January 27, 2022 • 9 mins
How high do you really have to fly to be considered an astronaut? As space tourism takes off, is it safe? We talk with a former NASA space shuttle engineer—Florida Institute of Technology President Dr. T. Dwayne McCay—about these topics and much more in this inaugural episode of Today in STEM. You can read more about Dr. McCay here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Wes Sumner (00:01):
Hello, and welcome to Today in STEM, as we
discuss what's new in the realmsof science, technology,
engineering, and mathematics, asall combined to make your world
a better place.
I'm your host Wes Sumner.
This new program gives you aninside look at all things STEM
hearing from experts andrelating their knowledge to our,
our everyday lives.
(00:21):
For our inaugural show.
We're pleased to have as ourguest, the president of the
Florida Institute of Technology,Dr.
T.
Dwayne McCay.
Welcome, sir.
Good morning, Wesley.
Dr.
McCay has years of experience inspace related enterprises as a
researcher and engineer and aneducator.
He worked for NASA and was incharge of the space shuttle's
main engine.
So he knows a thing or two aboutrockets.
(00:43):
And that's our topic today.
Commercial space travel andspace tourism.
Dr.
McCay, we hear about read about,see stories on an almost daily
basis with the latest news fromcompanies like SpaceX Blue
Origin and Virgin Galactic.
Space tourism seems to be takingoff, but it's not as easy as it
looks, it is rocket science,isn't it?
Dr. Dwayne McCay (01:05):
Well, there's quite a bit of rocket science
involved.
There's no doubt about that.
It's, it's a complicated, uh,program that has to be put
together or launch anything intospace, especially when humans
are involved.
And so I think the space tourismidea, uh, is, uh, something
that's gonna catch and, and get,uh, more and more attention and
grow more and more so and sofar.
(01:27):
So good.
Dr. Wes Sumner (01:27):
With your extensive experience as a rocket
scientist.
If you will tell us a bit aboutthe space-related projects of
which you are proudest over thecourse of your career.
Dr. Dwayne McCay (01:35):
Oh, proudest.
Well, I was always proud to getany of them completed, you know,
so, and most of themwere fairly success, you know, I
, I, you know, thinking back, um, about it, my, my first real
experience when I, I sort of gotthe nickname rocket man, when I
worked for Arnold ed Arnold AirForce Station was, uh, we had,
uh, a set of satellites thatwere, uh, supposed to last about
(01:58):
eight years and they were, uh,capable of, of functioning pro
for only about two.
And so people were trying tounderstand what was going wrong.
So, uh, a design helped designand build a, a, uh, small, uh,
uh, rocket propulsion system and, uh, for a, a very large, uh,
(02:19):
vacuum chamber that allowed usto see whether or not it was the
exhaust of the, uh, of therocket itself and where they
were located on the satellitethat was actually contaminating
the surfaces and thereforeleading to degradation of optics
and, and downstream, it, it, itcaused failure, the ability to
use the satellite and, uh, youknow, so that program was great
(02:43):
fun.
We had to put together, uh, uh,an entire propellant system.
We had to put together a, a feedsystem.
We had to, uh, uh, have a small,uh, rocket system, uh, that,
that had to be designed andbuilt for both using both Mona
propels and, and by propelling.
And, um, uh, it was a hugesuccess.
(03:03):
So, uh, we determined not onlythat, what the problem was, but
a solution to it.
And so, uh, those, uh, they haveother satellites, uh, very
similar that fly today and theyuse that, that technology.
So anytime you have a pro em,that you solve, uh, you feel
good about it.
Uh, you know, I got involved in,in big engines because we had
(03:27):
meltdowns due to, uh, uh, a, uh,design flaw in the space
shuttle, main engine, largenozzle, which consisted of 10,
1080 tubes welded together.
And, and, and, uh, when thatnozzle went through its startup
process, some of them werebreaking.
And when you break hydrogen andoxygen in the same environment,
(03:47):
we all remember what happenedwhen Challenger flew.
So, uh, we had to redesign thatnozzle, and I knew nothing about
big engines.
Uh, you know, my expertise was,is in, uh, in, in, in small
guys, one pounders and less, andone pound thrust and less rather
than, than the, the giant spaceshuttle main engine.
(04:09):
So it was a learning process.
It was a lot of fun.
Um, but I, I think of all thethings that I ever got involved
in was, uh, designing andbuilding the first, uh, uh,
actual laser propel rocket anddid that at Marshall Space
Flight Center.
And I was excited.
I didn't get to finish theproject because we had a problem
(04:29):
on the shuttle with the shuttleengines.
And, um, I got redirect.
That's what I found out about,even though I was a scientist
and did pretty well.
What I pleased at work, as longas I got my projects done, I
found out what it was like tohave a boss.
where I, I told my boss,uh, Mr.
Lombardo, uh, thank you, sir,for the offer, but I have no
interest in working on shuttleengines.
(04:51):
And he said, oh, you don't seemto understand how this works.
Uhoh and I go, well, sir, I'mreally happy, uh, doing my, my,
my laser rocket work.
And he goes, and this is notabout your happiness.
This is about solving a problem.
And, uh, he said, you're now thenew, uh, DVS on this, on the, on
the main nozzle on the, on thelarge nozzle, I said would
(05:14):
certain, he says ourdiscussion's over somebody down
the hallway to, and, uh, stoppedin one of the offices, uh, in
the combustion group.
And I said, Hey guys, what?
What's a, what's a DVS.
And they said, you don't knowwhat that is.
I said, no.
I said, what's a designverification, specification
engineer.
(05:34):
Why'd you ask us?
I goes, cause I am one.
So that was how I got into big,big engines.
Oh,
Dr. Wes Sumner (05:41):
Science and action engine in action.
Right?
Well, there's this big push intocommercial space.
As we talked about at the top ofthe show and space tourism is
taking off, please help usunderstand where does space
really begin and end.
And, and what does that mean tomake an astronaut?
Dr. Dwayne McCay (05:57):
Well, there it's, it's been an ongoing
argument or originally got, uh,settled on by, uh, uh, one of
the committees that, uh, youknow, would be defined as the VA
Carmen line.
Um, and basically it's about 75miles into space.
So, uh, you know, the very firstlaunch that we had with shepherd
, uh, he crossed that linesignificantly.
(06:19):
And, uh, uh, you know, and soastronaut wings were being
awarded to anyone that gotabove, cuz you can fly some, uh,
you know, you can fly to twopretty high, you can fly the Sr
71, pretty high.
You can, you can, there arethings that can get up there,
uh, other than rock and propelvehicles.
And so where you gonna draw theline, who's an AAU and who's an
(06:41):
astronaut.
And so, so they say, okay, ifyou've been above Theon Carmen
line and up until a commercialspace, we'd pretty well thought
that was the case.
Whether they called you anastronaut or a take no, or a
Cosman O they, they allconsidered that same.
And, um, and with some of thecommercial ventures that weren't
going quite that high, uh, thepurist was a, Hey, you know, you
(07:04):
didn't make it.
And, uh, I think, uh, Mr.
Bezos was criticized for that.
I do notice in the, in the, thelatest, uh, launch, uh, uh,
where, uh, uh, uh, captain H andthe others flew that they did
make it above that line.
And so, uh, they couldlegitimately earn, uh, uh,
(07:25):
astronaut wings if there aresuch a thing.
And, uh, so it, it was, uh, youknow, Kevin Kirk, uh, being an
old star Trek lover, and most ofus that ever saw it really were,
uh, he and Spock the others.
Um, uh, I'm glad that Shatner'swings have a little more
validity to them than, than sothat people won't criticize
(07:46):
that.
Dr. Wes Sumner (07:47):
Not at all honorary,
Dr. Dwayne McCay (07:48):
He made the line, he made the, he made the
line, I think.
Yes,
Dr. Wes Sumner (07:50):
Very good.
And, and with, as you say,captain Kirk, uh, William,
Shatner going into space not solong ago as a space tourist, how
safe is, is it really?
Dr. Dwayne McCay (08:00):
Well?
You know, I, I did some of theoriginal safety analysis on the
shuttle and, and we were prettyclose to accurate with regard to
how safe it was.
And, uh, you know, you doprobabilities and, and so, you
know, the, the odds were aboutat that time seemed to be about
one in 25 that would get it,have a significant, um, uh,
(08:22):
malfunction, not the majormalfunction we had, but, but at
least one that would, coulddrink the vehicle and perhaps
even lose a crew, et cetera.
And, and I would guess I havenot had I not been privy to the
information that the commercialcompanies are using or the data
they're going on, but, and, andof course, SpaceX lost some
(08:43):
vehicles early, uh, unmanned ofcourse.
So I would be surprised sincemany of the technologies are the
same.
Uh, the computer technologiesare much better, no doubt about
that.
Uh, but, uh, I'd be surprisedthat they're much safer than
they were then.
Um, uh, I wouldn't say they'renot as safe.
(09:05):
Uh, NASA might say that.
I don't know, but, uh, uh, Iwould be, uh, surprised that
that one in 25, isn't a numberfor them and we haven't had that
many yet.
So we'll see.
So we'll see.
And probabilities are the, youknow, people don't understand
prob every time you launch isstill one in 25, doesn't mean 25
launches later, something'sgonna happen.
(09:27):
It just means each time you stepin the vehicle, there's a one in
25 chance.
If that is an accurate number,that you will have a major
problem.
Dr. Wes Sumner (09:36):
Well, Dr.
McCay, unfortunately, we're outof time for this episode, please
stick around though, and we'llbring you back for part two.
Thank you.
That's all for this edition ofToday in STEM I'm Wes Sumner.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Today in STEM is brought to you by the Florida
Institute of Technology andWFIT.
More information available atwfit.org.
Hello, and welcome to Today in STEM, as we
discuss what's new in the realmsof science, technology,
engineering, and mathematics, asall combined to make your world
a better place.
I'm your host Wes Sumner.
This new program gives you aninside look at all things STEM
hearing from experts andrelating their knowledge to our,
our everyday lives.
(00:21):
For our inaugural show.
We're pleased to have as ourguest, the president of the
Florida Institute of Technology,Dr.
T.
Dwayne McCay.
Welcome, sir.
Good morning, Wesley.
Dr.
McCay has years of experience inspace related enterprises as a
researcher and engineer and aneducator.
He worked for NASA and was incharge of the space shuttle's
main engine.
So he knows a thing or two aboutrockets.
(00:43):
And that's our topic today.
Commercial space travel andspace tourism.
Dr.
McCay, we hear about read about,see stories on an almost daily
basis with the latest news fromcompanies like SpaceX Blue
Origin and Virgin Galactic.
Space tourism seems to be takingoff, but it's not as easy as it
looks, it is rocket science,isn't it?
Dr. Dwayne McCay (01:05):
Well, there's quite a bit of rocket science
involved.
There's no doubt about that.
It's, it's a complicated, uh,program that has to be put
together or launch anything intospace, especially when humans
are involved.
And so I think the space tourismidea, uh, is, uh, something
that's gonna catch and, and get,uh, more and more attention and
grow more and more so and sofar.
(01:27):
So good.
Dr. Wes Sumner (01:27):
With your extensive experience as a rocket
scientist.
If you will tell us a bit aboutthe space-related projects of
which you are proudest over thecourse of your career.
Dr. Dwayne McCay (01:35):
Oh, proudest.
Well, I was always proud to getany of them completed, you know,
, I, you know, thinking back, um, about it, my, my first real
experience when I, I sort of gotthe nickname rocket man, when I
worked for Arnold ed Arnold AirForce Station was, uh, we had,
uh, a set of satellites thatwere, uh, supposed to last about
(01:58):
eight years and they were, uh,capable of, of functioning pro
for only about two.
And so people were trying tounderstand what was going wrong.
So, uh, a design helped designand build a, a, uh, small, uh,
uh, rocket propulsion system and, uh, for a, a very large, uh,
(02:19):
vacuum chamber that allowed usto see whether or not it was the
exhaust of the, uh, of therocket itself and where they
were located on the satellitethat was actually contaminating
the surfaces and thereforeleading to degradation of optics
and, and downstream, it, it, itcaused failure, the ability to
use the satellite and, uh, youknow, so that program was great
(02:43):
fun.
We had to put together, uh, uh,an entire propellant system.
We had to put together a, a feedsystem.
We had to, uh, uh, have a small,uh, rocket system, uh, that,
that had to be designed andbuilt for both using both Mona
propels and, and by propelling.
And, um, uh, it was a hugesuccess.
(03:03):
So, uh, we determined not onlythat, what the problem was, but
a solution to it.
And so, uh, those, uh, they haveother satellites, uh, very
similar that fly today and theyuse that, that technology.
So anytime you have a pro em,that you solve, uh, you feel
good about it.
Uh, you know, I got involved in,in big engines because we had
(03:27):
meltdowns due to, uh, uh, a, uh,design flaw in the space
shuttle, main engine, largenozzle, which consisted of 10,
1080 tubes welded together.
And, and, and, uh, when thatnozzle went through its startup
process, some of them werebreaking.
And when you break hydrogen andoxygen in the same environment,
(03:47):
we all remember what happenedwhen Challenger flew.
So, uh, we had to redesign thatnozzle, and I knew nothing about
big engines.
Uh, you know, my expertise was,is in, uh, in, in, in small
guys, one pounders and less, andone pound thrust and less rather
than, than the, the giant spaceshuttle main engine.
(04:09):
So it was a learning process.
It was a lot of fun.
Um, but I, I think of all thethings that I ever got involved
in was, uh, designing andbuilding the first, uh, uh,
actual laser propel rocket anddid that at Marshall Space
Flight Center.
And I was excited.
I didn't get to finish theproject because we had a problem
(04:29):
on the shuttle with the shuttleengines.
And, um, I got redirect.
That's what I found out about,even though I was a scientist
and did pretty well.
What I pleased at work, as longas I got my projects done, I
found out what it was like tohave a boss.
Lombardo, uh, thank you, sir,for the offer, but I have no
interest in working on shuttleengines.
(04:51):
And he said, oh, you don't seemto understand how this works.
Uhoh and I go, well, sir, I'mreally happy, uh, doing my, my,
my laser rocket work.
And he goes, and this is notabout your happiness.
This is about solving a problem.
And, uh, he said, you're now thenew, uh, DVS on this, on the, on
the main nozzle on the, on thelarge nozzle, I said would
(05:14):
certain, he says ourdiscussion's over somebody down
the hallway to, and, uh, stoppedin one of the offices, uh, in
the combustion group.
And I said, Hey guys, what?
What's a, what's a DVS.
And they said, you don't knowwhat that is.
I said, no.
I said, what's a designverification, specification
engineer.
(05:34):
Why'd you ask us?
I goes, cause I am one
So that was how I got into big,big engines.
Oh,
Dr. Wes Sumner (05:41):
Science and action engine in action.
Right?
Well, there's this big push intocommercial space.
As we talked about at the top ofthe show and space tourism is
taking off, please help usunderstand where does space
really begin and end.
And, and what does that mean tomake an astronaut?
Dr. Dwayne McCay (05:57):
Well, there it's, it's been an ongoing
argument or originally got, uh,settled on by, uh, uh, one of
the committees that, uh, youknow, would be defined as the VA
Carmen line.
Um, and basically it's about 75miles into space.
So, uh, you know, the very firstlaunch that we had with shepherd
, uh, he crossed that linesignificantly.
(06:19):
And, uh, uh, you know, and soastronaut wings were being
awarded to anyone that gotabove, cuz you can fly some, uh,
you know, you can fly to twopretty high, you can fly the Sr
71, pretty high.
You can, you can, there arethings that can get up there,
uh, other than rock and propelvehicles.
And so where you gonna draw theline, who's an AAU and who's an
(06:41):
astronaut.
And so, so they say, okay, ifyou've been above Theon Carmen
line and up until a commercialspace, we'd pretty well thought
that was the case.
Whether they called you anastronaut or a take no, or a
Cosman O they, they allconsidered that same.
And, um, and with some of thecommercial ventures that weren't
going quite that high, uh, thepurist was a, Hey, you know, you
(07:04):
didn't make it.
And, uh, I think, uh, Mr.
Bezos was criticized for that.
I do notice in the, in the, thelatest, uh, launch, uh, uh,
where, uh, uh, uh, captain H andthe others flew that they did
make it above that line.
And so, uh, they couldlegitimately earn, uh, uh,
(07:25):
astronaut wings if there aresuch a thing.
And, uh, so it, it was, uh, youknow, Kevin Kirk, uh, being an
old star Trek lover, and most ofus that ever saw it really were,
uh, he and Spock the others.
Um, uh, I'm glad that Shatner'swings have a little more
validity to them than, than sothat people won't criticize
(07:46):
that.
Dr. Wes Sumner (07:47):
Not at all honorary,
Dr. Dwayne McCay (07:48):
He made the line, he made the, he made the
line, I think.
Yes,
Dr. Wes Sumner (07:50):
Very good.
And, and with, as you say,captain Kirk, uh, William,
Shatner going into space not solong ago as a space tourist, how
safe is, is it really?
Dr. Dwayne McCay (08:00):
Well?
You know, I, I did some of theoriginal safety analysis on the
shuttle and, and we were prettyclose to accurate with regard to
how safe it was.
And, uh, you know, you doprobabilities and, and so, you
know, the, the odds were aboutat that time seemed to be about
one in 25 that would get it,have a significant, um, uh,
(08:22):
malfunction, not the majormalfunction we had, but, but at
least one that would, coulddrink the vehicle and perhaps
even lose a crew, et cetera.
And, and I would guess I havenot had I not been privy to the
information that the commercialcompanies are using or the data
they're going on, but, and, andof course, SpaceX lost some
(08:43):
vehicles early, uh, unmanned ofcourse.
So I would be surprised sincemany of the technologies are the
same.
Uh, the computer technologiesare much better, no doubt about
that.
Uh, but, uh, I'd be surprisedthat they're much safer than
they were then.
Um, uh, I wouldn't say they'renot as safe.
(09:05):
Uh, NASA might say that.
I don't know, but, uh, uh, Iwould be, uh, surprised that
that one in 25, isn't a numberfor them and we haven't had that
many yet.
So we'll see.
So we'll see.
And probabilities are the, youknow, people don't understand
prob every time you launch isstill one in 25, doesn't mean 25
launches later, something'sgonna happen.
(09:27):
It just means each time you stepin the vehicle, there's a one in
25 chance.
If that is an accurate number,that you will have a major
problem.
Dr. Wes Sumner (09:36):
Well, Dr.
McCay, unfortunately, we're outof time for this episode, please
stick around though, and we'llbring you back for part two.
Thank you.
That's all for this edition ofToday in STEM I'm Wes Sumner.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Today in STEM is brought to you by the Florida
Institute of Technology andWFIT.
More information available atwfit.org.
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