Breaking Stigma with Inclusive Marketing

Welcome to The Power Lounge. In this episode, we explore a significant shift in healthcare marketing with our guest, Melissa Forrest Shackleford. With over twenty years of experience, Melissa has developed inclusive marketing strategies for organizations such as Optum and the Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation. She joins host Amy Vaughn to discuss how inclusive marketing can challenge stigmas in healthcare.

Melissa details her journey and the impact of purpose-driven marketing in breaking down barriers and fostering meaningful consumer connections. The conversation covers the effectiveness of inclusive initiatives, the importance of language and accessibility, and provides practical strategies for obtaining executive support for inclusive marketing efforts. Additionally, Melissa highlights the tools and innovations that are driving change in the industry.

This episode offers valuable insights and actionable advice for marketers, healthcare professionals, and anyone committed to making a difference. For further reading, Melissa's book, "Harnessing Purpose: A Marketer's Guide to Inspiring Connection," provides more comprehensive knowledge. Join us in building a more inclusive future.

Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction
02:14 - "Evan North's Transformative Marketing Impact"
04:57 - Understanding Consumer Stigma Insights
08:18 - "Understanding Health Care Marketing Challenges"
11:04 - Fighting Stigma in Lung Cancer Screening
13:27 - Progress in Health Care Perception
17:26 - Authenticity in Testimonies
20:10 - Inclusive Marketing Awareness
23:50 - Person-First Language Explained
25:15 - Language Nuance and Impact
30:56 - Delivery Service Boosted Sales
33:29 - Reaching Diverse Audiences Economically
37:26 - Champion Accessible UX Today
41:44 - Purpose-Driven, Authentic Marketing
44:25 - "Values-Driven Consumer Purchases"
48:36 - Beyond Performative Inclusivity
51:14 - Inclusive Audience Targeting Importance
54:02 - Essential Inclusive Marketing Strategies
55:25 - Outro

Quotes:
"Inclusive marketing means truly seeing and understanding each person, unlocking its transformative power."- Amy Vaughan

"Shifting from stigma to understanding changes perceptions, saves lives, and forges genuine connections."- Melissa Forrest Shackleford

Key Takeaways:
Breaking Stigma Starts with Understanding
Authentic Representation Matters
Accessibility is Key to Inclusivity
Language as a Powerful Tool
Leveraging Technology for Personalization
Inclusivity Equals Growth

Connect with Melissa Forrest Shackleford:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mfors/

Check out Melissa's book: https://a.co/d/5HGTje6

Connect with the host Amy Vaughan:
LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/amypvaughan
Podcast: https://www.togetherindigital.com/podcast/

Learn more about Together Digital and consider joining the movement by visiting https://togetherindigital.com

Support the show

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello everyone and welcome to our weekly Power
Lounge.
This is your place to hearauthentic conversations from
those who have power to share.
My name is Amy Vaughn and I amthe owner and chief empowerment
officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who work indigital and choose to share
their knowledge, power andconnections.
You can join the movement attogetherindigitalcom and today I

(00:32):
am incredibly excited to have ahealthcare marketing powerhouse
, melissa Forrest Shackelford,joining us to discuss breaking
stigma with inclusive marketing.
Melissa brings over two decadesof experience driving growth
and visibility for renownedhealthcare organizations,
including Optimum Hazelden,betty Ford and Sigma Evan

(00:54):
Everworth Sorry, I moved my micthis week, I'm already like
running into stuff and SigmaEvanworth, evan North.
She has been recognized as theAmerican Association's 2019
Nonprofit Marketer of the Yearand named among the top 50 women
leaders in healthcare for hertransformative work.
As the principal of ShackelfordStrategies, she is dedicated to

(01:17):
helping brands createpurpose-driven marketing that
breaks barriers while buildingmeaningful connections,
something that we are veryattuned to and very excited
about here at Together Digital.
Her experience spansgo-to-market strategies, brand
development, digitaltransformation and data-driven
marketing initiatives.
She also brings a valuableperspective from her board
positions as Asbury Communitiesand advisory roles at multiple

(01:41):
health tech startups, withexperience that spans behavior,
health payer provider andhealthcare technology, including
international work andproficiency in Japanese Gosh.
Melissa, you just have allthese amazing skills and
abilities.
You bring a truly comprehensiveperspective to inclusive
marketing strategies.
She's also published a recentbook.
Check it out on Amazon we willdrop the link in the chat live

(02:04):
listeners.
Harnessing Purpose A Marketer'sGuide to Inspiring Connection.
I know our members will beexcited and our listeners will
be excited to check that out.
Melissa, thank you so much forjoining us today on the Power
Lounge.
We're thrilled to dive in.
This is a very importantconversation about creating more
inclusive marketing strategiesthat can absolutely make a
difference.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Thank you for having me, amy.
I'm just I'm so excited thatyou and your followers are
interested in this topic,because it's it's a little bit
sometimes not the sexiest partof working in digital, but I
believe that everybody has apart to play.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, yeah and yeah.
It might not be the sexy, but Iwould say it has to be some of
the most fulfilling.
I think some of the mostmemorable campaigns and work
I've done were things that hadpurpose and value, and I think a
lot of our members.
When they talk about purpose,you know it doesn't always have
to be work, but it is so greatwhen you can bring purpose into
the work.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Isn't that?
That's for me, that's when itall comes together, when you can
find purpose and value andmeaning in what you're doing
every day.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's a good reason to get upfor more than just that paycheck
.
So let's start with a littlebit about your personal journey,
before we go into some of youramazing strategies you have to
share.
I'd love to hear more aboutyour personal journey and what
led you to focus on inclusivemarketing and breaking stigma in
healthcare specifically.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
So I've been a corporate marketing and growth
person for many, many years, butabout the last 17, 18, I came
into healthcare and kind of allsides of healthcare, like you
mentioned.
But it was truly when I spentabout 10 years at Hazelden Betty
Ford, which is the nation'slargest substance use disorder

(03:41):
and mental health treatmentorganization, that I really dug
into stigma in healthcare, and Ireally did because there I led
marketing and as I was digginginto the data like we do, I
discovered our number onecompetitor was not another
organization, it was familiesthat knew they had a problem but

(04:03):
did nothing.
And so there's many, manyreasons for that Accessibility
and healthcare insurance.
There's lots of differentreasons, but one of the big
factors was stigma.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
So these are families .
They realize that they have aproblem with you, know
themselves or a family memberand they choose to not get care
because you know what would theneighbors think?
Or, oh my goodness, I can'ttake time off of work because
what if people at work found outand when you think about all
these other healthcareconditions, if someone has

(04:38):
breast cancer, they're notsaying, oh my God, what would
the neighbors think?
Oh, my gosh I can't take timeoff of work.
It's these stigmatizedconditions that people are
feeling that kind of that senseof shame and fear and stigma,
and that it's just, it'shorrifying.
And so for me, that's reallywhen I really started to dig in

(04:58):
to learn more about stigma andhealthcare and see what I and
what other people in my type ofrole could do about it, because
there's impact that we can have.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, and this is what I love about these
conversations is that, whilethey might be industry specific,
it does reach a broader groupin the sense that understanding
stigma when it comes topurchasing decisions is huge.
It's a massive unlock for anybusiness that you're running or
marketing for is really not justunderstanding, it is.
You're right.
We go straight to competitiveanalysis and begin to understand

(05:29):
what everybody else is doingwithout actually looking at the
person we're trying to help,which is the consumer, and say
what is holding them back, whatis the thing that is making them
not make the thing you know,make this happen, make this
purchase, make this, whatever itmight be, fill out the form,
complete the survey, whateverthat might be.
And so I think you know, withhealthcare, I can definitely see
how it's a struggle, but acrossthe board, in any industry, I

(05:54):
could definitely see how lookingat that stigma and identifying
that for your consumer actuallygives you an insight that maybe
you didn't have before.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Exactly.
There's so much in so many kindof facets of our lives.
There's stigma and shame andfear, but there's things we can
do to help break that down, andhealthcare is just one, actually
, that all of us can help makekind of progress in, because all
of us are healthcare consumers,all of us have loved ones who
need care too, so it's an areathat I think all of us can have

(06:23):
impact on, just in ourday-to-day life as well.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah and so on that note to dig into stigma more
obviously is like how would youI mean you defined stigma in the
sense of like, getting help andsupport?
Were there other instanceswithin marketing healthcare that
you came across stigma?
And then, outside of that, evenwhat are some of the more
common stigmas that you'veencountered that brands struggle

(06:45):
to address effectively?

Speaker 2 (06:47):
So I kind of, at a highest level in healthcare,
define stigma as really negativestereotypes, negative biases,
negative perceptions.
They're all kind of made upabout individuals with certain
healthcare conditions and itleads to discrimination, it
leads to unlawful treatment, itleads to a lot of
marginalization of differentcommunities and oftentimes in

(07:09):
health care it's things like Imentioned substance use disorder
, mental health, obesity, it'sHIV, it's diabetes I mean the
list goes on and on fordifferent conditions where
people have these kind ofsociety, has these negative
stereotypes about people, andthen people oftentimes
internalize that stigma and it'sthis cycle of shame and fear

(07:33):
and so people don't want peopleto find out that they have this
condition, they don't want toask for help.
Yeah, and their fear may bejustified because they may have
had situations where they weretreated with bias or prejudice
in the healthcare system and myexample I use a lot is you know
if your teenager needs braces nobig deal.

(07:54):
You're going to ask everyone.
You know which orthodontistthey used and about their
experience no big deal.
No big deal If your kid has asubstance use disorder or a
mental health problem.
You oftentimes are not going totalk to others because of that
fear and that shame, and soyou're probably not going to get

(08:15):
the care that you really need.
When I think about all thoseconditions, they're all
healthcare conditions andthere's healthcare available for
them and oftentimes it'slife-saving care that's
available.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
Yeah, no, it's such a big uphill battle, I'm sure,
for healthcare marketers and Iknow that our listeners, even as
patients themselves, arerelating to, as you're reading
off that list of all of thosethings they've sat in a
physician's office, they'veconsumed and seen the marketing
and advertising where they havethese gross, generalized,
overgeneralized statements madeabout them.

(08:47):
And it does.
It creates a different, adifferent mindset, going into
any kind of engagement or youknow anything like that with
another marketing or healthcarefirm.
So I think it's such a smartway to really look at it.
It's understanding yourconsumer and those deep seated
concerns and fears and thethings that they may not speak
about, so that you can maybe bethat voice for them.

(09:07):
So I'm kind of curious, youknow, in that real world impact
kind of scenario, if you had anyexamples of either campaigns or
initiatives that you worked onthat helped to kind of break
down those barriers.
Like now we talked aboutbarriers, we talked about stigma
, like how then do we actuallyput it out into the real world,
and then if you have any likeimpact that you could share is
measurable or not, like you knowwhat were some of the results

(09:30):
there and what were thecommunities that were being
served.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
So I've got two really great examples, and I
didn't create either of them,but my first one that I'd love
to share is around HIV, which isone of the most stigmatized
conditions.
There's so much societal sortof discrimination and negative
stereotypes that people havemade up, and in the last few

(09:55):
years you see all sorts ofadvertising from the
pharmaceutical companies whohave treatments for HIV.
They have advertisements allover TV during NFL games.
What I love is that they justthrew stigma out the door.
They said we are not only goingto not perpetuate negative
stereotypes, we're going tocreate positive stereotypes.

(10:16):
And in some of the ads it evensays that these are not actors.
These are actual people who arereceiving these treatments and
they're in the ads.
They're climbing mountains,they're they're paddleboarding
on the ocean, they're gettingmarried, they're doing all the
things.
They're living their best lives, and I feel like what they've
done is not only kind of smashthe stigma, but they're showing

(10:39):
people that this is.
These are people that areliving with HIV.
These are people living theirbest lives, living with HIV, and
it's creating a new version,and I just love it.
And then there's anotherexample that I also love because
it's leaning into the stigma Iused to be on the board of the
American Lung Association and soI was able to learn about a lot

(11:01):
of their campaigns and theycould do a campaign about
anything.
But years ago they started acampaign that was called Saved
by the Scan and it was targetingformer smokers because
smoking-related lung cancer isstill one of the most
stigmatized conditions Becausehonestly, even just by me saying
it's smoking-related lungcancer versus

(11:23):
non-smoking-related lung cancer,we think about those people
differently.
So people who are currentsmokers oftentimes their doctors
will say, oh, you need to getthese scans for early detection
for lung cancer.
But if you're a former smoker,because of so much shame and
stigma, a lot of times peoplewon't even talk about that with
their doctor.
So the former smokers weren'tgetting the early detection scan

(11:47):
.
So the American LungAssociation started this huge
campaign speaking to formersmokers saying you are also
eligible for early detectionscans, and they were saving
hundreds and hundreds of peopleby doing that.
But they could have doneanything.
And they said we're going tolean into an audience that
oftentimes is very stigmatized,very kind of lots of negative

(12:09):
stereotypes and shame, and theysaid we're going to do this
because we're going to savelives.
And you can still, if you're aformer smoker, go to
SavedByTheScanorg and you cansee if you're eligible.
It's really an amazing thingthat is transformative and
life-saving.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah, oh, that's amazing and that's so good to
know.
Yeah, those are two reallygreat examples and I know I have
seen some of those theadvertising on treatments for
AIDS and things like that andI've always been very, very
impressed with how like,intentional, inclusive,
thoughtful they are in theirmarketing like, and they aren't
shying away from theconversation or or holding back
on it and they're not paintingpeople in again that over

(12:42):
stigmatized light that they mayhave been in the past, which I
think is really really great,and, again, not being so subtle.
I think sometimes it's hard forpeople, but then it allows
people to see themselves in thespaces and talking to the people
that you need to be talking to,because when you again we talk
to everyone, you're talking tono one, right?

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Exactly, exactly, exactly, and you had said
multiple times.
It's about knowing yourconsumer.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yep, absolutely, and in both of those instances just
shows a great learning.
And then applying that learning, oh my gosh, half the time we
see something we're like this isso cool and then we do nothing
with it.
So yeah, I'm kind of curioustoo.
Obviously you've been workingin the industry for a while.
You've seen a bit of evolutionwithin the healthcare and
marketing and how it's beingdone, and worked with
organizations like Optimum andHazelden Betty Ford.

(13:27):
How have you seen healthcaremarketing evolve regarding the
inclusivity over the past decadeand what do you feel like still
needs to change?

Speaker 2 (13:36):
So I feel like we've made a lot of progress.
So we've made a lot of progressbecause I think in healthcare
we understand everyone is ahealthcare consumer and we've
made progress in certain things,like just changing the
narrative in the country.
I mean, oprah just did aprimetime special about obesity
and I feel like obesity is agreat example.

(13:57):
It was something that a lot ofpeople just considered not a
disease but like a moral failing, like these people don't have
willpower, and I think now, witha lot of these weight loss
medications that are out there,it's changing the narrative to
say this is a disease, right,there's medication available, so
you go to your doctor to getthis care, and so it's changing

(14:19):
that narrative and so I feellike we're having making
progress and things like that.
We still have a long way to goin certain conditions.
I would say substance usedisorder is one that we probably
have the furthest to go,because that is still considered
oh, there's kind of a moralfailing or it's.
It's something wrong with thesepeople, rather than saying it's

(14:39):
a disease, that there istreatment available.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
I imagine mental health probably falls into that
same camping category as well,and on that too, you've worked.
Obviously we've talked aboutBetty Ford Foundation.
What were some specific lessonsthat you've learned about
destigmatizing mental health andaddiction issues, as we both
mentioned just now.
That could be applied maybe inother healthcare areas.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
So I think one great example and something that we've
had a lot of progress in isaround anxiety and depression.
I think during the pandemic,all of us experienced some level
of anxiety and depression justfrom isolation and loneliness,
and I think it really changed alot of minds that this is normal
, it's okay and there is.
You know, there's medicationavailable, there's care

(15:23):
available, there's, you know,different treatments available.
And then we've had, I think,which is one of the best things
for a lot of these stigmatizedconditions, we've had some
world-class athletes come outand talk about their mental
health challenges.
When you have Michael Phelpslike the best swimmer in the
world you've got Simone Biles,the best gymnast in the world.
You have Naomi Osaka, who's oneof the best tennis players in

(15:45):
the world, out there talkingpublicly, being so vulnerable
but talking about their ownchallenges and saying that
they've gotten care.
It kind of opens the door forother people.
I think we still have a long wayto go with substance use
disorder, because it's still onethat people are kind of quiet
about.
But you mentioned the Betty FordCenter.

(16:07):
So back in the day when MrsFord, the former first lady,
when she got treatment for hersubstance use, she could have
kept it quiet but she made thedecision to be public about it
and that was really one of thefirst people talking about it
publicly and kind of opened thedoor for women in particular to
say, hey, this is a normal thing, she's the former first lady,

(16:30):
she just left the White Houseand she's getting care, so you
could too.
So for me, I think a lot of itis normalizing the conversation
and even though you know, simoneBiles and Michael Phelps are
people that are so unlike me inmany ways, but the fact that
they, if they can have this,then it's okay for just a

(16:51):
regular old person like me toget care too, and I just feel
like it's changing the narrativeand kind of opening the door
for conversation, just likeOprah has done around obesity
recently.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
No, it's a great tactic and strategy having
influencers, champions,advocates, whatever you want to
call them, ambassadors forwhatever that is Like I could
imagine looking at and findingand identifying those consumer
insights that lead you tounderstand, like, what are the
stigmas, what are holding themback?
Okay, well, who do I know isbenefiting from this already
having made the leap and trustedthe process that we can then

(17:24):
put in front of others tofacilitate that conversation?
Because, even though, likespeaking of psychology, like we
have those parasocialrelationships right, even though
I don't know Simone Biles, Iknow of her.
I've watched her grow up, I'vewatched her excel and so, in so
many ways, like I am personallyinvested in somewhere deep in my
psyche, all of us actuallybelieve that Simone Biles is
something of a friend and soit's like that best kind of

(17:46):
testimonial you could possiblyever get or give is when you
have a trusted person speakingon behalf versus you know, like
you even said earlier too, likeusing real people who you know
are inflicted with AIDS to comeon and be within the advertising
versus actors, which I thinkit's just, it's such a small
thing, but like and my exampleis, I worked on um, a PNG

(18:09):
ventures, um of um product thatwas for skincare conditions.
That was all about um eczemaand um like what was else eczema
and um like other skinconditions that would cause a
lot of flaking, and I tell youwhat, the things that the real
users would come on and theywould let us film and everything

(18:29):
.
It was so beautiful, uh, causeI've done a lot of advertising
in my life, but they're sittingin front of real people that
were really truly impacted bythe product.
And, like one woman said, likeI would, I was I was never
dating because it was so bad,like my scalp would be flaking,
so bad that I would be afraid tolike put my head on a guy's
shoulder while we were out on adate and it's just something
like that that you're like.

(18:50):
Now she can go out, she can beon her date and she can do
something as simple as put herhead on somebody's shoulder and
not be freaking out about what'sgoing to be left behind, like I
don't know that your everydayaverage Joe marketer, who
doesn't has never been afflictedwith something like this, would
ever have the insight orwherewithal to say much more to
hear it from the person.
It's just, you couldn't evendirect an actor to do it as well

(19:10):
as she did.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
It Just couldn't even have directed an actor to do it
as well as she did.
It was really cool to sit backand watch.
That's just a testament tobringing those into the process
that are from the differentcommunities, and it's just like
one of the things I do a lot ofwork around is accessibility and
bringing in people who areliving with different
disabilities into the process orwhether healthcare conditions
bringing them in so, you're notspeaking for them, they're

(19:35):
speaking for themselves.
That is such a great examplebecause no one else would have
thought of that, but also theimpact.
There's other people in oursame exact situation that are
thinking that way.
And it just in general it justif you go outside of healthcare
and individuals.
That's where testimonials areso powerful and that's where
even like online reviews are.

(19:55):
They're also powerful becausewe listen to others in our same
situation.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, I know, cause that consumer perception, it can
become the reality, right?
So you do talk aboutaccessibility in your book and
ways to integrate it.
Obviously, we just talked aboutyou mentioned like bringing it
into the actual process.
Are there any other practicalsteps that marketers could do or
take to ensure that theircontent and campaigns are truly
accessible?

Speaker 2 (20:19):
So I I always have thought I'm such a like an
inclusive marketer, and yearsago, when I was at a healthcare
organization, I had a companycome in and do an audit of all
of our marketing and one of thethings that they dinged us on
was imagery of people livingwith disabilities.
And I was just I was sopersonally like distraught by
that because I actually have agirlfriend who is a model who

(20:41):
uses a wheelchair, and I think,like I should have.
I know someone in my life whois actually a model in this
space.
So it was just teaching me that, okay, we need to really be
deliberate.
We need to show people of allwalks of life, all shapes and
sizes in our imagery, whetherit's healthcare or anything else
, because people want to seethemselves reflected by the

(21:06):
organizations they support.
But the one thing I andespecially because your audience
has so many people that areworking in digital I think
accessibility and communications.
These days, with the technologyavailable, we all need to lean
in to accessibility.
From that perspective,accessible websites I mean
closed captioning is so muchmore than like putting the

(21:28):
closed captions on your Netflixshow.
Yeah, and it's helping peoplewho have English as a second
language people who are hard ofhearing.
Yeah, there's so many differentreasons to close caption to do
alt tags so that people can usescreen readers, because everyone
.
It's amazing.
Yeah, People with vision lossare using the internet just like
anybody who doesn't have visionloss, and so that's where

(21:51):
leaning into accessibility fromcommunications isn't just for
healthcare.
It's hypercritical inhealthcare because everyone
needs to get that healthcareinformation.
But in any industry, makingsure we're really accessible in
our communications, particularlyin our websites, it's not
really that hard.
There's standards out there tofollow, but that's one where I

(22:12):
think especially people workingin digital everyone could be a
champion for that kind ofaccessibility.
There's an economic story to itas well.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
There is yeah, no, I was getting ready to say that
exactly Because, on the flipside, outside of that, you're
leaving people behind that arepotential consumers, buyers like
you are.
You're leaving money on thetable by not being accessible.
You know, I mean you even seeit like as simple as subtle
metrics, as like open rates andread through rates on our emails
.
You know, adding alt text toour images for our emails
actually optimizes ourperformance.

(22:43):
So it's like if you're notdoing it, you're just you're
losing out.
You're losing out onperformance, you're losing out
on reach and you're leavingmoney on the table.
So, yeah, it kind of seems likea no brainer, but you'd be
surprised at how many peoplejust resist it, cause I think
they think that maybe it takestoo much or it's too much work.
But I think that if you look atthe return on the investment,
it's a well worth the time andenergy.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
Well, and you look at just how far we've come with
technology, that it's really notthat much of a reach anymore.
And, like you said, there's aneconomic impact.
When you talk about inclusivemarketing, marketing to all
these audiences, you think aboutpeople with English as a second
language.
Well, massive audience.
Lgbtq community massiveaudience.
People living with disabilitiesmassive audience.

(23:30):
All these things it's not onlythe right thing to do, but there
is that economic story, becausethese people from all these
different communities want to beseen and heard in your
marketing and yourcommunications.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah, no, I agree.
Yeah, don't leave it behind.
All right, let's talk a littlebit about language and how
important the role of languageis in breaking stigma.
Could you give us some examplesof some language shifts that
maybe have made a significantdifference in healthcare
communication?
This is like one more dialright.
We can kind of turnaccessibility but also language.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
And it's, and it's something I think that a lot of
us can just use in ourday-to-day life when we think
about it.
There's a lot of people suggestthat we follow person-centered
language.
So I'm not saying he's analcoholic, he's an addict, he's
a schizophrenic.
I'm saying he is someone with,we say, a substance use disorder

(24:20):
is the preferred term for that.
Or they are someone withschizophrenia.
So you remove the person fromtheir condition because you
don't say he is cancer, you sayhe has cancer.
So it's just removing theperson from their condition
because they're more than theircondition.
But then it's also taking out alot of that judgmental language
like they are suffering fromthis illness and saying instead

(24:43):
instead saying they're livingwith so you know someone's you
don't want to kind of perpetuatethe victim, of perpetuate the
victim, yeah, exactly, Exactly,and so so it's just, it's
sometimes it's a subtle shift,but it's taking the that
judgment out of it, so you'renot kind of leading with shame.
Yep, I just think substance usedisorder is such a easy example

(25:06):
because it was always calledsubstance abuse.
Yeah, which, again, there's somuch judgment in that, where, if
you just take that abuse out ofit and you call it like a
medical term, substance usedisorder, which is the preferred
medical term, oh wow, well,then it also.
It just removes a lot of thatjudgment.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Right, right, and then it also begins to lean it
towards the language of like.
It is something, a disease, andI think it is so.
It is so subtle, and that isthe beauty of like.
The beauty of and the ugly sideof language is it is so easy to
just be flippant, but it's like, once you start to learn what
those nuanced things are, thosesubtle changes do make a big
difference, and so, like we'veeven said in another good one is

(25:45):
, you know, instead of.
Again, I've, I've learned like.
The rule is don't describe like, don't depend the verb like or
the other verb, the adverb, tothe person, right, you're not
describing them as somebody.
It's like this is a person witha disability, not, you know, a
disabled person, cause it's likeno, there's so much more than
that, so don't describe them asthat, and I thought that was a
really good rule of thumb aswell.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Exactly, and the one lately, I think, because it's
been such a hot topic is obesity.
So for so long people feltcomfortable saying he's obese.
Well, if we just shift it andsay he has obesity, he's living
with obesity.
It's very subtle, but it takesa lot of that negativity out of
it.
Especially around now, peopleare getting care for the disease

(26:29):
of obesity because there'smedications that are treating
you know, treating their disease.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, and again it does it.
Just like I said, I think it'sjust a good rule of thumb to
still describe people as likeyou do.
Like you said, he's not acancer, he wouldn't say he's
cancer.
It's such a good rule of thumbto kind of remember too, I think
, Cause we are obviously so muchmore than whatever we're living
with.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, and beyond that , it's also important, I think,
like if working directly withpeople, to ask them how they
would prefer to be, describedbecause you'd be surprised
oftentimes, and so that's whereyou know, like you said before,
your example of bringing in thewoman who didn't want to put her
head on the shoulder, askingthem, hearing from the different

(27:16):
audiences themselves, is super.
For me it's been super, super,enlightening and important.
And you might think, well, thisperson over here prefers this
term, but this person over hereprefers that, and so it's like
remembering that.
You know, communities are notmonoliths.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
Right, yeah, exactly what is that?
The platinum rule, or whateverthey call it to you Don't treat
others how you want to betreated.
Treat them how they want to betreated.
I love that idea, too, ofasking them what their
preferences are first.
All right, so oftentimes youknow we're marketers and
everything gets boiled down toKPIs.
Could you recommend what aresome ways in which we could look
at measuring effectiveness ofinclusive marketing strategies?

(27:50):
Again, as we're kind of tryingto advocate and rally for these
efforts and opportunities,oftentimes we're going to be
like, okay, well, how are wegoing to measure this?
How can organizations know ifthey are genuinely making
progress?

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Well, a lot of it.
I point to the conversation wehad a minute ago around it being
an economic impact.
And so, when I think about, Iworked with an organization that
was struggling with peoplereading the instructions and
finally they realized they wereovercomplicated.
They were in such medicaljargon people couldn't figure it
out.
And there's so many people thateither have low literacy, or

(28:27):
have English as a secondlanguage.
that oh wow.
Let's make some changes.
Let's do a lot of testing inthe process and there's we've
got amazing UX testing toolsthese days.
But let's do all that shift andthey saw their like the
response rate when they madethose shifts skyrocket and you
can't point it to one specificthing.

(28:47):
But all of this was under theumbrella of let's make it more
accessible and inclusive.
Let's use more imagery ratherthan medical jargon, let's use
lower grade level.
I think for that one we got itdown to like a fifth grade level
.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
And let's make sure the language we're using is
something that's easy to use forsomebody who has English as a
second language, right, andlet's make sure there's a QR
code.
So, because everybody's got asmartphone these days that they
can follow a QR code and have avideo pop up, for example, and
so when there's tests like thatthat you can do so, you can't
say, well, that was just becauseit's inclusive, marketing or

(29:27):
it's more accessible, but theysaw on that particular shift and
before and after, responserates skyrocketed.
So I think for me and myexperience is doing a lot of
that testing before and afterit's hard to say, well, we made
our website more accessible andbecause of that, this happened.
But what we can do is we canmonitor our KPIs before, we can

(29:51):
make our website more accessibleand follow the kind of
accessibility guidelines andthen we can watch it afterwards.
So it's really, I think, for me, for some of those types of
things, it's hard to say, well,it's because it was more
inclusive.
We're getting more people withlow vision or something, or
hearing loss.
Well, it doesn't necessarilymean that, but you're having an

(30:12):
impact.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, you could definitely see a lift.
I imagine, if it's like moreresponses, more time on site
again, like you're right,depending upon the project and
the initiative and what you'retrying to shift, looking at your
key performance indicatorsbefore and looking at them after
to see if you know, by makingthings more inclusive, does this
make things like more optimized?
Are people clicking throughmore?
Are they purchasing more?
All of those things can befollowed.

(30:35):
It actually kind of reminded meit's not exactly like
inclusivity or accessibility orinclusivity like kind of related
, but it does talk about thiswhole like we have to just get
out of our own way sometimes asmarketers and as brands.
And there was this one key studyI was listening to on a podcast
about how this furniturecompany was in Chicago selling

(30:58):
to young professionals gettingtheir first apartment mostly
customized sectionals, so verymuch in the right vein for their
audience and they had loads ofpeople coming into the store on
the floor.
And they had loads of peoplecoming into the store on the
floor looking at things, fillingout forms, talking about, you
know, putting together anddesigning their couch, cause
they liked the idea that it wasmodular and you could design the

(31:21):
outside, all this stuff, butthen nobody was buying.
They were spending all thistime in the store and nobody was
buying, and they couldn'tfigure out for the life of them
why.
Well, then they started talkingto their customers and asking
like well, what help kept youfrom buying today?
Um, you're in chicago.
Most of these buildings,especially young professionals
were.
They were I'm saying we,because I used to live in

(31:41):
chicago and was youngprofessional once upon a time,
many years ago and you know,we're living on third floor
walk-ups, fourth floor walk-ups,and you've got a whole ass
couch that you now have to getrid of and you have to figure
out how to get that other newcouch up the stairs.
All they did was start addingon delivery service to every
purchase and their sales sword.

(32:03):
So that's like a really good,simple example of like what you
were saying at the verybeginning, which is really
looking at understanding youraudience, asking them what are
the barriers for you.
And that's not always justabout the price, it's not always
just about the positioning andthe branding.
Sometimes it's as simple as afunctional issue.
If I don't have a way to, Idon't want to try to get a couch
down four flights of stairs andup four flights of stairs

(32:25):
Simple as that, but that's itgoes right to and speaking to
your customer and digging inwith them.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
I mean, honestly, everything starts with market
research and everything startswith talking to your customer,
no matter what industry you'reat, and but that that I mean
that's amazing that they didthat and that's such a but it
makes so much sense, but thefact that they never thought of
it ahead of time also makessense.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Yeah right, exactly, because it's like they're just
thinking about the initial sale.
They're not thinking abouteverything thereafter, which
could be another thing worthlooking into and digging into.
Like, what about your one-timebuyers?
Why are they buying once and ifyou're spent to be a recurring
purchase, why aren't they comingback?
There could be something you'remissing out on in your product
or service that keeps them fromcoming back again.
Let's talk a little bit aboutexecutive buy-in because, like I

(33:08):
kind of alluded to it earlierwith the last question about the
measuring success, formarketers who are trying to
champion more inclusiveapproaches within their
organizations, sometimes it canbe a little bit of a barrier
once it gets so high up.
What are some strategies thatyou have found effective for
getting executive buy-in andsupport on these initiatives?

Speaker 2 (33:27):
I think it's what you mentioned before.
It's the economic story.
So beyond everything else, it'sthe right thing to do and real
kind of values-drivenorganizations understand that,
but otherwise it's really.
There's an economic story and20% of the country is living
with a disability and they havetheir family members, and so

(33:47):
that's exponential.
So, you think about thataudience, when you think about
people who have English as asecond language or people who
are native Spanish speakers, allof that.
There's different audiences,that you can quantify those
people and you can say these arepeople we need to reach.
In one particular state,hazelden, betty Ford was one of

(34:12):
the few substance use disordertreatment providers that could
take care, take in patients thatwere using wheelchairs, and we
weren't using that to ouradvantage, because there's an
audience out there that needs it.
And so that's where we didactually testimonial, or like a

(34:32):
podcast, with a gentleman whowas in a wheelchair, and that
was part of the question why didyou choose this organization?
He was struggling with otherorganizations that couldn't take
him, and so, oh, again, we needto make sure we lean into this
because there's an economicstory.
It's the right thing to do aswell, but there's an economic

(34:53):
story because it's also, at thetime, it was a differentiator to
lean into that.
So then, obviously, we had thetestimonial of this gentleman
that we used all the timebecause that was important.
And you think about thesedifferent audiences offering
things in Spanish.
Well, goodness gracious, I mean, I could do the math pretty
easily to say how many morepeople are you going to reach
when you do things in Spanish?
Well, goodness gracious, I mean, I could do the math, you know

(35:14):
pretty easily to say how manymore people are you going to
reach when you do things inSpanish.
So there's that economic saleto the leadership that this is
not something that you're justmaking up, right?

Speaker 1 (35:26):
This is something that it's not just the warm
puppies.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
And beyond that, there's actual kind of
compliance for things likehaving an accessible website, in
particular in healthcare.
I mean people get sued all thetime for not having an
accessible website, because youneed to have things available to
everyone.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
So there's, that layer as well, that you know
when you want to do that kind ofthe carrot and the stick beyond
it all just being the rightthing to do and I could
definitely see how, doing theresearch and bringing the
numbers of those audiences thatare maybe not being served.
That's market share.
Oh my gosh, come on y'all.
Do you want this market share?
You don't want the dollars ofthose people that you know?

(36:05):
Go to a different website andsee, like you said, like I can't
even get into the building, sowhy would I go there, you know,
but if you actually talk aboutand share the accessibility of
your business or what you do,like you said, I think that's
another big point too.
We kind of just skimmed overbut differentiator, I think as
well, it really truly shows,especially from a healthcare
standpoint, that you care forthe whole person, no matter who

(36:28):
the person is, and that isthat's a big way to stand out.
So differentiating,understanding the target market
that they could be missing outon, and that is that's a big way
to stand out.
So differentiating,understanding the target market
that they could be missing outon, and then that market share
overall because, at the end ofthe day, you know they care a
lot about that.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly Exactly.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
Got to speak it in their terms, not just the warm
fuzzies.
Here we're actually servingmore people, which means more
money for you all at the end ofthe day.
So I don't know why it's even adiscussion, but it's even a
discussion, but yet it still is,as we all know.
All right, talk about a littlebit about digital innovation.
What are, how are digitalinnovations and new technologies
helping break down stigma andbarriers, and are there any
tools or platforms that you'reexcited about are currently

(37:03):
using?

Speaker 2 (37:04):
So I think some of the best things that's happened
in the last few years is the thereally what we talked about
accessibility on websites andfor so many different reasons.
Obviously, everybody wants tooptimize their website for
Google and all of that, butoptimizing it for every audience
is critical, and I feel likewe've come so far where

(37:27):
oftentimes people like versionone of your website is going to
come that it's meeting someaccessibility guidelines, and so
for me, that's been one of thebest things that to come that
it's meeting some accessibilityguidelines.
And so for me, that's been oneof the best things that we've
done.
And again, if I could sayanything to your audience, you
know, please become championsfor accessible websites, because
it's really not that hard.
The other thing is I kind ofmentioned a little bit before is

(37:47):
all of the amazing UX testingtools that we've got today.
I mean, years ago it was sotough and took so much money and
time and effort to really getyour voice of the customer.
These days, you can, at thedrop of a hat, get people to

(38:08):
look at your differentcommunications, your websites,
your apps, everything, and getthat instant feedback, and so I
think those are also justamazing and really
cost-effective way to do it.
I just remember back in the daywhere you had to get people in
a room.
You had to, you know, do allthese different things, and you
don't have to do any of thatthese days because we've come so

(38:29):
far, as far as on the UX frontas well as the accessibility
front, and that just makes memore and more excited for the
future.
The other angle, I think, andthat AI helps us a lot with, is
personalization and again, yearsago not well, not that many
years- ago it was really a hugelift to truly personalize a lot

(38:52):
of communications.
These days it's gotten so muchsimpler.
And in healthcare in particular.
When I think about healthcaremarketing, the more personalized
if it feels like this is justfor me, that's going to help me
to take action, and versus ifit's something that's mass
marketed and it's talking aboutsome condition I don't have or
it's talking about Medicare,which I'm not on, or things like

(39:15):
that, and so these days it'sjust like AI has helped us
leapfrog so far into the future,with everything we can do
around personalization.
Agree, yeah, and that's againnot just for healthcare, that's
for everybody.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
Everybody.
Well, and then automation, too,right, making all of that
easier and being moreintentional and thoughtful about
how you're optimizing and howyou're personalizing, because,
at the end of the day, it's allbuilding trust, right?
Yeah, you know that maybe don'thave a reason to trust

(39:51):
healthcare companies, you know,which is a lot of folks, and so,
like, how do you make sure thatthey, like you said, they feel
seen, heard, valued, and that'snot going to be by sending them
blanketed statements that areclearly not speaking to them or
that are not clearly for them?
It's breaking that trust ratherthan building it back up.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Well, and that's even with that speaks to kind of the
balance between AI andauthenticity.
Because, when you lean too hardinto AI and it doesn't feel
authentic, that doesn't help youbuild trust.
So there's a balance between oh,we get all this efficiency from
the AI or we really want to beauthentic in speaking to our
consumer?
If you think building trust isthe most important, then it

(40:31):
helps you to balance the twoVersus just saying we're going
to be efficient, we're justgoing to rock this out with AI.
That works in some situations.
I don't think it really workswhen you really need to build
trust and make sure you'rereally communicating in an
authentic manner.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yeah, you've got to keep that human in the loop for
sure, and I do feel like there'sbeen, and we're just going to
have to sit back and kind of eatthe popcorn and watch as, like
some companies do, they fallinto that trap of, you know,
overuse of automation and AI.
Somebody recently shared that Iwent to South by Southwest with
said that like her favoritequote from the whole week was
like AI won't replace marketers,it'll just reveal the bad ones.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
Yes, there's.
I've seen so many fails around,kind of AI fails, and it's
shocking sometimes theorganizations that they're
coming from or you're justsaying oh my gosh, like I'm
shocked that they let thisfilter through.
But it's a volume thing, it'san efficiency thing and they're
just not doing it.
But it's those fails and we'reall going to have them.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
They're teaching us all what to do differently,
we're going to learn, whetherit's from our mistakes or
somebody else's.
Hopefully it's somebody else's.
All right, let's talk a littlebit about meaningful connections
, because your book focuses oninspiring connections.
I wondered if you couldelaborate on the relationship
between inclusive marketing andbuilding deeper, more authentic
connections with the audience,which is just a great segue from

(41:52):
your last comment.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
Yeah, I really think that.
So purpose-driven marketing isreally about creating authentic,
meaningful connection, and it'smore than just selling products
.
It's really making that kind ofrelationship with your customer
standing for something bigger,being known for what your

(42:14):
organization values.
And when I think aboutauthentic marketing and I think
about or I think about inclusivemarketing, it's the same sort
of thing this is.
These are audiences that wantto be seen and heard.
And when you're saying I valueyou and you're speaking to them
in an authentic manner andyou're being really clear about

(42:34):
what your organization standsfor, what you value, it really
it creates more than like acustomer relationship.
It creates really brand loyalty, because when someone's seen
and feels heard by you, and theyunderstand that your values
align with theirs.
They're going to be a customerfor life, and that's really what

(42:56):
we all want.
I mean, you mentioned itearlier in our conversation.
You know we want to make surethat this is a lifetime customer
.
And how do you do that?
Because there's someorganizations I'm always going
to go to, there's somerestaurants I'm always going to
go to, and there's some that Iwill go to once or twice but
never go back.
So it's really how do I createthat real meaningful connection?

(43:18):
By standing by my values andkind of being having an
organization that is focused ondoing something more meaningful
than just selling products.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yeah Well, and at the end of the day, too, it reminds
me of we had a podcast guest onhere, nancy Harhut it's been
forever now, I feel like it'sprobably sometime last year
wrote the book on usingbehavioral marketing for, or
using behavioral science for,marketing.
It's a great read if youhaven't checked it out to you
and all of our listeners.
And she really talks about howevery purchase it doesn't matter

(43:52):
what it is, how big or howsmall there is an emotional
component to it.
We are emotional beings bynature, so everything we do has
some sort of emotion behind it,and emotion can either drive or
detract from any kind ofpurchase.
And again, like you just said,there you go to a restaurant and
you receive amazing service andyou feel so special and you

(44:14):
feel seen and taken care of.
It doesn't matter how crazy,elaborate, fancy or anything.
It doesn't matter about themeal, the thing you came and you
paid for and consumed.
The food itself might've beenso-so, but if the experience and
the way you were treated wasamazing, you'll likely come back
, and so I think no, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
I totally agree, totally agree with you on that.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
And then I will say too, again, just like looking at
the world today, like valuesalignment.
I'm so glad you brought that up.
Values alignment is huge rightnow, whether marketers want to
fully lean into it, acknowledgeit or see it for what it is or
not.
But people are making purchasedecisions not just in the
emotional moment of like, howthey are feeling personally.
It's like that, emotions oflike okay, I want to buy from
people that I know are doinggood things in the world, or I

(44:56):
want to buy from people who aredoing whatever you know.
You want to see and feel thatvalues alignment.
And I think consumers more thanever, especially this younger
generation.
When you look at our Gen Zmarket data, that's where
they're at.
So it's like if you're notspeaking about it, then you're
not speaking to anybody.
So you might be suffering fromthat lack of values expression
and values alignment as well.

(45:17):
So I'm so glad you brought thatup?

Speaker 2 (45:18):
Yeah, exactly, and it's not just the younger
generation, I think it'severyone.
When we think about it,everyone wants to make sure
there's values, alignment.
The younger generation is justreally talking about it, they
are.
And even frankly, in a B2Bworld, people think, well, it's
a B2B sale, no, no, no, it'sstill a human being making that
decision.
It's still relationships andstill making sure you have a

(45:39):
meaningful connection is what'sgoing to make them a loyal
customer for life.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
And that loyalty man pays foritself, if you can make it
happen.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
Exactly, exactly.
It does it does.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
So do what you can.
All right, let's get to acouple of our rapid fire
questions, or not so rapid firequestions.
We've got time, which is great,so I am curious what is a one
inclusive marketing practiceevery brand should implement
tomorrow?
I can't, I guess I might guesswhat it is, but you go ahead and
tell me what you think.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
Well, I'm going to say, especially for your
audience, it's an accessiblewebsite and accessible
communications.
It's really not hard, butthat's the one thing I'd really.
I ask everybody who's kind ofworking in digital, be a
champion for that.
It's not hard, it's so makessuch a difference and it really
should just be table stakes forall of us these days.
And we're not quite there, butwe're getting there, and so

(46:29):
that's the one I would just saylike champion that and it's for
so many different reasons.
Like, I think I love closedcaptioning and I'm not hard of
hearing, right, but I've alsolived in other countries where I
need to have the closedcaptioning to understand the
language.
And I understand how people whohave English as a second
language are using that.

(46:49):
So it's just, it's really abouthow do you cast the widest net
and make it available toeverybody.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
Big impact, and I mean most of the things that you
would do to make a siteaccessible.
It's kind of like a set it andforget it and then anything else
outside of that.
It's just a matter of workingit into the process and workflow
and it just kind of happens.
It's like you're saying it'slike it sucks to say it, but it
isn't hard, but the impact is sogreat and very beneficial.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
Name a brand that you think is setting the gold
standard for inclusive marketingright now.
So I might say two, but one Ijust think is it's just such an
obvious choice is Fenty FentyBeauty and Fenty Bolding line.
Because Fenty Beauty, so it'sRihanna's makeup line and she
has more colors available fromfoundation than anybody else, so
she doesn't actually have towrite it out and say, hey, we're

(47:40):
for everyone.
She's saying that through herpractice and then for her
clothing lines she has moresizes available than anybody.
So again she's saying, listen,we're for everyone, because
she's making that available.
It's just, it's making thestatement without making the
statement.
I love that.
The other one I just have tosay cause I love it so much and

(48:01):
I I just teared up when I'veseen some of their commercials
is and Microsoft is a massivecompany, but they've done some
really amazing work aroundaccessibility and they did a
commercial a while ago.
Um, that was for kids andxboxes, which every kid in
everywhere wants an xbox.
Yeah, they, they had accessiblecontrollers and it was so sweet

(48:26):
to see kids at play.
Yep, and we all want kids to beable to play yeah but these were
kids who were being excludedfrom playing with their friends
on the Xbox.
But then Microsoft made newadaptive controllers.
Love it and it just changed andit was just like I just tear up
thinking about what a sweetstories of kids being able to
play with their friends.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Right, and how much more likely.
Again, you're speaking to thosefolks that need the inclusion,
but then you're also clearlytouching on consumers that are
just aware of that and want tosee that, and I think that
that's like, again, it's thatit's that double-sided benefit
of inclusivity.
Outside of that bigger marketshare and reach that you're
getting, you're also affectingand impacting those who aren't

(49:05):
even in that space, that arejust like.
I see you and I know thatyou're doing this and that,
because of that reason, I amgoing to choose you and, I think
, the two.
The thing I love about both ofthose examples that you just
gave, too, is I think in thepast we've seen a lot of
performative inclusivity for thesake of okay, well, you know,
it's maybe the right thing to do, it's the warm fuzzies, but
it's not an action.
Both of those examples that youjust shared, they're not just

(49:29):
saying it, they're doing it Likeand in Rihanna's instance,
she's not even saying it, she'sjust doing it.
So I do think that's like thoseare great examples.
I love both of those things.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
I've been on the other end before where people
have said your marketing is soinclusive.
You have such diversity in yourmarketing but, in reality the
company is not, so I've been onthe other side.
So you have to be careful aboutthe performative, like just
making it look like something ishappening and not really doing
it.
You have to walk the walk andnot just talk the talk.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
Yes, you do these days.
People will find out.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
Yeah, exactly, they will share Blame me.
I've been on that side, I'vebeen on that side.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
That is no fun.
That is not a fun place to be.
That'd be such a good point.
Such a good point.
All right, I also meant to saylive listeners.
Um, I've just been so engagedin this conversation.
I know you're here, but I alsowant to remind you please drop
your questions in the chat, ifyou have them as well, because I
want to make sure that you allget to ask what you would like
to ask.

(50:26):
If there's anything specificyou wanted to ask Melissa, and
then I'm going to go ahead anddrop in the Amazon book link so
you can check out that, and thenI'm also going to drop in her
LinkedIn so that you all canconnect with her if you'd like
as well.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
I'd love to connect with people and I'd love to have
conversations around all thesetopics, like we're having today,
amy.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Yeah, no, me too.
This is like.
This is my jam, for sure.
And then I just pasted it in thewrong chat.
You know it's so Friday andI've been two weeks without a
podcast episode.
I forgot how to do it all.
There we go.
All right, awesome.
So those links are in the chat.
Live listeners.
We have a few minutes left.
If you want to jump in and askany questions, we'd love to hear
them, but in the meantime,we'll continue on with our power

(51:06):
round questions.
What is the biggestmisconception about inclusive
marketing that you'd like todebunk?

Speaker 2 (51:12):
So we've talked about it a lot and I really
appreciate that we've had thisconversation is that it's not
just a nice to have.
Inclusive marketing is also arevenue generator, and that's
the part where sometimes it'sshocking to me how organizations
push back where it's.
Why would you push back when I'mtrying to reach older adults?

(51:32):
Why would you push back whatI'm trying to reach older adults
?
Why would you push back whatI'm trying to reach Gen Z?
Why would you push back whenI'm trying to reach non-native
English speakers?
It's of course I should bereaching all these audiences and
it's these days, withtechnology, it's not that hard
to reach them.
But I need to prioritize them.
But it is really should beunder the category of revenue

(51:55):
rather than expense.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Yes, oh, I like it.
Preach.
That should be like a nice bigbillboard.
Inclusivity equals revenue.
I love it.
All right, If you could changeone thing about how healthcare
marketing is marketed healthcareis marketed globally what would
it be?

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Well, I think I've mentioned it earlier, but for me
it's remembering that everyoneis a healthcare consumer.
So you're a healthcare consumer, your family are healthcare
consumers, your neighbors are,you know your friend from high
school.
everyone is a healthcareconsumer, and when we look at it
with that lens, I think weapproach things differently,

(52:35):
because this is something foreveryone, and everyone deserves
to be able to get the care thatthey need and often life-saving
care and, like we talked about,sometimes when there's too much
stigma in society or fear andshame, people aren't getting
that care, or if people justdon't think that you're an
organization that will welcomethem then they're not going to

(52:58):
get that care and we have somuch available today that we
should make sure we keep thattop of mind.
Everyone is a healthcareconsumer.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Absolutely, which is one of the few instances where
you can say that right.
Sometimes you'll ask clientswho are your target markets?
Who are you talking to?
They're like, oh for everyone,You're just like flipping the
table.
But in this case and in thisinstance, absolutely, you are
talking to every individualbecause every person is going to
need it at some point.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
When I was working with substance use disorder.
Again, it doesn't discriminate.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
And so you could say it's anyone.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
So that's a difficult one when you think about how do
you reach that audience,because anyone could be touched
and in fact, with the number ofpeople who are touched by
substance use disorder, I meaneveryone knows someone.
If it's your sister, brother,cousin, neighbor down the street
, your friend from high school,everyone has someone.
And so when you think aboutthat, a lot of these healthcare

(53:53):
conditions don't discriminate.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
Yep, no, absolutely I agree.
All right, melissa, thank youso much.
That's all the questions wehave for you today, and it looks
like we've got a listeningaudience is just listening
intently.
So we're so happy that you cameto join us today to share these
incredible insights with ourPower Lounge audience.
Your strategies for breakingthrough stigma and inclusive
marketing are not just timelybut absolutely essential for

(54:15):
brands that want to create ameaningful impact in today's
world and for healthcaremarketers.
I mean, yo, you're technicallysaving lives.
It's so funny.
Oftentimes in advertising we'relike we're not saving lives
here, but you all doinginclusive marketing in these
ways, with these strategies thatyou've shared with us today
literally are helping save lives.
So, listeners, we're so excited.
If you get the chance to checkus out on YouTube, we've got a

(54:39):
YouTube channel.
We also have our podcaststreaming.
Anywhere and everywhere you canstream podcasts.
If you have found value intoday's conversation, I
encourage you to check outMelissa's book Harnessing
Purpose A Marketer's Guide toInspiring Connection.
We've dropped that link in thechat for our live listeners.
We'll include it in the shownotes as well.
You can get that on Amazon toread and if you're not yet a
member of together digital.
I invite you to join ourdiverse and collaborative

(55:00):
community of amazing women whoare helping each other in all
things digital and life, becausethey are amazing and they make
every day better, even whenthings are hard.
So that's all for this week,melissa.
Thank you again for joining us.
It was an absolute pleasure.
Love these kinds ofconversations.
Thank you for doing what you'redoing.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
Thank you, Amy.
This was amazing.
What a great conversation Mademy day.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
I'm so glad.
All right, everybody.
Until then, we'll see you nextFriday.
We'll be back again next Friday, yay, because we're back on our
normal schedule, so we'll seeyou then.
Until then, keep asking, keepgiving and keep growing.
Bye, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la
, la, la, la, la, la, la, la la.

(55:43):
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