Episode 56: When Beauty Hurts: Hidden Cost of Conventional Beauty with Gabrielle Mullinix

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
hello everyone.
Welcome back to TMI talk withDr.
Mary.
I'm your host, Dr.
Mary.
In this episode I brought inGabrielle Linux and she is a
trailblazing scalp therapist,holistic head spat educator and
founder of Gen Empire Head Spain Austin, Texas.
We'll dive a little bit moreinto her in just a minute, but I

(00:21):
wanted to back up and explain alittle bit about.
Gabrielle and i's history.
She had been my hairdresser forseveral years and I had found
out that I was diagnosed withcancer and she helped me
navigate losing my hair, gettinga wig, going through my first
haircuts and understanding mynew hair again, and it was such

(00:42):
a pivotal part of both of ourcareers because I woke up to
wanting to be more holistic inmy path and my journey of
health.
And it was an eyeopeningexperience for her as well, and
she was already on this path ofholistic hair care, but it
really drived that direction forher, and she's very special and

(01:03):
near and dear to my heartbecause losing your hair during
cancer treatment is one of themost uncomfortable things that a
lot of people don't really talkabout that process.
So much of the focus is on.
It's on keeping somebody alive,which is, yes, that's important,
but there's also that piece.
And so diving in more to aboutGabrielle.

(01:24):
So she owns Jump Empire Head Spaas soulful brand, dismantling
the toxic norms of the beautyindustry from the inside out.
With over 15 years of experiencebehind the chair, Gabrielle
transformed her own healthcollapse in a mission.
Driven movement guiding bothclients and professionals
towards a sustainable, spiritualand science-backed approach to

(01:46):
scalp and nervous system care.
Based in Austin, Texas,Gabrielle blends ancient wisdom,
nervous system regulation, andnon-toxic tools to create a
deep, nourishing head spaexperience.
Her online education platformempowers sensitive stylists,
estheticians, and wellnesspractitioners with the
techniques and rituals andmarketing tools to build

(02:09):
peaceful, profitable careersthat don't compromise their
health.
And so in this episode, whatyou'll learn are the overall
arching theme is the hidden costof conventional beauty and
everything that we do to get tothat and how it affects our
bodies.
So what we'll dive into is howchronic exposure to chemicals

(02:31):
and beauty and healthcaresettings can actually contribute
to illness.
The real story behind cancerhair loss and how the overpriced
wig industry doesn't actuallymean quality, and how many
people that are going throughcancer treatment are actually
being scammed by this and payingthousands of dollars.
How greenwashing is evident inour hair products and in the

(02:55):
beauty industry, calling itvegan or clean, when it doesn't
always mean that it's safe.
Why ner the nervous system needstime to reset after leaving
toxic environments?
This can include chemicals oreven just a toxic work
environment in general.
How scalp health connects tofascia, blood flow, and even

(03:15):
your nervous system Daily thingsthat you can do to support
healthy hair growth by focusingon your scalp and why slowing
down and reconnecting with yourbody is a non-negotiable if you
wanna heal.
So without further ado, we willjump into the episode and I hope
you enjoy it.
Welcome back to TMI talk withDr.
Mary where we dive intonon-traditional forms of health

(03:37):
that were once labeled as tabooor dismissed as Woo.
I'm your host, Dr.
Mary.
I'm an orthopedic and pelvicfloor physical therapist who
helps health.
Movement and rehab professionalsintegrate whole body healing by
blending the nervous system intotraditional biomechanics to
maximize patient outcomes.
I use a non-traditional approachthat has helped thousands of

(03:59):
people address the deeper rootsof health that often get
overlooked in conventionalwestern training.
And now we are gonna be startingour next episode.
welcome to the podcast,Gabrielle.
Thank you.
So excited you're here.
Yes, me too.
It's a long time coming.
Yes.
I am excited to dive into all ofthe things today that you and I

(04:20):
have been on this mutual journeyof mm-hmm.
Branching out on our own andleaving kind of toxic work
environments and then going morethis holistic approach all while
being on our own spiritualjourneys.
Yes.
And seeing what aligns with bothof us.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I'd love to dive intoall that with you.

(04:41):
I'm into it.
Yeah.
I know.
I'm very excited to be here.
And I just think the, uh, thealignment of our paths in
general, as they've gone likethis, a lot of the times we've
been able to just like, kind ofcome back together and realize
that we are really like this.
You know what I mean?
In a lot of ways.
So, yeah.
Totally.
Well, you wanna explain toeverybody how we know each
other?
Yeah.

(05:02):
So you were a beautiful clientof mine.
Um, when I was in a hair salon.
Um, I believe you came in on aGroupon.
It was like a Groupon, I thinkit was like a Yelp special
actually.
So we started our journey there.
Um, I have been now ahairstylist of 15 years, but

(05:23):
when we met probably 10 year,uh, I don't know, it's been
about 10 years that we've knowneach other about in 2015.
About.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, you know, I just movedto Austin and, you know, was
building up my clientele again.
And I really feel like a lot ofthose of you that have been with
me since the beginning has beenlike, again, very much so

(05:44):
synchronistic and in alignmentfor just the paths that we've
walked in our own, just likehealing journeys.
Um, but yeah, I got to serviceyour beautiful hair, uh, do all
kinds of color experiences and,um.
You know, I think that wasprobably five years in that
salon environment and thenultimately transitioned into my

(06:06):
own solo space because of theindustry starting to kind of
take me out as far as, um, myhealth goes.
So I started seeing thingshappen in the industry that
we're sort of, um.
Not resonating with my body, youknow?
And, um, I think that's where,you know, you walked your path

(06:28):
as well.
And it was very similar to thetimeline that I was walking my
path, but silently, uh, becauseI couldn't necessarily speak to
toxins in the hair environment.
There was not a lot of peopletalking about these things at
the time.
Um, it was really scary to saythese things that, you know, my
health could be reflective ofwhat I'm using and what I'm

(06:48):
using on people and how I'maffecting people or how I'm
affecting myself on a dailybasis.
So I remember there was just areally big shift in, you know,
having chronic migraines and notbeing able to breathe in that
space and all of those thingsthat just started coming to a
head that I was like, I reallyneed to explore something else
and I need to be able to, um.

(07:10):
One, a space that feels morehealing.
And, um, nobody was reallytalking about the holistic side
of the hair industry.
No.
Yet, no.
Um, nobody would've ever heardof that.
I really had to dig for thesethings myself.
Um, and that was in 2019.
So it was really me juststarting to like, explore

(07:30):
options.
Um, because it became reallyscary for me that, you know,
with my past history of being,you know, my, like dad's side of
things, my mom's side of things,there's a lot of cancer that is
underlying on both sides.
And for me to start exploringall of the ingredients in the
things that I was using and, um,being in an environment that

(07:53):
housed multiple keratins a day,which I found out to be, uh, a
huge carcinogen because theyhave formaldehyde.
Um, and connecting some of myhealth path to that,
specifically that particularservice, I was like.
Oh my God.
And it became really, reallyilluminating.
But also I was kind of silentlysuffering at the time.

(08:15):
Well, I think it's hard whenyou're coming out in an industry
that nobody's talking aboutthis.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, it was 2019.
Now you're seeing more stuffrise up, especially post COVID o
and all the things and peoplelike yourself starting to get
the courage to speak out.
'cause it can be scary.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, me talking aboutspirituality as a physical
therapist is mainly Westerntrained.
Mm-hmm.

(08:35):
It has taken a lot of nervoussystem work for me to be able to
handle criticism, but I amwilling to take it.
Mm-hmm.
Because I, I feel sopassionately about when, when
our souls are off path, a lot ofhealth issues can happen and
not.
Blaming the health issues on theperson, but how can we look at
these chronic health issues asmessages?

(08:57):
Yeah.
Messages.
Like, Hey, am I in the wrongenvironment?
Totally.
What in my immediateenvironment, in my current
ecosystem is causing thissickness?
Is it environment?
Is it, is it diet?
I mean, most of the time I feellike we, we put a lot on diet
and I still think there's a lotin diet too.
Um, of a lot.
But if we're not addressing theconstant exposure that we have,

(09:21):
like the chemicals, I thinkabout this with nail salons too.
Mm-hmm.
I, I know, I see people wearingmasks now.
Yes.
To help with that.
I'm excited that they're doingthat.
But you're getting a lot ofpeople like yourself, the
trailblazers in these different,um.
In these different professionsthat have just kind of left
things silent and just pretendlike nothing's happening.

(09:44):
Mm-hmm.
But the reality is, is there's alot of chemicals in these
products.
And I remember even just back in2018 talking about how, yeah, I
don't put certain sunscreen onmy body.
Mm-hmm.
Because I don't trust thesebigger companies.
Mm-hmm.
Because they're giving Europedifferent products and they're
giving us Yes.

(10:04):
Because it's cheaper.
And it's like you're poisoningthe US people, the people in the
United States, and.
I remember like getting shit forthat.
Yeah.
And now it's like, okay, wellnow it's more accepted.
Mm-hmm.
But it was like, oh, okay.
You're exaggerating.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm like, am I, because I'mdealing with chronic fatigue for
20 years.
Mm-hmm.
Little did I know it wasmultiple things that were going

(10:26):
on, but.
A heightened nervous system mywhole life.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, I can eat healthy alldamn day.
Mm-hmm.
But it's like when I wasdiagnosed with cancer, I was
eating gluten-free.
Yeah.
I was having turmeric smoothies,I was exercising, but I was in a
relationship that was not good.
I was, I.
And it wasn't a good fit.
And then like, I was having alot of issues with my family at

(10:47):
the time and processing a lot ofCatholic guilt Yes.
And internalizing a lot ofstuff, not knowing how to, how
my energy is being affected too.
Mm-hmm.
Like I was over giving my energyand I didn't realize that that's
just sacred power.
That is totally, um, justabsorbing everybody else's
energy and going outta my way tohelp people that I barely even
knew.
Which is not a bad thing to do,but it's like, I was always

(11:09):
doing that.
Oh yeah.
And I remember when I wasmarried at the time, like my
partner was like, why do yougive your energy to everybody
else and not, you know, to, tome or like, and it just made me
think like, oh, okay.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and then, you know, Ireflect now and there's just so
many different aspects about itthat Yeah.
It was overgiving and not givingto the people that were closest

(11:31):
to me.
Oh, totally.
Um, yeah.
I think even in the industry,like you speaking to that bridge
of 2020 and the illuminationsthat were coming out of that,
there was a lot of scary stuffhappening.
But at the same time too, I justremember being in that space.
I just transitioned into my newstudio and the conversation of,
if you're gonna go back to work,this is how it has to look.

(11:53):
And you know, we have basicallya full hazmat suit on.
Right?
And then when I thought aboutit, I was like, isn't this how
we should be dressed anyways?
If we're dealing with thechemicals we are?
Oh, like I just got chills.
Ultimately, yeah, ultimately weare really the only service
providers that aren't protectedin that way with the level of
exposure that we have toammonia, to benzene, to all

(12:16):
these carcinogens that are justfloating around as vapors in the
air.
Just uh, our aerosols, all ofthat.
So I just remember likethinking, okay, we need to go
back housed in this hazmat suit.
Why have I not been doing thatthe entire time then, you know,
'cause it wasn't normalized.
Right.
Right.
And I can give you a specificexample of that too.

(12:38):
There was a time when I wasdoing, um, one of my coworkers
was doing a keratin.
This was after I'd already kindof found out like, is keratin
the straightening stuff?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So ultimately it helps smooththe hair, all those things.
When you hit any sort of heat tothat particular product, the
vapors become formaldehyde.
So it's gas in the air and youhave to have a very particular

(12:59):
system in order to suck thatstuff out.
Right.
We had a small salon, but I donot believe that we had that
system.
If I was being affected the waythat I was anyways, I had worked
it out with the, um, owners ofthe salon that I was not on.
I was not gonna be doing thoseparticular processes anymore.
However, I was still gonna be inthe environment and so I asked,

(13:20):
you know, would it be okay whilesomebody else is literally in a
gas mask giving theseexperiences?
Can I.
Wear a mask myself, because Ialready know how I feel.
Right?
Like, I already know that mythroat starts closing up.
I start getting this liketingling down the back of my
throat, my, um, neck whereeverything just starts getting
like really almost like I can'thear.

(13:41):
And then it would become justimmediately a migraine, like all
of a sudden, right?
And as I asked for thatpermission, they were like, no,
because we don't want anybody tothink anything's wrong.
I'm like, somebody's alreadywearing a gas mask.
Is the, is the client wearing amask?
Mask?
The, the client receiving theexperience is, is wearing a
mask, the service provider is ina gas mask and anybody else, why

(14:07):
are we doing this?
I know.
And then by the time thoseservices were done, we were in a
literal cloud.
Like, it's like we had to openthe doors, all of these things.
And I just was like, this is soterrible.
But like, again, I'm, I'm, it'sso normalized.
Yeah.
That like you just, when you're,you know.
There's like little things toothat I would even think about
when I was at corporate.
Mm-hmm.
As I was like, we were touchingcide mm-hmm.

(14:30):
With without gloves.
Mm-hmm.
And cide into your bloodstream.
Yeah.
I'd get made fun of'cause I'dwear like gloves or I was like,
no, like, let's get morenatural, like EPA approved.
Mm-hmm.
Products, we don't need to beexposing ourselves to this.
And it was, oh, you're justexaggerating.
I'm like, no, we're literallyspraying like cide, inhaling it.

(14:51):
Every 30 minutes as we'recleaning off the table.
It's not just this one timeexposure.
Right.
It's like the microdosingrepeated exposure.
And I just, I was like, no, I'mnot spraying that anymore.
I'm not inhaling that.
Mm-hmm.
And it's not necessary, likethat's necessary.
If blood is on a surface, weweren't totally, nobody's having
blood on the surface.

(15:11):
Mm-hmm.
Like we use those wipes.
I don't use the spray.
We use the wipes after somebodyhas a pelvic floor assessment.
Totally.
Because sometimes yeah, thevagina juices get on the table.
Yeah.
It's real.
Or like pee or something likethat.
They'll get on the pad, but youstill wanna walk.
Walk, you know.
Or lube or something like that.
Yeah.
You wanna make sure that it'scleaned up, but we need to be

(15:32):
discerning about the things thatwe expose ourselves to, even
like the lotions that we use.
Yep.
As physical therapists, like,you know, we use just like some
cocoa butter.
Mm-hmm.
But some of these other ones,it's the repeated exposure from
a clinician or practitioner, um,totally standpoint.
Yeah.
I literally say it feels likewe're always microdosing.

(15:52):
Yeah.
And at that point I felt like Iwas macro dosing chemicals.
Totally.
Because of the way that it waslike I couldn't, I physically
couldn't go in there and not beaffected in some way, whether it
was like, you know, just thehair color that was going on.
Again, there's ammonia in thoseproducts, and yes, there's other
products that have an ammoniaderivative or whatever the case
may be, but those are not,they're not tested as in long

(16:14):
term yet.
We're in the midst of using themright now, so I'm like
interested to see.
In the future?
Was that the same?
Was our ammonia exposure andthis more holistic color, did
they end up kind of balancingthe scales and ended up being
the same'cause it was justanother chemical or another
thing, right.
Or compound that we ended upusing.

(16:34):
But again, I, I speak to justlike our skin is our biggest
organ, we have to be so carefulabout what it is.
If you are not touching it, itis still in your environment
that it can literally absorbinto your skin.
Which is why I talk so heavy onvapors because as soon as you're
blow drying, guess what?
You've got products that you'veput in the hair.
You've got chemicals that arestill sitting on the hair.

(16:55):
If they received any sort ofchemical service, we are now
releasing those into the air asvapors and inhaling them because
what is a hairstylist doing mostof the time talking over the
blow dryer.
So they are eating all of that,you know what I mean?
Yeah.
And it's just one of thosethings where I was like, yeah,
no wonder my throat felt the waythat it did.
Of course.
Well, it makes me think too,it's like in western medicine

(17:17):
when people are coming in andchronically sick, it's like
we're not talking, like ifyou're bleaching your hair
regularly mm-hmm.
Like, how are you feeling afteryou're bleaching?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You know?
And, and that's something Inever put, I was dyeing my hair
and then you question yourself,you're like, why am I dyeing my
hair?
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
And like I was dyeing my hairever since I was 15.
And then subconsciously I waslike, why am I dyeing it?

(17:39):
Mm-hmm.
What about it?
And it was, it was so silly, butit was.
I was trying to look like, andit never worked.
'cause I never fit into the, theconventional beauty category.
Right.
Which was like the hot blonde,big boob, super skinny waist
parents.
But you know, like this, thisimper, like this impossible

(18:00):
body.
Mm-hmm.
That, you know, we were allcomparing ourselves to like the
Victoria's Secret models, whichwe now all of that's been
exposed.
Yeah.
Right.
And you know, they weren'tfeeling well during those
experiences and their bodieslike weren't optimal.
And you know, you hear all thislike corruption and it's like
you really sit back and thinkabout it and it's people prying
on our insecurities.

(18:21):
Mm-hmm.
The beauty industry just doesthat.
Mm-hmm.
And I see.
Der uh, dermatology practiceshere mm-hmm.
In Austin that have billboardsmm-hmm.
With the conventional beauty.
Mm-hmm.
Bullshit.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm like, why are we, it's2025 still.
Still.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we're still posting thatstuff.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Wow.
That mm-hmm.
That's interesting.
Mm-hmm.

(18:41):
And so it's funny'cause when youreally pull it back, it's like,
well, that's the best way tokeep women small.
Yeah.
Get them so obsessed with theway that they look mm-hmm.
That they don't questionanything because they're too
busy wrapped up in lookingskinny, you know, looking a
certain way mm-hmm.
Dyeing their hair, like allthese things and hey, if people

(19:02):
wanna dye their hair Yeah.
And they've weighed all theirpros and cons.
Yeah.
And it's something they enjoy.
Awesome.
Yeah.
Right.
But it's making this, it's likethis discernment of, and
discernment is just such a keyin this world today.
Mm-hmm.
Is sitting with this and beinglike, is this something that.
I'm doing for myself.
Mm-hmm.
Do I really like this?
Or is there a deeper rootedthing?
Mm-hmm.

(19:22):
You know,'cause I always, Istill find it crazy that we, we
try to hire our grays too.
Mm-hmm.
And who knows, I might do thatas mine gets more gray.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but I'm like, I fully wannaembrace it with platinum, but I
might change my mind.
I might still wanna dye my hair,but it's just sad to me because
as women we're just constantlylike being told subconsciously

(19:44):
that we're not enough, we're notdoing enough.
And, you know, all of the adsfor Botox and plastic surgery
mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
It's all to women.
I mean, if we're from a binarysense, it's really all to women.
Mm-hmm.
And it's like, I feel like onceyou see it, you can't unsee it
anymore.
Totally.
Um, and I just look back to somuch of my childhood and just

(20:08):
feeling like it was enough.
'cause I didn't have big enoughboobs.
I didn't look a certain way.
Mm-hmm.
It was just like all this.
Mm-hmm.
Stuff.
And then we just stay small andthen we expose ourselves to
chemicals and, oh, yeah.
I mean,'cause the same thingtoo.
I mean, that even triggerssomething, uh, as one of my
clients who is a, I would say apretty big deal, you know what I
mean?
Like she's, she runs multiple,we'll say like waxing studios.

(20:32):
Um, and I don't necessarilywanna put a name to that, but I
remember coming in after I wasgoing through my skin journey
because again, like through myskin, I have struggled.
For years because I wasconstantly fighting acne.
Mm-hmm.
Scarring, all of this stuff, andinflammation just in general.
I felt it in my body, but mostlythrough my face.

(20:53):
Right.
And a lot of times it was like,okay, well what am I eating?
What is this?
What is that?
Well, I remember going throughthis process, I had just started
going to an aesthetician for thevery first time.
She was explaining that certainthings that I might be eating,
like dairy could be veryinflammatory and all of that.
And so I was like, okay, I'llcut that back.
That immediately made a hugechange for me, which was
wonderful.

(21:14):
But I went through the path ofgetting chemical peels done
because I wanted to minimize myscarring.
I wanted to be able to, youknow, get in there and just like
soothe the skin over time.
Right.
And this particular client camein and, you know, I felt the
need because I wasn't wearingmakeup that day, you know?
And I was just healing from thisfricking chemical peel that Yes.

(21:36):
Makes you peel.
I was already not feeling great,you know what I mean?
But I was like, you know what,we're gonna own it.
This is my skin.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
And so I told this client, I waslike, Hey, I feel like I just
need to give you a heads upcoming off of a chemical peel
this, that or the other.
Um, you know, I'm trying to healthese things.
She was like, you know what Iwas gonna ask'cause you don't
look very professional today.

(21:58):
And I was like, oh, why do yousay that?
And she goes, if you were one ofmy girls working for me, I
would've sent you home.
Where's your full face ofmakeup?
You look, you, you don't lookput together.
And I was like, and I had tojust kind of like,'cause again,
that is one of my deepestinsecurities, right.
And I'm just outwardly sharingto say, Hey, this is what I'm
doing for myself.
I was actually excited to go onthe process.

(22:19):
But to be met with somethinglike that, you don't look the
part now, you know what I mean?
To, for you to be in yournatural skin, you don't look the
part.
Yeah.
And I had to like, I was withher for three hours after that.
And I had to like hold it and belike, you know what?
It's okay.
Like sticks and stones, youknow, but it was just one of the
sticks and stones they made.
Break my bones.

(22:40):
I'll take a stick right now.
I know.
I was like, this is, it justmade me reflect so much when I
got home because I had to sitwith myself and be like, it's
okay.
Yeah.
Like I love expressing myselfthrough makeup.
Yeah.
I always have, ever since I wasa kid, but I wanted to start
bridging this, this newrelationship where with myself,

(23:01):
where I could say, you knowwhat, it would be really nice if
I could go out and not have towear a full face of makeup and
feel really good about it.
I feel bad for anybody thatworks for her.
I know, I know.
And I mean, that's toxic.
That's a toxic work environment.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I mean, again, coming from awoman too, that was, you know, I
just was like, I was like, damn,like that was it.

(23:22):
It was gutting.
But at the same time too, like.
To be able to speak to it, to beable to have also had other
clients in my chair, otherhairstylists that have been in a
similar situation before.
Um, I was just like, this is anexperience that I'm having, but
I don't necessarily have to letit define something about me.
I don't have to immediately goback and be like, well, my
skin's still healing, but let methrow a full face of makeup on

(23:43):
really quick.
Like, I sat with it and was justlike, that is her thing.
Like, that doesn't have todefine how I can, that's also
not even like your ideal clienteither.
Yeah, right.
It's like fine right night, youknow, passing in the night.
Mm-hmm.
Like, that's another thing too,is even energetically just
thinking about if, if you have aclient that is like that mm-hmm.

(24:04):
It's like, ooh, okay, wellthat's just, that's not a
personal thing.
That's just, imagine the waythat I look at it when it's
people like that, I'm just like,I can't imagine what it'd be
like to live in that brain.
Mm-hmm.
Where I'm just constantlythinking I need to put a full
face of makeup on Yeah.
To show up.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

(24:24):
And that's sad.
Mm-hmm.
That's so sad.
Yeah.
It was a, a very, and just saythat to another woman, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And it's just like, ugh.
Yeah.
And at the time it was like, youknow, I was probably 26 mm-hmm.
At the time, you know what Imean?
Still coming from a very, like,how do I arrive in this space?

(24:46):
I'm two years new to Austin.
I'm dealing with humidity.
It's hot.
I'm like glistening all thetime.
So I'm like, I'm like, how do wemake up here?
Coming from Austin or, uh, fromMaryland, it was just like, you
don't really, you can't reallywear makeup here, by the way.
Your skin looks great.
Thanks.
We've been working on it forlike 10 years, so shout out to

(25:07):
all my Estes.
Because Estes, yeah.
Literally it's, um, it's been ajourney.
But again, like had I not hadthat like pivotal also moment of
friction because it came upagainst myself where I was like,
you know what, I'm really.
I could go hide back in thisshell again.
And that wouldn't feel good.

(25:28):
Or I could embrace what she saidand and take it and just say,
okay.
But I know I don't wanna treatpeople that way.
If I was ever, I mean, in herpoint of position, if I ever had
people under me, it would belike, express yourself in the
way that feels really good foryou.
Yeah.
Because that's healthy.
Yeah.
Literally.
And it's like, it's funny though'cause I think people like that
will be like, we can't find goodstaff.
It's like, hmm mm-hmm.

(25:50):
It's a staff issue.
Yeah.
Are you sure?
And that was a revolving door,you know?
Yeah.
That was one of those thingswhere I was like, we can't
figure out why.
No, I get it.
Yeah.
I love it when like, gosh, theamount of like bosses I've had
over the years or like seeingother businesses that just wanna
just bitch about staff, and I'mlike.
Are you not looking?
If, if you have a staff issue,it's you.

(26:11):
Yeah.
Either you're hiring or hiringwrong, or you're a bad leader.
Mm-hmm.
And you, either way you need tofigure out mm-hmm.
And stop.
But people mm-hmm.
Will just keep pushing thebutton and be like, I can't look
inward at all.
So it's everybody else's fault.
Right.
And it's funny'cause it's justlike, it's really not that hard.
Treat people well.
Mm-hmm.
And get the people who believein the same things, your mission

(26:34):
and your core values.
Mm-hmm.
And, and yeah.
I mean, I, that's abuse tomm-hmm.
Tell people that they have tolook a certain way and like.
And send them home.
Mm-hmm.
If they don't look up to yourstandards.
Oh yeah.
I mean, but that came from eventhe very beginning of me getting
into the hair industry too.
Like I remember I'm, I'm surethat's all over the beauty
industry.

(26:54):
Yes.
Yes.
Because it's like if you, it'snot just her.
If you aren't looking likeyou're coming out of some sort
of, um, Instagram or Pinterestad, or at the Time Magazine ad,
you know what I mean?
And it wasn't that you werepolished and had uncomfortable
shoes on.
There were literal rules in someof the places that I worked that
it was like, if you were not ina healed shoe, you are going

(27:16):
home.
Ew.
And we know, Ew.
Just how terrible that is on ourbody.
Well, you're already standingall day on like concrete 12
hours services.
12, too.
12.
No, I think that it's, it's,it's crazy.
I mean these, these industriesand I mean, it's.
It's similar to like inhealthcare too.

(27:39):
Like if you, like, I probablydon't even know if I could have
a nose ring if I worked atcorporate.
I'm not really sure.
Right.
Um, we would, people would haveto hide their tattoos and their
arms.
Mm-hmm.
And it's like, that's a form ofself-expression.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I mean, it's just,it's so, it's, it's the reason
we need more people going ontheir own mm-hmm.

(28:00):
Or joining teams mm-hmm.
That are supportive.
Mm-hmm.
Because ultimately what we'reseeing is like the old world
dying right now, all thatbullshit.
Mm-hmm.
Like all of, like, you have tolook a certain way, dress a
certain way, and all this stuff.
Yes.
There's a, there's a piece oflooking professional.
Right.
Yeah.
Totally.
I'm not gonna come in inpajamas.
Right.
But yeah, I mean, if I wannawear like baggy jeans mm-hmm.

(28:25):
Mm-hmm.
Like a tee, like a shirt.
Mm-hmm.
That looks like, you know,something like this.
Yeah.
I mean.
It's just, there's a, there's abalance.
Yeah.
I think.
Yeah.
And, um, but I think you'reseeing so many people shift
Yeah.
In the way that they show up.
Like, I, there was a study done,I'm blanking on who it was
through, but basically the topreason people left their work

(28:48):
was due to culture issues.
Mm-hmm.
And I have stayed at places muchlonger than I should have.
Yeah.
Because of the culture mm-hmm.
In that clinic, not the wholebusiness.
Right.
None of the bi whole businessesthat I've ever worked for, I've
ever been fond of.
Right.
There's toxicity in corporateeverywhere.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
In the p in the ones that I'vebeen involved with.
I haven't seen that.

(29:10):
And it's, it's just the morethat we start questioning and
evolving mm-hmm.
And we don't just blindly justtake people say like, oh, I
just, I work for corporate so Ican get a paycheck.
I'm like.
Yeah.
But you can get fired tomorrowand then what are you gonna do?
You don't have a backup.
Right.
You don't have a backup.
And then it's a trade off.
'cause it's like your, yourenergy is now entitled to

(29:33):
somebody that literally doesn'tcare about you.
Yeah.
Like corporate will let you goin a heartbeat and nobody cares
because it's just, it is what itis.
Mm-hmm.
Because it can just say, oh,it's business.
Mm-hmm.
But, um, absolutely.
Well let's dive into our story alittle bit because I think, you
know, when did I go, I went outon my own, what?

(29:55):
2018 and I think you were 2019,right?
2020.
Mm-hmm.
2020.
It was technically.
The midst of the pandemic.
Oh.
It was like just shy.
Oh, that's right.
That's right.
I remember going your place andwe were like all masked up.
Mm-hmm.
Um, yeah.
And so you were such afoundational part of my journey
as well.

(30:16):
And when I, for peoplelistening, I had lost my hair
and I had this long beautiful, Imean, you always made my hair
look so good.
I mean, I got compliments on itall the time.
And it was just, it was such, Ijust identified so much with my
hair.
And then when cancer hit, likeyou don't realize how much you

(30:41):
identify with your hair untilit's gone.
Mm-hmm.
And when it was gone, I mean, Ilost like 80% of it and then
just shaved it.
Right.
I was like, I can't, yeah.
Hair was everywhere.
I was like, I tried to hang onto it.
Mm-hmm.
And um, I think like the hardestthing was just like.
Well, what do I do?
Like now that I'm not getting myhair done mm-hmm.
And I can't style my hair andall this stuff.

(31:03):
And then you helped me, you dyedmy wig, you wouldn't let me pay
for it.
And I was like, let me, youknow, and I was just navigating
so much and I just still, andyou gave me my first haircut for
free, I think after mm-hmm.
Cancer.
And it's just like, um, yeah.
Like it meant a lot.

(31:27):
And so, um, yeah.
And so you wanna kinda diveinto, yeah.
I have witnessed so many peoplegoing through that journey and,
um, you weren't the first personthat I had worked with in that
way.
Um.
There was a number of peoplethat had sort of started that

(31:49):
path that I was, you know,invited to either shave their
head for them or, you know,maybe we closed down the salon
early so that we could have likean intimate moment.
And it was just me and thatperson.
Um, when it came to yourexperience, this was the first
time I had ever done any sort oflike wig work like that.
Mm-hmm.
But I was very confident I coulddo it'cause I've worked with

(32:10):
extensions forever and coloringhair and all of it.
And um, you know, as I had hadthese previous experiences with
women that are already goingthrough the toughest fight of
their life, it is a like switchof everything.
You find this information outand one of the first things that

(32:30):
comes up is like, well, basedoff what I have, am I gonna lose
my hair?
Yep.
That's the first thing you thinkof.
And with that experience, thereis an industry like the wig
industry or the extensions atwhatever it is.
That I watched number, likenumerous clients of mine coming
in, telling me that they gotthis diagnosis.

(32:51):
They were then referred to thiscompany to get a wig or get a
this or get a that.
And then what did they end uppaying?
Thousands, thousands, thousandsand thousands of dollars for
wigs that were no better thangoing to Party city, that were
synthetic, that were, youcouldn't even manage them with
any kind of heat.
So they would come in and I waslike, these are women and I

(33:14):
don't even wanna just say whatthis is.
This affects everyone.
Right?
But the people primarily that Iwas working with was women.
So to see them not only have nowthese medical expenses, but one
of the first things to come upis I just wanna be able to still
connect a little bit with theidentity that I had.
Is there a way to do that?
Yes.

(33:35):
Let me give you this referral,but then let me blow your wallet
up.
I just, I watched thisexperience so many times and you
know.
Trying to work with syntheticwigs and, and all of these
different things.
I just was like, this is.
I was like, wherever you'regetting your referral, right.
We talked about like where youwere getting your wigs from and
things like that.
Because I'd already walked thepath.
I was like, I at least want tolike go through what this

(33:59):
synthetic blend is, real hair,raw hair, whatever it is, so
that we can make sure that youget something that we can work
with.
Mm-hmm.
Because, and it doesn't have tobe thousands of dollars.
So that is just information foranybody that doesn't know it, is
that you do not have to spendthousands of dollars in order to
get your hands on a wig thatcould be synthetic and you know,

(34:19):
um.
We'll say like raw hair blend tobe able to work with, I think
that's important for cliniciansand, you know, movement
professionals too, to hear,because cancer's a big thing
that we, I mean mm-hmm.
You can't not know somebody orhave a patient that's been
affected or currently beenaffected in healthcare.
Yeah.
With it and navigating the wigindustry, you helped me so much.

(34:41):
And then me, like looking atthis and looking at that, I
mean, I think my wig was like$700.
Mm-hmm.
And then my insurance.
So insurance will sometimes payfor it.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, mine did, it just tookforever to get the check.
It took like three months orsomething insane.
But it was, yeah.
I didn't wanna, I wanted a wigbecause I didn't want my
patients feeling bad for me.

(35:02):
Right.
Like, if I was in tech orsomething, I probably would've
just said whatever.
Mm-hmm.
And just wore a hat all thetime.
Mm-hmm.
But there's a different energythat happens, like when people
find out you have cancer.
Yeah.
Um.
They almost feel bad that you'reworking.
Yeah.
And so I only let certainclients know if it affected
their treatment.
Like I remember after one chemo,I woke up and I like could not

(35:23):
get outta bed.
I was so dizzy.
Mm-hmm.
And I canceled a patient likekind of last minute, and that's
not like me.
And I had to tell her and shewas like, she was a cancer
survivor.
Mm-hmm.
And she was like, oh my god, I'mso, I had no idea.
Yeah.
And so there's also likenavigating that when you're in
these industries where it'syou're caring for other people
and you don't want themenergetically worrying about

(35:44):
you.
Mm-hmm.
But at the same time, you'renavigating this thing and you
don't necessarily wanna do itsilently, but it's also not
their thing to take on.
Right.
Totally.
It's kind of like holding thatspace, trying to keep that space
for yourself.
Mm-hmm.
But then additionally, like,yeah, being any sort of client
facing.
Business.
It is so challenging.

(36:04):
I mean, even like, it's not thesame, but just some of the
things that were coming up forme, even just being in the
industry that I was with, or theexposure that I was with the
migraines.
Mm-hmm.
Like I didn't really, I knew thesource, but I didn't wanna speak
to it always.
Mm-hmm.
And so I just think, you know,kind of dialing it back into
having that support as you'regoing through that experience is

(36:27):
so important.
And when you shared thatinformation with me, it was just
one of those things where like,again, I was already in the
midst of my own personal pivot,right?
Kind of silently doing my ownthing behind the scenes.
How do I shift my environmentright now?
Because, you know, there'sstimulation all around too.
Like think about the environmentas a whole in the salon.

(36:50):
Now if you are down to go to aclub and have like a bumping
environment and you're like,alright, I'm going to this salon
go off, right?
Mm-hmm.
But for someone that isnavigating a diagnosis, for
someone that is just goingthrough a depressive experience,
I'm someone that has, you know,dealt with depression myself,
and there were times where I wasjust like, I physically can't

(37:13):
work in this environment rightnow.
There are blow dryers, there'smusic, there's chemicals,
there's so much conversationgoing on.
My nervous system was constantlylike this, you know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
And so as you're walking thatpath, I'm also looking at like,
okay, these are the things thatare coming up for me.
You know, this, this is the, um.

(37:34):
Sort of reactions that I'mhaving to these new products
that are vegan.
And I was like, I can't, withthe vegan products, I know.
I'm like, that doesn't mean it'shealthy.
Or they'll say like, gluten freeor something.
Right.
I'm like, right, right.
Okay.
Yeah.
Like is it really like, I seewhat it's called, green washing,
right?
Yes.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Greenwashing for peoplelistening, it's basically when
these companies brand stuff.

(37:55):
Mm-hmm.
So it looks clean.
Mm-hmm.
But it's actually not.
Yeah.
You know, I just, I was actuallylooking at some of my, um, body
washes I got from Whole Foods.
It has red dye in it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it says 92% clean.
I'm like, why'd you need reddiet?
Like, it's like, I mean, you cango through this whole rabbit
hole.
I mean, it's taken me years toevolve to this point, so I don't
want people stressing out aboutmm-hmm.

(38:16):
This.
Mm-hmm.
Unless you're like reallyaffected by it.
But I think it's important ifwe're dealing with clients that
are chronically sick.
Mm-hmm.
Like what environments are theyin?
What are they breathing in?
Like, this is not what we, wedon't talk about this stuff in
healthcare.
Yeah.
Yep.
And I mean, it is, it's likeagain, when you're in a salon
environment in general, it isjust stimulation on at all

(38:37):
times.
Well, all senses are big.
Oh yeah.
I mean, maybe not taste, butYeah.
I mean if have wine tasting thehairspray, I mean, honestly,
yeah.
There's a lot that, do youremember after when I'd be under
the hair dryer thing, you'dalways get the best massages.
I'm like, of the hand, I waslike, oh my gosh, I'm here just
for the hand massages.
Uh, right.
And so, so much of that, like,again, even just with like being

(39:00):
in the hair industry andwatching, like over the last 15
years, things evolve for me.
My favorite thing in general,when I was doing anything in
school, or, you know, startingin my first salon, I loved the
aspect of like, literally caringfor the person.
Like, I was like, I wanna do anextra head massage.
I wanna do the things, I wanna,whatever.
And then you get into your firstsalon and they, they tell you

(39:21):
like, you know, go, go, go, go,go.
You're trying to produce moneyfor this place, right?
If you're not moving fastenough, right.
Well, I got into all kinds ofeducation when I was first in
the industry and I loved that.
You know, I'm an informationperson.
I wanna do the best that I can.
I don't think.
I don't think cosmetologyteaches you much other than PA
to pass the state boards.

(39:41):
I definitely recommend toanybody that's going that path
to find a really well-suitededucational experience outside
of it, but being wrapped up inthat environment of go, go, go,
go, go, go, go, go, go.
You're constantly moving andyou're constantly producing.
There's no, there's no settlingdown in those moments.
Mm-hmm.
There was no time for me to belike, okay, well, but I want,

(40:03):
alright, Susan's already outtathe chair.
Okay, well I wanna try and slowthis moment down for her for a
second.
I wanna do the head massage.
Sorry, it's taking too long.
Get her in the chair.
Yeah.
And it's wild to me that so manyof those aspects will have been
literally stripped and lost.
And if you talk to anyone now, Imean they'll still tell you, oh,
my favorite part of going to thehairdresser a lot of the times
is to get like the head massage.

(40:25):
I love, I love when they rub myhead, oh this girl.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well it's also like, it's funny'cause.
From like a business standpoint,I can understand why people are
like money.
Money, right?
Mm-hmm.
But I'm also like, you're,you're only use, you're using
that as your only currency.
Yeah.
So let's put like, that's whatthey would do in like the PT
world mm-hmm.
Is like, let's just pump allthese patients onto a new grad

(40:47):
schedule that that new gradburns out two years in.
Mm-hmm.
And then they leave.
Mm-hmm.
And so then think about all ofthat revenue loss because that
person left.
Yeah.
So they're not even looking atit.
If you wanted to look at it fromjust like a capitalistic
standpoint.
Mm-hmm.
Like you're actually doing harm.
Mm-hmm.
Because that person is going toleave, they cannot physically
sustain it.
They will either leave or theywill get sick.

(41:10):
And then at that point, you'regonna have to make up for all of
the people that won't come backbecause that person's gone.
'cause that's going to happen.
Think about all the time you'reretraining somebody else.
Totally.
So that's just, that's not evenfrom an energetic level, that's
just pure, like running abusiness.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And so how do you feel good ifyou're p.
Practitioners can't sit for aminute and then do what they

(41:33):
enjoy.
Yeah.
If you feel that way and, andyou know, it's like, I think
that's funny'cause it's almostlike, okay well then raise the
rate like 30 extra bucks so youdon't have to run around with
your head cut off.
Yeah.
Like that's what I see is like,okay, well raise your rates a
little bit.
Mm-hmm.
Or maybe figure out a way thatpeople aren't just constantly on
the go.

(41:53):
And that's what's like in the PTworld, I mean I would treat
anywhere from 50 to 80 patientsa week.
Yeah.
For seven years.
Yeah.
And even now, like I'msubstantially less, I treat like
maybe 10 to 15 people a week.
Mm-hmm.
Well, like our team is growing,so they're growing their
practices more than mine'causeI'm running the practice.
But even that I feel this kindof like, oh my God, I'm not

(42:14):
doing enough.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
But I'm like, well I'm, youknow, I do my podcast, I am
speaking at a menopause eventtonight I am meeting other
practitioners that also feelaligned and like, I think the
important thing is.
If people do break out of theseplaces or when they do,
recognizing that there is anervous system reset and you

(42:36):
have to retrain your nervoussystem.
'cause if you don't do that,you're gonna do the same shit.
Mm-hmm.
That caused you leave in thefirst place.
I love it.
Like people joke like, oh, work,work somebody else.
Work 40 hours a week, work foryourself.
Work 24 hours a day.
Yeah.
I don't think that's funny.
Yeah.
I don't think that's funny.
'cause it's basically just likeyou di the inner work hasn't
been done mm-hmm.
To process undoing and unstripping all of those old

(43:00):
beliefs.
Yeah.
And that takes time to kind ofsit in, do breath work, slow
down.
Oh yeah.
Check in with your body.
But if we don't do that, you're,we just then perpetuate.
What causes to burn out at theprevious place in the first
place?
Absolute.
So we're actually not getting tothe root.
Yeah.
And then if our nervous system'soffset, we don't provide a
healing environment for ourclients.
Oh, totally.

(43:21):
Yeah.
I mean, just in you speaking tothat, like even the way that I
run my experiences now, which,you know, I've slowed way down
in the sense of the actualexperience itself.
I've completely Well explainpeople what you do probably.
Yeah.
So I went from being in, youknow, I say I'm a, I'm a reco,
I'm a recovering hustler becauseliterally hustler, we're huling

(43:41):
out here in these streets as ahairstylist, right?
I think the Austin streets.
Yeah, Austin streets.
Um, I think that there's areally.
Interesting connection betweenCOVID when I started my
business, and then how I wasable to operate after that.
Because I started three weeksbefore the pandemic actually

(44:03):
hit.
I had no idea that this washappening in the world, and I'm
glad I had my blinders on, youknow what I mean?
Yeah.
There's a good chance that I maynot have gone into this industry
for myself or you know, goneinto business for myself if I
had known what was going on inthe world.
So anyways, as I, you know, hadthose first three weeks of
clients, again, I was operatingexactly as I was because number

(44:24):
one, what am I trying to do?
Most of my clients were like,hell yeah, I'm coming with you.
What do you mean?
Like, can you set me up?
Same time, say day, like, what'sgoing on?
And I'm like, yep.
The whole thing with that islike, again, that perpetuates
that same cycle that I wasalready living in, and at that
point I was servicing like sixto eight people a day.
Mm.
That's easily, especially forcolor services, 10 to 12 hours,
you know what I mean?

(44:45):
With a few sprinkled haircuts inthere.
And you know, on my max days was12 people.
Imagine how long that, you know,it's like those days in general.
So I already knew going into myown space, I was like, I gotta
cut this down a little bit.
I don't know how, but that'swhere this COVID blessing came
in, right?
Because three weeks I workedexactly the same way that I did

(45:05):
prior.
And additionally, during thattime, I also like to say I was
learning a new language becauseI went completely shifted
everything on a on, its on itshead and said, I'm gonna bring
in completely new products.
I'm gonna go the more holisticroute.
I'm not gonna bring in anyredkin, any pureology, any of
the stuff that was breaking meout because why?
And I communicated that with myguests.

(45:27):
I was like, look, we're gonna bein a period of question mark.
Like when I do your color, I'mgonna need the feedback as to
like, was this okay?
How was the coverage?
All of the things.
But during that time to learn anew language.
As somebody sitting in yourchair like to look at these
boxes and be like, yep, thislooks about right.
And to try and say like, okay,well we're just gonna see what

(45:48):
happens.
It's an experiment, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And that was stressful too, youknow, to to, to even be by
myself.
I'm not running anything byanybody, but it was a level of
trust that I knew what I wasdoing.
You know?
I was able to learn thosethings, but then coming back
from those nine weeks off, I gotto sit, I got to learn about
scalp care.
I got to learn about all thesethings that have been like

(46:09):
really like kind of sprinklinglittle, it's those little
whispers.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's one of those things wherelike, anytime I was doing color
and somebody had like flakyscalp, irritated scalp, red
scalp, whatever, I'd be like,Hey, what's going on?
We're using a detox shampoo,what's happening, you know what
I mean?
Because like science side of meloves that.
Yeah.
Loves scalp education.
So essentially I was able tolearn the foundation of all of

(46:30):
that scalp education through theproduct line that I had invested
in, which was beautiful.
During the pandemic, they weregiving a lot of free education.
'cause everybody was just like,chronically online, right?
So I was like, no, let's goahead.
So I was learning a lot fromdifferent countries, which was
incredible.
But then that like, you know,sparkle whisper of like, oh,
this is what I wanna do.

(46:51):
I was also like, I'm gonna haveto figure out how to hold this
space and what I was doing withcolor haircut, highlighting all
of that.
And then also try and work inscalp care when we're gonna come
back from the pandemic.
And we're not even gonna knowhow to hold space.
Like, we're not even gonna knowhow to be together, you know,
like, and I'm gonna be suited upin something that I've never
worked in before.

(47:12):
And I run hot baby.
So I literally was like, okay,let's just see what happens.
And what it did is it allowed meto space out my day.
So I'd have a client, I'd have aminimum of 30 minutes in between
each client so that I could gothrough the proper sanitation
protocols, do the things that Ineeded to do.
Because again, even at the time,the conversation online, at

(47:33):
least in our industry, was like,you may not be able to use your
blow dryers because if, ifsomebody has COVID, you're
masked up, you've got your,like, shield on all the things,
but you're blowing around, youknow, they were coming at
hairdressers so hard duringCOVID.
Yeah, yeah.
So it was like, oh, well ifyou're using a blow dryer
during, you know, this, uh, youknow, devastating time of COVID,
then you know, you shouldn'teven have your license at this

(47:54):
point.
And it's like, well, what are weto do?
You know what, we're just tryingour best, you know?
So I ultimately, once I got usedto this schedule of like having
a client, having this break,number one, I mean.
We don't even talk about theexacerbated eating disorders
that happen being a hairstylist,because you go into a business

(48:16):
that allows you no breaks, nowater, no bathroom, no full
meals.
Literally, it's like that in PTtoo.
Yeah, it's like that inhealthcare.
Yes.
So it's one of those thingswhere I was like, hold on.
So all of a sudden, me havingthis space, yes, I was detoxing
my space and all of that, but atthe same time too, I was like,
hold on.
I got a second to like eat myfood.
I got a second to like go to thebathroom.

(48:37):
I gotta, and then all these,like it started clicking in,
right?
Which then has now progressed meto this place of, you know, I
loved doing hair color and Ideeply enjoyed the artistic side
of it.
However, three years into meusing those holistic products, I
started feeling very similarsymptoms to what I was

(48:58):
experiencing when I left Redkinand the salon space.
So that was devastating for mebecause I.
Love connecting with my clientsin that way.
That meant someone like you whois still continuing to get their
hair color touched up, you know,grays, blended, whatever the
case may be.
I had to say, now I have tocompletely shift and invite you

(49:19):
to see someone else.
No, I've had, I mean, it was itfor me, it was almost like at
perfect timing because I waslike, why am I doing this?
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
And, and I could see youstruggling.
You'd be like, I can still doit.
Yeah.
I was like, eh, don't worry.
Like, honestly, I don't evenwant to do it anyway.
Yeah.
Like, why am I even doing?
Yeah.
It's so funny how energeticallywe've been on these, like
similar mm-hmm.

(49:40):
Paths mm-hmm.
With it.
Yeah.
But I, and, and even just seeingwhat you're, like, you're about
to go into mm-hmm.
With, with the head spa.
Mm-hmm.
Okay, keep going.
Yeah, so I mean, ultimately withthat, like, again, it feels like
a, a devastating loss when youhave to release these clients
that have been through it withyou.

(50:00):
Like at that point it had been,it's great seven, eight years of
me being able to sit with thesepeople, laugh with these, they,
I call you all my family.
Because I went into business formyself and you all showed up for
me.
And that was just like in a timewhere the world was just a huge
ass question mark that was sosupportive and so healing for

(50:22):
me.
And then also just like a wildride, you know?
But you always had this like,thing about you that you're just
like, like you like knew whatyou were doing and everything
was like gonna work out.
Mm-hmm.
I think that's just like theundertone of number one.
I, I will say a lot of thatfoundation that I found in those
first couple years of going intothe industry that was like, you

(50:45):
know, the education I got there,I will always say that I'm so
grateful for, even though ittook me out as like a 19 to
21-year-old person, it was oneof those things where I was
working that hard.
I was being witnessed by peoplethat were platform artists that
taught other stylists, um, atbig, huge events.
And I just was like, you know,it was a blessing to have that

(51:09):
work and that that education theway that I did.
And I also understand now,looking back in a lot of ways,
how.
I would do things differently ifI was put into that position for
a young person.
Because again, you're setting upthe expectation that like,
you're gonna hustle, you'regonna do this, you know, we're

(51:30):
gonna continue to watch you asyou continue to fall.
We're gonna, you know, helpsupport you, but we're also
gonna put you back in yourplace.
Because we want the best foryou.
But it is a rigid experience,you know?
So when I came here to Austinand like people wanted to like
look at you in the face,'causeagain, Maryland, I'm close to,
you know, it's like going to NewYork City, right?
It's one of those things whereI'm like, I'm close enough to

(51:51):
Baltimore that it's like, no, weain't hugging each other.
We ain't looking at each otherin the eye like, I love you from
afar, but happy to do yourservice.
See you later, right?
Yeah.
Even though there's like thisbeautiful can Syrian energy in
there with me coming to Austinwas a huge culture shock.
Yeah.
Because I was watching peoplelike.
Slow things down, even thoughwe're a melting pot of all kinds
of different people.

(52:12):
It was a completely differentenvironment going into a salon
and seeing my coworkers like hugtheir clients goodbye.
I was like, oh, is that yourhusband?
She's like, no, it's my client.
I was like, oh, interesting.
Is that your child?
Yeah.
Right.
Oh.
Um, got it.
So it's like this, this like newexperience kind of coming into
this like level of care.

(52:32):
Yeah.
You know?
Um, but yeah.
But dive into your experiencefrom the head spot industry.
'cause you've really been apioneer in that.
And I think that it's good forpeople to hear and understand
how scalp and the fascia aroundthe scalp and how that affects
health.
Yeah.
Um, and so if you wanna kind ofdive in a little bit to that

(52:54):
because Yeah, absolutely.
We don't look at the scalp muchas practitioners.
I mean, I look, we look at it,we're starting to look at it
more, but it's still like if youlook at the fascia components,
how the scalp like fasciaconnects all the way down.
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
To even the feet.
Yes.
And so explain a little bitabout like some things that.

(53:15):
You know, just a little bitabout scalp health.
Yeah.
So as I transitioned into scalphealth, the biggest and nerdiest
part of me is the fact that Iget to look at your scalp under
microscope.
And with that it's being ableto, you know, I never say
diagnose, you're just looking atwhat the current environment of
the scalp is.
Um, so being able to assess likeis it dandruff, is it dry scalp?

(53:38):
Is it, you know, over oily orproduction of oils on your
scalp?
Um, have we been taught properways of shampooing our hair?
And this is where I will come inand say that shampooing and
connecting with our scalp ingeneral is the best foundational
experience we can have, becausenone of us were ever properly
taught these things.
No, we see our hair, but wedon't see our scalp.

(54:00):
Whether we are going through theprocess of, you know, regrowing
our hair, cutting our hair,whatever the case, it's always
been about the hair, but it'snever been about like, where has
the hair come from?
Right.
Totally.
No.
When, yeah, when I think about,you know, being able to see
these things under themicroscope, that's so cool.
And that's so like illuminating.
But the first thing I'll tellpeople is you are not, you're

(54:20):
gonna do yourself a disserviceif you're not connecting with
your scalp on a daily basis.
Right?
And especially for someonethat's going through any sort of
hair depletion that could befrom a diagnosis, that could be
from auto you, an autoimmune,that could be anything.
And so I tell people connectingwith your scalp, because you may
think like, oh, but I'm losingmy hair.
I'm, I'm, I'm afraid that I'mgonna pull more out If you are
not activating blood flow andgetting that oxygen to the scalp

(54:42):
to really support thosecapillaries to help rebuild
those hair strands.
We're gonna fall flat.
And it's just not, it's theability to be able to like
replenish that environment on adaily basis that helps catapult
you into like hair growth and ahealthy environment.
It's wild because like when,when did you do my hair?
Like three weeks ago?

(55:02):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Um, my hair was falling out.
Like I kept, like I, you know,I've gone to the point where I
wash every other day or so.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but every time I'd wash itwould just start like coming
out.
Like, I was like, oh my gosh.
Like that's weird.
Mm-hmm.
Like, there's a lot of clumpsand then I, you know,
immediately when you lose hair,people are like, oh my God, it's
autoimmune, or this, or this orthis.

(55:23):
Yeah.
And I think it's super importanttoo because I'm in
perimenopause.
Mm-hmm.
Um, anytime there's hair loss,it, it is a little triggering.
'cause it reminds me of chemo.
Totally.
Totally.
Um, but I have not had thatsince our treatment.
Mm-hmm.
And.
And I think from a practitionerstandpoint, I think it's super

(55:45):
great to just like tell ourclients like, okay, well is the,
is the scalp like, are youmassaging your scalp?
Mm-hmm.
Are like, what are some things,when you say like, connecting
with your scalp mm-hmm.
What does that mean?
Yeah.
So I really like to try andsupport a ritual at home that
feels doable for you.
Right.
Because not everybody's gonnahave what I do, which is almost

(56:08):
two hours of scout massage aday.
'cause I'm serious.
Like, there is now education outthere that is supportive of our
epigenetics genes, all of that.
That quite literally, if you aremassaging your scalp on a daily
basis for up to two hours a day,then yes, that is going to
absolutely break down this orturn off and on this, um,

(56:28):
epigenetic coating, right?
That we each have to say like,oh, we get to produce more hair,
but we have to have that bloodflow.
We have to have those things.
Right.
So, um.
Sorry, I forgot your question.
Oh, just so massaging the scalp.
Yes.
I mean, I'm gonna tell you, Idon't massage my scalp no.
Two hours a day.
No, and that's, yeah, so that'swhere I'll say like just in
general.

(56:48):
Creating a ritual that feelseasy for you?
Yeah.
When I tell people in general,because we're not just, again,
we're not connecting with ourscalp on a daily basis.
Oh, I have this, we've nevertalked, like literally it's
never talked about.
Yeah, I've talked about this formyself and I've done this for
myself and I've gone throughthese rituals and I've been
like, okay, we have to startwith something before we just
blast off into, you know, themost effective ways.

(57:10):
Right?
So I typically tell people atthe end of the night, whether it
is a silicone, little scrubbybrush that you have, right?
Keeping that baby clean ifyou're touching it with your
scalp.
A lot of people are using thatin the shower.
I always say, rip that babyoutta the shower.
Keep it outta the shower andlike use it as your scalp tool
for your massage.
Because a lot of times, again,the pressure on that, that you
can get it invigorates a littlebit more blood flow, sometimes

(57:33):
even more than our fingers can.
Um, so using a tool can bereally helpful, but it could be
for up to like, you know, maybeyou're doing it for two minutes,
starting out.
Maybe you're just like, it'ssomething.
Or even as they wash their hair,like what was the thing you
said?
You said yes.
To kind of get in.
Mm-hmm.
Like once you.
When you're shampooing kind ofpart it, scrub it.
Yes.
And then you're getting like thedifferent layers of it too.

(57:54):
So you're not just like washingyour hair, you're like scrubbing
your scalp in lines.
Yes, yes, exactly.
So you know, for the foundationof actually washing your hair,
you know, so many of us Yes,have been washing our hair
because we put our products onour head and we're like moving
it around the hair.
But I'm like, is that, is thatsuds?
Is that emulsification actuallyhappening at the scalp?

(58:16):
Right.
Because someone will come in andI'll look at their scalp under
their microscope and they'll sayThey washed yesterday.
And there will be still so muchstuff that's just hanging out,
hanging out, whether that's likebuildup, you know, debris,
whatever, dead skin cells, youknow what I mean?
And a lot of times it's becauseyou've got thick hair.
Oh my God.
So much hair.
It's one of those things wherelike when somebody has thick
hair even too, it's parting itdown the middle, really opening

(58:40):
that hair up, allowing it to getwaterlogged, like super dense
with water.
'cause again, when we get in theshower, we are thinking about
everything else.
Except, except being in theshower.
We are like, oh, what do I haveto do outside of the shower when
I get out of here?
Right.
This is where we slow down theritual to really be able to just
like, spend that moment ofself-care for yourself.

(59:01):
Do something more intentionallywith your scalp that'll help
promote more blood flow, hairgrowth, all of it.
But then also you're settingyourself up because if you are
cleaning it properly, a lot oftimes that, you know, people
that are washing every singleday, it's because a lot of times
they're just not cleaningproperly.
You know?
Well, what, what, explain why,like,'cause I, you were saying

(59:22):
all this stuff for scalp health.
Mm-hmm.
And I go, okay, okay, but what'slike the, the real rea like,
give me like why should I careabout it?
That's kind of what I said.
You were like, well, basically.
It helps with hair loss.
Yeah.
Yep.
And so if we have clients withperimenopause or hormone changes
or things like that mm-hmm.
And that's a big concern thatthey're having.

(59:44):
Yeah.
Even just getting them to startconnecting, like with their
scalp.
Mm-hmm.
Massaging it and understanding.
But why, like,'cause when youdid mine, we saw like the debris
at the root.
Mm-hmm.
Um, why is it that, like whydoes that affect, um, hair
growth?
Hair loss?
Like,'cause it's already there.

(01:00:04):
Mm-hmm.
And there's just clumps aroundit.
Mm-hmm.
And it's just kind of hangingout at the root.
Why does that, why does cleaningthat out change hair loss?
Yeah.
So ultimately, we've alreadytalked about blood flow.
Cool.
Yeah.
That's really supportive.
But when you have a.
Scalp environment that is eitherfull of what can be even our

(01:00:27):
water source, right?
Our water source is not cleanand pure.
Here in Austin we've gotchemicals, minerals, deposits,
prescriptions, all kinds ofstuff in our water, right?
And then you get to a placewhere that is kind of harboring
on the scalp.
'cause a lot of us air dry.
Mm-hmm.
So I always tell people, if youcan just bring that blow dryer
in and those first 10 minutesjust to blast that water source
out, that will help with likereleasing a film that can also

(01:00:49):
start to suffocate the scalp.
Right.
I always say this is a humidenvironment up here.
You get out of the shower, it'sa humid environment.
What is that?
A breeding ground for bacteria.
A lot of us are sleeping withour hair wet.
Right.
So when that stuff lays rightand then you have it is like
yawning.
That's my dog.
She's my sweet angel.
Um, when you have that areathat's already kind of, you

(01:01:12):
know, being impacted by just awater source, right?
It's like getting moldy.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeast, fungal infections, all ofthat can happen.
I'm like scratching my, I'm likeliterally yeast in here.
Do I have a yeast infection onmy scalp?
No, we just looked.
You're good.
Like, no, it's just my vagina.
Yeah.
So ultimately when you comeinto, you know, contact with
that water source, you're blowdrying that out.

(01:01:33):
You're helping support thatenvironment.
Yeah.
But when those oils come in, andthis is what was happening for
you personally, is your oilswere.
Naturally coming out of the hairfollicle.
And I always say a lot of timesthose hair, the oil wants to go
up the hair strand and it wantsto nourish and replenish the
scalp.
But if that film is present theway that it typically is, then

(01:01:53):
those oils can't penetrate thatfilm and it starts building
around the hair base when thoseoils, that's why my hair felt
really dry.
Yeah.
Well it also felt just a littlebit built up and we had those
little like flaky that you couldsee, right?
Yeah.
So it was oil that had drieddown.
So you didn't have dry scalp,you didn't have dandruff'cause
it hadn't, you know, progressedto a fungal infection.
Yeah.
It quite literally had just beenold oils that you weren't

(01:02:15):
getting to.
Right.
And so keeping a clearenvironment helps support hair
growth because when those oilscome up and then they harbor
around the hair base and itdries down, that can not only
impact the actual, like,quickness that the hair grows.
Right.
Because it's creating like aspeed bump.

(01:02:37):
So that hair's trying to grow,but that like waxiness of your
oils have already built, it's angro hair kind of thing.
It's, yeah.
And that's how we end up withthings like folliculitis of the
scalp and all of that, becauseagain, it's like, it's just not
being cleaned properly.
So when I look at like the bestscenario for most people, right?
I mean, yes I service mostpeople here in Austin, but I've

(01:02:59):
traveled all over the place andseen, you know, scalps
elsewhere.
And a lot of us, again, it'sjust the foundation of being
able to clean your scalp at avery like foundational level,
getting to your actual scalprather than cleaning just your
hair.
Um, and oils help with that too.
So a lot of times people will belike, well I use this shampoo, I
use detox shampoo all the time.

(01:03:20):
I'm trying to do this, I'mtrying to do that.
And you know, they think theyhave all the right tools and
typically they have all theright things.
Yeah.
It's just how we are using them.
Um, so when I explain the basicscience of our scalp health in
general.
Natural scalp oils that we canuse to replenish and keep a
rebalanced and hydratedenvironment.

(01:03:41):
It's going to be that we'reusing the scalp oils, putting
that on our scalp, massaging ourscalp because like attracts like
your natural oils up here thatare kind of hanging out, that
are older that we can't see thatyou're like, oh yeah, if I itch
my scalp, I can kind of feelthat like waxiness on my
fingers.
If you're using a scalp oil,yeah, yeah.
You're literally getting inthere and allowing that stuff to

(01:04:01):
kind of melt down and then youget in the shower and you're
able to wash that out a littlebit more effectively.
But that's where I'll tellpeople to, um, follow up with a
double cleansing, because whenyou use oil again, water.
An oil has never mixed, you knowwhat I mean?
So when you get in the showerand you're using something that
emulsifies, you just have to bemore intentional about how

(01:04:21):
you're washing, which is why Iwas talking to you about
splitting your hair down themiddle.
Really emulsifying the productin your hand, applying it with
your palm rather than yourfingers.
'cause this is such a smalllittle surface area.
Oh, I thought.
But that's how I would get inthere and scrub it off.
Yeah.
So well, so you're saying likethe whole Yeah.
So if you were to Exactly.
Now that's not necessarily forthe scrubbing process, that's

(01:04:43):
just like applying your product,right?
So if you're massaging that andyou're getting it to a place of
lather, right?
This area is bigger than thisarea.
Yeah.
Right?
So you're just like sparkparting your hair and then
you're placing your palm kind ofdown that parting so it gets to
the root, right?
Yeah.
And or the scalp.
And then you can get in therewith your fingers and start
moving things around.

(01:05:03):
Mm-hmm.
But I always say add more.
Water before adding more productso that that way you can
actually see that likeemulsification happening.
But when you're working withoils, know that that first
shampoo is gonna be really,really important to just at
least try and move that stuffout of there to clear the path.
And then that second shampoowill actually like, feel like
you lathered and you're like,okay, cool.
Now I'm Gucci and I feel reallynice and clean.

(01:05:23):
Um, but a clean environment isalways going to help support
hair growth so much more than ifyou were to think, you know, I
mean, think about a garden,right?
We're like planting thesebeautiful seeds and we're like,
okay, cool.
I'm gonna create this fabulousnutrient rich soil.
And then all of a sudden youcome out there and you're like,
nevermind, I'm gonna putpesticides AKA dry shampoo.
I'm gonna, you know, layer itwith this.

(01:05:45):
I use dry shampoo though.
Yeah.
And you can, it's just a matterof knowing, knowing how Mine's
more of the natural stuffthough.
I don't So like a powder?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.
So powder dry shampoo alwayssuperior to an aerosol dry
shampoo just because, um, peopleout there, if you're using an
aerosol.
Dry shampoo.
The first thing I want you torun and look at is if it has

(01:06:05):
butane.
'cause butane is a knowncarcinogen and it's the number
one ingredient in a dry shampooaerosol.
And it's typically the firstingredient.
And we know the potency of whenit is the first ingredient.
That can be really, really, um,yeah, what we were talking about
earlier.
It could be really, it'sdisruptive to our health.
Well, it's like a balance.
'cause it's like, I think whenpeople are first going on this

(01:06:25):
journey mm-hmm.
Like I threw out everything andthen I was like, I can't do
that.
And just ease into it.
First work on nervous system.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and then just startingbeing aware of like your body
and, and the signals that that'scoming from it.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and then slowly evolving,but I think it's important that
we're bringing awareness to itso that when people are ready to
make the change Oh yeah.

(01:06:46):
Because maybe they're noticingit in their health, then they
have that resources.
So basically a lot of it is.
Massaging the scalp regularly,like when you're washing your
hair mm-hmm.
Get in between mm-hmm.
Get to the scalp, fold yourhair, go along that line.
Um, scalp oils.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, blow drying your hairafter.
So it's not just like mildewing,yeasty environment.

(01:07:07):
Yeah.
And I just tell people with theblow dryer, like again, we've
been taught for the last 15 to20 years that heat is bad, don't
use heat.
All of those things.
And what I wanna say to you,because a lot of people will be
like, oh.
Homework.
No.
'cause we all have our ownrelationship with the blow dryer
and it's not always super fun,you know?
So I always say if you can getin there for like, you know,
five to seven minutes and justblast dry the scalp, that is

(01:07:29):
gonna be so supportive.
You don't have to do your wholehead, you know what I mean?
Well, yeah.
You don't have to go throughyour whole entire, you know,
yeah.
Scalp to ends, but as, as longas you can get in there and just
release your scalp of themoisture, that will be so
important and so supportive.
I've started doing that asecond.
So just like folding it and thenjust getting to the scalp.
It also is better'cause when yousleep, I can like visualize now,

(01:07:52):
like after you said that I waslike, I'm like visualizing just
like this.
Like what other part of us wouldwe just let hang out Being moist
with product.
Like we don't do that.
Right.
I know, I know.
I know.
It's'cause we can't see it.
Well I also kind of think thatabout like the vagina too.
Yeah.
Like we wear like tight pantsYes.
All day.
Yeah.
And just like sitting in that.

(01:08:14):
Yeah.
Like.
Like, I'm thi happy that thingsare moving now where we're not
wearing like these tight clothesall the time.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm Oh, I bet we can breathe.
Yeah, I know vaginas are happyeverywhere.
I know.
But we just need good materialsfor them too, you know?
I know.
That's a whole nother thing.
We could talk about that anothertime.
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much forcoming on.
I feel like we could talk forhours.
Oh, no, we could.

(01:08:35):
We literally could.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I will say, I'll just likeplug my resources so that, that
way Yeah.
If anybody out there, how canthey find you?
Yes.
So, um, essentially, yes, I'mhere in Austin, Texas.
I offer these really beautiful,um, heads spa experiences.
I like to kind of call it thisbalance of education and zen
time.
Um, but if you are not local andyou know, you are just looking

(01:08:55):
to support your scalp from homeand you're like, she was talking
a lot about foundation and this,that, and the other, but you
don't know where to start.
Um, it is quite literally aguide that I have already
created in micro films thatwalks you through, you know.
How to prep your scalp beforeyou get in the shower.
How to scalp oil, why scalpoiling is important, who it's
important for, how to water log,how to detox your hair, what

(01:09:16):
detox shampoo to choose.
If you're kind of in that like,shift of trying to figure out,
you know, um, I, I wanna explorethe nont talk and or low tox
route, but I don't know where togo.
This is for you, for thoseresources.
Because again, I was just seeingsuch a hole when I would send
people home after thesebeautiful experiences and then I
had to think about myself as aconsumer because I go and have

(01:09:38):
my skin done and I have a lot ofquestions after that.
And so I was like, how can Isupport people from home as a
follow-up or somebody that'sjust curious about building a
better ritual for themselves ingeneral?
So.
That will go through all ofthose things.
The blow drying is in there, theimportance of all of that.
So a lot of what we alreadyspoke to is in an online
resource.

(01:09:59):
It's called How to un Funk YourScalp so that that way you can
feel really confident at home.
And what's your website thatthey can find out?
My website is gem empire haircom.
You forgot for a sec.
Yeah.
'cause I was like, is it myemail?
Hold on.
What is my email?
And then your empire InstagramGen Empire.
Yeah.
Jpi Head Spa.
Sweet.

(01:10:20):
Well, thank you so much.
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing thisbeautiful angel with me, this
lovely, lovely time.
She's great for the nervoussystem.
Yeah.
We could have one monthly, wecould talk about so many things.
Oh my gosh.
I feel like we just cracked thesurface.
I know.
But I'm excited that we talkedabout the scalp stuff at the end
because I think people canrelate.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I love it.
Yay.
Thank you.
Thank you.

(01:10:40):
Thank you so much for listeningto my podcast.
It would be a huge help if youcould subscribe and rate the
podcast.
It helps us reach more peopleand make a bigger impact.
I would also love it if youcould join my email list, which
is LinkedIn, the caption forpodcast updates, upcoming offers
and events.
You can also find me on TikTok,YouTube and Instagram at Dr.

(01:11:01):
Mary pt.
Thanks again.

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