Ever dreamt of making a dramatic career shift? Our guest for today, Justin Chan, did exactly that! From a successful chemical engineer to a full-time worship guitarist and music teacher, Justin's journey is both inspiring and thought-provoking. Tune in as we delve into his unique career transition and how he fulfilled his childhood dream of becoming a rockstar. His experiences at the Methodist School of Music and his commitment to various church training programs in Singapore reflect his dedication to his craft and music ministry.
What does a typical day for a full-time worship musician look like? Justin takes us through his multi-faceted roles, sharing how he balances band training, concert music arrangement, and reviewing footage of churches' worship services. He also shares his adaptability in navigating the pandemic, leveraging digital platforms like YouTube and Zoom to continue his ministry work and keep the music alive. From sharing video seminars to creating worship music videos, Justin's commitment to the ministry remains unwavering amidst changing times.
Finally, we unravel the realities of full-time music ministry with Justin. It's not just about creating music; it involves budget management, report writing, and decision-making for equipment purchases. Justin offers his insights on making the right career moves, understanding the difference between gifts and skills, and making choices that honor our responsibilities. This enlightening conversation with Justin Chan is not just for those considering a career in music ministry, but for anyone seeking inspiration from a unique career journey. Join us, and let's explore the power of passion and purpose together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joe Miller (00:00):
When did you formally let go of your career
as a chemical engineer Processengineer.
Justin Chan (00:06):
That was when I was challenged to do full-time
ministry in my church and ofcourse I dove into the deep end
with that move because I had noidea why I was like working in
church the question that comesup often, because when you take
your foot out of the oldcomfortable place that you were,
there's a letting go, releasing.
Joe Miller (00:25):
that occurs as you then move forward into your new
direction.
And how did you deal with that?
I mean, was there sometrepidation?
Was there some concern or fear?
I hear you, lord, but is this acrazy move?
Justin Chan (00:38):
I can assure you it was 100% trepidation and it's
worse.
Joe Miller (00:42):
Really happy to have Justin Chan with me here on
Titans of Transition.
Hey, justin, justin is aworship guitarist.
I'm kind of on a roll here withdoing interviews for musicians
and talking about theirtransition stories and their
lessons learned.
I came across Justin because Iplay a guitar in my church as
(01:03):
well and follow a number ofdifferent people on YouTube, and
I just really appreciated hiswork and his spirit.
So he'll be joining us fromSingapore.
Justin, why don't you tell usjust a little bit about what you
currently do?
Tell us a little bit aboutSingapore and life in Singapore.
Justin Chan (01:21):
Sure, joe.
Hi Joe and hi everyone thispodcast.
I'm Justin.
I'm from Singapore.
Singapore is a tiny island thatis at the very bottom of
Malaysia.
So if you know where Malaysiais, that V shape kind of like a
peninsula, it's right at thebottom.
You can't even see it on aregular scale map.
You got to scale down and see,oh there's a tiny island right
(01:41):
there and Singapore is a citystate, it's very much a
metropolis.
There's no such thing ascountryside living here.
So all of us live in dense,high density, high rise
apartments and because of thatwe're all maybe a bit high
strung, a bit more stressed out.
And, as you can possibly tell, Idon't speak Chinese, even
(02:03):
though I look like I'm Chinese.
My Chinese is terrible andthat's probably characteristic
of some of us here.
There's a minority of us herewho quite quote, unquote,
westernized in our music choices, in our life choices.
So my favorite books are youknow I can name Western, western
authors and Western music as myfavorite media bit very little
(02:24):
Chinese stuff, negligible.
And I am currently at theMethodist School of Music.
It is a that's my day job.
So YouTube is not my full timething, even though I wish it
were.
My YouTube channel is ElectricGuitarist doing worship ministry
and that is an outflow from myday job in the Methodist School
of Music and that is I curate,design, implement training
(02:47):
programs for church musicianteams.
So if anyone needs to do banddynamics, I'm the guy they call.
If anyone wants to plan acourse on how to integrate the
electric guitar into a worshipteam, I'm the guy that they will
call and the worship?
The Methodist School of Musicis comprised of basically two
arms.
That's the general music arm,which they teach piano, violin,
(03:09):
abrsm, which is like the, youknow, the standard qualification
body for music.
Then you've got the worshipmusic side, which is me and my,
my department and my, mycolleagues, and we all are
involved in some way or form oftraining the church in Singapore
and even though it's there'sMethodist in the name we are.
We cater to anyone, any churchin Singapore, who wants to level
(03:30):
up their worship ministry.
Joe Miller (03:32):
Oh, that's great.
I'm sure we have people joiningus who may not be that familiar
with church music and churchministry.
In my last interview with JohnCorte we touched on it a little
bit and I was surprised you know, happily, but surprised that he
had spent some time playing inchurch as well.
So we may want to take sometime and, and you know, later on
(03:53):
in this podcast and talk aboutthe differences and the
similarities in playing in agroup in the church versus
playing in sort of a normalsecular kind of a band or
something like that and you'veplayed in bands too, it's not
like you haven't done that, soas well.
So, but the main focus of thispodcast is really talking about
life and career transitions.
(04:15):
So why don't we start off, ifit's okay, and kind of get a
sense on how you landed in thiscurrent role at this music
school and you know doing whatyou're doing?
Justin Chan (04:26):
It's a long and windy road and, thanks to Joe,
sounds like a.
Joe Miller (04:30):
Paul McCartney song Long and windy road.
Justin Chan (04:34):
Sucking.
You said that.
Second, I said that I thoughtthat song too.
So, yes, it is a long and windyroad, but the Cliff Notes
version and possibly andhopefully the five minute
version of the story is that Iarrived here as a result of a
few key events in my life thatthat pushed me towards number
(04:57):
one full time ministry andnumber two music in ministry.
Specifically, all along as Iwas growing up, my dream was to
become the next rock star, rockmusician, and I always dreamt
and even now it's still a dreamof playing on stage in a band
and making music and so just tointerrupt you just a second,
(05:18):
what like Joe Satriani andothers like that?
Oh man, I was convinced I wasgoing to be the next John
Prichucci and an Asian theater.
Yeah, I was.
Yeah, I was in a.
I was actually in a dreamtheater cover band at one point
in time and I was, yeah, and I,and that was pre-YouTube and
pre-recording days.
So like there's like almostzero evidence of me having done
(05:38):
that could be a good thing.
I have to take all the songsand slow it down by, like you
know, to 15%.
Yeah, so I had childhood dreamsof being a rock star and
musician and as I was growing upand being in an Asian household
, the general advice that myparents were comfortable with
and the trajectory that theywere comfortable with was if I
could get a normal day job andwork on music as a side.
(06:01):
And that was the life plan toget a degree, to get an
undergraduate and something andthen work at music on the side.
But something happened gettingthe full-time day job, and that
was in Singapore.
Before we go to higher education, all Singaporean males have to
serve two years in nationalservice, and between junior
(06:24):
college and university, that is,or at least between the two
phases of education, there'slike a six-month gap between
when you end school and when youstart national service.
And for me, I was due to enternational service but I still had
a six-month kind of like lagtime, of like just downtime.
(06:44):
I was totally free During thattime.
My church friends they werepart of an organization called
Singapore Youth for Christ, andSingapore Youth for Christ is a
paratroop organization.
They are not affiliated withany church but they are
comprised of staff andvolunteers whose main goal is to
do outreach to youth and youthprograms.
(07:06):
And then and Youth for Christ,there are basically two ways
that they run programs.
If there's the school-basedministries, which they do direct
outreach in the schools, andthen they've got interest-based
outreach, which is they've gotdifferent groups that cater to
different like ministry points.
So, for example, the sportsministry, so they get sporty
(07:27):
people to come in.
I was invited to attend aprogram at the Performing Arts
Ministry, performing artsministry, so it's a.
They call it ProjectServe.
It's a three to six monthprogram where you take on it's
like an internship you go in andyou are treated and you perform
as the same duties as afull-time staff would at the at
(07:50):
Sigour Yufa Christ, and so forthree to six months I ended up
staying there for the whole sixmonths duration.
I did the stint there inProjectServe and basically we
the main goal of that program,the main highlight, I should say
, is that you can they plan andorganize an evangelistic concert
using radio songs and theycraft a gospel message based on
(08:12):
the radio songs.
And so that was my firstexposure to seeing that music
can be used for purposes otherthan self-expression and
creative expression.
And I was number one blown awayby that connection between
music.
And I think at the point intime seeds were being sown in my
heart to start desiring more ofthis kind of meaningful
(08:34):
connections and this kind ofmeaningful work, because I
started to see that music wasmore than just self-expression,
more than just cutting your ownalbums and making it big.
Joe Miller (08:44):
So, justin, so going into this, this gap period
leading up to your internshipwith Yufa Christ, did you have
some career direction in mind atthat time?
Justin Chan (08:55):
Yes, yes, because actually by that time I already
had a degree.
I did my path was slightlyinverted that most people go to
junior college than army, and sobefore going to army, and
actually before going to YufaChrist, I already had a degree
in chemical engineering andprocess technology.
So actually, when you mentionedpharmaceuticals and chemical
(09:16):
chemists, I can totally relate,because I was in pharmaceutical
manufacturing for two years, youknow, as part of the day job,
as it was.
Joe Miller (09:23):
So there, you go Okay, let's get back on track.
You had done this internshipand you felt like it really
resonated with you at that pointin time.
Is that that?
I read that?
Justin Chan (09:33):
Yes yes, In a nutshell, that happened.
That was the.
That was the aha moment where Icould see that music could be
meaningfully used and it gave mea sense of deeper purpose, that
I was engaging in in not justcreative expression, but
creative expression with apurpose, if you know what I mean
.
That was a Yufa Christ.
And that was part one.
(09:54):
Actually, part two of the storyis doing my national service, I
actually got injured.
Both my wrists have geneticallyweak ligaments, so these
ligaments, central ligamentinside these wrists they will
tear and they were torn duringmy time in national service.
It was so injured, they were sobadly injured that my technique
(10:16):
was basically erased.
All those years that I spent,you know, playing up dream
theater chops, it was gone.
I couldn't play guitar.
It was one percent of theability that I had.
That was the, that process ofbeing broken down and it forced
me to examine my outlook in lifeand basically I felt that the
question was asked to me who amI without music?
(10:38):
Or who am I without a guitar?
If, if God would take away theguitar from me, how would I
survive, you know, would Isurvive?
And and the honest answer atthat point in time, when the
first happened was that I feltlost and I felt that it was all
doing gloom.
For quite a while actually andby God's grace he healed my
wrists.
I can't play as fast as thatanymore, but doing that process
(10:58):
of being broken down and andrelearning my technique, that
was the opportunity for me tolook at what else God has given
me and God gave has given me todo and to explore those options
and doing that phase.
And actually these these eventsoccurred almost back to back,
because I did my internship atyouth for Christ, then I went
into army and then got injured,so that was a whole period of
(11:21):
okay, if everything's going tobe stripped down, what else can
I do?
I was challenged to go tochurch and.
I obeyed whatever prompting wasgiven to me, and that was
exploring.
That was the period exploringOkay, if I'm not going to be a
musician, maybe I could be apastor.
And and as long story short, itbecame quite clear that I was
better suited to work in otherareas of ministry other than
(11:45):
being a pastor in the MethodistChurch in Singapore, and because
of that I was freed up to enterseminary.
So I did three years ofseminary.
I got a theological degree, amaster's of divinity, and during
that time I interned at theMethodist School of Music,
because they I have a feweducation and requirement to
fulfill as part of my degree,and that was the time that my
(12:07):
current boss now gave me theopportunity to teach causes
there.
She gave me free reign todesign and teach.
I believe it was like three tofour Saturdays of electric
guitar workshop and, and ofcourse that was something that
that we've compiled and packagedit now at the Methodist School
(12:27):
of Music, but back then it wasthe first time they ever did
that in that current formatanyway, and I felt, wow, this is
something I felt at home.
I thought this is likesomething that really marries my
interest and passion in music,my alignment with wanting to do
this for purpose and for for agreater purpose, and I don't
(12:48):
have to play as fast as JobJiu-Jitsu to serve in this
capacity.
And so, in a nutshell, this iswhere I felt like the job fit
right like a glove.
My boss really wanted me there.
There were no obstructions togetting in, no one was telling
me that this was a bad idea, andeveryone who saw that move said
that, yeah, this is totallywhat Justin would do, and and
(13:11):
and so you had some some uncleexternal validation.
Yes, yes, yes.
So this was a good place foryou, yeah.
Well, my well, my classmateswere all.
They were graduating, they weregoing back to the churches to
work as full-time staff or to goon to become ordained pastors.
They look at me and and we'rewith mine path into Methodist
school music and they said, yeah, that's, that's totally what
(13:32):
you should be doing, like youknow, don't let let us be the
pastors.
We need more people like you togo into to this, because
there's only one of you that'slike so many of us.
Joe Miller (13:43):
Right, Right.
So when did you formally let goof your career as a chemical
engineer?
Process engineer.
Justin Chan (13:51):
That was when I was challenged to do full-time
ministry in my church.
I felt, I felt that promptingto serve in my church, even
though I I wasn't.
I didn't know exactly what thatwould entail and of course I I
dove into the deep end with thatmove because I had no idea why
I was like working in church andand that really opened my eyes
and and and good and bad ways, Isuppose.
Joe Miller (14:10):
Yeah, I it's, it's.
It's a question that comes upoften because people they sort
of keep one foot in both worlds,which isn't a bad thing, as you
sort of test the waters, butwhen you take your foot out of
the old comfortable place thatyou were, when maybe you were
making good salary, you knowwhat it takes to be successful
(14:31):
and you there's a letting go.
It was a releasing.
That occurs as you then moveforward into your new direction,
so sometimes that can be a bigchallenge.
How did you deal with that?
I mean, was there sometrepidation?
Was there some concern or fear?
I hear you, lord, but is this acrazy move?
Justin Chan (14:49):
I can assure you it was 100% trepidation and it's
worse as an Asian kid in anAsian household but prompted me
to take up to obey.
The call to take up challengewas number one I felt the burden
do a lot more in church andwith a lot more of my time than
I could afford as part-time, asan engineer.
And number two there werepeople who provided support and
(15:11):
gave me the assurance that theywould support me going to church
and the key person was mythen-girlfriend now my wife.
Back then, even before westarted the courtship season,
the day that I told her that Iwanted to get serious with her,
I told her that I was eventuallygoing to full-time ministry.
(15:32):
And are you okay with that?
And it was okay.
If you're not okay with it, youhave the opportunity to walk
away.
She didn't walk away and shesaid that she would support me
and she even incorporated thatshe would support me in
full-time ministry even in ourwedding vows.
And to this day, that is stillthe number one call memory for
(15:54):
me and it still gives me thatdrive each and every day that
I'm doing this on this crazyjourney of full-time ministry.
Joe Miller (16:01):
Together and I will drop in the show notes a link to
your video that prompted meactually to reach out to you to
request an interview with you,justin, where you honored your
wife and thanked her for hersupport.
That was very touching.
That kind of partnership iswonderful and I can speak for
(16:23):
myself kind of in the retirementyears and how many years I put
my wife through all kinds ofcrazy situations, changing jobs
and moving across our country ofthe US and so having that
partnership is really valuable,that consideration as well.
So there was kind of a ahamoment that you exposed it.
(16:45):
There was an epiphany where yousaid, wow, this is really good,
I really like this, this is it,and then moving forward from
that pretty much full steamahead, I guess right.
Justin Chan (16:57):
Yes, that's right.
Joe Miller (16:58):
So what can we pivot now and talk about what's life
like for you?
So what's your typical day?
What does it look like?
Obviously, if you're working inthe church, there is a schedule
every week.
I know I'm on the worship teamof my church, so you know I work
on the music leading up torehearsal times and, of course,
(17:21):
there's the actual worshipservice or services on Sunday
morning.
So, as someone who's part ofthat or leading that, you have
additional requirements to getahead of things, and I know from
my background but others maynot know what your day is like.
And then, if you can bring inthis part, this YouTube part,
(17:43):
because you're putting out a lotof material to serve other
worship musicians and worshipguitarists, electric guitarists
as well so tell us a little bitabout your job and what that's
like and then bring in the wholeYouTube thing and what you
bring.
Justin Chan (18:00):
Okay, work in metastical music is seasonal.
It depends on quite a fewthings.
Number one the seasons, withthe church, with calendar.
Normally we have concerts thatwe plan and execute at various
churches.
So we have an advent concert,we have a Christmas concert, we
have a Lent concert and we havelike a Good Friday, easter sort
(18:22):
of like concerts.
So those and those concerts canappear in various forms.
The one that is most prominentis we have a volunteer choir to
perform with those concerts, andI say concert but it's really
like a theme to service.
And even though I said that myjob discussion is to design,
curate and implement bandtraining, I'm very much involved
in the other side.
(18:43):
My music performance side iscan be in these concerts because
I play guitar for theseconcerts.
I'll arrange some music forthese concerts.
So those are for the key eventsand but the day to day job,
when inquiry from church comesin let's say a church wants to
do band training I would have toplan out when is the best time
for me to go in and sit in withtheir rehearsals.
(19:06):
Number one sit in with theirband meetings, if they do have
band meetings outside ofrehearsals and that can take up
several Saturdays at a go, andso there was a period like for
some reason, a lot of churchesare very free and like toward
the end of year, like October,so there was one October,
november.
Every single Saturday I was in,I was in either one or two
(19:27):
churches working hand in handwith them.
So I like to work withspecialty training so I don't I
try to do like generic trainingso I just cater specifically to
that church and so that's a lotof hand holding as a lot of
direct involvement with thechurch.
So I would sit in with theirrehearsal, I would then teach
and implement some band trainingtechniques with that particular
(19:50):
worship team or the worshipministry, depending on how
whether they want a wholeministry wide thing or they just
want band tuition for one bandas a word and then I would watch
their worship service.
Right now, because of thepandemic, every church has the
ability to record their servicesand so I would review their
footage and I'll watch or takenotes and I'll have a post
(20:12):
Sunday meeting with the band totell them what they did right or
they did wrong, what can theyimprove, and that whole process
from pre band meeting to postSunday meeting can be four or
five Saturdays for one church,and so there are times I've had
two or three churches areworking concurrently and that,
yeah, that takes up a lot ofweekends.
(20:33):
Aside from that, we also havesome causes that we run
independent of like this kind oftraining.
So we have like a cause wewould run every last Saturday of
the month for six months and wecall that the certificate of
Christian, certificate inChristian worship, and I would
take the, the musician track oftraining the bands there.
(20:55):
So every last Saturday of themonth I've got one class that I
would teach and, of course, ifany church wants to do a seminar
, they want to do a weekend oftraining, I would avail myself
to teach at that church.
Joe Miller (21:07):
So it's very much like a consultancy.
Yes, you can say that so yeah,and it's not just the face to
face time but like any otherconsultancy, you have to do your
research to understand wherethey are.
Oh, yeah, yeah, what their asis is what their to be is pretty
much, pretty much pretty muchIndigo right Indeed, and how
(21:29):
YouTube fits into all of this isduring the pandemic.
Justin Chan (21:33):
a lot of the audio and video production skills were
learned right then, becausewhen we suddenly couldn't meet
up face to face, I had to pivotand work entirely to produce
digital content like videoseminars, zoom, conferences, and
so a lot of these skills ofwhat does good video look like,
how does good audio sound like,how do you mix it live.
(21:56):
The early days of the pandemic,when we had to do like total
lockdown in Singapore, I wasmixing.
I was producing worship musicvideos for church, at least two
to three a week.
So I had to, I had to, I had tocollate everyone's home
recordings.
I had to mix the audio and geta good mix out of that.
(22:16):
So mixing, mastering, the wholeengineering process and then
after that produce the videowhere they would film themselves
at home and stitching ittogether.
And then you know right then.
And then I learned videoediting.
Joe Miller (22:31):
So some of these were all stitched together.
They weren't like just theworship team in the room with
masks or something recorded.
You had to piece these together.
Justin Chan (22:42):
Yeah, we couldn't even go into church so we oh my
gosh, that's what a challenge.
Yeah.
So we we got a chance to seewhat everyone's houses look like
, what everyone's bedroom looklike, for a period and, yeah,
that season really boosted myvideo and audio production
skills and I thought, well, thismight be a time to really take
(23:02):
my channel seriously and with.
I've always wanted to be aneducational channel, I wanted to
teach, and one of the outletswhere I can do anything I want
and for anything I wanted totalk about, deep dive into
subjects that would beconsidered too nerdy to do live.
I can do it on YouTube and Iguess I'm thankful that there is
(23:24):
an audience that people arewatching and can geek out with
me with my gear and my techstuff.
And I have tried to dotechnique stuff as well, like
guitar technique stuff, but Ijust haven't had the time to to
really write out tabs and tolike, like, like, go through the
exercise I really want to dothat I don't have.
Joe Miller (23:41):
Yeah, well, in your situation, since you are working
at the school I mean I'mproducing course and curriculum
and delivering and doingconsulting it's a different mix
than some some guitarists onYouTube, where it's really more
about monetization and that sortof their full time job so they
can justify writing tabs andother things you might want to,
(24:03):
but it's a lot of work.
Justin Chan (24:04):
It is, it is.
Joe Miller (24:05):
Yeah, it's interesting, and when I asked
the question at the verybeginning of this segment, I
completely misspoke and said youknow going into the church, but
of course you're at the schooland so the work you're doing at
your own church is voluntary, Iimagine.
Yes, yes, my worship leading,so you have that too.
Justin Chan (24:24):
Yes, I've got that too.
And the fun thing about YouTube, I guess, is that because I'm
deep diving to all this gear,I'm able to take some of this
deep diving and implement it inchurch.
So I didn't get, you know, Iwouldn't have a chance to use
Ableton live on stage if not forthe the, you know, if not for
me having to sit down and figureout okay, how am I going to use
my Helix as an Ableton livecontroller?
(24:47):
And then research, figure out,then come out with a script and
then film it.
You know, film it, teach it andthen get it recorded.
It's teaching myself first, Ithink, with YouTube.
So YouTube it's a.
I guess it's the cathartic inthat I get to teach what I want
to teach, but it's also I get totrain myself in the things that
I talk about.
Joe Miller (25:08):
Yes, absolutely, because you have mine, you want
to bring this out, and so, inorder to bring it out, you have
to do your preparation for thoseepisodes and or you know it can
be I'm going to learn this andI'm going to bring my YouTube
audience along along my journeywhat I discover and what works
in that context.
So, in terms of the transitionsthen and I think we got a little
(25:30):
bit about your YouTube channeland I will put in the notes
obviously links to that, becauseI think, it's a great resource
for those who are listening, whoare on worship teams, who are
leading worship there's a lot ofgreat insights and for just
general musicians and guitaristswho are interested in certain
types of gear.
I know you spend a lot of timewith Helix platform, which is
(25:55):
very popular, so people probablyfind you just doing searches on
those devices and it's greatcontent.
But in terms of the transitionsyou've gone through, what kind
of lessons have come out?
If you were going to this is myadvice to your younger self
question If you were to turn theclock back, Justin, based upon
the paths that you've gone onand the transitions you've made,
(26:17):
what advice would you have toothers?
Justin Chan (26:19):
I think the number one advice I would give to at
least people consideringfull-time ministry and full-time
music ministry is that beprepared that music is only one
part of the equation.
And I say that because it's abit of a root shock to you take
on a job or you take on aposition and suddenly realize
(26:40):
that you've got to not just, Iguess, perform your role as a
musician or consultant, but alsoyou have to balance budgets,
need to write reports and youneed to defend your decisions
regarding why you boughtequipment A versus equipment B.
All this, as you would call it,red tape.
Sooner we embrace that notionthat ministry is more than just
(27:03):
music.
Ministry is also administration.
It's also having to be faithfulin these things.
It depends on the situationyou're in and depends on the
context you're in.
The sooner you realize thatthere is a level of
administration to embrace, notjust plow through on or not just
.
Like you know, I have to justsurvive this.
If you embrace it and if youtry to internalize and get it
(27:24):
past part of your internalsystem, that will go down a lot
faster and a lot easier.
You won't have those days whereyou bang your head on the wall
saying, why do I have?
Why do?
I balance budgets, or like whydon't you provide three
quotations?
Or like you know that and dothat kind of head begging when
I'm called to be a musician orI'm called to be someone to to
(27:45):
bless the congregation with youare blessing people, brace, that
you're part of the overall teamof this organization and not
just in this one area.
Joe Miller (27:56):
Other things that come to mind.
You know we talked a little bitabout knowing that you were
making the right move.
And how did you?
How did you know?
Justin Chan (28:04):
I think there are two factors to also so some
advice also is to open your eyesto both external and internal
confirmations.
The internal confirmation, ofcourse, is after your prayer,
after your devotion to the Lord,your quiet time.
Where do you sense him leadingyou towards?
Sometimes his voice isn't easyto discern with all the
(28:25):
background climber going around.
The external validation is alsoquite important.
If you feel that you're going ina certain direction and
everyone says that that's a badidea, it probably is a bad idea
as much as we try to claim theverse.
You know I can do all things toChrist who strengthens me.
That's not what the verse istrying to tell you.
So external confirmation is animportant thing.
(28:46):
I would have probably listenedto my closer friends when they
told me that maybe being apastor wasn't a good fit for you
and maybe my process would havebeen faster if I had heeded
that advice, because it wasn'tjust one person, it was a couple
of people already telling thatto me, not just my pastor in
charge, but, you know, my pastoroverseeing me and a few of my
(29:07):
colleagues who were in the samechurch office, and the more that
added up, you know I thought itwas just, you know, it was just
opposition.
You know, I thought, it was justI thought it was just like I
gotta prove them wrong, you know, and maybe there is wisdom in
listening to that kind offeedback and that kind of like
external non-confirmation, as itwere.
Joe Miller (29:26):
You know, I think this is really.
I appreciate transparency,because I think there oftentimes
people get a little stuck herebecause what's not being said is
that you, you couldn't beskilled in certain aspects of a
role.
You could be very skilled in it, right.
People can get very confused bythis situation and get the
(29:47):
ability overlapping with theconcept of a gift, right,
they're not the same.
I mean, in my experience,having gifting in a certain area
will make it maybe easier foryou to then develop the skills,
but they're not the same and youcan be very successful as you
lean into your skill set.
(30:08):
When I was heading IT and I didwell, you know, but it wasn't
really the technology part ofthe job that lit me up, as I'm
sure that you probably have asimilar analogy it was other
things.
It was really dealing withpeople, it was managing change.
Those are really more the gifts, and gifts don't necessarily
(30:28):
fall within a particular jobdescription.
So it may not be that you havethe confirmation to becoming a
pastor, but certain aspects ofwhat's important in being a
pastor being a shepherd, beingan encourager I see those in you
.
I see them in the content inyour YouTube videos and in your
heart, so I'm sure they're there.
(30:48):
That doesn't mean thosegiftings can't be used in a
completely different setting.
Yes, you're right, and I thinkwe have this paradigm of job and
role.
This is part of the journey andI think this is what makes it a
little bit tough at times forus to discern.
And, as you said, you get thatinternal confirmation through
the spirit.
(31:08):
We get that internalconfirmation in our hearts but
it really is looking at skills,looking at gifting, looking at
our passions which really iskind of our response.
Do we say this is the rightplace, this I can get excited
about.
This May I share somethingabout internal confirmation.
Justin Chan (31:30):
Sometimes, I think, we try to hear a distinct voice
of God saying you must do this.
And I think, the more maturewe've become, I think the more
God wants us to make responsiblechoices for ourselves, and that
sometimes he doesn'tspecifically say you are going
(31:51):
to do this, but he lets you beaware and makes you cognizant of
.
You have these skills, thesegiftings.
I want you to make aresponsible choice, to do
something that honors me, and Ithink too many of us wait for
the audible voice of God whenGod is trying to tell us like
everything that you do for mecan be used for my glory.
(32:13):
So just do one thing, just picksomething and run with it.
And so, yeah, another piece ofadvice I will give my younger
self, that is don't wait toolong on the Lord.
Sometimes he wants you to makea decision for yourself.
Joe Miller (32:25):
Yeah, years ago I was engaged with a Christian
coach and I was struggling overa decision and he pointed me to
a reference of an author who,basically, was struggling with
making a choice and she actuallycame to the point where she
just said and prayed God, juststop me, if this is wrong,
(32:48):
because I'm not hearing anythingclearly, but I'm being drawn
towards it, rather than theother way around, to your point,
waiting for the blinding light.
We've already been told throughScripture, we've been given
general guidance and we can testour direction against what's
already been revealed to us.
So we have that as a guide too.
One of the recurring themes,justin, that's come through many
(33:10):
of my conversations is thiscomfort zone challenge, where
we're kind of wired for safetyand we may be drawn or
heart-made pulling us forward.
We may be seeing, feeling a call, but we may pause, we may
overanalyze, we may get intoparalysis by analysis because,
(33:30):
we're so afraid of making amistake, or so afraid of what
the other voices around us wouldsay, that we don't take that
kind of a leap and we don'ttrust that it'll be okay.
You could always readjust if itisn't quite right.
We're just afraid of leavingthat comfort zone at times.
So, anyway, I'll get off mystump.
Justin Chan (33:51):
Well, I mean to quickly draw back Scripture.
I mean, moses was 80 years oldand God called him to do
something different with hislife.
The biggest career switch 80years old.
Joe Miller (34:00):
And lately with Moses I've thought about.
Another piece of advice I'veheard is get off the outcome and
focus more on.
As you say, step out and do it,but because Moses' ultimate
outcome was he wanted to enterthe Promised Land.
It never happened and thinkabout how revered he was in the
(34:21):
Jewish faith and as Christiansas well, but he never entered.
That was something that hedidn't get to do, but in so many
other ways he did what heneeded it to be doing.
So anyway, that's great.
I would like to be able to sortof pivot and just wrap up a
little bit more about how peoplecan reach you.
(34:42):
Do you have any future projectsor things you're working on you
think might be of interest?
So this is your time.
Justin Chan (34:48):
Sure, sure, you can find me at all about worship
guitar, that the handle is atall about worship guitar, all
spent in one phrase, no specialsymbols whatsoever.
I'm thankful.
I'm very thankful that no oneelse has gotten that handle yet.
So I'm quite easy to find.
On social media it's all aboutworship guitar on YouTube,
instagram and, I believe,facebook too.
I'm quite a negligent aboutFacebook stuff because it's just
(35:11):
too many platforms to consider,but with YouTube I am in this
phase of doing other kinds ofgear, if you're not just on
Helix.
So Helix has been one majorit's the biggest draw of my
channel, I suppose.
But I've been drawn to look atother kinds of more budget
friendly kind of gear andhopefully I can come up with
(35:32):
some content that aligns withpeople's interest in finding
gear options of a certain pricepoint.
That's ideas in a pipeline.
I also do want to have somesome more technique videos, so I
am working in a pipeline to.
One of the videos that I'mreally excited about is how to
play acoustic guitar.
Well, I don't know about youguys in the US, but in Singapore
(35:53):
and Singaporean churches everychurch guitarist has this notion
of like.
You must have like.
Choose one or four strongstarting patterns to insert into
the song, and sometimes thatdoesn't work Most of the time it
doesn't work.
So I do want to create a seriesof videos of demonstrating how
do you develop the instinct togroove with the song on your
(36:15):
acoustic guitar.
That's, but yeah, that'spipeline project.
I'm also involved in producingmusic.
Because of the pandemic, I'vehad the opportunity to really
dig deep and and hone myengineering chops.
So I I have a couple of EPs upon my Spotify profile, so if you
, if you search for, I think Imight give you the link to put
(36:36):
in the show, the show notesdescription.
Yeah, I'm on Spotify, I'm onApple Music, I believe, and it's
basically music that I'vereally wanted Like it's 20 years
too late, I guess.
I always wanted to do my ownmusic and never had a chance to.
So with the pandemic andlearning how to do it, I'm like
you know what I'm just going toput out?
Music that I've wanted to putout, and my burden has always
(36:56):
been to to present hymns in amore contemporary light, and so
I have reharmonized a lot ofhymns and hymn texts, basically
taking a hymn text that no one'sdone before, no one's sung, put
it into, I put it into that andand that's, that's part of my
music projects and I've got afew more.
Joe Miller (37:14):
So you put different melodies under these hymn texts
.
Justin Chan (37:17):
Yes, yes, so, yes, so there are.
Of course I don't touch thefamous ones, the famous ones,
everyone, you know, everyone hasan opinion.
You know, like you cannot touchamazing grace or like, unless
you're Chris Tomlin, but I'm not.
So I do have reharmonized hymnsand it's a fun way to answer
the question how do I play ahymn with a full band?
And that was one that's aburden in my church, at least in
(37:40):
my church context, likewhenever people's, whenever a
band encounters a hymn, they golike, oh, why don't we just let
the pianist play it, let theorganist play it, we don't need
to play it.
No man, everyone can play it ina hymn.
So that's my attempt tomodernize and to show people hey
, you know, you guys canactually play a hymn in a rock
band format, and that's that'spersonal project of mine.
Joe Miller (38:03):
Yeah, that can be a little risky at times.
Which I was at in California aworship leader, Nancy back in
the day, everyone was playingLord, I lift your name on high.
Every church was playing thatright and the same way
constantly.
And we did one Sunday, withouttelling the senior pastor, we
did that song for verses andeach verse was a different style
(38:24):
.
We did the traditional stylefirst, then we switched to, I
think, country, I think we didjazz and then reggae or
something like that, and it wasso much fun for the musicians I
don't know how much the seniorpastor appreciated it, but it
was a blast.
Is there have people who can dothat, and she and some of the
(38:45):
musicians.
I was just pleased to be on thestage with them and be able to.
Justin Chan (38:48):
Is there a recording of this?
I hope there's a recording Ican see.
Joe Miller (38:51):
I don't think so.
I mean, I don't think I couldget to it.
Justin Chan (38:55):
I mean the gears on my.
Anyway, that's my homo later on.
Joe Miller (38:59):
This has been so much fun talking to you, justin.
Thank you so much for being onthe podcast.
I really appreciate it andfolks please do check those
links out and follow up withJustin If you have an interest.
Appreciate your heart, brother.
Justin Chan (39:11):
Thank you, Joe.
Joe Miller (39:12):
And let's do stay in touch.
Justin Chan (39:14):
Let's do.
God bless you.
Joe Miller (39:17):
Hey, thanks for joining me today on Titans of
Transition.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Please check the show notes foradditional information.
When did you formally let go of your career
as a chemical engineer Processengineer.
Justin Chan (00:06):
That was when I was challenged to do full-time
ministry in my church and ofcourse I dove into the deep end
with that move because I had noidea why I was like working in
church the question that comesup often, because when you take
your foot out of the oldcomfortable place that you were,
there's a letting go, releasing.
Joe Miller (00:25):
that occurs as you then move forward into your new
direction.
And how did you deal with that?
I mean, was there sometrepidation?
Was there some concern or fear?
I hear you, lord, but is this acrazy move?
Justin Chan (00:38):
I can assure you it was 100% trepidation and it's
worse.
Joe Miller (00:42):
Really happy to have Justin Chan with me here on
Titans of Transition.
Hey, justin, justin is aworship guitarist.
I'm kind of on a roll here withdoing interviews for musicians
and talking about theirtransition stories and their
lessons learned.
I came across Justin because Iplay a guitar in my church as
(01:03):
well and follow a number ofdifferent people on YouTube, and
I just really appreciated hiswork and his spirit.
So he'll be joining us fromSingapore.
Justin, why don't you tell usjust a little bit about what you
currently do?
Tell us a little bit aboutSingapore and life in Singapore.
Justin Chan (01:21):
Sure, joe.
Hi Joe and hi everyone thispodcast.
I'm Justin.
I'm from Singapore.
Singapore is a tiny island thatis at the very bottom of
Malaysia.
So if you know where Malaysiais, that V shape kind of like a
peninsula, it's right at thebottom.
You can't even see it on aregular scale map.
You got to scale down and see,oh there's a tiny island right
(01:41):
there and Singapore is a citystate, it's very much a
metropolis.
There's no such thing ascountryside living here.
So all of us live in dense,high density, high rise
apartments and because of thatwe're all maybe a bit high
strung, a bit more stressed out.
And, as you can possibly tell, Idon't speak Chinese, even
(02:03):
though I look like I'm Chinese.
My Chinese is terrible andthat's probably characteristic
of some of us here.
There's a minority of us herewho quite quote, unquote,
westernized in our music choices, in our life choices.
So my favorite books are youknow I can name Western, western
authors and Western music as myfavorite media bit very little
(02:24):
Chinese stuff, negligible.
And I am currently at theMethodist School of Music.
It is a that's my day job.
So YouTube is not my full timething, even though I wish it
were.
My YouTube channel is ElectricGuitarist doing worship ministry
and that is an outflow from myday job in the Methodist School
of Music and that is I curate,design, implement training
(02:47):
programs for church musicianteams.
So if anyone needs to do banddynamics, I'm the guy they call.
If anyone wants to plan acourse on how to integrate the
electric guitar into a worshipteam, I'm the guy that they will
call and the worship?
The Methodist School of Musicis comprised of basically two
arms.
That's the general music arm,which they teach piano, violin,
(03:09):
abrsm, which is like the, youknow, the standard qualification
body for music.
Then you've got the worshipmusic side, which is me and my,
my department and my, mycolleagues, and we all are
involved in some way or form oftraining the church in Singapore
and even though it's there'sMethodist in the name we are.
We cater to anyone, any churchin Singapore, who wants to level
(03:30):
up their worship ministry.
Joe Miller (03:32):
Oh, that's great.
I'm sure we have people joiningus who may not be that familiar
with church music and churchministry.
In my last interview with JohnCorte we touched on it a little
bit and I was surprised you know, happily, but surprised that he
had spent some time playing inchurch as well.
So we may want to take sometime and, and you know, later on
(03:53):
in this podcast and talk aboutthe differences and the
similarities in playing in agroup in the church versus
playing in sort of a normalsecular kind of a band or
something like that and you'veplayed in bands too, it's not
like you haven't done that, soas well.
So, but the main focus of thispodcast is really talking about
life and career transitions.
(04:15):
So why don't we start off, ifit's okay, and kind of get a
sense on how you landed in thiscurrent role at this music
school and you know doing whatyou're doing?
Justin Chan (04:26):
It's a long and windy road and, thanks to Joe,
sounds like a.
Joe Miller (04:30):
Paul McCartney song Long and windy road.
Justin Chan (04:34):
Sucking.
You said that.
Second, I said that I thoughtthat song too.
So, yes, it is a long and windyroad, but the Cliff Notes
version and possibly andhopefully the five minute
version of the story is that Iarrived here as a result of a
few key events in my life thatthat pushed me towards number
(04:57):
one full time ministry andnumber two music in ministry.
Specifically, all along as Iwas growing up, my dream was to
become the next rock star, rockmusician, and I always dreamt
and even now it's still a dreamof playing on stage in a band
and making music and so just tointerrupt you just a second,
(05:18):
what like Joe Satriani andothers like that?
Oh man, I was convinced I wasgoing to be the next John
Prichucci and an Asian theater.
Yeah, I was.
Yeah, I was in a.
I was actually in a dreamtheater cover band at one point
in time and I was, yeah, and I,and that was pre-YouTube and
pre-recording days.
So like there's like almostzero evidence of me having done
(05:38):
that could be a good thing.
I have to take all the songsand slow it down by, like you
know, to 15%.
Yeah, so I had childhood dreamsof being a rock star and
musician and as I was growing upand being in an Asian household
, the general advice that myparents were comfortable with
and the trajectory that theywere comfortable with was if I
could get a normal day job andwork on music as a side.
(06:01):
And that was the life plan toget a degree, to get an
undergraduate and something andthen work at music on the side.
But something happened gettingthe full-time day job, and that
was in Singapore.
Before we go to higher education, all Singaporean males have to
serve two years in nationalservice, and between junior
(06:24):
college and university, that is,or at least between the two
phases of education, there'slike a six-month gap between
when you end school and when youstart national service.
And for me, I was due to enternational service but I still had
a six-month kind of like lagtime, of like just downtime.
(06:44):
I was totally free During thattime.
My church friends they werepart of an organization called
Singapore Youth for Christ, andSingapore Youth for Christ is a
paratroop organization.
They are not affiliated withany church but they are
comprised of staff andvolunteers whose main goal is to
do outreach to youth and youthprograms.
(07:06):
And then and Youth for Christ,there are basically two ways
that they run programs.
If there's the school-basedministries, which they do direct
outreach in the schools, andthen they've got interest-based
outreach, which is they've gotdifferent groups that cater to
different like ministry points.
So, for example, the sportsministry, so they get sporty
(07:27):
people to come in.
I was invited to attend aprogram at the Performing Arts
Ministry, performing artsministry, so it's a.
They call it ProjectServe.
It's a three to six monthprogram where you take on it's
like an internship you go in andyou are treated and you perform
as the same duties as afull-time staff would at the at
(07:50):
Sigour Yufa Christ, and so forthree to six months I ended up
staying there for the whole sixmonths duration.
I did the stint there inProjectServe and basically we
the main goal of that program,the main highlight, I should say
, is that you can they plan andorganize an evangelistic concert
using radio songs and theycraft a gospel message based on
(08:12):
the radio songs.
And so that was my firstexposure to seeing that music
can be used for purposes otherthan self-expression and
creative expression.
And I was number one blown awayby that connection between
music.
And I think at the point intime seeds were being sown in my
heart to start desiring more ofthis kind of meaningful
(08:34):
connections and this kind ofmeaningful work, because I
started to see that music wasmore than just self-expression,
more than just cutting your ownalbums and making it big.
Joe Miller (08:44):
So, justin, so going into this, this gap period
leading up to your internshipwith Yufa Christ, did you have
some career direction in mind atthat time?
Justin Chan (08:55):
Yes, yes, because actually by that time I already
had a degree.
I did my path was slightlyinverted that most people go to
junior college than army, and sobefore going to army, and
actually before going to YufaChrist, I already had a degree
in chemical engineering andprocess technology.
So actually, when you mentionedpharmaceuticals and chemical
(09:16):
chemists, I can totally relate,because I was in pharmaceutical
manufacturing for two years, youknow, as part of the day job,
as it was.
Joe Miller (09:23):
So there, you go Okay, let's get back on track.
You had done this internshipand you felt like it really
resonated with you at that pointin time.
Is that that?
I read that?
Justin Chan (09:33):
Yes yes, In a nutshell, that happened.
That was the.
That was the aha moment where Icould see that music could be
meaningfully used and it gave mea sense of deeper purpose, that
I was engaging in in not justcreative expression, but
creative expression with apurpose, if you know what I mean
.
That was a Yufa Christ.
And that was part one.
(09:54):
Actually, part two of the storyis doing my national service, I
actually got injured.
Both my wrists have geneticallyweak ligaments, so these
ligaments, central ligamentinside these wrists they will
tear and they were torn duringmy time in national service.
It was so injured, they were sobadly injured that my technique
(10:16):
was basically erased.
All those years that I spent,you know, playing up dream
theater chops, it was gone.
I couldn't play guitar.
It was one percent of theability that I had.
That was the, that process ofbeing broken down and it forced
me to examine my outlook in lifeand basically I felt that the
question was asked to me who amI without music?
(10:38):
Or who am I without a guitar?
If, if God would take away theguitar from me, how would I
survive, you know, would Isurvive?
And and the honest answer atthat point in time, when the
first happened was that I feltlost and I felt that it was all
doing gloom.
For quite a while actually andby God's grace he healed my
wrists.
I can't play as fast as thatanymore, but doing that process
(10:58):
of being broken down and andrelearning my technique, that
was the opportunity for me tolook at what else God has given
me and God gave has given me todo and to explore those options
and doing that phase.
And actually these these eventsoccurred almost back to back,
because I did my internship atyouth for Christ, then I went
into army and then got injured,so that was a whole period of
(11:21):
okay, if everything's going tobe stripped down, what else can
I do?
I was challenged to go tochurch and.
I obeyed whatever prompting wasgiven to me, and that was
exploring.
That was the period exploringOkay, if I'm not going to be a
musician, maybe I could be apastor.
And and as long story short, itbecame quite clear that I was
better suited to work in otherareas of ministry other than
(11:45):
being a pastor in the MethodistChurch in Singapore, and because
of that I was freed up to enterseminary.
So I did three years ofseminary.
I got a theological degree, amaster's of divinity, and during
that time I interned at theMethodist School of Music,
because they I have a feweducation and requirement to
fulfill as part of my degree,and that was the time that my
(12:07):
current boss now gave me theopportunity to teach causes
there.
She gave me free reign todesign and teach.
I believe it was like three tofour Saturdays of electric
guitar workshop and, and ofcourse that was something that
that we've compiled and packagedit now at the Methodist School
(12:27):
of Music, but back then it wasthe first time they ever did
that in that current formatanyway, and I felt, wow, this is
something I felt at home.
I thought this is likesomething that really marries my
interest and passion in music,my alignment with wanting to do
this for purpose and for for agreater purpose, and I don't
(12:48):
have to play as fast as JobJiu-Jitsu to serve in this
capacity.
And so, in a nutshell, this iswhere I felt like the job fit
right like a glove.
My boss really wanted me there.
There were no obstructions togetting in, no one was telling
me that this was a bad idea, andeveryone who saw that move said
that, yeah, this is totallywhat Justin would do, and and
(13:11):
and so you had some some uncleexternal validation.
Yes, yes, yes.
So this was a good place foryou, yeah.
Well, my well, my classmateswere all.
They were graduating, they weregoing back to the churches to
work as full-time staff or to goon to become ordained pastors.
They look at me and and we'rewith mine path into Methodist
school music and they said, yeah, that's, that's totally what
(13:32):
you should be doing, like youknow, don't let let us be the
pastors.
We need more people like you togo into to this, because
there's only one of you that'slike so many of us.
Joe Miller (13:43):
Right, Right.
So when did you formally let goof your career as a chemical
engineer?
Process engineer.
Justin Chan (13:51):
That was when I was challenged to do full-time
ministry in my church.
I felt, I felt that promptingto serve in my church, even
though I I wasn't.
I didn't know exactly what thatwould entail and of course I I
dove into the deep end with thatmove because I had no idea why
I was like working in church andand that really opened my eyes
and and and good and bad ways, Isuppose.
Joe Miller (14:10):
Yeah, I it's, it's.
It's a question that comes upoften because people they sort
of keep one foot in both worlds,which isn't a bad thing, as you
sort of test the waters, butwhen you take your foot out of
the old comfortable place thatyou were, when maybe you were
making good salary, you knowwhat it takes to be successful
(14:31):
and you there's a letting go.
It was a releasing.
That occurs as you then moveforward into your new direction,
so sometimes that can be a bigchallenge.
How did you deal with that?
I mean, was there sometrepidation?
Was there some concern or fear?
I hear you, lord, but is this acrazy move?
Justin Chan (14:49):
I can assure you it was 100% trepidation and it's
worse as an Asian kid in anAsian household but prompted me
to take up to obey.
The call to take up challengewas number one I felt the burden
do a lot more in church andwith a lot more of my time than
I could afford as part-time, asan engineer.
And number two there werepeople who provided support and
(15:11):
gave me the assurance that theywould support me going to church
and the key person was mythen-girlfriend now my wife.
Back then, even before westarted the courtship season,
the day that I told her that Iwanted to get serious with her,
I told her that I was eventuallygoing to full-time ministry.
(15:32):
And are you okay with that?
And it was okay.
If you're not okay with it, youhave the opportunity to walk
away.
She didn't walk away and shesaid that she would support me
and she even incorporated thatshe would support me in
full-time ministry even in ourwedding vows.
And to this day, that is stillthe number one call memory for
(15:54):
me and it still gives me thatdrive each and every day that
I'm doing this on this crazyjourney of full-time ministry.
Joe Miller (16:01):
Together and I will drop in the show notes a link to
your video that prompted meactually to reach out to you to
request an interview with you,justin, where you honored your
wife and thanked her for hersupport.
That was very touching.
That kind of partnership iswonderful and I can speak for
(16:23):
myself kind of in the retirementyears and how many years I put
my wife through all kinds ofcrazy situations, changing jobs
and moving across our country ofthe US and so having that
partnership is really valuable,that consideration as well.
So there was kind of a ahamoment that you exposed it.
(16:45):
There was an epiphany where yousaid, wow, this is really good,
I really like this, this is it,and then moving forward from
that pretty much full steamahead, I guess right.
Justin Chan (16:57):
Yes, that's right.
Joe Miller (16:58):
So what can we pivot now and talk about what's life
like for you?
So what's your typical day?
What does it look like?
Obviously, if you're working inthe church, there is a schedule
every week.
I know I'm on the worship teamof my church, so you know I work
on the music leading up torehearsal times and, of course,
(17:21):
there's the actual worshipservice or services on Sunday
morning.
So, as someone who's part ofthat or leading that, you have
additional requirements to getahead of things, and I know from
my background but others maynot know what your day is like.
And then, if you can bring inthis part, this YouTube part,
(17:43):
because you're putting out a lotof material to serve other
worship musicians and worshipguitarists, electric guitarists
as well so tell us a little bitabout your job and what that's
like and then bring in the wholeYouTube thing and what you
bring.
Justin Chan (18:00):
Okay, work in metastical music is seasonal.
It depends on quite a fewthings.
Number one the seasons, withthe church, with calendar.
Normally we have concerts thatwe plan and execute at various
churches.
So we have an advent concert,we have a Christmas concert, we
have a Lent concert and we havelike a Good Friday, easter sort
(18:22):
of like concerts.
So those and those concerts canappear in various forms.
The one that is most prominentis we have a volunteer choir to
perform with those concerts, andI say concert but it's really
like a theme to service.
And even though I said that myjob discussion is to design,
curate and implement bandtraining, I'm very much involved
in the other side.
(18:43):
My music performance side iscan be in these concerts because
I play guitar for theseconcerts.
I'll arrange some music forthese concerts.
So those are for the key eventsand but the day to day job,
when inquiry from church comesin let's say a church wants to
do band training I would have toplan out when is the best time
for me to go in and sit in withtheir rehearsals.
(19:06):
Number one sit in with theirband meetings, if they do have
band meetings outside ofrehearsals and that can take up
several Saturdays at a go, andso there was a period like for
some reason, a lot of churchesare very free and like toward
the end of year, like October,so there was one October,
november.
Every single Saturday I was in,I was in either one or two
(19:27):
churches working hand in handwith them.
So I like to work withspecialty training so I don't I
try to do like generic trainingso I just cater specifically to
that church and so that's a lotof hand holding as a lot of
direct involvement with thechurch.
So I would sit in with theirrehearsal, I would then teach
and implement some band trainingtechniques with that particular
(19:50):
worship team or the worshipministry, depending on how
whether they want a wholeministry wide thing or they just
want band tuition for one bandas a word and then I would watch
their worship service.
Right now, because of thepandemic, every church has the
ability to record their servicesand so I would review their
footage and I'll watch or takenotes and I'll have a post
(20:12):
Sunday meeting with the band totell them what they did right or
they did wrong, what can theyimprove, and that whole process
from pre band meeting to postSunday meeting can be four or
five Saturdays for one church,and so there are times I've had
two or three churches areworking concurrently and that,
yeah, that takes up a lot ofweekends.
(20:33):
Aside from that, we also havesome causes that we run
independent of like this kind oftraining.
So we have like a cause wewould run every last Saturday of
the month for six months and wecall that the certificate of
Christian, certificate inChristian worship, and I would
take the, the musician track oftraining the bands there.
(20:55):
So every last Saturday of themonth I've got one class that I
would teach and, of course, ifany church wants to do a seminar
, they want to do a weekend oftraining, I would avail myself
to teach at that church.
Joe Miller (21:07):
So it's very much like a consultancy.
Yes, you can say that so yeah,and it's not just the face to
face time but like any otherconsultancy, you have to do your
research to understand wherethey are.
Oh, yeah, yeah, what their asis is what their to be is pretty
much, pretty much pretty muchIndigo right Indeed, and how
(21:29):
YouTube fits into all of this isduring the pandemic.
Justin Chan (21:33):
a lot of the audio and video production skills were
learned right then, becausewhen we suddenly couldn't meet
up face to face, I had to pivotand work entirely to produce
digital content like videoseminars, zoom, conferences, and
so a lot of these skills ofwhat does good video look like,
how does good audio sound like,how do you mix it live.
(21:56):
The early days of the pandemic,when we had to do like total
lockdown in Singapore, I wasmixing.
I was producing worship musicvideos for church, at least two
to three a week.
So I had to, I had to, I had tocollate everyone's home
recordings.
I had to mix the audio and geta good mix out of that.
(22:16):
So mixing, mastering, the wholeengineering process and then
after that produce the videowhere they would film themselves
at home and stitching ittogether.
And then you know right then.
And then I learned videoediting.
Joe Miller (22:31):
So some of these were all stitched together.
They weren't like just theworship team in the room with
masks or something recorded.
You had to piece these together.
Justin Chan (22:42):
Yeah, we couldn't even go into church so we oh my
gosh, that's what a challenge.
Yeah.
So we we got a chance to seewhat everyone's houses look like
, what everyone's bedroom looklike, for a period and, yeah,
that season really boosted myvideo and audio production
skills and I thought, well, thismight be a time to really take
(23:02):
my channel seriously and with.
I've always wanted to be aneducational channel, I wanted to
teach, and one of the outletswhere I can do anything I want
and for anything I wanted totalk about, deep dive into
subjects that would beconsidered too nerdy to do live.
I can do it on YouTube and Iguess I'm thankful that there is
(23:24):
an audience that people arewatching and can geek out with
me with my gear and my techstuff.
And I have tried to dotechnique stuff as well, like
guitar technique stuff, but Ijust haven't had the time to to
really write out tabs and tolike, like, like, go through the
exercise I really want to dothat I don't have.
Joe Miller (23:41):
Yeah, well, in your situation, since you are working
at the school I mean I'mproducing course and curriculum
and delivering and doingconsulting it's a different mix
than some some guitarists onYouTube, where it's really more
about monetization and that sortof their full time job so they
can justify writing tabs andother things you might want to,
(24:03):
but it's a lot of work.
Justin Chan (24:04):
It is, it is.
Joe Miller (24:05):
Yeah, it's interesting, and when I asked
the question at the verybeginning of this segment, I
completely misspoke and said youknow going into the church, but
of course you're at the schooland so the work you're doing at
your own church is voluntary, Iimagine.
Yes, yes, my worship leading,so you have that too.
Justin Chan (24:24):
Yes, I've got that too.
And the fun thing about YouTube, I guess, is that because I'm
deep diving to all this gear,I'm able to take some of this
deep diving and implement it inchurch.
So I didn't get, you know, Iwouldn't have a chance to use
Ableton live on stage if not forthe the, you know, if not for
me having to sit down and figureout okay, how am I going to use
my Helix as an Ableton livecontroller?
(24:47):
And then research, figure out,then come out with a script and
then film it.
You know, film it, teach it andthen get it recorded.
It's teaching myself first, Ithink, with YouTube.
So YouTube it's a.
I guess it's the cathartic inthat I get to teach what I want
to teach, but it's also I get totrain myself in the things that
I talk about.
Joe Miller (25:08):
Yes, absolutely, because you have mine, you want
to bring this out, and so, inorder to bring it out, you have
to do your preparation for thoseepisodes and or you know it can
be I'm going to learn this andI'm going to bring my YouTube
audience along along my journeywhat I discover and what works
in that context.
So, in terms of the transitionsthen and I think we got a little
(25:30):
bit about your YouTube channeland I will put in the notes
obviously links to that, becauseI think, it's a great resource
for those who are listening, whoare on worship teams, who are
leading worship there's a lot ofgreat insights and for just
general musicians and guitaristswho are interested in certain
types of gear.
I know you spend a lot of timewith Helix platform, which is
(25:55):
very popular, so people probablyfind you just doing searches on
those devices and it's greatcontent.
But in terms of the transitionsyou've gone through, what kind
of lessons have come out?
If you were going to this is myadvice to your younger self
question If you were to turn theclock back, Justin, based upon
the paths that you've gone onand the transitions you've made,
(26:17):
what advice would you have toothers?
Justin Chan (26:19):
I think the number one advice I would give to at
least people consideringfull-time ministry and full-time
music ministry is that beprepared that music is only one
part of the equation.
And I say that because it's abit of a root shock to you take
on a job or you take on aposition and suddenly realize
(26:40):
that you've got to not just, Iguess, perform your role as a
musician or consultant, but alsoyou have to balance budgets,
need to write reports and youneed to defend your decisions
regarding why you boughtequipment A versus equipment B.
All this, as you would call it,red tape.
Sooner we embrace that notionthat ministry is more than just
(27:03):
music.
Ministry is also administration.
It's also having to be faithfulin these things.
It depends on the situationyou're in and depends on the
context you're in.
The sooner you realize thatthere is a level of
administration to embrace, notjust plow through on or not just
.
Like you know, I have to justsurvive this.
If you embrace it and if youtry to internalize and get it
(27:24):
past part of your internalsystem, that will go down a lot
faster and a lot easier.
You won't have those days whereyou bang your head on the wall
saying, why do I have?
Why do?
I balance budgets, or like whydon't you provide three
quotations?
Or like you know that and dothat kind of head begging when
I'm called to be a musician orI'm called to be someone to to
(27:45):
bless the congregation with youare blessing people, brace, that
you're part of the overall teamof this organization and not
just in this one area.
Joe Miller (27:56):
Other things that come to mind.
You know we talked a little bitabout knowing that you were
making the right move.
And how did you?
How did you know?
Justin Chan (28:04):
I think there are two factors to also so some
advice also is to open your eyesto both external and internal
confirmations.
The internal confirmation, ofcourse, is after your prayer,
after your devotion to the Lord,your quiet time.
Where do you sense him leadingyou towards?
Sometimes his voice isn't easyto discern with all the
(28:25):
background climber going around.
The external validation is alsoquite important.
If you feel that you're going ina certain direction and
everyone says that that's a badidea, it probably is a bad idea
as much as we try to claim theverse.
You know I can do all things toChrist who strengthens me.
That's not what the verse istrying to tell you.
So external confirmation is animportant thing.
(28:46):
I would have probably listenedto my closer friends when they
told me that maybe being apastor wasn't a good fit for you
and maybe my process would havebeen faster if I had heeded
that advice, because it wasn'tjust one person, it was a couple
of people already telling thatto me, not just my pastor in
charge, but, you know, my pastoroverseeing me and a few of my
(29:07):
colleagues who were in the samechurch office, and the more that
added up, you know I thought itwas just, you know, it was just
opposition.
You know, I thought, it was justI thought it was just like I
gotta prove them wrong, you know, and maybe there is wisdom in
listening to that kind offeedback and that kind of like
external non-confirmation, as itwere.
Joe Miller (29:26):
You know, I think this is really.
I appreciate transparency,because I think there oftentimes
people get a little stuck herebecause what's not being said is
that you, you couldn't beskilled in certain aspects of a
role.
You could be very skilled in it, right.
People can get very confused bythis situation and get the
(29:47):
ability overlapping with theconcept of a gift, right,
they're not the same.
I mean, in my experience,having gifting in a certain area
will make it maybe easier foryou to then develop the skills,
but they're not the same and youcan be very successful as you
lean into your skill set.
(30:08):
When I was heading IT and I didwell, you know, but it wasn't
really the technology part ofthe job that lit me up, as I'm
sure that you probably have asimilar analogy it was other
things.
It was really dealing withpeople, it was managing change.
Those are really more the gifts, and gifts don't necessarily
(30:28):
fall within a particular jobdescription.
So it may not be that you havethe confirmation to becoming a
pastor, but certain aspects ofwhat's important in being a
pastor being a shepherd, beingan encourager I see those in you
.
I see them in the content inyour YouTube videos and in your
heart, so I'm sure they're there.
(30:48):
That doesn't mean thosegiftings can't be used in a
completely different setting.
Yes, you're right, and I thinkwe have this paradigm of job and
role.
This is part of the journey andI think this is what makes it a
little bit tough at times forus to discern.
And, as you said, you get thatinternal confirmation through
the spirit.
(31:08):
We get that internalconfirmation in our hearts but
it really is looking at skills,looking at gifting, looking at
our passions which really iskind of our response.
Do we say this is the rightplace, this I can get excited
about.
This May I share somethingabout internal confirmation.
Justin Chan (31:30):
Sometimes, I think, we try to hear a distinct voice
of God saying you must do this.
And I think, the more maturewe've become, I think the more
God wants us to make responsiblechoices for ourselves, and that
sometimes he doesn'tspecifically say you are going
(31:51):
to do this, but he lets you beaware and makes you cognizant of
.
You have these skills, thesegiftings.
I want you to make aresponsible choice, to do
something that honors me, and Ithink too many of us wait for
the audible voice of God whenGod is trying to tell us like
everything that you do for mecan be used for my glory.
(32:13):
So just do one thing, just picksomething and run with it.
And so, yeah, another piece ofadvice I will give my younger
self, that is don't wait toolong on the Lord.
Sometimes he wants you to makea decision for yourself.
Joe Miller (32:25):
Yeah, years ago I was engaged with a Christian
coach and I was struggling overa decision and he pointed me to
a reference of an author who,basically, was struggling with
making a choice and she actuallycame to the point where she
just said and prayed God, juststop me, if this is wrong,
(32:48):
because I'm not hearing anythingclearly, but I'm being drawn
towards it, rather than theother way around, to your point,
waiting for the blinding light.
We've already been told throughScripture, we've been given
general guidance and we can testour direction against what's
already been revealed to us.
So we have that as a guide too.
One of the recurring themes,justin, that's come through many
(33:10):
of my conversations is thiscomfort zone challenge, where
we're kind of wired for safetyand we may be drawn or
heart-made pulling us forward.
We may be seeing, feeling a call, but we may pause, we may
overanalyze, we may get intoparalysis by analysis because,
(33:30):
we're so afraid of making amistake, or so afraid of what
the other voices around us wouldsay, that we don't take that
kind of a leap and we don'ttrust that it'll be okay.
You could always readjust if itisn't quite right.
We're just afraid of leavingthat comfort zone at times.
So, anyway, I'll get off mystump.
Justin Chan (33:51):
Well, I mean to quickly draw back Scripture.
I mean, moses was 80 years oldand God called him to do
something different with hislife.
The biggest career switch 80years old.
Joe Miller (34:00):
And lately with Moses I've thought about.
Another piece of advice I'veheard is get off the outcome and
focus more on.
As you say, step out and do it,but because Moses' ultimate
outcome was he wanted to enterthe Promised Land.
It never happened and thinkabout how revered he was in the
(34:21):
Jewish faith and as Christiansas well, but he never entered.
That was something that hedidn't get to do, but in so many
other ways he did what heneeded it to be doing.
So anyway, that's great.
I would like to be able to sortof pivot and just wrap up a
little bit more about how peoplecan reach you.
(34:42):
Do you have any future projectsor things you're working on you
think might be of interest?
So this is your time.
Justin Chan (34:48):
Sure, sure, you can find me at all about worship
guitar, that the handle is atall about worship guitar, all
spent in one phrase, no specialsymbols whatsoever.
I'm thankful.
I'm very thankful that no oneelse has gotten that handle yet.
So I'm quite easy to find.
On social media it's all aboutworship guitar on YouTube,
instagram and, I believe,facebook too.
I'm quite a negligent aboutFacebook stuff because it's just
(35:11):
too many platforms to consider,but with YouTube I am in this
phase of doing other kinds ofgear, if you're not just on
Helix.
So Helix has been one majorit's the biggest draw of my
channel, I suppose.
But I've been drawn to look atother kinds of more budget
friendly kind of gear andhopefully I can come up with
(35:32):
some content that aligns withpeople's interest in finding
gear options of a certain pricepoint.
That's ideas in a pipeline.
I also do want to have somesome more technique videos, so I
am working in a pipeline to.
One of the videos that I'mreally excited about is how to
play acoustic guitar.
Well, I don't know about youguys in the US, but in Singapore
(35:53):
and Singaporean churches everychurch guitarist has this notion
of like.
You must have like.
Choose one or four strongstarting patterns to insert into
the song, and sometimes thatdoesn't work Most of the time it
doesn't work.
So I do want to create a seriesof videos of demonstrating how
do you develop the instinct togroove with the song on your
(36:15):
acoustic guitar.
That's, but yeah, that'spipeline project.
I'm also involved in producingmusic.
Because of the pandemic, I'vehad the opportunity to really
dig deep and and hone myengineering chops.
So I I have a couple of EPs upon my Spotify profile, so if you
, if you search for, I think Imight give you the link to put
(36:36):
in the show, the show notesdescription.
Yeah, I'm on Spotify, I'm onApple Music, I believe, and it's
basically music that I'vereally wanted Like it's 20 years
too late, I guess.
I always wanted to do my ownmusic and never had a chance to.
So with the pandemic andlearning how to do it, I'm like
you know what I'm just going toput out?
Music that I've wanted to putout, and my burden has always
(36:56):
been to to present hymns in amore contemporary light, and so
I have reharmonized a lot ofhymns and hymn texts, basically
taking a hymn text that no one'sdone before, no one's sung, put
it into, I put it into that andand that's, that's part of my
music projects and I've got afew more.
Joe Miller (37:14):
So you put different melodies under these hymn texts
.
Justin Chan (37:17):
Yes, yes, so, yes, so there are.
Of course I don't touch thefamous ones, the famous ones,
everyone, you know, everyone hasan opinion.
You know, like you cannot touchamazing grace or like, unless
you're Chris Tomlin, but I'm not.
So I do have reharmonized hymnsand it's a fun way to answer
the question how do I play ahymn with a full band?
And that was one that's aburden in my church, at least in
(37:40):
my church context, likewhenever people's, whenever a
band encounters a hymn, they golike, oh, why don't we just let
the pianist play it, let theorganist play it, we don't need
to play it.
No man, everyone can play it ina hymn.
So that's my attempt tomodernize and to show people hey
, you know, you guys canactually play a hymn in a rock
band format, and that's that'spersonal project of mine.
Joe Miller (38:03):
Yeah, that can be a little risky at times.
Which I was at in California aworship leader, Nancy back in
the day, everyone was playingLord, I lift your name on high.
Every church was playing thatright and the same way
constantly.
And we did one Sunday, withouttelling the senior pastor, we
did that song for verses andeach verse was a different style
(38:24):
.
We did the traditional stylefirst, then we switched to, I
think, country, I think we didjazz and then reggae or
something like that, and it wasso much fun for the musicians I
don't know how much the seniorpastor appreciated it, but it
was a blast.
Is there have people who can dothat, and she and some of the
(38:45):
musicians.
I was just pleased to be on thestage with them and be able to.
Justin Chan (38:48):
Is there a recording of this?
I hope there's a recording Ican see.
Joe Miller (38:51):
I don't think so.
I mean, I don't think I couldget to it.
Justin Chan (38:55):
I mean the gears on my.
Anyway, that's my homo later on.
Joe Miller (38:59):
This has been so much fun talking to you, justin.
Thank you so much for being onthe podcast.
I really appreciate it andfolks please do check those
links out and follow up withJustin If you have an interest.
Appreciate your heart, brother.
Justin Chan (39:11):
Thank you, Joe.
Joe Miller (39:12):
And let's do stay in touch.
Justin Chan (39:14):
Let's do.
God bless you.
Joe Miller (39:17):
Hey, thanks for joining me today on Titans of
Transition.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Please check the show notes foradditional information.
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