March 17, 2025 • 56 mins
Dr. Meghan Teed, a physical therapist specializing in scoliosis and a dear friend to Dr. Mary, joins the podcast with Dr. Mary this week. The conversation addresses common myths about scoliosis, such as the misconception that scoliosis can't cause pain or that it can't progress beyond adolescence.
Dr. Meg mentions the role of hormones (especially during peri-menopause) and stress in scoliosis progression and explains how specialized physical therapy for scoliosis differs from traditional methods. The episode also covers when to consider using a brace, opting for surgery and non-surgical treatment options, the controversy around heel lifts, and the importance of finding a practitioner who makes you feel comfortable without forcing you into quick fixes.
Dr. Meg emphasizes the need to be wary of overly simplistic or quick-fix solutions presented online. Lastly, Dr. Mary and Dr. Meg discuss the potential connection between childhood trauma, chronic stress, genetics and scoliosis and how understanding your curve can help in managing the condition effectively.
00:00 Introduction to Scoliosis
00:24 Meet Dr. Meghan Teed
02:44 Common Myths About Scoliosis
04:44 Scoliosis and Pain Misconceptions
06:34 Scoliosis Progression and Hormonal Influences
09:20 Finding the Right Help for Scoliosis
17:14 Braces and Surgery for Scoliosis
26:18 Personal Experiences and Professional Insights
29:57 Pelvic Floor Assessments and Sensitivity
30:47 Critical Thinking in Continuing Education Courses for Those Who have Scoliosis
33:29 Trauma-Informed Care in Scolisis
34:05 Finding the Right Practitioner Who Doesnt Shame you
37:18 Genetic Factors in Scoliosis
40:07 Hormonal Influences on Scoliosis
44:35 Scoliosis-Specific Exercises
49:08 Heel Lifts and Leg Length Discrepancies
51:07 Summarizing Key Points
53:56 Contact Information and Resources
You can learn more about Dr. Meghan Teed here:
Her podcast: Ahead of the curve
Learn more about her and her services at her website https://thescoliotherapist.com/
If you are a health or movement professional and want to stay in touch with future episodes, webinars, courses, events and more. Subscribe to my email list here
I’ll see you in a week!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Audio Only - All Partic (00:00):
Welcome back to TMI Talk with Dr.
(00:01):
Mary.
I'm your host, Dr.
Mary, and today we're going tobe talking all things scoliosis.
This is a widely misunderstoodStood diagnosis, that many, many
people struggle with.
And there's a lot ofmisinformation out there, even
in the physical therapy realm.
And so I wanted to bring onsomebody who specializes in
(00:23):
this.
And today I brought in Dr.
Megan Teed she's a physicaltherapist who specializes in
scoliosis.
She also has a podcast calledAhead of the Curve, and she owns
Mindful Movement, physicalTherapy, and Pilates, and offers
in-person and virtual services.
And.
In this episode, we're going tobe talking about common myths
(00:44):
around scoliosis, what can bedone to help with scoliosis, how
physical therapy specificallyfocused on scoliosis is
different than traditionalphysical therapy, how hormones
and stress can play a role, whento consider surgery, how
different phases of our life.
(01:05):
can potentially affect scoliosissuch as during pregnancy or
during perimenopause and a lotof people with scoliosis tend to
be put within a heel lift And sosometimes that can actually
worsen symptoms So when to use aheel lift or when not to and
then finally Understanding howthe nervous system can be
(01:25):
involved.
So Not forcing specificmovements.
Maybe that your spine is notnecessarily ready for, and then
how to discern between what'sreal and what's not out there
with all of the information onthe internet.
So without further ado, we'regoing to jump into the episode
and I hope you enjoy it as muchas I did
Ready to tackle the topics thatyou've been curious about but
(01:47):
never felt comfortable asking?
With a straightforward, nononsense perspective on life,
blended with candid stories anda healthy dose of humor, Dr.
Mary Grimberg cuts through thefluff and addresses the
conversations we all need tohave on TMI Talk, where no
subject is too taboo.
Our bodies, our minds, andeverything in between.
(02:09):
Now here's your host, Dr.
Mary.
Welcome to the podcast.
Megan.
Happy to have you on again.
Thank you.
It's good to be here.
What?
Yeah.
The last time I was on was overa year, at least I think.
Probably because I took thatlittle hiatus, like nine months
or so.
So I think it's been over ayear, year and a half or
(02:31):
something like that.
And we talked more aboutpregnancy.
And so today I wanted to dive inmore to a lot of the common
questions about scoliosis.
Sounds good.
So, cool.
Well, jumping right in, youknow, what are some, there's so
many myths about, uh, scoliosisand I'm sure you're busting
(02:54):
those every day, left and right,like karate chopping them.
So explain to me, what are likethe most common myths that you
hear and then what's kind ofreality from it?
I think one of the most commonmyths I hear is there's nothing
you can do about scoliosis.
You basically have to live withyour situation or get surgery.
(03:17):
You don't really, you're notreally given any other options.
Um, And obviously I wouldn'thave a job or business if that
was true, um, every day, youknow, even in my own body, I
have scoliosis and I am alwayslike seeing changes in my own
(03:39):
body through the work that I'mdoing and other people are
experiencing that themselves.
So that's probably the.
Biggest myth, um, that Iencounter and I mean, there's so
many, how many do you want me tolist?
Just give me like your mostcommon ones, you know, because
(04:02):
you know, for people that arelistening, you know, um, oh, I
guess it would be the, if youare listening, you're the people
that are listening.
So anyways, in physical therapyschool, we're not talking about,
we didn't talk about scoliosis.
And we weren't taught on pelvicfloor dysfunction, so the
(04:23):
training that Meg and I have hadto do on our, you know,
specializations have had to beoutside of PT school.
And so, what, you know, even asa physical therapist, like, you
know, I know the basics aboutscoliosis and can guide people,
but, you know, you're in it.
And doing this every single day.
(04:43):
So what are some other things?
I know that I've even heard, Ishadowed a physician once years
and years ago who was apediatric orthopedist and they
were telling people thatscoliosis can't cause pain.
Yeah, that is another one.
I thought I was like, wait,what?
And, and, you know, I was ayoung little PT, so I didn't
question this orthopedicsurgeon, but I'm like, Oh,
(05:04):
that's bullshit.
But anyways, I just imagine theperson that has scoliosis and
you have a bunch of pain andyou're told that over and over
again, like it's insane to me.
How can you even like look at aspine shape like that and think
that that person wouldn'texperience pain because of the
asymmetries and differentloading, the compression areas.
(05:29):
I mean, obviously, they're goingto cause some discomfort in your
body, even if it's not likeExtreme, debilitating pain.
Yeah, I mean, I, I couldn'tbelieve it.
I mean, think about it in anyother body part.
If somebody's ankle was, like,completely rolled in, and
(05:49):
they're walking on the inside oftheir foot, and you go up to
them and you're like, that, thatdoesn't hurt.
Like, you're telling them itdoesn't hurt, you know?
And, you know, sometimes thereare cases where people, you can
look at them structurally and belike, ooh, are they in pain?
You know, they look like they'rein pain and they're not.
Yeah, that's a rarity though,but you, any of these blanket
(06:11):
statements, I think in medicine,just like really ticked me off.
Cause I'm like, then there'smedicine is science.
So it's constantly evolving.
And so there's no absolutes, youknow, there's, there's a lot of
high probability.
We can guess basically based ona specific data set of a
specific population, but that'sdoesn't, you know, always
(06:32):
translaTeed right.
And there's nothing in medicinethat's like a hundred percent,
you know, so, yeah, uh, one, oneof the unfortunate myths is that
scoliosis can't progress beyondadolescence.
Um, is a myth that can progressagain, uh, during pregnancy and
(06:57):
then once again and menopause.
Uh, those are the two mostcommon times that, um, it can
progress again.
And that's usually because ofhormone changes and shifts and.
In those, uh, levels duringthose times.
So you have a period of rapidgrowth during adolescence.
So that's why that's one timethat it can progress and change
(07:21):
a lot.
And then, uh, during pregnancy,obviously you have, uh, relaxin
that plays a major role inthings.
Um, you can use that to youradvantage though, during
pregnancy, that things are moremobile and able to shift.
Um, but if you don't.
(07:41):
Understand your curve orunderstand anything about
scoliosis.
You wouldn't know how to takeadvantage of that.
And then, uh, the final time isduring menopause.
So, um, there's a lot moreresearch thankfully being done
about menopause and just aboutthe genetic factors, um, that
(08:04):
influence scoliosis.
So hopefully there will be waysthat we can like just take some
additional supplements or Changethe way that our eating habits
are, that will help with, um,changing the, the progression.
Well, what kind of leading intothat.
(08:25):
So I treat a lot of people inperimenopause.
And so, you know, they'relistening to this and what, what
can they do to learn more abouttheir curve and their curve
type, because it can be.
daunting to know where to go andwho to talk to.
Obviously they can follow yoursocial media as well, and we'll
(08:46):
tag you in this so they canreach out and look into your
programs, but where can theystart?
You know, because I think moreof the fear is, is a lot around
pregnancy too.
But I mean, if they're, Becauseof similar, um, hormone changes
and stuff like that, or we knowthat what can they, how can they
(09:06):
learn, like, say, if I know Ihave scoliosis, and I have no
idea what type of curve I have,I have no idea that this was
even an option, like, what,where could they go?
Like, where could they start?
Um, I would say looking locallyis, is a good idea, doing a
little search and seeing if youdo have any physical therapists
(09:28):
who specialize in scoliosislocal to you.
One thing to be wary of is justgoing to a PT clinic and asking
if they treat scoliosis or knowhow to treat it.
Uh, because everybody will saythat they do, uh, a lot of the
times that will happen.
So look for specialized trainingin scoliosis, like the Schroth
(09:51):
method, Pilates for scoliosis,things like that.
Um, that would be the firstavenue I would go if I were
looking for help.
And then if you're not seeinganybody local to you that is
Certified or has any extratraining, then I would kind of
(10:11):
take that next step and goonline and do some searches that
way.
So, um, I will.
I would avoid going on likeGoogle and YouTube and doing
general searches about scoliosisbecause that can get a little
bit scary.
So, I mean, you can do that, butthen look at, you know, who is
(10:35):
writing that article or blogposts about.
What to do about scoliosisbecause it's not always
reputable.
Yeah, it's discernment.
I feel like there's a lot,there's so many people that can
put stuff out there now.
I've seen a lot of people thatare apparently pelvic health
specialists and they're not.
And there's no medical degreesand some of the stuff might they
(10:56):
be saying might be okay, butit's like, we're in an era right
now where there's a lot ofmisinformation.
I don't know if you've beenseeing like some of these, uh,
there's like three differentdocumentaries.
I mean, this is kind of like adeflection of it, but it was
like three differentdocumentaries on, um, people
faking cancer.
I don't know.
Yes.
I was.
Looking to watch that.
(11:17):
It was like apple cider vinegarwas one.
I just saw that one.
And then there's another onecalled Scamanda or something.
And she fakes, she fakes thecancer that I had.
And I was like, Oh my God,didn't know you could monetize
that.
That's crazy.
Like that you would even dothat.
But then they've set up theseprotocols and stuff, or I don't
know exactly what it is, but alot, I think a lot of people
(11:40):
were believing them andfollowing them and.
Just because somebody has a lotof followers, like sometimes
that does not translaTeed yeah.
You can also buy followers.
I don't know if people know thatyou can buy them.
You can buy comments, you canbuy likes.
So there's a lot of, there's alot of information,
misinformation that can be outthere.
(12:02):
So looking to see if people aremedically qualified.
You know what their degrees are,whether it's physical therapist
or chiropractor, physician, orthings like that, that they have
a license as well.
Yeah, and I, I would say whenyou are reading the information,
make sure That it's not justlike these black and white
(12:26):
statements, sweeping statements,like all or nothing type of
things, because that's usuallyfalse.
I think that, yeah, that's formost things.
I feel like, yeah, variability,person to person and, um, any
medical condition is not justblack or whiTeed type of
(12:49):
situation or the sweepingstatements like my program will
change your life and actually ohmy gosh I was just at the gym
this morning it was like lose 15pounds in 30 days and I was like
you guys it is 2025 like it is2025 like the world's on fire
and you're telling people tolose weight in 50 It's like, if
(13:10):
you're doing that, it's allwater, and it's just going to
come back.
Unfortunately.
Yeah.
If it sounds too good to betrue, it probably is.
It probably is.
And Hey, there are.
You know, I've seen a lot ofpeople make drastic progress in
my practice, and I'm sure you'veseen the same, but it took time
and it took effort and it tooklike a continuous, process of
(13:35):
doing that.
So any of the sweepingstatements, have you seen any,
like in particular, likespecific ones, like, Hey, your
spine will be straightened fivedays.
If you do the, it's like, Ohyeah.
And there's, there's a lot ofbraces out there that say that
it's going to straighten yourscoliosis.
(13:57):
And if anything, I mean, it'llweaken you because.
You're not using your muscularstrength to support yourself.
So you're relying upon thatexternal support.
And I think if anything, itworsens the situation if you're
wearing it all day, every day.
(14:17):
Um, but that, and yeah, thereare people out there.
Um, there's, I don't know howlegit this is, but there's like
some sort of machine thing thatpeople go and they use that.
There's this guy that used likea mathematical formula for their
school and I'm like, I don'tknow enough to say yes or no
(14:45):
about it, but.
To have results happen in, um,like a week or two is pretty
unbelievable.
And if you do get results, Idon't think that they're going
to stick.
Mm hmm.
You're getting them that fast.
You know, it's hard.
I, so many people ask me aboutdifferent things.
(15:07):
They'll be like, what do youthink about this gadget or that
gadget?
And I'm like, I, I literally, Ican't keep up.
Like, I can't.
And I am, if something works.
Like, let's see if it stands thetest of time.
Like I am all about it, butthere's so many.
gimmicky things that I've seenover the years, like even just
in pelvic floor physicaltherapy, it's like, Hey, you
(15:29):
know, I saw something posted theother day.
This person was like, thisprogram is better than in person
PT.
And I'm like, you just put downthe entire profession, be
careful, like, you know, and,and if somebody is putting down
an entire profession and I mean,Hey, there's good and bad PTs,
there's good and bad everyprofession.
(15:49):
And so, but to blanket, like putyour whole.
That's also something toconsider.
And so like this is thediscernment part of like
deciding like who do I want tolisten to?
Do you resonate with theirmarketing?
Are you, does it, is it veryfear based?
Is it, does it seem too good tobe true?
You know, I think those are,those are some big ways to kind
(16:11):
of.
Discern like, Hey, is thisperson right for me?
And is it not?
Because, you know, when you'rein pain, in pain and you're
scared, you're vulnerable.
And when you're vulnerable,that's when you're taking
advantage of.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The amount of things I've beenseeing about like, this will
(16:32):
help strengthen your pelvicfloor and do all these things.
I'm like, the issue is thatwe're so stressed that our asses
are tight.
Like it is just.
It's so true.
And that's the case withscoliosis too.
Yeah.
You're having so much tensionand stress in your life.
And in your body, it's going toperpetuate the things that are
(16:55):
already tight and wound up.
It's going to make them worse.
I never ceased to make you, uh,uh, yeah.
So with.
With that, I mean, you kind ofjumped into the braces and
stuff.
So when would somebody want touse a brace and following that?
(17:21):
When, when is it time toconsider surgery?
when should somebody consider abrace and or surgery?
In adolescence, it's a verycritical time to take action
with that.
Um, between the degrees of, Ithink they're, they're bracing a
lot earlier now than they usedto.
(17:43):
So, um, meaning, It's not quiteas severe of a degree.
So 25 now is about the degreethat they'll start bracing
adolescent, um, people.
And, um, there's all sorts ofdifferent braces out there.
Usually a firm brace is what'sgoing to be the most beneficial,
(18:06):
uh, firm brace.
That's three dimensional.
There are some braces that kindof turn you into a pancake and,
um, they just kind of flatteneverything out and they don't
allow for the D rotation tohappen, the opening to happen,
um, and the maintenance of the.
(18:28):
Kyphosis and lordosis of themiddle and lower back.
So just like the side curvature,you want to maintain that as
best as you can.
Um, because that will createother pain problems down the
line if you flatten out thoseareas.
So wait, so some of them areonly front and back, even though
(18:50):
the scoliosis is literally side,like side to side.
Oh, interesting.
This is, yeah, this is why it'simportant when these gadgets and
these things is to, to see,because I mean, how would that
straighten that would only helpsomebody's upright posture
wouldn't help the curvature,right?
Yeah, it makes sense.
And yeah, so that, um, that canbe problematic and even not
(19:13):
putting your brace on correctlycan be problematic too.
So like, if you don't have ittight enough, your curve is
going to try to escape whereverthose openings are.
And that's a good thing if theopenings are in the correct
positions, but if they're not inthe right spots, then it can
(19:33):
make things a little bit moretricky.
Um, and then for an adult who islooking for a brace or curious
if a brace will be helpful forthem, I generally recommend
those.
If You are a person who can'tstand for prolonged periods of
time, get your housework donewithout excruciating back pain.
(19:56):
And it's really limiting youthat way.
I would use that kind of as likea little supplement, extra
crutch where you put it on whenyou're doing stuff like that,
but wearing that all day, everyday that ends up again, kind of
taking the route of.
A little bit of a downwardeffect because it restricts your
(20:21):
rib mobility and your ability tobreathe and expand the ribcage.
And then that just increasesyour anxiety, um, and increases
your pain levels.
I mean, that makes sense.
There's, um, it's for pelvicfloor dysfunction.
If somebody has prolapse, Imean, it's to a lesser degree,
(20:42):
but of the spine, like a smallerversion of, of bracing, but
basically a pessary will go intothe vagina and hold the vaginal
wall up.
And it's the same thing.
It's like, well, It's not a,like people wear these all day,
every day.
So it's a bit different, butsometimes people just need to
put it in for a specificactivity.
And then like, so if they wantto weight train or something
(21:04):
like that, they can put it inand then take it out or whatever
the activity is.
So yeah, that makes, that makessense.
Where can they get a brace?
Like what, where, where do youfind them?
Adolescents, they need to go toan orthotist and have one
specially custom.
(21:25):
They do do that for adults now.
Um, Align is a good company tolook for if they have them in
your area.
They are throughout the country.
Um, and.
Yeah.
They do custom braces.
And then for adults, you couldjust, you know, go on Amazon and
(21:48):
get, you know, a supportivebrace that way.
And that would be sufficient forthat.
Like you could even just getlike a lumbar support type of
brace, um, for something likethat.
It doesn't have to be a specialcustom made one.
Oh, good to know.
When should someone considersurgery?
(22:10):
So, definitely a delicate topicfor people.
Um, like you mentioned with yourbrothers, if This is a person,
um, who's in adolescence andtheir curve is quickly
progressing.
That's a time that I would beconsidering surgery if, um, they
(22:34):
are 55 degrees and beyond.
That's usually the route inadolescence that, um, is
recommended to stabilize thecurve and make sure it doesn't
continue to progress.
That's because on average, ifyou aren't doing anything to
(22:56):
help your scoliosis, if you'rejust living your life and you're
a teen and your curve is at 55or more on average, that curve
is going to progress one degreeper year.
So it.
Ends up becoming a problem laterin life and then you might not
be a candidate for surgery bythe time, you know It's really
(23:19):
causing you a problem Yeah, Ithink and I don't know if people
are aware of like why likepeople need surgery, too It's
you know in in the case of mybrothers like it was their curve
was so bad And again, it was aprogressive disease But it's
like you can do all thisstrengthening and they don't
(23:40):
have the muscle capacity to doit.
So there's It was like a must,but the, like the compression of
like their internal organs andnot able to fully expand and
contract.
So like in a difficultybreathing and things like that
can make, make a difference.
So if somebody is, saysomebody's going through
(24:02):
perimenopause right now, right?
So say they're going through itand they hear this and or
pregnancy, we've also had thatepisode in the first season if
you guys, um, want to check thatout, but what.
What are some precautions orthings that they could work on
now?
So we talked about going tosomebody local.
(24:23):
You can kind of see, you know,not just like a generic PT
clinic or anywhere that sayslike somebody that specializes
in scoliosis.
Um, but what, what would thatlook like?
So say if somebody wanted tocome in and be preventative of
that, Could you give them anidea of what that might look
like?
Obviously, each practitionermight be a little bit different,
(24:45):
but I'm sure there's somecommon, common themes.
Um, so during that firstsession, no matter the reason
why you're there to address yourscoliosis, you kind of go
through a standard assessmentwith that person.
We take look, a look at thingslike your rib expansion, your
(25:08):
lung capacity.
Um, just getting some baselinemeasurements for that, uh, the
rotation that you have of thespine.
So that means when you bendforward and you reach for your
toes, that's the prominence thatyou see pushing out into the
skin.
So we assess that because thatcan actually improve, uh, with
(25:31):
exercise specialized for yourcurve.
And, um, we take strength andbalance measurements, baseline
photos.
And that one, you know, that canbe a challenge for people to see
their backs because who holds amirror or like takes photos of
(25:53):
their backs.
So a lot of people haven't seentheir own back and Maybe ever.
Um, so that can be kind of ahard thing to, to walk through
during that first visit, but itis important to have an
understanding of where you'restarting from and, um, having
(26:13):
that awareness so that you canbegin to make some changes.
Yeah, it's one of those things Ifeel like there's just like this
delicate balance probably of notscaring people But also like
they're neat just making themaware, but also empowered but
also not like hey, like this isfine You know, I feel like I
(26:34):
struggle with that sometimes inhealth care is like hey how much
to get people concerned But notso much that they're just
panicking and so I find thatthat that's a delicate balance
when it's something can besevere And I'm going to throw
this out there, that sometimesif you go to a scoliosis
(26:56):
specialist who doesn't havescoliosis, It can be hard, it,
um, it can feel, um, a littlebit like a personal attack at
times because that person has asymmetrical spine.
(27:18):
And then they're analyzing likeall of these things that you're
doing wrong, um, the way thatyou're holding yourself, you
know, it, it can be reallychallenging.
I actually just had, um, aclient of mine who's PT.
She has.
Severe scoliosis.
And she went to training had ahorrific experience where she
(27:43):
was the only person in the groupthat had scoliosis and she just
felt like nitpicked the entiretime.
And, you know, the instructorwas like looking at the way that
she was like picking up herbackpack or carrying her
backpack and like raised hereyebrows at her and she was
like.
That's awfully heavy, isn't it?
And she's like, this is mycourse material and my laptop.
(28:06):
I'm not like a fragile piece ofveal.
You know, I'm, I like tosnowboard.
She likes to snowboard.
She's Pilates instructor, youknow, she's very active person.
So she was like, I'm reallygrateful that I worked with you
before I went into thatexperience because You know, you
understand, and then you alsolike kind of prepared me for a
(28:30):
lot of what I went throughduring that time.
So, um, yeah, I don't know how,how to take that.
I think it's important to note,you know, I think.
Um, every condition can be alittle bit different.
I know that I've heard peoplesay with pelvic floor PT, like,
(28:52):
Hey, I don't want a PT thathasn't had a child.
And obviously it's different.
Right.
But like that kind of was adagger into my heart because I
struggled with infertility andI, after cancer, I'm just like,
I'm, I'm good.
I'm not having kids, but whenyou're actively in infertility
and you hear people say that,it's like, Oh, man, like that's,
(29:15):
that's a dagger, just cause Ididn't have a child.
Meanwhile, I do see though, howit's different with scoliosis,
because it's like, you know,scoliosis isn't necessarily like
some people accidentally getpregnant, but some people choose
to get pregnant too, right?
So there's in that, and it's,you know, a nine month period
(29:38):
versus like, Scoliosis is alifetime.
And so I could totally see howthat, I think it's just the lack
of being trauma informed, to behonest.
I think that.
We have an issue in healthcarewhere it's so easy to do that.
I mean, even in pelvic floortraining, right.
We'll do pelvic floorassessments and people start
(29:59):
talking about somebody's vaginaliterally in front of their face
and be like, well, this, this, Ifeel this and this, and then
you're like, is there somethingwrong with my vagina?
You know, Oh God, I can't even,my vagina is not even right.
You would have a vagina.
That's correct.
What's going on?
You know?
And I've heard the instructorsbe like, you guys have to be
(30:20):
careful.
These are people that we'reworking with here.
You know, even though I thinkfor some reason, when you take
these trainings, people justthink like, Oh, everybody's
fine.
Like we're all practitioners.
No, we're all human beings.
With heightened emotions rightnow, because there's a lot going
on in the world and a lot,everybody's processing a lot
right now.
And so add on any criticism andit's not, yeah, that's not,
(30:45):
that's not great.
No.
And I think it's exactly whatyou said in that non trauma
informed is super important.
And also there's nuance to whatyou learn in a continuing
education course.
You can't just.
Cookie, copy and paste with eachperson, the material that you
(31:06):
learned, you know, you have touse your critical thinking brain
and think, okay, neutral spineisn't.
Um, sustainable to maintain theentire course of the day, which
that's what you're taught.
And a lot of these scoliosisspecific courses is neutral
(31:29):
spine all the time.
So what happens when that personwants to go and play their sport
or go dance ballet, do somethingthey love?
Are you going to sit there andtell them that they can't do
that anymore?
Because that is a lie.
And, um, You know, that's goingto make things worse because the
(31:50):
more inactive you are, the morethat scoliosis is likely to
progress.
Yeah, it's a balance becauseit's like I do think sometimes
actually when I when I learneddry needling like 13 years ago
that the instructors were verylike a long time ago.
Yeah, I started needling likeright person.
(32:12):
I was like, I invented it.
I just took the needle and juststarted.
No, I, yeah, I was, I thinklike, cause I'd moved to Austin
2011 and took the training atthe end of 2012, beginning of
2013.
So I guess it was 12 years.
Maybe I lied.
So yeah, needling for 12 years.
But the first training I took,They were like, just stab the
(32:35):
muscle until it stopscontracting.
That's what they said.
Like, just put the needle in andkeep going until the, the
contraction stops.
And when I started doing that, Iwas like, everyone's flaring the
fuck up right now.
And they're blaming me.
And I'm not, you know, I'm a newgrad, right?
So I'm listening to what I'msupposed to be doing.
But then I go, no, no, no, no.
So I toned it back and was like,no, I'm going to go into the
(32:57):
muscle, get the twitch.
How do they feel?
Great.
Okay.
Next area.
I'm more gentle with it, but Ihad to kind of distill what I
had learned about how does thatactually translate into
practice?
Right?
You can needle somebody over andover, but that's just going to
cause the same issue.
You're just re tightening themuscle again versus sticking a
needle in it and allowing it tocontract and relax.
(33:19):
But.
Sometimes that's, yeah, it's,it's interesting when you go to
these, these trainings and stufftoo.
I went to a trauma training,trauma healing, um, training
about somatic healing, um, a fewmonths ago and it was not trauma
informed at all.
And I was like, this is crazy tome.
(33:40):
It's that's a big thing too, issometimes the trainings are not
trauma informed, which if peopleare getting into trauma to help
people with trauma, they'veprobably been traumatized
themselves in some capacity.
So then they're working throughtheir own stuff so they can hold
space for somebody else.
And so, yeah, that's, that'sinteresting.
I just went on a ramble.
No, it's okay.
(34:02):
It was all connected.
It is, it is because, well,it's, it's like.
It sounds like scoliosis, likeyou, it sounds a little bit more
like pelvic floor physicaltherapy too and it is very
intimate and it's very, youknow, feeling aligned with your
(34:23):
practitioner, feeling like youcan talk to them and you're not
being judged.
And if you feel like there'sthat, maybe some open
communication and seeing, butyou know, and seeing how they
react.
And that, that's the trickything because there aren't very
many specialists, so it's almostlike you get what you get when
(34:44):
you're trying to find somebodyin person, unless you're in a
big city, you don't really havethat many choices.
But there's not many in Austineither.
I'm thinking like the next PT,so I'm hiring somebody in the
next few months.
And the next person, I thinkafter that, I'm going to see if
we can get somebody that doesscoliosis, because I think
there's only like one or twopeople in Austin.
(35:06):
That's crazy.
I mean, I don't know.
I haven't necessarily lookedrecently, but last time I looked
it was, it wasn't, it wasn'tthat much.
But I do think that there is alot of the public might feel
like it's too good to be true.
Right.
Do you find that too?
Um, I kind of, it's definitelymore of the older generation
(35:28):
that is that way, where Causethey were told that?
They were told that and they'reNot as, um, I don't think they
do, I don't want to make asweeping statement about that
because I have plenty of peoplewho are in an older generation
who do their research, but Ijust feel like they are more
(35:50):
likely to take what their doctorsays at face value and not
question it.
Whereas our generation, we'relike, yeah, no, you know, I'm
going to.
And if I don't like what I hearfrom my doctor, I'm going to
continue to search for an answerthat suits my life and suits my
(36:13):
goals a little bit better.
Yeah, it was a different time.
My parents are like that.
It's like, like you have to,that's the discernment too.
It's like, okay, that's oneperson's opinion and now who
else can you go to?
And so it's, uh, yeah, it'sdefinitely interesting how each
generation has.
(36:34):
You know, handles their healthin different ways because
something it wasn't acceptableeven back then to challenge your
doctor It's not like you need tochallenge them and be an asshole
about it.
It's just like hey, what are theother options, you know?
So one of the other things thatI've I've found and, and want to
(36:55):
know your opinion of this isI've seen some emerging evidence
on how potentially lowprogesterone can cause
scoliosis.
What are your thoughts on thatand like, what are you, you
know, just tell me what youthink about all that.
Yeah.
Um.
Thank you.
So I just actually did aninterview with someone.
(37:18):
Um, his name is Dr.
Mark Morningstar, and he's doinga lot of research on genetic
components and factors thatinfluence the development of
scoliosis.
And there's two genes that cameup over and over again for being
higher, higher likelihood ofdeveloping scoliosis.
(37:41):
And that's I'm waiting to messit.
M.
T.
M.
T.
H.
It's M.
T.
H.
F.
R.
or something.
F.
R.
Yep.
M.
T.
H.
F.
R.
and C.
O.
M.
T.
Um, and both of those influence,like if you have those genes
(38:01):
expressing themselves.
On that person, then there havea higher likelihood of
developing scoliosis and thatscoliosis progressing.
So what he was talking about,and I'm like really terrible
with a lot of this stuff, likeremembering like the different,
um, genetic and yeah, it's awhole, I had to bring somebody
(38:25):
on.
Yeah.
To explain like estrogendominance, cause I was like, I
need you to break this down.
So then, and then tell, youknow, people, because this
isn't, I can help people withthe symptoms, but this is a
whole nother realm.
Right.
Yeah.
And it had more to do withmelatonin and with estrogen
(38:50):
being lower in those two things.
Lower in melatonin and actually,I think higher in estrogen.
So I don't know if that worksinversely with, Oh, okay.
Wait.
So they have high estrogen andlow melatonin.
Definitely low melatonin.
And I can't remember what it wasfor estrogen.
(39:12):
I can't remember if it was highor low for that.
Okay.
Yeah.
Well, have you seen anything onprogesterone?
I've, I've not.
Okay.
Um.
That doesn't mean it isn't athing.
No, I was just wondering becauseyou and I have talked previously
about this and how like there'sa there hasn't been anything
(39:36):
necessarily linking the two butchildhood trauma repeated trauma
while we're developing and alink between scoliosis and I
just wondered Have you seenthat?
You've seen that prettyconsistently?
I've seen consistently that andor, um, having a very dominant,
(39:58):
um, parental figure.
Usually it's a mother.
Really?
Oh, interesting.
Well, just on the reason Ibrought up progesterone too, is
because when in our estrogendominance episode that, um, we
talked about how, when underchronic stress, the body
(40:22):
prioritizes, so it goes down thesimilar pathway, the body
prioritizes making cortisol.
So the stress hormone overprogesterone.
And so I was just wonderinglike, as.
In childhood, so say that likethe repeated exposure to chronic
stress, maybe we thought it wasnormal at the time, right?
I was just thinking like, Iwonder if there's a correlation
between the two.
(40:43):
And I did do a little researchand I saw some, some stuff
popping up, but there wasn'tanything linking the two.
And I think because we justdon't know as much about
hormones as we, we thought.
And, and I think that there'sjust, A massive amount of
research that still needs to bedone and understanding of
hormones affect, um, thesesymptoms, but it's just, what
(41:07):
are some other correlations thatyou've seen?
A higher incidence of peopledeveloping scoliosis with
certain sports, like gymnasticsand ballet or dance, That's
usually, I think it's more of acausation type of thing than it,
not causation, um, correlation.
So people who are naturallybendy.
(41:29):
Uh, probably have connectivetissue stuff going on there,
more likely to go into thosethings to begin with.
So if you have that, and thenyou have also the predisposition
to developing scoliosis, I thinkit's just the combination of all
of that together.
(41:49):
Um, but there's no proven thingthat says that dancer gymnastics
causes scoliosis.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like I said, I didn't,there's nothing correlating
necessarily the progesterone.
Um, I, I saw preliminarystudies, but I just thought that
was interesting because then Iadded on the link of, okay, how
(42:12):
much of this?
Cause I just see, I'm just downthis whole path of like
understanding how.
So, you know, genetics can beexpressed, right?
There's one piece, but somepeople can still have the
genetic factors, but not expressthings.
Right.
And in the study that I've been,in the research I've been doing
with trauma and like needinghelp processing it and getting
(42:34):
out of the constant fight orflight, I've seen that those
are, you know, Like say we havetwo people with the genetic
factors, right?
So, I've heard them use theexample of smoking, right?
Not everybody that smokescigarettes gets lung cancer.
And there's, there's a highcorrelation, but if one person
has smoked cigarettes and theyhave like a supportive partner
(42:55):
and, um, their family and theyhave great communication and
support system, and then youhave somebody else over here
that.
smokes and is isolated or maybehas dealt with significant
trauma that they need helpprocessing and understanding how
to move through it.
This person's more likely toexpress it.
And so there's, there's juststuff coming out about, okay,
(43:17):
well, why in genetics, somepeople have stuff and others
don't, right?
Cause there's, there's multiplefactors.
And so I just think it'sinteresting to kind of start
looking into all of that andthat's not to like say, Oh, your
childhood trauma, like causescoliosis.
It's just more of.
Understanding, like, hey, howmuch the body processes trauma
(43:38):
and, like, what can we do tokind of help with that too.
And so learning about thenervous system and, and things
like that.
Like you said, if you'rechronically in fight or flight
too, you're going to be kind oflike tight and hunched over and
so how much of it is more that.
Right.
Right.
And you're internally windingyourself up, uh, you're trying
(44:00):
to protect yourself and guardingfrom whatever that trauma is.
There's a commonality here andmaybe there's not research on it
yet, but it is interesting tostart observing those things.
Um, so what.
What are your thoughts on, okay,so if somebody is listening to
(44:22):
this and they're like, hey, Ihave scoliosis and it's not that
bad, but how is, how areexercises for scoliosis
different than kind of likegeneric PT?
Exercises, scoliosis exerciseswill take into consideration
(44:43):
what your curve is doing.
So when you're going for genericPT, if you go in, usually you
have to have some sort ofsymptom or pain in order to get
there.
So they'll give you generic lowback pain exercises or shoulder
or neck, like wherever you'rehaving that pain point.
(45:07):
And that PT won't do anassessment of your curve first.
Um, that's what generic PT witha school as a specialist,
they're going to educate youabout your curve, what your
tendencies are and standing andsitting, um, that are
(45:28):
potentially feeding thoseasymmetries that you have
baseline.
And then they'll teach youstrategies for countering those
asymmetries.
Um, what I've found to be superimportant that I've made a tweak
and adjustment on, and throughthe training that, um, I've done
(45:50):
with scoliosis is instead ofright away trying to force that
person into a different shape,um, than they currently are in,
We need that permission from thenervous system first to actually
make those changes andadjustments, because if you go
(46:11):
in and you start forcing thingsand you don't have that
permission, then that's when itcan create even more pain if you
have it.
Baseline.
Um, and it can create pain ifyou don't have it baseline.
Um, I had somebody who went andshe's an adult and she wanted to
(46:34):
go to the specialist and do anintensive.
They do the adult bracing and itwas.
Just like very forcefulexercises.
The brace was like reallyshoving her into corrected
alignment.
And she came out of away fromthat and excruciating pain.
(46:56):
And she didn't have pain tobegin with.
Oh, um, we have to be smartabout how we're implementing
these things and understand thatthe person has been in this
shape for however long it's.
It needs to be more of a slowand steady process first, um,
(47:20):
take a look at areas ofrestriction all throughout the
body and see how you can teachthat person to release those
areas independently without yourhands on them.
Um, give them those tools toheal themselves and, um, then
begin working on slowly butsurely implementing the
(47:42):
corrective stuff later.
I like how you brought that thenervous system up with that too,
because it's like kind of whatyou were saying.
If, if you have a practitionerthat you feel like there's just,
it doesn't feel right.
Maybe it just, maybe they're notunderstanding or you just feel
something's off, right?
Your muscles are going to betight as well.
(48:03):
And then forcing somebody intosomething.
I mean, I've even seen it justfrom like a lighter degree of
like, even when you put like aheel lift in, yeah.
somebody, um, they'll put inlike a heel lift, right away.
like something drastic.
And I'm like, you cannot, you'vehad that.
This is why I have an issuesometimes with, and I have a
question with leg length foryou.
(48:24):
But say somebody doesn't havescoliosis and they're
immediately put in a heel lift.
I'm like, well, if you haven't.
Had pain for 40 years.
And then all of a sudden youhave back pain.
Now I'm not going to put a heellift in you.
If you've had pain your entirelife, and this is just ongoing.
I'm like, let's, let's considerour list.
Let's try it.
(48:45):
Right.
Cause sometimes it also can bemuscular tightness as well, but.
Even so, even if it's just alittle bit and then they go and
wear it all day, they flare up.
So it's like a little bit kindof at a time.
It's like new shoes, right?
So what, what are your thoughtson, uh, why can't I get my words
(49:06):
out?
Um, heel lifts.
Yeah, they are definitely overprescribed with scoliosis.
And you want to make sure thatthat person actually has a true
leg length.
Discrepancy and difference.
Most people with scoliosis, itappears like we have two
(49:29):
different lengths of legs, butin reality, that's not the case.
It's the rotation of the pelvis,it's tightness in the tissues
that are kind of pulling theinnominate up into the torso and
causing that to appear likethere is a difference.
So, actually taking a truemeasurement and seeing, hey,
(49:51):
does this person have a leglength difference or not.
But then if they do actuallyhave a difference, starting with
as small of a heel lift aspossible, like you said, um,
little insert, like just ageneric Dr.
Scholl's thing that you slip inand, and see how they, um,
(50:14):
respond to that and see if thatactually helps to balance things
out.
But usually it's not a truelike, like discrepancy.
For those people that don't knowgold standard of a length like
there's gonna be a standing xray But nobody really does that
so you can you measure well thePT or healthcare Practitioner or
(50:35):
chiropractor or whoever you'reworking with, it's the part that
you can feel on the sides ofyour hips, like right in the
front, and then you measure itall the way down to the top of
your inner ankle, that littlebone right there.
And you can at least get an ideaof that, even if it's just a
little bit, but.
It will look like you have alaying leg, but it's actually
the curvature of your spine.
(50:55):
So in, in, in essence, if youdid put a heel lift in there,
wouldn't it just reinforce thecurve more?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you, you want to be carefulwith, with those as well.
So, um, yeah, well if you wantto, well, I'll just kind of
summarize a little bit of whatwe, we said today and then I'd
love to, you know, have peopleknow your services.
(51:17):
So what we really went overtoday is, you know, the common
myths about scoliosis, whensomeone should consider surgery.
Um, I think it's reallyimportant to be understanding
when to use a brace in childhoodor in adolescence versus
adulthood, how finding the rightpractitioner is important, not,
you know, finding somebody thatscoliosis specific and how
(51:39):
sometimes it can be that, beingcareful with a certain
practitioner because it can feellike there's, there's,
Potentially judgment or forcingthings faster than they need to
be.
But that can be hard because notevery, there's not a ton of
scoliosis specialist.
And so in that just learningmore about your curve So that
(52:01):
way you can understand and helpprevent progression.
And then.
We talked about some potentialassociations, things that we've
noticed, that's not necessarilyconfirmed in the research, but
just something to be aware ofwith hormones and how that can
affect it.
And leg length discrepancy and,how not just everybody getting a
(52:22):
heel lift for that and theneasing into the exercise.
Cause this is going to taketime.
Actually, before I jump intothat, you did say that.
Before you jump into your, your,your contact info, you did say
that.
Every year it progresses like1%.
And so do you, have you seenthat it kind of halts and stays
(52:44):
where the curve was when, ifthey continue with more
scoliosis specific stuff or, andhave you seen that reverse at
all?
Yeah.
So, definitely a higher lightlikelihood of that halting, uh,
the uneven loading of the spine.
Um, and.
There is a chance that it canreverse.
(53:05):
I've seen it reverse like five,about five degrees for adults on
average.
Um, as long as that persondoesn't have osteoporosis, um,
you know, usually that's anotherindication that things are going
to continue to progress ifyou're not addressing that as
well.
(53:25):
Gotcha.
Yeah.
And there's a lot of stuff youcan do for osteoporosis too now.
And understanding even justbeyond medications, just.
Understanding how to, toweightlift, diet, a variety of
different things.
I'll have to have one of the PTsthat specialize in osteoporosis.
But we, with a lot of theresearch too is around like
(53:48):
loading.
Yeah.
Loading joints and getting usstronger.
So that way the bones get thatinput of, Hey, we need to build
more bone.
So if you want to tell everybodywhere they can find you about
your podcast and then yourupcoming programs.
Sure.
Yeah.
Um, you can find me, I have apodcast called ahead of the
(54:08):
curve that's on Apple, all thedifferent podcaster apps, and I
have a YouTube channel that isalso called, uh, no, it's called
the scolio therapist, but I havemy podcast on there as well
called the head ahead of thecurve.
And, um, you can find me onInstagram.
I'm the scolio therapist there.
(54:30):
Um, I am currently closed for myprogram for the Scoliosis
Strength Collective, um, but thedoors are opening fairly soon
for that.
And I have a free trainingcoming up.
I don't know if this will bereleased before or after that,
(54:50):
but it is March 9th and March13th.
It's called the CurveLengthening Lab, where I teach
you how to safely lengthen yourscoliosis and your curves
without increasing your pain.
I love that.
This won't be out by then, butwill they be able to access
that?
Like, will you have it?
(55:11):
It'll, it'll happen again in thefall.
Okay.
So getting, basically getting onyour email list to kind of learn
of.
of all the upcoming things.
Yeah.
So yeah, you have a wealth ofknowledge on your podcast.
So highly recommend if you guyswant to, if you all want to find
out more, um, about scoliosis indepth and in ways to help.
So thank you so much, Meg.
(55:33):
Thanks for having me, Mary.
Good to be back.
You've been listening to TMITalk with your host, Dr.
Mary Grinberg.
Make sure to subscribe whereveryou get your podcasts.
To learn more about Dr.
Mary, head on over todrmarygrinberg.
com.
And make sure to follow Dr.
Mary at DrMaryPT on all socialchannels.
To learn more about Dr.
Mary's integrative practice forpain relief in Austin, Texas,
(55:54):
head on over to resilient rx.
com.
Thanks for listening!
Welcome back to TMI Talk with Dr.
(00:01):
Mary.
I'm your host, Dr.
Mary, and today we're going tobe talking all things scoliosis.
This is a widely misunderstoodStood diagnosis, that many, many
people struggle with.
And there's a lot ofmisinformation out there, even
in the physical therapy realm.
And so I wanted to bring onsomebody who specializes in
(00:23):
this.
And today I brought in Dr.
Megan Teed she's a physicaltherapist who specializes in
scoliosis.
She also has a podcast calledAhead of the Curve, and she owns
Mindful Movement, physicalTherapy, and Pilates, and offers
in-person and virtual services.
And.
In this episode, we're going tobe talking about common myths
(00:44):
around scoliosis, what can bedone to help with scoliosis, how
physical therapy specificallyfocused on scoliosis is
different than traditionalphysical therapy, how hormones
and stress can play a role, whento consider surgery, how
different phases of our life.
(01:05):
can potentially affect scoliosissuch as during pregnancy or
during perimenopause and a lotof people with scoliosis tend to
be put within a heel lift And sosometimes that can actually
worsen symptoms So when to use aheel lift or when not to and
then finally Understanding howthe nervous system can be
(01:25):
involved.
So Not forcing specificmovements.
Maybe that your spine is notnecessarily ready for, and then
how to discern between what'sreal and what's not out there
with all of the information onthe internet.
So without further ado, we'regoing to jump into the episode
and I hope you enjoy it as muchas I did
Ready to tackle the topics thatyou've been curious about but
(01:47):
never felt comfortable asking?
With a straightforward, nononsense perspective on life,
blended with candid stories anda healthy dose of humor, Dr.
Mary Grimberg cuts through thefluff and addresses the
conversations we all need tohave on TMI Talk, where no
subject is too taboo.
Our bodies, our minds, andeverything in between.
(02:09):
Now here's your host, Dr.
Mary.
Welcome to the podcast.
Megan.
Happy to have you on again.
Thank you.
It's good to be here.
What?
Yeah.
The last time I was on was overa year, at least I think.
Probably because I took thatlittle hiatus, like nine months
or so.
So I think it's been over ayear, year and a half or
(02:31):
something like that.
And we talked more aboutpregnancy.
And so today I wanted to dive inmore to a lot of the common
questions about scoliosis.
Sounds good.
So, cool.
Well, jumping right in, youknow, what are some, there's so
many myths about, uh, scoliosisand I'm sure you're busting
(02:54):
those every day, left and right,like karate chopping them.
So explain to me, what are likethe most common myths that you
hear and then what's kind ofreality from it?
I think one of the most commonmyths I hear is there's nothing
you can do about scoliosis.
You basically have to live withyour situation or get surgery.
(03:17):
You don't really, you're notreally given any other options.
Um, And obviously I wouldn'thave a job or business if that
was true, um, every day, youknow, even in my own body, I
have scoliosis and I am alwayslike seeing changes in my own
(03:39):
body through the work that I'mdoing and other people are
experiencing that themselves.
So that's probably the.
Biggest myth, um, that Iencounter and I mean, there's so
many, how many do you want me tolist?
Just give me like your mostcommon ones, you know, because
(04:02):
you know, for people that arelistening, you know, um, oh, I
guess it would be the, if youare listening, you're the people
that are listening.
So anyways, in physical therapyschool, we're not talking about,
we didn't talk about scoliosis.
And we weren't taught on pelvicfloor dysfunction, so the
(04:23):
training that Meg and I have hadto do on our, you know,
specializations have had to beoutside of PT school.
And so, what, you know, even asa physical therapist, like, you
know, I know the basics aboutscoliosis and can guide people,
but, you know, you're in it.
And doing this every single day.
(04:43):
So what are some other things?
I know that I've even heard, Ishadowed a physician once years
and years ago who was apediatric orthopedist and they
were telling people thatscoliosis can't cause pain.
Yeah, that is another one.
I thought I was like, wait,what?
And, and, you know, I was ayoung little PT, so I didn't
question this orthopedicsurgeon, but I'm like, Oh,
(05:04):
that's bullshit.
But anyways, I just imagine theperson that has scoliosis and
you have a bunch of pain andyou're told that over and over
again, like it's insane to me.
How can you even like look at aspine shape like that and think
that that person wouldn'texperience pain because of the
asymmetries and differentloading, the compression areas.
(05:29):
I mean, obviously, they're goingto cause some discomfort in your
body, even if it's not likeExtreme, debilitating pain.
Yeah, I mean, I, I couldn'tbelieve it.
I mean, think about it in anyother body part.
If somebody's ankle was, like,completely rolled in, and
(05:49):
they're walking on the inside oftheir foot, and you go up to
them and you're like, that, thatdoesn't hurt.
Like, you're telling them itdoesn't hurt, you know?
And, you know, sometimes thereare cases where people, you can
look at them structurally and belike, ooh, are they in pain?
You know, they look like they'rein pain and they're not.
Yeah, that's a rarity though,but you, any of these blanket
(06:11):
statements, I think in medicine,just like really ticked me off.
Cause I'm like, then there'smedicine is science.
So it's constantly evolving.
And so there's no absolutes, youknow, there's, there's a lot of
high probability.
We can guess basically based ona specific data set of a
specific population, but that'sdoesn't, you know, always
(06:32):
translaTeed right.
And there's nothing in medicinethat's like a hundred percent,
you know, so, yeah, uh, one, oneof the unfortunate myths is that
scoliosis can't progress beyondadolescence.
Um, is a myth that can progressagain, uh, during pregnancy and
(06:57):
then once again and menopause.
Uh, those are the two mostcommon times that, um, it can
progress again.
And that's usually because ofhormone changes and shifts and.
In those, uh, levels duringthose times.
So you have a period of rapidgrowth during adolescence.
So that's why that's one timethat it can progress and change
(07:21):
a lot.
And then, uh, during pregnancy,obviously you have, uh, relaxin
that plays a major role inthings.
Um, you can use that to youradvantage though, during
pregnancy, that things are moremobile and able to shift.
Um, but if you don't.
(07:41):
Understand your curve orunderstand anything about
scoliosis.
You wouldn't know how to takeadvantage of that.
And then, uh, the final time isduring menopause.
So, um, there's a lot moreresearch thankfully being done
about menopause and just aboutthe genetic factors, um, that
(08:04):
influence scoliosis.
So hopefully there will be waysthat we can like just take some
additional supplements or Changethe way that our eating habits
are, that will help with, um,changing the, the progression.
Well, what kind of leading intothat.
(08:25):
So I treat a lot of people inperimenopause.
And so, you know, they'relistening to this and what, what
can they do to learn more abouttheir curve and their curve
type, because it can be.
daunting to know where to go andwho to talk to.
Obviously they can follow yoursocial media as well, and we'll
(08:46):
tag you in this so they canreach out and look into your
programs, but where can theystart?
You know, because I think moreof the fear is, is a lot around
pregnancy too.
But I mean, if they're, Becauseof similar, um, hormone changes
and stuff like that, or we knowthat what can they, how can they
(09:06):
learn, like, say, if I know Ihave scoliosis, and I have no
idea what type of curve I have,I have no idea that this was
even an option, like, what,where could they go?
Like, where could they start?
Um, I would say looking locallyis, is a good idea, doing a
little search and seeing if youdo have any physical therapists
(09:28):
who specialize in scoliosislocal to you.
One thing to be wary of is justgoing to a PT clinic and asking
if they treat scoliosis or knowhow to treat it.
Uh, because everybody will saythat they do, uh, a lot of the
times that will happen.
So look for specialized trainingin scoliosis, like the Schroth
(09:51):
method, Pilates for scoliosis,things like that.
Um, that would be the firstavenue I would go if I were
looking for help.
And then if you're not seeinganybody local to you that is
Certified or has any extratraining, then I would kind of
(10:11):
take that next step and goonline and do some searches that
way.
So, um, I will.
I would avoid going on likeGoogle and YouTube and doing
general searches about scoliosisbecause that can get a little
bit scary.
So, I mean, you can do that, butthen look at, you know, who is
(10:35):
writing that article or blogposts about.
What to do about scoliosisbecause it's not always
reputable.
Yeah, it's discernment.
I feel like there's a lot,there's so many people that can
put stuff out there now.
I've seen a lot of people thatare apparently pelvic health
specialists and they're not.
And there's no medical degreesand some of the stuff might they
(10:56):
be saying might be okay, butit's like, we're in an era right
now where there's a lot ofmisinformation.
I don't know if you've beenseeing like some of these, uh,
there's like three differentdocumentaries.
I mean, this is kind of like adeflection of it, but it was
like three differentdocumentaries on, um, people
faking cancer.
I don't know.
Yes.
I was.
Looking to watch that.
(11:17):
It was like apple cider vinegarwas one.
I just saw that one.
And then there's another onecalled Scamanda or something.
And she fakes, she fakes thecancer that I had.
And I was like, Oh my God,didn't know you could monetize
that.
That's crazy.
Like that you would even dothat.
But then they've set up theseprotocols and stuff, or I don't
know exactly what it is, but alot, I think a lot of people
(11:40):
were believing them andfollowing them and.
Just because somebody has a lotof followers, like sometimes
that does not translaTeed yeah.
You can also buy followers.
I don't know if people know thatyou can buy them.
You can buy comments, you canbuy likes.
So there's a lot of, there's alot of information,
misinformation that can be outthere.
(12:02):
So looking to see if people aremedically qualified.
You know what their degrees are,whether it's physical therapist
or chiropractor, physician, orthings like that, that they have
a license as well.
Yeah, and I, I would say whenyou are reading the information,
make sure That it's not justlike these black and white
(12:26):
statements, sweeping statements,like all or nothing type of
things, because that's usuallyfalse.
I think that, yeah, that's formost things.
I feel like, yeah, variability,person to person and, um, any
medical condition is not justblack or whiTeed type of
(12:49):
situation or the sweepingstatements like my program will
change your life and actually ohmy gosh I was just at the gym
this morning it was like lose 15pounds in 30 days and I was like
you guys it is 2025 like it is2025 like the world's on fire
and you're telling people tolose weight in 50 It's like, if
(13:10):
you're doing that, it's allwater, and it's just going to
come back.
Unfortunately.
Yeah.
If it sounds too good to betrue, it probably is.
It probably is.
And Hey, there are.
You know, I've seen a lot ofpeople make drastic progress in
my practice, and I'm sure you'veseen the same, but it took time
and it took effort and it tooklike a continuous, process of
(13:35):
doing that.
So any of the sweepingstatements, have you seen any,
like in particular, likespecific ones, like, Hey, your
spine will be straightened fivedays.
If you do the, it's like, Ohyeah.
And there's, there's a lot ofbraces out there that say that
it's going to straighten yourscoliosis.
(13:57):
And if anything, I mean, it'llweaken you because.
You're not using your muscularstrength to support yourself.
So you're relying upon thatexternal support.
And I think if anything, itworsens the situation if you're
wearing it all day, every day.
(14:17):
Um, but that, and yeah, thereare people out there.
Um, there's, I don't know howlegit this is, but there's like
some sort of machine thing thatpeople go and they use that.
There's this guy that used likea mathematical formula for their
school and I'm like, I don'tknow enough to say yes or no
(14:45):
about it, but.
To have results happen in, um,like a week or two is pretty
unbelievable.
And if you do get results, Idon't think that they're going
to stick.
Mm hmm.
You're getting them that fast.
You know, it's hard.
I, so many people ask me aboutdifferent things.
(15:07):
They'll be like, what do youthink about this gadget or that
gadget?
And I'm like, I, I literally, Ican't keep up.
Like, I can't.
And I am, if something works.
Like, let's see if it stands thetest of time.
Like I am all about it, butthere's so many.
gimmicky things that I've seenover the years, like even just
in pelvic floor physicaltherapy, it's like, Hey, you
(15:29):
know, I saw something posted theother day.
This person was like, thisprogram is better than in person
PT.
And I'm like, you just put downthe entire profession, be
careful, like, you know, and,and if somebody is putting down
an entire profession and I mean,Hey, there's good and bad PTs,
there's good and bad everyprofession.
(15:49):
And so, but to blanket, like putyour whole.
That's also something toconsider.
And so like this is thediscernment part of like
deciding like who do I want tolisten to?
Do you resonate with theirmarketing?
Are you, does it, is it veryfear based?
Is it, does it seem too good tobe true?
You know, I think those are,those are some big ways to kind
(16:11):
of.
Discern like, Hey, is thisperson right for me?
And is it not?
Because, you know, when you'rein pain, in pain and you're
scared, you're vulnerable.
And when you're vulnerable,that's when you're taking
advantage of.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The amount of things I've beenseeing about like, this will
(16:32):
help strengthen your pelvicfloor and do all these things.
I'm like, the issue is thatwe're so stressed that our asses
are tight.
Like it is just.
It's so true.
And that's the case withscoliosis too.
Yeah.
You're having so much tensionand stress in your life.
And in your body, it's going toperpetuate the things that are
(16:55):
already tight and wound up.
It's going to make them worse.
I never ceased to make you, uh,uh, yeah.
So with.
With that, I mean, you kind ofjumped into the braces and
stuff.
So when would somebody want touse a brace and following that?
(17:21):
When, when is it time toconsider surgery?
when should somebody consider abrace and or surgery?
In adolescence, it's a verycritical time to take action
with that.
Um, between the degrees of, Ithink they're, they're bracing a
lot earlier now than they usedto.
(17:43):
So, um, meaning, It's not quiteas severe of a degree.
So 25 now is about the degreethat they'll start bracing
adolescent, um, people.
And, um, there's all sorts ofdifferent braces out there.
Usually a firm brace is what'sgoing to be the most beneficial,
(18:06):
uh, firm brace.
That's three dimensional.
There are some braces that kindof turn you into a pancake and,
um, they just kind of flatteneverything out and they don't
allow for the D rotation tohappen, the opening to happen,
um, and the maintenance of the.
(18:28):
Kyphosis and lordosis of themiddle and lower back.
So just like the side curvature,you want to maintain that as
best as you can.
Um, because that will createother pain problems down the
line if you flatten out thoseareas.
So wait, so some of them areonly front and back, even though
(18:50):
the scoliosis is literally side,like side to side.
Oh, interesting.
This is, yeah, this is why it'simportant when these gadgets and
these things is to, to see,because I mean, how would that
straighten that would only helpsomebody's upright posture
wouldn't help the curvature,right?
Yeah, it makes sense.
And yeah, so that, um, that canbe problematic and even not
(19:13):
putting your brace on correctlycan be problematic too.
So like, if you don't have ittight enough, your curve is
going to try to escape whereverthose openings are.
And that's a good thing if theopenings are in the correct
positions, but if they're not inthe right spots, then it can
(19:33):
make things a little bit moretricky.
Um, and then for an adult who islooking for a brace or curious
if a brace will be helpful forthem, I generally recommend
those.
If You are a person who can'tstand for prolonged periods of
time, get your housework donewithout excruciating back pain.
(19:56):
And it's really limiting youthat way.
I would use that kind of as likea little supplement, extra
crutch where you put it on whenyou're doing stuff like that,
but wearing that all day, everyday that ends up again, kind of
taking the route of.
A little bit of a downwardeffect because it restricts your
(20:21):
rib mobility and your ability tobreathe and expand the ribcage.
And then that just increasesyour anxiety, um, and increases
your pain levels.
I mean, that makes sense.
There's, um, it's for pelvicfloor dysfunction.
If somebody has prolapse, Imean, it's to a lesser degree,
(20:42):
but of the spine, like a smallerversion of, of bracing, but
basically a pessary will go intothe vagina and hold the vaginal
wall up.
And it's the same thing.
It's like, well, It's not a,like people wear these all day,
every day.
So it's a bit different, butsometimes people just need to
put it in for a specificactivity.
And then like, so if they wantto weight train or something
(21:04):
like that, they can put it inand then take it out or whatever
the activity is.
So yeah, that makes, that makessense.
Where can they get a brace?
Like what, where, where do youfind them?
Adolescents, they need to go toan orthotist and have one
specially custom.
(21:25):
They do do that for adults now.
Um, Align is a good company tolook for if they have them in
your area.
They are throughout the country.
Um, and.
Yeah.
They do custom braces.
And then for adults, you couldjust, you know, go on Amazon and
(21:48):
get, you know, a supportivebrace that way.
And that would be sufficient forthat.
Like you could even just getlike a lumbar support type of
brace, um, for something likethat.
It doesn't have to be a specialcustom made one.
Oh, good to know.
When should someone considersurgery?
(22:10):
So, definitely a delicate topicfor people.
Um, like you mentioned with yourbrothers, if This is a person,
um, who's in adolescence andtheir curve is quickly
progressing.
That's a time that I would beconsidering surgery if, um, they
(22:34):
are 55 degrees and beyond.
That's usually the route inadolescence that, um, is
recommended to stabilize thecurve and make sure it doesn't
continue to progress.
That's because on average, ifyou aren't doing anything to
(22:56):
help your scoliosis, if you'rejust living your life and you're
a teen and your curve is at 55or more on average, that curve
is going to progress one degreeper year.
So it.
Ends up becoming a problem laterin life and then you might not
be a candidate for surgery bythe time, you know It's really
(23:19):
causing you a problem Yeah, Ithink and I don't know if people
are aware of like why likepeople need surgery, too It's
you know in in the case of mybrothers like it was their curve
was so bad And again, it was aprogressive disease But it's
like you can do all thisstrengthening and they don't
(23:40):
have the muscle capacity to doit.
So there's It was like a must,but the, like the compression of
like their internal organs andnot able to fully expand and
contract.
So like in a difficultybreathing and things like that
can make, make a difference.
So if somebody is, saysomebody's going through
(24:02):
perimenopause right now, right?
So say they're going through itand they hear this and or
pregnancy, we've also had thatepisode in the first season if
you guys, um, want to check thatout, but what.
What are some precautions orthings that they could work on
now?
So we talked about going tosomebody local.
(24:23):
You can kind of see, you know,not just like a generic PT
clinic or anywhere that sayslike somebody that specializes
in scoliosis.
Um, but what, what would thatlook like?
So say if somebody wanted tocome in and be preventative of
that, Could you give them anidea of what that might look
like?
Obviously, each practitionermight be a little bit different,
(24:45):
but I'm sure there's somecommon, common themes.
Um, so during that firstsession, no matter the reason
why you're there to address yourscoliosis, you kind of go
through a standard assessmentwith that person.
We take look, a look at thingslike your rib expansion, your
(25:08):
lung capacity.
Um, just getting some baselinemeasurements for that, uh, the
rotation that you have of thespine.
So that means when you bendforward and you reach for your
toes, that's the prominence thatyou see pushing out into the
skin.
So we assess that because thatcan actually improve, uh, with
(25:31):
exercise specialized for yourcurve.
And, um, we take strength andbalance measurements, baseline
photos.
And that one, you know, that canbe a challenge for people to see
their backs because who holds amirror or like takes photos of
(25:53):
their backs.
So a lot of people haven't seentheir own back and Maybe ever.
Um, so that can be kind of ahard thing to, to walk through
during that first visit, but itis important to have an
understanding of where you'restarting from and, um, having
(26:13):
that awareness so that you canbegin to make some changes.
Yeah, it's one of those things Ifeel like there's just like this
delicate balance probably of notscaring people But also like
they're neat just making themaware, but also empowered but
also not like hey, like this isfine You know, I feel like I
(26:34):
struggle with that sometimes inhealth care is like hey how much
to get people concerned But notso much that they're just
panicking and so I find thatthat that's a delicate balance
when it's something can besevere And I'm going to throw
this out there, that sometimesif you go to a scoliosis
(26:56):
specialist who doesn't havescoliosis, It can be hard, it,
um, it can feel, um, a littlebit like a personal attack at
times because that person has asymmetrical spine.
(27:18):
And then they're analyzing likeall of these things that you're
doing wrong, um, the way thatyou're holding yourself, you
know, it, it can be reallychallenging.
I actually just had, um, aclient of mine who's PT.
She has.
Severe scoliosis.
And she went to training had ahorrific experience where she
(27:43):
was the only person in the groupthat had scoliosis and she just
felt like nitpicked the entiretime.
And, you know, the instructorwas like looking at the way that
she was like picking up herbackpack or carrying her
backpack and like raised hereyebrows at her and she was
like.
That's awfully heavy, isn't it?
And she's like, this is mycourse material and my laptop.
(28:06):
I'm not like a fragile piece ofveal.
You know, I'm, I like tosnowboard.
She likes to snowboard.
She's Pilates instructor, youknow, she's very active person.
So she was like, I'm reallygrateful that I worked with you
before I went into thatexperience because You know, you
understand, and then you alsolike kind of prepared me for a
(28:30):
lot of what I went throughduring that time.
So, um, yeah, I don't know how,how to take that.
I think it's important to note,you know, I think.
Um, every condition can be alittle bit different.
I know that I've heard peoplesay with pelvic floor PT, like,
(28:52):
Hey, I don't want a PT thathasn't had a child.
And obviously it's different.
Right.
But like that kind of was adagger into my heart because I
struggled with infertility andI, after cancer, I'm just like,
I'm, I'm good.
I'm not having kids, but whenyou're actively in infertility
and you hear people say that,it's like, Oh, man, like that's,
(29:15):
that's a dagger, just cause Ididn't have a child.
Meanwhile, I do see though, howit's different with scoliosis,
because it's like, you know,scoliosis isn't necessarily like
some people accidentally getpregnant, but some people choose
to get pregnant too, right?
So there's in that, and it's,you know, a nine month period
(29:38):
versus like, Scoliosis is alifetime.
And so I could totally see howthat, I think it's just the lack
of being trauma informed, to behonest.
I think that.
We have an issue in healthcarewhere it's so easy to do that.
I mean, even in pelvic floortraining, right.
We'll do pelvic floorassessments and people start
(29:59):
talking about somebody's vaginaliterally in front of their face
and be like, well, this, this, Ifeel this and this, and then
you're like, is there somethingwrong with my vagina?
You know, Oh God, I can't even,my vagina is not even right.
You would have a vagina.
That's correct.
What's going on?
You know?
And I've heard the instructorsbe like, you guys have to be
(30:20):
careful.
These are people that we'reworking with here.
You know, even though I thinkfor some reason, when you take
these trainings, people justthink like, Oh, everybody's
fine.
Like we're all practitioners.
No, we're all human beings.
With heightened emotions rightnow, because there's a lot going
on in the world and a lot,everybody's processing a lot
right now.
And so add on any criticism andit's not, yeah, that's not,
(30:45):
that's not great.
No.
And I think it's exactly whatyou said in that non trauma
informed is super important.
And also there's nuance to whatyou learn in a continuing
education course.
You can't just.
Cookie, copy and paste with eachperson, the material that you
(31:06):
learned, you know, you have touse your critical thinking brain
and think, okay, neutral spineisn't.
Um, sustainable to maintain theentire course of the day, which
that's what you're taught.
And a lot of these scoliosisspecific courses is neutral
(31:29):
spine all the time.
So what happens when that personwants to go and play their sport
or go dance ballet, do somethingthey love?
Are you going to sit there andtell them that they can't do
that anymore?
Because that is a lie.
And, um, You know, that's goingto make things worse because the
(31:50):
more inactive you are, the morethat scoliosis is likely to
progress.
Yeah, it's a balance becauseit's like I do think sometimes
actually when I when I learneddry needling like 13 years ago
that the instructors were verylike a long time ago.
Yeah, I started needling likeright person.
(32:12):
I was like, I invented it.
I just took the needle and juststarted.
No, I, yeah, I was, I thinklike, cause I'd moved to Austin
2011 and took the training atthe end of 2012, beginning of
2013.
So I guess it was 12 years.
Maybe I lied.
So yeah, needling for 12 years.
But the first training I took,They were like, just stab the
(32:35):
muscle until it stopscontracting.
That's what they said.
Like, just put the needle in andkeep going until the, the
contraction stops.
And when I started doing that, Iwas like, everyone's flaring the
fuck up right now.
And they're blaming me.
And I'm not, you know, I'm a newgrad, right?
So I'm listening to what I'msupposed to be doing.
But then I go, no, no, no, no.
So I toned it back and was like,no, I'm going to go into the
(32:57):
muscle, get the twitch.
How do they feel?
Great.
Okay.
Next area.
I'm more gentle with it, but Ihad to kind of distill what I
had learned about how does thatactually translate into
practice?
Right?
You can needle somebody over andover, but that's just going to
cause the same issue.
You're just re tightening themuscle again versus sticking a
needle in it and allowing it tocontract and relax.
(33:19):
But.
Sometimes that's, yeah, it's,it's interesting when you go to
these, these trainings and stufftoo.
I went to a trauma training,trauma healing, um, training
about somatic healing, um, a fewmonths ago and it was not trauma
informed at all.
And I was like, this is crazy tome.
(33:40):
It's that's a big thing too, issometimes the trainings are not
trauma informed, which if peopleare getting into trauma to help
people with trauma, they'veprobably been traumatized
themselves in some capacity.
So then they're working throughtheir own stuff so they can hold
space for somebody else.
And so, yeah, that's, that'sinteresting.
I just went on a ramble.
No, it's okay.
(34:02):
It was all connected.
It is, it is because, well,it's, it's like.
It sounds like scoliosis, likeyou, it sounds a little bit more
like pelvic floor physicaltherapy too and it is very
intimate and it's very, youknow, feeling aligned with your
(34:23):
practitioner, feeling like youcan talk to them and you're not
being judged.
And if you feel like there'sthat, maybe some open
communication and seeing, butyou know, and seeing how they
react.
And that, that's the trickything because there aren't very
many specialists, so it's almostlike you get what you get when
(34:44):
you're trying to find somebodyin person, unless you're in a
big city, you don't really havethat many choices.
But there's not many in Austineither.
I'm thinking like the next PT,so I'm hiring somebody in the
next few months.
And the next person, I thinkafter that, I'm going to see if
we can get somebody that doesscoliosis, because I think
there's only like one or twopeople in Austin.
(35:06):
That's crazy.
I mean, I don't know.
I haven't necessarily lookedrecently, but last time I looked
it was, it wasn't, it wasn'tthat much.
But I do think that there is alot of the public might feel
like it's too good to be true.
Right.
Do you find that too?
Um, I kind of, it's definitelymore of the older generation
(35:28):
that is that way, where Causethey were told that?
They were told that and they'reNot as, um, I don't think they
do, I don't want to make asweeping statement about that
because I have plenty of peoplewho are in an older generation
who do their research, but Ijust feel like they are more
(35:50):
likely to take what their doctorsays at face value and not
question it.
Whereas our generation, we'relike, yeah, no, you know, I'm
going to.
And if I don't like what I hearfrom my doctor, I'm going to
continue to search for an answerthat suits my life and suits my
(36:13):
goals a little bit better.
Yeah, it was a different time.
My parents are like that.
It's like, like you have to,that's the discernment too.
It's like, okay, that's oneperson's opinion and now who
else can you go to?
And so it's, uh, yeah, it'sdefinitely interesting how each
generation has.
(36:34):
You know, handles their healthin different ways because
something it wasn't acceptableeven back then to challenge your
doctor It's not like you need tochallenge them and be an asshole
about it.
It's just like hey, what are theother options, you know?
So one of the other things thatI've I've found and, and want to
(36:55):
know your opinion of this isI've seen some emerging evidence
on how potentially lowprogesterone can cause
scoliosis.
What are your thoughts on thatand like, what are you, you
know, just tell me what youthink about all that.
Yeah.
Um.
Thank you.
So I just actually did aninterview with someone.
(37:18):
Um, his name is Dr.
Mark Morningstar, and he's doinga lot of research on genetic
components and factors thatinfluence the development of
scoliosis.
And there's two genes that cameup over and over again for being
higher, higher likelihood ofdeveloping scoliosis.
(37:41):
And that's I'm waiting to messit.
M.
T.
M.
T.
H.
It's M.
T.
H.
F.
R.
or something.
F.
R.
Yep.
M.
T.
H.
F.
R.
and C.
O.
M.
T.
Um, and both of those influence,like if you have those genes
(38:01):
expressing themselves.
On that person, then there havea higher likelihood of
developing scoliosis and thatscoliosis progressing.
So what he was talking about,and I'm like really terrible
with a lot of this stuff, likeremembering like the different,
um, genetic and yeah, it's awhole, I had to bring somebody
(38:25):
on.
Yeah.
To explain like estrogendominance, cause I was like, I
need you to break this down.
So then, and then tell, youknow, people, because this
isn't, I can help people withthe symptoms, but this is a
whole nother realm.
Right.
Yeah.
And it had more to do withmelatonin and with estrogen
(38:50):
being lower in those two things.
Lower in melatonin and actually,I think higher in estrogen.
So I don't know if that worksinversely with, Oh, okay.
Wait.
So they have high estrogen andlow melatonin.
Definitely low melatonin.
And I can't remember what it wasfor estrogen.
(39:12):
I can't remember if it was highor low for that.
Okay.
Yeah.
Well, have you seen anything onprogesterone?
I've, I've not.
Okay.
Um.
That doesn't mean it isn't athing.
No, I was just wondering becauseyou and I have talked previously
about this and how like there'sa there hasn't been anything
(39:36):
necessarily linking the two butchildhood trauma repeated trauma
while we're developing and alink between scoliosis and I
just wondered Have you seenthat?
You've seen that prettyconsistently?
I've seen consistently that andor, um, having a very dominant,
(39:58):
um, parental figure.
Usually it's a mother.
Really?
Oh, interesting.
Well, just on the reason Ibrought up progesterone too, is
because when in our estrogendominance episode that, um, we
talked about how, when underchronic stress, the body
(40:22):
prioritizes, so it goes down thesimilar pathway, the body
prioritizes making cortisol.
So the stress hormone overprogesterone.
And so I was just wonderinglike, as.
In childhood, so say that likethe repeated exposure to chronic
stress, maybe we thought it wasnormal at the time, right?
I was just thinking like, Iwonder if there's a correlation
between the two.
(40:43):
And I did do a little researchand I saw some, some stuff
popping up, but there wasn'tanything linking the two.
And I think because we justdon't know as much about
hormones as we, we thought.
And, and I think that there'sjust, A massive amount of
research that still needs to bedone and understanding of
hormones affect, um, thesesymptoms, but it's just, what
(41:07):
are some other correlations thatyou've seen?
A higher incidence of peopledeveloping scoliosis with
certain sports, like gymnasticsand ballet or dance, That's
usually, I think it's more of acausation type of thing than it,
not causation, um, correlation.
So people who are naturallybendy.
(41:29):
Uh, probably have connectivetissue stuff going on there,
more likely to go into thosethings to begin with.
So if you have that, and thenyou have also the predisposition
to developing scoliosis, I thinkit's just the combination of all
of that together.
(41:49):
Um, but there's no proven thingthat says that dancer gymnastics
causes scoliosis.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like I said, I didn't,there's nothing correlating
necessarily the progesterone.
Um, I, I saw preliminarystudies, but I just thought that
was interesting because then Iadded on the link of, okay, how
(42:12):
much of this?
Cause I just see, I'm just downthis whole path of like
understanding how.
So, you know, genetics can beexpressed, right?
There's one piece, but somepeople can still have the
genetic factors, but not expressthings.
Right.
And in the study that I've been,in the research I've been doing
with trauma and like needinghelp processing it and getting
(42:34):
out of the constant fight orflight, I've seen that those
are, you know, Like say we havetwo people with the genetic
factors, right?
So, I've heard them use theexample of smoking, right?
Not everybody that smokescigarettes gets lung cancer.
And there's, there's a highcorrelation, but if one person
has smoked cigarettes and theyhave like a supportive partner
(42:55):
and, um, their family and theyhave great communication and
support system, and then youhave somebody else over here
that.
smokes and is isolated or maybehas dealt with significant
trauma that they need helpprocessing and understanding how
to move through it.
This person's more likely toexpress it.
And so there's, there's juststuff coming out about, okay,
(43:17):
well, why in genetics, somepeople have stuff and others
don't, right?
Cause there's, there's multiplefactors.
And so I just think it'sinteresting to kind of start
looking into all of that andthat's not to like say, Oh, your
childhood trauma, like causescoliosis.
It's just more of.
Understanding, like, hey, howmuch the body processes trauma
(43:38):
and, like, what can we do tokind of help with that too.
And so learning about thenervous system and, and things
like that.
Like you said, if you'rechronically in fight or flight
too, you're going to be kind oflike tight and hunched over and
so how much of it is more that.
Right.
Right.
And you're internally windingyourself up, uh, you're trying
(44:00):
to protect yourself and guardingfrom whatever that trauma is.
There's a commonality here andmaybe there's not research on it
yet, but it is interesting tostart observing those things.
Um, so what.
What are your thoughts on, okay,so if somebody is listening to
(44:22):
this and they're like, hey, Ihave scoliosis and it's not that
bad, but how is, how areexercises for scoliosis
different than kind of likegeneric PT?
Exercises, scoliosis exerciseswill take into consideration
(44:43):
what your curve is doing.
So when you're going for genericPT, if you go in, usually you
have to have some sort ofsymptom or pain in order to get
there.
So they'll give you generic lowback pain exercises or shoulder
or neck, like wherever you'rehaving that pain point.
(45:07):
And that PT won't do anassessment of your curve first.
Um, that's what generic PT witha school as a specialist,
they're going to educate youabout your curve, what your
tendencies are and standing andsitting, um, that are
(45:28):
potentially feeding thoseasymmetries that you have
baseline.
And then they'll teach youstrategies for countering those
asymmetries.
Um, what I've found to be superimportant that I've made a tweak
and adjustment on, and throughthe training that, um, I've done
(45:50):
with scoliosis is instead ofright away trying to force that
person into a different shape,um, than they currently are in,
We need that permission from thenervous system first to actually
make those changes andadjustments, because if you go
(46:11):
in and you start forcing thingsand you don't have that
permission, then that's when itcan create even more pain if you
have it.
Baseline.
Um, and it can create pain ifyou don't have it baseline.
Um, I had somebody who went andshe's an adult and she wanted to
(46:34):
go to the specialist and do anintensive.
They do the adult bracing and itwas.
Just like very forcefulexercises.
The brace was like reallyshoving her into corrected
alignment.
And she came out of away fromthat and excruciating pain.
(46:56):
And she didn't have pain tobegin with.
Oh, um, we have to be smartabout how we're implementing
these things and understand thatthe person has been in this
shape for however long it's.
It needs to be more of a slowand steady process first, um,
(47:20):
take a look at areas ofrestriction all throughout the
body and see how you can teachthat person to release those
areas independently without yourhands on them.
Um, give them those tools toheal themselves and, um, then
begin working on slowly butsurely implementing the
(47:42):
corrective stuff later.
I like how you brought that thenervous system up with that too,
because it's like kind of whatyou were saying.
If, if you have a practitionerthat you feel like there's just,
it doesn't feel right.
Maybe it just, maybe they're notunderstanding or you just feel
something's off, right?
Your muscles are going to betight as well.
(48:03):
And then forcing somebody intosomething.
I mean, I've even seen it justfrom like a lighter degree of
like, even when you put like aheel lift in, yeah.
somebody, um, they'll put inlike a heel lift, right away.
like something drastic.
And I'm like, you cannot, you'vehad that.
This is why I have an issuesometimes with, and I have a
question with leg length foryou.
(48:24):
But say somebody doesn't havescoliosis and they're
immediately put in a heel lift.
I'm like, well, if you haven't.
Had pain for 40 years.
And then all of a sudden youhave back pain.
Now I'm not going to put a heellift in you.
If you've had pain your entirelife, and this is just ongoing.
I'm like, let's, let's considerour list.
Let's try it.
(48:45):
Right.
Cause sometimes it also can bemuscular tightness as well, but.
Even so, even if it's just alittle bit and then they go and
wear it all day, they flare up.
So it's like a little bit kindof at a time.
It's like new shoes, right?
So what, what are your thoughtson, uh, why can't I get my words
(49:06):
out?
Um, heel lifts.
Yeah, they are definitely overprescribed with scoliosis.
And you want to make sure thatthat person actually has a true
leg length.
Discrepancy and difference.
Most people with scoliosis, itappears like we have two
(49:29):
different lengths of legs, butin reality, that's not the case.
It's the rotation of the pelvis,it's tightness in the tissues
that are kind of pulling theinnominate up into the torso and
causing that to appear likethere is a difference.
So, actually taking a truemeasurement and seeing, hey,
(49:51):
does this person have a leglength difference or not.
But then if they do actuallyhave a difference, starting with
as small of a heel lift aspossible, like you said, um,
little insert, like just ageneric Dr.
Scholl's thing that you slip inand, and see how they, um,
(50:14):
respond to that and see if thatactually helps to balance things
out.
But usually it's not a truelike, like discrepancy.
For those people that don't knowgold standard of a length like
there's gonna be a standing xray But nobody really does that
so you can you measure well thePT or healthcare Practitioner or
(50:35):
chiropractor or whoever you'reworking with, it's the part that
you can feel on the sides ofyour hips, like right in the
front, and then you measure itall the way down to the top of
your inner ankle, that littlebone right there.
And you can at least get an ideaof that, even if it's just a
little bit, but.
It will look like you have alaying leg, but it's actually
the curvature of your spine.
(50:55):
So in, in, in essence, if youdid put a heel lift in there,
wouldn't it just reinforce thecurve more?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you, you want to be carefulwith, with those as well.
So, um, yeah, well if you wantto, well, I'll just kind of
summarize a little bit of whatwe, we said today and then I'd
love to, you know, have peopleknow your services.
(51:17):
So what we really went overtoday is, you know, the common
myths about scoliosis, whensomeone should consider surgery.
Um, I think it's reallyimportant to be understanding
when to use a brace in childhoodor in adolescence versus
adulthood, how finding the rightpractitioner is important, not,
you know, finding somebody thatscoliosis specific and how
(51:39):
sometimes it can be that, beingcareful with a certain
practitioner because it can feellike there's, there's,
Potentially judgment or forcingthings faster than they need to
be.
But that can be hard because notevery, there's not a ton of
scoliosis specialist.
And so in that just learningmore about your curve So that
(52:01):
way you can understand and helpprevent progression.
And then.
We talked about some potentialassociations, things that we've
noticed, that's not necessarilyconfirmed in the research, but
just something to be aware ofwith hormones and how that can
affect it.
And leg length discrepancy and,how not just everybody getting a
(52:22):
heel lift for that and theneasing into the exercise.
Cause this is going to taketime.
Actually, before I jump intothat, you did say that.
Before you jump into your, your,your contact info, you did say
that.
Every year it progresses like1%.
And so do you, have you seenthat it kind of halts and stays
(52:44):
where the curve was when, ifthey continue with more
scoliosis specific stuff or, andhave you seen that reverse at
all?
Yeah.
So, definitely a higher lightlikelihood of that halting, uh,
the uneven loading of the spine.
Um, and.
There is a chance that it canreverse.
(53:05):
I've seen it reverse like five,about five degrees for adults on
average.
Um, as long as that persondoesn't have osteoporosis, um,
you know, usually that's anotherindication that things are going
to continue to progress ifyou're not addressing that as
well.
(53:25):
Gotcha.
Yeah.
And there's a lot of stuff youcan do for osteoporosis too now.
And understanding even justbeyond medications, just.
Understanding how to, toweightlift, diet, a variety of
different things.
I'll have to have one of the PTsthat specialize in osteoporosis.
But we, with a lot of theresearch too is around like
(53:48):
loading.
Yeah.
Loading joints and getting usstronger.
So that way the bones get thatinput of, Hey, we need to build
more bone.
So if you want to tell everybodywhere they can find you about
your podcast and then yourupcoming programs.
Sure.
Yeah.
Um, you can find me, I have apodcast called ahead of the
(54:08):
curve that's on Apple, all thedifferent podcaster apps, and I
have a YouTube channel that isalso called, uh, no, it's called
the scolio therapist, but I havemy podcast on there as well
called the head ahead of thecurve.
And, um, you can find me onInstagram.
I'm the scolio therapist there.
(54:30):
Um, I am currently closed for myprogram for the Scoliosis
Strength Collective, um, but thedoors are opening fairly soon
for that.
And I have a free trainingcoming up.
I don't know if this will bereleased before or after that,
(54:50):
but it is March 9th and March13th.
It's called the CurveLengthening Lab, where I teach
you how to safely lengthen yourscoliosis and your curves
without increasing your pain.
I love that.
This won't be out by then, butwill they be able to access
that?
Like, will you have it?
(55:11):
It'll, it'll happen again in thefall.
Okay.
So getting, basically getting onyour email list to kind of learn
of.
of all the upcoming things.
Yeah.
So yeah, you have a wealth ofknowledge on your podcast.
So highly recommend if you guyswant to, if you all want to find
out more, um, about scoliosis indepth and in ways to help.
So thank you so much, Meg.
(55:33):
Thanks for having me, Mary.
Good to be back.
You've been listening to TMITalk with your host, Dr.
Mary Grinberg.
Make sure to subscribe whereveryou get your podcasts.
To learn more about Dr.
Mary, head on over todrmarygrinberg.
com.
And make sure to follow Dr.
Mary at DrMaryPT on all socialchannels.
To learn more about Dr.
Mary's integrative practice forpain relief in Austin, Texas,
(55:54):
head on over to resilient rx.
com.
Thanks for listening!
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