April 5, 2023 • 40 mins
Have you ever found yourself at a crossroads, seeking God's will with more questions than answers? On Titans of Transition, I sit down with my former pastor, Roger Thompson, and we share our personal journeys in faith and leadership, addressing those very doubts and challenges. Roger takes us back to his early days in Golden, Colorado, his decision to attend Westmont College, and his pursuit of seminary school, guided by his father's teachings and the inspiring stories of missionaries. Unraveling the complexities of faith, we discuss the unique gifts God bestows on us, and how humility and expectancy helps navigate the Christian life.
Ever wondered how a preacher finds his calling? I share my story, from my deep-rooted church background to my desire to go into camping ministry, and finally my path into becoming a preaching pastor at a tender age of 26. An unexpected move to a dwindling church proved challenging but led me on a path of growth and self-discovery. I also discuss my decision to step away from the church I had served for 26 years when I felt it was time for a new direction. This brought to light the power of giving oneself away in love, and how it helps us to unearth our true gifts.
Life is a journey, not a bullseye. Roger and I delve into this philosophy, exploring how we navigate life without always having the final answer. Through the metaphor of climbing, we ponder on the teachings of God in everyday life and the importance of listening to the wisdom of those around us. Roger shares his personal education journey and reveals the lessons he wished he had learned earlier on. We conclude with the invaluable note on seeking help and leveraging the gifts and talents of others. Tune in for a conversation filled with wisdom, insights, and inspiration for your own journey.
More about Roger-
Roger Thompson is committed to serving pastors and leaders in the communities surrounding Apple Valley. As a trained Man in the Mirror expert in men’s discipleship, Roger guides pastors and leaders through a comprehensive strategy to reach and disciple all of their men because every man discipled impacts a marriage, family, workplace and community. Discipleship changes everything!
Roger Thompson lives in Apple Valley (Minneapolis), MN and serves as the Area Director for the Twin Cities South Coalition for Men’s Discipleship. He was born in Winona Lake, Indiana and grew up in Colorado. After graduating, from Westmont College, and later from Denver Seminary, Roger served as a pastor for forty years. Roger is a speaker for Family Life’s “Weekends to Remember” and has recently authored a book entitled Do the Next Right Thing. Roger enjoys long tandem bike rides with his “stoker”/wife and they have two married daughters with raucous houses full of grandchildren for whom he makes furniture and toys. A marriage metaphor from the tandem: when you pedal in harmony there is twice the power with half the wind resistance. If you are not cooperating there is half the power and twice the resistance!
If you would like Roger to speak at an event or a retreat, please contact him at rogerthompson@maninthemirror.org
Do the Next Right Thing Today webpage.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joe Miller (00:02):
In this episode of Titans of Transition I go back
and talk to a sage resource.
A previous pastor of mine,roger Thompson, joins us today
on Titans.
Brings great wisdom, how toseek God's will for your life,
(00:23):
but it's not a blinding light,as you'll come to learn.
He comes in doing the nextright thing, so let's jump into
it.
First we'll start with whoRoger is and his background
Quite interesting to me.
But if you want to skip ahead,please do lots of wisdom here.
Thanks again for joining me onTitans of Transition.
(00:43):
Pleasure to welcome RogerThompson to Titans of Transition
.
Roger and I have known eachother many years.
Roger was a pastor of a churchI attended for probably 11 years
back in Colorado, stayed intouch throughout the decades And
I had the pleasure of beingable to meet up with Roger and
(01:05):
his wife Joanne, my wife Barband I as they were passing
through our town here in PortCharlotte, florida.
So, roger, welcome to Titans.
Roger Thompson (01:14):
Thank you, joe, good to see you this way and
good to connect with you andshare some thoughts together.
Joe Miller (01:20):
You know I've talked with quite a few people about
transitions in their lives andtheir careers.
These moments when people aresensing that maybe there's a
disquiet in their soul, so tospeak.
They're not sure what the nextmove to make, and it can be
changes thrust upon them, likeall the layoffs we're hearing
about it, or something healthwise it's causing them to make a
(01:42):
change.
Or things could be goingrelatively well, but over time
they sense that they're notgetting all the fulfillment out
of their life that they wouldlike.
I get together with folks andtalk to them about what lessons
they've learned, but for you andour joint faith journey
together, it would beinteresting to connect more with
believers out there who areseeking a closer walk with God
(02:05):
and figure out how we mightnavigate that a little
differently than others.
But before we get into thosespecific details, why don't you
tell us a little bit aboutyourself, starting with, maybe,
high school we don't want to goback to the cradle and how you
got to become a pastor.
Roger Thompson (02:21):
That may take most of our time.
I grew up in a town just westof Denver, colorado, called
Golden, golden, colorado, and Ireally had a Timmy and Lassie
kind of boyhood if you're guestsof that old television show, i
could go anywhere in town.
(02:41):
I had a paper route.
I was really a free kid and itwas just the home for supper
kind of thing in the summertimeAnd I went to high school there
up through my junior year Andthen my dad, who was a pastor,
received a call to anotherchurch in Rialto, california,
which is right next to SanBernardino, which is right next
(03:02):
to Purgatory.
This was 1966, and the FontanaSteel Mill was belching sulfuric
fumes 24-7.
He was driving 400 cubic inchengines.
There was no pollution controland the smog was as thick as a
brown cloud every day.
So I went from a blue skyColorado setting to what I think
(03:26):
was a Purgatorial setting formy last year of high school.
I did okay, but I didn't makeany friends When I had the
opportunity to go to a school, aChristian liberal arts college
in Santa Barbara, california.
I'm not so sure it was a deeplyspiritual decision, as much as
it was an escape.
I was in where I was, and Ialso went there because I wanted
to run, track and cross country.
I walked on to the team thereand went to Westmont College for
(03:50):
four years in Santa Barbara,which I now look back on and say
, oh, that is just the Edenicplace on earth as far as I'm
concerned.
But you can't afford to livethere, that's for sure.
But I ran thousands of miles onthe roads there and competed in
cross country and track andgraduated with a degree in
psychology.
And then I was dating my lastyear, my soon to be wife Joey.
(04:15):
We got married in August of1971.
So that will date me.
I'm in my 75th year.
We got married back before theearth was cooled and they hadn't
invented soft lead and pencils.
Yet The technology that thehigh point of technology at that
time was the IBM Selectrictypewriter, which I envy because
(04:36):
I went from college to Denver,back to Denver and went to
seminary for four years.
How?
Joe Miller (04:42):
did you get there?
Roger Thompson (04:43):
I had grown up in a context where I had an
early faith.
I had an early trust in JesusChrist, who is my savior and
Lord, and I went to many campsand I was listening to my dad
preach every week, and I'd liketo say I'm one of the pastor's
kids who had a great experiencein that regard.
There are some, and along theway there's always this teaching
(05:06):
and the truth that God has aplan for your life, and by that
I don't mean that it's a rigid,deterministic plan, like he
knows what kind of vegetablesyou should eat tonight for
supper.
He knows that, but he doesn'tdetermine that.
But God has a plan for us Andhe also.
We read later in the NewTestament that he's given us
(05:27):
unique capacities and gifts andnone of us have them all.
So there's a combination ofhumility and expectancy in the
Christian life.
So I grew up hearing tales ofmissionaries and people who had
given their life in greatsacrifice to serve God as he
called them into their life.
I believe my dad did that, mymom did that.
(05:47):
So I grew up with this wholebackdrop of saying I want my
life to count.
And for it to count.
It doesn't mean that Iself-determined.
It means I listen for how Godis calling me, and I believe a
lot of early experiences help usdetermine that or at least we
follow those pathways.
So I had been working at Iactually worked at summer camps
(06:08):
for five summers.
Three of those summers were ata church camp in Big Bear,
california, and I saw the lifetransformation of children and
young people.
They would come on Sundayafternoon, they'd leave Saturday
morning And they would justreally have significant
spiritual steps in their life.
And that happened to me too asa child And as a young adult,
(06:30):
and so I really saw that.
And then I spent two summers ata camp called Sea and Summit,
which was a lot like outwardbound And we took delinquent
boys from the camps ofCalifornia minimum security
camps And we would take them on21-day expeditions.
It was a stress camp.
They were put what they thoughtthey were being put in danger
(06:53):
in exposed situations in thewater and also in the high seas.
We would take them on a 14-dayhigh Sierra hike, and that's a
long time to live on dehydratedfood.
And these kids have never beenout of the city.
And so we put them in all kindsof stress situations to build
teamwork, to build trust, toshow them men that they could
trust, but also to teach themdiscipline.
(07:14):
And I realized from thatexperience and I loved it
because I was athletic, i lovedthe outdoors, it was just
everything I wanted to do.
But I realized from thatexperience that they asked me
the right question.
I could probably give them ananswer from the Bible, but they
weren't asking those questions.
And I realized that I didn'thave the knowledge to bring a
(07:36):
worldview to a kid who wasraised in the barrios of
Pasadena and didn't have a dad.
And I felt I need more biblicalknowledge, i need a broader
worldview.
And so that's ultimately whattook me to seminary, thinking
that I would go into campingministry.
That's interesting Which wouldhave been a total disaster.
(07:57):
Why is that?
Because when you're a campcounselor, you're out doing
stuff with the kids.
When you're the camp manager,you're worried about septic
systems and insurance and highreview.
Yeah, all this stuff, i wouldhave been terrible at that.
So what happened is My wife andI were newly married.
(08:18):
We visited a small church thatwas being restarted And there
were about 40 people there thefirst time.
And when we went to this church, we were immediately welcomed
and we just sensed an energythere.
So we began attending there andthe pastor there expected this
church to grow.
He had a philosophy of ministrythat said churches should grow,
(08:39):
and both our dads were pastorsand they were pastors of typical
small town churches of about200, and the new family was a
family that came three years ago.
So we were in this church andit was every Sunday.
People were joining this church.
Joe Miller (08:53):
Was this in Denver?
Roger Thompson (08:54):
This was Bear Valley.
Joe Miller (08:55):
I was gonna say, was this Bear Valley?
Yeah, it was in back in the day, is that Frank?
Roger Thompson (08:59):
Frank Tillipon And that just excited us
basically said hey, how about ifyou take the junior high group?
And I said I don't knowanything about junior hires?
And he said I don't either.
He had the what I call theDarius method of leadership
development.
Maybe your listeners willrecall the story of Daniel in
the lion's den And Daniel's orat the time his king was named
(09:24):
Darius and Daniel was gonna bepunished for worshiping God, and
so he threw him in the lion'sden for three days and he came
back three days later and Danielwas still alive.
So I view this as Frank'smethod of leadership development
.
He threw me into the juniorhigh, came back a few days later
and said you're still alive,you've got the job.
(09:46):
So that was really even thoughI'd grown up in the church.
That was really my firstincidence of needing to show up
every week with something tofeed people who weren't in my
family, and junior hiresespecially.
And I went from that to apart-time youth director and I
worked at different jobs andmaintenance during seminary
(10:07):
during the summer so that Icould pay for my school.
And one thing led to anotherand I came on staff in that
church but I had no desire topreach.
I didn't think I was gonna be apreacher.
I'm basically an introvert.
I've gotten over that, but Ireally was very shy.
Joe Miller (10:21):
You'd be amazed at how many introverts would be
considered to be in the publicforum, and we used to have a
view of introverts as being justshy.
But it's much more complex thanthat, really.
If we come to find out that youneed to get away and recharge
your energy, yes, yeah.
Roger Thompson (10:41):
And all this time by the way, that's part of
the reason that I've run all mylife is I can be alone.
When I do that, i recharge,doing that.
I had a terrible experience inseminary in what is called
preaching class.
It was very sterile, veryartificial And I thought, okay,
i won't do that, i'll just workwith young adults.
I'll work with young marriedpeople, i'll be the utility
infielder on the staff.
(11:02):
And so I came on staff of thatchurch in my final year of
seminary when I was about 25 andjust did all kinds of other
things.
But then Frank came to me abouta year later and said hey,
we're bursting at the seams.
We've got two services already,we need a third one and I think
it's your turn.
So this is the story of my lifeInteresting.
(11:26):
I was on the first time staff atthis church camp.
The camp had never been openbefore.
We were the first staff.
I was on the first staff ofseeing some at this stress camp.
And now here I am in asituation where I'm the first
pastor that a lot of people aregoing to experience at this
church.
So I've often been called intosituations where there isn't
(11:49):
much of a precedent and I don'thave any experience, and so I've
been pulled in the side door ofleadership And I'm not the guy
who would say give me the ball,give me the ball.
You know what I mean.
Let me take the shot.
But God, in his providence, hasalways put people in my life
who have been pulling me towardssomething, saying here's
something we feel you can do,and sometimes it was desperation
(12:11):
.
Other times it was perhapsseeing something in me that I
couldn't see myself, and so Ibecame a preaching pastor at
about the age of 26 and wasthere for another seven or eight
years, and then I went acrosstown another first time.
(12:32):
Situation to a church that hadbeen on a glide path for 20
years had gone from 600 peopledown to under 200 people.
Most of them had white hair andI was 32 years old, and they
called me and said would youconsider being our pastor?
Joe Miller (12:50):
I met you.
Roger Thompson (12:51):
Yeah, and that's where I met you, joe, and I was
essentially sent there with theblessing of Frank and the
church I was serving, along withabout 40 people who came with
me.
Joe Miller (13:02):
There's some things that coming out here that are
bubbling up.
You used the word being called.
You weren't seeking thesethings You had.
The other thing that I think ofis that someone saw something
in you and posed the opportunity.
I'll call it to you.
There were mentors in your life, trusted individuals who
(13:27):
challenged you.
Yes, and I think the biblicalexamples that I think of.
It's interesting how God usespeople who don't themselves seem
equipped.
I think of Moses, for exampleand there's many examples where
God uses people who don't think.
I mean Peter.
Roger Thompson (13:47):
I identify with Timothy in the.
Testament, timothy was theprotégé of Paul, and Timothy was
very differently wired than theguy who turned the world upside
down named the apostle Paul.
And it's obvious, as you readPaul's letters to Timothy, that
Timothy needed Paul'sencouragement.
(14:08):
He needed Paul to paint thepicture of here's who you are
Fan into flame the gift that youhave.
You don't recognize it yourself, but I see it in you.
And so you're right, joe,there've been mentors in my life
that we probably didn't calleach other that, but I was
watching them, i was trustingthem.
And the other thing I thinkthat's a thread of commonality
(14:29):
here is that all this has beendone in community.
My wife and I have always beenin community.
We haven't just been employeesat a church, we've lived among
the people, and so I think whatyou're also hearing is I think
it's probably encouraging to alot of people, because a lot of
religious people, especiallypeople out of my sort of
(14:52):
background, have what we wouldcall a Damascus road experience,
which goes back to the callingof the apostle Paul, when he's
struck down by a light on theroad And he does a total 180
just within minutes.
And often people think that'sthe normative experience of
(15:14):
everybody who either goes intoministry or makes a significant
life change.
But I've never had thatexperience.
That's been God and people andmentors and community pushing my
compass needle over two degreesat a time until I find myself
going 90 degrees to where I washeaded in the first place, and
(15:37):
it's been progressive.
Maybe what that says is I'm aslow learner.
I don't know if oblivious istoo strong a word.
I'm a bit dull to step into myown strengths.
I'm a high duty person, i'm ahigh loyal person, and so for
much of my ministry life I didthe things that nobody else
(15:57):
would do.
But in doing that I also didn'tallow myself to grow in the
areas where I had strengths.
In other words, i was aweakness fixer in myself, and so
I've needed people to hold amirror up to me and say don't
you see this?
This is what you bring when youcome in the room.
This is what you bring, and Igo really.
Joe Miller (16:19):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I see that's a universal thingthat I've seen, regardless of
where the person is in terms offaith I think that is a
universal thing I get wheneverI've coached people is they are
oblivious to their strengths.
And the other thing that Ithink it was taught from the
management and leadership gurusout there was that if someone
(16:45):
was weak in certain areas,that's where you needed to focus
.
You need to bring them up tosome sort of baseline level of
acceptability, and The amount ofenergy it takes for an
individual to make up for theweaknesses is crazy.
They exhaust themselves.
(17:05):
The other thing is it doesn'thave the return on the
investment.
There's no reward in it.
There's no reward in it.
It's just getting to sufficient.
Roger Thompson (17:15):
Yeah, and even if you do it, even if you
complete a project or you don'twant to do it again, No, you
don't want to do it again, andsometimes other people don't
want you to do it again either.
Joe Miller (17:24):
Exactly, Exactly.
So that's interesting Yeah.
Roger Thompson (17:29):
I've been through several significant
transitions, all of them by myown choosing, in the sense that
I was the one who moved intothem.
I haven't been fired, thank God, yet, but I have transitioned
out of several ministries andall those transitions were
difficult in terms of justdetermining is this the time?
Joe Miller (17:47):
Yeah, I don't remember and we don't need to
get into the details, but Iremember when you left the
church that we were together atand you went to the church in
Minnesota, Apple Valley, Berean.
That was extremely difficultfor you And I think it was.
You felt the call, There's noquestion, but that strong sense
(18:09):
of duty going back to what youwere just talking of made it
really hard for you to gothrough that.
Yeah, Painful.
Roger Thompson (18:17):
And I think for me and I've shared this with
other people in transition itwasn't hard for me to know that
I was feeling called or I wantedto go to the new place, but it
was hard for me to know am Idone here, Am I done at this
place?
And traveling to a new placewas easy at that point.
Yeah, And, by the way, Joe, Ididn't leave because of you.
Joe Miller (18:38):
Thank you So relieved.
So there's definitely somelessons there that we've
unpacked.
but now am I correct in?
you said that you haven't beenfired yet, but at this point
you're going through anothertransition as well, because you
were on sabbatical but youretired from that church at this
point In Minnesota There's abit of a story behind that.
Roger Thompson (18:59):
Oh no, okay, back about, basically about
2013,.
I would have been 64, 65 yearsold, and not because of my age,
but because I felt like whenyou've passed her to church for
26 years or whatever it was, atthat point the church begins to
look like you in some ways.
That might be good if you havegood character, but it also
(19:21):
begins to look like youdemographically.
And I realized, even though Idon't feel I didn't feel my age,
feel 20 years younger.
Still some young adult walkingthrough the doors, going, hey,
look at the old guy up in thepulpit.
And I wasn't feelingdownhearted about that, i just
felt like that was a factor.
I felt like, also, the churchneeded to go some places that,
(19:44):
frankly, i wasn't ready tomuscle up and do it.
There were areas where I wasnot really gifted and good at.
And, thirdly, i felt like therewas another adventure, another
assignment that God had waitingfor me.
A meaningful passage ofscripture for me was Joshua,
chapter 14, where Caleb and therest of the children of Israel
(20:08):
finally go into the promisedland.
And Caleb was 40 years old thefirst time he saw it.
But if you remember the storyabout the spies.
The people rejected it.
Caleb and Joshua were the twomen who said, hey, well, we
should go in.
We got a 40 year delay in doingthat, and so he's 85 and he
says to the Lord I'm now 85years old, i'm as strong as I
(20:30):
once was.
Give me this mountain.
I wasn't 85 at the time, but Ifelt like I'm ready for a Caleb
challenge.
And so, anyway, i instigated myown transition.
I wanted to do it when I washealthy.
I wanted to do it when I washealthy spiritually, where the
church was growing and stable.
The staff was solid.
The other board was totallywith me on that.
(20:52):
So I wanted to transition.
I didn't know exactly to what,and I thought initially I would
fade away slowly and the new guywould come in and I would
mentor him.
But that's not what happened.
Make a long story short I endedup staying at the church half
time, primarily in men'sministry, and then I took on
another ministry half timethrough a ministry called man in
(21:13):
the mirror, which is anationwide discipleship ministry
for men.
So I was doing what I call 260%jobs for about six years And I
really loved it.
It was working with men,discipling men And the pastor
(21:34):
who came behind me was excellentin many ways, but he ran into
some trouble And so he left usunder a cloud, and that was
November 2019.
So the elder board asked me ifI could take a leave of absence
from man in the mirror and comeback to the burial in full time,
(21:54):
and it only took an instant ofthought for me to say of course,
and I thought that would be ayear, maybe a year and a half,
but it ended up being threeyears.
Now we just have brought in anew lead pastor about five or
six months ago, and so I'mcoming now to another transition
point.
I'm still full time here, butit's going to change And I'm
(22:15):
looking forward to it.
I'm looking forward to what mywife calls it, not a retirement,
but just to have a differentrhythm and again try to let go
of some things that occupy mytime, that are perhaps not my
joy, my passion or my strength,and zero in on some things that
I feel are what God wants me todo, what I want to do and the
(22:38):
motivated steps that I have.
Joe Miller (22:42):
So a couple of the transitions.
This comes to mind.
You've mentioned moving in intoa different area, not being
sure whether or not you would begifted in that area or not.
It's a discovery process overthe years, isn't it?
Yes, it is, and some of thosethings have been surprises.
You didn't think you'd be apreaching pastor.
Roger Thompson (23:01):
No, and I think six years plus, and I certainly
didn't think that would be oneof the gifts that people would
identify with me as a strength,i thought, okay, i'll do it, but
I'm probably more of acounselor than a preacher.
Joe Miller (23:14):
There's a side buyer there for those folks listening
in.
Many of us alumni from thechurch in Denver which was
Trinity Baptist, where you gotus through the pandemic, roger,
we were tuning in to your churchat Apple Valley to bring in
Yeah, yeah.
And a friend of mine and Italked weekly and we would be.
(23:36):
Did you see the last one?
Yeah?
Roger Thompson (23:40):
that's a good one.
He really challenged us it wasgreat.
Joe Miller (23:42):
So it's interesting, your gifts, they get confirmed
in practice.
Roger Thompson (23:48):
Here's a statement that you could put in
your show notes if you write itdown, but you can't write it as
fast as I'll say it.
Here's something that I hadunder the glass on my desk when
I was a young pastor a younginsecure pastor.
But I still need this as an old, insecure pastor.
And it said this when yousearch for yourself, you'll
(24:13):
probably find nothing, Notbecause there's nothing to find,
but because you don't knowwhere to look.
Your only hope is to giveyourself away in love and let
others tell you what you had togive.
I think that's a directapplication or paraphrase of
(24:35):
what Jesus said that if you seekyour life, you won't find it,
you'll lose it.
But if you lose your life forthe right things, you'll find it
.
And I think it's also boileddown.
That's how we discover our truegifts, other people who are
honest and who know us.
We need to ask them.
(24:55):
Can you tell me what am Ibringing to the stew?
What happens when I walk in theroom?
What difference am I making?
It's not a selfish question.
I've had to learn that that'snot a selfish question, and it's
also not a question you can askto anybody, because many people
will want to flatter.
You want to make you feel goodfor the wrong reasons.
You want to feel good, but youwant to feel good with the right
(25:16):
input, and I've had severalwake-up calls in my life of men
who said this is what you bring,don't you see that?
And I go nope.
I've been trying to be this andall along.
Here's what you're saying Again.
You can call me a slow study, Idon't know, but for me it's
always been this incremental twodegrees of the compass needle
(25:39):
changing, And I also think thatGod can bless certain gifts at
certain stages of your life thatare needed, And so I don't
think we're just static in termsof we have this one trick that
we do all through our life.
That's not what I'm talkingabout.
Joe Miller (25:59):
That's very interesting.
You did also mention you were ateaching pastor but you viewed
yourself as a counselor.
Is that right?
Yes, i may not know the manyhours that pastors spend in deep
conversations, counseling typeconversations where people are
in turmoil or they're seekingGod's will for them or they're
(26:21):
trying to figure it all out andthey come to you.
In the context of thisdiscussion, i suspect you've had
many conversations about whatshould I do next?
And it's interesting, on theshelf right behind you you have
your book Do The Next RightThing.
Funny how that's placed upthere, funny how that's there.
(26:41):
And we're going through thatstudy actually in our men's
group here in Florida.
It's interesting.
I'm wondering was that birthout of some of these
conversations?
Roger Thompson (26:51):
Absolutely, joe, it was.
I mean people and, by the way,I don't view myself as a
therapist, i view myself more asan interventionist.
At this stage in my life, iprayed for the gift of referral,
the gift of referral.
So I really try to refer peoplewho need good counseling to
(27:11):
someone else.
Partly I just don't have thebandwidth for it.
But this book Do The Next RightThing, this phrase I didn't
invent it, i borrowed it fromsomebody, but I'll take credit
for it.
Now it really came out of.
People will come to me and theywill, in a half an hour, will
unwrap this tangled web, thisstory of struggle and abuse and
(27:36):
defeat And who knows what.
I listen with empathy but,because I'm a pastor, a lot of
times they'll turn to me and saywell, what is God's will?
What does God want me to do?
now?
And I've had to say maybe notquite this bluntly, but I don't
have a clue.
There is no one thing you cando to get yourself out of
(28:01):
bankruptcy court.
There's no one thing you can doto untangle this abusive
relationship.
I can share with you the loveof God.
I'm going to pray with you,i'll hug you if you want me to,
i'll encourage you, but what youneed to do is the next right
thing.
So maybe you need to call yourattorney, maybe you need to make
(28:22):
that phone call and set up anappointment with somebody.
Maybe you need to change theoil in your car.
What's the next right thing?
And I really believe if we dothat and it accumulates, the
horizon begins to change forpeople, including myself.
Well, i don't know exactly whatto do about this transition,
(28:43):
but I can start writing down mythoughts, i can start talking to
people.
I can take a trip to PortCharlotte, florida, and ask my
buddy Joe.
In other words, there's a lotof incremental.
I've said I'm a ragingincrementalist because there are
just so many things.
(29:05):
When you keep pursuing somethingstep by step by step, we walk
with God.
We don't pull vault with GodAnd he takes us at a pedestrian
pace And what happens is thehorizon tends to open up, not
only because of what we discover, but because, i believe, what
(29:25):
God shows us, and it may not bea blinding light, it's just
somebody comes along with newinformation And there you go.
Or help, somebody makes child'splay out of what we thought was
a hopeless snarl of complexity.
So that's what the book isreally about.
How do you walk when you don'thave the final answer?
(29:47):
You just know that it's foggyand you need to do something.
Joe Miller (29:52):
And pulling out.
You call them handholds And Ilove the metaphor, the climbing
metaphor.
It's so powerful that you usein pulling out those lessons
from 2nd Peter 1.
Very powerful.
And this incremental thingconnects with me too, because on
a number of conversations thatI've had with people, there
(30:15):
seems to be this assumption thatwe should know the target, you
know the spot, the bullseye.
What is that one thing that Godwants me to do or that I should
be doing?
And I'll be totally messed upif I don't hit that bullseye.
And life is more like climbinga mountain where you come over
these summits and you thinkyou're going to reach that.
(30:37):
You're going to hit thatbullseye on the next summit, But
you see another it's just ashoulder.
And after you summit three orfour of those shoulders, you
begin to wonder if it's abouthitting the peak or if it's
about the journey.
Yeah, And how you navigate thatjourney.
Roger Thompson (30:53):
Yeah.
Well, i think it's especiallyprominent with Christians that
they feel like there ought to bea simple answer, the whole
thing of what is God trying toteach me?
Well, he is teaching you, butit may not be one lesson.
It may be make the phone call,you know.
(31:16):
Change the way you talk to yourwife, change the tone of the
dinner table conversation, tryto reconnect with your daughter
through a text.
Today, there's a thousandthings that God may be showing
you that you already know how todo.
It's not a blinding light or anew galaxy that is going to drop
on you.
So I don't want to oversimplifyit, or I don't want to be rude
(31:39):
of supernatural power ormiracles, but I think that's the
way most of us need to navigate, so at least that's the way I
do it.
Joe Miller (31:48):
If you were to catapult yourself back in time
to talk to the young 20-plusyear old Roger and whisper on
his shoulder some of thoselessons we have touched on, some
of them.
Listen to those around you thatyou respect.
Be open for the challenges.
What are the kinds of thingscould be unpacked that would be
lessons learned.
Roger Thompson (32:10):
That was raised in an educational system that
said you can be anything youwant to be.
Of course, we still hear thatIt's a complete lie.
You can certainly be more thanmaybe what you thought or what
people are telling you, but youcan't be anything.
And I was a good student.
I was a straight A student.
So I thought, well, I could bea scientist or I could be a
(32:30):
pastor, I could be an artist, Icould be a violinist, I could be
a pole valter Whatever I set mymind to I could do.
Well, that's false, But Ibrought that into my adulthood
and especially into my ministrylife, thinking I can learn this.
And I wish I had listened topeople who said you needed
administrator, No matter what itcosts.
(32:53):
I wish I had somebody beside mesaying here's how you deal with
conflict, because I didn't growup in a family that had
conflict, at least not outwardly.
It certainly was a verypeaceful home.
Not everything's nice and funin ministry life and there are
conflicts and I wish I had.
I wish somebody had told me howto use a secretary.
(33:14):
This is more my wish list thanmy lesson.
Joe Miller (33:18):
It ties into what we've talked about before, about
leaning into your strengths andbeing realistic about that in a
way, and not buying into whatthe world says to all of us,
that you can be anything.
I mean in my family.
I remember the story that myfather told me about his mother
This is going to be ancienthistory, before there was a moon
(33:40):
.
and when she was applying forwork, a secretarial job my
grandmother was interviewing andthe gentleman said to her can
you run a comptometer?
People go what is a comptometertoday?
It's like an adding machine, ithink.
And she said of course I can,just no problem, i won't have
any problem with that.
She'd never even touched onebecause she was going off of the
(34:04):
.
I can learn anything And thatwas preached in my family You
can do anything you want.
My mother used to say that tome all the time And, yeah, there
was a lot of skin to knees, soto speak, as I grew up.
Roger Thompson (34:17):
Yeah, it's a good thing in terms of
overcoming laziness, justbecause you haven't done it
before.
Okay, you can fix a faucet, youcan do that, you can figure
that out, but it's a badstrategy for joy.
Yes yes, you know, find joy inwhat you do.
Yeah, I think the other thingis that I asked too little of my
staff, and that doesn't mean Ishould have been more of a
(34:39):
tyrant, not at all.
I didn't ask Big to tap thetalents and gifts of some of my
staff along the way.
Some of them wouldn't haveresponded.
I didn't always have hey people, but many would have gladly
taken the challenge if I'd saidhey, this huge thing, I'm not
(34:59):
good at this Study, this prayabout it.
Come back in a month with aproposal because I need your
help.
I would always try to do italong with them, beside them,
And that wasn't necessarily badin terms of brotherhood, but I
think it slowed things down Andthen I always end up being the
one doing it.
Joe Miller (35:16):
Was it hard for you to let go of things?
Roger Thompson (35:18):
then Not really I'm a releaser of people.
I guess I was just reticent tosay, hey, this is a big load,
but you can do it.
Which ironically, that's aposition I've been put in over
and over again and I'veresponded to it.
Yeah, I wish I had asked moreof people in the right way, in
the right brotherhood, collegial, encouraging context, saying
(35:41):
you go, girl, because you gotthe juice.
I'm going to really need you todo this for me, us Or brother,
I figure this out.
I'm stumped and I need you tohelp out here.
Joe Miller (35:52):
Back to your time with Frank Tillipaw, right Yeah,
when he may be wanting to be alittle bit more like him.
Roger Thompson (36:00):
Yeah, he was a real releaser.
He would have said, yeah, andthat's still my DNA.
I want to release people to do.
I've learned a lot about that,but I wish I'd had known that
earlier.
Joe Miller (36:14):
Yeah, and I think even if you're feeling a call to
move into a different area, ifyou also have what you're
referring to now going on, itmight be a little bit hard, it
might create a little drag foryou to make a shift.
So if you're thinking I want toreally lean more into one area,
(36:35):
but you need something else tobe taken over, it's a little bit
hard to let go of it.
Roger Thompson (36:42):
Yeah, yeah, i just read a really good book.
I think I might have shared itwith you.
It's called Necessary Endingsby Henry Cloud, and it's a book
written for the marketplace, buthe uses a biblical metaphor
throughout the book the metaphorof pruning that our lives like
(37:04):
a vineyard produce a lot morelife than we can attend to.
There's going to be a lot morebranches on the vine than can
actually bear fruit, and so themetaphor is they need to be
pruned so that those that dogrow are fruitful.
It's a very good metaphor Andhe just talks about there are
things that necessarily need tocome to an end, and unless we
(37:26):
embrace that reality, we won'tshed the skin we've been wearing
and molt into another newbeginning, and we will just keep
hitting cul-de-sacs or hoardingand cluttering our house, the
house of our life, with all thisold stuff that we need to get
rid of so we can move on.
It's easy to say that, but it'snot always easy to experience
(37:48):
it.
But it's a very good book I'drecommend.
Well, i think I'm going to haveto read that.
Joe Miller (37:52):
That's very convicting to me because I'm
supposed to be retired, but I'mprobably more busy than I was.
Oh, really, yeah, Yeah, that'sgreat.
Any closing thoughts from you?
What I will do is I will put inthe show notes some links to
(38:13):
your book and into the websitewhere the video series is up
online.
Thank you, anything else thatyou would want to?
Roger Thompson (38:19):
leave with us.
I'll be 75 in a few months Andwhat I have planned is more
streamlined.
But I just want to encourageespecially men, and you, joe.
The American system ofretirement is a killer And it
leaves a lot of bench strengthsitting, and so I just want to
(38:40):
encourage men in particular, butwomen also.
As you approach differentsignificant transitions in your
life, always ask what is thenext thing.
And it may be scaled back, itmight be very different, but
there's got to be a next thing.
We are purpose driven humanbeings, and so I hope I have
(39:00):
another decade to pursue what Ibelieve God's calling me to do,
and it will be busy but, i think, also rhythmic.
I won't be tied to a solidschedule all the time.
I'm looking forward to that.
Anyway, i guess I'm saying lifeis good.
I've been very blessed and verythankful.
(39:21):
I'm healthy, i'm as strong as Iwas Still running those long
distances.
No, i want to say with Calebgive me this mountain, give me
another challenge.
I want another challengesuitable for my stage in life,
and I believe that will happen.
Joe Miller (39:36):
I think there was a song country Western song.
Don't let the old man in Goalong with this a little bit.
Thank you so much, Roger, forcoming on the show.
I appreciate it And, as I said,I will leave the contact
information for you in the shownotes and look forward to
hearing more about your nextendeavors.
All right, I'll pass it on.
Roger Thompson (39:57):
All right, man, thank you, take care, god bless.
Thank you.
God bless you.
Bye-bye.
Joe Miller (40:04):
Thanks again for joining me on Titans of
Transition.
Do support the channel if youwould, by liking, subscribing,
sharing with your friends andfamily, doing all those things.
If this particular episode hasblessed you, has encouraged you,
has motivated, you would loveto hear from you.
Also.
(40:25):
Go to my YouTube channel, Leavea comment, Subscribe there If
you want to actually see theinteraction between myself and
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I have other material I put upthere as well.
So thanks again and forvisiting Titans.
Look forward to having you joinus again.
In this episode of Titans of Transition I go back
and talk to a sage resource.
A previous pastor of mine,roger Thompson, joins us today
on Titans.
Brings great wisdom, how toseek God's will for your life,
(00:23):
but it's not a blinding light,as you'll come to learn.
He comes in doing the nextright thing, so let's jump into
it.
First we'll start with whoRoger is and his background
Quite interesting to me.
But if you want to skip ahead,please do lots of wisdom here.
Thanks again for joining me onTitans of Transition.
(00:43):
Pleasure to welcome RogerThompson to Titans of Transition
.
Roger and I have known eachother many years.
Roger was a pastor of a churchI attended for probably 11 years
back in Colorado, stayed intouch throughout the decades And
I had the pleasure of beingable to meet up with Roger and
(01:05):
his wife Joanne, my wife Barband I as they were passing
through our town here in PortCharlotte, florida.
So, roger, welcome to Titans.
Roger Thompson (01:14):
Thank you, joe, good to see you this way and
good to connect with you andshare some thoughts together.
Joe Miller (01:20):
You know I've talked with quite a few people about
transitions in their lives andtheir careers.
These moments when people aresensing that maybe there's a
disquiet in their soul, so tospeak.
They're not sure what the nextmove to make, and it can be
changes thrust upon them, likeall the layoffs we're hearing
about it, or something healthwise it's causing them to make a
(01:42):
change.
Or things could be goingrelatively well, but over time
they sense that they're notgetting all the fulfillment out
of their life that they wouldlike.
I get together with folks andtalk to them about what lessons
they've learned, but for you andour joint faith journey
together, it would beinteresting to connect more with
believers out there who areseeking a closer walk with God
(02:05):
and figure out how we mightnavigate that a little
differently than others.
But before we get into thosespecific details, why don't you
tell us a little bit aboutyourself, starting with, maybe,
high school we don't want to goback to the cradle and how you
got to become a pastor.
Roger Thompson (02:21):
That may take most of our time.
I grew up in a town just westof Denver, colorado, called
Golden, golden, colorado, and Ireally had a Timmy and Lassie
kind of boyhood if you're guestsof that old television show, i
could go anywhere in town.
(02:41):
I had a paper route.
I was really a free kid and itwas just the home for supper
kind of thing in the summertimeAnd I went to high school there
up through my junior year Andthen my dad, who was a pastor,
received a call to anotherchurch in Rialto, california,
which is right next to SanBernardino, which is right next
(03:02):
to Purgatory.
This was 1966, and the FontanaSteel Mill was belching sulfuric
fumes 24-7.
He was driving 400 cubic inchengines.
There was no pollution controland the smog was as thick as a
brown cloud every day.
So I went from a blue skyColorado setting to what I think
(03:26):
was a Purgatorial setting formy last year of high school.
I did okay, but I didn't makeany friends When I had the
opportunity to go to a school, aChristian liberal arts college
in Santa Barbara, california.
I'm not so sure it was a deeplyspiritual decision, as much as
it was an escape.
I was in where I was, and Ialso went there because I wanted
to run, track and cross country.
I walked on to the team thereand went to Westmont College for
(03:50):
four years in Santa Barbara,which I now look back on and say
, oh, that is just the Edenicplace on earth as far as I'm
concerned.
But you can't afford to livethere, that's for sure.
But I ran thousands of miles onthe roads there and competed in
cross country and track andgraduated with a degree in
psychology.
And then I was dating my lastyear, my soon to be wife Joey.
(04:15):
We got married in August of1971.
So that will date me.
I'm in my 75th year.
We got married back before theearth was cooled and they hadn't
invented soft lead and pencils.
Yet The technology that thehigh point of technology at that
time was the IBM Selectrictypewriter, which I envy because
(04:36):
I went from college to Denver,back to Denver and went to
seminary for four years.
How?
Joe Miller (04:42):
did you get there?
Roger Thompson (04:43):
I had grown up in a context where I had an
early faith.
I had an early trust in JesusChrist, who is my savior and
Lord, and I went to many campsand I was listening to my dad
preach every week, and I'd liketo say I'm one of the pastor's
kids who had a great experiencein that regard.
There are some, and along theway there's always this teaching
(05:06):
and the truth that God has aplan for your life, and by that
I don't mean that it's a rigid,deterministic plan, like he
knows what kind of vegetablesyou should eat tonight for
supper.
He knows that, but he doesn'tdetermine that.
But God has a plan for us Andhe also.
We read later in the NewTestament that he's given us
(05:27):
unique capacities and gifts andnone of us have them all.
So there's a combination ofhumility and expectancy in the
Christian life.
So I grew up hearing tales ofmissionaries and people who had
given their life in greatsacrifice to serve God as he
called them into their life.
I believe my dad did that, mymom did that.
(05:47):
So I grew up with this wholebackdrop of saying I want my
life to count.
And for it to count.
It doesn't mean that Iself-determined.
It means I listen for how Godis calling me, and I believe a
lot of early experiences help usdetermine that or at least we
follow those pathways.
So I had been working at Iactually worked at summer camps
(06:08):
for five summers.
Three of those summers were ata church camp in Big Bear,
california, and I saw the lifetransformation of children and
young people.
They would come on Sundayafternoon, they'd leave Saturday
morning And they would justreally have significant
spiritual steps in their life.
And that happened to me too asa child And as a young adult,
(06:30):
and so I really saw that.
And then I spent two summers ata camp called Sea and Summit,
which was a lot like outwardbound And we took delinquent
boys from the camps ofCalifornia minimum security
camps And we would take them on21-day expeditions.
It was a stress camp.
They were put what they thoughtthey were being put in danger
(06:53):
in exposed situations in thewater and also in the high seas.
We would take them on a 14-dayhigh Sierra hike, and that's a
long time to live on dehydratedfood.
And these kids have never beenout of the city.
And so we put them in all kindsof stress situations to build
teamwork, to build trust, toshow them men that they could
trust, but also to teach themdiscipline.
(07:14):
And I realized from thatexperience and I loved it
because I was athletic, i lovedthe outdoors, it was just
everything I wanted to do.
But I realized from thatexperience that they asked me
the right question.
I could probably give them ananswer from the Bible, but they
weren't asking those questions.
And I realized that I didn'thave the knowledge to bring a
(07:36):
worldview to a kid who wasraised in the barrios of
Pasadena and didn't have a dad.
And I felt I need more biblicalknowledge, i need a broader
worldview.
And so that's ultimately whattook me to seminary, thinking
that I would go into campingministry.
That's interesting Which wouldhave been a total disaster.
(07:57):
Why is that?
Because when you're a campcounselor, you're out doing
stuff with the kids.
When you're the camp manager,you're worried about septic
systems and insurance and highreview.
Yeah, all this stuff, i wouldhave been terrible at that.
So what happened is My wife andI were newly married.
(08:18):
We visited a small church thatwas being restarted And there
were about 40 people there thefirst time.
And when we went to this church, we were immediately welcomed
and we just sensed an energythere.
So we began attending there andthe pastor there expected this
church to grow.
He had a philosophy of ministrythat said churches should grow,
(08:39):
and both our dads were pastorsand they were pastors of typical
small town churches of about200, and the new family was a
family that came three years ago.
So we were in this church andit was every Sunday.
People were joining this church.
Joe Miller (08:53):
Was this in Denver?
Roger Thompson (08:54):
This was Bear Valley.
Joe Miller (08:55):
I was gonna say, was this Bear Valley?
Yeah, it was in back in the day, is that Frank?
Roger Thompson (08:59):
Frank Tillipon And that just excited us
basically said hey, how about ifyou take the junior high group?
And I said I don't knowanything about junior hires?
And he said I don't either.
He had the what I call theDarius method of leadership
development.
Maybe your listeners willrecall the story of Daniel in
the lion's den And Daniel's orat the time his king was named
(09:24):
Darius and Daniel was gonna bepunished for worshiping God, and
so he threw him in the lion'sden for three days and he came
back three days later and Danielwas still alive.
So I view this as Frank'smethod of leadership development
.
He threw me into the juniorhigh, came back a few days later
and said you're still alive,you've got the job.
(09:46):
So that was really even thoughI'd grown up in the church.
That was really my firstincidence of needing to show up
every week with something tofeed people who weren't in my
family, and junior hiresespecially.
And I went from that to apart-time youth director and I
worked at different jobs andmaintenance during seminary
(10:07):
during the summer so that Icould pay for my school.
And one thing led to anotherand I came on staff in that
church but I had no desire topreach.
I didn't think I was gonna be apreacher.
I'm basically an introvert.
I've gotten over that, but Ireally was very shy.
Joe Miller (10:21):
You'd be amazed at how many introverts would be
considered to be in the publicforum, and we used to have a
view of introverts as being justshy.
But it's much more complex thanthat, really.
If we come to find out that youneed to get away and recharge
your energy, yes, yeah.
Roger Thompson (10:41):
And all this time by the way, that's part of
the reason that I've run all mylife is I can be alone.
When I do that, i recharge,doing that.
I had a terrible experience inseminary in what is called
preaching class.
It was very sterile, veryartificial And I thought, okay,
i won't do that, i'll just workwith young adults.
I'll work with young marriedpeople, i'll be the utility
infielder on the staff.
(11:02):
And so I came on staff of thatchurch in my final year of
seminary when I was about 25 andjust did all kinds of other
things.
But then Frank came to me abouta year later and said hey,
we're bursting at the seams.
We've got two services already,we need a third one and I think
it's your turn.
So this is the story of my lifeInteresting.
(11:26):
I was on the first time staff atthis church camp.
The camp had never been openbefore.
We were the first staff.
I was on the first staff ofseeing some at this stress camp.
And now here I am in asituation where I'm the first
pastor that a lot of people aregoing to experience at this
church.
So I've often been called intosituations where there isn't
(11:49):
much of a precedent and I don'thave any experience, and so I've
been pulled in the side door ofleadership And I'm not the guy
who would say give me the ball,give me the ball.
You know what I mean.
Let me take the shot.
But God, in his providence, hasalways put people in my life
who have been pulling me towardssomething, saying here's
something we feel you can do,and sometimes it was desperation
(12:11):
.
Other times it was perhapsseeing something in me that I
couldn't see myself, and so Ibecame a preaching pastor at
about the age of 26 and wasthere for another seven or eight
years, and then I went acrosstown another first time.
(12:32):
Situation to a church that hadbeen on a glide path for 20
years had gone from 600 peopledown to under 200 people.
Most of them had white hair andI was 32 years old, and they
called me and said would youconsider being our pastor?
Joe Miller (12:50):
I met you.
Roger Thompson (12:51):
Yeah, and that's where I met you, joe, and I was
essentially sent there with theblessing of Frank and the
church I was serving, along withabout 40 people who came with
me.
Joe Miller (13:02):
There's some things that coming out here that are
bubbling up.
You used the word being called.
You weren't seeking thesethings You had.
The other thing that I think ofis that someone saw something
in you and posed the opportunity.
I'll call it to you.
There were mentors in your life, trusted individuals who
(13:27):
challenged you.
Yes, and I think the biblicalexamples that I think of.
It's interesting how God usespeople who don't themselves seem
equipped.
I think of Moses, for exampleand there's many examples where
God uses people who don't think.
I mean Peter.
Roger Thompson (13:47):
I identify with Timothy in the.
Testament, timothy was theprotégé of Paul, and Timothy was
very differently wired than theguy who turned the world upside
down named the apostle Paul.
And it's obvious, as you readPaul's letters to Timothy, that
Timothy needed Paul'sencouragement.
(14:08):
He needed Paul to paint thepicture of here's who you are
Fan into flame the gift that youhave.
You don't recognize it yourself, but I see it in you.
And so you're right, joe,there've been mentors in my life
that we probably didn't calleach other that, but I was
watching them, i was trustingthem.
And the other thing I thinkthat's a thread of commonality
(14:29):
here is that all this has beendone in community.
My wife and I have always beenin community.
We haven't just been employeesat a church, we've lived among
the people, and so I think whatyou're also hearing is I think
it's probably encouraging to alot of people, because a lot of
religious people, especiallypeople out of my sort of
(14:52):
background, have what we wouldcall a Damascus road experience,
which goes back to the callingof the apostle Paul, when he's
struck down by a light on theroad And he does a total 180
just within minutes.
And often people think that'sthe normative experience of
(15:14):
everybody who either goes intoministry or makes a significant
life change.
But I've never had thatexperience.
That's been God and people andmentors and community pushing my
compass needle over two degreesat a time until I find myself
going 90 degrees to where I washeaded in the first place, and
(15:37):
it's been progressive.
Maybe what that says is I'm aslow learner.
I don't know if oblivious istoo strong a word.
I'm a bit dull to step into myown strengths.
I'm a high duty person, i'm ahigh loyal person, and so for
much of my ministry life I didthe things that nobody else
(15:57):
would do.
But in doing that I also didn'tallow myself to grow in the
areas where I had strengths.
In other words, i was aweakness fixer in myself, and so
I've needed people to hold amirror up to me and say don't
you see this?
This is what you bring when youcome in the room.
This is what you bring, and Igo really.
Joe Miller (16:19):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I see that's a universal thingthat I've seen, regardless of
where the person is in terms offaith I think that is a
universal thing I get wheneverI've coached people is they are
oblivious to their strengths.
And the other thing that Ithink it was taught from the
management and leadership gurusout there was that if someone
(16:45):
was weak in certain areas,that's where you needed to focus
.
You need to bring them up tosome sort of baseline level of
acceptability, and The amount ofenergy it takes for an
individual to make up for theweaknesses is crazy.
They exhaust themselves.
(17:05):
The other thing is it doesn'thave the return on the
investment.
There's no reward in it.
There's no reward in it.
It's just getting to sufficient.
Roger Thompson (17:15):
Yeah, and even if you do it, even if you
complete a project or you don'twant to do it again, No, you
don't want to do it again, andsometimes other people don't
want you to do it again either.
Joe Miller (17:24):
Exactly, Exactly.
So that's interesting Yeah.
Roger Thompson (17:29):
I've been through several significant
transitions, all of them by myown choosing, in the sense that
I was the one who moved intothem.
I haven't been fired, thank God, yet, but I have transitioned
out of several ministries andall those transitions were
difficult in terms of justdetermining is this the time?
Joe Miller (17:47):
Yeah, I don't remember and we don't need to
get into the details, but Iremember when you left the
church that we were together atand you went to the church in
Minnesota, Apple Valley, Berean.
That was extremely difficultfor you And I think it was.
You felt the call, There's noquestion, but that strong sense
(18:09):
of duty going back to what youwere just talking of made it
really hard for you to gothrough that.
Yeah, Painful.
Roger Thompson (18:17):
And I think for me and I've shared this with
other people in transition itwasn't hard for me to know that
I was feeling called or I wantedto go to the new place, but it
was hard for me to know am Idone here, Am I done at this
place?
And traveling to a new placewas easy at that point.
Yeah, And, by the way, Joe, Ididn't leave because of you.
Joe Miller (18:38):
Thank you So relieved.
So there's definitely somelessons there that we've
unpacked.
but now am I correct in?
you said that you haven't beenfired yet, but at this point
you're going through anothertransition as well, because you
were on sabbatical but youretired from that church at this
point In Minnesota There's abit of a story behind that.
Roger Thompson (18:59):
Oh no, okay, back about, basically about
2013,.
I would have been 64, 65 yearsold, and not because of my age,
but because I felt like whenyou've passed her to church for
26 years or whatever it was, atthat point the church begins to
look like you in some ways.
That might be good if you havegood character, but it also
(19:21):
begins to look like youdemographically.
And I realized, even though Idon't feel I didn't feel my age,
feel 20 years younger.
Still some young adult walkingthrough the doors, going, hey,
look at the old guy up in thepulpit.
And I wasn't feelingdownhearted about that, i just
felt like that was a factor.
I felt like, also, the churchneeded to go some places that,
(19:44):
frankly, i wasn't ready tomuscle up and do it.
There were areas where I wasnot really gifted and good at.
And, thirdly, i felt like therewas another adventure, another
assignment that God had waitingfor me.
A meaningful passage ofscripture for me was Joshua,
chapter 14, where Caleb and therest of the children of Israel
(20:08):
finally go into the promisedland.
And Caleb was 40 years old thefirst time he saw it.
But if you remember the storyabout the spies.
The people rejected it.
Caleb and Joshua were the twomen who said, hey, well, we
should go in.
We got a 40 year delay in doingthat, and so he's 85 and he
says to the Lord I'm now 85years old, i'm as strong as I
(20:30):
once was.
Give me this mountain.
I wasn't 85 at the time, but Ifelt like I'm ready for a Caleb
challenge.
And so, anyway, i instigated myown transition.
I wanted to do it when I washealthy.
I wanted to do it when I washealthy spiritually, where the
church was growing and stable.
The staff was solid.
The other board was totallywith me on that.
(20:52):
So I wanted to transition.
I didn't know exactly to what,and I thought initially I would
fade away slowly and the new guywould come in and I would
mentor him.
But that's not what happened.
Make a long story short I endedup staying at the church half
time, primarily in men'sministry, and then I took on
another ministry half timethrough a ministry called man in
(21:13):
the mirror, which is anationwide discipleship ministry
for men.
So I was doing what I call 260%jobs for about six years And I
really loved it.
It was working with men,discipling men And the pastor
(21:34):
who came behind me was excellentin many ways, but he ran into
some trouble And so he left usunder a cloud, and that was
November 2019.
So the elder board asked me ifI could take a leave of absence
from man in the mirror and comeback to the burial in full time,
(21:54):
and it only took an instant ofthought for me to say of course,
and I thought that would be ayear, maybe a year and a half,
but it ended up being threeyears.
Now we just have brought in anew lead pastor about five or
six months ago, and so I'mcoming now to another transition
point.
I'm still full time here, butit's going to change And I'm
(22:15):
looking forward to it.
I'm looking forward to what mywife calls it, not a retirement,
but just to have a differentrhythm and again try to let go
of some things that occupy mytime, that are perhaps not my
joy, my passion or my strength,and zero in on some things that
I feel are what God wants me todo, what I want to do and the
(22:38):
motivated steps that I have.
Joe Miller (22:42):
So a couple of the transitions.
This comes to mind.
You've mentioned moving in intoa different area, not being
sure whether or not you would begifted in that area or not.
It's a discovery process overthe years, isn't it?
Yes, it is, and some of thosethings have been surprises.
You didn't think you'd be apreaching pastor.
Roger Thompson (23:01):
No, and I think six years plus, and I certainly
didn't think that would be oneof the gifts that people would
identify with me as a strength,i thought, okay, i'll do it, but
I'm probably more of acounselor than a preacher.
Joe Miller (23:14):
There's a side buyer there for those folks listening
in.
Many of us alumni from thechurch in Denver which was
Trinity Baptist, where you gotus through the pandemic, roger,
we were tuning in to your churchat Apple Valley to bring in
Yeah, yeah.
And a friend of mine and Italked weekly and we would be.
(23:36):
Did you see the last one?
Yeah?
Roger Thompson (23:40):
that's a good one.
He really challenged us it wasgreat.
Joe Miller (23:42):
So it's interesting, your gifts, they get confirmed
in practice.
Roger Thompson (23:48):
Here's a statement that you could put in
your show notes if you write itdown, but you can't write it as
fast as I'll say it.
Here's something that I hadunder the glass on my desk when
I was a young pastor a younginsecure pastor.
But I still need this as an old, insecure pastor.
And it said this when yousearch for yourself, you'll
(24:13):
probably find nothing, Notbecause there's nothing to find,
but because you don't knowwhere to look.
Your only hope is to giveyourself away in love and let
others tell you what you had togive.
I think that's a directapplication or paraphrase of
(24:35):
what Jesus said that if you seekyour life, you won't find it,
you'll lose it.
But if you lose your life forthe right things, you'll find it
.
And I think it's also boileddown.
That's how we discover our truegifts, other people who are
honest and who know us.
We need to ask them.
(24:55):
Can you tell me what am Ibringing to the stew?
What happens when I walk in theroom?
What difference am I making?
It's not a selfish question.
I've had to learn that that'snot a selfish question, and it's
also not a question you can askto anybody, because many people
will want to flatter.
You want to make you feel goodfor the wrong reasons.
You want to feel good, but youwant to feel good with the right
(25:16):
input, and I've had severalwake-up calls in my life of men
who said this is what you bring,don't you see that?
And I go nope.
I've been trying to be this andall along.
Here's what you're saying Again.
You can call me a slow study, Idon't know, but for me it's
always been this incremental twodegrees of the compass needle
(25:39):
changing, And I also think thatGod can bless certain gifts at
certain stages of your life thatare needed, And so I don't
think we're just static in termsof we have this one trick that
we do all through our life.
That's not what I'm talkingabout.
Joe Miller (25:59):
That's very interesting.
You did also mention you were ateaching pastor but you viewed
yourself as a counselor.
Is that right?
Yes, i may not know the manyhours that pastors spend in deep
conversations, counseling typeconversations where people are
in turmoil or they're seekingGod's will for them or they're
(26:21):
trying to figure it all out andthey come to you.
In the context of thisdiscussion, i suspect you've had
many conversations about whatshould I do next?
And it's interesting, on theshelf right behind you you have
your book Do The Next RightThing.
Funny how that's placed upthere, funny how that's there.
(26:41):
And we're going through thatstudy actually in our men's
group here in Florida.
It's interesting.
I'm wondering was that birthout of some of these
conversations?
Roger Thompson (26:51):
Absolutely, joe, it was.
I mean people and, by the way,I don't view myself as a
therapist, i view myself more asan interventionist.
At this stage in my life, iprayed for the gift of referral,
the gift of referral.
So I really try to refer peoplewho need good counseling to
(27:11):
someone else.
Partly I just don't have thebandwidth for it.
But this book Do The Next RightThing, this phrase I didn't
invent it, i borrowed it fromsomebody, but I'll take credit
for it.
Now it really came out of.
People will come to me and theywill, in a half an hour, will
unwrap this tangled web, thisstory of struggle and abuse and
(27:36):
defeat And who knows what.
I listen with empathy but,because I'm a pastor, a lot of
times they'll turn to me and saywell, what is God's will?
What does God want me to do?
now?
And I've had to say maybe notquite this bluntly, but I don't
have a clue.
There is no one thing you cando to get yourself out of
(28:01):
bankruptcy court.
There's no one thing you can doto untangle this abusive
relationship.
I can share with you the loveof God.
I'm going to pray with you,i'll hug you if you want me to,
i'll encourage you, but what youneed to do is the next right
thing.
So maybe you need to call yourattorney, maybe you need to make
(28:22):
that phone call and set up anappointment with somebody.
Maybe you need to change theoil in your car.
What's the next right thing?
And I really believe if we dothat and it accumulates, the
horizon begins to change forpeople, including myself.
Well, i don't know exactly whatto do about this transition,
(28:43):
but I can start writing down mythoughts, i can start talking to
people.
I can take a trip to PortCharlotte, florida, and ask my
buddy Joe.
In other words, there's a lotof incremental.
I've said I'm a ragingincrementalist because there are
just so many things.
(29:05):
When you keep pursuing somethingstep by step by step, we walk
with God.
We don't pull vault with GodAnd he takes us at a pedestrian
pace And what happens is thehorizon tends to open up, not
only because of what we discover, but because, i believe, what
(29:25):
God shows us, and it may not bea blinding light, it's just
somebody comes along with newinformation And there you go.
Or help, somebody makes child'splay out of what we thought was
a hopeless snarl of complexity.
So that's what the book isreally about.
How do you walk when you don'thave the final answer?
(29:47):
You just know that it's foggyand you need to do something.
Joe Miller (29:52):
And pulling out.
You call them handholds And Ilove the metaphor, the climbing
metaphor.
It's so powerful that you usein pulling out those lessons
from 2nd Peter 1.
Very powerful.
And this incremental thingconnects with me too, because on
a number of conversations thatI've had with people, there
(30:15):
seems to be this assumption thatwe should know the target, you
know the spot, the bullseye.
What is that one thing that Godwants me to do or that I should
be doing?
And I'll be totally messed upif I don't hit that bullseye.
And life is more like climbinga mountain where you come over
these summits and you thinkyou're going to reach that.
(30:37):
You're going to hit thatbullseye on the next summit, But
you see another it's just ashoulder.
And after you summit three orfour of those shoulders, you
begin to wonder if it's abouthitting the peak or if it's
about the journey.
Yeah, And how you navigate thatjourney.
Roger Thompson (30:53):
Yeah.
Well, i think it's especiallyprominent with Christians that
they feel like there ought to bea simple answer, the whole
thing of what is God trying toteach me?
Well, he is teaching you, butit may not be one lesson.
It may be make the phone call,you know.
(31:16):
Change the way you talk to yourwife, change the tone of the
dinner table conversation, tryto reconnect with your daughter
through a text.
Today, there's a thousandthings that God may be showing
you that you already know how todo.
It's not a blinding light or anew galaxy that is going to drop
on you.
So I don't want to oversimplifyit, or I don't want to be rude
(31:39):
of supernatural power ormiracles, but I think that's the
way most of us need to navigate, so at least that's the way I
do it.
Joe Miller (31:48):
If you were to catapult yourself back in time
to talk to the young 20-plusyear old Roger and whisper on
his shoulder some of thoselessons we have touched on, some
of them.
Listen to those around you thatyou respect.
Be open for the challenges.
What are the kinds of thingscould be unpacked that would be
lessons learned.
Roger Thompson (32:10):
That was raised in an educational system that
said you can be anything youwant to be.
Of course, we still hear thatIt's a complete lie.
You can certainly be more thanmaybe what you thought or what
people are telling you, but youcan't be anything.
And I was a good student.
I was a straight A student.
So I thought, well, I could bea scientist or I could be a
(32:30):
pastor, I could be an artist, Icould be a violinist, I could be
a pole valter Whatever I set mymind to I could do.
Well, that's false, But Ibrought that into my adulthood
and especially into my ministrylife, thinking I can learn this.
And I wish I had listened topeople who said you needed
administrator, No matter what itcosts.
(32:53):
I wish I had somebody beside mesaying here's how you deal with
conflict, because I didn't growup in a family that had
conflict, at least not outwardly.
It certainly was a verypeaceful home.
Not everything's nice and funin ministry life and there are
conflicts and I wish I had.
I wish somebody had told me howto use a secretary.
(33:14):
This is more my wish list thanmy lesson.
Joe Miller (33:18):
It ties into what we've talked about before, about
leaning into your strengths andbeing realistic about that in a
way, and not buying into whatthe world says to all of us,
that you can be anything.
I mean in my family.
I remember the story that myfather told me about his mother
This is going to be ancienthistory, before there was a moon
(33:40):
.
and when she was applying forwork, a secretarial job my
grandmother was interviewing andthe gentleman said to her can
you run a comptometer?
People go what is a comptometertoday?
It's like an adding machine, ithink.
And she said of course I can,just no problem, i won't have
any problem with that.
She'd never even touched onebecause she was going off of the
(34:04):
.
I can learn anything And thatwas preached in my family You
can do anything you want.
My mother used to say that tome all the time And, yeah, there
was a lot of skin to knees, soto speak, as I grew up.
Roger Thompson (34:17):
Yeah, it's a good thing in terms of
overcoming laziness, justbecause you haven't done it
before.
Okay, you can fix a faucet, youcan do that, you can figure
that out, but it's a badstrategy for joy.
Yes yes, you know, find joy inwhat you do.
Yeah, I think the other thingis that I asked too little of my
staff, and that doesn't mean Ishould have been more of a
(34:39):
tyrant, not at all.
I didn't ask Big to tap thetalents and gifts of some of my
staff along the way.
Some of them wouldn't haveresponded.
I didn't always have hey people, but many would have gladly
taken the challenge if I'd saidhey, this huge thing, I'm not
(34:59):
good at this Study, this prayabout it.
Come back in a month with aproposal because I need your
help.
I would always try to do italong with them, beside them,
And that wasn't necessarily badin terms of brotherhood, but I
think it slowed things down Andthen I always end up being the
one doing it.
Joe Miller (35:16):
Was it hard for you to let go of things?
Roger Thompson (35:18):
then Not really I'm a releaser of people.
I guess I was just reticent tosay, hey, this is a big load,
but you can do it.
Which ironically, that's aposition I've been put in over
and over again and I'veresponded to it.
Yeah, I wish I had asked moreof people in the right way, in
the right brotherhood, collegial, encouraging context, saying
(35:41):
you go, girl, because you gotthe juice.
I'm going to really need you todo this for me, us Or brother,
I figure this out.
I'm stumped and I need you tohelp out here.
Joe Miller (35:52):
Back to your time with Frank Tillipaw, right Yeah,
when he may be wanting to be alittle bit more like him.
Roger Thompson (36:00):
Yeah, he was a real releaser.
He would have said, yeah, andthat's still my DNA.
I want to release people to do.
I've learned a lot about that,but I wish I'd had known that
earlier.
Joe Miller (36:14):
Yeah, and I think even if you're feeling a call to
move into a different area, ifyou also have what you're
referring to now going on, itmight be a little bit hard, it
might create a little drag foryou to make a shift.
So if you're thinking I want toreally lean more into one area,
(36:35):
but you need something else tobe taken over, it's a little bit
hard to let go of it.
Roger Thompson (36:42):
Yeah, yeah, i just read a really good book.
I think I might have shared itwith you.
It's called Necessary Endingsby Henry Cloud, and it's a book
written for the marketplace, buthe uses a biblical metaphor
throughout the book the metaphorof pruning that our lives like
(37:04):
a vineyard produce a lot morelife than we can attend to.
There's going to be a lot morebranches on the vine than can
actually bear fruit, and so themetaphor is they need to be
pruned so that those that dogrow are fruitful.
It's a very good metaphor Andhe just talks about there are
things that necessarily need tocome to an end, and unless we
(37:26):
embrace that reality, we won'tshed the skin we've been wearing
and molt into another newbeginning, and we will just keep
hitting cul-de-sacs or hoardingand cluttering our house, the
house of our life, with all thisold stuff that we need to get
rid of so we can move on.
It's easy to say that, but it'snot always easy to experience
(37:48):
it.
But it's a very good book I'drecommend.
Well, i think I'm going to haveto read that.
Joe Miller (37:52):
That's very convicting to me because I'm
supposed to be retired, but I'mprobably more busy than I was.
Oh, really, yeah, Yeah, that'sgreat.
Any closing thoughts from you?
What I will do is I will put inthe show notes some links to
(38:13):
your book and into the websitewhere the video series is up
online.
Thank you, anything else thatyou would want to?
Roger Thompson (38:19):
leave with us.
I'll be 75 in a few months Andwhat I have planned is more
streamlined.
But I just want to encourageespecially men, and you, joe.
The American system ofretirement is a killer And it
leaves a lot of bench strengthsitting, and so I just want to
(38:40):
encourage men in particular, butwomen also.
As you approach differentsignificant transitions in your
life, always ask what is thenext thing.
And it may be scaled back, itmight be very different, but
there's got to be a next thing.
We are purpose driven humanbeings, and so I hope I have
(39:00):
another decade to pursue what Ibelieve God's calling me to do,
and it will be busy but, i think, also rhythmic.
I won't be tied to a solidschedule all the time.
I'm looking forward to that.
Anyway, i guess I'm saying lifeis good.
I've been very blessed and verythankful.
(39:21):
I'm healthy, i'm as strong as Iwas Still running those long
distances.
No, i want to say with Calebgive me this mountain, give me
another challenge.
I want another challengesuitable for my stage in life,
and I believe that will happen.
Joe Miller (39:36):
I think there was a song country Western song.
Don't let the old man in Goalong with this a little bit.
Thank you so much, Roger, forcoming on the show.
I appreciate it And, as I said,I will leave the contact
information for you in the shownotes and look forward to
hearing more about your nextendeavors.
All right, I'll pass it on.
Roger Thompson (39:57):
All right, man, thank you, take care, god bless.
Thank you.
God bless you.
Bye-bye.
Joe Miller (40:04):
Thanks again for joining me on Titans of
Transition.
Do support the channel if youwould, by liking, subscribing,
sharing with your friends andfamily, doing all those things.
If this particular episode hasblessed you, has encouraged you,
has motivated, you would loveto hear from you.
Also.
(40:25):
Go to my YouTube channel, Leavea comment, Subscribe there If
you want to actually see theinteraction between myself and
my guests.
I have other material I put upthere as well.
So thanks again and forvisiting Titans.
Look forward to having you joinus again.
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