarah.
That was really fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Love all things.
Tiny marketing Head down to theshow notes page and sign up for
the waitlist to join the tinymarketing club, where you get to
work one-on-one with me withtrainings, feedback and pop-up
(48:29):
coaching that will help youscale your marketing as a B2B
service business.
So I'll see you over in theclub.
Welcome to Tiny Marketing.
This is Sarah Norrell-Block,and this is a podcast that helps
B2B service businesses do morewith less.
Learn lean, actionable, organicmarketing strategies you can
implement today.
No fluff, just powerful growthtactics that work.
Ready to scale smarter?
Hit that subscribe button andstart growing your business with
(00:20):
Tiny Marketing.
Growing your business with tinymarketing.
I've got DMs blowing up rightnow inside of the tiny marketing
club asking the same questionIs my website supposed to sell
for me?
Because it's not.
Well, good news.
Today's guest is Caitlin Lang.
(00:41):
She is the founder of LiquidForm Design.
She's a one-stop shop forbranding website and copy that
actually converts, especiallyfor women-owned service
businesses.
A lot of you that are listeningactually do work.
(01:06):
Actually sell for you.
The two biggest messagingmistakes most service providers
make what your homepage needs inorder to convert traffic to
clients, how to speak directlyto your dream clients, emotions
and pain points.
And Caitlin is not holding back.
She's dropping frameworks,client examples, even AI prompts
that you can steal.
So if you've got a gorgeoussite that's gathering dust and
(01:30):
not converting clients, oryou're hiding your URL like it's
a bad axe, this is your episode, hi.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I'm Caitlin Lang.
I'm the founder of Liquid FormDesign.
I do branding and websites forwomen-owned service businesses
and I am a one-stop shop for allthings branding web design,
which means I also do the copy,because I think that the words
in your website are just asimportant as the visuals.
To make sure you sell andthat's what we're going to be
talking about today yes, sellwith your website and that is so
(02:02):
important.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
So many people come into Tiny Marketing Club and
they're like is your websitesupposed to sell?
Because I've been doing it.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, and I want if people work with you and get all
the awesome marketing expertisethat you're bringing and people
are getting driven to someone'swebsite, then I want that
website to then convert and sell.
Yeah it should, it should sellfor you.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
You should be getting inbound leads if you're doing
it right, so let's first getinto what are the biggest
mistakes that people are makingwith their messaging.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I think the two biggest things I see the most in
service provider websites andmy expertise is in service
provider websites I'm not goingto go into everybody that
listens to this show is in theprovider websites and my
expertise is in service providerwebsites.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I'm not going to go into-.
Everybody that listens to thisshow is in the service space,
Okay good.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
So with service providers, the one I see the
most is someone will lead theirhomepage with a big, beautiful
photo of themselves and copythis as something like hi, I'm
Caitlin, I'm an amazing graphicdesigner and I do this kind of
branding work and it's what alot of people do.
So people just keep doing it.
(03:09):
But when you're just talkingabout yourself, your target
client can't see themselves inwhat you're offering, and there
are lots of great graphicdesigners who do branding for
these kinds of industries.
It's not differentiating.
So that's one.
The second one and this isreally common with coaches and
therapists and I mean a lot ofdifferent service businesses
(03:30):
will there be a beautiful naturephoto and a vague aspirational
quote or statement that sayssomething like unlock the
authentic nature of your brand.
And what does that mean?
Right, what does it mean?
It's too vague.
You're not speaking to your.
You know your target clients'pain points and you just you see
(03:50):
a lot of sites like that andthey all start looking the same,
and so it's really hard then toyou're not differentiating
yourself and you're not.
You can't sell if you don't, ifthe person doesn't even know
what you're selling.
So those are the the twobiggest problems that I see, and
I'm sure that you've seen a lotof those.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
I've witnessed those exact things.
It's on so many websites andusually when someone enters the
tiny marketing club, the firstthing I do is that strategic
spark and I'm like, I'm notgoing to lie, I don't understand
what you're doing, what youprovide based off of the copy on
that website.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yes, the number of times I've gone to a service
provider's website and I have noidea what they're selling or
what they do, it's just, it'sconstant.
And so what you want to doinstead is you want to show that
you understand your targetclient's pain points.
You want to speak directly tothem and you want to position
yourself as the painkiller thatthey've been looking for.
And so I was so excited thismorning when I went to your
website.
(04:43):
I knew this would be true, butI went to your website this
morning and looked it up andyou're doing exactly this.
You have a headline I have itpulled up.
It says imagine you're the onlychoice for your ideal customer.
So people want that.
They want to be the only choice.
So they're going to seethemselves immediately in that
headline.
And then you have this greatsubhead that says it's possible
(05:06):
even without gigantic marketingbudgets and huge teams.
So there you're showing them.
You understand them.
You see their fear that theywon't be able to achieve the
result they want with a smallteam, but you're telling them
that it is possible.
So people read that.
They immediately recognizethemselves, they recognize you
as a person who's uniquelypositioned to help them and they
want to work with you and I soyeah, but I was thinking about
(05:26):
did you hear this?
I forget the actual subject, butPia's podcast, an OBS podcast.
She had a this.
One of her guests was talkingabout the marketing expert,
harvard.
What's his name?
I wrote it down Theodore Levittfrom Harvard Business School
and he said people don't want tobuy a quarter inch drill, they
(05:50):
want a quarter inch hole.
So you want to sell the results.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
You're not selling your services, you're selling
the results that your serviceswill provide.
Yes, yes, I have heard thatphrase before, that like don't
talk about features, talk aboutthe benefits.
What are you getting in the end?
Because if I can't understandwhat my outcome is going to be
at the end of working with you,I'm not going to hire you,
because that's all I want.
Is that final?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
outcome, yeah, yeah.
So we want to have that in themain banner of your homepage and
ideally also in the definitelythe next section.
I sometimes even have the firstthree sections of the website
based on that focus on targetclients, pain points and the
results they're going to get.
And so how do we do that?
Yes, first we need to know whowe're talking to, so I don't
(06:36):
want to open the whole nichingcan of worms.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Open it a little bit, just like a little bit.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
A little bit.
I think you know people areafraid of niching.
I don't know how many Open it alittle bit, just like back the
lid.
Back the lid a little bit.
I think you know people areafraid of niching.
They're afraid that if they gotoo narrow they're not going to
have any clients.
I have found personally thatwhen I niched to work so I've
been doing this for 25 years Iused to say that I could do
anything for everyone, which istechnically true, and for a
(07:03):
while that actually did kind ofwork for me for some reason.
But when the market got roughersorry, were you going to say
something?
Speaker 1 (07:07):
I was going to say at the beginning of starting your
career.
I think that works becauseyou're trying to figure out who
you are.
It's like you're an adolescentand you're discovering who you
are, and the same goes for abusiness.
But I 100% agree with you thatthe more narrow you get, the
much easier it is to get leads.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah Well, and I think also earlier in my career,
when my prices were lower and Iwas more hungry and I was
willing to also sacrifice moreof my soul and my revenue to get
the job, it didn't matter asmuch.
But as I've gotten, as I'vegained expertise, as my prices
have gotten higher, it also ithas worked better for me to
niche too, because it justbecome more of an expert, it
(07:52):
makes more sense to justify theprices I'm charging honestly too
.
But I found that as soon as Istarted saying specifically I
work with women-owned servicebusinesses, the floodgates open
in terms of referrals.
It was just easy for people tounderstand how to refer me who
you know.
It'd be easy for someone tothink of a client for me,
because it's just so specific awoman who owns a service
(08:13):
business.
So I think at the very least,when you're writing copy, you
need to think about who like.
I think the easiest thing is tothink about who's your favorite
client, who do you most want towork with, and then speak
directly to that person, andit's just the more specific you
can get, the more you're goingto be able to, the more your
target clients can be able tosee themselves in your messaging
(08:34):
and the more effective it'sgoing to be.
That's the bottom line 100%agree with that.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
When I'm doing like done for you services, that's
the first thing I do is like Iinterview their favorite clients
, so I literally pull the wordsout of their mouth and put it in
the copy because it makes ahuge difference and other people
can see themselves.
It allows you to clone thosepeople.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yes, I think the misconception is that people
have to go super specific, Likewe both know someone who does
branding specifically for womendentists and that's very
specific and it doesn't need tobe that specific.
I mean, that's working for her,that's great.
But you know, Pia was just oneperson's purpose businesses.
Yours is just service B2B at acertain size, right, it's not
(09:23):
industry.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
No, I do not go industry specific.
I like to look at the specificchallenge that I solve.
Tiny marketing was born fromsmall businesses that don't have
a marketing department.
They have like zero to twopeople marketing departments
because they have very specificchallenges that I solve.
Marketing departments becausethey have very specific
challenges that I solve Right.
(09:44):
I think that leaning into thatchallenge that you solve makes
niching a lot more interesting.
And also people do thinkindustry when they think of
niching and that can get reallyboring.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yes, I agree, I'm industry agnostic also.
I'll work in industry.
It's just, it's mainly the sizeand service or just being a
service business.
But, um, I think that that'sbut I mean for you.
I mean, even though that nichemight sound broad, who you're
working with is still reallydifferent from you know a
gigantic tech company or youknow something really corporate,
(10:20):
so it is absolutely yeah, yeah,the like when I was at a point
in my business where I was justtaking whatever would come my
way.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I noticed that the best results came from those
people that were experiencingthat exact challenge.
So then, it made it easier forme to be able to do that,
because they would want to referme more and I also knew exactly
how to solve that problem.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, and the more jobs you do that way for that
kind of person or that client,the more you're honing your own
expertise and the more valuableyou're becoming.
Yeah, which is the other funthing about niching is you just
get better and better at whatyou're doing.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
You get so much better at it.
That's true.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yes, I just I feel like I, when my clients come to
me, I already like I alreadyknow so much about them before
I've even talked to them,Because there is, there is so
much similarity between women inthis, in the same size of
business, working as serviceproviders.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, and we also all have similar personalities in
that you have to be a certainway to live that life.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
That's true too, so anyway.
So yeah, I think that somelevel of niching is important.
I think you you have to makesome choices there, and the
other thing is you don't have to.
You don't have to turn peopleaway if it sounds interesting.
If someone comes to you outsideof your niche, you can still
say yes, it say yes.
It doesn't have to be superlimiting, but anyway.
So I have a gateway offer,similar to your strategic spark,
(11:50):
called the Branding Roadmap,where I start with a 90-minute
interview.
I have all these questionsabout where someone's been,
where they are now, where theywant to go, their target
audience.
But the real meat of thatinterview, the part that I come
back to over and over again whenI'm working on the brand and
messaging, is the questionsabout their target clients' pain
points and the problems thatthey solve and how they're
(12:12):
uniquely positioned to behelpful.
So I wrote down a few promptsthat are sort of a distillation
of the questions I ask from mybranding roadmap that I think
are most helpful in figuringthis out and how best to
position yourself as apainkiller with your website
copy.
So I think you want to askwhat's the emotional state of
(12:37):
your target client when theycome looking for you, what
frustrations are theyexperiencing right now?
What changes after they workwith you, what becomes possible,
what problem goes away?
And I think focusing on theemotions how are they feeling
before they work with you andhow are they feeling after is
really powerful, and that's it'shopping into those emotions,
(12:59):
which is how you connect withyour client and make them really
want to work with you.
And going back to yours, it'sjust, it is really emotional.
Imagine you're the only choicefor your ideal customer.
You really feel that when youread that, and then it's
possible, that that sense ofhope, even without gigantic
marketing budgets and huge teams.
I just love how you tap intoagain, like you tap into their
(13:21):
fear that they don't have a bigenough marketing budget.
So you're with just those threesimple sentences, you're
hitting all those points.
What are their fears?
How do they feel now?
How are they going to feelafter working with you?
And just feel that sense ofrelief.
And so the idea with all ofthis is that they're going to
read that, those opening linesin your homepage, and they're
going to feel relief.
They're going to say, oh, shegets it, she understands what
(13:43):
I'm going through and she'sgoing to help me.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, and one thing that I want to just mention on
that is I'm taking objectionslike the objections that I would
get on a sales call.
I don't have a team to be ableto run this and making sure that
it's woven into my messaging,so I'm addressing them ahead of
time.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Yes, absolutely so.
Yeah, what I like to do is inthat first main hero banner on
the homepage is have a couple ofsimple lines, like you have,
speaking to a little bit of painand the solution, always
drilling down on the solutionand the outcome.
And then in the next sections,people are afraid to talk about
(14:27):
a pain point and they want it toall be rainbows and put an A
before they wouldn't meet youand yeah, but it really.
People really do want to feelheard and understood.
The second banner I think it'sreally important to speak to
your target client's pain pointsin a couple of sentences.
Don't hang out there too long.
Just a couple sentences sayingyou get it and then go straight
(14:49):
in to the solution that you'regoing to provide and how you're
the person to solve theirproblems.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yes, yeah, I agree with you that a lot of people
are afraid and, honestly,messaging can lean too much into
the pain.
There is a too far on that, soyou have to really toe the line
to make it effective, withoutlike wallowing in the problem.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Well, again, I think you do that really well on your
website because it's reallybrief but it's effective.
You say long sales cycles,missed opportunities and burnout
are done.
So you just in that onesentence, you name three
possible pain points peoplemight be feeling, and then the
next paragraph, you go straightinto how you are going to fix it
.
And that's exactly how I liketo do it, where you just touch
(15:39):
on it briefly, show that youcare, that you understand, and
then show how you're going tomake it better.
So you say, with a tinymarketing approach, you know
exactly what your customer caresabout, how to talk about it and
how to reach them, and togetherwe're going to work this out,
how to talk about it and how toreach them, and together we're
going to work this out.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, yeah, and it also shows like empathy.
I have been there, I understandwhere you're coming from and
I've worked with people that aredealing with this too and
brought them to the other side.
So I think that everybodylistening has to get less afraid
of talking about the pain thatthey're going through, because
that might be all they feel inthat moment.
They might not understand yetthe solution that would get them
(16:17):
to the other side, or what theother side even looks like.
You have to think about thephase that they're in
emotionally.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yeah, yeah.
And also going back to thinkingabout those homepages where
it's a picture of the serviceprovider and then just hi, I'm
Caitlin and I do these awesomethings.
It also reminds me that I thinkthat you want to think of every
section of your website as aselling opportunity.
So even the about page whereyou're talking about yourself
(16:45):
still should be.
Here's my story.
But this is how that's helpfulfor you.
This is how my story and myexpertise and all the awesome
things I can do.
This is why it's important toyou and this is how it's going
to help you and still help youget the result that you want.
So I think every section shouldbe referring back to your
target client in some way.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, yeah.
I like to look at about pagesas almost like a case study of
like this is what I went throughand how I got to the other side
, and now I can do that for you.
Yes, yeah, that's a really goodway to look at it.
Have any like specificframeworks that someone could
work through for their aboutpage?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
for the about page.
Um.
Well, so I I really um, there'sso much on linkedin um about
you know, ai taking over andbeing a disaster, but I think
it's such a great brainstormingI love me, I yeah, it's a great
way to just get some ideas outthere, and so I like to use ai
from the beginning, and so ifyou start with the home page and
you've already put in you knowif you're trying, if you start
with the homepage and you'vealready put in you know if
you're trying, if you use AI, tostart brainstorming some
headlines and some copy for theproblem results section or
(17:58):
website.
You've already got some greatcontent in there.
And now here I want to remindyou about the problems that my
target clients might be facing.
How does my story help mytarget client and can you weave
together a bio that brings inthese different touch points, so
(18:22):
my story and then how it canhelp my clients' lives improve?
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, that's a good way to look at it.
It's storytelling, but you'repulling your ideal client
through that story.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yes, yeah, and I think the important thing with
AI, too, is to really look at itas a tool and not the end-all
be-all not the writer here, so Ithink that that's the key and
to use it for ideas.
What I love about it the most isthat, because of AI, I never am
staring at a blank page, sothere's none of that banging my
(18:58):
head against the wall because Ican't think of the right word
situation.
So it can help me just iteratequickly and usually get me where
I want to go or just give methe idea to write the thing
myself.
But it is just really helpfulto just throw spaghetti at the
wall and figure out whichmessaging resonates and go from
there.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Yeah, if you, like you were saying that you
interview your clients ahead oftime and I interview my clients'
customers, if you can keepthose transcripts and put them
in there, that will help a lottoo, because now you're feeding
the information to the AI andit's able to give you an output
that makes much more sense thanit would if you're just, you
(19:37):
know, giving a prompt.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
It's true, yeah, it's , yeah, it needs.
It's still the AI still needs alot of handholding and guiding,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
It's not like I think of AI as a workhorse.
It's not creative, it's notstrategic, but it is a really
cheap assistant and it will do alot of things for you, but it
won't do the brain work becauseit's using information that
already exists in the world.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yes, and so then, with every time I enter in
anything, I always remind it nojargon, no cliches.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, you can set your settings too, so it never
does any of that.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yes, but I do find it's still so easy to throw
stuff in.
I do feel like I have to remindit.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
I have to reteach too .
I create a lot of custom GPTsand sometimes I'm like I think
that you've forgotten what Iteach you.
Yes, let's relearn it.
Can you go back to the sourcefiles and relearn this?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yes, yeah, you have to still be really vigilant.
And it is interesting,everyone's saying it's just
going to get better and better.
But if we keep creating moreand more generic content with it
, is it going to get better andbetter?
It's going to get more generic.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
That's valid.
I think the better you are atengineering your GPTs, the
better the output will be.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
But again, that puts you in the creative and the
strategic seat, while the AI isthe workhorse, right, right
right, because I worry about theyoung people, because I'm an
old lady and I learned to writein the nineties and so I already
know how to write, I alreadyknow how to think, and so, yeah,
I don't.
I have a teenage son and Idon't know how that's going to
(21:18):
work out for him if he'slearning to write now with chat
GPT as his assistant.
I don't know.
It'll be interesting to see.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yeah yeah, my kids are learning how to use AI right
now in school.
That's like one of the thingsthat's right.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, that's great.
My kid is not.
We were just talking about thatat breakfast the other day.
They're not.
They're very head in the sandat my kid's high school.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Crazy.
I know Everybody who's so likeanti-AI.
I'm like you evolve or die,that's just how it is, and AI
it's a good day, so evolve ordie.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I completely agree, but luckily, for now, it still
does need us and it still doesneed our strategic minds and to
know what to feed it.
And so that's where theseprompts come in is making sure
that you keep referring back tothe emotions and you know these
sorts of ideas that still ahuman needs to tell it to do.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yeah, it's humans.
Buying and messaging is allabout psychology and
understanding the processsomeone is going through
emotionally, as they're goingthrough a problem and needing to
get to the other side of it.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, it's true.
Are these similar prompts thatyou use when you're doing your
marketing messaging?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, pretty similar.
I definitely feed in thetranscripts and I pre-built the
custom GP3s, so the way I like,the output is already done.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
But the prompts are pretty similar.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah, yeah.
And what do you?
Have you noticed somethingsimilar with service provider
websites, with how they'remissing sales opportunities in
their copy?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yes, yes, I do.
I think you're right that somany people are just looking at
other people's sites and copyingwhat they see or their template
site and they just put in thatas the messaging.
So they assume that that's whatit's supposed to be.
But well, it's definitely notRight yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, and I think people also focus too much on
just the aesthetics of a websiteand they want, or the logo, and
they want, you know, a reallycool logo and a really flashy,
cool site.
And it's interesting to me howmany websites for designers I
see that are gorgeous but don'thave any really any messaging at
all.
They're just, you know, thehomepage will just have their
(23:54):
logo doing something fancy, yeah, and they don't say anything,
and I think that's aninteresting choice.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
It's probably less of a choice and more of like.
That's the world they live in.
Yeah, and I suppose it's almostshowcasing their skill set with
that.
Yeah, I suppose it's almostshowcasing their skill set with
that.
But it's a missed opportunitynot having messaging that's
going to sell for you, becauseit would basically be like a
(24:20):
portfolio site Like.
This is what I can do Insteadof showing people the journey
that you'll take them on, right?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
right.
I just think a lot of websitesare just sitting there gathering
dust, not doing much for people.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Often, oftentimes, people are like I have a website
but don't go to it.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I hear that a lot.
I hear that a lot yeah, a lotof embarrassment of websites,
but also a lot of people whodon't even know that their
websites aren't selling for thembecause they're pretty.
And so a website can bebeautiful, but then if it's not
clear what they do or whothey're serving, then it's still
not going to be effective.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yeah, yeah.
A lot of times I'll talk topeople and they'll think that,
well, just websites are dead.
It's not my website inparticular.
It's that people are finding mein different ways, but the
reason that that is working forthem is because their website
isn't working for them, right.
So people have to find them.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
other ways there's no other choice, right, because I
think people are still going towebsites.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
They absolutely are.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Validate authority.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I can look at my analytics and tell you 100%
people are going to my websiteand I'm getting direct leads
from it weekly.
It's not websites.
That's the problem.
It's your messaging thatdoesn't explain what you do.
That's the problem.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
The other thing that I think is really important on
your homepage is to have reallystrong testimonials.
Maybe we'll talk about that fora second, Because I think
another thing that peoplethere's a way also to help to
give your clients prompts whenthey're writing testimonials.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Ooh, let's hear it.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, because I think you know there's so many
lackluster testimonials thatjust say you know, caitlin was
amazing, I love working for her,but there's when I end every
project I have an exit interviewwhere I ask people specific
questions about what it was liketo work with me and I found
(26:29):
that it helps people write moreinteresting testimonials.
And so a big question, a bigimportant question to ask is
yeah, how do you think?
Well, so for me it's my ROI.
Stuff is a little bit hardbecause it depends a lot on
marketing.
But a big question is you know,how do you think this brand
(26:51):
will be beneficial to yourbusiness?
Or how do you feel now that youhave this new brand, and how is
this brand going to change howyou go out and sell?
And so asking really specificquestions about how your service
will impact your client andtheir business is really helpful
in getting strongertestimonials that are more
(27:13):
specific and they can still beresults-oriented and
outcome-focused.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I really like that.
I can't remember who Iinterviewed I wish I did, but I
don't and but they were tellingme about a trick that they use
for testimonials.
That's brilliant.
So they do an exit interviewlike that and then they will
write a couple differenttestimonials for them and send
(27:38):
them to the client and say youknow, change these however you
want.
But if you want to use these on, you know, google, my Business
or whatever it is, they collectreviews to adjust it as you want
.
But then it takes out that thisis homework aspect of it and
you're using their words becauseit came from their exit
(27:59):
interview.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
That's a really good idea.
The other one I just rememberedis that I like to ask what
hesitations people had beforehiring me, because then it's
nice if in their testimonialthey can actually speak to an
objection that one of my clientsmight have.
That's smart.
So, yeah, I get a lot oftestimonials that say things
like I didn't think I had thebudget to pay for a new website,
but I'm really glad that Idecided to do it.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, that is so smart.
Everybody take notes on thatone.
I want you to ask about theobjections that they had,
because it's very likely thatother people had those ones and
more will have them.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yes, and then the other one is why did you decide
to work with me and how did youovercome that hesitation?
That's a helpful one to knowalso.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Like why were they considering not working with you
?
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, Well, so if I start out, my first question is
what hesitations did you havebefore hiring?
But then the second question isthen, what made you decide to
work?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, that's smart and all of that.
You can also use the exitinterview information to write
little case stories that you canuse on LinkedIn.
It's true.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, it's all really valuable information to have.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, and you can use that information for your
messaging later, like if you'rereinvigorating your messaging on
your website.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, and yeah, and it's.
That's one of the.
I don't know if you do this,but it's one of the problems
with being having doing this fora living is that I'm always
tweaking and I never satisfy I'mthe tweaking queen.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Are you kidding me?
Yes, I have that problem, youkidding me?
Yes, I have that problem, Ijust need to just let it sit.
But yeah, yes, it's true, but Irecord absolutely every meeting
I have.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
So I have so many good, valuable insights from
that.
I can't help that.
I know, I know.
Yeah, I think we're both, yeah,perfectionist tendencies, want
to always get it just right.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
I feel like that's probably most entrepreneurs.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Probably when in entrepreneurs particularly.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I have found that we are definitely a little more
type A.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Yes, I think that's probably true.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Okay, so let's talk about the elements of a
successful conversion-focusedhomepage.
We have testimonials that wewant to include.
We have the head in the suburbthat touches on the pain and the
transformation, the outcome.
What else do we need?
(30:38):
Transformation, the outcomewhat else?
Speaker 2 (30:41):
do we need?
So, yeah, so I like to startwith yes, I start with the main
hero banner with headline andsubhead that speaks to the
target client's pain points,outcome, another section on
problem results, and then I liketo be really explicit about the
exact services you're providing.
(31:02):
So to the point we were talkingabout earlier, where you can go
to a lot of these websites.
You don't know what they do.
So, just in case they've read,you know these two sections of
copy and they still aren'tcrystal clear on what you do.
I like to then have a sectionthat basically lists these are
my offerings.
So I'm trying to think of anexample here I'm going to pull
(31:26):
up.
So, for example, I just did awebsite recently for a woman who
does brand strategy consulting,and so the main banner says
reclaim your voice, expand yourinfluence, which is a little bit
of the vague aspirational thing, but then the subhead is very
(31:47):
specific I help accomplishedleaders find the words to be
themselves, show it fully andcreate the future they want,
because success and authenticityaren't mutually exclusive.
The next session goes into painpoints and solution, and then oh
, and then she was worked a lotof high profile clients.
So social proof is always great.
So for her, we have a lot oflogos of the clients that she's
(32:09):
worked with for social proof,and then we have a list of her
specific offerings.
So she has executive presenceand personal brand coaching,
team workshops, personal brandbootcamps, strategic consulting
and speaking engagements, and soeach of those link out to the
(32:30):
respective service pages.
People can go exactly where theyget that information, more
information, and actually so Ihave it set up in an accordion
menu so they're listed, but youcan also open up the menu to see
a little bit more, to see wait,do I really want that?
Is that the service I need?
But just getting reallyspecific?
(32:50):
And then I have testimonials,sign up for email newsletter, of
course, and I like to put thatin the footer of every page so
that people really see it.
And then the footer don'tsnooze on the footer.
The footer is where you canhave some good SEO information
and some more information aboutwhat specifically you do, and
it's a great place to have alittle roundup of all the stuff
that's been on the whole page.
(33:11):
So for her, we have empoweringaccomplished leaders to
articulate their value andexpand their influence, personal
brand coaching, strategicconsulting and keynote speaking
that transforms how you show up,so it's good for SEO.
It's also just an extrareminder oh, this is what she's
offering and this is how she'sgoing to help you.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
That's smart.
That is something I'm missing.
I definitely snooze on myfooter.
Oh yeah, Don't snooze on yourfooter.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Those are the main elements of the homepage, and I
think the other thing I'verealized recently is that you
can have a full site in onescrolling page.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
I was just going to ask about that.
I love a one-page website, butI wanted your opinion.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
I absolutely think that a lot of server providers
can get away with a one-pagewebsite and you can tell a
really compelling story in justone page, and what's nice about
it is it makes you getpagewebsite and you can tell a
really compelling story in justone page.
And what's nice about it is itmakes you get really specific
and you don't have all thoseextra words to sort of rest on
Like you have to like.
Every word has to count and soit can be really impactful.
(34:16):
And, yeah, I've done a coupleof them and I think it's a great
way to go for service providers.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
And it's just easier to navigate.
People do not like large sitemaps that they have to figure
out where to go to.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Yeah, and I don't know if this is true for your
site, but I noticed when I lookat the analytics for my site
people don't go a lot of places,they hang out on the homepage
and then they'll look at my mainportfolio page, but no one's
clicking into my individualportfolio pieces, so I used to
spend all this time doing theseelaborate case studies for all
my portfolio pieces At least.
(34:53):
No one goes there, so they justsort of they glance at the
portfolio page and then somepeople go to the about page.
A lot of people don't even goto the about page, so most
people are spending most oftheir time on the homepage.
So the more stuff you could jamonto your homepage, the better.
So I have a separate page fortestimonials on my site, but I
also have them on the homepage,just because a lot of people
(35:14):
don't go to that testimonialpage.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
True, I had to pull up my analytics when you were
talking about it.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
So let's see.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Let's see where people are going.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Mostly, mostly home, and I'll bet your services.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Absolutely.
Home is number one by like along shot, yeah.
And then my content section,the learn from the learn section
, and that's where I get a lotof my SEO.
So that makes sense.
They're the ones coming fromgoogle.
And then tiny marketing club isnext and my newsletter is after
(35:49):
that yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
How about your about page?
Is that getting much traffic?
Nope dink, yeah, yeah, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yeah, it gets less than everything else, even like
individual blog pages, it getsless than that.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah, yeah.
So I guess that's a goodargument to have a little bit
about yourself on the homepagetoo.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
But just my homepage is quadruple, my second highest
page, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah.
So you want to have a lot onyour homepage, but you want it
to all be concise and you wantto also avoid walls of words.
I see a lot of websites withjust so many words.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
That is true and that is where I need to.
I need to add it all the timebecause I'm a writer, I write a
lot.
And then I'm like because I'm awriter, I write a lot, and then
I'm like, sadly, cutting,cutting, cutting, cutting.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Yeah, no, it's really important because people can't
digest too much information atonce.
So you want it to be easy andhave hierarchy of words.
So make sure you have clearheadings, subheads, textheads.
Yes, that's true, so that it'seasy.
So I mean, ideally you can eventell, you can even read the
(37:08):
whole story of your website justgoing down and reading the
headlines.
Yeah, you can get a sense justreading the headlines that's
really smart.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
That's a smart way to put it.
Okay, now I want to make editsto my sharing is really good.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
I got really fired up as martinikney website.
I was like, oh good, sarah is,of course, doing everything
exactly how I would do it,because the other thing you do
well here's on the subject ofwalls of words.
You start with really short,easy digest bits of copy, so to
get people in and then, oncethey're invested as they're
going down your page, youactually do have some longer
(37:44):
bits, but you're only going downthere if you're already
interested.
So then you're going to, you'regoing to, you've got already.
Once you've got people'sattention, then you can give
them more copy, because thenthey're ready for it and they're
asking for it because they'rescrolling, but you want
everything up at the top to besnappier, yeah, yeah, yeah, be
snappier, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
I think that absolutely everything, including
like novels, read better whenyou have amazing hooks, like the
first line of every chaptershould be a hook that makes
someone just want to dive in.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's interesting.
On LinkedIn some people mockthe sort of I don't know if it's
recent the convention onLinkedIn where people are
writing with crazy short like,yeah, just the sentence, but it
is just so much easier to read,the eye has places to rest.
Yes, it's a whole big block ofcopy.
I get really overwhelmed.
I can't deal with it.
My brain short circuits.
I need those breaks.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
I'm with you.
I'm with you when I see that myeyes just glaze off to the side
, not because it's bad content,but because it's hard to read.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Hard to read, and same with your website.
You just need it to be easy toread.
Yeah, and easy to read quickly.
People are, especially ifthey're on their phones.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
They're scrolling, they're going fast, they're not
going to hang up and, speakingof phones, make sure when you
have a new website launchingthat you're copying what it
looks like on your phone,because I'll find that, like
dang, this looked normal on awebsite, but that's some chunky
copy right there when I'mscrolling on my phone.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yes, and a huge thing is Squarespace is not doing a
good job with their mobile inmaking sure that faces are still
showing up in photos.
They need to have come up withsome AI tool to be able to
determine that a face is stillin a photo.
Yeah, because I've seen a lotof people's websites where when
you go to mobile, their facesare cut off in all their photos.
(39:36):
So there's a little inSquarespace.
There's a little toggle betweendesktop and mobile.
Yeah, I use WordSpace too Ialways check, make sure you
check and make sure you checkevery time you make a change to
your site, because it can getwonky again once you make a
change.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
There is most definitely a chance that my
website is wonky at this pointfrom changes I've made.
But yes, your desktop to mobile.
It's crazy how different it canlook on mobile if you're not
checking and you can edit it.
So it's only the mobile versionthat gets that edit.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
I mean the tool is great.
Now People, I think, justaren't using it.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm using Squarespace too,and I'm always toggling between
those, and at first I was afraidlike if I make this edit here,
is it going to look like crap ona desktop.
Yeah, but it doesn'tInteresting.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
If you make a change in the desktop view it can mess
up mobile, but once you make achange in mobile it almost never
goes back.
There are a couple things youcan do that can go back and
impact desktop, but usually whatyou do in the mobile view isn't
impacting desktop.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yeah, I have not noticed that, but that's good to
know.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yeah, I mean always check, but it's usually fine.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Yeah, Before we wrap up, I wanted to talk a little
bit more about that thecombination of social proof and
testimonials on your website.
Yeah, One thing that I love butnever looks quite nice on a
website is the screenshots fromyour client wins.
Is there a good way to displaythat?
Speaker 2 (41:21):
um, that's so interesting.
I I don't do that, but I knowI've seen it.
I'm thinking, um, do you knowErica Schneider?
She might have that on herwebsite.
Um, I wonder if I can pull upquickly.
I know I've seen it on LinkedInand I, I mean, this is where
you know, maybe my need toalways have everything beautiful
(41:41):
gets in my way, um, because, ohno, I know she does something
different, never mind, um, Imean, there's probably.
I do not do that, I do.
I like the idea of it.
I think that there could be away, um, maybe to put the
screenshot on a solid within asolid box, so that it's framed
(42:04):
nicely or maybe like on a mobileframe.
Oh yeah, on a screen.
That's a good idea as a mock-up.
Yeah yeah, because I always,you know, copy and paste into a
nicer format.
But I've been seeing that moreand more on LinkedIn, where
people are just posting thescreenshots and super cool, it
just looks, it's so authentic.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
That's exactly why I like it is that there is no
messing around.
This is real and I like theauthenticity of it, but I just
don't think it looks pretty.
I want to figure out a prettyway to do it.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
I know you know that's a good challenge.
I have not tried to do it.
I'm just looking at anothersite that would maybe have that.
No, she doesn't either.
Sometimes people who just havecooler, edgier sites I feel like
could maybe get away with it.
But I just went to a couplethinking maybe they were doing
that and they aren't.
Yeah, I haven't tried that, butI think it's a good idea to try
(43:00):
it and I can imagine if you dothat but you do it near the
bottom of your site and you haveit against a nice background.
It's okay if it's not tied inperfectly aesthetically with the
rest of the site.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Yeah, and I suppose if the screenshot is the same
size for all of them it's notgoing to be ugly.
Yeah, I mean.
I say it's ugly, but I am muchmore likely to buy from someone
where I'm seeing the screenshotsthan I'm seeing pretty
testimonials.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yeah, I mean if you're looking at pros and cons,
the pros of that authenticitymight outweigh the cons of it
not being as beautiful.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
I mean, that's certainly people who have taken
my money.
That's what they haveexperienced.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Yeah, yeah, because it's true, I do.
I mean, whenever I see those onLinkedIn, they resonate a lot.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Yeah, I'm like okay, that's a real conversation.
That's a real person who had areal result.
I believe this.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Yes, yeah, and there's something really
impactful about seeing genuineenthusiasm in text or email form
.
Yeah, and there's somethingreally impactful about seeing
genuine enthusiasm in text oremail form.
Yeah, it's real.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
I do too.
I think that's a really goodidea.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
So you told me, before we hit record, that you
are launching a new newsletter.
Can you tell our audience?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
about it.
I am launching a new newsletter.
I've been telling Sarah, I'vebeen wanting to do this for many
, many months and I'm finallydoing it, hopefully launching
next week, which means hopefullyby the time this airs it'll be
launched.
So my website isliquidformdesigncom and I'm
going to have a sign up thereand I'm actually going to be
producing a little video I'mplanning to make this week that
(44:41):
will have a downloadable chatGPT prompt document about all
the stuff we were actuallytalking about today.
So about how to speak directlyto your target audience and with
a little simple worksheet andsome AI prompts to get you
started.
And then my newsletter.
I want it to be fun and breezyand it's going to be about
(45:05):
branding, but it's also going tobe about being a woman and the
patriarchy and I'm kind of downwith that.
Yeah, every newsletter I'mgoing to have, I'm going to
feature a different womenbusiness owner which I'm really
excited about, and I'm going tohave pop culture I'm interested
in that week.
And a recipe, some sort of easyrecipe, like a weeknight dinner
(45:29):
or my first.
I have a recipe for a singlechocolate chip cookie for those
when you're home alone and youjust really want one chocolate
chip cookie Brilliant?
Yes, I think so.
So anyway, I just I think I'mexcited, I think it's going to
be a fun, it's going to be agood time.
It's going to be.
I want it to be like loose andfun.
(45:49):
It's a vibe.
Hopefully it'll be a vibe andit'll be about branding, but
it'll also be about other stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
I like it.
I like it and especiallyconsidering who your audience is
, it's going to really resonatewith them.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Well, that's the thing.
I just finished this brand thisweek and I work in intensives,
like you do, and so it's just wehave this 90 minute interview
and then three or four meetingsover two days and the level of
connection that I could createwith these client because I just
I just felt like we'd beenthrough something together and
it just felt so good and um, andso the newsletter is also about
that just about connecting aswomen and um, supporting each
other and being there for eachother and I love that.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah, so I'll make sure to have the links for that
in the show notes.
Thank you and just for yourreference, I think this is
probably going to go out in twoweeks.
I have another Massagingpodcast episode that's coming
out on the 7th, so yours willprobably go right after that.
(47:00):
So it's going in a series.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
Okay, good, that'll be good inspiration for me to
get this thing live and going.
I'm on the verge, but yes,thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
All right.
How can people find you onlineand hang out with you virtually?
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Yes, my website is liquidformdesigncom.
I bought that URL 20 years agoand I would advise everyone to
not have a domain that.
That's.
That's so long.
It's really painful.
And um, and I'm on LinkedIn.
Um, my name is Caitlin with a C, Caitlin Lang, and I have a
really good time on LinkedIn.
(47:37):
I'm inspired by Sarah, who wasone of the people who first got
me on there, and it's, I think,and that's, another great place
for community.
I love it a lot.
So those are my two places.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
It's kind of funny how you build like your own
little networking event in everysingle post that you create.
It's like you're pulling peoplein having conversations.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Yes, and there's such an amazing community there of
women entrepreneurs and we allfound each other and it's so
freaking cool.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
I know it is.
I love it so much.
Thank you for joining me today.
Thank you so much, Sarah.
That was really fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Love all things.
Tiny marketing Head down to theshow notes page and sign up for
the waitlist to join the tinymarketing club, where you get to
work one-on-one with me withtrainings, feedback and pop-up
(48:29):
coaching that will help youscale your marketing as a B2B
service business.
So I'll see you over in theclub.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.