May 27, 2025 • 59 mins
Are you ready to be the leader who inspires through change? ✨ In this insightful episode ( 3rd in the series) with Bob Tipton, CEO / Principal Change Architect , we explore the critical leadership behaviors that can make or break your ability to guide others during moments of radical change. Whether you're navigating career transitions, organizational transformations, or personal growth, this conversation is packed with real-world wisdom and life lessons to help you rise to the challenge.
We dive deep into the five leadership behaviors to avoid—like gaslighting and blame-shifting—and uncover the seven essential traits every inspiring leader should embody. From transparency and empathy to accountability and resilience, these traits aren't just nice-to-haves—they're the foundation for building trust and connection in uncertain times.
The journey of leadership is never easy, especially when faced with disruption, but this video offers actionable strategies to help you show up, communicate effectively, and keep your team inspired, even when the path ahead feels unclear.
If you're looking to transform the way you lead and make a lasting impact, this episode is for you! Check it out now and discover how to inspire others through change. 🚀
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Joe Miller (00:05):
Hey, welcome back.
I'm really glad to pick up onthis third session, really
focusing on leading throughradical change.
Now, we talked about, you know,is it real?
You know, the messaging we'regetting, what we're interpreting
through the world and all thedifferent channels to us, being
more mindful.
Today, the focus is really onleaders and leadership.
Bob Tipton (00:27):
Yeah, yeah, it's about leadership behaviors that
are important during times ofradical change.
And, you know, one of thethings to note, well, touch base
on this as we get closer to theend, but radical change, as we
talked about in the firstepisode, is necessary.
It is something that happens.
There's no just simply stoppingit from happening.
(00:49):
And in some situations, it'sreally beneficial.
So this idea of order,disorder, reorder is nothing to
be feared or pushed away.
Instead, as leaders, it'sreally important for us to be
able to be good at it as much aspossible, recognizing that
Often we're affected by it asmuch or more than those that
(01:09):
we're leading.
So there's a little bit ofcompartmentalization that's
important.
And I'll talk about some ofthat as we get into the
individual behaviors.
But it's nothing to be afraidof.
It's something to be good at.
And that's what I want to tryto discuss through in this final
episode.
How do we get good at doingthese kinds of things?
And I put things into twodifferent categories.
(01:31):
There's five differentleadership behaviors we
absolutely do not need.
And I'd like to talk aboutthem, but unfortunately, they
show up a lot.
And then there's sevenleadership behaviors that I
think are really important aswe're dealing with
transformation or radicalchange.
So for a moment, as leaders,it's very important to think
about who we're leading.
George Patton, General GeorgePatton, Second World War, he had
(01:54):
one of my favorite quotes,although we didn't have YouTube
back then, so we can't provethat he said that.
But He said, as a leader, everynow and then you have to turn
around and see if people arestill following you.
That's good.
Yeah, we can get way ahead ofthe people that we're leading
and we can lose them.
And at that point, oureffectiveness is lost.
(02:16):
So a lot of this idea thatthese behaviors I'm talking
about is to keep people engagedand keep them connected and
making sure that we actuallyhave some followers as we go
forward.
So I don't know, Joe, I'm sureyou've experienced situations in
your career where you wereasked to do something and you
(02:39):
knew about it weeks or months inadvance.
And then it's a matter ofletting people know.
And then some of us aresurprised that they're taking it
the way that they did, right?
Joe Miller (02:49):
Yeah.
You know, early in my career, Iremember thinking more about
the outcomes that I wanted and
Bob Tipton (02:55):
And
Joe Miller (02:55):
then it was sort of very simplistic about, oh, I
know I need to communicate and Ineed to be clear.
One of our previous episodes,you talked about leaders, you
know, assuming that everyone hassigned on for the change.
I don't remember the exactlittle snippet you had there,
but that was an important piece.
Bob Tipton (03:16):
Yeah, not everybody wants to be part of what's going
on.
It may have been the stages orsteps in transformational
change.
There's an opportunity.
Right.
Yes, exactly.
Joe Miller (03:37):
Yeah, that really does tie back to this notion of,
is there anybody behind me?
Right?
And if they're not, why aren'tthey there?
Bob Tipton (03:47):
Yep.
How did I lose them?
Well...
We lose them with these fivebehaviors that really aren't
helpful.
So I want to start with atleast, I'll start with the first
one for sure.
And then we'll talk about theother four as we go.
But the first one that is just,it's never okay, but it's
definitely not okay during timesof uncertainty and
transformation.
(04:08):
And that's gaslighting.
And What I find a lot in socialmedia and what I find on news,
quote unquote, people aresaying, I didn't say that.
That's not what I meant.
Why are you being so sensitive?
It's an attempt to have peoplequestion whether they actually
heard things correctly and takento an extreme.
It can be a form of bullying.
(04:29):
Where...
You're trying to hold somebodyaccountable or trying to get
clarifying questions surroundingsome circumstance or situation,
and they wind up gaslightingyou.
It's designed to have youquestion your own sanity.
And like I said, it's neverokay.
To me, it's an example of verylow personal accountability,
(04:49):
very thin skin.
People are really concernedabout how they might look.
They can't be held accountableto anything.
So they just try to make theother person feel like they're
nuts because they didn't hearsomething like that.
So I don't know if you remembera time, I remember a time where
I was being gaslit by myleaders in an organization and
it felt terrible.
Joe Miller (05:12):
Yeah.
Bob Tipton (05:13):
So the first night I went back and I thought, did I
really miss this?
Did I hear it incorrectly?
And then I went back through mynotes and emails and all that.
And I said, no, that's whatthey did.
So how quickly a leader losestheir integrity, loses their
trust and This is the peoplefollowing them if they are
(05:33):
gaslighting people.
Joe Miller (05:35):
It's one of those situations in an organization
that it starts with oneindividual or one or two doing
the gaslighting and it becomesalmost like a virus that the
other people are just repeatingthe same information and not
realizing there's no anchor backto truth there.
Bob Tipton (06:00):
Yeah, it's a lot easier to just simply repeat
something than it is to becurious to find out about the
source.
You know, that's anotherdynamic we talked about in the
first session, that is justbeing in an echo chamber.
If you don't know you're beinggaslit, it's a mechanism to keep
you in your echo chamber.
It's like, oh, I just have tokeep listening to whatever this
leader is telling me becausethat's the source of all things
(06:23):
that are true.
And I think we have a real lackof curiosity here.
in our society.
We have so much going on.
We are so overwhelmed withthings.
We just tend to accept thingsand move on.
So yeah, one more time, no onesaid the line, Luke, I am your
father.
And anyone who tries toconvince you of that is just,
(06:45):
they're gaslighting you.
It's not true.
So that leads into the secondbehavior that we really don't
need, leadership behavior duringtimes of uncertainty.
And I have a story that I wantto tell about this one.
So it's the idea of ablamestorming, trying to assign
blame to someone else.
So finger pointing, you know,it's someone else that did this.
(07:08):
So the story goes like this.
I was working with a publicschool district.
I won't tell you where,obviously, because it's not a
really positive story about herdistrict.
They had serious, seriousacademic problems.
In fact, 18% of fifth graderswere reading at grade level,
1.8%.
And in fifth grade, do you wantthat to be 90 or higher?
(07:31):
Because up until third grade,you learn to read.
And after third grade, you readto learn.
So the prediction for theacademic success of kids in the
school district was reallyterrible.
And I scheduled, for the firsttime ever, I've actually never
heard of anything like this witha public school district
anywhere.
I had a three evening scheduledback to back to back with the
(07:56):
senior leadership and the schoolboard in the same room.
I have never heard of thatbefore or since.
It probably has happenedsomewhere, but it took until the
middle of the third night, themiddle of the third night.
So we're talking seven hours ofbeing with this group for them
to finally say yes to thequestion when I asked them.
Do you own the path forwardtogether?
(08:17):
back to this idea ofaccountability, Joe, if I had
one thing that I would injectinto humanity, it would be
(08:38):
personal accountability.
I think the world would besubstantially different if we
all operated from a perspectiveof personal accountability.
So this bling storming isuseless.
It provides no value.
All it does is try to makeothers look bad and make you not
look bad.
It's the equivalent of puttingin your Teflon clothes.
(08:59):
Nothing sticks to you.
Joe Miller (09:01):
So what do you mean by brainstorming?
Maybe you can give an example.
Bob Tipton (09:04):
Well, it's a play on words.
It's brainstorming versusblamestorming.
So it's this idea of I spend alot of time and energy trying to
find somebody else to blame.
Joe Miller (09:14):
Okay.
Bob Tipton (09:16):
That's the idea.
I see.
I didn't come up with the term.
Somebody did years and yearsago, but I've sort of glommed on
to it because I like the way itfeels, this idea of
blamestorming.
Okay.
I don't know if you've everbeen in a circumstance where
you've asked somebody and theyjust simply point at somebody
else and say it's their fault.
Joe Miller (09:36):
Oh, yeah.
And I think even, it's a littlebit nuanced, but even watching
behaviors at senior leadershiplevels and understanding they're
positioning themselves fordeniability.
You know, they're wanting tomake sure that nothing can come
(09:57):
back on them.
So it's sort of a proactivenon-accountability stance.
And that actually drives a lotof behaviors.
Bob Tipton (10:07):
It does.
You know, Geico made a wholecommercial about that.
It was a group of people aroundthe table.
They have lunch or dinner orsomething.
There was an alligator.
that was at the table andcouldn't reach the check, you
know, because of tiny littlearms.
I can't reach the check.
It's this learned helplessnessthat there's no way that they
(10:27):
can do what they need to do.
So, you know, the term isplausible deniability.
It's all about trying to find away that it doesn't come back
on them.
But that happens a lot inpolitical discourse.
I don't care You know, we'vereally, I think, done a good job
here staying out of anyparticular ideology or
perspective because it doesn'tmatter.
(10:48):
All of them do it.
And that's kind of the thirdleadership behavior that we
don't need ever.
It's deflection.
So I get frustrated trying toget information about policy
perspectives or stances when itcomes to those that are making
(11:08):
policy that are looking to beelected to whatever
organization.
role, I don't care, citycouncil all the way up to
president of the United States,it doesn't matter to me.
But trying to get a straightanswer to a straight question,
isn't it fascinating how thepolitical candidate, I don't
care who they are, they all, youknow, they might give a
blustering sort of two or threesecond kind of thing and then
(11:29):
immediately go back to theirtalking points and their
platform.
They don't answer the question.
Slippery is the word
Joe Miller (11:35):
that comes to mind.
Bob Tipton (11:38):
Yeah, lip service, it's I'm going to act like I'm
going to answer your questionand I just don't.
And in times of radical change,in times of transformation,
that is so frustrating.
It's like all I want is ananswer to the question that I'm
asking.
Going back to what we talkedabout in the second installment,
I want to know something that'srelevant to me and I want you
(12:00):
to communicate it in a way thatI find accessible, right?
and valuable.
I want you to be able tosatisfy my question, why?
And when you keep going back toyour talking points, think
about this, massiverestructuring, job loss,
mergers, acquisitions, and allwe get from people is
(12:20):
deflection.
Again, immature leaders, and Ihate to sound judgmental, but
I'm going to sound judgmentalfor just a minute.
They depend upon talkingpoints, and that's it.
It's not a matter of givingcontext or Well,
Joe Miller (12:36):
it's a defensive strategy to make sure that they
don't expose true accountabilityor expose a potential chink in
their armor, so to
Bob Tipton (12:46):
speak.
Yeah, it's this idea.
I don't know if you've heard ofBrene Brown.
Yeah,
Joe Miller (12:53):
sure.
Bob Tipton (12:53):
Okay, so Brene Brown wrote a book called Daring
Greatly.
It's a book my daughter gaveme.
I hated it, and I loved it, andI hated it.
It was one of the books Icouldn't pick up, and I couldn't
sell.
It just really drove me nuts.
But one of the most importantmessages in that book is around
the courage to be vulnerable.
And deflection is the oppositeof that.
There is no desire, no abilityactually to be vulnerable if
(13:18):
you're constantly deflecting.
So we can see right through it.
It's one of the fastest waysthat we can just simply lose
faith in those that we expect tolead us.
if we're not getting straightanswers as to straight
questions.
So the fourth behavior that wedo not need from leaders during
times of radical change ortransformation has to do with,
it's sort of a cousin that laststoo, but it's whataboutisms.
(13:42):
What I mean by whataboutisms,it's this idea that, well,
so-and-so is behaving badly.
Joe Miller (13:47):
So why can't I?
Why can't I?
Yeah.
Bob Tipton (13:52):
Why are you picking on me?
Why are you picking on me?
That's right.
Everybody's behaving badly.
Everybody's broken.
It's like, stop that.
It's not helpful when you'resaying that, what about
so-and-so?
So it's the story of, well,so-and-so's parents let them
have ice cream before dinner.
(14:12):
It's like, well, do they callme mom or dad?
Is that the relationship theyhave?
So it's trying to justify yourown poor choices, your own bad
behavior, own lack ofaccountability, et cetera, by
pointing at somebody else.
And there are so many examplesin politics.
I can't bring them up becauseit points to one viewpoint or
(14:35):
another, but it's constant inthat world to say, well, what
about so-and-so?
Joe Miller (14:41):
Well, I mean, there's examples from children,
right?
I mean, that's where you oftensee it show up.
Why am I getting in troublewhen Johnny over here just did
that and you didn't call themout, mom or dad?
So it starts at an early age.
Bob Tipton (14:58):
Yeah, and the example that you used there,
it's just a very immature thing.
Again, it's leaders that don'thave confidence, leaders that
are trying to manipulate,leaders that are not wanting to
be vulnerable, and that's justnot helpful.
I don't think it's helpfulever, but it's especially not
helpful when there's significantuncertainty.
(15:19):
People just want answers toquestions.
So we'll dispense with thefive, with the fifth one here.
And the fifth one has to dowith self-aggrandizement.
And if you can imagine apicture of someone sitting on a
throne with a crown and ascepter, And what they've done
is they've drawn all authorityto themselves.
(15:40):
I'm large and I'm in charge andnobody gets to make decisions
without my blessing.
You know, it's this idea thatthey are the hub to all the
spokes.
And taken to an extreme, it canfeel like a dictatorship where
there is no ability to disagreeor to ask clarifying questions.
(16:01):
You're looked at as weak.
or looked at as ineffective ifyou're just trying to ask why.
And it's just, you'redismissed, you're dehumanized,
you're invalidated becausethere's one authority figure
that is central to everything.
That's a lot of pressure forthat person to put themselves
into that role because nobody isempowered to make any decisions
(16:23):
at all.
And ultimately, this is wherecultures that depend upon a
single leader fall apart.
They all fall apart at somepoint.
They all have in history, ifyou go back and follow it,
because the organization isn'tmaking decisions.
It's depending upon that singleself-aggrandizing leader to
(16:44):
make all the decisions for them,to establish all the policies
and perspectives.
So during times of radicalchange, boy, I hope that person
never sleeps.
I hope that person has anopen-door policy where they can
talk to everybody all the time.
Because organizationalparalysis happens when people
aren't empowered to be able tomake decisions.
Joe Miller (17:06):
That's a point struck home just then because,
you know, a healthy organizationfosters personal
responsibility.
It fosters people takingactions.
It disrupts productivity.
It disrupts everything, really.
You become completely dependentupon people.
(17:26):
leader who has enthronedthemselves to be the arbiter of
all truth and all direction theneverybody else becomes you know
mindless and they just sit insort of this zone of inaction
and indecision
Bob Tipton (17:43):
yeah and learned helplessness just
Joe Miller (17:45):
learned helplessness that's kind of a that was what
i was looking for thanks bob
Bob Tipton (17:49):
oh it's just rampant yeah because of two things.
One, I have no authority tomake any decisions, so I'm not
going to.
Or I tried it once and I got myhead handed to me, so I'm not
going to ever do that again.
It becomes the classicbureaucracy that we see at the
Department of Motor Vehicle,which is unfair.
(18:09):
There are a lot of Departmentof Motor Vehicles here in the
state of Colorado that operatevery efficiently.
They are excellentorganizations when it comes to
productivity, but the stereotypeis, That's the place to go for
things that are slow and peopledon't care.
I think there was another maybeGeico commercial that had
sloths at the customer servicedesk.
(18:31):
I remember that.
They were laughing very, very
Joe Miller (18:35):
slowly.
That's hilarious.
Yeah, that's a good example.
Bob Tipton (18:39):
That's why those commercials are funny is because
there's a level of truth that'sin them that's based typically
in something that is historic oris a pure stereotype.
So...
Taken in aggregate, these fivebehaviors, we see them way too
frequently inside oforganizations, especially those
that are trying to controleverything associated with the
(19:02):
transformation or the radicalchange.
Back to what we talked about inrelevance theory in the second
installment, it's not up to usas the communicator to decide
what's relevant.
The listener or the reader isthe one that gets to decide
what's relevant.
And if all we're doing isdeflecting and blaming and doing
whataboutisms and drawing allauthority to ourselves, people
(19:23):
aren't satisfied at all.
So here's another dynamic thathappens with these five
behaviors that I think mostpeople undervalue or
underprioritize.
When people don't feel likethey're being heard, they're
being valued, they're Those thatcan leave the organization
first are the ones that do.
The ones that are the mostmarketable, that have the best
(19:46):
skills, the best network, thebest opportunity to move on,
those are the people that leavefirst.
So you've probably seen them,the different surveys that are
out there.
Every survey I've seen over thelast, I don't know, my entire
career, I guess, it's eithernumber one, number two, or
number three reason why peopleleave an organization is because
(20:06):
of a poor supervisor.
Yep.
So can we dispense with thefive that we shouldn't do and
talk about the five, I'm sorry,the seven that we should?
Joe Miller (20:14):
Maybe we can just dwell on what you shouldn't do a
little bit and how to catchyourself when you may fall into
these patterns.
Because obviously everyonewho's on is looking to improve
themselves, but sometimes it'sgood to dwell on, are there some
signals that I can payattention to?
You kind of hinted at one, noone's following me, that may
(20:36):
point to a number of these, butI'm wondering, when I find
myself saying this, or when Ifind myself behaving in this
manner, maybe it's somethingthat falls into one of these
five.
Bob Tipton (20:48):
Yeah, I think that there's a real red flag, and
that is when people get quiet,when they quit talking, when
they quit...
Joe Miller (20:56):
Not getting anything back?
Right.
That's another way of, they'renot following me.
They're not signed on.
Right.
Bob Tipton (21:04):
They don't care.
They've checked out or theydon't trust what you're saying.
When no one's asking anyquestions, when nobody is
looking for clarification, whenno one is challenging you, you
know, I go back years and yearsand years ago.
I may have used this in ourfirst session.
I don't know.
But there are different rolesthat we play.
(21:26):
The group dynamics, you know,studying communications are
different groups.
And there's this role called acentral negative role.
And a central negative issomeone that has the best
interest for the organization atheart, but they think they can
do your job as well or betterthan you can.
And so it's not self-serving intheir negativity.
It's something they're tryingto make better for the
organization, but they'llquestion you constantly.
(21:48):
And when that person stopsquestioning you, you've got real
problems.
They've given up.
Yep.
Anyway, years ago, I hadsomeone in my organization.
I was a very new manager.
And she would just simplyquestion everything I said in
staff meetings.
It was frustrating.
And after I went through two orthree of those, I said, there's
(22:08):
got to be a better way.
So what I did was I reached outto her ahead of time and I went
over the agenda with her and wetalked about all the points
that I was wanting to make anddiscussion items.
And the first meeting we hadafter that, the staff sat open
mouth staring at both of usbecause there was no contention.
Joe Miller (22:27):
Yeah.
Bob Tipton (22:27):
We had reached some level of understanding to agree
or not agree, but we hadconversation ahead of time.
So it wasn't this challenging,conflict-filled sort of a
situation.
So anyway, if no one ischallenging you or everyone
starts giving you yes sir, nosir, yes ma'am, no ma'am kind of
(22:48):
answers to things, somewhereyou're demonstrating one of
these five or multiples of thesefive behaviors that are just
not helpful.
Joe Miller (22:56):
The other thing I was thinking about, I'm just
curious what your response wouldbe to this.
Oftentimes in leadership roles,you're asked to support a
certain position that thecompany is putting forth in
regards to a change or astrategy.
And you want to be able to besupportive as a new manager,
(23:17):
certainly.
But I found myself beingcrosswise sometimes.
In my team meetings, I took therisk.
I'll put it this way.
of just stating where I was atwith that and just put it on the
table saying, this is what thecompany's doing.
This is the rationale.
Now, I'll be honest with you.
(23:38):
It's kind of what I said.
I'm not 100% sure about thismyself, but it's important for
us all to go forward.
You know, some kind of languagelike that, but just giving a
hint of transparency that itkind of falls into sort of the
gaslighting thing a little bitin that I don't want to be just
part of that repeating crowdthat's not processing.
(24:01):
Maybe just saying, yeah, I'mstruggling with connecting all
the dots here as well.
And I know this is hard.
And, you know, just showingsome empathy.
I don't know.
What do you think of that?
Bob Tipton (24:15):
Well, that's one of the seven behaviors that I think
is really...
Joe Miller (24:20):
Okay.
Bob Tipton (24:21):
Yeah.
Joe Miller (24:21):
I don't know what your seven are yet.
Bob Tipton (24:23):
Yeah.
It's a great segue.
Go ahead.
So, yeah, I'll jump into thatone first.
Transparency is something thatpeople know that they're in the
presence of or know they're notin the presence of.
They either trust it or theydon't trust it.
And some people think, well, Ihave to be careful about being
transparent.
(24:43):
No, you need to be specificabout being transparent.
So transparency, there arethings that we can talk about
and there are things that wecannot talk about.
and being very clear about thedistinction for others about
which is which.
There's certain things I cannottalk about, please don't ask me
anymore.
I have no answers that I canshare with you and I won't for,
(25:06):
and that gets into another oneof the behaviors, but I can't
right now.
These are the things I can talkabout and I'm gonna speak
freely about them.
So transparency is the ideathat what happens, this is one
of these other behaviors, whenyou know you're not being
transparent, people feel thatyou're you know the answer
you're just not sharing it youcan't trust me with the answer
(25:28):
you're just not sharing ityou're hiding something and when
you're transparent about whatyou can and can't say people
have that feeling sort ofdissipate they say okay thank
you for letting me know what i ihave questions about these
things so that's transparency ithas a cousin and the cousin is
(25:50):
being forthright or beingforthcoming and it's interesting
that we can tell the truthwithout being forthcoming
whereas i can tell the truth butnot the whole truth the idea
about being forthcoming is iwill create oh here's a tangible
example of being forthcomingyou'll create a frequently asked
questions database that'scomprehensive it's thorough and
(26:13):
And this idea of forthcomingnessis I'm going to anticipate in
advance, which I guess isredundant, I'm going to
anticipate the questions thatyou may ask, and I'll come up
with answers to those ahead oftime.
You know, FAQ databases thatare rich and robust, they start
with some pre-populated answersto questions that nobody really
has asked.
The better ones are those whereyou try to look over the hills
(26:36):
and around the corner for othersto say what might they want to
know.
And then as real questions arebeing asked, you populate the
database with those.
So I find way too frequentlythat people look at FAQs as
being a waste of time.
I don't want to take the timeahead of time to create
something that might help peopleunderstand what's coming.
(26:57):
We just don't have time.
We have to move.
Well, back to the conversationabout all of this.
During times of uncertainty,people have an internal timer
inside of their head.
They will wait, wait, Wait.
And then after that, they startmaking up their own stories.
And I think I mentioned thisbefore.
The stories are alwaystragedies.
(27:17):
They're never comedies.
They always put themselves in astarring role of the tragedy.
So it's like when somebody usedto driving with my wife and
somebody would cut me off, I'draise my hands and I'd yell at
them.
And she said, of course, Bob,they did that to you personally.
It was something they didespecially to make you angry.
And it brought me right back toreality to say, no, they either
(27:38):
didn't see me, they didn'tcare, they've got some emergency
going on.
But no, they didn't do it tome.
So this idea of forthcomingnessis necessary.
This making sense?
Joe Miller (27:50):
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
Bob Tipton (27:53):
Yeah.
So those two are critical whenit comes to communication, being
transparent and beingforthcoming.
To stop the process of peoplemaking up their own stories or
believing that you're hidingsomething.
The third behavior that is soimportant has to do with
accessibility.
And this was something that wasa mess during COVID.
(28:16):
I always like to use that as anexample because we lived
through it, all of us, in someform or another.
How do people know how to get ahold of you?
Do you respond when they reachout to you?
Do you have a...
I don't know.
Some organizations come up witha key word that they use that
otherwise wouldn't be in anormal everyday conversation,
(28:36):
like pomegranate.
Let's use that one.
I don't know how often you usethe word pomegranate, but
probably virtually never duringa year.
Someone puts in the messagesubject line for an email,
pomegranate, it's like, I needto drop everything and pay
attention to this, right?
So do you have office hours?
Do you have specific channelsof communication where you will
(29:00):
respond sooner?
Do people know how and when toget a hold of you?
Or does it come back to, I knowwe talked about this before,
this idea of I'm busy.
You put up the shield, you putup the wall to say, don't try to
reach me because I'm busy.
Well, that's not what our staffneed during times of radical
change.
They need to feel like they canreach us.
(29:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Recognizing that we may begoing through this change
ourselves, maybe our job is atrisk.
Maybe our department is beingeliminated.
Maybe we are going through amerger or acquisition as a
leader.
Guess what?
Leadership has a specialrequirement for us to be able to
(29:42):
compartmentalize some of thatand help those that we're
leading.
So accessibility is critical.
Joe Miller (29:47):
Yeah, that's an interesting one because you
think, well, That's a littleobscure or that's a little, I
wouldn't have predicted that,but it actually is extremely
important.
Bob Tipton (29:59):
Yeah.
I'll give you an example.
Last week, I was in a meetingwith a client.
I was actually sharing mynavigating times of radical
change presentation, but it waslive.
It wasn't in a webinar form.
So I had 17, 18 leaders andorganization that were sitting
(30:20):
and listening to me.
And about, you know, the wholewebinar lasts about 50 minutes.
It was about minute 45 and myphone started blowing up.
It just, the text messages andphone messages, something was
going on with my youngerdaughter.
And in the middle of mypresentation with the leadership
group, I had to stop.
(30:41):
I said, I need to stop.
My phone was blowing up.
I have, uh, a requirement in mylife that I've established that
if I'm trying to be reached byone of my children or
grandchildren, I'm going to stopwhat I'm doing and find out
what it was.
So I told them that.
They were gracious.
I had them sort of talk while Ileft the room.
Well, my daughter was in theemergency room with stroke-like
(31:01):
symptoms.
I had a radical change that Ineeded to navigate right then.
And the requirement for me tobe accessible to my daughter
trumped everything else that Iwas dealing with.
It became number one.
Turned out she was okay.
She had some form of a migraineheadache that can create
stroke-like symptoms.
But for a half an hour as I wasdriving to the hospital, it was
(31:25):
terrifying.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there's also the corollaryhere of not being accessible.
I needed to tell my client thatI was not accessible because I
had something that I was dealingwith personally.
So those are the first three.
Having people know where theycan reach you and believe what
you're saying because you'rebeing transparent and
(31:45):
forthcoming.
Number four on the list is theidea of being reassuring.
And please don't take this ashollow cheerleading, singing
kumbaya around the campfire.
You know, that can be a form ofgaslighting.
Don't worry about it.
Everything's fine.
Well, if everything's not fine,don't say that.
This idea of being reassuringinstead is we're working the
(32:08):
problem.
We're trying to figure it out.
We have the best people, thebest minds working on this.
Top men, top women.
You know that whole thing backto Apollo 13?
Men.
Top men, top women.
We have the best people in theorganization working on it, but
it's this idea of reassurance.
We don't know right now, butwe're working hard to figure it
(32:30):
out.
People, just like you did,you'll nod your head.
You'll feel a sense ofconfidence if your leader is
exuding confidence A feeling ofreassurance.
Joe Miller (32:40):
A lot of these things also, there's kind of
stated at a point in time, butthose that are listening and
watching to us are watching ourbehavior throughout time,
throughout the timeline.
So, I mean, like the last one,when you were talking about your
daughter's emergency and howthat required your accessibility
(33:02):
at the moment, your client atfirst might go, okay, now I get
it.
But when you show back up andthey know that you're putting
something else in the backposition, then that's a mark of
integrity, right?
And in the same way, the Apollo13 example, to just say top
people are working on it is apoint in time.
(33:24):
But cross a timeline andhistory with an individual, if
you build up credibility andtrust, that gives them
confidence.
a much better sense of calm andpeace through that turmoil
because they know what you're,they can count on what you've
said based upon their historywith you.
Bob Tipton (33:43):
Yeah, definitely.
In fact, if you don't have thatintegrity, if you don't have
that accountability and all of asudden you show up like you do,
they'll look at it as a form ofmanipulation.
Yeah, absolutely.
You're just trying to make mefeel a certain way and I don't
trust or believe you.
So yeah, that's veryinsightful, Joe.
It's this idea that There arepoints in time where things we
(34:07):
do or say that are critical, buthow we have behaved over time
is a way for people to be ableto trust and believe what we're
doing or saying.
Joe Miller (34:15):
And I think it gets back to transparency and it's a
little bit counterintuitive too.
I think that it's helpful totell people the truth when
you're not sure what the heck isgoing on.
And as a leader, we want to wewant to be able to be in a
position to be able to reassurepeople but if we don't have it
and i can think here's oneexample if we don't have that
(34:37):
assurance it's really a mistaketo try to pretend you do because
that point in time will thenbuild distrust i remember one
large organization that i workedat 20 plus years ago where we
had a huge system failure and atthat point in time All of our
systems worldwide werecentralized in one location.
(35:00):
And the shipping functions weredown.
And this meant tens of milliondollars of an hour being lost,
probably more than that.
And there was my engineersworking on the problem.
And there was three or fourother vice presidents around me,
(35:21):
staring at me, wanting me tointervene and to beat people up.
That was my sense.
And to, come on, we're notgetting the resolution we need
to, right?
They're panicking.
And I just said, we don't knowwhat the problem is yet.
Me getting in the middle of it,not knowing the detail that
(35:42):
they know, isn't going to behelpful.
Now, that wasn't the rightmessage back to my peers or
people above me even.
So I just bring that up as anexample that it is okay to say,
you're still not sure what theheck is going on.
Because then later on when yousay, we have a handle on it, but
(36:03):
it's going to take time, thenthere's more trust that you're
being straight.
Bob Tipton (36:07):
Yeah, there's a level of consistency in these
types of messages where thebehaviors are demonstrated and
we see it over time.
Trust is one of those thingsthat you can take years to build
and you can lose it in aninstant.
Yeah.
I think this is a sign ofmature leaders as well is
transparency.
(36:27):
Going back to what you saidoriginally, this sort of
triggered all the segue was Iwas in the leadership team
meeting.
We talked about this thing.
I had some concerns.
I still don't know that I feelI understand all of it yet.
That is, I think, a valid andnecessary thing to let people
know.
It's a form of empathy that isso important.
And coupling that withreassurance to say, We're going
(36:50):
to get there.
Count on me.
I'm still asking the hardquestions.
I'm still trying to get thedetailed answers.
I don't feel like I have themyet.
That's another form ofreassurance.
And people can validate you andyour role as a leader when you
do those kinds of things.
So this also gets to, I guess,number five on the list.
And number five on the list isto be factual.
(37:11):
And facts are interestingbecause there's bias and there's
perspective built into factsoften.
So questioning the facts isimportant, but don't speculate.
Don't use conjecture.
Don't transmit gossip.
You know, it's this idea ofhere are the facts and here are
(37:33):
the parameters that go aroundit.
It's like a, you know...
I can't even think of the termnow.
I've been out of IT so long, Ican't even think of data
warehouse.
There we go.
The idea of data is stored, butyou also have to have a context
associated with it beingstored.
So you know what the cutoffswere and you know what the
assumptions were.
Otherwise, it's just garbage,right?
(37:54):
It's just stuff.
So being able to put thecontext with whatever the facts
are is important.
But be clear, be specific.
Talk about things that you canmeasure as opposed to like I
said, conjecture or theories orguesses about things.
People don't need guesses.
They need to be able to dependon something.
(38:15):
So that's number five on thelist.
Number six, this speaks to howyou are showing up.
And what I mean by how you areshowing up, it is in your body
language.
It's being hyper aware, beingaware of the way that you're
communicating outside of thewords that you use or the things
that you type.
So imagine somebody with anexasperated roll in their eyes,
(38:40):
kind of a view about something.
Well, that's okay if you'retalking about the perspective
that I don't get it either.
I'm not sure how I feel aboutit.
That's a fine time to have thatsort of a posture and body
language.
But when someone's asking you aspecific question because
they're worried and they'reconcerned and you show
exasperation, they'll give up onyou.
Joe Miller (39:03):
It's a mismatch.
Yeah.
Bob Tipton (39:05):
Yeah, I've just been dehumanized.
Yeah.
So I'm not suggesting that webecome automatrons and just
robotic-like responses topeople.
There is important interactionthat we have with the way we
look back and forth.
And frankly, that's one of thechallenges in this type of a
medium.
You and I would have a betterconversation if we're sitting in
the same room.
(39:25):
It's not bad here.
It's actually pretty good, Ithink.
Joe Miller (39:29):
Yeah.
Bob Tipton (39:29):
This idea that we're social creatures and the way
that we communicate is reallyimportant.
So be hyper aware of the waythat you show up in your
nonverbal communication.
Joe Miller (39:40):
Actually, nonverbal communication is something we
don't give enough attention to.
And I was thinking mismatchwhen you were talking
previously.
And there's this whole conceptof, and knowledge of this can be
manipulated like other things.
So mirroring and those kinds ofthings, adopting another
person's body language, in orderto establish a connection, all
(40:02):
that stuff, you know, notsuggesting that, but there
should be consistency.
So if you, you know, you nodyour head with approval, you
know, shake your head, no, butyou don't go, yes, I agree with
you.
Or I really think I can trustyou and roll your eyes.
One of my bosses called me outone time.
I was in one of his staffmeetings.
He goes, Joe, rolling youreyes.
(40:22):
not helpful in the context of,you know, kind of trying to say
I was supportive of somethingwhen clearly I wasn't, you know?
So yeah, that's how you showup.
That's, that's a powerful one.
There's a lot, there's a lot tothat one.
Bob Tipton (40:37):
There is.
And it's back to what you weresaying earlier, this idea of
consistency, right?
So I'm a very expressiveperson.
I've got a lot of emotion thatI show on my face on a regular
basis.
And I, If you don't haveintegrity inside your head,
you're not gonna have integrityoutside either.
So it's about the way you'retalking to yourself and how you
(40:59):
feel about things yourself thatit gets expressed on the
outside.
So somebody told me a long timeago that I should be less
expressive in the way that Ishow up.
And I thought, that's not gonnago well.
What I need to make sure isthat there's a connection,
there's integrity between whatI'm saying and how I feel.
That's a far better way ofhaving nonverbal work.
Joe Miller (41:23):
Part of leadership is followership too.
We're not all at the top.
So I think to your point, beingexpressive, maybe you don't
understand a point someone ismaking that you're in someone
else's staff meeting or even asa peer.
It's better to say, help mewith this.
I don't understand.
You can make all kinds ofgestures that are consistent
(41:44):
with that.
So that way, when you get tothe point where you go, oh, I
got it.
You know, and I agree now, youknow, that means something.
You know, not only does itdemonstrate that you're engaged
in trying to understand what wastrying to be communicated to
you, but it also understandsthat you got over the threshold
and you reached agreement.
(42:04):
And that means something morethan just, you know.
Bob Tipton (42:08):
Yeah.
Well, years ago, I used to dointeractive workshops around
giving and receiving feedback.
And One of the activities I'dhave people do is they'd sit
back-to-back in their chairs.
They'd actually move theirchairs so they couldn't see the
other person.
And one person's job was totalk about the thing that they
loved doing the most.
Just absolutely fantastic.
(42:28):
They just loved this.
And it's amazing how quicklythey ran out of steam when they
were talking because they weregetting no feedback.
The other person...
Couldn't answer questions.
You know, it was just nothing.
It was somebody present, butthey're not paying any attention
to me.
And then I'd have them turnaround and I'd have somebody not
(42:49):
give any verbal, facial,nothing.
They just blank stare.
And that was worse.
I found people in some casesactually became physical.
They wanted to reach across tothe other person and say, would
you please respond?
React.
Yeah, I mean, sending outemails, text messages, we don't
see the closed loop ofcommunication.
(43:11):
And no wonder we getmisunderstood all the time
because we don't know how peopleare reacting to things anyway.
This idea of being aware.
And then the last one is beingupbeat.
And you may say that soundslike being reassuring.
Well, to me, it's a little bitdifferent.
Reassurance is we're workingthe problem.
We've got the best people onit.
We've got all these thingshappening.
(43:32):
We'll figure it out.
Being upbeat.
is the way you answerquestions.
It's the way that you presentenergy.
So energy is resonant.
Whatever energy you put out isthe energy you get back.
It's like a tuning fork.
If I'm a leader, I'm a bigtuning fork in the room and I
hit myself against the wall andpretty soon my resonant energy
(43:52):
has shown up with everybody.
So if I show up in a meeting,how's it going?
Well, it's still early.
How's your day going?
Well, it's Monday.
You know, the responses thatpeople often have that are just
simply automatic.
How's your day going?
Well, pretty good day today.
You know, I'm the sun shining.
It's a beautiful day here inDenver.
(44:13):
That's a question you asked mewhen we first saw each other.
You know, it's this idea that Ican choose to show up with
energy of any kind.
Most of the time, not always.
There's some situations likewith my daughter where I was
very concerned and my energy wasclearly in that place.
But that's not all the time,Joe.
Some people think that that isdeceptive.
(44:37):
I think it's helpful.
It's the idea that, okay, yeah,maybe things are hard right
now, but we have a choice abouthow we respond to hard things.
And going back to the thirdquestion that I had, the three
big questions in the firstinstallment...
Who lives, who dies, and why?
Well, the writer of the book,Deep Survival, one of the
(44:58):
primary correlating factors towhether you're going to make it
or not is the belief that youwill.
I'm thinking of Eeyore rightnow.
Well, okay.
Yeah, it's always something.
You know, the people in yourlife that show up like Eeyore,
they tend to feel a little bitlike energy vampires.
They just suck the energy outof the room.
Joe Miller (45:18):
Yeah.
And in particular, thinking ofa...
of leaders.
Thinking about the impact ofhow you show up in this way is
huge.
And so you have aresponsibility.
It's important to understandthe impact you have on the rest
of the people you are caringfor.
Bob Tipton (45:39):
Yes.
And this is something I don'tthink is taught enough in
leadership school.
There's a lot of process andtools and methodologies and so
on.
I think it's just as or moreimportant in terms of how you
show up.
The change that can happeninside of an organization is
(45:59):
remarkable.
You know, the work that I doprofessionally is all around
transformation.
It's all around radical change.
Organizations that are tryingto go someplace big or different
or they're trying to solvechallenging, hairy things.
And the requirement of gettingthere is frightening for a lot
of people because you're givingup The known, you're going from
(46:21):
order to disorder to reorder, aswe talked about in the
beginning.
And that's frightening for alot of people.
If you have someone who isleading you through that process
that sounds like Eeyore, you'redoomed.
Joe Miller (46:34):
It's not the kind of leader you want to follow,
right?
Bob Tipton (46:36):
No, it's just not going to work.
Nor is the toxic positivity.
You know, I think of whateverhis name was.
He lived in the van down by theriver.
Do you remember the ChrisFarley character?
Yeah.
I don't remember his name now.
You know, there's toxic.
Joe Miller (46:52):
Motivation likes Bert.
Bob Tipton (46:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, you don't want that either.
You want something that isupbeat.
It's like, yeah, this is hard.
And some of it doesn't make anysense.
And it's going to bechallenging for a while.
And we can do this.
Yeah.
In fact, you are doing this.
Joe Miller (47:12):
It's not denying the reality that people see.
I think that's an importantthing to consider.
It's not trying to push away ordeny the challenge, the
emotion.
People are picking up thereality.
It's basically guiding andleading people through it in the
most positive way.
And sometimes, back to yourexample from previous episode
(47:35):
about crisis on an airline thatmight be going down.
Certain situations require amore expedient response, right?
But in all situations, havingthe perspective to know what
type response is appropriate asa leader is important.
(47:56):
But going through thesechallenging times, boy, I think
one of the biggest mistakes I dosee is that Leaders tend to
want to push away anything thatcauses friction for them to take
people down that hallway ofchange as quickly and
expediently as possible.
Bob Tipton (48:15):
Which is ultimately self-defeating.
Yeah.
Because the truisms of my lineof work are people don't resist
change.
They resist being changedwithout their permission.
Joe Miller (48:26):
That was the snippet I was trying to remember
earlier from one of our earliestepisodes several years ago.
Yeah, that's a powerfulstatement.
Say that again, Bob.
Bob Tipton (48:38):
People don't resist change.
They resist being changedwithout their permission,
without their participation.
And then Margaret Wheatley,another visionary, probably 30
years ago, said people supportwhat they create.
And then she went on to stateit even more emphatically.
Oh, wait, people only supportwhat they create.
(48:58):
So...
Yeah, getting out of a plane, Idon't have a lot of time to get
buy-in on behalf of people.
Either they do or they don't,but they can participate by
helping others get out of aplane.
That is a rare circumstance.
Most transformational changedoesn't feel like a plane crash.
Most of it feels like a treelosing its leaves and then
(49:22):
growing them back or acaterpillar becoming a
butterfly.
There is some intermediatestage that you go through And
having a leader be able to knowwhat people might be feeling,
how to best lead them throughthat, how to communicate
effectively.
I guess that's the bottom linefor this whole thing as we talk
about it.
The three hours we've beentogether talking about the
(49:43):
subject is it's important forleaders to be able to lead
people someplace where maybethey haven't gone themselves.
Others haven't gone.
A leader needs to have gonethere in order to effectively
lead people through theirjourney.
And that's why I worry about25-year-old vice presidents.
Right.
You know, they just don't havethe life experience to go along
(50:04):
with their book knowledge, sothey don't have wisdom.
What they have instead istheory.
Joe Miller (50:09):
Yeah.
Full of what they call, as theysay, vin and vigor.
Is that right?
Bob Tipton (50:15):
Something like that,
Joe Miller (50:16):
yeah.
But, you know, hey, I've hadthe privilege of spending these
three hours talking throughthese things with you.
Kind of one-on-one.
We had Mike on the last episodewith us, Mike Peterson.
But let's pivot now, if it'sokay, and talk about the webinar
and the format for the webinar.
I mean, you'll be touching onthese same points, I think, in
the webinar.
This is intended to have alittle interaction beforehand.
(50:38):
But what's that experience likefor folks who want to join and
then how do they join?
I think I can easily drop theweb link in the bottom for
registration.
Bob Tipton (50:47):
That's easy.
Joe Miller (50:48):
Tell us about that.
Bob Tipton (50:50):
Well, the experience is designed to be efficient in
use of our time.
So it's not three hours long.
It's designed to be 45, 50minutes of content and then
live.
All of the sessions are live.
None of it's prerecorded.
So if you have a specificquestion or an observation or a
thought, you can drop it intothe Q&A.
And then I'll take that up atthe end.
(51:12):
And there's some reallyfascinating questions that are
coming forward.
Most of it have to do with someform of resistance, some form
of organizational bias, someleadership immaturity.
But we'll talk about specificsituations.
And I'll also have visuals, soyou don't have to imagine what
I'm talking about.
I'll have some visuals that youcan actually use.
(51:32):
And then sending along copiesof the slides, having you be
able to reference it later on,and having a a connection if you
want to reach out when it comesto additional perspectives or
thoughts.
I welcome that.
I encourage that.
So the experience is designedto be efficient, hard-hitting,
factual.
I move along quickly.
(51:52):
But then also there'sopportunity for it to be
interactive because all thesessions are live.
Joe Miller (51:59):
Yeah, and this is what you've been doing, Team
Tipton's been doing, and whatyou've been doing for years now.
Oh,
Bob Tipton (52:07):
yeah.
Back in the day, I remembersitting in my walk-in closet in
my master bedroom doing webinarsbecause that was the only quiet
place in the whole house.
The sound booth.
Yeah, and trying to imagine theaudience that was there.
You know, it's a good thingthat's happened with all these
virtual meetings.
Dogs bark, you know, thingshappen.
(52:27):
You get network glitches.
We're a lot more forgiving withthe technology than we used to
be years ago.
But yeah, I've been...
providing this type of approachfor many, many, many.
Joe Miller (52:40):
And obviously for years, people have been going
through changes like this, butit just seems like as we first
talked about having theseepisodes with you on Titans,
boy, it just seems like thingshave ramped up in the past five
years, six years, maybe twoyears.
So, I mean, I'm wondering, youknow, over the arc of the period
of time, has there been anyshifts or differences?
(53:02):
Have you refined the yourteaching and your tools in
recent years, or has it been alot of what was always there?
Just as a curiosity.
Bob Tipton (53:12):
No, I think there's a lot of, that's a great
question.
We have moved to inflectionpoints much more rapidly with
the advent of certainly theinternet, but social media, the
ability for communication tomake it around the world in
seconds that used to take yearsin order for things to happen.
Also, the lack of curiosity andpeople's willingness to
(53:33):
voluntarily be part of analgorithm or an echo chamber.
It's been more and moredifficult to get people to move
off of their positions.
The curiosity is not nearly asstrong as it used to be and the
sense of questioning things.
Along with that, there's been adestruction in our belief when
it comes to certaininstitutions.
(53:55):
And it's just all of it.
added together has moved us toa point where we are right now.
Joe Miller (54:01):
Yeah, it just seems like the amplitude has turned up
much, much higher.
Bob Tipton (54:07):
Yes, and I remember 20 years ago working to support
a marketing organization withmanipulating behaviors and
knowing exactly what peoplewould do and say.
20 years ago, we've become somuch better at that.
And now trying to breakthrough, we need sensational
information to get some sort ofa significant response to
(54:29):
things.
So it's like we're beingadrenalized constantly.
Everything that we hear has gotsome significant issue
associated with it.
Joe Miller (54:38):
I heard something today.
I was consuming some contentwhere the individual said that
we have become the product ofour reaction has become the
product to monetize, right?
Which to me was, I mean, I kindof knew it, but to have it
called out like that was justlike, whoa, that is so true.
(54:59):
And so there is the wholecontrol conspiracy thing of
messaging, but there's also theability to get our eyeballs on
certain messages can bemonetized, right?
Bob Tipton (55:13):
It is all the time.
It has been for years.
That's where influencers maketheir money.
Joe Miller (55:16):
Yeah.
Bob Tipton (55:17):
It's a
Joe Miller (55:18):
number
Bob Tipton (55:18):
of people hear or see them do or say something.
I don't know what history willsay a thousand years from now
when we look back on this timeperiod with influencers making
millions of dollars just simplyby providing content.
But you're absolutely right,Joe.
Our reactions have become theproduct.
And certain reactions are farmore valuable than others.
(55:41):
So the idea, going all the wayback to the first episode that
we had, is, is this actuallyreal?
The simple question ofquestioning the question,
questioning the assumption,questioning the platform of what
somebody's trying to putforward, that diffuses what
you're describing.
(56:02):
It's this suffering in advancedynamic.
One more time.
Somebody said something, andI'm worrying about it.
Well, is it even real?
Taken to an extreme, sufferingin advance becomes premeditated
bitterness.
I'm already pissed off aboutsomething that hasn't even
happened yet.
And we live in this adrenalizedform that people prey on.
Joe Miller (56:23):
And we wonder why our cortisol levels are driven
through the roof, and we havehealth consequences because of
that as well.
Bob Tipton (56:31):
All of that.
Joe Miller (56:32):
So
Bob Tipton (56:33):
if there's anything that I've learned that's
different now is it's so muchmore important for self-care,
for awareness, for the abilityto sort through and decide,
discern whether something isreal or not real.
And does it belong to me or notbelong to me?
We're asked to pick up loadsall the time.
So you asked if things aredifferent now?
(56:54):
Yeah.
We're so overscheduled.
We have so many things in ourlife that we are asked to pay
attention to.
I think here's one of theradical pieces of advice I give
to leaders on a regular basis istake all of the meetings off of
your calendar, the ones thatyou're able to.
Take them all off and then addback meetings based upon value.
(57:14):
Add attendees based uponbenefit.
It's amazing how much time justrushes back into your schedule
because you're not just holdingmeetings for some historical
purpose that doesn't matteranymore.
That's a topic for anotherconversation.
Joe Miller (57:27):
Yeah, that's a good one.
That's a good one.
Just a closing thought for mewould be if you're a leader and
you really want to stand out andstand out in a very positive
way, put into practice some ofthese positive things that Bob
has gone through because youwill be differentiated
immediately.
And Everyone who is looking toyou, the people you want to be
(57:52):
on your team, people you want tofollow you, will come to you
quickly and enthusiasticallybecause you're being empathetic
and truthful.
You're showing up.
You're being accessible whenneeded.
All those things are really thethings that matter.
So people are looking for thatright now, and they're
(58:12):
unfortunately not finding enoughof it.
So Bob, I want to thank you forcoming on and bringing this,
I'll call it teaching to usbecause that's what it is.
And I want to encourageeveryone who's listening in
who's hung in here this long toplease check out the link for
the registration, the webinarfor Bob.
(58:33):
He could be doing a lot ofother things, but he's
passionate about this wholetopic and the importance right
now.
So any closing thoughts fromyou, Bob?
Bob Tipton (58:44):
I just want to say thank you to you, Joe.
You bet.
For your wisdom, your vision,your leadership to bring lots of
topics and perspectives aroundleadership and helping people be
as effective as they possiblycan.
Because the world does need asmany great leaders as it can
have.
There's no limit to the numberof great leaders that we can
(59:07):
have on Earth, and we need moreand more of them all the time.
So thank you for the chance tobe with you, and I appreciate
what you do.
Joe Miller (59:14):
You bet, Bob.
Till next time.
All right.
Take care.
Hey, thanks for joining metoday on Titans of Transition.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Please check the show notes foradditional information.
Hey, welcome back.
I'm really glad to pick up onthis third session, really
focusing on leading throughradical change.
Now, we talked about, you know,is it real?
You know, the messaging we'regetting, what we're interpreting
through the world and all thedifferent channels to us, being
more mindful.
Today, the focus is really onleaders and leadership.
Bob Tipton (00:27):
Yeah, yeah, it's about leadership behaviors that
are important during times ofradical change.
And, you know, one of thethings to note, well, touch base
on this as we get closer to theend, but radical change, as we
talked about in the firstepisode, is necessary.
It is something that happens.
There's no just simply stoppingit from happening.
(00:49):
And in some situations, it'sreally beneficial.
So this idea of order,disorder, reorder is nothing to
be feared or pushed away.
Instead, as leaders, it'sreally important for us to be
able to be good at it as much aspossible, recognizing that
Often we're affected by it asmuch or more than those that
(01:09):
we're leading.
So there's a little bit ofcompartmentalization that's
important.
And I'll talk about some ofthat as we get into the
individual behaviors.
But it's nothing to be afraidof.
It's something to be good at.
And that's what I want to tryto discuss through in this final
episode.
How do we get good at doingthese kinds of things?
And I put things into twodifferent categories.
(01:31):
There's five differentleadership behaviors we
absolutely do not need.
And I'd like to talk aboutthem, but unfortunately, they
show up a lot.
And then there's sevenleadership behaviors that I
think are really important aswe're dealing with
transformation or radicalchange.
So for a moment, as leaders,it's very important to think
about who we're leading.
George Patton, General GeorgePatton, Second World War, he had
(01:54):
one of my favorite quotes,although we didn't have YouTube
back then, so we can't provethat he said that.
But He said, as a leader, everynow and then you have to turn
around and see if people arestill following you.
That's good.
Yeah, we can get way ahead ofthe people that we're leading
and we can lose them.
And at that point, oureffectiveness is lost.
(02:16):
So a lot of this idea thatthese behaviors I'm talking
about is to keep people engagedand keep them connected and
making sure that we actuallyhave some followers as we go
forward.
So I don't know, Joe, I'm sureyou've experienced situations in
your career where you wereasked to do something and you
(02:39):
knew about it weeks or months inadvance.
And then it's a matter ofletting people know.
And then some of us aresurprised that they're taking it
the way that they did, right?
Joe Miller (02:49):
Yeah.
You know, early in my career, Iremember thinking more about
the outcomes that I wanted and
Bob Tipton (02:55):
And
Joe Miller (02:55):
then it was sort of very simplistic about, oh, I
know I need to communicate and Ineed to be clear.
One of our previous episodes,you talked about leaders, you
know, assuming that everyone hassigned on for the change.
I don't remember the exactlittle snippet you had there,
but that was an important piece.
Bob Tipton (03:16):
Yeah, not everybody wants to be part of what's going
on.
It may have been the stages orsteps in transformational
change.
There's an opportunity.
Right.
Yes, exactly.
Joe Miller (03:37):
Yeah, that really does tie back to this notion of,
is there anybody behind me?
Right?
And if they're not, why aren'tthey there?
Bob Tipton (03:47):
Yep.
How did I lose them?
Well...
We lose them with these fivebehaviors that really aren't
helpful.
So I want to start with atleast, I'll start with the first
one for sure.
And then we'll talk about theother four as we go.
But the first one that is just,it's never okay, but it's
definitely not okay during timesof uncertainty and
transformation.
(04:08):
And that's gaslighting.
And What I find a lot in socialmedia and what I find on news,
quote unquote, people aresaying, I didn't say that.
That's not what I meant.
Why are you being so sensitive?
It's an attempt to have peoplequestion whether they actually
heard things correctly and takento an extreme.
It can be a form of bullying.
(04:29):
Where...
You're trying to hold somebodyaccountable or trying to get
clarifying questions surroundingsome circumstance or situation,
and they wind up gaslightingyou.
It's designed to have youquestion your own sanity.
And like I said, it's neverokay.
To me, it's an example of verylow personal accountability,
(04:49):
very thin skin.
People are really concernedabout how they might look.
They can't be held accountableto anything.
So they just try to make theother person feel like they're
nuts because they didn't hearsomething like that.
So I don't know if you remembera time, I remember a time where
I was being gaslit by myleaders in an organization and
it felt terrible.
Joe Miller (05:12):
Yeah.
Bob Tipton (05:13):
So the first night I went back and I thought, did I
really miss this?
Did I hear it incorrectly?
And then I went back through mynotes and emails and all that.
And I said, no, that's whatthey did.
So how quickly a leader losestheir integrity, loses their
trust and This is the peoplefollowing them if they are
(05:33):
gaslighting people.
Joe Miller (05:35):
It's one of those situations in an organization
that it starts with oneindividual or one or two doing
the gaslighting and it becomesalmost like a virus that the
other people are just repeatingthe same information and not
realizing there's no anchor backto truth there.
Bob Tipton (06:00):
Yeah, it's a lot easier to just simply repeat
something than it is to becurious to find out about the
source.
You know, that's anotherdynamic we talked about in the
first session, that is justbeing in an echo chamber.
If you don't know you're beinggaslit, it's a mechanism to keep
you in your echo chamber.
It's like, oh, I just have tokeep listening to whatever this
leader is telling me becausethat's the source of all things
(06:23):
that are true.
And I think we have a real lackof curiosity here.
in our society.
We have so much going on.
We are so overwhelmed withthings.
We just tend to accept thingsand move on.
So yeah, one more time, no onesaid the line, Luke, I am your
father.
And anyone who tries toconvince you of that is just,
(06:45):
they're gaslighting you.
It's not true.
So that leads into the secondbehavior that we really don't
need, leadership behavior duringtimes of uncertainty.
And I have a story that I wantto tell about this one.
So it's the idea of ablamestorming, trying to assign
blame to someone else.
So finger pointing, you know,it's someone else that did this.
(07:08):
So the story goes like this.
I was working with a publicschool district.
I won't tell you where,obviously, because it's not a
really positive story about herdistrict.
They had serious, seriousacademic problems.
In fact, 18% of fifth graderswere reading at grade level,
1.8%.
And in fifth grade, do you wantthat to be 90 or higher?
(07:31):
Because up until third grade,you learn to read.
And after third grade, you readto learn.
So the prediction for theacademic success of kids in the
school district was reallyterrible.
And I scheduled, for the firsttime ever, I've actually never
heard of anything like this witha public school district
anywhere.
I had a three evening scheduledback to back to back with the
(07:56):
senior leadership and the schoolboard in the same room.
I have never heard of thatbefore or since.
It probably has happenedsomewhere, but it took until the
middle of the third night, themiddle of the third night.
So we're talking seven hours ofbeing with this group for them
to finally say yes to thequestion when I asked them.
Do you own the path forwardtogether?
(08:17):
back to this idea ofaccountability, Joe, if I had
one thing that I would injectinto humanity, it would be
(08:38):
personal accountability.
I think the world would besubstantially different if we
all operated from a perspectiveof personal accountability.
So this bling storming isuseless.
It provides no value.
All it does is try to makeothers look bad and make you not
look bad.
It's the equivalent of puttingin your Teflon clothes.
(08:59):
Nothing sticks to you.
Joe Miller (09:01):
So what do you mean by brainstorming?
Maybe you can give an example.
Bob Tipton (09:04):
Well, it's a play on words.
It's brainstorming versusblamestorming.
So it's this idea of I spend alot of time and energy trying to
find somebody else to blame.
Joe Miller (09:14):
Okay.
Bob Tipton (09:16):
That's the idea.
I see.
I didn't come up with the term.
Somebody did years and yearsago, but I've sort of glommed on
to it because I like the way itfeels, this idea of
blamestorming.
Okay.
I don't know if you've everbeen in a circumstance where
you've asked somebody and theyjust simply point at somebody
else and say it's their fault.
Joe Miller (09:36):
Oh, yeah.
And I think even, it's a littlebit nuanced, but even watching
behaviors at senior leadershiplevels and understanding they're
positioning themselves fordeniability.
You know, they're wanting tomake sure that nothing can come
(09:57):
back on them.
So it's sort of a proactivenon-accountability stance.
And that actually drives a lotof behaviors.
Bob Tipton (10:07):
It does.
You know, Geico made a wholecommercial about that.
It was a group of people aroundthe table.
They have lunch or dinner orsomething.
There was an alligator.
that was at the table andcouldn't reach the check, you
know, because of tiny littlearms.
I can't reach the check.
It's this learned helplessnessthat there's no way that they
(10:27):
can do what they need to do.
So, you know, the term isplausible deniability.
It's all about trying to find away that it doesn't come back
on them.
But that happens a lot inpolitical discourse.
I don't care You know, we'vereally, I think, done a good job
here staying out of anyparticular ideology or
perspective because it doesn'tmatter.
(10:48):
All of them do it.
And that's kind of the thirdleadership behavior that we
don't need ever.
It's deflection.
So I get frustrated trying toget information about policy
perspectives or stances when itcomes to those that are making
(11:08):
policy that are looking to beelected to whatever
organization.
role, I don't care, citycouncil all the way up to
president of the United States,it doesn't matter to me.
But trying to get a straightanswer to a straight question,
isn't it fascinating how thepolitical candidate, I don't
care who they are, they all, youknow, they might give a
blustering sort of two or threesecond kind of thing and then
(11:29):
immediately go back to theirtalking points and their
platform.
They don't answer the question.
Slippery is the word
Joe Miller (11:35):
that comes to mind.
Bob Tipton (11:38):
Yeah, lip service, it's I'm going to act like I'm
going to answer your questionand I just don't.
And in times of radical change,in times of transformation,
that is so frustrating.
It's like all I want is ananswer to the question that I'm
asking.
Going back to what we talkedabout in the second installment,
I want to know something that'srelevant to me and I want you
(12:00):
to communicate it in a way thatI find accessible, right?
and valuable.
I want you to be able tosatisfy my question, why?
And when you keep going back toyour talking points, think
about this, massiverestructuring, job loss,
mergers, acquisitions, and allwe get from people is
(12:20):
deflection.
Again, immature leaders, and Ihate to sound judgmental, but
I'm going to sound judgmentalfor just a minute.
They depend upon talkingpoints, and that's it.
It's not a matter of givingcontext or Well,
Joe Miller (12:36):
it's a defensive strategy to make sure that they
don't expose true accountabilityor expose a potential chink in
their armor, so to
Bob Tipton (12:46):
speak.
Yeah, it's this idea.
I don't know if you've heard ofBrene Brown.
Yeah,
Joe Miller (12:53):
sure.
Bob Tipton (12:53):
Okay, so Brene Brown wrote a book called Daring
Greatly.
It's a book my daughter gaveme.
I hated it, and I loved it, andI hated it.
It was one of the books Icouldn't pick up, and I couldn't
sell.
It just really drove me nuts.
But one of the most importantmessages in that book is around
the courage to be vulnerable.
And deflection is the oppositeof that.
There is no desire, no abilityactually to be vulnerable if
(13:18):
you're constantly deflecting.
So we can see right through it.
It's one of the fastest waysthat we can just simply lose
faith in those that we expect tolead us.
if we're not getting straightanswers as to straight
questions.
So the fourth behavior that wedo not need from leaders during
times of radical change ortransformation has to do with,
it's sort of a cousin that laststoo, but it's whataboutisms.
(13:42):
What I mean by whataboutisms,it's this idea that, well,
so-and-so is behaving badly.
Joe Miller (13:47):
So why can't I?
Why can't I?
Yeah.
Bob Tipton (13:52):
Why are you picking on me?
Why are you picking on me?
That's right.
Everybody's behaving badly.
Everybody's broken.
It's like, stop that.
It's not helpful when you'resaying that, what about
so-and-so?
So it's the story of, well,so-and-so's parents let them
have ice cream before dinner.
(14:12):
It's like, well, do they callme mom or dad?
Is that the relationship theyhave?
So it's trying to justify yourown poor choices, your own bad
behavior, own lack ofaccountability, et cetera, by
pointing at somebody else.
And there are so many examplesin politics.
I can't bring them up becauseit points to one viewpoint or
(14:35):
another, but it's constant inthat world to say, well, what
about so-and-so?
Joe Miller (14:41):
Well, I mean, there's examples from children,
right?
I mean, that's where you oftensee it show up.
Why am I getting in troublewhen Johnny over here just did
that and you didn't call themout, mom or dad?
So it starts at an early age.
Bob Tipton (14:58):
Yeah, and the example that you used there,
it's just a very immature thing.
Again, it's leaders that don'thave confidence, leaders that
are trying to manipulate,leaders that are not wanting to
be vulnerable, and that's justnot helpful.
I don't think it's helpfulever, but it's especially not
helpful when there's significantuncertainty.
(15:19):
People just want answers toquestions.
So we'll dispense with thefive, with the fifth one here.
And the fifth one has to dowith self-aggrandizement.
And if you can imagine apicture of someone sitting on a
throne with a crown and ascepter, And what they've done
is they've drawn all authorityto themselves.
(15:40):
I'm large and I'm in charge andnobody gets to make decisions
without my blessing.
You know, it's this idea thatthey are the hub to all the
spokes.
And taken to an extreme, it canfeel like a dictatorship where
there is no ability to disagreeor to ask clarifying questions.
(16:01):
You're looked at as weak.
or looked at as ineffective ifyou're just trying to ask why.
And it's just, you'redismissed, you're dehumanized,
you're invalidated becausethere's one authority figure
that is central to everything.
That's a lot of pressure forthat person to put themselves
into that role because nobody isempowered to make any decisions
(16:23):
at all.
And ultimately, this is wherecultures that depend upon a
single leader fall apart.
They all fall apart at somepoint.
They all have in history, ifyou go back and follow it,
because the organization isn'tmaking decisions.
It's depending upon that singleself-aggrandizing leader to
(16:44):
make all the decisions for them,to establish all the policies
and perspectives.
So during times of radicalchange, boy, I hope that person
never sleeps.
I hope that person has anopen-door policy where they can
talk to everybody all the time.
Because organizationalparalysis happens when people
aren't empowered to be able tomake decisions.
Joe Miller (17:06):
That's a point struck home just then because,
you know, a healthy organizationfosters personal
responsibility.
It fosters people takingactions.
It disrupts productivity.
It disrupts everything, really.
You become completely dependentupon people.
(17:26):
leader who has enthronedthemselves to be the arbiter of
all truth and all direction theneverybody else becomes you know
mindless and they just sit insort of this zone of inaction
and indecision
Bob Tipton (17:43):
yeah and learned helplessness just
Joe Miller (17:45):
learned helplessness that's kind of a that was what
i was looking for thanks bob
Bob Tipton (17:49):
oh it's just rampant yeah because of two things.
One, I have no authority tomake any decisions, so I'm not
going to.
Or I tried it once and I got myhead handed to me, so I'm not
going to ever do that again.
It becomes the classicbureaucracy that we see at the
Department of Motor Vehicle,which is unfair.
(18:09):
There are a lot of Departmentof Motor Vehicles here in the
state of Colorado that operatevery efficiently.
They are excellentorganizations when it comes to
productivity, but the stereotypeis, That's the place to go for
things that are slow and peopledon't care.
I think there was another maybeGeico commercial that had
sloths at the customer servicedesk.
(18:31):
I remember that.
They were laughing very, very
Joe Miller (18:35):
slowly.
That's hilarious.
Yeah, that's a good example.
Bob Tipton (18:39):
That's why those commercials are funny is because
there's a level of truth that'sin them that's based typically
in something that is historic oris a pure stereotype.
So...
Taken in aggregate, these fivebehaviors, we see them way too
frequently inside oforganizations, especially those
that are trying to controleverything associated with the
(19:02):
transformation or the radicalchange.
Back to what we talked about inrelevance theory in the second
installment, it's not up to usas the communicator to decide
what's relevant.
The listener or the reader isthe one that gets to decide
what's relevant.
And if all we're doing isdeflecting and blaming and doing
whataboutisms and drawing allauthority to ourselves, people
(19:23):
aren't satisfied at all.
So here's another dynamic thathappens with these five
behaviors that I think mostpeople undervalue or
underprioritize.
When people don't feel likethey're being heard, they're
being valued, they're Those thatcan leave the organization
first are the ones that do.
The ones that are the mostmarketable, that have the best
(19:46):
skills, the best network, thebest opportunity to move on,
those are the people that leavefirst.
So you've probably seen them,the different surveys that are
out there.
Every survey I've seen over thelast, I don't know, my entire
career, I guess, it's eithernumber one, number two, or
number three reason why peopleleave an organization is because
(20:06):
of a poor supervisor.
Yep.
So can we dispense with thefive that we shouldn't do and
talk about the five, I'm sorry,the seven that we should?
Joe Miller (20:14):
Maybe we can just dwell on what you shouldn't do a
little bit and how to catchyourself when you may fall into
these patterns.
Because obviously everyonewho's on is looking to improve
themselves, but sometimes it'sgood to dwell on, are there some
signals that I can payattention to?
You kind of hinted at one, noone's following me, that may
(20:36):
point to a number of these, butI'm wondering, when I find
myself saying this, or when Ifind myself behaving in this
manner, maybe it's somethingthat falls into one of these
five.
Bob Tipton (20:48):
Yeah, I think that there's a real red flag, and
that is when people get quiet,when they quit talking, when
they quit...
Joe Miller (20:56):
Not getting anything back?
Right.
That's another way of, they'renot following me.
They're not signed on.
Right.
Bob Tipton (21:04):
They don't care.
They've checked out or theydon't trust what you're saying.
When no one's asking anyquestions, when nobody is
looking for clarification, whenno one is challenging you, you
know, I go back years and yearsand years ago.
I may have used this in ourfirst session.
I don't know.
But there are different rolesthat we play.
(21:26):
The group dynamics, you know,studying communications are
different groups.
And there's this role called acentral negative role.
And a central negative issomeone that has the best
interest for the organization atheart, but they think they can
do your job as well or betterthan you can.
And so it's not self-serving intheir negativity.
It's something they're tryingto make better for the
organization, but they'llquestion you constantly.
(21:48):
And when that person stopsquestioning you, you've got real
problems.
They've given up.
Yep.
Anyway, years ago, I hadsomeone in my organization.
I was a very new manager.
And she would just simplyquestion everything I said in
staff meetings.
It was frustrating.
And after I went through two orthree of those, I said, there's
(22:08):
got to be a better way.
So what I did was I reached outto her ahead of time and I went
over the agenda with her and wetalked about all the points
that I was wanting to make anddiscussion items.
And the first meeting we hadafter that, the staff sat open
mouth staring at both of usbecause there was no contention.
Joe Miller (22:27):
Yeah.
Bob Tipton (22:27):
We had reached some level of understanding to agree
or not agree, but we hadconversation ahead of time.
So it wasn't this challenging,conflict-filled sort of a
situation.
So anyway, if no one ischallenging you or everyone
starts giving you yes sir, nosir, yes ma'am, no ma'am kind of
(22:48):
answers to things, somewhereyou're demonstrating one of
these five or multiples of thesefive behaviors that are just
not helpful.
Joe Miller (22:56):
The other thing I was thinking about, I'm just
curious what your response wouldbe to this.
Oftentimes in leadership roles,you're asked to support a
certain position that thecompany is putting forth in
regards to a change or astrategy.
And you want to be able to besupportive as a new manager,
(23:17):
certainly.
But I found myself beingcrosswise sometimes.
In my team meetings, I took therisk.
I'll put it this way.
of just stating where I was atwith that and just put it on the
table saying, this is what thecompany's doing.
This is the rationale.
Now, I'll be honest with you.
(23:38):
It's kind of what I said.
I'm not 100% sure about thismyself, but it's important for
us all to go forward.
You know, some kind of languagelike that, but just giving a
hint of transparency that itkind of falls into sort of the
gaslighting thing a little bitin that I don't want to be just
part of that repeating crowdthat's not processing.
(24:01):
Maybe just saying, yeah, I'mstruggling with connecting all
the dots here as well.
And I know this is hard.
And, you know, just showingsome empathy.
I don't know.
What do you think of that?
Bob Tipton (24:15):
Well, that's one of the seven behaviors that I think
is really...
Joe Miller (24:20):
Okay.
Bob Tipton (24:21):
Yeah.
Joe Miller (24:21):
I don't know what your seven are yet.
Bob Tipton (24:23):
Yeah.
It's a great segue.
Go ahead.
So, yeah, I'll jump into thatone first.
Transparency is something thatpeople know that they're in the
presence of or know they're notin the presence of.
They either trust it or theydon't trust it.
And some people think, well, Ihave to be careful about being
transparent.
(24:43):
No, you need to be specificabout being transparent.
So transparency, there arethings that we can talk about
and there are things that wecannot talk about.
and being very clear about thedistinction for others about
which is which.
There's certain things I cannottalk about, please don't ask me
anymore.
I have no answers that I canshare with you and I won't for,
(25:06):
and that gets into another oneof the behaviors, but I can't
right now.
These are the things I can talkabout and I'm gonna speak
freely about them.
So transparency is the ideathat what happens, this is one
of these other behaviors, whenyou know you're not being
transparent, people feel thatyou're you know the answer
you're just not sharing it youcan't trust me with the answer
(25:28):
you're just not sharing ityou're hiding something and when
you're transparent about whatyou can and can't say people
have that feeling sort ofdissipate they say okay thank
you for letting me know what i ihave questions about these
things so that's transparency ithas a cousin and the cousin is
(25:50):
being forthright or beingforthcoming and it's interesting
that we can tell the truthwithout being forthcoming
whereas i can tell the truth butnot the whole truth the idea
about being forthcoming is iwill create oh here's a tangible
example of being forthcomingyou'll create a frequently asked
questions database that'scomprehensive it's thorough and
(26:13):
And this idea of forthcomingnessis I'm going to anticipate in
advance, which I guess isredundant, I'm going to
anticipate the questions thatyou may ask, and I'll come up
with answers to those ahead oftime.
You know, FAQ databases thatare rich and robust, they start
with some pre-populated answersto questions that nobody really
has asked.
The better ones are those whereyou try to look over the hills
(26:36):
and around the corner for othersto say what might they want to
know.
And then as real questions arebeing asked, you populate the
database with those.
So I find way too frequentlythat people look at FAQs as
being a waste of time.
I don't want to take the timeahead of time to create
something that might help peopleunderstand what's coming.
(26:57):
We just don't have time.
We have to move.
Well, back to the conversationabout all of this.
During times of uncertainty,people have an internal timer
inside of their head.
They will wait, wait, Wait.
And then after that, they startmaking up their own stories.
And I think I mentioned thisbefore.
The stories are alwaystragedies.
(27:17):
They're never comedies.
They always put themselves in astarring role of the tragedy.
So it's like when somebody usedto driving with my wife and
somebody would cut me off, I'draise my hands and I'd yell at
them.
And she said, of course, Bob,they did that to you personally.
It was something they didespecially to make you angry.
And it brought me right back toreality to say, no, they either
(27:38):
didn't see me, they didn'tcare, they've got some emergency
going on.
But no, they didn't do it tome.
So this idea of forthcomingnessis necessary.
This making sense?
Joe Miller (27:50):
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
Bob Tipton (27:53):
Yeah.
So those two are critical whenit comes to communication, being
transparent and beingforthcoming.
To stop the process of peoplemaking up their own stories or
believing that you're hidingsomething.
The third behavior that is soimportant has to do with
accessibility.
And this was something that wasa mess during COVID.
(28:16):
I always like to use that as anexample because we lived
through it, all of us, in someform or another.
How do people know how to get ahold of you?
Do you respond when they reachout to you?
Do you have a...
I don't know.
Some organizations come up witha key word that they use that
otherwise wouldn't be in anormal everyday conversation,
(28:36):
like pomegranate.
Let's use that one.
I don't know how often you usethe word pomegranate, but
probably virtually never duringa year.
Someone puts in the messagesubject line for an email,
pomegranate, it's like, I needto drop everything and pay
attention to this, right?
So do you have office hours?
Do you have specific channelsof communication where you will
(29:00):
respond sooner?
Do people know how and when toget a hold of you?
Or does it come back to, I knowwe talked about this before,
this idea of I'm busy.
You put up the shield, you putup the wall to say, don't try to
reach me because I'm busy.
Well, that's not what our staffneed during times of radical
change.
They need to feel like they canreach us.
(29:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Recognizing that we may begoing through this change
ourselves, maybe our job is atrisk.
Maybe our department is beingeliminated.
Maybe we are going through amerger or acquisition as a
leader.
Guess what?
Leadership has a specialrequirement for us to be able to
(29:42):
compartmentalize some of thatand help those that we're
leading.
So accessibility is critical.
Joe Miller (29:47):
Yeah, that's an interesting one because you
think, well, That's a littleobscure or that's a little, I
wouldn't have predicted that,but it actually is extremely
important.
Bob Tipton (29:59):
Yeah.
I'll give you an example.
Last week, I was in a meetingwith a client.
I was actually sharing mynavigating times of radical
change presentation, but it waslive.
It wasn't in a webinar form.
So I had 17, 18 leaders andorganization that were sitting
(30:20):
and listening to me.
And about, you know, the wholewebinar lasts about 50 minutes.
It was about minute 45 and myphone started blowing up.
It just, the text messages andphone messages, something was
going on with my youngerdaughter.
And in the middle of mypresentation with the leadership
group, I had to stop.
(30:41):
I said, I need to stop.
My phone was blowing up.
I have, uh, a requirement in mylife that I've established that
if I'm trying to be reached byone of my children or
grandchildren, I'm going to stopwhat I'm doing and find out
what it was.
So I told them that.
They were gracious.
I had them sort of talk while Ileft the room.
Well, my daughter was in theemergency room with stroke-like
(31:01):
symptoms.
I had a radical change that Ineeded to navigate right then.
And the requirement for me tobe accessible to my daughter
trumped everything else that Iwas dealing with.
It became number one.
Turned out she was okay.
She had some form of a migraineheadache that can create
stroke-like symptoms.
But for a half an hour as I wasdriving to the hospital, it was
(31:25):
terrifying.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there's also the corollaryhere of not being accessible.
I needed to tell my client thatI was not accessible because I
had something that I was dealingwith personally.
So those are the first three.
Having people know where theycan reach you and believe what
you're saying because you'rebeing transparent and
(31:45):
forthcoming.
Number four on the list is theidea of being reassuring.
And please don't take this ashollow cheerleading, singing
kumbaya around the campfire.
You know, that can be a form ofgaslighting.
Don't worry about it.
Everything's fine.
Well, if everything's not fine,don't say that.
This idea of being reassuringinstead is we're working the
(32:08):
problem.
We're trying to figure it out.
We have the best people, thebest minds working on this.
Top men, top women.
You know that whole thing backto Apollo 13?
Men.
Top men, top women.
We have the best people in theorganization working on it, but
it's this idea of reassurance.
We don't know right now, butwe're working hard to figure it
(32:30):
out.
People, just like you did,you'll nod your head.
You'll feel a sense ofconfidence if your leader is
exuding confidence A feeling ofreassurance.
Joe Miller (32:40):
A lot of these things also, there's kind of
stated at a point in time, butthose that are listening and
watching to us are watching ourbehavior throughout time,
throughout the timeline.
So, I mean, like the last one,when you were talking about your
daughter's emergency and howthat required your accessibility
(33:02):
at the moment, your client atfirst might go, okay, now I get
it.
But when you show back up andthey know that you're putting
something else in the backposition, then that's a mark of
integrity, right?
And in the same way, the Apollo13 example, to just say top
people are working on it is apoint in time.
(33:24):
But cross a timeline andhistory with an individual, if
you build up credibility andtrust, that gives them
confidence.
a much better sense of calm andpeace through that turmoil
because they know what you're,they can count on what you've
said based upon their historywith you.
Bob Tipton (33:43):
Yeah, definitely.
In fact, if you don't have thatintegrity, if you don't have
that accountability and all of asudden you show up like you do,
they'll look at it as a form ofmanipulation.
Yeah, absolutely.
You're just trying to make mefeel a certain way and I don't
trust or believe you.
So yeah, that's veryinsightful, Joe.
It's this idea that There arepoints in time where things we
(34:07):
do or say that are critical, buthow we have behaved over time
is a way for people to be ableto trust and believe what we're
doing or saying.
Joe Miller (34:15):
And I think it gets back to transparency and it's a
little bit counterintuitive too.
I think that it's helpful totell people the truth when
you're not sure what the heck isgoing on.
And as a leader, we want to wewant to be able to be in a
position to be able to reassurepeople but if we don't have it
and i can think here's oneexample if we don't have that
(34:37):
assurance it's really a mistaketo try to pretend you do because
that point in time will thenbuild distrust i remember one
large organization that i workedat 20 plus years ago where we
had a huge system failure and atthat point in time All of our
systems worldwide werecentralized in one location.
(35:00):
And the shipping functions weredown.
And this meant tens of milliondollars of an hour being lost,
probably more than that.
And there was my engineersworking on the problem.
And there was three or fourother vice presidents around me,
(35:21):
staring at me, wanting me tointervene and to beat people up.
That was my sense.
And to, come on, we're notgetting the resolution we need
to, right?
They're panicking.
And I just said, we don't knowwhat the problem is yet.
Me getting in the middle of it,not knowing the detail that
(35:42):
they know, isn't going to behelpful.
Now, that wasn't the rightmessage back to my peers or
people above me even.
So I just bring that up as anexample that it is okay to say,
you're still not sure what theheck is going on.
Because then later on when yousay, we have a handle on it, but
(36:03):
it's going to take time, thenthere's more trust that you're
being straight.
Bob Tipton (36:07):
Yeah, there's a level of consistency in these
types of messages where thebehaviors are demonstrated and
we see it over time.
Trust is one of those thingsthat you can take years to build
and you can lose it in aninstant.
Yeah.
I think this is a sign ofmature leaders as well is
transparency.
(36:27):
Going back to what you saidoriginally, this sort of
triggered all the segue was Iwas in the leadership team
meeting.
We talked about this thing.
I had some concerns.
I still don't know that I feelI understand all of it yet.
That is, I think, a valid andnecessary thing to let people
know.
It's a form of empathy that isso important.
And coupling that withreassurance to say, We're going
(36:50):
to get there.
Count on me.
I'm still asking the hardquestions.
I'm still trying to get thedetailed answers.
I don't feel like I have themyet.
That's another form ofreassurance.
And people can validate you andyour role as a leader when you
do those kinds of things.
So this also gets to, I guess,number five on the list.
And number five on the list isto be factual.
(37:11):
And facts are interestingbecause there's bias and there's
perspective built into factsoften.
So questioning the facts isimportant, but don't speculate.
Don't use conjecture.
Don't transmit gossip.
You know, it's this idea ofhere are the facts and here are
(37:33):
the parameters that go aroundit.
It's like a, you know...
I can't even think of the termnow.
I've been out of IT so long, Ican't even think of data
warehouse.
There we go.
The idea of data is stored, butyou also have to have a context
associated with it beingstored.
So you know what the cutoffswere and you know what the
assumptions were.
Otherwise, it's just garbage,right?
(37:54):
It's just stuff.
So being able to put thecontext with whatever the facts
are is important.
But be clear, be specific.
Talk about things that you canmeasure as opposed to like I
said, conjecture or theories orguesses about things.
People don't need guesses.
They need to be able to dependon something.
(38:15):
So that's number five on thelist.
Number six, this speaks to howyou are showing up.
And what I mean by how you areshowing up, it is in your body
language.
It's being hyper aware, beingaware of the way that you're
communicating outside of thewords that you use or the things
that you type.
So imagine somebody with anexasperated roll in their eyes,
(38:40):
kind of a view about something.
Well, that's okay if you'retalking about the perspective
that I don't get it either.
I'm not sure how I feel aboutit.
That's a fine time to have thatsort of a posture and body
language.
But when someone's asking you aspecific question because
they're worried and they'reconcerned and you show
exasperation, they'll give up onyou.
Joe Miller (39:03):
It's a mismatch.
Yeah.
Bob Tipton (39:05):
Yeah, I've just been dehumanized.
Yeah.
So I'm not suggesting that webecome automatrons and just
robotic-like responses topeople.
There is important interactionthat we have with the way we
look back and forth.
And frankly, that's one of thechallenges in this type of a
medium.
You and I would have a betterconversation if we're sitting in
the same room.
(39:25):
It's not bad here.
It's actually pretty good, Ithink.
Joe Miller (39:29):
Yeah.
Bob Tipton (39:29):
This idea that we're social creatures and the way
that we communicate is reallyimportant.
So be hyper aware of the waythat you show up in your
nonverbal communication.
Joe Miller (39:40):
Actually, nonverbal communication is something we
don't give enough attention to.
And I was thinking mismatchwhen you were talking
previously.
And there's this whole conceptof, and knowledge of this can be
manipulated like other things.
So mirroring and those kinds ofthings, adopting another
person's body language, in orderto establish a connection, all
(40:02):
that stuff, you know, notsuggesting that, but there
should be consistency.
So if you, you know, you nodyour head with approval, you
know, shake your head, no, butyou don't go, yes, I agree with
you.
Or I really think I can trustyou and roll your eyes.
One of my bosses called me outone time.
I was in one of his staffmeetings.
He goes, Joe, rolling youreyes.
(40:22):
not helpful in the context of,you know, kind of trying to say
I was supportive of somethingwhen clearly I wasn't, you know?
So yeah, that's how you showup.
That's, that's a powerful one.
There's a lot, there's a lot tothat one.
Bob Tipton (40:37):
There is.
And it's back to what you weresaying earlier, this idea of
consistency, right?
So I'm a very expressiveperson.
I've got a lot of emotion thatI show on my face on a regular
basis.
And I, If you don't haveintegrity inside your head,
you're not gonna have integrityoutside either.
So it's about the way you'retalking to yourself and how you
(40:59):
feel about things yourself thatit gets expressed on the
outside.
So somebody told me a long timeago that I should be less
expressive in the way that Ishow up.
And I thought, that's not gonnago well.
What I need to make sure isthat there's a connection,
there's integrity between whatI'm saying and how I feel.
That's a far better way ofhaving nonverbal work.
Joe Miller (41:23):
Part of leadership is followership too.
We're not all at the top.
So I think to your point, beingexpressive, maybe you don't
understand a point someone ismaking that you're in someone
else's staff meeting or even asa peer.
It's better to say, help mewith this.
I don't understand.
You can make all kinds ofgestures that are consistent
(41:44):
with that.
So that way, when you get tothe point where you go, oh, I
got it.
You know, and I agree now, youknow, that means something.
You know, not only does itdemonstrate that you're engaged
in trying to understand what wastrying to be communicated to
you, but it also understandsthat you got over the threshold
and you reached agreement.
(42:04):
And that means something morethan just, you know.
Bob Tipton (42:08):
Yeah.
Well, years ago, I used to dointeractive workshops around
giving and receiving feedback.
And One of the activities I'dhave people do is they'd sit
back-to-back in their chairs.
They'd actually move theirchairs so they couldn't see the
other person.
And one person's job was totalk about the thing that they
loved doing the most.
Just absolutely fantastic.
(42:28):
They just loved this.
And it's amazing how quicklythey ran out of steam when they
were talking because they weregetting no feedback.
The other person...
Couldn't answer questions.
You know, it was just nothing.
It was somebody present, butthey're not paying any attention
to me.
And then I'd have them turnaround and I'd have somebody not
(42:49):
give any verbal, facial,nothing.
They just blank stare.
And that was worse.
I found people in some casesactually became physical.
They wanted to reach across tothe other person and say, would
you please respond?
React.
Yeah, I mean, sending outemails, text messages, we don't
see the closed loop ofcommunication.
(43:11):
And no wonder we getmisunderstood all the time
because we don't know how peopleare reacting to things anyway.
This idea of being aware.
And then the last one is beingupbeat.
And you may say that soundslike being reassuring.
Well, to me, it's a little bitdifferent.
Reassurance is we're workingthe problem.
We've got the best people onit.
We've got all these thingshappening.
(43:32):
We'll figure it out.
Being upbeat.
is the way you answerquestions.
It's the way that you presentenergy.
So energy is resonant.
Whatever energy you put out isthe energy you get back.
It's like a tuning fork.
If I'm a leader, I'm a bigtuning fork in the room and I
hit myself against the wall andpretty soon my resonant energy
(43:52):
has shown up with everybody.
So if I show up in a meeting,how's it going?
Well, it's still early.
How's your day going?
Well, it's Monday.
You know, the responses thatpeople often have that are just
simply automatic.
How's your day going?
Well, pretty good day today.
You know, I'm the sun shining.
It's a beautiful day here inDenver.
(44:13):
That's a question you asked mewhen we first saw each other.
You know, it's this idea that Ican choose to show up with
energy of any kind.
Most of the time, not always.
There's some situations likewith my daughter where I was
very concerned and my energy wasclearly in that place.
But that's not all the time,Joe.
Some people think that that isdeceptive.
(44:37):
I think it's helpful.
It's the idea that, okay, yeah,maybe things are hard right
now, but we have a choice abouthow we respond to hard things.
And going back to the thirdquestion that I had, the three
big questions in the firstinstallment...
Who lives, who dies, and why?
Well, the writer of the book,Deep Survival, one of the
(44:58):
primary correlating factors towhether you're going to make it
or not is the belief that youwill.
I'm thinking of Eeyore rightnow.
Well, okay.
Yeah, it's always something.
You know, the people in yourlife that show up like Eeyore,
they tend to feel a little bitlike energy vampires.
They just suck the energy outof the room.
Joe Miller (45:18):
Yeah.
And in particular, thinking ofa...
of leaders.
Thinking about the impact ofhow you show up in this way is
huge.
And so you have aresponsibility.
It's important to understandthe impact you have on the rest
of the people you are caringfor.
Bob Tipton (45:39):
Yes.
And this is something I don'tthink is taught enough in
leadership school.
There's a lot of process andtools and methodologies and so
on.
I think it's just as or moreimportant in terms of how you
show up.
The change that can happeninside of an organization is
(45:59):
remarkable.
You know, the work that I doprofessionally is all around
transformation.
It's all around radical change.
Organizations that are tryingto go someplace big or different
or they're trying to solvechallenging, hairy things.
And the requirement of gettingthere is frightening for a lot
of people because you're givingup The known, you're going from
(46:21):
order to disorder to reorder, aswe talked about in the
beginning.
And that's frightening for alot of people.
If you have someone who isleading you through that process
that sounds like Eeyore, you'redoomed.
Joe Miller (46:34):
It's not the kind of leader you want to follow,
right?
Bob Tipton (46:36):
No, it's just not going to work.
Nor is the toxic positivity.
You know, I think of whateverhis name was.
He lived in the van down by theriver.
Do you remember the ChrisFarley character?
Yeah.
I don't remember his name now.
You know, there's toxic.
Joe Miller (46:52):
Motivation likes Bert.
Bob Tipton (46:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, you don't want that either.
You want something that isupbeat.
It's like, yeah, this is hard.
And some of it doesn't make anysense.
And it's going to bechallenging for a while.
And we can do this.
Yeah.
In fact, you are doing this.
Joe Miller (47:12):
It's not denying the reality that people see.
I think that's an importantthing to consider.
It's not trying to push away ordeny the challenge, the
emotion.
People are picking up thereality.
It's basically guiding andleading people through it in the
most positive way.
And sometimes, back to yourexample from previous episode
(47:35):
about crisis on an airline thatmight be going down.
Certain situations require amore expedient response, right?
But in all situations, havingthe perspective to know what
type response is appropriate asa leader is important.
(47:56):
But going through thesechallenging times, boy, I think
one of the biggest mistakes I dosee is that Leaders tend to
want to push away anything thatcauses friction for them to take
people down that hallway ofchange as quickly and
expediently as possible.
Bob Tipton (48:15):
Which is ultimately self-defeating.
Yeah.
Because the truisms of my lineof work are people don't resist
change.
They resist being changedwithout their permission.
Joe Miller (48:26):
That was the snippet I was trying to remember
earlier from one of our earliestepisodes several years ago.
Yeah, that's a powerfulstatement.
Say that again, Bob.
Bob Tipton (48:38):
People don't resist change.
They resist being changedwithout their permission,
without their participation.
And then Margaret Wheatley,another visionary, probably 30
years ago, said people supportwhat they create.
And then she went on to stateit even more emphatically.
Oh, wait, people only supportwhat they create.
(48:58):
So...
Yeah, getting out of a plane, Idon't have a lot of time to get
buy-in on behalf of people.
Either they do or they don't,but they can participate by
helping others get out of aplane.
That is a rare circumstance.
Most transformational changedoesn't feel like a plane crash.
Most of it feels like a treelosing its leaves and then
(49:22):
growing them back or acaterpillar becoming a
butterfly.
There is some intermediatestage that you go through And
having a leader be able to knowwhat people might be feeling,
how to best lead them throughthat, how to communicate
effectively.
I guess that's the bottom linefor this whole thing as we talk
about it.
The three hours we've beentogether talking about the
(49:43):
subject is it's important forleaders to be able to lead
people someplace where maybethey haven't gone themselves.
Others haven't gone.
A leader needs to have gonethere in order to effectively
lead people through theirjourney.
And that's why I worry about25-year-old vice presidents.
Right.
You know, they just don't havethe life experience to go along
(50:04):
with their book knowledge, sothey don't have wisdom.
What they have instead istheory.
Joe Miller (50:09):
Yeah.
Full of what they call, as theysay, vin and vigor.
Is that right?
Bob Tipton (50:15):
Something like that,
Joe Miller (50:16):
yeah.
But, you know, hey, I've hadthe privilege of spending these
three hours talking throughthese things with you.
Kind of one-on-one.
We had Mike on the last episodewith us, Mike Peterson.
But let's pivot now, if it'sokay, and talk about the webinar
and the format for the webinar.
I mean, you'll be touching onthese same points, I think, in
the webinar.
This is intended to have alittle interaction beforehand.
(50:38):
But what's that experience likefor folks who want to join and
then how do they join?
I think I can easily drop theweb link in the bottom for
registration.
Bob Tipton (50:47):
That's easy.
Joe Miller (50:48):
Tell us about that.
Bob Tipton (50:50):
Well, the experience is designed to be efficient in
use of our time.
So it's not three hours long.
It's designed to be 45, 50minutes of content and then
live.
All of the sessions are live.
None of it's prerecorded.
So if you have a specificquestion or an observation or a
thought, you can drop it intothe Q&A.
And then I'll take that up atthe end.
(51:12):
And there's some reallyfascinating questions that are
coming forward.
Most of it have to do with someform of resistance, some form
of organizational bias, someleadership immaturity.
But we'll talk about specificsituations.
And I'll also have visuals, soyou don't have to imagine what
I'm talking about.
I'll have some visuals that youcan actually use.
(51:32):
And then sending along copiesof the slides, having you be
able to reference it later on,and having a a connection if you
want to reach out when it comesto additional perspectives or
thoughts.
I welcome that.
I encourage that.
So the experience is designedto be efficient, hard-hitting,
factual.
I move along quickly.
(51:52):
But then also there'sopportunity for it to be
interactive because all thesessions are live.
Joe Miller (51:59):
Yeah, and this is what you've been doing, Team
Tipton's been doing, and whatyou've been doing for years now.
Oh,
Bob Tipton (52:07):
yeah.
Back in the day, I remembersitting in my walk-in closet in
my master bedroom doing webinarsbecause that was the only quiet
place in the whole house.
The sound booth.
Yeah, and trying to imagine theaudience that was there.
You know, it's a good thingthat's happened with all these
virtual meetings.
Dogs bark, you know, thingshappen.
(52:27):
You get network glitches.
We're a lot more forgiving withthe technology than we used to
be years ago.
But yeah, I've been...
providing this type of approachfor many, many, many.
Joe Miller (52:40):
And obviously for years, people have been going
through changes like this, butit just seems like as we first
talked about having theseepisodes with you on Titans,
boy, it just seems like thingshave ramped up in the past five
years, six years, maybe twoyears.
So, I mean, I'm wondering, youknow, over the arc of the period
of time, has there been anyshifts or differences?
(53:02):
Have you refined the yourteaching and your tools in
recent years, or has it been alot of what was always there?
Just as a curiosity.
Bob Tipton (53:12):
No, I think there's a lot of, that's a great
question.
We have moved to inflectionpoints much more rapidly with
the advent of certainly theinternet, but social media, the
ability for communication tomake it around the world in
seconds that used to take yearsin order for things to happen.
Also, the lack of curiosity andpeople's willingness to
(53:33):
voluntarily be part of analgorithm or an echo chamber.
It's been more and moredifficult to get people to move
off of their positions.
The curiosity is not nearly asstrong as it used to be and the
sense of questioning things.
Along with that, there's been adestruction in our belief when
it comes to certaininstitutions.
(53:55):
And it's just all of it.
added together has moved us toa point where we are right now.
Joe Miller (54:01):
Yeah, it just seems like the amplitude has turned up
much, much higher.
Bob Tipton (54:07):
Yes, and I remember 20 years ago working to support
a marketing organization withmanipulating behaviors and
knowing exactly what peoplewould do and say.
20 years ago, we've become somuch better at that.
And now trying to breakthrough, we need sensational
information to get some sort ofa significant response to
(54:29):
things.
So it's like we're beingadrenalized constantly.
Everything that we hear has gotsome significant issue
associated with it.
Joe Miller (54:38):
I heard something today.
I was consuming some contentwhere the individual said that
we have become the product ofour reaction has become the
product to monetize, right?
Which to me was, I mean, I kindof knew it, but to have it
called out like that was justlike, whoa, that is so true.
(54:59):
And so there is the wholecontrol conspiracy thing of
messaging, but there's also theability to get our eyeballs on
certain messages can bemonetized, right?
Bob Tipton (55:13):
It is all the time.
It has been for years.
That's where influencers maketheir money.
Joe Miller (55:16):
Yeah.
Bob Tipton (55:17):
It's a
Joe Miller (55:18):
number
Bob Tipton (55:18):
of people hear or see them do or say something.
I don't know what history willsay a thousand years from now
when we look back on this timeperiod with influencers making
millions of dollars just simplyby providing content.
But you're absolutely right,Joe.
Our reactions have become theproduct.
And certain reactions are farmore valuable than others.
(55:41):
So the idea, going all the wayback to the first episode that
we had, is, is this actuallyreal?
The simple question ofquestioning the question,
questioning the assumption,questioning the platform of what
somebody's trying to putforward, that diffuses what
you're describing.
(56:02):
It's this suffering in advancedynamic.
One more time.
Somebody said something, andI'm worrying about it.
Well, is it even real?
Taken to an extreme, sufferingin advance becomes premeditated
bitterness.
I'm already pissed off aboutsomething that hasn't even
happened yet.
And we live in this adrenalizedform that people prey on.
Joe Miller (56:23):
And we wonder why our cortisol levels are driven
through the roof, and we havehealth consequences because of
that as well.
Bob Tipton (56:31):
All of that.
Joe Miller (56:32):
So
Bob Tipton (56:33):
if there's anything that I've learned that's
different now is it's so muchmore important for self-care,
for awareness, for the abilityto sort through and decide,
discern whether something isreal or not real.
And does it belong to me or notbelong to me?
We're asked to pick up loadsall the time.
So you asked if things aredifferent now?
(56:54):
Yeah.
We're so overscheduled.
We have so many things in ourlife that we are asked to pay
attention to.
I think here's one of theradical pieces of advice I give
to leaders on a regular basis istake all of the meetings off of
your calendar, the ones thatyou're able to.
Take them all off and then addback meetings based upon value.
(57:14):
Add attendees based uponbenefit.
It's amazing how much time justrushes back into your schedule
because you're not just holdingmeetings for some historical
purpose that doesn't matteranymore.
That's a topic for anotherconversation.
Joe Miller (57:27):
Yeah, that's a good one.
That's a good one.
Just a closing thought for mewould be if you're a leader and
you really want to stand out andstand out in a very positive
way, put into practice some ofthese positive things that Bob
has gone through because youwill be differentiated
immediately.
And Everyone who is looking toyou, the people you want to be
(57:52):
on your team, people you want tofollow you, will come to you
quickly and enthusiasticallybecause you're being empathetic
and truthful.
You're showing up.
You're being accessible whenneeded.
All those things are really thethings that matter.
So people are looking for thatright now, and they're
(58:12):
unfortunately not finding enoughof it.
So Bob, I want to thank you forcoming on and bringing this,
I'll call it teaching to usbecause that's what it is.
And I want to encourageeveryone who's listening in
who's hung in here this long toplease check out the link for
the registration, the webinarfor Bob.
(58:33):
He could be doing a lot ofother things, but he's
passionate about this wholetopic and the importance right
now.
So any closing thoughts fromyou, Bob?
Bob Tipton (58:44):
I just want to say thank you to you, Joe.
You bet.
For your wisdom, your vision,your leadership to bring lots of
topics and perspectives aroundleadership and helping people be
as effective as they possiblycan.
Because the world does need asmany great leaders as it can
have.
There's no limit to the numberof great leaders that we can
(59:07):
have on Earth, and we need moreand more of them all the time.
So thank you for the chance tobe with you, and I appreciate
what you do.
Joe Miller (59:14):
You bet, Bob.
Till next time.
All right.
Take care.
Hey, thanks for joining metoday on Titans of Transition.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Please check the show notes foradditional information.
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