May 3, 2025 • 56 mins
Navigating radical change can feel overwhelming, but in this episode of Titans of Transition, I reconnect with Bob Tipton, a leadership expert and longtime supporter of the channel, to explore practical tools for success during uncertain times. Bob shares his personal journey navigating profound life changes—from his childhood to his professional career—and offers actionable strategies to help us all manage the emotional and psychological toll of rapid change.
We dive into the challenges of career transitions, the impact of constant information overload, and how awareness, intentionality, and resilience can transform our responses to adversity. Bob's unique combination of personal experience, leadership insight, and practical tools makes this conversation incredibly relatable and empowering. Whether you're leading a team through upheaval or managing your own life transitions, this episode will give you the clarity and confidence to move forward.
Don't miss this engaging discussion filled with life lessons, powerful anecdotes, and actionable advice. Join us as we unpack how to rise above the noise, reclaim your agency, and navigate the journey of radical change with purpose. Check out this episode and discover the tools you need to thrive!
NAVIGATING TIMES OF RADICAL CHANGE (brief intro video with Bob & links to webinar registration)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joe Miller (00:00):
Hey, welcome everyone.
I just wanted to jump on inhere and bring Bob Tipton on.
As you might know, if you'vebeen following the channel for a
while, Bob was my first Titansguest.
Actually, we recorded aroundthis time, maybe a little
earlier, five years ago.
He's been a supporter of thechannel and has a unique, I
(00:23):
think, sensitivity beyond thetechnology space and experience
way beyond that.
So, Bob, I saw, I think I gotan email from you about a month
ago inviting me to a new webinaryou had, and the title really
hooked me.
It really dealt with kind ofwhat we're all experiencing
(00:45):
right now.
Give us the background and letus know what compelled you to
come up with this new content.
Bob Tipton (00:53):
Yeah, thanks, Joe.
It's good to be with you again.
We have known each other a lotlonger than I think either one
of us want to admit, but I knowI had certainly a lot less gray
hair back then.
So yeah, the title of thewebinar is Navigating Times of
Radical Change.
And for whatever reason, itseems to be that my life is just
filled with opportunities tonavigate times of radical
(01:14):
change, go all the way back tobeing the middle child in a
dysfunctional family.
That's kind of how I got innavigating all this.
And then through the years as aprofessional, There's been a
whole lot of things that havehappened, a lot of things in my
personal life.
As I've gotten older, I'vegotten, I think, a little bit
more patient, a little bit moreobservant.
(01:35):
I've developed a better set ofskills.
What I'm seeing right now isjust there's such a degree of
suffering that's happening withpeople.
They're so reactive in theworld right now to whatever it
is.
Some people get just absolutelyaddicted to following every
single shred of informationabout some particular thing.
(01:56):
And they can have theiremotions swing wildly from one
day to the next, depending uponwhat the latest thing that they
just heard.
You know, from a biologicalperspective, if we live our
lives adrenalized, first of all,our lives are shorter.
They're a whole lot less fun.
And we're not given much beyondthe fight, fight or freeze
(02:17):
options that adrenaline providesfor us, which isn't really
great for making good executivetype decisions.
If you're spending all yourtime worrying and being
activated by things.
So I decided, because I've beenlooking around and I've been
dealing with a lot of things, wetalk about some of that if it
comes up, but I've been dealingwith a lot of things myself over
(02:38):
the last year.
I just decided, let's get sometools out there to help people
be able to navigate things moreeffectively.
It doesn't necessarily makethings easier, but It doesn't
make things go away, but the waythat we approach our response
and activities to what'shappening, we're in control of
that.
Joe Miller (02:59):
Yeah, I think as we get into this content more and
discuss it and just let everyoneknow, I will put links in the
show notes so that you can jumpon the webinar, which is a
complete unpacking of thesetools that Bob has provided.
What we're going to do is havea series of several episodes
(03:21):
where we'll take maybe one ortwo primary principles, tools,
and Bob will unpack it for us,and we'll just interact.
But what comes to mind to me,Bob, you and I, before the call,
we did a little preliminary andtalked about kind of the echo
chambers of all the information.
And by the way, this is not...
(03:42):
As you stressed with me, thisis...
It doesn't matter what side ofthe political spectrum you're on
or whatever spectrum you're on.
It's how to evaluate all thismassive amount of input.
We get more and more of it.
It's accelerating informationand what's real, what's
nonsense.
(04:02):
How do we get out of just beingoverwhelmed by the information
that's hitting us and evaluateit?
So I think You know, Icompletely resonate with that.
Sometimes last week, I took alittle personal retreat because
I just had to step back and dosome planning ahead.
(04:24):
But I realized how addictedI've become, even though I'm
aware that it's easy to becomeaddicted to these devices,
right?
These tablets and phones andthe constant barrage of
messaging.
And we barely have time to evenengage our prefrontal cortex in
evaluating them.
So really resonate with that.
(04:46):
Yeah, take us through some ofthis, Bob.
Bob Tipton (04:48):
Yeah, so the term you use, echo chamber, really
disempowering.
It's also very seductive.
You know, one of the thingsyears ago in my career, I found
out myself running a marketingorganization, which is not my
formal training, but it was avery sophisticated company.
And I don't need to hear thewhole story, but I wound up
running a group that wasresponsible for influencing the
(05:11):
way that people thought aboutthings, the way that they would
buy things, their habits.
And I learned the inside scoopabout how they actually do that.
And it was terrifying, to behonest with you, because it
preys on our fears.
It preys on things that we aresusceptible to.
And about 20% of the populationis highly influenceable, as I
(05:32):
discovered working with themback then.
So they're the ones you goafter first.
You try to get them to dothings and then create momentum
around that.
And the echo chamber issomething that's done
intentionally.
It's important to realize thatit's not something that happens
by accident.
It is something that isscripted.
(05:53):
And there are rules and goalsand measures and tools that are
being applied, whatever it mightbe.
So, you know, we all feel likewe're a victim of algorithms on
our devices.
We are if we let ourselves be.
And part of the process ofgetting out of the echo chamber
is acknowledging the fact thatyou're in one.
So without that, you just fallprey to it.
(06:15):
You find yourself receivingcontent that reinforces the
messages that they want you topay attention to.
Go all the way back to probably20 years ago, the movie
Minority Report.
Precogs.
Oh, yeah, the precogs.
It's like we have the pre-crimedivision, and it's this whole
idea about predicting things.
(06:35):
Well, that's the basis of thestory.
But if you remember walkingalong, it had this recognition
capability where all the contentwas being customized and
tailored as we went from placeto place to place.
And you actually had to changeyour retinas to be able to get
the messages to have somethingelse.
So that's a pretty extremeexample of changing the way you
(06:56):
look at things.
One of the perspectives that Ioffer in this idea is stand
back, even for 10 minutes, andjust ask yourself, what do you
continually see?
What messages are continuing toshow up?
And what behaviors have youembodied in order for that to be
the case?
(07:16):
So for me, I like to confusethe algorithm and I do things
that are unpredictable andconfusing.
So I will look at things that Ihave absolutely no interest in.
I will look at both sides ofwhatever the question is pretty
deeply.
I will examine a variety ofdifferent viewpoints and then
let the algorithm try to figureout who the heck this Bob Tipton
(07:37):
guy is.
Joe Miller (07:38):
What do I serve him next?
Bob Tipton (07:40):
Yeah, it's like, I don't know who this person is,
but they don't fit our profile.
Cool.
Also, one of the other thingsthat I found, I read a book
years ago called Stopping, EvenWhen You Have to Keep Going.
And it's this idea of takingsome time in between things to
be able to reset, refresh, togive yourself space, actual
(08:00):
energy to do something.
I have a training now.
It's called why energymanagement is a new time
management.
It's this whole idea of itdoesn't matter how much time we
apply to something.
It's the quality of the energythat we bring.
So that book was talking aboutscheduling 50-minute meetings
instead of 60-minute meetings,turning the radio off in your
car.
So, Joe, it's this idea ofseparating intentionally from
(08:25):
the barrage.
Give yourself room.
Get out of it for a bit.
Stand back and look.
And if you still want to engagein social media, because it's
great.
In some ways, it's fantastic.
But don't be predictable.
So jam it up
Joe Miller (08:41):
by not being predictable.
I guess, and then maybe one ofthe underlying things here to
discuss is that first you needto have awareness of what's
going on here.
It's that old analogy of beinga fish in the ocean and being
unaware that you're swimming inan ocean.
Bob Tipton (08:58):
Yes.
Joe Miller (08:59):
So that's part of it.
I think maybe that's part ofwhat you're trying to accomplish
with the webinar as well asgive people tools.
You have to start with thatawareness, right?
Bob Tipton (09:08):
Yeah, well, there's three levels of awareness when
you talk about what you'redescribing, Joe.
And training helps, experiencehelps, intentionality helps.
But the first level ofawareness is after the fact.
So I just did what I always do.
It's like, darn, I just didwhat I always did.
I just wasted 90 minutes stuckon looking at cat videos.
(09:28):
That's first level ofawareness.
Second level of awareness isyou're in the middle of doing
what you normally do.
And the realization pops intoyour head to say that I'm
suffering due to somecatastrophe.
I'm being activated by amessage that I'm receiving.
Second level awareness isgreat.
You choose to do something,okay, if you don't, but you
(09:50):
still made a choice in themiddle of it.
The third level of awareness isyou prepare yourself in
advance.
So before you sit down with, Idon't know, Facebook or
Instagram or whatever yourfavorite social media channel
is, or before you start lookingat news, and I'm not even sure
how to define that term anymore.
When you're looking atsomething, prepare yourself in
(10:10):
advance.
I choose not to be activated bythe message I'm receiving.
That takes some time.
It takes some intentionality.
So when we think aboutnavigating times of radical
change, the first thing to dois, are you awake?
And what I mean by that is, areyou aware to what's happening?
Your example of you're swimminginside of an ocean.
(10:30):
As a fish, you don't feel thewater, but that's where you are.
So A, Are you aware of what'shappening to you?
And without some form ofintentionality, we just stay in
the echo chamber.
It just continues to reinforce.
The other thing, Joe, is thisconditioning or bias.
This idea, I don't know, I goall the way back to driver's ed,
(10:53):
and that was a long time ago,but I go back to driver's ed and
My driver's ed teacher said,you know, we naturally drive in
the direction that we're lookingin.
And that's what we do whenwe're driving a car.
We have our hands on a steeringwheel.
It's a great metaphor.
Well, there was a time when Iwas in Scotland driving on the
other side of the road for thefirst time.
And we're on a small road, alittle B road in the middle of
(11:17):
no place.
A car got very close to me.
I got very close to their car.
Well, their instinct was toturn the wheel to the left to
get off the road.
My instinct was to turn thewheel to the right.
And what happened was we almosthit each other.
I went the direction theydidn't expect me to go in, and
they went in the direction Ididn't expect them to go in.
(11:38):
But I was conditioned to turnthat way.
So this idea of, again, withoutsome form of intentionality, we
find ourselves.
So here's, I have a series offive questions.
Maybe we can dig into the firstone here.
When we find ourselvesnavigating times of radical
change, this awareness, havethis pop into your head when
(11:58):
you're looking at something.
Is it real?
It seems like a really obviousquestion, except that how many
things that are happening rightnow in the world that are just
pure theater?
They're no t real.
Joe Miller (12:10):
Mm-hmm.
Bob Tipton (12:11):
It's somebody somewhere putting a message out
there that's trying to get aresponse.
And if it doesn't, if it's notreal, it isn't real.
So examples of that would be, Idon't know.
Again, this is not political.
You pick whatever political adyou ever want to see.
Anyone.
I don't care which one it is.
It's going to suck no matterwho gets elected.
That's the basis of politicaladvertising.
(12:33):
It's going to be horriblewhoever gets elected.
Is that true?
Joe Miller (12:37):
Back to your earlier comment.
Those things are targeted toget a response.
I call it the lizard brainresponse, right?
And to get all those hormonesflowing, to get that kind of
intense response.
Yes.
Bob Tipton (12:55):
Yeah, so they hook you with something.
They'll give you a headline orthey'll give you a soundbite.
And if you're in your echochamber and you're not aware of
what's happening, you're gettingthe fish swimming in the water,
you'll react to it.
And that's what they'recounting on.
is for you to react to it.
So one of the most importantthings in times of radical
change, so let's use an exampleof, I don't know, massive
(13:18):
organizational shift.
There's something that'spotentially going to come and
somebody talks about it as if ithas happened or it's going to
happen.
Is it real?
It hasn't happened yet.
It may never happen.
And as a result, all the timeand energy we spend worrying
about it is wasted creativity.
So I call that taken to anextreme.
(13:39):
We do that type of thing.
It's called suffering inadvance, Joe.
We suffer in advance.
We give away our power.
We give away our agency and allof our ability to advocate for
ourselves, and we give it tosome other source.
And at that point, we arequote-unquote powerless to the
echo chamber.
Taken to an extreme, beyond thesuffering in advance, we can
(14:01):
call it premeditated bitterness.
We're already pissed off aboutsomething that hasn't even
Joe Miller (14:06):
happened yet.
Just...
Maybe think of this, Bob, let'ssee what you think of this, or
maybe for this, that researchhas been done that shows that
just processing in our mindswhat we think is happening
produces all the same emotiveresponses, all the same
chemicals, whether it's actuallyhappened or not.
I know there's just beenresearch like that.
Bob Tipton (14:28):
Big time.
That's what elite athletes use.
It's this idea ofvirtualization.
Right.
Or people that believe in, Idon't know, manifestation.
It's this idea of if you createit in your mind, your mind
can't tell the differencebetween the truth and a story
that's repeated regularly.
Right.
Joe Miller (14:48):
Well, we know that.
And we should be suspiciouswhen we hear the same things
over and over again, because,you know, I think about the, I
think I mentioned this to youbefore this call, it reminded me
of the Star Wars scene withObi-Wan Kenobi saying, These are
not the droids you're lookingfor, that mind control technique
that a Jedi could do that wethink, oh, that's kind of
(15:10):
interesting.
But, you know, some of thatactually happens.
And as it's conditioning, it'simplanting those thoughts and
beliefs are built upon that overtime.
And so then it becomes theframework.
We talk about biases, but itbecomes the paradigms or the
framework that we see allincoming data from.
evaluate against and then wetend to amplify we tend to look
(15:34):
for things that correlate oragree with what those rules of
how we're looking at the worldand it built
Bob Tipton (15:44):
yeah conversely we just simply eliminate anything
that doesn't the same
Joe Miller (15:48):
thing yep and actually you know that paradigm
research uh Kuhn, I think, wrotea book about scientists in the
laboratory.
They had a hypothesis they werelooking to prove, and they got
dated, did not agree with theirparadigm, and it got discarded.
(16:09):
Almost at a subconscious, Ithink at a subconscious level.
It wasn't like, oh, thisdoesn't agree.
It doesn't fit what I want.
I'm going to throw it out.
It's like, it just doesn't evenappear, which seems a little
bit spooky.
But it happens.
Bob Tipton (16:26):
It can be deadly.
Joe Miller (16:27):
It can be really deadly, right?
The stakes can be really high.
Bob Tipton (16:32):
Yes.
I found myself a few years agoinvited to speak at the CIA
headquarters of all places.
And I was there to talk aboutbias.
And the people I was talking towere the analysts that create
the president's briefing on aday-to-day basis.
And in their world, bias isdeadly.
If you choose to rule insomething because of
(16:54):
conditioning or rule somethingout because of conditioning, it
can turn out to be very bad forsomeone somewhere.
So this idea, they were datascientists, and how do you keep
bias out of data?
So a lot of it is unconscious.
A lot of it has to do withyears and years and years of
conditioning.
When you see something, youreact to it.
(17:15):
So this is all in the categoryof, is it Even real.
Joe Miller (17:20):
Real.
Bob Tipton (17:20):
So, so much of what's happened in the last
several years, we can just goback to five or six years in our
world, there have been so manythings that have been put
forward as if they are true andthey wind up not to be upon
further examination.
Or they're nuanced in terms ofwhat truth is.
I worry about statistics.
This is another area that I amconcerned about with how people
(17:43):
present data.
I will present statistics thatshow my perspective in the most
positive light.
I will limit the window thatthe data is actually available
in, in order to make my point.
And then, I don't know ifyou've seen it though, all the
information that correlation isnot causation or causation is
not correlation.
Yeah.
Silly charts with the numberof, you know, fatal spider bites
(18:06):
compared to the number of BigMacs consumed in Northern
California.
Oh yeah.
I'm making it up.
Joe Miller (18:13):
Well, it, It could be done.
There was a textbook in collegecalled How to Lie with
Statistics, which kind ofcomplements what you're saying.
How things are presented, howthings are framed.
And if you don't reallyunderstand data analysis and
(18:33):
statistics, it's even easierto...
being manipulated.
I'll just use that harsh word,but that's what it is.
And this is one of the things,you know, having spent three
plus decades in thepharmaceutical industry, there's
a lot of scrutiny on clinicaltrials to make sure that
(18:59):
products that are developed aresafe and actually work, have
efficacy.
But there are things that arecommon misperceptions like A
doctor may say to you, I may getmyself in trouble for this, but
they say, oh, you need to be ona statin.
And we'll quote percentage ofrisk reduction.
And actually, the percentagethat is being quoted is
(19:20):
relative, not real risk oractual risk reduction.
So you get an amplified senseof benefit because that's the
way the study presented thedata.
You know, clinicians that aredeep into a particular
therapeutic area, theyunderstand this.
Things get repeated without theneeded context.
And maybe context is animportant piece here too.
Bob Tipton (19:43):
Well, yeah.
And one of the most importantcontexts for all this kind of
gets into the second questionabout navigating times of
radical change is, does itbelong to me?
You know, maybe it's real, butI have no role to play in it.
I have no, it's not going toimpact me in any way, shape or
form.
It, not my backpack to pick upand carry around.
(20:03):
And that's another one of thethings that happens in these
forms of manipulation, if youwant to say it, is it creates
the false sense that we'resomehow included or we're
somehow responsible or ourparticipation is necessary.
It's amazing how many peopleare so willing to pick up
something that doesn't evenbelong to them.
(20:24):
So when we're consuming news orwe're consuming messages
associated with things, Yeah,maybe we discern through
whatever means we use to say,yeah, this is something that is
real or likely to occur.
But I have no role personallyin dealing with any of it.
Joe Miller (20:40):
Yeah.
Well, so you have no role.
You have no ability.
So kind of differentiate thosethings.
It's not in your circle ofconcern or it's not in a place
where you could utilize anypersonal agency to have an
impact.
Unpack that.
Bob Tipton (21:00):
Correct.
Yeah, so the difference betweenthe two is important.
Well, I worry about a lot ofthings personally.
I've got a lot of concernsabout what happened to certain
populations.
And I'm interested in what'shappening to certain
populations.
That doesn't mean every singlecircumstance that I run across,
I should feel a sense ofpersonal obligation to do
(21:20):
something about.
That's just not possible.
Instead, I can maintain mysense of empathy and compassion
and interest, circle of concern,as you said, but my circle of
action is much smaller.
So what I'm suggesting that wedo, if it belongs to us, then
we're able to do something aboutit.
And that kind of leads to thethird question.
(21:43):
The two are highly correlated.
So if it's something that is aradical change, it's real, and I
have some actions that is minethat i choose to take or or need
to take the next question hasto do with what do i do now
especially when it's somethingof a radical change nature it's
(22:04):
immediate it's significant youhave something that's necessary
for you to do and this is whereone of my favorite books of all
time it's called deep survivalit was written by a guy named
lawrence gonzalez who I don'tremember which Chicago paper he
wrote for, but he was ajournalist and he researched
accidents, boating accidents,plane crashes, people being
(22:26):
stranded on desert islands, allthose kinds of situations that
truly are life and death.
The subtitle of his book is WhoLives, Who Dies, and Why?
And what his research showed,and I encourage you to read the
book because I'm giving you theCliff Notes version here, but
his research showed a couple ofmaybe surprising things.
One, those that made it weren'tnecessarily of any particular
(22:50):
age.
So being experienced didn'treally matter.
And secondly, your trainingwhen it comes to survival was
helpful, but it wasn't the mostimportant thing that correlated
to whether you would make it ornot.
The most important thing thatcorrelated to whether you made
it, there's actually two partsto it.
I honestly don't remember nowwhich was first and which one
(23:11):
second.
I just remember there's two ofthem.
One was you adapted immediatelyto your new circumstances.
So let's say you lost your job.
Well, I tell you what you dowhen you lose your job is you
adapt to your new circumstances.
There are things that have tobe taken care of immediately.
Things like health care andunemployment, if that's an
(23:32):
option, or job search, whateverit might be.
It's every minute you spendwishing the circumstance was
different is a minute lost whenit comes to being able to be
adapting to your currentreality.
So this idea of being in anavalanche, let's say, in the
mountains, the first thing youneed is air.
Everything else comes second tothat.
(23:56):
So you find things to help yoube able to survive.
I need food, I need shelter, Ineed water.
I need to be able to physicallybe safe.
Well, the same thing's true inthe world of some radical
change.
In fact, and then the secondthing that correlated in his
book, in his research, whetherwe made it or not, is the belief
that you're going to make it.
(24:16):
So this idea of havingconfidence or a positive
attitude about it or belief inyourself.
So this idea of adaptingquickly, in fact, one of the
other surprising things aboutthe book is People that were
rescued, many of them hadadapted so fully to their new
circumstances, the rescue wasseen as it was disruptive.
(24:36):
So those that made it for weeksor months in a very difficult
circumstance, when they wererescued, it was like it was
disruptive.
They weren't ready to go backto their other life because
they'd have adapted so fully.
So anyway, there's this list ofthings, this stuff that's
necessary to do now, capital N.
(24:57):
And what I find when people arein the midst of some radical
change is there's a whole lot oflooking over the next hill, to
use the metaphor, if you getlost in the woods.
You just keep walking and youhope that someone's going to
come and rescue you.
Well, maybe they will.
But in the meantime, there arethings that need to be done.
Joe Miller (25:20):
Yeah, I think I could be wrong, but to me, it
might go back to our discussionabout the flight or fight
response and sense of panic oranxiety takes over so that
people stop thinking.
I envision an impending planecrash and the panic, right?
(25:41):
And trying to instill sometraining up front you know, at
pre-flag training, things weshould do, you know, in the
event of an emergency like that,I think is intended to get us
out of that and getting in to dothe next right thing in terms
(26:01):
of our safety and surviving.
So I resonate with that.
And as I think about it andthink about just the state of
the affairs where we jumped offon this discussion, a lot of
people I know seem to be in thisreally heavy angst about the
situation, talking about it alot from their perspectives.
(26:21):
It doesn't matter what side ofthe aisle they are, but not
really doing much.
You know what I'm saying?
Because maybe there's nothingthey can really do.
So they know it's important.
All their juices are up andthey're just in a high state of
(26:42):
anxiety.
And so having practical tools,I think, is really useful.
So, yeah, so this is great.
Bob Tipton (26:52):
Yeah, I mean, back to your aircraft, airplane crash
example.
That's one of the primary areaswhere flight attendants are
trained.
They're trained that there's 90seconds to get everyone out of
a plane.
So it's not, do I care aboutyou as an individual?
Am I worried about what you'retrying to take with you?
There's a whole list of thingsthat they're trained to just
(27:13):
simply insist upon and it isyou're right it's to break
through that adrenalized stateof panic and fear so that we're
able to survive the plane crashwe need to get out of the plane
and that's an example of whati'm talking about here there's a
certain short period of timewhere we need to be able to do
something and that's being awareof where we are being aware of
(27:37):
our circumstances and being ableto quell the panic and the fear
enough that we're able to makesome immediately good choices.
And then once that's done, thenthere's questions four and five
in this idea of what's next.
So yes, it's real.
Yes, I have a role to play init.
And again, as you're talkingabout people just simply being
in a state of fear all the time,take a deep breath.
(28:00):
Let's just use that.
Sit quietly with your dog oryour cat.
Take a walk.
Get yourself out of the cyclingof the energy through some form
of intentionality.
That'll be helpful.
We'll just put that out there.
Sometimes a deep breath isincredibly helpful.
So after we've done what'snecessary immediately, so I
(28:22):
built a lean-to, I found somefirewood, something, whatever is
necessary, then you startplanning.
And this is where you have ashort-term plan.
And the short-term planconsists of a very short runway.
What do I need to do in thenext hour?
What do I need to do in thenext day?
What is necessary for me ableto navigate what's happening?
(28:46):
So I'll give you an examplefrom my personal life.
My wife passed away about 13months ago.
We were married 45 years, Joe.
We were in a relationship for50 years.
She was my person.
I was her person.
It was tragic.
It was immediate.
It was completely unexpected.
And there's a lot ofadrenalization.
There was a lot of sitting andwondering and worrying, but not
(29:10):
for long.
There were things I needed totake care of, like how to make
decisions about the right thingto do with her life support.
I needed to make decisionsabout what to do when it came to
next steps for her body and etcetera.
There's a short-term plan forAnd if we're by ourselves,
that's one thing.
But if we have people around usto be able to support us in
(29:32):
this planning exercise, I'lltell you, one of the things I've
learned over and over and overin my life is that people are
good.
People care.
They can be clumsy.
They can be awkward.
They cannot know the rightthing to say or how to say it.
Awesome.
But they care and they want todo something.
(29:53):
So when we find ourselves inthis circumstance and someone's
offering assistance, say yes.
None of this, well, no, I'mokay.
I'll fight my way through it.
It's like I found myself, Joe,when people said, I'm going to
do this for you.
It's like, please, thank you.
(30:13):
The worst question is, what canI do for you?
I have no freaking idea.
Right.
Joe Miller (30:21):
Again, you're in the middle of that swamp of tragedy
and crisis.
And your reflective thought is,I should know what to do
because I've built a career anda life out of personal agency.
I've been successful at that asa leader.
(30:42):
Now I've just been sideswipedby this thing.
It can be hard to accept help.
So there's real wisdom inknowing to do that.
when you need it, and havingthe awareness to recognize your
own state and why you need it.
Bob Tipton (31:03):
Most definitely.
It requires a level of, well,I'll just use a physics example,
reciprocal energy.
Giving energy and receivingenergy is the same energy.
I need to receive your energybecause you need to give your
energy.
If I don't allow you to giveyour energy, I'm stunting your
(31:23):
ability to do something.
So I can get a lot more intothat subject than we have time
for today.
The idea, people are good, Joe.
People want to help.
They may not know what to do orthey may not know what to say,
but they are there.
Part of our realization, again,getting out of this
(31:47):
conditioning, you know,especially men of a certain age,
all right, I'll just categorizeus.
Men of a certain age, we wereraised to be able to have
answers to whatever.
I found I was very ill-equippedand there were people in my
life that had wisdom andexperience and knowledge and
empathy.
And if I disallowed theirability to help me make a plan
(32:07):
in a time of a radical change,I'd still be navigating it.
So that's question four.
What's my plan?
So it's real.
I have a role in it.
I have taken care of myimmediate things.
What do I have to do now?
Now what's my plan?
So that depends on thecircumstance, obviously, but
(32:28):
getting some concrete actions inplace is a good thing.
So that kind of leads us up toquestion number five in this
whole process.
Question number five is how doI get started?
You can have a great plan andstill be paralyzed.
You can still be worried abouthow it might appear.
You can worry about it beinglooking clumsy or somehow being
judged or ridiculed for what youdo.
(32:49):
The list of what do I do firstor what do I do now sometimes is
predicated by what's in yourplan.
But one of the most importantthings to do, to do first,
imagine someone who just dug abig hole and they're holding
onto the shovel.
And they're looking aroundsaying, what should I do first?
It's like, if you find yourselfin a hole, stop digging it.
It seems really obvious to saythat.
(33:11):
But this idea of gettingyourself out of the
self-defeating, the conditionedresponses, sometimes that's the
very first thing to do is to trysomething you normally have
not.
Joe Miller (33:24):
That's interesting.
I'm going to get back toaccepting help from others.
And I'm sure you've You've gotsomething in this space.
But again, this idea ofawareness and knowing that
you're in, you're diggingyourself in a hole.
Having someone close to youthat you trust to sort of help
you see a broader perspective ofthe situation you're in, that
(33:47):
you trust their perspective, canbe really helpful here.
Bob Tipton (33:53):
Well, you're absolutely right.
And the thing I worry aboutsometimes, I'll just use another
personal example.
A week or two after Debbiepassed away, I was getting
something from one of herfriends' house who also lost her
spouse and had been remarriedfor a while.
And one of the first things shetold me was, Bob, you're never
going to be the same.
And I thought, you know, someabstract sort of way I kind of
(34:17):
knew that, but it was such anill-timed message.
Sometimes it's important, Joe,to know that Even people that
you care about that might havesomething important to say to
you, they can be speaking fromtheir own conditioning, from
their own patterns, from theirown belief system or where they
are in their own journey.
So this idea of curating isprobably the word that I would
(34:43):
describe.
Curating the sources ofinformation, comfort, support,
whatever it might be, as much asyou're able to.
Be clear about who and whereand why you're receiving
information.
This was completely out of leftfield.
It took me completely bysurprise and it really wasn't
(35:05):
helpful.
So rather than ruminating on itand thinking, oh my gosh, I'm
never going to be the same andlife sucks and it's always going
to suck.
It's like, I have to set thataside.
So what I did is I walked awayas I just simply put that in a
box to be open later.
So maybe that's the firstcourse of action.
is to take something and put itin the box to be open later or
(35:25):
never.
Now I understand what she wassaying.
I get it.
Joe Miller (35:28):
Yeah.
Wow.
Well, thanks for sharing that.
Of course, I've known it, butbeing that transparent, this is
real world stuff.
I'm just curious, these steps,these different levels that
you've shared, is there examplesor a way you could describe
them?
Kind of just...
(35:48):
More generally, maybe not soacute of the situation you've
gone through, but let's sayyou're a leader in an
organization and your team thatyou're responsible for is in a
lot of turmoil because ofmessaging either internally to
the company, whatever the casemay be, or externally in the
world, or it's, you know, wehave tariffs, we have this, we
(36:10):
have that, and they're trying tonavigate all this and they're
struggling.
How could some of these thingsbe applied?
in sort of that real world typesituation.
Bob Tipton (36:19):
Yeah, so when we translate this into leadership,
there's two dimensions to thatthat's important, Joe.
You know, I've been through alot of organizational upheaval.
I've been through mergers,acquisitions.
I've been laid off twicepersonally.
I was in a circumstance where Ilaid off lots and lots of other
people.
There's a real world componentto this for sure.
And leaders have a specialresponsibility when it comes to
(36:42):
navigating times of radicalchange.
I think first, it's a matter ofsaying, do I want to be part of
this radical change personallyor not?
That is the first question.
So another example from mylife, I was offered a really
great job when I was very young.
It meant moving to anothercity.
And all I had to do was lieabout a merger and acquisition
(37:03):
issue that was about to face mystaff.
That's all I had to do, whichis to train myself.
I said, no, this is not for me.
So there's an opt out.
option as well, I think isimportant for people to
navigate.
The second, I guess that's thefirst thing.
And then there's two otherthings.
The two other things are knowthat you're going to be going
(37:26):
through this personally asyou're leading people through it
themselves.
There's a level of authenticitythat people can see right
through if you're just being theApollo cheerleader, you know,
just stiff upper lip to use tomy British upbringing.
This idea that we just need tomarshal our energy and we'll get
through it and so on.
You're probably denying yourown process and you're not
(37:49):
helping other peopleauthentically process through
things themselves either.
So first, you need to realizethat you're in the midst of it
yourself.
If there are significant issuesthat are happening and how to
be able to not separatecompletely, but there's a level
of compartmentalization that'simportant and authenticity as a
leader that's necessary.
So here's a specific example,Joe, when you're talking to your
(38:13):
staff about something.
Yeah, I'm not sure.
I don't know how this willaffect me personally.
I'm concerned about some thingstoo.
I get it.
And what I do have controlover, Joe, at this point as a
leader and you do as staff, youhave control over how you feel
about all of this.
I have control about how I feelabout this.
So what I'm going to do at thispoint is be transparent as much
(38:37):
as possible.
I'll tell you what I can tellyou.
I'll talk about what I can talkabout.
And I'll tell you what I can'ttalk about.
And you're going to need totrust me about that.
Joe Miller (38:45):
I tell you what I can do and what I can't do.
Bob Tipton (38:49):
Yes.
What do I have control over?
I have control over myattitude.
Right.
You know, when people areafraid of job loss, oh my gosh,
the worst thing to do is gohide.
Because the people that aregood at discovering who should
go, that's who you look forfirst, the people that are
hiding.
The best thing to do if you'reafraid of job loss, and this
(39:12):
comes to the other side ofthings, make yourself
indispensable.
Continue focusing on greatwork.
Ladies and gentlemen, in mydepartment that I'm leading
here, no, we're not in controlof all this other stuff that's
happening.
But we're still in control ofdoing great work.
So I'm going to go downswinging if I go down.
I'm going to go down doinggreat things to support the
organization.
Or I'm going to opt out.
(39:32):
It's not this worry andwringing my hands and gnashing
my teeth and accelerating allthe activation of people's
adrenaline and the fight,flight, or freeze.
I'm not going to be part ofthat as a leader.
Either I'm in or I'm not in.
And for leaders, that can be areally hard choice because we're
suffering with fear and anxietyand the unknown because we're
(39:54):
human.
And here's one of the weirdthings that happens in
leadership.
It's happened over and over andover again.
When times are tough, And bythe way, this is a natural
process.
That's something I wanted toshare today also.
Nature has a regular process oforder, disorder, reorder.
It happens every year withdeciduous trees when they lose
(40:17):
their leaves.
And guess what?
The tree is not worrying aboutwhether it's going to lose its
leaves.
It's not worrying during thewinter whether it's going to
come back or not.
And it's not worrying when theleaves start showing up again
that they're going to eventuallyfall off.
It's just a natural process.
Or the caterpillar who goesfrom a caterpillar into a cocoon
and then turns into a moth or abutterfly.
(40:39):
There's no worry.
The in-between state for acaterpillar before it becomes a
butterfly, it doesn't look likeeither one.
Great example.
Completely liquefied.
It's a little bit like if youwalked into the middle of an
operating room during surgery,you think murder happened.
Yeah.
It doesn't look like it did andit doesn't look like it will.
(41:02):
It's this in-between state.
So order, disorder, reorder isnatural.
The problem is that we don'tallow ourselves to see that.
We're probably the only specieson this planet that actually
worries about it.
Dogs don't worry about it.
They just miss you, and thenyou come home, and then they're
excited.
So this idea of leaders beingable to help staff recognize
(41:27):
that disorder is sometimes partof the natural process.
And holding on to things theway they were, that's not
natural.
You know, we can get into realphilosophical conversation at
some point about this idea ofimpermanence, but nothing's
designed to last.
Joe Miller (41:46):
As you were talking about that situation, that
leadership situation, since I ama coach, I wanted to say an
empathetic leader should becoaching their staff on how to
look at things.
and clarifying what's real andwhat's not real, being
transparent about theircapabilities to help them
(42:06):
through the process, what theirlimitations are.
I've often coached people whohave been interested in
furthering their career,typically technology leaders,
but others as well.
And one of the common thingsthat happens is they get into a
state of angst because theydon't feel like they're moving
(42:27):
forward.
They feel like they can't doanything about it.
And sometimes, whether it'stheir fault or external factors,
they're in a situation wheresuccess probably, there's not a
lot upside for them there.
Yet, they still feel like thereshould be.
And You can offer suggestionson how you can do the things
(42:51):
that help you stand out, all thetypical things, manage your
relationship with your boss.
But underlying all of it, theyare disempowered in a state of
angst and almost panic, and theydon't know what to do.
And I have actually said topeople before, you have a
choice.
You can stay and change yourmindset, or you can leave, or
(43:13):
you can work.
Maybe there's a third choice,or you can change your behaviors
to stand out, but you may stillend up feeling the same way.
That's reality.
So there's the world you want,and then there's the world that
really is.
And so, yeah, awareness first,but I just thought as you were
going through that and unpackingthat situation with your
(43:36):
material that coaching peoplethrough these thought processes
could be extremely helpful.
A coaching program, Bob.
You probably already have itdesigned.
Bob Tipton (43:45):
Yeah, maybe this goes back to my Quaker
background.
I don't know.
My family goes way back to theQuakers.
And one of the things they haveis a clearness committee.
And a clearness committee isnot a place to go get advice.
You don't go there to be toldanything.
What you do is you go there andthey ask you a lot of
questions.
And it's the idea for you to beable to get clear about the
(44:07):
direction that you're in andwhy.
So back to what you're saying,Joe.
We always have a choice, evenif it's down to how I feel about
it.
Maybe I have to stay in thecircumstance for a period of
time, but I can decide how Ifeel about that.
No one is in control of myfeelings except me.
And that's, again, getting outof the echo chamber when people
(44:29):
are trying to make you feel acertain way.
But opt out, that's a powerfulthing when people are in the
midst of something that's very,very challenging to deal with.
This, again, is a pretty deepphilosophical question.
topic, but there's this idea ofopting out is not failing.
Joe Miller (44:46):
Stop digging.
I can argue that it's probablythe best choice in certain
circumstances, like the exampleyou gave, but many others.
Bob Tipton (44:58):
Often, it's the best choice when you're being asked
to do something that is immoralor unethical or illegal,
something that violates yourpersonal set of values.
Whenever you do that, You don'tget it back.
What happens when you cross theline is you betray a little bit
of yourself.
So when I'm coaching people,Joe, that's the question I ask
(45:22):
them.
Are you betraying yourself insome form or fashion by
remaining in the circumstancesyou're in or potentially staying
in the same thought processthat you're staying in?
And if the answer to that isyes, it's like, that's a pretty
clear indication to me thatopting out is a good idea.
Alternatively, maybe you'remaking it all up.
(45:42):
The circumstance isn't evenreal and it doesn't belong to
you.
And you're just, you're puttingall this bias and all this
conditioning on top of somebodythat doesn't deserve it.
I find that a lot in mergersand acquisition work and
reorganizations is people have afeeling in general that that
radical type of change is justgoing to be bad.
comes a self-fulfillingprophecy.
(46:05):
So it's like somebody reachedout to me.
They're applying for a job in aplace where I have some
relationships and someknowledge.
I gave them a tip.
Take a look at thisorganization's values and
connect your resume and yourinterview to their values.
It'll make a big difference foryou.
(46:26):
It's like, well, that's a goodidea.
Pretty basic, actually.
Yeah.
It's something that maybe weshould do every day when we show
up at work is to say, how can Ihelp push the mission of the
organization forward?
So all that's kind of in thecategory, Joe, of what to do as
a leader.
There's a lot more.
You know, the third part of mywebinar gets into some really
(46:48):
specific ideas associated withthat.
And I know we've got moresessions together.
So I'm going to save some ofthe feel for them.
But that's kind of what.
Joe Miller (46:57):
You've held that webinar a couple times so far.
Bob Tipton (47:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's relatively new.
Yeah.
Joe Miller (47:04):
And do you open up for questions at the back end of
it?
I'm just kind of curious of thetype of questions that have
come up, if you can recall.
Bob Tipton (47:13):
Well, one of the questions is, so I work in an
organization where our commontheme is, well, that's just the
way we do things around here.
That's just the way it is.
I'm going to wait this out theway I've waited everything else
out.
It's in this idea of learnedhelplessness is the category I
put that into.
And It's back to what's yourlevel of concern, your circle of
(47:33):
concern versus your circle ofaction.
You know, if you're in a highlevel of leadership inside of an
organization, maybe you canstart talking about
psychological safety and starttalking about empathy and being
able to have more effectiveleadership and more connection
to your values.
But if you're kind of a footsoldier inside the organization,
again, why are you continuingto stay?
(47:54):
The answer, again, it's alittle bit of a broken record.
The answer to that is, what areyou doing?
So you can steer from theinside of an organization.
You can decide that I'm goingto behave differently.
You may be ridiculed for it.
You may be reprimanded for it.
You may be retaliated against.
But you're doing what you cando.
Joe Miller (48:15):
Going back to sort of evolutionary biology, we've
touched on a little bit alreadywith the lizard brain and the
flight or fight response.
We also...
want to seek comfort.
And it's sort of the other sideof flight or flight or flight.
And I find that often peopledraw the circle of, you said
(48:39):
action, influence action, verytight, very small.
And so they amplify theirhelplessness in a situation
beyond what the reality is.
And rather than even take someinitial steps of personal
agency, They just sit and wallowin it.
Now, I'm saying all thesethings like it's never been done
(48:59):
by me.
I have done this.
Believe me.
Bob Tipton (49:03):
Sure.
Joe Miller (49:04):
That's how I recognize it so well.
But that's so common.
And even very highlycompensated leaders can get into
this sort of thought processand feel like, you know, I hear
a lot of whining, I want a seatat the table.
I want people to listen to whatI have to say.
You know, it's just like, okay,I get it.
I mean, there's some realitythat that might be a challenge.
(49:27):
But what good is this doing,you know?
And I've heard it said before,and for some reason, the writer,
it slips my mind right now.
But anyway, when these thingscome up, he has said before,
you're stalling, right?
Possibly.
Bob Tipton (49:44):
It's
Joe Miller (49:46):
like a defense mechanism or you're
rationalizing things.
to support the fact that youhaven't taken any action.
You're stalling.
I love that word, thatterminology, because in some
ways it's true.
It's like, you kind of knowthis already, but you don't want
to go there.
Bob Tipton (50:03):
Yeah, it's possible.
You know, there's certainpersonality types that like to
do more processing.
They like to be able to thinkabout things longer and they
don't make immediate decisions,but that's not everybody.
It's back to the third questionthat I have.
What do I need to do now?
Joe Miller (50:18):
Mm-hmm.
Bob Tipton (50:18):
And then into fourth, what's my plan?
But yeah, this idea of learnedhelplessness, it's like the
Geico alligator in thecommercial.
I can't reach the check in themiddle of the table because my
arms are too short.
It's an idea that I'm notworthy or it's not my
responsibility at some level ofdeflection.
You know, you can spend yearsin therapy and still not get
(50:39):
past that.
The idea of agency, as you'veused the word several times in
our conversation, is a word thatI don't think many people
really spend much time thinkingabout.
That is another thing thatleaders, I think, in today's
world, I think it's reallyimportant.
It may be necessary, it may bevital.
It's this idea of being able tohave people...
(51:02):
authentically feel that theirvoice matters.
You know, how many people inyour life, Joe, count them for
me.
How many people in your lifecan you ever remember saying,
looking at you in the eye andthey say, I believe in you?
I think my mother
Joe Miller (51:15):
used to say that occasionally, but not a lot.
I mean, definitely in theminority.
Bob Tipton (51:22):
Very small.
Very small.
So that's one of my intentions.
I have two granddaughters thatlive with me and every day
before they go to school orwhatever the day is, I said,
guess who believes in you?
And they say, that guy.
Ah,
Joe Miller (51:36):
I love it.
That guy.
Bob Tipton (51:38):
It's the whole idea of reminding people of their
worth and their value and theirpower and the contribution they
make.
not in an inauthentic way touse the double negative.
This is something that is true.
You need to feel it yourself.
Yeah, that's been a journey forme over the last year is to try
(52:01):
to figure out who the heck Iam.
Yeah.
Debbie's husband.
Well, guess what, Joe?
I have value.
Joe Miller (52:06):
I'm going to share a little bit of a story here
because thinking of Debbie inone of our podcast episodes
together, you were talking abouthow you were setting up your
own office.
Remember this story?
A
Bob Tipton (52:18):
great story.
Joe Miller (52:19):
Wow.
I mean, and how you had allyour accomplishments and all
your certificates and all yourawards and everything in your
office.
And you went up to talk toDebbie about something, and she
was an artist, right?
She was in her studio.
And when you went into heroffice, you saw a big
(52:39):
difference.
On her wall was the pictures ofthe family, right?
Am I remembering this right?
And then you immediately wentback down to your office and
tore this stuff down.
Bob Tipton (52:50):
Yeah, it was such a moment of clarity, such a moment
of openness about what wevalue.
Joe Miller (52:57):
So it was modeled by her.
Bob Tipton (53:00):
Oh my gosh.
For
Joe Miller (53:00):
you.
So I guess the point I'm tryingto make is, and I think you
were kind of underscoring this,the importance, not just for
leaders, but all humans, is toencourage one another to to see
the value in themselves bytruthfully speaking, when you
see that value in them.
Bob Tipton (53:18):
It's like yesterday, I was with a project team of
about 25 people that are workingon a large, complex capital
project down in Atlanta.
They took risks.
They showed strongpsychological safety.
They said things to each otherthat needed to be said.
They really did a nice job inthe workshop.
And at the end of the workshop,I just looked around and said,
(53:38):
I think you're freaking awesome.
congratulate yourselves for thehard work that you did and the
risks and the vulnerability youshowed, because that's not
normal.
What people tend to do in thesetypes of settings is they hold
back and they position and theyposture, they politic, they look
for an opening, and then theyrush in to try to get some
leverage.
And you didn't do any of that.
Instead, you decided, let'sfocus on what's right, not who's
(54:02):
right.
It was remarkable, Joe.
It was great.
Joe Miller (54:06):
Yeah, just a final thought here.
And I've been doing a lot ofstudy recently on spiritual
formation.
And the author of the book I'mreading, Dallas Willard, talks
about everyone is being formedall the time.
And it really correlates towhat we're saying about the
conditioning, right?
The question is, what's theinput, right?
Bob Tipton (54:26):
Right.
Joe Miller (54:27):
And so one thing that we all, everyone can do is
what you just touched on.
And that is speak truth andencourage each other and be part
of the positive conditioning.
It's got to be real.
It's got to be truthful.
Because if it isn't, you'd haveno credibility when you really
(54:49):
need to speak truth.
So it has to be real.
But having that real empatheticbut also truthful affirmation
going on is a really importantthing for everyone.
And I think in particularleaders, but for everyone.
Bob Tipton (55:04):
Yes.
Therapists, clergy, they have aterm they use.
It's called compassionatedetachment.
And the idea is that they'reable to see what's going on and
talk about it plainly anddirectly in a compassionate sort
of way, but they don't wind upowning it.
It doesn't belong to them, backto my second question.
Yes, it's real, but it's nottheirs.
(55:25):
So I think that's one of themost important things for
leaders to do right now also, isto be compassionate, but don't
take on everybody's issue as ifit's yours, because it's not.
They have to do their ownsuffering sometimes.
They have to do their own work.
But helping them, modeling.
Back to your story aboutDebbie, that's exactly what she
(55:45):
did.
She was a teacher in abouteight seconds, and it changed my
life.
Well, yeah, the laser-level Ilove me wall, I'm going to go
put
Joe Miller (55:55):
it in a box.
Now I remember the I love mewall.
That was great.
Bob Tipton (55:59):
I love me.
Yeah.
Joe Miller (56:01):
Yeah.
Bob, this has been great.
Thank you so much for takingthe time.
And I look forward for the nextinstallments here.
In the show notes for everyone,I will plant the links to Bob's
website where you can getsigned up for his webinar and
other related information thathe spoke to.
There was a book reference, forexample.
(56:22):
And we should probably gettogether within the next week or
two to do the next one, Ithink.
If that works, I'll...
Talk to you about that.
But again, Bob, thanks so muchfor jumping on on Titans again.
I really appreciate it.
I'm looking forward to thefruit that will come out of this
work you're doing.
Bob Tipton (56:40):
Thank you, Joe.
Appreciate it.
You bet.
Joe Miller (56:42):
Bye-bye.
Hey, thanks for joining me todayon Titans of Transition.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Please check the show notes foradditional information.
Hey, welcome everyone.
I just wanted to jump on inhere and bring Bob Tipton on.
As you might know, if you'vebeen following the channel for a
while, Bob was my first Titansguest.
Actually, we recorded aroundthis time, maybe a little
earlier, five years ago.
He's been a supporter of thechannel and has a unique, I
(00:23):
think, sensitivity beyond thetechnology space and experience
way beyond that.
So, Bob, I saw, I think I gotan email from you about a month
ago inviting me to a new webinaryou had, and the title really
hooked me.
It really dealt with kind ofwhat we're all experiencing
(00:45):
right now.
Give us the background and letus know what compelled you to
come up with this new content.
Bob Tipton (00:53):
Yeah, thanks, Joe.
It's good to be with you again.
We have known each other a lotlonger than I think either one
of us want to admit, but I knowI had certainly a lot less gray
hair back then.
So yeah, the title of thewebinar is Navigating Times of
Radical Change.
And for whatever reason, itseems to be that my life is just
filled with opportunities tonavigate times of radical
(01:14):
change, go all the way back tobeing the middle child in a
dysfunctional family.
That's kind of how I got innavigating all this.
And then through the years as aprofessional, There's been a
whole lot of things that havehappened, a lot of things in my
personal life.
As I've gotten older, I'vegotten, I think, a little bit
more patient, a little bit moreobservant.
(01:35):
I've developed a better set ofskills.
What I'm seeing right now isjust there's such a degree of
suffering that's happening withpeople.
They're so reactive in theworld right now to whatever it
is.
Some people get just absolutelyaddicted to following every
single shred of informationabout some particular thing.
(01:56):
And they can have theiremotions swing wildly from one
day to the next, depending uponwhat the latest thing that they
just heard.
You know, from a biologicalperspective, if we live our
lives adrenalized, first of all,our lives are shorter.
They're a whole lot less fun.
And we're not given much beyondthe fight, fight or freeze
(02:17):
options that adrenaline providesfor us, which isn't really
great for making good executivetype decisions.
If you're spending all yourtime worrying and being
activated by things.
So I decided, because I've beenlooking around and I've been
dealing with a lot of things, wetalk about some of that if it
comes up, but I've been dealingwith a lot of things myself over
(02:38):
the last year.
I just decided, let's get sometools out there to help people
be able to navigate things moreeffectively.
It doesn't necessarily makethings easier, but It doesn't
make things go away, but the waythat we approach our response
and activities to what'shappening, we're in control of
that.
Joe Miller (02:59):
Yeah, I think as we get into this content more and
discuss it and just let everyoneknow, I will put links in the
show notes so that you can jumpon the webinar, which is a
complete unpacking of thesetools that Bob has provided.
What we're going to do is havea series of several episodes
(03:21):
where we'll take maybe one ortwo primary principles, tools,
and Bob will unpack it for us,and we'll just interact.
But what comes to mind to me,Bob, you and I, before the call,
we did a little preliminary andtalked about kind of the echo
chambers of all the information.
And by the way, this is not...
(03:42):
As you stressed with me, thisis...
It doesn't matter what side ofthe political spectrum you're on
or whatever spectrum you're on.
It's how to evaluate all thismassive amount of input.
We get more and more of it.
It's accelerating informationand what's real, what's
nonsense.
(04:02):
How do we get out of just beingoverwhelmed by the information
that's hitting us and evaluateit?
So I think You know, Icompletely resonate with that.
Sometimes last week, I took alittle personal retreat because
I just had to step back and dosome planning ahead.
(04:24):
But I realized how addictedI've become, even though I'm
aware that it's easy to becomeaddicted to these devices,
right?
These tablets and phones andthe constant barrage of
messaging.
And we barely have time to evenengage our prefrontal cortex in
evaluating them.
So really resonate with that.
(04:46):
Yeah, take us through some ofthis, Bob.
Bob Tipton (04:48):
Yeah, so the term you use, echo chamber, really
disempowering.
It's also very seductive.
You know, one of the thingsyears ago in my career, I found
out myself running a marketingorganization, which is not my
formal training, but it was avery sophisticated company.
And I don't need to hear thewhole story, but I wound up
running a group that wasresponsible for influencing the
(05:11):
way that people thought aboutthings, the way that they would
buy things, their habits.
And I learned the inside scoopabout how they actually do that.
And it was terrifying, to behonest with you, because it
preys on our fears.
It preys on things that we aresusceptible to.
And about 20% of the populationis highly influenceable, as I
(05:32):
discovered working with themback then.
So they're the ones you goafter first.
You try to get them to dothings and then create momentum
around that.
And the echo chamber issomething that's done
intentionally.
It's important to realize thatit's not something that happens
by accident.
It is something that isscripted.
(05:53):
And there are rules and goalsand measures and tools that are
being applied, whatever it mightbe.
So, you know, we all feel likewe're a victim of algorithms on
our devices.
We are if we let ourselves be.
And part of the process ofgetting out of the echo chamber
is acknowledging the fact thatyou're in one.
So without that, you just fallprey to it.
(06:15):
You find yourself receivingcontent that reinforces the
messages that they want you topay attention to.
Go all the way back to probably20 years ago, the movie
Minority Report.
Precogs.
Oh, yeah, the precogs.
It's like we have the pre-crimedivision, and it's this whole
idea about predicting things.
(06:35):
Well, that's the basis of thestory.
But if you remember walkingalong, it had this recognition
capability where all the contentwas being customized and
tailored as we went from placeto place to place.
And you actually had to changeyour retinas to be able to get
the messages to have somethingelse.
So that's a pretty extremeexample of changing the way you
(06:56):
look at things.
One of the perspectives that Ioffer in this idea is stand
back, even for 10 minutes, andjust ask yourself, what do you
continually see?
What messages are continuing toshow up?
And what behaviors have youembodied in order for that to be
the case?
(07:16):
So for me, I like to confusethe algorithm and I do things
that are unpredictable andconfusing.
So I will look at things that Ihave absolutely no interest in.
I will look at both sides ofwhatever the question is pretty
deeply.
I will examine a variety ofdifferent viewpoints and then
let the algorithm try to figureout who the heck this Bob Tipton
(07:37):
guy is.
Joe Miller (07:38):
What do I serve him next?
Bob Tipton (07:40):
Yeah, it's like, I don't know who this person is,
but they don't fit our profile.
Cool.
Also, one of the other thingsthat I found, I read a book
years ago called Stopping, EvenWhen You Have to Keep Going.
And it's this idea of takingsome time in between things to
be able to reset, refresh, togive yourself space, actual
(08:00):
energy to do something.
I have a training now.
It's called why energymanagement is a new time
management.
It's this whole idea of itdoesn't matter how much time we
apply to something.
It's the quality of the energythat we bring.
So that book was talking aboutscheduling 50-minute meetings
instead of 60-minute meetings,turning the radio off in your
car.
So, Joe, it's this idea ofseparating intentionally from
(08:25):
the barrage.
Give yourself room.
Get out of it for a bit.
Stand back and look.
And if you still want to engagein social media, because it's
great.
In some ways, it's fantastic.
But don't be predictable.
So jam it up
Joe Miller (08:41):
by not being predictable.
I guess, and then maybe one ofthe underlying things here to
discuss is that first you needto have awareness of what's
going on here.
It's that old analogy of beinga fish in the ocean and being
unaware that you're swimming inan ocean.
Bob Tipton (08:58):
Yes.
Joe Miller (08:59):
So that's part of it.
I think maybe that's part ofwhat you're trying to accomplish
with the webinar as well asgive people tools.
You have to start with thatawareness, right?
Bob Tipton (09:08):
Yeah, well, there's three levels of awareness when
you talk about what you'redescribing, Joe.
And training helps, experiencehelps, intentionality helps.
But the first level ofawareness is after the fact.
So I just did what I always do.
It's like, darn, I just didwhat I always did.
I just wasted 90 minutes stuckon looking at cat videos.
(09:28):
That's first level ofawareness.
Second level of awareness isyou're in the middle of doing
what you normally do.
And the realization pops intoyour head to say that I'm
suffering due to somecatastrophe.
I'm being activated by amessage that I'm receiving.
Second level awareness isgreat.
You choose to do something,okay, if you don't, but you
(09:50):
still made a choice in themiddle of it.
The third level of awareness isyou prepare yourself in
advance.
So before you sit down with, Idon't know, Facebook or
Instagram or whatever yourfavorite social media channel
is, or before you start lookingat news, and I'm not even sure
how to define that term anymore.
When you're looking atsomething, prepare yourself in
(10:10):
advance.
I choose not to be activated bythe message I'm receiving.
That takes some time.
It takes some intentionality.
So when we think aboutnavigating times of radical
change, the first thing to dois, are you awake?
And what I mean by that is, areyou aware to what's happening?
Your example of you're swimminginside of an ocean.
(10:30):
As a fish, you don't feel thewater, but that's where you are.
So A, Are you aware of what'shappening to you?
And without some form ofintentionality, we just stay in
the echo chamber.
It just continues to reinforce.
The other thing, Joe, is thisconditioning or bias.
This idea, I don't know, I goall the way back to driver's ed,
(10:53):
and that was a long time ago,but I go back to driver's ed and
My driver's ed teacher said,you know, we naturally drive in
the direction that we're lookingin.
And that's what we do whenwe're driving a car.
We have our hands on a steeringwheel.
It's a great metaphor.
Well, there was a time when Iwas in Scotland driving on the
other side of the road for thefirst time.
And we're on a small road, alittle B road in the middle of
(11:17):
no place.
A car got very close to me.
I got very close to their car.
Well, their instinct was toturn the wheel to the left to
get off the road.
My instinct was to turn thewheel to the right.
And what happened was we almosthit each other.
I went the direction theydidn't expect me to go in, and
they went in the direction Ididn't expect them to go in.
(11:38):
But I was conditioned to turnthat way.
So this idea of, again, withoutsome form of intentionality, we
find ourselves.
So here's, I have a series offive questions.
Maybe we can dig into the firstone here.
When we find ourselvesnavigating times of radical
change, this awareness, havethis pop into your head when
(11:58):
you're looking at something.
Is it real?
It seems like a really obviousquestion, except that how many
things that are happening rightnow in the world that are just
pure theater?
They're no t real.
Joe Miller (12:10):
Mm-hmm.
Bob Tipton (12:11):
It's somebody somewhere putting a message out
there that's trying to get aresponse.
And if it doesn't, if it's notreal, it isn't real.
So examples of that would be, Idon't know.
Again, this is not political.
You pick whatever political adyou ever want to see.
Anyone.
I don't care which one it is.
It's going to suck no matterwho gets elected.
That's the basis of politicaladvertising.
(12:33):
It's going to be horriblewhoever gets elected.
Is that true?
Joe Miller (12:37):
Back to your earlier comment.
Those things are targeted toget a response.
I call it the lizard brainresponse, right?
And to get all those hormonesflowing, to get that kind of
intense response.
Yes.
Bob Tipton (12:55):
Yeah, so they hook you with something.
They'll give you a headline orthey'll give you a soundbite.
And if you're in your echochamber and you're not aware of
what's happening, you're gettingthe fish swimming in the water,
you'll react to it.
And that's what they'recounting on.
is for you to react to it.
So one of the most importantthings in times of radical
change, so let's use an exampleof, I don't know, massive
(13:18):
organizational shift.
There's something that'spotentially going to come and
somebody talks about it as if ithas happened or it's going to
happen.
Is it real?
It hasn't happened yet.
It may never happen.
And as a result, all the timeand energy we spend worrying
about it is wasted creativity.
So I call that taken to anextreme.
(13:39):
We do that type of thing.
It's called suffering inadvance, Joe.
We suffer in advance.
We give away our power.
We give away our agency and allof our ability to advocate for
ourselves, and we give it tosome other source.
And at that point, we arequote-unquote powerless to the
echo chamber.
Taken to an extreme, beyond thesuffering in advance, we can
(14:01):
call it premeditated bitterness.
We're already pissed off aboutsomething that hasn't even
Joe Miller (14:06):
happened yet.
Just...
Maybe think of this, Bob, let'ssee what you think of this, or
maybe for this, that researchhas been done that shows that
just processing in our mindswhat we think is happening
produces all the same emotiveresponses, all the same
chemicals, whether it's actuallyhappened or not.
I know there's just beenresearch like that.
Bob Tipton (14:28):
Big time.
That's what elite athletes use.
It's this idea ofvirtualization.
Right.
Or people that believe in, Idon't know, manifestation.
It's this idea of if you createit in your mind, your mind
can't tell the differencebetween the truth and a story
that's repeated regularly.
Right.
Joe Miller (14:48):
Well, we know that.
And we should be suspiciouswhen we hear the same things
over and over again, because,you know, I think about the, I
think I mentioned this to youbefore this call, it reminded me
of the Star Wars scene withObi-Wan Kenobi saying, These are
not the droids you're lookingfor, that mind control technique
that a Jedi could do that wethink, oh, that's kind of
(15:10):
interesting.
But, you know, some of thatactually happens.
And as it's conditioning, it'simplanting those thoughts and
beliefs are built upon that overtime.
And so then it becomes theframework.
We talk about biases, but itbecomes the paradigms or the
framework that we see allincoming data from.
evaluate against and then wetend to amplify we tend to look
(15:34):
for things that correlate oragree with what those rules of
how we're looking at the worldand it built
Bob Tipton (15:44):
yeah conversely we just simply eliminate anything
that doesn't the same
Joe Miller (15:48):
thing yep and actually you know that paradigm
research uh Kuhn, I think, wrotea book about scientists in the
laboratory.
They had a hypothesis they werelooking to prove, and they got
dated, did not agree with theirparadigm, and it got discarded.
(16:09):
Almost at a subconscious, Ithink at a subconscious level.
It wasn't like, oh, thisdoesn't agree.
It doesn't fit what I want.
I'm going to throw it out.
It's like, it just doesn't evenappear, which seems a little
bit spooky.
But it happens.
Bob Tipton (16:26):
It can be deadly.
Joe Miller (16:27):
It can be really deadly, right?
The stakes can be really high.
Bob Tipton (16:32):
Yes.
I found myself a few years agoinvited to speak at the CIA
headquarters of all places.
And I was there to talk aboutbias.
And the people I was talking towere the analysts that create
the president's briefing on aday-to-day basis.
And in their world, bias isdeadly.
If you choose to rule insomething because of
(16:54):
conditioning or rule somethingout because of conditioning, it
can turn out to be very bad forsomeone somewhere.
So this idea, they were datascientists, and how do you keep
bias out of data?
So a lot of it is unconscious.
A lot of it has to do withyears and years and years of
conditioning.
When you see something, youreact to it.
(17:15):
So this is all in the categoryof, is it Even real.
Joe Miller (17:20):
Real.
Bob Tipton (17:20):
So, so much of what's happened in the last
several years, we can just goback to five or six years in our
world, there have been so manythings that have been put
forward as if they are true andthey wind up not to be upon
further examination.
Or they're nuanced in terms ofwhat truth is.
I worry about statistics.
This is another area that I amconcerned about with how people
(17:43):
present data.
I will present statistics thatshow my perspective in the most
positive light.
I will limit the window thatthe data is actually available
in, in order to make my point.
And then, I don't know ifyou've seen it though, all the
information that correlation isnot causation or causation is
not correlation.
Yeah.
Silly charts with the numberof, you know, fatal spider bites
(18:06):
compared to the number of BigMacs consumed in Northern
California.
Oh yeah.
I'm making it up.
Joe Miller (18:13):
Well, it, It could be done.
There was a textbook in collegecalled How to Lie with
Statistics, which kind ofcomplements what you're saying.
How things are presented, howthings are framed.
And if you don't reallyunderstand data analysis and
(18:33):
statistics, it's even easierto...
being manipulated.
I'll just use that harsh word,but that's what it is.
And this is one of the things,you know, having spent three
plus decades in thepharmaceutical industry, there's
a lot of scrutiny on clinicaltrials to make sure that
(18:59):
products that are developed aresafe and actually work, have
efficacy.
But there are things that arecommon misperceptions like A
doctor may say to you, I may getmyself in trouble for this, but
they say, oh, you need to be ona statin.
And we'll quote percentage ofrisk reduction.
And actually, the percentagethat is being quoted is
(19:20):
relative, not real risk oractual risk reduction.
So you get an amplified senseof benefit because that's the
way the study presented thedata.
You know, clinicians that aredeep into a particular
therapeutic area, theyunderstand this.
Things get repeated without theneeded context.
And maybe context is animportant piece here too.
Bob Tipton (19:43):
Well, yeah.
And one of the most importantcontexts for all this kind of
gets into the second questionabout navigating times of
radical change is, does itbelong to me?
You know, maybe it's real, butI have no role to play in it.
I have no, it's not going toimpact me in any way, shape or
form.
It, not my backpack to pick upand carry around.
(20:03):
And that's another one of thethings that happens in these
forms of manipulation, if youwant to say it, is it creates
the false sense that we'resomehow included or we're
somehow responsible or ourparticipation is necessary.
It's amazing how many peopleare so willing to pick up
something that doesn't evenbelong to them.
(20:24):
So when we're consuming news orwe're consuming messages
associated with things, Yeah,maybe we discern through
whatever means we use to say,yeah, this is something that is
real or likely to occur.
But I have no role personallyin dealing with any of it.
Joe Miller (20:40):
Yeah.
Well, so you have no role.
You have no ability.
So kind of differentiate thosethings.
It's not in your circle ofconcern or it's not in a place
where you could utilize anypersonal agency to have an
impact.
Unpack that.
Bob Tipton (21:00):
Correct.
Yeah, so the difference betweenthe two is important.
Well, I worry about a lot ofthings personally.
I've got a lot of concernsabout what happened to certain
populations.
And I'm interested in what'shappening to certain
populations.
That doesn't mean every singlecircumstance that I run across,
I should feel a sense ofpersonal obligation to do
(21:20):
something about.
That's just not possible.
Instead, I can maintain mysense of empathy and compassion
and interest, circle of concern,as you said, but my circle of
action is much smaller.
So what I'm suggesting that wedo, if it belongs to us, then
we're able to do something aboutit.
And that kind of leads to thethird question.
(21:43):
The two are highly correlated.
So if it's something that is aradical change, it's real, and I
have some actions that is minethat i choose to take or or need
to take the next question hasto do with what do i do now
especially when it's somethingof a radical change nature it's
(22:04):
immediate it's significant youhave something that's necessary
for you to do and this is whereone of my favorite books of all
time it's called deep survivalit was written by a guy named
lawrence gonzalez who I don'tremember which Chicago paper he
wrote for, but he was ajournalist and he researched
accidents, boating accidents,plane crashes, people being
(22:26):
stranded on desert islands, allthose kinds of situations that
truly are life and death.
The subtitle of his book is WhoLives, Who Dies, and Why?
And what his research showed,and I encourage you to read the
book because I'm giving you theCliff Notes version here, but
his research showed a couple ofmaybe surprising things.
One, those that made it weren'tnecessarily of any particular
(22:50):
age.
So being experienced didn'treally matter.
And secondly, your trainingwhen it comes to survival was
helpful, but it wasn't the mostimportant thing that correlated
to whether you would make it ornot.
The most important thing thatcorrelated to whether you made
it, there's actually two partsto it.
I honestly don't remember nowwhich was first and which one
(23:11):
second.
I just remember there's two ofthem.
One was you adapted immediatelyto your new circumstances.
So let's say you lost your job.
Well, I tell you what you dowhen you lose your job is you
adapt to your new circumstances.
There are things that have tobe taken care of immediately.
Things like health care andunemployment, if that's an
(23:32):
option, or job search, whateverit might be.
It's every minute you spendwishing the circumstance was
different is a minute lost whenit comes to being able to be
adapting to your currentreality.
So this idea of being in anavalanche, let's say, in the
mountains, the first thing youneed is air.
Everything else comes second tothat.
(23:56):
So you find things to help yoube able to survive.
I need food, I need shelter, Ineed water.
I need to be able to physicallybe safe.
Well, the same thing's true inthe world of some radical
change.
In fact, and then the secondthing that correlated in his
book, in his research, whetherwe made it or not, is the belief
that you're going to make it.
(24:16):
So this idea of havingconfidence or a positive
attitude about it or belief inyourself.
So this idea of adaptingquickly, in fact, one of the
other surprising things aboutthe book is People that were
rescued, many of them hadadapted so fully to their new
circumstances, the rescue wasseen as it was disruptive.
(24:36):
So those that made it for weeksor months in a very difficult
circumstance, when they wererescued, it was like it was
disruptive.
They weren't ready to go backto their other life because
they'd have adapted so fully.
So anyway, there's this list ofthings, this stuff that's
necessary to do now, capital N.
(24:57):
And what I find when people arein the midst of some radical
change is there's a whole lot oflooking over the next hill, to
use the metaphor, if you getlost in the woods.
You just keep walking and youhope that someone's going to
come and rescue you.
Well, maybe they will.
But in the meantime, there arethings that need to be done.
Joe Miller (25:20):
Yeah, I think I could be wrong, but to me, it
might go back to our discussionabout the flight or fight
response and sense of panic oranxiety takes over so that
people stop thinking.
I envision an impending planecrash and the panic, right?
(25:41):
And trying to instill sometraining up front you know, at
pre-flag training, things weshould do, you know, in the
event of an emergency like that,I think is intended to get us
out of that and getting in to dothe next right thing in terms
(26:01):
of our safety and surviving.
So I resonate with that.
And as I think about it andthink about just the state of
the affairs where we jumped offon this discussion, a lot of
people I know seem to be in thisreally heavy angst about the
situation, talking about it alot from their perspectives.
(26:21):
It doesn't matter what side ofthe aisle they are, but not
really doing much.
You know what I'm saying?
Because maybe there's nothingthey can really do.
So they know it's important.
All their juices are up andthey're just in a high state of
(26:42):
anxiety.
And so having practical tools,I think, is really useful.
So, yeah, so this is great.
Bob Tipton (26:52):
Yeah, I mean, back to your aircraft, airplane crash
example.
That's one of the primary areaswhere flight attendants are
trained.
They're trained that there's 90seconds to get everyone out of
a plane.
So it's not, do I care aboutyou as an individual?
Am I worried about what you'retrying to take with you?
There's a whole list of thingsthat they're trained to just
(27:13):
simply insist upon and it isyou're right it's to break
through that adrenalized stateof panic and fear so that we're
able to survive the plane crashwe need to get out of the plane
and that's an example of whati'm talking about here there's a
certain short period of timewhere we need to be able to do
something and that's being awareof where we are being aware of
(27:37):
our circumstances and being ableto quell the panic and the fear
enough that we're able to makesome immediately good choices.
And then once that's done, thenthere's questions four and five
in this idea of what's next.
So yes, it's real.
Yes, I have a role to play init.
And again, as you're talkingabout people just simply being
in a state of fear all the time,take a deep breath.
(28:00):
Let's just use that.
Sit quietly with your dog oryour cat.
Take a walk.
Get yourself out of the cyclingof the energy through some form
of intentionality.
That'll be helpful.
We'll just put that out there.
Sometimes a deep breath isincredibly helpful.
So after we've done what'snecessary immediately, so I
(28:22):
built a lean-to, I found somefirewood, something, whatever is
necessary, then you startplanning.
And this is where you have ashort-term plan.
And the short-term planconsists of a very short runway.
What do I need to do in thenext hour?
What do I need to do in thenext day?
What is necessary for me ableto navigate what's happening?
(28:46):
So I'll give you an examplefrom my personal life.
My wife passed away about 13months ago.
We were married 45 years, Joe.
We were in a relationship for50 years.
She was my person.
I was her person.
It was tragic.
It was immediate.
It was completely unexpected.
And there's a lot ofadrenalization.
There was a lot of sitting andwondering and worrying, but not
(29:10):
for long.
There were things I needed totake care of, like how to make
decisions about the right thingto do with her life support.
I needed to make decisionsabout what to do when it came to
next steps for her body and etcetera.
There's a short-term plan forAnd if we're by ourselves,
that's one thing.
But if we have people around usto be able to support us in
(29:32):
this planning exercise, I'lltell you, one of the things I've
learned over and over and overin my life is that people are
good.
People care.
They can be clumsy.
They can be awkward.
They cannot know the rightthing to say or how to say it.
Awesome.
But they care and they want todo something.
(29:53):
So when we find ourselves inthis circumstance and someone's
offering assistance, say yes.
None of this, well, no, I'mokay.
I'll fight my way through it.
It's like I found myself, Joe,when people said, I'm going to
do this for you.
It's like, please, thank you.
(30:13):
The worst question is, what canI do for you?
I have no freaking idea.
Right.
Joe Miller (30:21):
Again, you're in the middle of that swamp of tragedy
and crisis.
And your reflective thought is,I should know what to do
because I've built a career anda life out of personal agency.
I've been successful at that asa leader.
(30:42):
Now I've just been sideswipedby this thing.
It can be hard to accept help.
So there's real wisdom inknowing to do that.
when you need it, and havingthe awareness to recognize your
own state and why you need it.
Bob Tipton (31:03):
Most definitely.
It requires a level of, well,I'll just use a physics example,
reciprocal energy.
Giving energy and receivingenergy is the same energy.
I need to receive your energybecause you need to give your
energy.
If I don't allow you to giveyour energy, I'm stunting your
(31:23):
ability to do something.
So I can get a lot more intothat subject than we have time
for today.
The idea, people are good, Joe.
People want to help.
They may not know what to do orthey may not know what to say,
but they are there.
Part of our realization, again,getting out of this
(31:47):
conditioning, you know,especially men of a certain age,
all right, I'll just categorizeus.
Men of a certain age, we wereraised to be able to have
answers to whatever.
I found I was very ill-equippedand there were people in my
life that had wisdom andexperience and knowledge and
empathy.
And if I disallowed theirability to help me make a plan
(32:07):
in a time of a radical change,I'd still be navigating it.
So that's question four.
What's my plan?
So it's real.
I have a role in it.
I have taken care of myimmediate things.
What do I have to do now?
Now what's my plan?
So that depends on thecircumstance, obviously, but
(32:28):
getting some concrete actions inplace is a good thing.
So that kind of leads us up toquestion number five in this
whole process.
Question number five is how doI get started?
You can have a great plan andstill be paralyzed.
You can still be worried abouthow it might appear.
You can worry about it beinglooking clumsy or somehow being
judged or ridiculed for what youdo.
(32:49):
The list of what do I do firstor what do I do now sometimes is
predicated by what's in yourplan.
But one of the most importantthings to do, to do first,
imagine someone who just dug abig hole and they're holding
onto the shovel.
And they're looking aroundsaying, what should I do first?
It's like, if you find yourselfin a hole, stop digging it.
It seems really obvious to saythat.
(33:11):
But this idea of gettingyourself out of the
self-defeating, the conditionedresponses, sometimes that's the
very first thing to do is to trysomething you normally have
not.
Joe Miller (33:24):
That's interesting.
I'm going to get back toaccepting help from others.
And I'm sure you've You've gotsomething in this space.
But again, this idea ofawareness and knowing that
you're in, you're diggingyourself in a hole.
Having someone close to youthat you trust to sort of help
you see a broader perspective ofthe situation you're in, that
(33:47):
you trust their perspective, canbe really helpful here.
Bob Tipton (33:53):
Well, you're absolutely right.
And the thing I worry aboutsometimes, I'll just use another
personal example.
A week or two after Debbiepassed away, I was getting
something from one of herfriends' house who also lost her
spouse and had been remarriedfor a while.
And one of the first things shetold me was, Bob, you're never
going to be the same.
And I thought, you know, someabstract sort of way I kind of
(34:17):
knew that, but it was such anill-timed message.
Sometimes it's important, Joe,to know that Even people that
you care about that might havesomething important to say to
you, they can be speaking fromtheir own conditioning, from
their own patterns, from theirown belief system or where they
are in their own journey.
So this idea of curating isprobably the word that I would
(34:43):
describe.
Curating the sources ofinformation, comfort, support,
whatever it might be, as much asyou're able to.
Be clear about who and whereand why you're receiving
information.
This was completely out of leftfield.
It took me completely bysurprise and it really wasn't
(35:05):
helpful.
So rather than ruminating on itand thinking, oh my gosh, I'm
never going to be the same andlife sucks and it's always going
to suck.
It's like, I have to set thataside.
So what I did is I walked awayas I just simply put that in a
box to be open later.
So maybe that's the firstcourse of action.
is to take something and put itin the box to be open later or
(35:25):
never.
Now I understand what she wassaying.
I get it.
Joe Miller (35:28):
Yeah.
Wow.
Well, thanks for sharing that.
Of course, I've known it, butbeing that transparent, this is
real world stuff.
I'm just curious, these steps,these different levels that
you've shared, is there examplesor a way you could describe
them?
Kind of just...
(35:48):
More generally, maybe not soacute of the situation you've
gone through, but let's sayyou're a leader in an
organization and your team thatyou're responsible for is in a
lot of turmoil because ofmessaging either internally to
the company, whatever the casemay be, or externally in the
world, or it's, you know, wehave tariffs, we have this, we
(36:10):
have that, and they're trying tonavigate all this and they're
struggling.
How could some of these thingsbe applied?
in sort of that real world typesituation.
Bob Tipton (36:19):
Yeah, so when we translate this into leadership,
there's two dimensions to thatthat's important, Joe.
You know, I've been through alot of organizational upheaval.
I've been through mergers,acquisitions.
I've been laid off twicepersonally.
I was in a circumstance where Ilaid off lots and lots of other
people.
There's a real world componentto this for sure.
And leaders have a specialresponsibility when it comes to
(36:42):
navigating times of radicalchange.
I think first, it's a matter ofsaying, do I want to be part of
this radical change personallyor not?
That is the first question.
So another example from mylife, I was offered a really
great job when I was very young.
It meant moving to anothercity.
And all I had to do was lieabout a merger and acquisition
(37:03):
issue that was about to face mystaff.
That's all I had to do, whichis to train myself.
I said, no, this is not for me.
So there's an opt out.
option as well, I think isimportant for people to
navigate.
The second, I guess that's thefirst thing.
And then there's two otherthings.
The two other things are knowthat you're going to be going
(37:26):
through this personally asyou're leading people through it
themselves.
There's a level of authenticitythat people can see right
through if you're just being theApollo cheerleader, you know,
just stiff upper lip to use tomy British upbringing.
This idea that we just need tomarshal our energy and we'll get
through it and so on.
You're probably denying yourown process and you're not
(37:49):
helping other peopleauthentically process through
things themselves either.
So first, you need to realizethat you're in the midst of it
yourself.
If there are significant issuesthat are happening and how to
be able to not separatecompletely, but there's a level
of compartmentalization that'simportant and authenticity as a
leader that's necessary.
So here's a specific example,Joe, when you're talking to your
(38:13):
staff about something.
Yeah, I'm not sure.
I don't know how this willaffect me personally.
I'm concerned about some thingstoo.
I get it.
And what I do have controlover, Joe, at this point as a
leader and you do as staff, youhave control over how you feel
about all of this.
I have control about how I feelabout this.
So what I'm going to do at thispoint is be transparent as much
(38:37):
as possible.
I'll tell you what I can tellyou.
I'll talk about what I can talkabout.
And I'll tell you what I can'ttalk about.
And you're going to need totrust me about that.
Joe Miller (38:45):
I tell you what I can do and what I can't do.
Bob Tipton (38:49):
Yes.
What do I have control over?
I have control over myattitude.
Right.
You know, when people areafraid of job loss, oh my gosh,
the worst thing to do is gohide.
Because the people that aregood at discovering who should
go, that's who you look forfirst, the people that are
hiding.
The best thing to do if you'reafraid of job loss, and this
(39:12):
comes to the other side ofthings, make yourself
indispensable.
Continue focusing on greatwork.
Ladies and gentlemen, in mydepartment that I'm leading
here, no, we're not in controlof all this other stuff that's
happening.
But we're still in control ofdoing great work.
So I'm going to go downswinging if I go down.
I'm going to go down doinggreat things to support the
organization.
Or I'm going to opt out.
(39:32):
It's not this worry andwringing my hands and gnashing
my teeth and accelerating allthe activation of people's
adrenaline and the fight,flight, or freeze.
I'm not going to be part ofthat as a leader.
Either I'm in or I'm not in.
And for leaders, that can be areally hard choice because we're
suffering with fear and anxietyand the unknown because we're
(39:54):
human.
And here's one of the weirdthings that happens in
leadership.
It's happened over and over andover again.
When times are tough, And bythe way, this is a natural
process.
That's something I wanted toshare today also.
Nature has a regular process oforder, disorder, reorder.
It happens every year withdeciduous trees when they lose
(40:17):
their leaves.
And guess what?
The tree is not worrying aboutwhether it's going to lose its
leaves.
It's not worrying during thewinter whether it's going to
come back or not.
And it's not worrying when theleaves start showing up again
that they're going to eventuallyfall off.
It's just a natural process.
Or the caterpillar who goesfrom a caterpillar into a cocoon
and then turns into a moth or abutterfly.
(40:39):
There's no worry.
The in-between state for acaterpillar before it becomes a
butterfly, it doesn't look likeeither one.
Great example.
Completely liquefied.
It's a little bit like if youwalked into the middle of an
operating room during surgery,you think murder happened.
Yeah.
It doesn't look like it did andit doesn't look like it will.
(41:02):
It's this in-between state.
So order, disorder, reorder isnatural.
The problem is that we don'tallow ourselves to see that.
We're probably the only specieson this planet that actually
worries about it.
Dogs don't worry about it.
They just miss you, and thenyou come home, and then they're
excited.
So this idea of leaders beingable to help staff recognize
(41:27):
that disorder is sometimes partof the natural process.
And holding on to things theway they were, that's not
natural.
You know, we can get into realphilosophical conversation at
some point about this idea ofimpermanence, but nothing's
designed to last.
Joe Miller (41:46):
As you were talking about that situation, that
leadership situation, since I ama coach, I wanted to say an
empathetic leader should becoaching their staff on how to
look at things.
and clarifying what's real andwhat's not real, being
transparent about theircapabilities to help them
(42:06):
through the process, what theirlimitations are.
I've often coached people whohave been interested in
furthering their career,typically technology leaders,
but others as well.
And one of the common thingsthat happens is they get into a
state of angst because theydon't feel like they're moving
(42:27):
forward.
They feel like they can't doanything about it.
And sometimes, whether it'stheir fault or external factors,
they're in a situation wheresuccess probably, there's not a
lot upside for them there.
Yet, they still feel like thereshould be.
And You can offer suggestionson how you can do the things
(42:51):
that help you stand out, all thetypical things, manage your
relationship with your boss.
But underlying all of it, theyare disempowered in a state of
angst and almost panic, and theydon't know what to do.
And I have actually said topeople before, you have a
choice.
You can stay and change yourmindset, or you can leave, or
(43:13):
you can work.
Maybe there's a third choice,or you can change your behaviors
to stand out, but you may stillend up feeling the same way.
That's reality.
So there's the world you want,and then there's the world that
really is.
And so, yeah, awareness first,but I just thought as you were
going through that and unpackingthat situation with your
(43:36):
material that coaching peoplethrough these thought processes
could be extremely helpful.
A coaching program, Bob.
You probably already have itdesigned.
Bob Tipton (43:45):
Yeah, maybe this goes back to my Quaker
background.
I don't know.
My family goes way back to theQuakers.
And one of the things they haveis a clearness committee.
And a clearness committee isnot a place to go get advice.
You don't go there to be toldanything.
What you do is you go there andthey ask you a lot of
questions.
And it's the idea for you to beable to get clear about the
(44:07):
direction that you're in andwhy.
So back to what you're saying,Joe.
We always have a choice, evenif it's down to how I feel about
it.
Maybe I have to stay in thecircumstance for a period of
time, but I can decide how Ifeel about that.
No one is in control of myfeelings except me.
And that's, again, getting outof the echo chamber when people
(44:29):
are trying to make you feel acertain way.
But opt out, that's a powerfulthing when people are in the
midst of something that's very,very challenging to deal with.
This, again, is a pretty deepphilosophical question.
topic, but there's this idea ofopting out is not failing.
Joe Miller (44:46):
Stop digging.
I can argue that it's probablythe best choice in certain
circumstances, like the exampleyou gave, but many others.
Bob Tipton (44:58):
Often, it's the best choice when you're being asked
to do something that is immoralor unethical or illegal,
something that violates yourpersonal set of values.
Whenever you do that, You don'tget it back.
What happens when you cross theline is you betray a little bit
of yourself.
So when I'm coaching people,Joe, that's the question I ask
(45:22):
them.
Are you betraying yourself insome form or fashion by
remaining in the circumstancesyou're in or potentially staying
in the same thought processthat you're staying in?
And if the answer to that isyes, it's like, that's a pretty
clear indication to me thatopting out is a good idea.
Alternatively, maybe you'remaking it all up.
(45:42):
The circumstance isn't evenreal and it doesn't belong to
you.
And you're just, you're puttingall this bias and all this
conditioning on top of somebodythat doesn't deserve it.
I find that a lot in mergersand acquisition work and
reorganizations is people have afeeling in general that that
radical type of change is justgoing to be bad.
comes a self-fulfillingprophecy.
(46:05):
So it's like somebody reachedout to me.
They're applying for a job in aplace where I have some
relationships and someknowledge.
I gave them a tip.
Take a look at thisorganization's values and
connect your resume and yourinterview to their values.
It'll make a big difference foryou.
(46:26):
It's like, well, that's a goodidea.
Pretty basic, actually.
Yeah.
It's something that maybe weshould do every day when we show
up at work is to say, how can Ihelp push the mission of the
organization forward?
So all that's kind of in thecategory, Joe, of what to do as
a leader.
There's a lot more.
You know, the third part of mywebinar gets into some really
(46:48):
specific ideas associated withthat.
And I know we've got moresessions together.
So I'm going to save some ofthe feel for them.
But that's kind of what.
Joe Miller (46:57):
You've held that webinar a couple times so far.
Bob Tipton (47:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's relatively new.
Yeah.
Joe Miller (47:04):
And do you open up for questions at the back end of
it?
I'm just kind of curious of thetype of questions that have
come up, if you can recall.
Bob Tipton (47:13):
Well, one of the questions is, so I work in an
organization where our commontheme is, well, that's just the
way we do things around here.
That's just the way it is.
I'm going to wait this out theway I've waited everything else
out.
It's in this idea of learnedhelplessness is the category I
put that into.
And It's back to what's yourlevel of concern, your circle of
(47:33):
concern versus your circle ofaction.
You know, if you're in a highlevel of leadership inside of an
organization, maybe you canstart talking about
psychological safety and starttalking about empathy and being
able to have more effectiveleadership and more connection
to your values.
But if you're kind of a footsoldier inside the organization,
again, why are you continuingto stay?
(47:54):
The answer, again, it's alittle bit of a broken record.
The answer to that is, what areyou doing?
So you can steer from theinside of an organization.
You can decide that I'm goingto behave differently.
You may be ridiculed for it.
You may be reprimanded for it.
You may be retaliated against.
But you're doing what you cando.
Joe Miller (48:15):
Going back to sort of evolutionary biology, we've
touched on a little bit alreadywith the lizard brain and the
flight or fight response.
We also...
want to seek comfort.
And it's sort of the other sideof flight or flight or flight.
And I find that often peopledraw the circle of, you said
(48:39):
action, influence action, verytight, very small.
And so they amplify theirhelplessness in a situation
beyond what the reality is.
And rather than even take someinitial steps of personal
agency, They just sit and wallowin it.
Now, I'm saying all thesethings like it's never been done
(48:59):
by me.
I have done this.
Believe me.
Bob Tipton (49:03):
Sure.
Joe Miller (49:04):
That's how I recognize it so well.
But that's so common.
And even very highlycompensated leaders can get into
this sort of thought processand feel like, you know, I hear
a lot of whining, I want a seatat the table.
I want people to listen to whatI have to say.
You know, it's just like, okay,I get it.
I mean, there's some realitythat that might be a challenge.
(49:27):
But what good is this doing,you know?
And I've heard it said before,and for some reason, the writer,
it slips my mind right now.
But anyway, when these thingscome up, he has said before,
you're stalling, right?
Possibly.
Bob Tipton (49:44):
It's
Joe Miller (49:46):
like a defense mechanism or you're
rationalizing things.
to support the fact that youhaven't taken any action.
You're stalling.
I love that word, thatterminology, because in some
ways it's true.
It's like, you kind of knowthis already, but you don't want
to go there.
Bob Tipton (50:03):
Yeah, it's possible.
You know, there's certainpersonality types that like to
do more processing.
They like to be able to thinkabout things longer and they
don't make immediate decisions,but that's not everybody.
It's back to the third questionthat I have.
What do I need to do now?
Joe Miller (50:18):
Mm-hmm.
Bob Tipton (50:18):
And then into fourth, what's my plan?
But yeah, this idea of learnedhelplessness, it's like the
Geico alligator in thecommercial.
I can't reach the check in themiddle of the table because my
arms are too short.
It's an idea that I'm notworthy or it's not my
responsibility at some level ofdeflection.
You know, you can spend yearsin therapy and still not get
(50:39):
past that.
The idea of agency, as you'veused the word several times in
our conversation, is a word thatI don't think many people
really spend much time thinkingabout.
That is another thing thatleaders, I think, in today's
world, I think it's reallyimportant.
It may be necessary, it may bevital.
It's this idea of being able tohave people...
(51:02):
authentically feel that theirvoice matters.
You know, how many people inyour life, Joe, count them for
me.
How many people in your lifecan you ever remember saying,
looking at you in the eye andthey say, I believe in you?
I think my mother
Joe Miller (51:15):
used to say that occasionally, but not a lot.
I mean, definitely in theminority.
Bob Tipton (51:22):
Very small.
Very small.
So that's one of my intentions.
I have two granddaughters thatlive with me and every day
before they go to school orwhatever the day is, I said,
guess who believes in you?
And they say, that guy.
Ah,
Joe Miller (51:36):
I love it.
That guy.
Bob Tipton (51:38):
It's the whole idea of reminding people of their
worth and their value and theirpower and the contribution they
make.
not in an inauthentic way touse the double negative.
This is something that is true.
You need to feel it yourself.
Yeah, that's been a journey forme over the last year is to try
(52:01):
to figure out who the heck Iam.
Yeah.
Debbie's husband.
Well, guess what, Joe?
I have value.
Joe Miller (52:06):
I'm going to share a little bit of a story here
because thinking of Debbie inone of our podcast episodes
together, you were talking abouthow you were setting up your
own office.
Remember this story?
A
Bob Tipton (52:18):
great story.
Joe Miller (52:19):
Wow.
I mean, and how you had allyour accomplishments and all
your certificates and all yourawards and everything in your
office.
And you went up to talk toDebbie about something, and she
was an artist, right?
She was in her studio.
And when you went into heroffice, you saw a big
(52:39):
difference.
On her wall was the pictures ofthe family, right?
Am I remembering this right?
And then you immediately wentback down to your office and
tore this stuff down.
Bob Tipton (52:50):
Yeah, it was such a moment of clarity, such a moment
of openness about what wevalue.
Joe Miller (52:57):
So it was modeled by her.
Bob Tipton (53:00):
Oh my gosh.
For
Joe Miller (53:00):
you.
So I guess the point I'm tryingto make is, and I think you
were kind of underscoring this,the importance, not just for
leaders, but all humans, is toencourage one another to to see
the value in themselves bytruthfully speaking, when you
see that value in them.
Bob Tipton (53:18):
It's like yesterday, I was with a project team of
about 25 people that are workingon a large, complex capital
project down in Atlanta.
They took risks.
They showed strongpsychological safety.
They said things to each otherthat needed to be said.
They really did a nice job inthe workshop.
And at the end of the workshop,I just looked around and said,
(53:38):
I think you're freaking awesome.
congratulate yourselves for thehard work that you did and the
risks and the vulnerability youshowed, because that's not
normal.
What people tend to do in thesetypes of settings is they hold
back and they position and theyposture, they politic, they look
for an opening, and then theyrush in to try to get some
leverage.
And you didn't do any of that.
Instead, you decided, let'sfocus on what's right, not who's
(54:02):
right.
It was remarkable, Joe.
It was great.
Joe Miller (54:06):
Yeah, just a final thought here.
And I've been doing a lot ofstudy recently on spiritual
formation.
And the author of the book I'mreading, Dallas Willard, talks
about everyone is being formedall the time.
And it really correlates towhat we're saying about the
conditioning, right?
The question is, what's theinput, right?
Bob Tipton (54:26):
Right.
Joe Miller (54:27):
And so one thing that we all, everyone can do is
what you just touched on.
And that is speak truth andencourage each other and be part
of the positive conditioning.
It's got to be real.
It's got to be truthful.
Because if it isn't, you'd haveno credibility when you really
(54:49):
need to speak truth.
So it has to be real.
But having that real empatheticbut also truthful affirmation
going on is a really importantthing for everyone.
And I think in particularleaders, but for everyone.
Bob Tipton (55:04):
Yes.
Therapists, clergy, they have aterm they use.
It's called compassionatedetachment.
And the idea is that they'reable to see what's going on and
talk about it plainly anddirectly in a compassionate sort
of way, but they don't wind upowning it.
It doesn't belong to them, backto my second question.
Yes, it's real, but it's nottheirs.
(55:25):
So I think that's one of themost important things for
leaders to do right now also, isto be compassionate, but don't
take on everybody's issue as ifit's yours, because it's not.
They have to do their ownsuffering sometimes.
They have to do their own work.
But helping them, modeling.
Back to your story aboutDebbie, that's exactly what she
(55:45):
did.
She was a teacher in abouteight seconds, and it changed my
life.
Well, yeah, the laser-level Ilove me wall, I'm going to go
put
Joe Miller (55:55):
it in a box.
Now I remember the I love mewall.
That was great.
Bob Tipton (55:59):
I love me.
Yeah.
Joe Miller (56:01):
Yeah.
Bob, this has been great.
Thank you so much for takingthe time.
And I look forward for the nextinstallments here.
In the show notes for everyone,I will plant the links to Bob's
website where you can getsigned up for his webinar and
other related information thathe spoke to.
There was a book reference, forexample.
(56:22):
And we should probably gettogether within the next week or
two to do the next one, Ithink.
If that works, I'll...
Talk to you about that.
But again, Bob, thanks so muchfor jumping on on Titans again.
I really appreciate it.
I'm looking forward to thefruit that will come out of this
work you're doing.
Bob Tipton (56:40):
Thank you, Joe.
Appreciate it.
You bet.
Joe Miller (56:42):
Bye-bye.
Hey, thanks for joining me todayon Titans of Transition.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Please check the show notes foradditional information.
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