March 10, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode of TMI Talk, Dr. Mary discusses how ignoring our body's signals and harboring resentment can lead to burnout. Dr. Mary is joined by Cait Donovan, the host of Fried the Burnout Podcast and author of 'The Bounce Back Ability Factor.'
Cait shares her personal journey from being an acupuncturist to becoming a burnout expert due to her own experiences with burnout and COVID-19 impacts on her business.
The conversation dives into the importance of body awareness, addressing resentment, and the complexities of burnout, including the role of interoception and emotional exhaustion. Cait emphasizes starting with foundational self-care by acknowledging basic bodily needs and examining underlying resentments to set better boundaries and stop self-neglect. Together, they aim to help listeners gain insights into regaining energy and managing burnout effectively.
00:00 Introduction to Burnout and Resentment
00:37 Meet Cait Donovan: Burnout Expert
01:59 Cait's Journey from Acupuncture to Burnout Education
04:53 Understanding Burnout: Identity Crisis and Emotional Impact
08:28 Eastern Medicine and Burnout: Interoception and Prevention
12:24 Holistic Approach to Burnout: Connecting the Dots
16:07 Challenges in Burnout Recovery: Individualized Treatment
22:24 Understanding Body Awareness and Burnout
23:09 The Impact of Ignoring Body Signals
23:41 Gender Differences in Burnout
24:08 Emotional Exhaustion and Burnout
27:48 Foundational Self-Care Practices
28:45 The Role of Resentment in Burnout
31:28 Overcoming People Pleasing
33:43 Practical Steps to Combat Burnout
36:22 Gathering Data Through Disappointment
41:21 Conclusion and Contact Information
You can learn more about Cait Donovan here, her podcast FRIED: The Burnout Podcast. You can also find here on instagram here
If you are a health or movement professional and want to stay in touch with future episodes, webinars, courses, events and more. Subscribe to my email list here
I’ll see you in a week!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Audio Only - All Particip (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome back to TMI
Talk with Dr.
Mary.
Today we are going to be talkingabout how not listening to our
body's cues and resentment cancause burnout.
And this can lead to a cascadeof a bunch of other symptoms.
And in my experience, I findthis can happen in all different
(00:21):
phases of life.
But And everybody experiences itdifferently.
So if you feel like you'retapped out, if you feel like you
just don't have capacity foranything and you're on edge and
you're just not feeling well,this is going to be an episode
to listen to.
And so today I have CaitDonovan.
On the podcast.
She is the host of fried theburnout podcast.
(00:43):
She's also an internationalkeynote speaker and author of
the book bounce back abilityfactor.
Her creative burnout recoverysolutions have been featured on
podcasts and online magazines,such as.
Forbes, NPR, and the New YorkPost, and is also in companies
such as Clorox and Pepsi.
On top of all of that is shealso is an acupuncturist and
(01:07):
blends the Eastern medicine sideof this into her burnout
program.
So without further ado, we aregoing to move into the podcast.
Ready to tackle the topics thatyou've been curious about but
never felt comfortable asking?
With a straightforward, nononsense perspective on life,
blended with candid stories anda healthy dose of humor, Dr.
(01:28):
Mary Grimberg cuts through thefluff and addresses the
conversations we all need tohave on TMI Talk, where no
subject is too taboo.
Our bodies, our minds, andeverything in between.
Now here's your host, Dr.
Mary.
Dr. Mary (01:46):
Welcome Cait to the show.
I'm happy to have you here.
I'm super excited to be here.
Yeah.
So we're just going to jumpright in with some questions and
go from there.
Sound good?
Let's do it.
All right.
So we were just talking beforewe jumped on here about how
you're an acupuncturist as well.
And so what inspired you totransition from practicing as an
(02:11):
acupuncturist to focusing oneducating people about burnout?
Cait Donovan (02:16):
Two things.
I burnt out and COVID crashed mybusiness.
Dr. Mary (02:21):
Yeah.
I mean, not laughing at
Cait Donovan (02:23):
that, but I
Dr. Mary (02:23):
just, yeah, I mean,
Cait Donovan (02:25):
I, I moved back to the States a year before COVID
started and I didn't have astrong enough patient base to
last through the pandemic.
And I was already building aspeaking career after having
recovered from burnout andrealizing how many gaps there
were in the stories that werehappening around burnout,
especially at the time.
This was 20, you know, 2019 Iwrote my book in 2018.
(02:46):
Um, the, the combination of meburning out, seeing the gaps and
then COVID closing downacupuncture for me, it was like,
it's, it's now or never time tojump.
Dr. Mary (02:56):
Yeah.
It's like, it's one of thosethings where maybe probably in
the moment, if this is for likeyou, like what happened to you
is something similar to me islike the doors close and then
it's just like, Oh, the optionshere.
Okay.
Let's, let's do it.
Audio Only - All Particip (03:11):
Yeah.
Dr. Mary (03:12):
Was that shocking or was it more of, okay, like, how
did you take that?
Uh, the
Cait Donovan (03:18):
switch on an identity level was really hard
for so, such a big portion of mylife.
I was like, well, I'm anacupuncturist.
That's what I am.
That's who I am.
That's everything I am.
Herbalist, acupuncturist, doctorof Chinese medicine, you know,
(03:42):
and, um.
I had fought for it, because sooften people are like, Accumen
insurance, does that doanything?
And I'm like, no, I just takepeople's money for a good time.
Dr. Mary (03:53):
And stick needles in them for fun.
And stick
Cait Donovan (03:54):
needles in them.
And I mean, there are muchbetter ways to earn money, trust
me.
Like, I would do something elseif I was going to be a
charlatan.
I'd be a much better charlatanthan this, um, if I was going to
do that.
And so, but you do have to, itis something that needs to be
defended often.
And people don't typically havemalintent.
They're just actually curious.
But you do have to then come upwith defenses for this thing
(04:20):
that you do.
So I had spent so much timefighting for acupuncture.
That leaving it behind was,like, a little confusing, a
little overwhelming.
I was awkwardly happy that I hadfinished paying off my student
loan bills because I felt likeat least I paid for my
acupuncture degree, which is amaster's degree, it's four years
long, it's expensive.
(04:41):
I paid for that with money thatI made doing the thing that I
paid to learn how to do.
Yeah, so that kind of felt likeat least that little bow is
tied.
But it was a really hardtransition.
Dr. Mary (04:53):
Well, I think, you know, anybody that's listening
to this can also think as well,you know, we're in a time where
people are experiencing massiveburnout in every aspect of their
lives.
And a root cause of a lot ofthis is burnout in the
workplace.
And so I think.
It's good for people to hearlike, Hey, I went through
(05:15):
acupuncture school, or maybe youwent to law school or PT school
or whatever school you went to.
And you were like, this isn'tworking for me.
And I know that I've seen thisin physicians, especially where
they're just burnt out, but theywent to salt, like so much extra
schooling that it's just, Ithink it's hard to have that
shift of being like, okay, I'mnot going to practice anymore
(05:36):
because I've made thiscommitment.
Right.
But.
Also, your, your background asan acupuncturist really, even
though it's not acupuncture thatyou're doing now, like that
skill set is incredibly useful.
So it's transferable, you know,from that
Cait Donovan (05:55):
aspect.
And this is something that Italk about with my clients all
the time.
Like the identity, letting go ofpart of your identity because
it's time to pivot intosomething new is really
complicated and involves griefand you can't, if you're gonna
do it, you have to accept thatthere is an emotional component
to it that you have to livethrough.
(06:16):
You're not just gonna likechange your mind and walk away.
Like you're gonna have to gothrough a process and that's
fine.
As long as you know it's comingand can prep for it and you have
some sort of plan to workthrough it.
But most people that burn outhave some sort of identity
crisis alongside.
Dr. Mary (06:33):
Oh, of course.
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's, you chooseyour heart, right?
Like for PT, you can go and workin corporate indefinitely for
the rest of your life, but like,you're going to be in the clinic
like likely 50 hours a week,treating two to four people an
hour, maybe more indefinitely.
That's hard for a long period oftime, or you can branch off on
(06:56):
your own and that's going to behard.
It's going to, I mean, there'salways going to be hard, but
it's going to be harder for ashorter period of time for a
long term gain.
I think people are so fearful ofthat initial resistance because
if you, if we know what thatresistance is going to be there
and leaning into it, I sawsomething today.
It was like, it's not courage orfear.
(07:17):
It's courage and fear.
Cait Donovan (07:21):
Well, I think the thing about when you're burnt
out is that that's a really bigask.
You don't have the emotional, orphysical, or mental, or
energetic resilience to do thethings that are required to make
the bold move initially.
You, uh, you, physically, likeon a mitochondrial level, you
just don't got it.
(07:41):
You're tapped out.
You're tapped out.
You're burnt out.
That's literally what it maymean.
You're done
Dr. Mary (07:47):
toast.
Cait Donovan (07:48):
Yeah.
You're still alive, but likeyou're not really living.
Dr. Mary (07:52):
Yeah, I, I, I get it.
I've, I went through this, youknow, I've, I've been through
this.
This was my 2018 just branchingout of corporate.
You know, and then, and thenthere's also different phases of
grief and stuff too, as yougrow.
And then there's a past thatlike, Oh, even me as a business
owner.
Now, the way that I look atthings, the way that I, that I
(08:15):
hire, it's so different than Idid, you know, in 2018 and 2019.
It's just, there's, there'sthese insane amounts of growth
too, to go through from thosesteps.
And so from, Are there specific,so from an Eastern medicine
practice, right, what have youfound to be helpful from that
(08:40):
level for managing or preventingburnout?
Cait Donovan (08:45):
So I'll start by saying that I don't believe for
the majority of people thatburnout prevention is like
really a thing unless you'veburnt out and recovered, and
then you've put in place effortsand tools to avoid burning out
again, but initial burnoutprevention, one of the reasons
that a lot of people end upburnt out is because they have
(09:06):
really low levels ofinteroception, And this is a
brain development issue fromchildhood trauma.
So a lot of people withchildhood trauma during any year
before the age of nine, duringpeak neural development, part of
their brain won't develop fully.
And that part, part of that iswhat's responsible for your
ability.
Interoception is your You knowthis probably, but for other
(09:29):
people, interoception is yourability to notice and feel what
your body is doing so that youcan respond appropriately.
It's how you build self trust.
It's how you calm your nervoussystem in the most basic way.
Like, people are teaching allthese wacky somatic exercises
when really you need to like peewhen you need to pee.
Dr. Mary (09:48):
Oh, totally.
I mean, I'm about the somaticstuff myself, but I'm also like,
We have to understand why we gotto that place.
It's like breath work too.
Breath work is a tool.
Somatic exercises are a tool.
Right?
I saw something the other day onInstagram that was like, We are
not talking about why somebodyneeds breath work for an hour a
(10:11):
day to function.
Right?
Breath work is wonderful.
But it's
Cait Donovan (10:16):
magical, so is somatic work.
Yes.
It is magical.
However, if you do that work andthen you're still not drinking
when you're thirsty, not peeingwhen you have to pee, not
resting when you're tired, notclosing your eyes when your eyes
are fatigued from looking at ascreen, not moving when you're
antsy, if you're not heeding thebasic core messages from your
(10:38):
body of just, for normal level,for normal functioning.
If you're not doing that, then alot of the other stuff doesn't
work.
So, the, answering the firstpart of that question, I don't
really believe in burnoutprevention because most of us
are never going to notice thatwe're on our way to burnout
because our interoception isn'tstrong enough for us to notice
all the red flags until everysingle one of them is up at the
(11:00):
same time and they're all onfire.
Dr. Mary (11:02):
I mean, it's, it's the pain of it, right?
It's, I Maybe there's beenpeople out there.
I think I'm a little bit yet tosee somebody that hasn't gone
through immense amount of painto make a drastic change.
I mean, maybe there, maybe thereare people, it has to feel like
kind of what you're saying, allthe doors close.
You're just like, I'm tap.
(11:23):
Tapped out.
I am done.
I can't, I have no capacity.
So if you're listening to this,you're like, I have no capacity.
I don't want to talk to myfriends.
I'm up to here at work.
My kids always need me.
Maybe my partner's there, butmaybe they can't show up either.
Like we.
Um, and, and, and it's hardbecause I'm doing a lot of inner
(11:49):
work to kind of work throughthis, but I still have my own
traumas and my fears and stuff.
So when somebody else is burntout, even though they aren't
thinking clearly or stuff, I canstill be like, Oh my God.
And I have to sit through thatand be like, Oh, that wasn't.
That wasn't personal, but itfelt like that.
And so it's also putting outthis energy of negativity and
(12:12):
anger, and it perpetuates withwhat's really even going on in
our country as well.
You know, people just don't havecapacity right now.
Cait Donovan (12:21):
People just don't.
So, so that that's part one ofanswering that question.
The other part of answering thatquestion, the there's, I did
another degree in bio behavioralhealth after I moved back to the
States that really complementseverything I know in Chinese
medicine, but from the Westernperspective and this bio
behavioral health degree wasbasically how stress affects
every system of the body,genetic, epigenetic, psychology,
(12:42):
neurology, sociology, all thethings, epidemiology,
everything.
So It was fascinating to do, tohave, like, both sides of those
things.
And one of the things that Inoticed is that in Chinese
medicine, everything is, um,circular and connected.
There's no, like, straightlines.
There's not, like, A plus Bequals C.
And if you look at burnoutinformation from some of the
(13:03):
biggest voices in the burnoutworld, they're saying the root
cause of burnout is X.
And every time I read it, I'mlike, girl, no.
Yeah.
Because there's no such thing asa singular root cause of
burnout.
There are a multitude of factorsthat pile on each other and
increase your vulnerability toburnout until The straw breaks
(13:26):
the camel's back.
And in Chinese medicine,everything is always looked at
holistically.
So we're always looking at allthe different reasons that
something might come into play.
Something from work, somethingfrom traits, something from
family, something from culture,something from environment,
something from food, somethingfrom health, something from, you
know, all these little piecesthat come together to create a
(13:46):
vulnerability or a resilience toburnout either way.
And some people do have a higherresilience because of all the
factors that ended up in theirmain bucket.
Audio Only - All Participan (13:56):
And
Cait Donovan (13:56):
some of us just don't.
So, this basic thinking, thisbasic idea, way of considering
the body in a more holisticfashion is the biggest thing
that I take with me from thisEastern perspective to say, hey,
like, all of this stuff matters.
And then, the next piece of thatis, so it doesn't matter where
(14:18):
you start.
Because if everything affectseverything affects everything,
then you should be able to workon the thing that's easiest
first for you.
And when you work on thateasiest thing, it should
naturally create an opening towork on the next thing that
really matters for you, whichwill naturally create an opening
to work on the next thing.
And when you've worked on thosethree things, four other things
(14:39):
will have already beenalleviated because everything is
connected to everything, whichis connected to everything.
So, it takes a lot of thepressure off, like you're not
going to have to fill everysingle bucket that's wrong.
You're going to have to reallyfocus on one, two, or three of
the buckets, and the other threeare going to get filled.
So, it takes a lot of pressureoff what actually needs filling.
(15:01):
to happen.
Dr. Mary (15:03):
Well, I think it's also exactly like what you're
saying.
I get really frustrated with thewellness culture of like, now we
went from this hustle culture tolike do breath work a million
times a day.
And then, um, you know, let's,let's heal our gut.
Let's do all these things.
And I'm like, that's great.
Great.
Great, but I'm sorry if you'rerunning around with your head
(15:26):
cut off you are tapped out Itdoesn't matter what you eat your
body can't even digest it theright way Like your body can't
it's not as resilient to tostress It's not as resilient to
these other things and I I justfeel like I'm screaming this at
like the Just let's break itdown.
Cause it's the same thing.
It's like, I'll see people beinglike, Oh, this is, this is the
(15:49):
cure.
This is it.
And I'm like, if anybody saysone thing in any aspect is the
answer for you run, because theydon't know you.
They don't know your body.
They don't know your trauma.
They don't know your experiencein life and what you've been
through.
So no, and it goes.
It goes that way becausebasically, I mean, this is what
(16:09):
I talk to my patients about thatare dealing with chronic health
issues, like either chronicillness or chronic pelvic pain,
a variety of these things, andI'm like, we have to learn how
to re engage our body, and it'sreally, this hustle culture has
really taken a toll on us, andI'm sorry, a vitamin D
(16:30):
supplement's not going to helpif
Cait Donovan (16:32):
you're not.
And at the same time, so I tellpeople this all the time, like,
if You're calling me forcoaching, but you haven't done
blood work yet, and we find outsix months later that you have
like no vitamin B12 and novitamin D.
I don't want to work on yourmindset when your body doesn't
have the fuel it needs tofunction.
So, like, yes, and yes, always,yes, and yes, and more, and
(16:55):
more, please.
Like, it just keeps connecting.
Dr. Mary (16:59):
Yeah, totally.
I was just talking to a patientabout this this week.
Hey, we can work on the mindsetstuff.
It's almost like clearingphysiologically first, right?
If you've got estrogendominance, right?
If you've got thyroid issues, ifyou've got vitamin deficiencies,
right?
Say all of those are like, saythose are good, right?
(17:22):
Then we can work on thosethings.
But there is a piece where like,when my hormones have been
dysregulated in the past, Idon't, I can't, you feel crazy.
Cause you're just like, I can'tget my, why can't I get myself
to do this?
And you know, the tactics I'mlike, we need to look at
physiologically then what's,what's going on.
But I was more saying like, youknow, any supplement just to
(17:45):
kind of whatever.
Cait Donovan (17:46):
No, I know.
But, and I think it was perfectthat you said that because it
just goes into the next exampleand it just like, I think that's
the thing about burnout ingeneral is that Like, in Chinese
medicine, it's really normal if,and it's the same for you, this
is a really similar, because ofthe specific work that you do,
it makes, this makes, will makea lot of sense for you to, if I
(18:08):
have five patients that havemigraines in Chinese medicine,
all five of those patients arelikely in Chinese medicine to
have a different diagnosis,which means they have a
completely different treatmentplan, right?
Like, you could have fivepatients with pelvic pain,
right?
But different pain of adifferent quality in a different
area that requires differenttreatment and different, right?
(18:31):
And this is critical tounderstand about burnout.
The picture of burnout is socomplicated that we do have to
simplify it so that you havesomewhere to start.
But If you're looking online andsomebody's like that gratitude
like please gratitude is not thesolution on that first day like
you don't have the mentalcapacity or even the The
(18:52):
neurochemicals to feel thegratitude so that it will have
an effect.
I love gratitude It's a fabulouspractice.
We know that it benefits you butif you don't have the actual
flood of neurochemicals throughyour body when you are Like,
aiming to experience gratitudeintentionally, it doesn't do
anything.
Just thinking about it doesn'tdo anything.
(19:13):
We need the neurochemicals to gowith it, but when you're burnt
out, you don't have thoseneurochemicals.
Like, you don't have enough ofthem, so you're not going to get
there.
Dr. Mary (19:21):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's important.
Like the positive affirmationsand, you know, that doesn't
work.
Like it just doesn't work.
I mean, the gratitude does whenyou practice it and you're,
you're not.
In survival mode, you know, it'slike Mavs loves hierarchy of
needs, right?
It's like, if your basic needsare not met, we can't tap into
(19:44):
creativity.
Like I find when people areextremely burned out, like they
can't concentrate.
They can't tap into creativity.
They can't innovate.
They're just like, I can't, Ijust can't.
And I actually see this most,I'm interested to see what you
see, but I see it a lot aroundperimenopause and menopause,
(20:05):
like tapped out.
Cait Donovan (20:07):
Well, and I think there's there's some like
hormonal overlap and people arelike, well, is it burnout or is
it hormones?
And I'm like, or did thehormonal shift create another
vulnerability to burnout?
That was the straw that brokethe camel's back.
Dr. Mary (20:21):
Yeah, I think it's I think it's I personally think
it's yes, the hormone piece ismassive.
But I almost feel like it likekind of adds fuel to the fire.
Like the fires already there,the burnouts there, but that
that, like you said, that's apiece where they're like, I am
done.
Like I am done.
(20:42):
And how much of that, you know,from what ends I really think, I
mean, a lot of times it'sbecause That was the last piece,
and they're like, it'sperimenopause and menopause, and
I'm like, yes, and, yes, and,and so that's why I like the
nervous system regulation withthat, but nervous system
(21:04):
regulation, part of that islooking at your life.
Cait Donovan (21:07):
The best thing you could ever do for nervous system
regulation is pee when you haveto pee and drink when you're
thirsty and do like, this iswhen we're back.
to yes, you can pay somebody tolearn magical somatic exercises
and somatic exercises are superhelpful.
And there are ways of sensingyour body and moving through
your body mentally that areincredibly helpful, but it's
(21:28):
much easier for you to tap intothose things if you're already
trying to listen frequentlyenough that you can catch the
base signals.
Dr. Mary (21:37):
Yeah, I would say, you know, um, I see this a lot too,
when people are burnt out,they're not body aware.
So they're unaware of how to doan exercise.
They're like, like, I can't feelthis muscle working.
Cait Donovan (21:49):
And I'm like, they don't have interoception, which
is why they burn out, which iswhy I don't believe in burnout
prevention because they werenever going to feel the things
right.
So we're, and then we're, we're,we're cycling around the same
merry go round, you know?
Dr. Mary (22:03):
Well, I think, I mean, I like.
I'm just saying it in differentways so that when people hear
it, they're like, Oh, okay.
I see.
That's me.
Right.
And that's me.
Cause I'll get people come in.
They're like, Oh, I was told Ican't feel my glute.
My glutes aren't firing.
I'm like, no.
When people say glutes aren'tfiring, I'm like, you would
literally fall down.
(22:24):
Like you would literally.
Yeah.
So your glutes are firing.
You just may not be able to feelthem right now.
So there's, there's that piece.
So it's like, if you don't havecapacity, if, if you can't feel
your body, if you're not bodyaware, you're confused on what's
going on it.
And I've, I've been that person.
(22:45):
I mean, that literally my.
My whole thing was 2019 andlike, it was, it was okay,
tapped out, right?
And, and with like, I alwaystalk about Gabbermonte's work,
but it's like when the body saysno, and it says no, and
sometimes we're not evenlistening, even when it's saying
(23:05):
no, or like not sure how to evenaddress it.
Cait Donovan (23:09):
Well, we can't hear it in the first place.
We're not listening becausewe're not taught.
Even in school, we're taught toignore our body signals.
We have to raise my hand to gouse the bathroom.
And then sometimes you're goingto tell me, no, I'm five.
Dr. Mary (23:22):
I'm going to shit my pants.
You know,
Cait Donovan (23:25):
it's five.
Like, what are we doing?
Oh gosh.
Why are we teaching people toignore?
And are there kids that abusethe system?
Sure, of course.
But like, We are literallytaught our entire lives.
That's why people are like,well, women burn out more than
men.
And I'm like, maybe, or maybethe reasons for vulnerabilities
(23:49):
are just a little bit different.
And maybe women are talkingabout it more because I have a
lot of clients that are men.
Dr. Mary (23:56):
Oh, I think men just show it different.
I think they tend to show itmore in anger.
I think.
Or like, or a withdrawal, I'dsay.
Yeah.
Cait Donovan (24:05):
Withdrawal, um, is a big one.
And, I mean, yes, anger doescome up, and I think, like, one
of the three components ofburnout that has to exist in
order for us to say that it isburnout, even though it's not a
diagnosis, it still has rules.
Whatever.
World Health Organization, 2019.
Thanks.
Um, one of the things is, Youknow, emotional exhaustion,
(24:27):
which is basically an inabilityto regulate your emotional
state, which means you're eitherbursting into tears, bursting
into rage, bursting into so, butI hear this from both women and
men all the time.
One of the biggest complaintsand the reason that people
finally ask for help with theburnout recovery is I'm being
terrible to my friends andfamily.
(24:48):
I can hear myself doing it.
Like I, I know I'm doing it andI still can't stop myself.
Dr. Mary (24:55):
Yeah, I've been there.
Yeah.
It's and yeah, I think, like yousaid, I think.
You know, it's not just women,it's men too, and I don't, I
don't like to divide, um,people.
I'm just saying, oh, it's justwomen or it's just men.
It's like, no, we, and it's, andit's hard to even classify it
(25:17):
men versus women, right?
Because everybody shows emotionsor they process things like
differently, but I meanculturally there are kind of
Stereotypes of how people behavewhen they're burnt out.
Right.
Like kind of what I was saying,like emotional withdrawal.
Like I have been aroundwonderful men that when they
just can't process any type offeedback because they are
(25:41):
already tapped out.
And so that's when the lashingout happens.
Like, Oh, now you just tappedinto my, my worthiness by
saying, Hey, this, you know,whatever.
And so it's just reallyinteresting, like.
That it's taken us so long to betalking about this, you know, I
mean, I just think it's alsoevolved as, as work becomes
(26:04):
easier to do at home and, youknow, people are making more and
more money than ever.
And as a culture, I think wevalue so much our currency as of
money, not as much currency ofhealth and time and
relationships.
Cait Donovan (26:20):
And I think that, you know, when the World Health
Organization finally decidedthat they were going to say
burnout was a thing, it gave uspermission to really fully talk
about it.
Like, really fully say, well,there's a definition now.
I don't think it's ideal, butit's there.
At least we're startingsomewhere.
Dr. Mary (26:39):
Yeah.
And
Cait Donovan (26:40):
now we can talk about it.
Dr. Mary (26:44):
It's, it's, you know, it's giving, once people almost,
I don't know how other peoplefelt, but I almost feel like I
needed permission.
Like I needed to know it wasokay to sit when I'm tired.
Cause like you were saying as akid, I remember I got in trouble
for eating during class.
I'm like, I am like, I playthree sports.
(27:05):
I am hungry and I am growing andI got like detention for eating
in class or something.
I'm like, so I got scared ofeating and then not holding in
my pee.
And, and I don't think at thetime, I don't know if anybody
actually like meant to beharmful with it.
No.
But I think that it's tuning in.
(27:28):
Yeah, exactly.
And so.
What are like some key signsthat somebody can kind of start
paying attention to, like yousaid, eating when you want to
eat, drinking, like, going tothe bathroom.
Like if somebody wanted to, youknow, start now, like, what,
what would be like this littlestep they could do?
Cait Donovan (27:48):
Well, that's the first step.
So this is what we callfoundational self care and is
literally forcing yourself tolisten to your body and then
respond to it, or at least tellit.
In your mind, hey, I know you'vegot to do that.
I'm still in the car.
I'm going to be home in 15minutes.
I promise when I walk in thedoor, I'm going to go to the
bathroom.
Like, just having, kind ofhaving, starting a conversation
(28:10):
with your body that says, hey, Ihear you, I see you, my eyes are
tired, I'm on a Zoom call rightnow, and I cannot shut my camera
off because my boss is here, sowe're going to have to get
through this, and then I willshut my eyes for 60 seconds just
to give you a break, like, here,whatever.
But this, this foundational selfcare is.
For me, step number one, becauseI don't think you can do the
(28:32):
harder things without the energyboosts that you get from doing
those things.
So that's number one.
And the next thing for me is oneof my favorite things.
Look into resentment.
Because so many people are outthere being like, Gratitude
Journal saved me from burnout.
I'm like, girl, you weren'tburnt out if that helped.
(28:54):
Like, that's what burnout is.
Um, because we have such animbalance of neurochemicals and
we have brain shrinkage in ourforehead and in our amygdala, in
our limbic system, in ourhippocampus, like, there's, we
don't have access to everythingwe're supposed to have access to
(29:14):
when we're burnt out.
Your brain actually literallyshrinks.
You lose neurons, which meansyou don't have as many
neurochemicals, because youdon't have as many neurons to
use those neurochemicals.
So, we have to work with theemotions that are already there
and present.
Chinese medicine states there'sno such thing as a negative
emotion.
The only emotions that arenegative are the ones that are
unprocessed, untransformed,ignored, etc.
(29:37):
So as long as we use it forsomething, it's useful.
That's it.
And resentment is the emotionthat I find to be the most
common.
And when we really dig into itand pay attention to where it's
popping up, it teaches us one oftwo things always.
One, your boundaries are messedup.
(30:00):
Two, you've abandoned yourself,or you've engaged in self
neglect.
Intentionally, but maybesubconsciously.
If you can learn that, Andyou've already regained some
energy because you're using yourbody the way that you're
supposed to and you're payingattention and creating a
trusting relationship so you'reincreasing your internal safety
(30:20):
which calms your nervous system,etc.
And then you start movingthrough the parts of your life
that really aren't working foryou by paying attention to the
resentment.
You see the relationships thatare off.
You see where you're overgiving.
You see where you're overstepping and possibly meddling.
Most of my clients are meddlersin some way, shape, or form, in
(30:40):
a people pleasing shape or form,most commonly, which doesn't
actually please people, it justmakes people annoyed, so then
they don't get the gratitudethey think they deserve for
being the meddlers and thepeople pleasers that they are,
and it's like this nasty
Dr. Mary (30:52):
cycle.
Cait Donovan (30:53):
It's a nasty cycle, but resentment can break
it down because you start to seethe boundary and you start to
see, most people that burn out,I think, do not know, in
addition to being able to feeltheir bodies, they don't really
have a clear picture of whattheir wants, needs, desires, and
preferences are.
When you look at the second partthat resentment teaches you, all
(31:14):
the places you are abandoningyourself for the perceived
benefit of others.
All the places that you'reengaging in self neglect.
You will start to be able tomake a list of the things that
you need.
Audio Only - All Participant (31:24):
Mm hmm.
Dr. Mary (31:28):
So No, I love that, because I think, you know I'm a
recovering people pleaser and Iswear, I mean, I feel like
people that listen to thispodcast are like, we, we get it,
Mary, they talk about yourcancer, like, but it's true.
It's like, that's what got mesick.
I was so worried about whateverybody else thought.
(31:48):
And I didn't know, you know, Iread books on how to stop people
pleasing.
And I was like, I get it.
I want to stop like consciouslyI want to stop.
But I am burning out because I'mtrying to please everybody and
it's literally an impossibletask.
If you've ever been online, youwill see not one person is
unanimously liked in this world.
(32:10):
Like it's not, it is actuallyimpossible.
And I think like, For me, somuch of like releasing
resentment was like looking atthings not as black and white,
like, okay, well, maybe mychildhood wasn't so great.
Okay, but what was okay?
And like, what was the intentbehind it?
(32:32):
And it's almost like, at leastfor me, when I really started
looking at it, and less likeanger, and more be like, man,
that's the place that thatperson was in when they treated
me like that.
Then I started feeling it.
Sadness for them and then itkind of started shifting and
then for me, it was realizingthe more I paid attention to
myself and my body and my cues,then I could be like.
(32:56):
Oh, if somebody doesn't, if Ican start, I love what you're
saying, because it's like, if Ican start recognizing how my
body reacts around certainpeople, I naturally put up
boundaries because I'm like, isit worth me taking on this
project for this amount ofmoney?
Right?
If I'm going to be exhausted, somy currency of my health and
(33:20):
time and my capacity forrelationships is going to be
limited.
And so that's the way I look atstuff.
And so the people pleasing isstill hard to work through.
But at the same time, it's thetapping into yourself and
learning and then it kind ofslowly starts kind of shifting
(33:40):
because you start naturally kindof doing it.
Cait Donovan (33:43):
Well, and I think it's important that we talk
about the fact that we peopleplease because we think that it
keeps us safe.
So it's still an aim.
Everything that we're doing.
that burnt us out were thingsthat we were doing to try and
keep ourselves safe.
And now we have to learndifferent safety measures.
And we have to learn that we canbe safe even when we don't
engage in our previous safetymeasures.
(34:04):
So one of the things that I tellpeople all the time, at usually
a further point and not in thebeginning of burnout recovery, a
little bit further down is, Iwant you to do something that
you assume is going todisappoint somebody at least
once a day.
Something really small, likesomebody's going into the
kitchen and they start walkingback and then you say, Hey, can
you grab me a cup of water?
So they might be annoyed ordisappointed or whatever, you
(34:26):
know, like, but they'll probablydo it.
And, and probably they won'tfeel anything.
Like, once in a while you'llhave some reaction, but most of
the time people are like, Yeah,no problem, and they just go do
it.
So, working toward disappointingpeople on a regular basis so
that you can start to understandthat you can take up a little
more space and people will stilllove you.
You are not going to beostracized for needing more than
(34:49):
nothing.
Dr. Mary (34:50):
You, I mean, it depends on the people you're
around though, right?
Like if you're But that's
Cait Donovan (34:55):
a good lesson too, but we're not looking for these
big, massive disappointments inthese crazy conversations.
We're looking for like one ofthe things that I did actually
not that long ago, my husbandand I were getting ready for a
hike.
The dog was ready.
The, you know, her harness wason, we were dressed, boots on.
And then I realized all of asudden that I had to go to the
bathroom.
(35:16):
Five years ago, six years ago,well, eight years ago now,
Jesus, the time passes.
Great, so eight years ago, Iwould have not gone to the
bathroom because I wouldn't havewanted to ask him to wait for
me.
Because I would have thought, Iwould have assumed that he was
going to be annoyed that he hadto wait for me to go to the
bathroom.
And then I would have gone onthe hike, which was a half an
hour from the house, a two hourhike, and a half an hour back.
(35:36):
And I would have been dying, soI would have been really
irritated when I was out there.
And then we probably would havegotten into a fight because I
was in a shitty mood, because,you know, like, da da da da da.
Because it didn't take sixtyseconds to go to the GD
bathroom.
So, I was sitting there and Ifound myself almost ready to get
in the car, and then I was like,you know what, I'm just going to
run to the bathroom before wego.
He goes, alright.
(35:56):
And goes out to the car.
And I was like, I've been withthis person for 20 years.
He's never been mad at me forgoing to the bathroom.
I still think he's going to bemad at me for going to the
bathroom.
So I practiced disappointing himin that little tiny way.
And if you disappoint people inlittle tiny ways and then
(36:18):
they're constantly blowing up atyou, well You got really clear
signs.
Then you're just, to me, whenyou start disappointing people,
your job is to gather data thatsays I can be safe here or I
can't be safe here.
Most of the time I can be safehere.
Sometimes you find out I can'tbe safe here.
I just can't no matter what Ido.
So I gotta go.
Yeah,
Dr. Mary (36:40):
yeah.
I mean, it, people pleasing, Ifeel like, it's also hard too
when you're around anotherpeople pleaser because I'm like,
where do they stand?
Are you sure?
You know, and so it's funnycause I find myself like.
Enjoying being around peoplethat are really direct.
Yeah.
Cause I'm like, It's easier.
(37:01):
Where, where are we at?
Like, where are we at?
Like, I don't, I can't, like thebouncing around just, I don't
want to guess.
I don't want to guess.
I want you to tell me and like,sure, it might disappoint me,
but I want that same flexibilityto write.
It's like, if I have a friendand I'm like, Hey, I am not
feeling well, or maybe they'renot feeling well, right?
(37:24):
I'm not going to get upset atthem for maybe canceling with me
because they're not feelingwell, because I know that
there's likely going to be atime when I need to honor my
body and rest.
And Rest and if they're upsetthat then I can't rest like then
I'm like, oh, okay.
So now I've disappointedsomebody right?
(37:45):
And so this like rigidity oflike, hey also You know going
both ways, but then if you knowif somebody's constantly
canceling on you and justdisappointed
Cait Donovan (37:54):
exactly like you said data Gather data, gather
the evidence.
I just had, um, I'm doing, I'mgiving a talk and it's in, in my
hometown, which is like superexciting for me and it's for,
it's for the chamber of commerceand, you know, but it's, and
it's a friend of mine that runsit and so it's, it's really fun
and my aunt called my mom andwas like, we were thinking about
going.
Is that weird?
(38:14):
And my mom was like, you know,Katie, like she's changed over
the past eight years since thisburnout.
Like if she doesn't want you tobe there, she'll tell you.
So don't ask me.
Ask her.
So my aunt wrote to me yesterdayand was like, me and your, I
have, you know, a lot of aunts.
She was like, me and your otheraunt, thinking that we wanted to
go, would that be comfortablefor you?
(38:35):
And I was like, hell yeah,absolutely.
But, she asked me, and she saidin her message, I know that
you'll tell me if it's not okay.
Oh.
Right?
So, she was already giving mepermission to be truthful, and
she knows that I'll be truthful,so she doesn't mind asking.
(38:56):
It just, not people pleasing,pleases people better.
Dr. Mary (39:00):
It really, I mean, it really does.
And it's, it's really hard forme when I have to give any
negative feedback or anythingthat could potentially
disappoint somebody.
But at the same time, it's like,there's something like, as you
start paying more attention toyour body, like anxiety builds
up, I feel like an energeticdysregulation and it's like.
(39:21):
I'll just all of a sudden getanxiety and I'm like, why do I
have anxiety?
What's going on?
And then I have to look at thesedifferent things in my life and
be like, Oh, because I used tothink anxiety was just me.
I thought it was a thing.
It's more of, it's a symptom.
It's a sign of a variety ofdifferent things, physiological,
emotional, whatever, right?
You
Audio Only - All Particip (39:39):
might
Dr. Mary (39:39):
be hungry and then you're like, Oh, I'm fine.
But yeah, so in summary, I mean,a lot of what we talked about
is, you know, when feelingburnout or feeling tapped out,
the first kind of steps like youwere saying to kind of look into
are like just listening to yourbody, like when you need rest,
when you're hungry, when youneed a break or whatever it is.
(40:04):
It's trying to honor that andlistening to that and then
looking into resentment.
Like where in your life maybe doyou have resentment?
And maybe it's your peoplepleasing, right?
You're doing all this stuff forother people, but they didn't
ask for it.
They didn't ask for it.
And if somebody comes up to meand they're like, Oh, I did all
these things, you know,whatever.
It's like, well, I didn't ask.
(40:26):
I didn't ask.
And so I didn't know to showappreciation.
And so it's like this chronickind of disappointment cycle.
And so it, I think that's spoton is like, where in your life,
if you're dealing with.
You're just feeling tapped out.
You feel like you're just notconnected.
You don't have capacity foranything.
(40:47):
Look at, yeah, your resentment,where are you holding on to
things?
Because it's so easy to justfocus on that.
And then energetically youattract this negativity as well.
And then with that, then yourimmune systems get shot and then
that you can't fight thesethings.
So like you're saying, it's justthis whole cascade of stuff.
Cait Donovan (41:06):
So think about how heavy resentment is as an
emotion.
When you work through it andmake different choices, you gain
energy like that.
Dr. Mary (41:16):
You feel lighter.
Cait Donovan (41:18):
Yeah, immediately.
Dr. Mary (41:19):
It's crazy.
So how can people reach you ifyou want to explain what your
services are and a little bitabout yourself so people can
know how to reach out?
Cait Donovan (41:30):
Yeah.
So, uh, we do group coachingthrough my business, one on one
coaching with me or with mydirector of coaching, Sarah
Vosen, who's incredible.
And the best way to find us, um,is, well, also keynotes, blah,
blah, blah.
You can find out all the thingsonline.
I don't need to tell you all thethings, but the best place to
find us is Fried the BurnoutPodcast.
That's the core of everything wedo, the center of our worlds,
(41:50):
and we'll have the links toanything you could possibly
imagine.
Dr. Mary (41:54):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on.
This was awesome.
Thank you for having me.
You've been listening to TMITalk with your host, Dr.
Mary Grinberg.
Make sure to subscribe whereveryou get your podcasts.
To learn more about Dr.
Mary, head on over todrmarygrinberg.
com.
And make sure to follow Dr.
Mary at DrMaryPT on all socialchannels.
(42:14):
To learn more about Dr.
Mary's integrative practice forpain relief in Austin, Texas,
head on over to resilient rx.
com.
Thanks for listening!
Hello everyone and welcome back to TMI
Talk with Dr.
Mary.
Today we are going to be talkingabout how not listening to our
body's cues and resentment cancause burnout.
And this can lead to a cascadeof a bunch of other symptoms.
And in my experience, I findthis can happen in all different
(00:21):
phases of life.
But And everybody experiences itdifferently.
So if you feel like you'retapped out, if you feel like you
just don't have capacity foranything and you're on edge and
you're just not feeling well,this is going to be an episode
to listen to.
And so today I have CaitDonovan.
On the podcast.
She is the host of fried theburnout podcast.
(00:43):
She's also an internationalkeynote speaker and author of
the book bounce back abilityfactor.
Her creative burnout recoverysolutions have been featured on
podcasts and online magazines,such as.
Forbes, NPR, and the New YorkPost, and is also in companies
such as Clorox and Pepsi.
On top of all of that is shealso is an acupuncturist and
(01:07):
blends the Eastern medicine sideof this into her burnout
program.
So without further ado, we aregoing to move into the podcast.
Ready to tackle the topics thatyou've been curious about but
never felt comfortable asking?
With a straightforward, nononsense perspective on life,
blended with candid stories anda healthy dose of humor, Dr.
(01:28):
Mary Grimberg cuts through thefluff and addresses the
conversations we all need tohave on TMI Talk, where no
subject is too taboo.
Our bodies, our minds, andeverything in between.
Now here's your host, Dr.
Mary.
Dr. Mary (01:46):
Welcome Cait to the show.
I'm happy to have you here.
I'm super excited to be here.
Yeah.
So we're just going to jumpright in with some questions and
go from there.
Sound good?
Let's do it.
All right.
So we were just talking beforewe jumped on here about how
you're an acupuncturist as well.
And so what inspired you totransition from practicing as an
(02:11):
acupuncturist to focusing oneducating people about burnout?
Cait Donovan (02:16):
Two things.
I burnt out and COVID crashed mybusiness.
Dr. Mary (02:21):
Yeah.
I mean, not laughing at
Cait Donovan (02:23):
that, but I
Dr. Mary (02:23):
just, yeah, I mean,
Cait Donovan (02:25):
I, I moved back to the States a year before COVID
started and I didn't have astrong enough patient base to
last through the pandemic.
And I was already building aspeaking career after having
recovered from burnout andrealizing how many gaps there
were in the stories that werehappening around burnout,
especially at the time.
This was 20, you know, 2019 Iwrote my book in 2018.
(02:46):
Um, the, the combination of meburning out, seeing the gaps and
then COVID closing downacupuncture for me, it was like,
it's, it's now or never time tojump.
Dr. Mary (02:56):
Yeah.
It's like, it's one of thosethings where maybe probably in
the moment, if this is for likeyou, like what happened to you
is something similar to me islike the doors close and then
it's just like, Oh, the optionshere.
Okay.
Let's, let's do it.
Audio Only - All Particip (03:11):
Yeah.
Dr. Mary (03:12):
Was that shocking or was it more of, okay, like, how
did you take that?
Uh, the
Cait Donovan (03:18):
switch on an identity level was really hard
for so, such a big portion of mylife.
I was like, well, I'm anacupuncturist.
That's what I am.
That's who I am.
That's everything I am.
Herbalist, acupuncturist, doctorof Chinese medicine, you know,
(03:42):
and, um.
I had fought for it, because sooften people are like, Accumen
insurance, does that doanything?
And I'm like, no, I just takepeople's money for a good time.
Dr. Mary (03:53):
And stick needles in them for fun.
And stick
Cait Donovan (03:54):
needles in them.
And I mean, there are muchbetter ways to earn money, trust
me.
Like, I would do something elseif I was going to be a
charlatan.
I'd be a much better charlatanthan this, um, if I was going to
do that.
And so, but you do have to, itis something that needs to be
defended often.
And people don't typically havemalintent.
They're just actually curious.
But you do have to then come upwith defenses for this thing
(04:20):
that you do.
So I had spent so much timefighting for acupuncture.
That leaving it behind was,like, a little confusing, a
little overwhelming.
I was awkwardly happy that I hadfinished paying off my student
loan bills because I felt likeat least I paid for my
acupuncture degree, which is amaster's degree, it's four years
long, it's expensive.
(04:41):
I paid for that with money thatI made doing the thing that I
paid to learn how to do.
Yeah, so that kind of felt likeat least that little bow is
tied.
But it was a really hardtransition.
Dr. Mary (04:53):
Well, I think, you know, anybody that's listening
to this can also think as well,you know, we're in a time where
people are experiencing massiveburnout in every aspect of their
lives.
And a root cause of a lot ofthis is burnout in the
workplace.
And so I think.
It's good for people to hearlike, Hey, I went through
(05:15):
acupuncture school, or maybe youwent to law school or PT school
or whatever school you went to.
And you were like, this isn'tworking for me.
And I know that I've seen thisin physicians, especially where
they're just burnt out, but theywent to salt, like so much extra
schooling that it's just, Ithink it's hard to have that
shift of being like, okay, I'mnot going to practice anymore
(05:36):
because I've made thiscommitment.
Right.
But.
Also, your, your background asan acupuncturist really, even
though it's not acupuncture thatyou're doing now, like that
skill set is incredibly useful.
So it's transferable, you know,from that
Cait Donovan (05:55):
aspect.
And this is something that Italk about with my clients all
the time.
Like the identity, letting go ofpart of your identity because
it's time to pivot intosomething new is really
complicated and involves griefand you can't, if you're gonna
do it, you have to accept thatthere is an emotional component
to it that you have to livethrough.
(06:16):
You're not just gonna likechange your mind and walk away.
Like you're gonna have to gothrough a process and that's
fine.
As long as you know it's comingand can prep for it and you have
some sort of plan to workthrough it.
But most people that burn outhave some sort of identity
crisis alongside.
Dr. Mary (06:33):
Oh, of course.
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's, you chooseyour heart, right?
Like for PT, you can go and workin corporate indefinitely for
the rest of your life, but like,you're going to be in the clinic
like likely 50 hours a week,treating two to four people an
hour, maybe more indefinitely.
That's hard for a long period oftime, or you can branch off on
(06:56):
your own and that's going to behard.
It's going to, I mean, there'salways going to be hard, but
it's going to be harder for ashorter period of time for a
long term gain.
I think people are so fearful ofthat initial resistance because
if you, if we know what thatresistance is going to be there
and leaning into it, I sawsomething today.
It was like, it's not courage orfear.
(07:17):
It's courage and fear.
Cait Donovan (07:21):
Well, I think the thing about when you're burnt
out is that that's a really bigask.
You don't have the emotional, orphysical, or mental, or
energetic resilience to do thethings that are required to make
the bold move initially.
You, uh, you, physically, likeon a mitochondrial level, you
just don't got it.
(07:41):
You're tapped out.
You're tapped out.
You're burnt out.
That's literally what it maymean.
You're done
Dr. Mary (07:47):
toast.
Cait Donovan (07:48):
Yeah.
You're still alive, but likeyou're not really living.
Dr. Mary (07:52):
Yeah, I, I, I get it.
I've, I went through this, youknow, I've, I've been through
this.
This was my 2018 just branchingout of corporate.
You know, and then, and thenthere's also different phases of
grief and stuff too, as yougrow.
And then there's a past thatlike, Oh, even me as a business
owner.
Now, the way that I look atthings, the way that I, that I
(08:15):
hire, it's so different than Idid, you know, in 2018 and 2019.
It's just, there's, there'sthese insane amounts of growth
too, to go through from thosesteps.
And so from, Are there specific,so from an Eastern medicine
practice, right, what have youfound to be helpful from that
(08:40):
level for managing or preventingburnout?
Cait Donovan (08:45):
So I'll start by saying that I don't believe for
the majority of people thatburnout prevention is like
really a thing unless you'veburnt out and recovered, and
then you've put in place effortsand tools to avoid burning out
again, but initial burnoutprevention, one of the reasons
that a lot of people end upburnt out is because they have
(09:06):
really low levels ofinteroception, And this is a
brain development issue fromchildhood trauma.
So a lot of people withchildhood trauma during any year
before the age of nine, duringpeak neural development, part of
their brain won't develop fully.
And that part, part of that iswhat's responsible for your
ability.
Interoception is your You knowthis probably, but for other
(09:29):
people, interoception is yourability to notice and feel what
your body is doing so that youcan respond appropriately.
It's how you build self trust.
It's how you calm your nervoussystem in the most basic way.
Like, people are teaching allthese wacky somatic exercises
when really you need to like peewhen you need to pee.
Dr. Mary (09:48):
Oh, totally.
I mean, I'm about the somaticstuff myself, but I'm also like,
We have to understand why we gotto that place.
It's like breath work too.
Breath work is a tool.
Somatic exercises are a tool.
Right?
I saw something the other day onInstagram that was like, We are
not talking about why somebodyneeds breath work for an hour a
(10:11):
day to function.
Right?
Breath work is wonderful.
But it's
Cait Donovan (10:16):
magical, so is somatic work.
Yes.
It is magical.
However, if you do that work andthen you're still not drinking
when you're thirsty, not peeingwhen you have to pee, not
resting when you're tired, notclosing your eyes when your eyes
are fatigued from looking at ascreen, not moving when you're
antsy, if you're not heeding thebasic core messages from your
(10:38):
body of just, for normal level,for normal functioning.
If you're not doing that, then alot of the other stuff doesn't
work.
So, the, answering the firstpart of that question, I don't
really believe in burnoutprevention because most of us
are never going to notice thatwe're on our way to burnout
because our interoception isn'tstrong enough for us to notice
all the red flags until everysingle one of them is up at the
(11:00):
same time and they're all onfire.
Dr. Mary (11:02):
I mean, it's, it's the pain of it, right?
It's, I Maybe there's beenpeople out there.
I think I'm a little bit yet tosee somebody that hasn't gone
through immense amount of painto make a drastic change.
I mean, maybe there, maybe thereare people, it has to feel like
kind of what you're saying, allthe doors close.
You're just like, I'm tap.
(11:23):
Tapped out.
I am done.
I can't, I have no capacity.
So if you're listening to this,you're like, I have no capacity.
I don't want to talk to myfriends.
I'm up to here at work.
My kids always need me.
Maybe my partner's there, butmaybe they can't show up either.
Like we.
Um, and, and, and it's hardbecause I'm doing a lot of inner
(11:49):
work to kind of work throughthis, but I still have my own
traumas and my fears and stuff.
So when somebody else is burntout, even though they aren't
thinking clearly or stuff, I canstill be like, Oh my God.
And I have to sit through thatand be like, Oh, that wasn't.
That wasn't personal, but itfelt like that.
And so it's also putting outthis energy of negativity and
(12:12):
anger, and it perpetuates withwhat's really even going on in
our country as well.
You know, people just don't havecapacity right now.
Cait Donovan (12:21):
People just don't.
So, so that that's part one ofanswering that question.
The other part of answering thatquestion, the there's, I did
another degree in bio behavioralhealth after I moved back to the
States that really complementseverything I know in Chinese
medicine, but from the Westernperspective and this bio
behavioral health degree wasbasically how stress affects
every system of the body,genetic, epigenetic, psychology,
(12:42):
neurology, sociology, all thethings, epidemiology,
everything.
So It was fascinating to do, tohave, like, both sides of those
things.
And one of the things that Inoticed is that in Chinese
medicine, everything is, um,circular and connected.
There's no, like, straightlines.
There's not, like, A plus Bequals C.
And if you look at burnoutinformation from some of the
(13:03):
biggest voices in the burnoutworld, they're saying the root
cause of burnout is X.
And every time I read it, I'mlike, girl, no.
Yeah.
Because there's no such thing asa singular root cause of
burnout.
There are a multitude of factorsthat pile on each other and
increase your vulnerability toburnout until The straw breaks
(13:26):
the camel's back.
And in Chinese medicine,everything is always looked at
holistically.
So we're always looking at allthe different reasons that
something might come into play.
Something from work, somethingfrom traits, something from
family, something from culture,something from environment,
something from food, somethingfrom health, something from, you
know, all these little piecesthat come together to create a
(13:46):
vulnerability or a resilience toburnout either way.
And some people do have a higherresilience because of all the
factors that ended up in theirmain bucket.
Audio Only - All Participan (13:56):
And
Cait Donovan (13:56):
some of us just don't.
So, this basic thinking, thisbasic idea, way of considering
the body in a more holisticfashion is the biggest thing
that I take with me from thisEastern perspective to say, hey,
like, all of this stuff matters.
And then, the next piece of thatis, so it doesn't matter where
(14:18):
you start.
Because if everything affectseverything affects everything,
then you should be able to workon the thing that's easiest
first for you.
And when you work on thateasiest thing, it should
naturally create an opening towork on the next thing that
really matters for you, whichwill naturally create an opening
to work on the next thing.
And when you've worked on thosethree things, four other things
(14:39):
will have already beenalleviated because everything is
connected to everything, whichis connected to everything.
So, it takes a lot of thepressure off, like you're not
going to have to fill everysingle bucket that's wrong.
You're going to have to reallyfocus on one, two, or three of
the buckets, and the other threeare going to get filled.
So, it takes a lot of pressureoff what actually needs filling.
(15:01):
to happen.
Dr. Mary (15:03):
Well, I think it's also exactly like what you're
saying.
I get really frustrated with thewellness culture of like, now we
went from this hustle culture tolike do breath work a million
times a day.
And then, um, you know, let's,let's heal our gut.
Let's do all these things.
And I'm like, that's great.
Great.
Great, but I'm sorry if you'rerunning around with your head
(15:26):
cut off you are tapped out Itdoesn't matter what you eat your
body can't even digest it theright way Like your body can't
it's not as resilient to tostress It's not as resilient to
these other things and I I justfeel like I'm screaming this at
like the Just let's break itdown.
Cause it's the same thing.
It's like, I'll see people beinglike, Oh, this is, this is the
(15:49):
cure.
This is it.
And I'm like, if anybody saysone thing in any aspect is the
answer for you run, because theydon't know you.
They don't know your body.
They don't know your trauma.
They don't know your experiencein life and what you've been
through.
So no, and it goes.
It goes that way becausebasically, I mean, this is what
(16:09):
I talk to my patients about thatare dealing with chronic health
issues, like either chronicillness or chronic pelvic pain,
a variety of these things, andI'm like, we have to learn how
to re engage our body, and it'sreally, this hustle culture has
really taken a toll on us, andI'm sorry, a vitamin D
(16:30):
supplement's not going to helpif
Cait Donovan (16:32):
you're not.
And at the same time, so I tellpeople this all the time, like,
if You're calling me forcoaching, but you haven't done
blood work yet, and we find outsix months later that you have
like no vitamin B12 and novitamin D.
I don't want to work on yourmindset when your body doesn't
have the fuel it needs tofunction.
So, like, yes, and yes, always,yes, and yes, and more, and
(16:55):
more, please.
Like, it just keeps connecting.
Dr. Mary (16:59):
Yeah, totally.
I was just talking to a patientabout this this week.
Hey, we can work on the mindsetstuff.
It's almost like clearingphysiologically first, right?
If you've got estrogendominance, right?
If you've got thyroid issues, ifyou've got vitamin deficiencies,
right?
Say all of those are like, saythose are good, right?
(17:22):
Then we can work on thosethings.
But there is a piece where like,when my hormones have been
dysregulated in the past, Idon't, I can't, you feel crazy.
Cause you're just like, I can'tget my, why can't I get myself
to do this?
And you know, the tactics I'mlike, we need to look at
physiologically then what's,what's going on.
But I was more saying like, youknow, any supplement just to
(17:45):
kind of whatever.
Cait Donovan (17:46):
No, I know.
But, and I think it was perfectthat you said that because it
just goes into the next exampleand it just like, I think that's
the thing about burnout ingeneral is that Like, in Chinese
medicine, it's really normal if,and it's the same for you, this
is a really similar, because ofthe specific work that you do,
it makes, this makes, will makea lot of sense for you to, if I
(18:08):
have five patients that havemigraines in Chinese medicine,
all five of those patients arelikely in Chinese medicine to
have a different diagnosis,which means they have a
completely different treatmentplan, right?
Like, you could have fivepatients with pelvic pain,
right?
But different pain of adifferent quality in a different
area that requires differenttreatment and different, right?
(18:31):
And this is critical tounderstand about burnout.
The picture of burnout is socomplicated that we do have to
simplify it so that you havesomewhere to start.
But If you're looking online andsomebody's like that gratitude
like please gratitude is not thesolution on that first day like
you don't have the mentalcapacity or even the The
(18:52):
neurochemicals to feel thegratitude so that it will have
an effect.
I love gratitude It's a fabulouspractice.
We know that it benefits you butif you don't have the actual
flood of neurochemicals throughyour body when you are Like,
aiming to experience gratitudeintentionally, it doesn't do
anything.
Just thinking about it doesn'tdo anything.
(19:13):
We need the neurochemicals to gowith it, but when you're burnt
out, you don't have thoseneurochemicals.
Like, you don't have enough ofthem, so you're not going to get
there.
Dr. Mary (19:21):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's important.
Like the positive affirmationsand, you know, that doesn't
work.
Like it just doesn't work.
I mean, the gratitude does whenyou practice it and you're,
you're not.
In survival mode, you know, it'slike Mavs loves hierarchy of
needs, right?
It's like, if your basic needsare not met, we can't tap into
(19:44):
creativity.
Like I find when people areextremely burned out, like they
can't concentrate.
They can't tap into creativity.
They can't innovate.
They're just like, I can't, Ijust can't.
And I actually see this most,I'm interested to see what you
see, but I see it a lot aroundperimenopause and menopause,
(20:05):
like tapped out.
Cait Donovan (20:07):
Well, and I think there's there's some like
hormonal overlap and people arelike, well, is it burnout or is
it hormones?
And I'm like, or did thehormonal shift create another
vulnerability to burnout?
That was the straw that brokethe camel's back.
Dr. Mary (20:21):
Yeah, I think it's I think it's I personally think
it's yes, the hormone piece ismassive.
But I almost feel like it likekind of adds fuel to the fire.
Like the fires already there,the burnouts there, but that
that, like you said, that's apiece where they're like, I am
done.
Like I am done.
(20:42):
And how much of that, you know,from what ends I really think, I
mean, a lot of times it'sbecause That was the last piece,
and they're like, it'sperimenopause and menopause, and
I'm like, yes, and, yes, and,and so that's why I like the
nervous system regulation withthat, but nervous system
(21:04):
regulation, part of that islooking at your life.
Cait Donovan (21:07):
The best thing you could ever do for nervous system
regulation is pee when you haveto pee and drink when you're
thirsty and do like, this iswhen we're back.
to yes, you can pay somebody tolearn magical somatic exercises
and somatic exercises are superhelpful.
And there are ways of sensingyour body and moving through
your body mentally that areincredibly helpful, but it's
(21:28):
much easier for you to tap intothose things if you're already
trying to listen frequentlyenough that you can catch the
base signals.
Dr. Mary (21:37):
Yeah, I would say, you know, um, I see this a lot too,
when people are burnt out,they're not body aware.
So they're unaware of how to doan exercise.
They're like, like, I can't feelthis muscle working.
Cait Donovan (21:49):
And I'm like, they don't have interoception, which
is why they burn out, which iswhy I don't believe in burnout
prevention because they werenever going to feel the things
right.
So we're, and then we're, we're,we're cycling around the same
merry go round, you know?
Dr. Mary (22:03):
Well, I think, I mean, I like.
I'm just saying it in differentways so that when people hear
it, they're like, Oh, okay.
I see.
That's me.
Right.
And that's me.
Cause I'll get people come in.
They're like, Oh, I was told Ican't feel my glute.
My glutes aren't firing.
I'm like, no.
When people say glutes aren'tfiring, I'm like, you would
literally fall down.
(22:24):
Like you would literally.
Yeah.
So your glutes are firing.
You just may not be able to feelthem right now.
So there's, there's that piece.
So it's like, if you don't havecapacity, if, if you can't feel
your body, if you're not bodyaware, you're confused on what's
going on it.
And I've, I've been that person.
(22:45):
I mean, that literally my.
My whole thing was 2019 andlike, it was, it was okay,
tapped out, right?
And, and with like, I alwaystalk about Gabbermonte's work,
but it's like when the body saysno, and it says no, and
sometimes we're not evenlistening, even when it's saying
(23:05):
no, or like not sure how to evenaddress it.
Cait Donovan (23:09):
Well, we can't hear it in the first place.
We're not listening becausewe're not taught.
Even in school, we're taught toignore our body signals.
We have to raise my hand to gouse the bathroom.
And then sometimes you're goingto tell me, no, I'm five.
Dr. Mary (23:22):
I'm going to shit my pants.
You know,
Cait Donovan (23:25):
it's five.
Like, what are we doing?
Oh gosh.
Why are we teaching people toignore?
And are there kids that abusethe system?
Sure, of course.
But like, We are literallytaught our entire lives.
That's why people are like,well, women burn out more than
men.
And I'm like, maybe, or maybethe reasons for vulnerabilities
(23:49):
are just a little bit different.
And maybe women are talkingabout it more because I have a
lot of clients that are men.
Dr. Mary (23:56):
Oh, I think men just show it different.
I think they tend to show itmore in anger.
I think.
Or like, or a withdrawal, I'dsay.
Yeah.
Cait Donovan (24:05):
Withdrawal, um, is a big one.
And, I mean, yes, anger doescome up, and I think, like, one
of the three components ofburnout that has to exist in
order for us to say that it isburnout, even though it's not a
diagnosis, it still has rules.
Whatever.
World Health Organization, 2019.
Thanks.
Um, one of the things is, Youknow, emotional exhaustion,
(24:27):
which is basically an inabilityto regulate your emotional
state, which means you're eitherbursting into tears, bursting
into rage, bursting into so, butI hear this from both women and
men all the time.
One of the biggest complaintsand the reason that people
finally ask for help with theburnout recovery is I'm being
terrible to my friends andfamily.
(24:48):
I can hear myself doing it.
Like I, I know I'm doing it andI still can't stop myself.
Dr. Mary (24:55):
Yeah, I've been there.
Yeah.
It's and yeah, I think, like yousaid, I think.
You know, it's not just women,it's men too, and I don't, I
don't like to divide, um,people.
I'm just saying, oh, it's justwomen or it's just men.
It's like, no, we, and it's, andit's hard to even classify it
(25:17):
men versus women, right?
Because everybody shows emotionsor they process things like
differently, but I meanculturally there are kind of
Stereotypes of how people behavewhen they're burnt out.
Right.
Like kind of what I was saying,like emotional withdrawal.
Like I have been aroundwonderful men that when they
just can't process any type offeedback because they are
(25:41):
already tapped out.
And so that's when the lashingout happens.
Like, Oh, now you just tappedinto my, my worthiness by
saying, Hey, this, you know,whatever.
And so it's just reallyinteresting, like.
That it's taken us so long to betalking about this, you know, I
mean, I just think it's alsoevolved as, as work becomes
(26:04):
easier to do at home and, youknow, people are making more and
more money than ever.
And as a culture, I think wevalue so much our currency as of
money, not as much currency ofhealth and time and
relationships.
Cait Donovan (26:20):
And I think that, you know, when the World Health
Organization finally decidedthat they were going to say
burnout was a thing, it gave uspermission to really fully talk
about it.
Like, really fully say, well,there's a definition now.
I don't think it's ideal, butit's there.
At least we're startingsomewhere.
Dr. Mary (26:39):
Yeah.
And
Cait Donovan (26:40):
now we can talk about it.
Dr. Mary (26:44):
It's, it's, you know, it's giving, once people almost,
I don't know how other peoplefelt, but I almost feel like I
needed permission.
Like I needed to know it wasokay to sit when I'm tired.
Cause like you were saying as akid, I remember I got in trouble
for eating during class.
I'm like, I am like, I playthree sports.
(27:05):
I am hungry and I am growing andI got like detention for eating
in class or something.
I'm like, so I got scared ofeating and then not holding in
my pee.
And, and I don't think at thetime, I don't know if anybody
actually like meant to beharmful with it.
No.
But I think that it's tuning in.
(27:28):
Yeah, exactly.
And so.
What are like some key signsthat somebody can kind of start
paying attention to, like yousaid, eating when you want to
eat, drinking, like, going tothe bathroom.
Like if somebody wanted to, youknow, start now, like, what,
what would be like this littlestep they could do?
Cait Donovan (27:48):
Well, that's the first step.
So this is what we callfoundational self care and is
literally forcing yourself tolisten to your body and then
respond to it, or at least tellit.
In your mind, hey, I know you'vegot to do that.
I'm still in the car.
I'm going to be home in 15minutes.
I promise when I walk in thedoor, I'm going to go to the
bathroom.
Like, just having, kind ofhaving, starting a conversation
(28:10):
with your body that says, hey, Ihear you, I see you, my eyes are
tired, I'm on a Zoom call rightnow, and I cannot shut my camera
off because my boss is here, sowe're going to have to get
through this, and then I willshut my eyes for 60 seconds just
to give you a break, like, here,whatever.
But this, this foundational selfcare is.
For me, step number one, becauseI don't think you can do the
(28:32):
harder things without the energyboosts that you get from doing
those things.
So that's number one.
And the next thing for me is oneof my favorite things.
Look into resentment.
Because so many people are outthere being like, Gratitude
Journal saved me from burnout.
I'm like, girl, you weren'tburnt out if that helped.
(28:54):
Like, that's what burnout is.
Um, because we have such animbalance of neurochemicals and
we have brain shrinkage in ourforehead and in our amygdala, in
our limbic system, in ourhippocampus, like, there's, we
don't have access to everythingwe're supposed to have access to
(29:14):
when we're burnt out.
Your brain actually literallyshrinks.
You lose neurons, which meansyou don't have as many
neurochemicals, because youdon't have as many neurons to
use those neurochemicals.
So, we have to work with theemotions that are already there
and present.
Chinese medicine states there'sno such thing as a negative
emotion.
The only emotions that arenegative are the ones that are
unprocessed, untransformed,ignored, etc.
(29:37):
So as long as we use it forsomething, it's useful.
That's it.
And resentment is the emotionthat I find to be the most
common.
And when we really dig into itand pay attention to where it's
popping up, it teaches us one oftwo things always.
One, your boundaries are messedup.
(30:00):
Two, you've abandoned yourself,or you've engaged in self
neglect.
Intentionally, but maybesubconsciously.
If you can learn that, Andyou've already regained some
energy because you're using yourbody the way that you're
supposed to and you're payingattention and creating a
trusting relationship so you'reincreasing your internal safety
(30:20):
which calms your nervous system,etc.
And then you start movingthrough the parts of your life
that really aren't working foryou by paying attention to the
resentment.
You see the relationships thatare off.
You see where you're overgiving.
You see where you're overstepping and possibly meddling.
Most of my clients are meddlersin some way, shape, or form, in
(30:40):
a people pleasing shape or form,most commonly, which doesn't
actually please people, it justmakes people annoyed, so then
they don't get the gratitudethey think they deserve for
being the meddlers and thepeople pleasers that they are,
and it's like this nasty
Dr. Mary (30:52):
cycle.
Cait Donovan (30:53):
It's a nasty cycle, but resentment can break
it down because you start to seethe boundary and you start to
see, most people that burn out,I think, do not know, in
addition to being able to feeltheir bodies, they don't really
have a clear picture of whattheir wants, needs, desires, and
preferences are.
When you look at the second partthat resentment teaches you, all
(31:14):
the places you are abandoningyourself for the perceived
benefit of others.
All the places that you'reengaging in self neglect.
You will start to be able tomake a list of the things that
you need.
Audio Only - All Participant (31:24):
Mm hmm.
Dr. Mary (31:28):
So No, I love that, because I think, you know I'm a
recovering people pleaser and Iswear, I mean, I feel like
people that listen to thispodcast are like, we, we get it,
Mary, they talk about yourcancer, like, but it's true.
It's like, that's what got mesick.
I was so worried about whateverybody else thought.
(31:48):
And I didn't know, you know, Iread books on how to stop people
pleasing.
And I was like, I get it.
I want to stop like consciouslyI want to stop.
But I am burning out because I'mtrying to please everybody and
it's literally an impossibletask.
If you've ever been online, youwill see not one person is
unanimously liked in this world.
(32:10):
Like it's not, it is actuallyimpossible.
And I think like, For me, somuch of like releasing
resentment was like looking atthings not as black and white,
like, okay, well, maybe mychildhood wasn't so great.
Okay, but what was okay?
And like, what was the intentbehind it?
(32:32):
And it's almost like, at leastfor me, when I really started
looking at it, and less likeanger, and more be like, man,
that's the place that thatperson was in when they treated
me like that.
Then I started feeling it.
Sadness for them and then itkind of started shifting and
then for me, it was realizingthe more I paid attention to
myself and my body and my cues,then I could be like.
(32:56):
Oh, if somebody doesn't, if Ican start, I love what you're
saying, because it's like, if Ican start recognizing how my
body reacts around certainpeople, I naturally put up
boundaries because I'm like, isit worth me taking on this
project for this amount ofmoney?
Right?
If I'm going to be exhausted, somy currency of my health and
(33:20):
time and my capacity forrelationships is going to be
limited.
And so that's the way I look atstuff.
And so the people pleasing isstill hard to work through.
But at the same time, it's thetapping into yourself and
learning and then it kind ofslowly starts kind of shifting
(33:40):
because you start naturally kindof doing it.
Cait Donovan (33:43):
Well, and I think it's important that we talk
about the fact that we peopleplease because we think that it
keeps us safe.
So it's still an aim.
Everything that we're doing.
that burnt us out were thingsthat we were doing to try and
keep ourselves safe.
And now we have to learndifferent safety measures.
And we have to learn that we canbe safe even when we don't
engage in our previous safetymeasures.
(34:04):
So one of the things that I tellpeople all the time, at usually
a further point and not in thebeginning of burnout recovery, a
little bit further down is, Iwant you to do something that
you assume is going todisappoint somebody at least
once a day.
Something really small, likesomebody's going into the
kitchen and they start walkingback and then you say, Hey, can
you grab me a cup of water?
So they might be annoyed ordisappointed or whatever, you
(34:26):
know, like, but they'll probablydo it.
And, and probably they won'tfeel anything.
Like, once in a while you'llhave some reaction, but most of
the time people are like, Yeah,no problem, and they just go do
it.
So, working toward disappointingpeople on a regular basis so
that you can start to understandthat you can take up a little
more space and people will stilllove you.
You are not going to beostracized for needing more than
(34:49):
nothing.
Dr. Mary (34:50):
You, I mean, it depends on the people you're
around though, right?
Like if you're But that's
Cait Donovan (34:55):
a good lesson too, but we're not looking for these
big, massive disappointments inthese crazy conversations.
We're looking for like one ofthe things that I did actually
not that long ago, my husbandand I were getting ready for a
hike.
The dog was ready.
The, you know, her harness wason, we were dressed, boots on.
And then I realized all of asudden that I had to go to the
bathroom.
(35:16):
Five years ago, six years ago,well, eight years ago now,
Jesus, the time passes.
Great, so eight years ago, Iwould have not gone to the
bathroom because I wouldn't havewanted to ask him to wait for
me.
Because I would have thought, Iwould have assumed that he was
going to be annoyed that he hadto wait for me to go to the
bathroom.
And then I would have gone onthe hike, which was a half an
hour from the house, a two hourhike, and a half an hour back.
(35:36):
And I would have been dying, soI would have been really
irritated when I was out there.
And then we probably would havegotten into a fight because I
was in a shitty mood, because,you know, like, da da da da da.
Because it didn't take sixtyseconds to go to the GD
bathroom.
So, I was sitting there and Ifound myself almost ready to get
in the car, and then I was like,you know what, I'm just going to
run to the bathroom before wego.
He goes, alright.
(35:56):
And goes out to the car.
And I was like, I've been withthis person for 20 years.
He's never been mad at me forgoing to the bathroom.
I still think he's going to bemad at me for going to the
bathroom.
So I practiced disappointing himin that little tiny way.
And if you disappoint people inlittle tiny ways and then
(36:18):
they're constantly blowing up atyou, well You got really clear
signs.
Then you're just, to me, whenyou start disappointing people,
your job is to gather data thatsays I can be safe here or I
can't be safe here.
Most of the time I can be safehere.
Sometimes you find out I can'tbe safe here.
I just can't no matter what Ido.
So I gotta go.
Yeah,
Dr. Mary (36:40):
yeah.
I mean, it, people pleasing, Ifeel like, it's also hard too
when you're around anotherpeople pleaser because I'm like,
where do they stand?
Are you sure?
You know, and so it's funnycause I find myself like.
Enjoying being around peoplethat are really direct.
Yeah.
Cause I'm like, It's easier.
(37:01):
Where, where are we at?
Like, where are we at?
Like, I don't, I can't, like thebouncing around just, I don't
want to guess.
I don't want to guess.
I want you to tell me and like,sure, it might disappoint me,
but I want that same flexibilityto write.
It's like, if I have a friendand I'm like, Hey, I am not
feeling well, or maybe they'renot feeling well, right?
(37:24):
I'm not going to get upset atthem for maybe canceling with me
because they're not feelingwell, because I know that
there's likely going to be atime when I need to honor my
body and rest.
And Rest and if they're upsetthat then I can't rest like then
I'm like, oh, okay.
So now I've disappointedsomebody right?
(37:45):
And so this like rigidity oflike, hey also You know going
both ways, but then if you knowif somebody's constantly
canceling on you and justdisappointed
Cait Donovan (37:54):
exactly like you said data Gather data, gather
the evidence.
I just had, um, I'm doing, I'mgiving a talk and it's in, in my
hometown, which is like superexciting for me and it's for,
it's for the chamber of commerceand, you know, but it's, and
it's a friend of mine that runsit and so it's, it's really fun
and my aunt called my mom andwas like, we were thinking about
going.
Is that weird?
(38:14):
And my mom was like, you know,Katie, like she's changed over
the past eight years since thisburnout.
Like if she doesn't want you tobe there, she'll tell you.
So don't ask me.
Ask her.
So my aunt wrote to me yesterdayand was like, me and your, I
have, you know, a lot of aunts.
She was like, me and your otheraunt, thinking that we wanted to
go, would that be comfortablefor you?
(38:35):
And I was like, hell yeah,absolutely.
But, she asked me, and she saidin her message, I know that
you'll tell me if it's not okay.
Oh.
Right?
So, she was already giving mepermission to be truthful, and
she knows that I'll be truthful,so she doesn't mind asking.
(38:56):
It just, not people pleasing,pleases people better.
Dr. Mary (39:00):
It really, I mean, it really does.
And it's, it's really hard forme when I have to give any
negative feedback or anythingthat could potentially
disappoint somebody.
But at the same time, it's like,there's something like, as you
start paying more attention toyour body, like anxiety builds
up, I feel like an energeticdysregulation and it's like.
(39:21):
I'll just all of a sudden getanxiety and I'm like, why do I
have anxiety?
What's going on?
And then I have to look at thesedifferent things in my life and
be like, Oh, because I used tothink anxiety was just me.
I thought it was a thing.
It's more of, it's a symptom.
It's a sign of a variety ofdifferent things, physiological,
emotional, whatever, right?
You
Audio Only - All Particip (39:39):
might
Dr. Mary (39:39):
be hungry and then you're like, Oh, I'm fine.
But yeah, so in summary, I mean,a lot of what we talked about
is, you know, when feelingburnout or feeling tapped out,
the first kind of steps like youwere saying to kind of look into
are like just listening to yourbody, like when you need rest,
when you're hungry, when youneed a break or whatever it is.
(40:04):
It's trying to honor that andlistening to that and then
looking into resentment.
Like where in your life maybe doyou have resentment?
And maybe it's your peoplepleasing, right?
You're doing all this stuff forother people, but they didn't
ask for it.
They didn't ask for it.
And if somebody comes up to meand they're like, Oh, I did all
these things, you know,whatever.
It's like, well, I didn't ask.
(40:26):
I didn't ask.
And so I didn't know to showappreciation.
And so it's like this chronickind of disappointment cycle.
And so it, I think that's spoton is like, where in your life,
if you're dealing with.
You're just feeling tapped out.
You feel like you're just notconnected.
You don't have capacity foranything.
(40:47):
Look at, yeah, your resentment,where are you holding on to
things?
Because it's so easy to justfocus on that.
And then energetically youattract this negativity as well.
And then with that, then yourimmune systems get shot and then
that you can't fight thesethings.
So like you're saying, it's justthis whole cascade of stuff.
Cait Donovan (41:06):
So think about how heavy resentment is as an
emotion.
When you work through it andmake different choices, you gain
energy like that.
Dr. Mary (41:16):
You feel lighter.
Cait Donovan (41:18):
Yeah, immediately.
Dr. Mary (41:19):
It's crazy.
So how can people reach you ifyou want to explain what your
services are and a little bitabout yourself so people can
know how to reach out?
Cait Donovan (41:30):
Yeah.
So, uh, we do group coachingthrough my business, one on one
coaching with me or with mydirector of coaching, Sarah
Vosen, who's incredible.
And the best way to find us, um,is, well, also keynotes, blah,
blah, blah.
You can find out all the thingsonline.
I don't need to tell you all thethings, but the best place to
find us is Fried the BurnoutPodcast.
That's the core of everything wedo, the center of our worlds,
(41:50):
and we'll have the links toanything you could possibly
imagine.
Dr. Mary (41:54):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on.
This was awesome.
Thank you for having me.
You've been listening to TMITalk with your host, Dr.
Mary Grinberg.
Make sure to subscribe whereveryou get your podcasts.
To learn more about Dr.
Mary, head on over todrmarygrinberg.
com.
And make sure to follow Dr.
Mary at DrMaryPT on all socialchannels.
(42:14):
To learn more about Dr.
Mary's integrative practice forpain relief in Austin, Texas,
head on over to resilient rx.
com.
Thanks for listening!
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