Building Digital Trust

In this episode of The Power Lounge titled "Building Digital Trust," Amy Vaughan hosts Karen Douglas, a digital product leader from companies like Microsoft and Anthem. Together, they explore the role of trust in digital ventures and effective leadership strategies.

Discover how communication impacts team dynamics, the "Skill, Hill, or Will" framework for evaluations, and the importance of psychological safety in fostering innovation. Karen shares insights on rebuilding stakeholder trust from her experiences in distrustful environments.

Join Karen and Amy for practical advice, anecdotes, and the influence of trust-building in digital teams, setting the stage for organizational growth.

Connect with Karen:

Karen Douglas

Digital Product Executive - Microsoft

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karen-douglas-b68a444/

Episode Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction

05:18 - Trust Building for Efficiency and Reduced Turnover

11:55 - Navigating Workplace Culture Challenges

15:38 - Effective Communication and Task Prioritization

20:49 - Communication and Education: Trust in Marketing

30:52 - Assessing Needs, Skills, Challenges, and Motivation

34:17 - Transparency and Strong Relationships: Trust Building

40:56 - Impactful Small Moment: Support and Friendship

43:13 - Promoting Small Wins for Team Boost

48:14 - Lack of Affirmations: Sudden Interest and Confusion

54:17 - Evaluating User Needs Before AI Adoption

01:03:36 - Outro

Quote of the Episode:

"AI implementation should focus on solving real user problems, not just hype" – Karen Douglas

"Stop moving the goalposts. Deadlines can't keep shifting, scopes can't keep expanding and it truly impacts trust."– Karen Douglas

Support the show

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello everyone, welcome to our weekly Power
Lounge.
This is your place to hearauthentic conversations from
those who have power to share.
My name is Amy Vaughn and I amthe owner and chief empowerment
officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who work indigital and choose to share
their knowledge, power andconnections.
You can join the movement attogetherindigitalcom, and today

(00:32):
we are going to deep dive intosomething that actually affects
every digital initiative butreally gets the spotlight and is
much deserved, and that istrust.
We are joined today by KarenDouglas, who is an extraordinary
digital product leader who hastransformed teams at Microsoft
Cardinal Health Anthem.

(00:52):
You mentioned some others.
What were some others youmentioned earlier?
To me, karen, I want to giveyou the credit.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, sure, Thank you .
Dsw Beauty Counter andcertainly agencies in the past
as well.
Love it so.
A wealth of knowledge andexperience.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
she's the past as well, Love it so a wealth of
knowledge and experience she'sbringing to us today.
So we're super grateful thatshe's here and willing to share
with us how she has helped tobuild authentic trust that can
either make or break ortransform your digital
transformation efforts.
So get ready for someactionable insights that you all
can implement immediately.

(01:23):
Live listening audience.
As always, we love that you'rehere with us today.
Please join the conversation.
Add comments to the chat, addquestions to the chat if you
have them, and we'll be sure tocome back to them once we're
through with the interview.
But, karen, thank you so muchfor joining us today.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, thanks so much, amy.
It's so great to be here.
I really appreciate this timeand this opportunity to talk
about this topic.
It's something that you know.
If you'd have asked me 20 yearsago, you know earlier on my
career what I would be talkingabout at this point.
I don't know that I would havesaid trust, but I do think it is

(02:01):
something that, while it seemsseems simple, is harder to
implement and it's harder toactually create in that team
environment than you think.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
And time needs to be spent on it, in doing not in
just, you know, like you saidagencies, but bigger companies
like tech giants, essentially,and traditional companies, which
were digital transformationproduct.
You know roles andresponsibilities that are
literally evolving as we speak.
There's a lot of challenges toovercome there.
What would you say, though?
Bringing it back to trust.

(02:41):
What is the biggestmisconception about trust in
digital initiatives, or evendigital product?

Speaker 2 (02:49):
It's a great question , I think, like we said, you
know it seems such as like asimple topic, but I think the
biggest misconception abouttrust is that it's assumed and a
given.
With the team, you know, at thebeginning of initiative or, you

(03:10):
know, maybe even starting a newjob, we assume that everybody
is on the same page andautomatically trust their
leaders or trust their partners.
And the truth is that's justnot always the case.
In some cases it is, and that'swonderful if we've created
those environments, but it's notgiven.
It needs to be earned andmaintained and I truly believe

(03:31):
that's the responsibility of allthe leaders.
Right, it's about top down,creating an atmosphere of trust
and building those relationshipswith the team members.
It's not fully, if it's notfully ingrained in the culture,
the team or the company is goingto have some struggles for sure

(03:51):
.
And the thing is is like Imentioned, it also has to be
maintained.
You know it can be lost soquickly without transparency and
openness and I think that'ssomething that that,
unfortunately, in my experiencein all types of companies or
initiatives, you know it's.

(04:12):
I just don't think that theeffort is spent there.
It's more about the work andnot about the trust of the team.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
And I would imagine that it would be interesting if
you could put like numbers tothat right.
Maybe that would help open somepeople's eyes to the loss of
like cost and productivity whenyou don't have trust.
I mean, think about this.
It doesn't even matter ifyou've been involved in a
digital transformation projector launching a product.
You still know.
I think everybody that'slistening right now is probably
feeling exactly what you'resaying, karen, which is that,

(04:41):
like it's not, it has to be anongoing effort.
You can never assume it.
It's not a one and done.
You have to maintain it.
But really, how many of us havesat on the other side of
initiatives period, right, thecoming down from the top without
, like you said, thattransparency, that understanding
, that alignment of goals andobjectives from the greater

(05:04):
community that's meant toactually do the work?
And then what are you going todo?
You're going to go back to yourdesk and you're going to have a
big old pitch session, right,about what in the heck was that
Like?
Why?
Why are we doing this?
What actually needs to be done?
So I just wonder if you couldit'd be hard to quantify, but
I'm sure that there's hours andmoney right Lost when you don't
establish and maintain trustfrom the start.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, it would be fascinating if we could run some
sort of study that wouldmeasure that.
But it's like, how many hoursare the bitch sessions back at
the desk or the angry IM chats?
How many hours do we spenddoing that, sending the
mind-blowing gifts and thedumpster fires like we've all

(05:49):
done it right, like you know,all set up dumpster fire, you
know, like emojis and gifts andthings like that, when we are
not, but we don't trust what'sbeing told to us or or the
direction that a company isgoing.
You know it's more than weprobably think.
You know it's a great point.

(06:09):
It would probably be mindblowing how much time is spent,
which you know.
That's the point, right.
If we focus at least even apercentage of that time on
building that trust andrelationships with our leaders
and our team members, ourcross-functional partners, our
direct reports you know anyonereally, it would just you know

(06:33):
that the work would be morevaluable and that work would
move forward more rapidly andwith happier, more content
employees, right, which alsothen reduces turnover.
It's the cycle, right?

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Right, because then the training and getting them
onboarded and back up to speed,yeah, that all that time, all
that money getting lost, whatmight be you've definitely
mentioned like transparency.
Do you have any other likestrategies, tactics or good
takeaways for our listeners to,kind of, when you're launching
an initiative, what are someways in which you can begin to
kind of open up the door andallow for opportunity to build

(07:07):
and gain trust?

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, I think you know.
Transparency, I think, isprobably the key.
I think you know, from aleadership perspective, being
open and honest even whenmistakes happen is pretty
critical.
I love that.
Coming with humility, comingwith honesty, providing updates.
Don't leave your team in thedark.
They're just sitting therewondering what the next step is.

(07:32):
Especially in the past fewyears where technology has been
in, the market has been volatile.
Everyone's sitting therewondering whether or not they're
going to have a job tomorrow.
Be, open with them, Tell themwhat's going on, tell them about
the initiative and why we needto move forward with it.
Give them a reason to believein what's happening.

(07:55):
Open the conversation up, askthe tough questions and expect
to answer them.
And I think and I think that'sand that's sort of on everyone
really is we need to be openenough to not be afraid and
avoid the difficult questionsthat may come from our team or

(08:16):
our cross-functional partners orour direct reports or even our
leaders.
Right, Don't avoid it.
Yeah, your team knows whenyou're doing it Right?

Speaker 1 (08:25):
I mean, yeah, we sometimes think we're getting
away with something, but if youcould see the DMs.
You would know otherwise.
I love this because I do think,and I agree it's in this kind of
market, especially within ourindustry, creating and
establishing psychologicalsafety for the sake of being
able to let people be creativeand as innovative and as
productive as you want them tobe is really hard.

(08:45):
So I think right now, leadersshould be leaning in even harder
this time to kind of establishand make that.
One thing I learned fromsomebody and I think it might've
been one of our past podcastepisodes, where somebody had
offered up the advice of don'tgive everything to your team as
a done deal.
Don't say here's the project,here are the goals, here's the

(09:10):
objectives, here are thetimelines, and then just say
this is what it is Like.
Actually give them stuff.
That, because sometimes I feellike by doing that I'm setting
them up for success, I'm helpingthem.
All the details have beenthought of.
But depending on the type ofperson that you're working with
and the majority of peopleespecially, they're going to
look at it and say I had nocontribution to this, I had no
skin in the game here, I wasn'tconsulted on any of this, and so
they were like bring thingsthat are actually unfinished and

(09:30):
give them opportunities toengage, to contribute, because
then then buy-in's real, becauseit's like they've contributed,
they've put something towards it, so they're more likely to
follow through than ifeverything's just a done deal
every time it comes to them.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
Absolutely.
You know, I think, as a leaderin digital product space, yes,
I've led teams, I've led largeinitiatives.
I've done a lot of things.
However, I know, and I havealways told the people that are
working with me for me you know,cross functionally I know I'm
not the smartest person in theroom all the time the best ideas

(10:06):
come from the collective voiceof the team.
So, to what you're saying, Amy,don't come in with a fully
baked plan.
Leverage the experts that youhave around you and that way
you've got the buy-in, thecollective buy-in, from the
group, and everyone understandsthat we're all in this together
and this was our idea.
This was our initiative.

(10:27):
This was our plan, right.
And then the flip side to thatis then give credit where
credit's due.
Yes, a hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
If it's your idea, amy.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
I'm going to make sure everybody knows that it was
Amy's idea.
And I think that is soincredibly important and that is
a huge thing that I thinksometimes is missing to help
develop the trust of the team?

Speaker 1 (10:53):
Oh, absolutely, because when somebody is up
there and they're speaking tothe work that you did and they
don't give credit, it just feelslike they are taking credit
because they are the onespresenting which.
I've heard, seen and felt thatan awful lot, and it just
occurred to me too as you weretalking.
It's just like it's so easy,right, to let our own concern
for our self-image andperfectionism get in the way of
our ability to be good leaders.

(11:13):
And if you can kind of start tolet those things go, you're
modeling something really goodfor your team, whether you
believe it or not, and then Ithink a lot of it does help lead
to trust.
And then it's, I think it takesthe pressure off you as a
leader to show up perfect and,you know, invaluable every time,
because you're just not.
That.
That's a lot of work and efforton top of your job leading, so
let it go.
You know, I'm not saying likedon't try, but it's like stop

(11:37):
trying to be perfect every time.
It's not.
It's not the right image youwant to put out there to the
people that you want to gain andmaintain their trust.
No, you're 100% right.
I completely agree with that.
Well, let's get into somestorytelling, which we always
love here in the Power.
Lounge.
I was hoping you could maybeshare a story or a time when the
lack of trust kind of deraileda project, and if and how you

(12:01):
were able to turn that around.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, unfortunately there's probably multiple
examples I could come up with,as I'm sure anyone who's
listening probably is thinkingof the examples right now.
One thing that I think I'lltalk about an example of when I
first started at a company, aculture of well, and actually I
think you know how.
You don't always know whatyou're walking into, whether it

(12:26):
be with a new team or a newinitiative or a new company.
You have no.
You can ask the culturequestions all you want in an
interview or something like that, but until you're there, you
don't really know what cultureyou're stepping into, and that
can be really difficult.
So, you know, my, my advice isdon't come in guns blazing and
think you've got a, you've gotthe, you've got the answer for
everything.

(12:47):
However, the example I want totalk through is you know, I
walked into an environment, um,where a culture of distrust was
really already in place with thedigital product team, which I
then was leading um, the techteam and engineering team, you
know, with this particularstakeholder group.

(13:09):
I had to kind of dive into thatand what I really found out was
they just felt like whateverthey wanted to get done,
technically launched, just wasnot a priority and that no one
cared and it was never going tohappen, just was not a priority,
and that no one cared and itwas never going to happen.
And so you know, I needed todig into that because of course,

(13:34):
I'm on the engineering teamextended engineering team so I
can't, you know, like reallybash the team that I just joined
more time with them and reallydig into their business, their
expectations, their customerbase, their user base and what
their leadership expectationswere on them.

(13:55):
Because the truth is is all ofthese different stakeholder
groups have accountabilities andresponsibilities to their
leaders and they might becompletely in conflict with what
I think they should be or myteam thinks they should be, and
so that's kind of what I foundout.
So what I did and my team did iswe started to really focus and

(14:19):
spend time with them.
We did a couple of things.
We first started with beefingup our communication right
Recurring meetings, trying toget to know them, understanding
them, asking them questions,asking them for information, and
then also making sure that whenwe're communicating, we're
giving them the full view of thework that was happening in

(14:40):
engineering Right, so that theythey could get the fact that it
wasn't, that there was nothinghappening right, no one's
sitting on their hands doingnothing.
We needed to educate them aboutwhat was happening so that they
could start to see what wasreally happening.
As far as education, not onlywere we educating them on what
was really happening, but I alsorecognized that we needed to

(15:03):
educate them on really theprocess of digital development.
Yes, and it's interesting, wewere talking before we jumped on
this podcast In the digitalproduct space, it's no matter
where I've worked and I'veworked at some giants and ones
that you wouldn't expect to bethis way but they still don't

(15:25):
totally understand what digitalproduct is, after being one of
the first ones to have thattitle years ago to now.
It's the same, whether you gointo a small company or a large
company or a consultingopportunity, there's still an
education that needs to happenabout the role of digital
product and what the developmentprocess really is like.

(15:47):
So we spent a lot of timeexplaining that, helping them
understand what we were there todo and that we were there to
help them.
And really, you know simplethings how long does something
take to build?
What does our infrastructurelook like?
Are we able to even do thething you're asking for right
now, or do 10 things have tohappen before it, Right.

(16:08):
And that helped them understandthat it wasn't that they were
being ignored, it's just itcouldn't happen right now, for
whatever reason.
Right.
And then the third thing we did,so it was like we communicated
and we educated and then wehelped with prioritization,
which is the job of digitalproduct right, it's to help
prioritize and help thosestakeholders prioritize what is

(16:30):
the most important and why?
Right.
What is the data that we have?
What is our user base tellingus we need to do right now?
What is going to move theneedle?
Are there some small quick winsthat we can get out the door?
And how does all that play witheverything else that's on the
plate of the engineering team?
Right.
And so I would have to ask thempoint blank what's your number

(16:52):
one?
And well, we want to do thisnow.
Well, which things push down?
And we'd have to have thosereally hard conversations.
You cannot have 10 number ones,right.
And so, over time, and to behonest, number ones, right.
And so, over time, and to behonest, you know, this isn't
rocket science, this is juststuff that has to be done to
develop the relationship,develop the trust and to help

(17:14):
people understand where you'recoming from and you know, with
that process which, by the way,was not overnight, it was months
.
This isn't something that is inan hour conversation you can
take care of.
It is months of consistency andwhen they can count on you and
they know how to reach you andthey can ask you questions we

(17:36):
were able to start to behyper-focused on what the
biggest bang for our buck waswhen it came to helping them
move their needle, and I thenwas able to advocate on their
behalf with the rest of theengineering team to say, hey,
hold on, this is going to driveX amount of dollars, this is
going to drive X amount ofimpressions, this is going to

(17:58):
drive X amount of revenue.
And by helping build thoserelationships, we were able to
get some things out the door andthey were thrilled.
It had been a year since one oftheir initiatives had actually
hit the market Right and we wereable to do it.
It took about four months, Iwould say, but that was huge for

(18:18):
them.
And then it's success.
And then I built their trustand then they started seeing how
we were going to chip away attheir goals.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
I love it.
Yeah, I can see howprioritization could definitely
be the thing that helps move thebusiness and the needle forward
, because if you've got peoplescurrying in all directions and
everything's that priority,nothing becomes the priority.
And then everybody gets blamedfor the lack of results, but
it's like if you do slow yourroll and you allow for the
education and all of that, thenwhat opens up is the chance for

(18:46):
you to look really good.
You know, on the other side ofit, because you're listening to
your people and you'reunderstanding their advice,
because I think on you know,it's always a good indicator
when you get that sense of andif you're like working on your
EQ as a leader, you know itdoesn't take a whole lot to know
it, to see it, to feel it.
But on the other side of that,fear, frustration or hesitation
when it comes to your team, theopposite, the other side of that

(19:09):
is understanding, and so Ithink that's where you're right,
like education, and I think allof the marketers listening to
this call, they know they livethis right every day.
You know you have to constantlyeducate.
Yes, okay, I know you want ayou know 10 page social media
strategy with key performanceindicators and an ideal customer

(19:31):
profile, audience and paidmedia strategy by tomorrow.
However, I need to be able todo these things.
I need to pull this researchand be able to kind of pull all
that together.
So you know it's.
It's kind of sometimes, I think, it seems daunting to have to
educate, but I'm like, if youdon't speak up and advocate for
yourself, who will?
And then all of a sudden, theidea becomes that all of these
things are done quickly andwithout much effort, and then

(19:53):
the assumption gets made thatthat can always be the case, and
then you have burnout andpeople leaving and again we're
just falling into the samepitfalls over and over and over
again.
I do want to jump ahead to oneof our questions because I think
it ties nicely to your answerfor the last, and it's
stakeholders.
Right, we've talked a lot aboutteam alignment, but then we've
got the stakeholders to considerand building their trust as

(20:16):
well.
I think some of the things youwere talking about.
So I just wanted to reemphasizesome of those points and see if
you had other points you wantedto add on.
How do you maintaintransparency while managing the
expectations during complexdigital transformations with
those stakeholders?
So not just your team, but thepeople that are sitting above
you going.
We want our numbers, we wantour results.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah, I think it's.
It's exactly what we were justtalking about.
It is, you know, regularupfront updates, being upfront,
being transparent, being open.
You know, as they say, bad newsdoes not get better with age.
So you have to bring thechallenges up and out as soon as

(20:56):
possible.
Don't be afraid to do it.
You know it is, it is part ofthe job, right?
And I think even that, even evenbringing up the bad things or
the things that are going to bebehind, or that we're, we're, we
might miss a deadline, it'sstill about trust, right,
because then you can come atthem and just tell them the
truth and here's the plan thatwe've got going on, or hey, I

(21:19):
need your help to help solvethis problem.
Like, that is totally fine.
It's when you keep it toyourself, that's when you lose
the trust.
So I think, other than that, Ithink, just to reiterate it, I
think, as a digital productprofessional and probably this
applies to your point to allmarketers, unfortunately, we
will always be educating, like,whether you like it or not,

(21:41):
that's just kind of how it is,and so I think, having you know,
be prepared for that, if youhave the materials that you,
that you want to use to helpeducate.
If you have, you know, a onepager or something that you want
to share.
If you have, or in every companyis a little bit different,
right?
So the processes while we allthink we're agile, we're all at

(22:04):
different parts of that journeyand I think it's important to
educate how the processes thatyour organization work, yeah,
and also be open to feedbackwhen those processes can be
improved, and also be open tofeedback when those processes
can be improved or thatcommunication can be improved.

(22:25):
So, yeah, it's asking the hardquestions of the stakeholders
and not being afraid if theyprovide you a critique.
Take that as an opportunity tojust make it better and look for
what they need.
And it's not always a one sizefits all.
Sometimes you have to evolve toyour C-suite or to your direct

(22:50):
reports or to yourcross-functional team to find
the meeting cadence and theconversation cadence or timeline
or all of that that works bestfor the team.
Just be flexible.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, yeah, I think those routine type of team
check-ins, one-on-ones, all thatstuff is so, so critical and I
think sometimes in the busynessof the day-to-day we tend to
deprioritize that.
But I think that's a reallyeasy door to kind of, you know,
leave open and then start havingtrust, walk right out with it.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
And I love what you said at the beginning.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
There too, I think there's a mindset shift for some
of us that, yeah, it is yourjob as the subject matter expert
, as the product expert, topoint out the obstacles, the
barriers, the potentialnon-desirable outcomes, the
issues.
That is part of you doing yourjob.
I think sometimes we think wehave to be all sunshine and
rainbows and happy news andeverything's going perfect and

(23:41):
not to say you need to like be anegative Nelly and point out
every possible issue.
But it's like you know, thinkahead and be proactive where you
can and then, when kind ofstuff hits the fan, like, be
that person who's brave enoughto step up before, like you said
, don't let it get bad news.
Doesn't get old, doesn't agewell, so don't let it just sit
there, cause then you're goingto come to them and be like why

(24:01):
didn't you tell us this sooner?
You know that's the worst.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yeah, on the flip side to that and this goes back
to leadership it has theresponsibility of building trust
.
You know there has to be um anopen enough relationship.
Yes, that's a great point,because I do know and I have
worked in environments like thisin the past, where you were,
you know you're afraid to givethe bad news right.

(24:27):
Oh yeah, you know you have aleader who might not accept that
and the truth is that's aproblem.
That is a cultural issue thatneeds to be addressed at that
company or in that team.
Potentially, because you knowyou, you do need to be able to
feel comfortable to go share thebad news.
In most cases, most leadersI've worked with are have always

(24:50):
said bring it to me right away.
But there have been a few in myexperience, or even just an
observation of others, that youknow there's a fear in giving
the bad news.
Yeah, and, to be honest, if yourun into that, call them out.

(25:11):
You need to call out yourleaders on that and ask for
support from other team members,because that's not fair.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah, well, because yeah.
And then my thought was, as youwere describing, that again all
very familiar sounding it's forme it's.
At one point I just I kind ofjust came to the understanding
that that was more of a themproblem than a me problem.
Like if I can't come to youwith honest feedback about
something critical to thebusiness and the business
success, because if my only goaland objective is for us to
succeed as a business and I'mbringing value and equity to the

(25:42):
company, we're probably gettingpaid peanuts compared to you
know what that equity is then Ijust it maybe might, it might
not be the right kind of fit orculture for me.
I always did do well withleaders that you know had that
kind of open door, open mindpolicy to you know, had that
kind of open door, open mindpolicy to you know cause it
wasn't like I was going to everbring something just to bring
something.
No, it was always because Iknew it was a tried and true

(26:06):
issue that needed to beaddressed or, you know, have a
conversation about.
So I agree with you, there isdefinitely a lot of that fear
just based on certain leadershipstyles.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
I think you know cause it's like but then the
majority are not that way.
But you know, just to say, likeyou know it is, it is hard to
give bad news sometimes, but thetruth is is if, if you've, if
you've worked on thoserelationships, you know it
should be easy right, You'relike help, I mean hard to say it
, but right to do it, exactlybecause you built that

(26:37):
relationship.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
Definitely let's talk about cross-functional teams as
a really important aspect ofbuilding trust and relationships
.
It's really critical.
I'm kind of curious, karen howare you seeing this and how are
you approaching this now that weare in this world of remote and
hybrid?

Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, it's a great question, you know, in this
world of remote and hybrid, yeah, it's a great question.
You know, I I've had theopportunity to work remotely for
almost eight years now, sobefore it was popular, and so
this took me some time tounderstand, really, because I
was definitely the person wholoved to chat, you know, and
build relationships in person.
I like people telling me I havecute shoes and a bunch of

(27:18):
things like that, you know, andyou don't get that right when
you're remotely and things likethat.
So I think the obvious answeris we have all these digital
tools like the super obviouspart is use your IM, use your
email, use your Zoom calls, doall of that right.
That's the obvious answer.
But where I see otheropportunities is really around

(27:42):
spending time with yourcross-functional teams.
We cannot underestimate thepower of getting to know each
other personally period, fullstop.
It is so incredibly powerful.
Full stop.
It is so incredibly powerful.
We, when effort is spent onactually building relationships,

(28:04):
we break down the work wallsRight and start to work together
as human beings instead ofcoworkers, and that is hugely
valuable in remote and hybridenvironment.
You know, this can look like allkinds of things.
It could be one on ones, itcould be whatever, it could be
literally just stopping theconversation altogether because

(28:25):
someone mentioned something andforgetting about work for your
scheduled Zoom call.
Imagine that, right, we'realways so focused and we go from
next call to next call to nextcall and, yes, we have work to
do and, yes, we're all timecrunched and, yes, it's all
important, but it's not moreimportant than asking someone

(28:46):
about their weekend orunderstanding what's happening
in their family life, or findingsomething that you have in
common with them, that you arethen sharing things that you
found online that they mightenjoy and getting to know them
personally.
So, in my mind, it's always,always, always should be people
first, building relationships,and the trust and the work will

(29:08):
follow.

Speaker 1 (29:10):
I love that.
Yeah, I like that Treatingpeople as human beings, not
human doings.
Yeah, and I even catch myself.
I mean I really try hard to beintentional about, like when I
start a meeting.
I want the first five minutesto just kind of be.
I really want to know how we'redoing right, you know we try so
hard to be like okay, it's not a30 minute, it's a, it's a 25

(29:31):
minute, it's like, no, just makeit 30 and spend five minutes
checking in with each other.
And then even it sounds crazy,but it's even the little things,
because I am very much like,okay, move on things and quick,
quick, quick, task, task, taskthat I'll be reaching out to
somebody and I always have to goback.
I'll write out the thing that Ineed and then I go back and add
, like how are you today?
And a little bit of a personalstatement after the fact,

(29:53):
because it's always somethingthat I'm like, okay, I don't
need to.
Just, even if it's a Slackmessage, you know something as
quick as that.
I still try to slow down andmake sure I say hi, how are you?
And like me, and how, really Iwant to know how you were doing
you know like legitimately carethe way you ask those things.
Even that can always be tweakedor made more efficient.

(30:13):
So, for those of you who are inleadership positions or
managing others, it reallydoesn't.
You don't have to movemountains to be effective at
this.
It really is nuancing andlooking at the ways in which
you're communicating with yourteam currently and just finding
more ways to be personable andhuman and, yeah, acknowledge
what they've got going on insidetheir life and outside of life.

(30:34):
Because one of the things Iheard from a really great mentor
of mine he said a lot of timeswith people when they're
struggling right, if you havesomebody on, say, a performance
review, which is never fun whenyou're having to deal with that,
he says it's either skill, hillor will.
And skill is obviously theydon't have the skills needed to
sort of accomplish the taskthat's been given to them.

(30:57):
Hill is the fact that, like okay, there could be something going
on.
So usually, like I kind of comeat this when I'm struggling
with somebody to say, like okay,do you have what you need?
Do you know what actually needsto be done?
Is this clear to you?
Do you have the tools?
Do you know how to use thetools?
And then the other is the hill,and the hill sometimes is
personal.
You not know it, but they'vegot a dog.

(31:19):
That's like having to go intothe vet every day.
That's basically a part of thefamily and they're distressed in
doing and dealing with that,especially in our remote world.
Right, because we aremultitasking and dealing with
things with home and life all atthe same time at work as well,
which was it not before so muchthe case.
And then the last one is will,and he's like that's really
sometimes the last kind of strawthat breaks the camel's back.

(31:42):
Oftentimes it's like that'ssomething that you sometimes
can't get from them because theyjust don't have the motivation
to do it.
But if you can unearth theskill in the hill and get those
both solved, then really it'sjust a matter of will from there
, and I love that framing.
So I wanted to get back andshare it.
I think I might have shared itbefore on a podcast, but no.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
I think that's great For cross-functional teams too.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
It's really, really helpful.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yeah, it seems so simple.
Right, spend time with people,but you know, we don't, we don't
.
We have these deadlines, wehave these deadlines, we have
all these things and, yes,they're real.
But, like we talked aboutearlier, if we could just take
all the time of the angry DMsand water cooler conversations

(32:28):
complaining about and we couldtake that time and turn it into
building those relationshipswith people.
just imagine what we could do tothe bottom line and to the
culture and to like work-lifebalance or everything else, or
in just overall job satisfactionfor individuals, and you can't

(32:49):
tell me that there aren't likefinancial benefits to doing that
.
So, take the time, make it apriority, set up one-on-ones
that have nothing to do withwork, right.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
I wish we could quantify that again too, to just
really truly understand fromthe top down stakeholders and
all that that really needs to bethe case and that there is.
There are results behind thoseefforts.
It's not just you know, and Ithink we're starting to get
there with, like, it's not justsoft skills.
These are skills, period, thatare essential in leadership and
communication and managing teams.

(33:22):
On that note, do you have aframework for helping people
create psychological safetywithin teams, especially when
you're kind of pushing aninnovative solutions and or
dealing with everything we justtalked about, right, Everything
else happening in the world?

Speaker 2 (33:37):
You know, it's interesting that psychological
safety I have a differentperspective, I think, than some
may, or maybe, maybe not.
I think psychological safety,the whole concept of
psychological safety, is reallythe responsibility and
accountability of both leadersand individual contributors.
You know, I think, of course,as leaders, we, our teams,

(34:04):
deserve to be able to have opendialogue with us.
We need to, as I mentionedearlier, we need to welcome, not
avoid, the tough questions andchallenges.
Of course, be transparent, likewe talked about earlier as well
.
And again, your team is wellaware.
When you're not, they can tell.
When you're withholdinginformation, of course there's

(34:26):
things that you aren't able toshare, things like that.
But then tell them that.
Just say that I'm unable totell you at this time.
I promise you when I can, Iwill Let them know.
I think time spent, as we'vebeen talking about, on building
those relationships helps tobuild that psychological safety.
And if we've done thegroundwork of spending time

(34:50):
getting to know people, creatingopen dialogue, being
transparent, giving credit wherecredit was due, and we've done
all these other things we'vealready discussed, I don't think
psychological safety will be anissue.
It's not because you've createdthat culture of trust by just
doing those other things.
Now, on the flip side, as Imentioned, I think it's also the

(35:12):
responsibility of theindividual contributor.
You know, there is a point thatwhere leaders do and are asked
to make really tough decisionsand they're not always popular,
right, and it might be exactlywhat you don't want them to do,
but they're in that position fora reason and they're being

(35:32):
asked to do those things so,again, if you have that
foundation of the relationshipand the trust you've got to give
them a little bit, cut them alittle bit of slack in that,
recognize who it's coming from,why it's coming from them, and
that they, you know, they have,they're in this position and
they have to make thesedecisions.
So, to me, as an individualcontributor, if I have that

(35:56):
relationship with my leader orteam, um, and as long as those
decisions are not unethical,right, at some point we need to
just get the work done too.
Yeah, so I think that theconcept of psychological safety,
um, is, is like I said, it's,it's a, it's a, it's more than

(36:18):
just a leadership problem.
Oh, yes, it's a wholeconversation around the trust
and all of that, and then atsome point understanding that
leaders have to be leaderssometimes, and it's not easy.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
Right, and I think that's where leaders showing up
in a vulnerable way and a moretransparent way serves them well
when they have to sit down andhave those difficult
conversations, right, forexample?
Yeah, exactly Cause there'scertain things that it's a
hundred.
A more transparent way servesthem well when they have to sit
down and have those difficultconversations, all right.
For example yeah, exactlyBecause there's certain things
that's 100%, that's out of theircontrol, and it's like I've
definitely had those leadersthat have been that they've been
authentic, they've beentransparent in a way that is

(36:50):
still like professional, buthelpful and supportive, and it
has allowed us to get throughreally difficult situations and
scenarios and for me, being onthe receiving end of the some of
the negative side effects ofthose scenarios, I walked away
mad at one less person, likeit's like when you get bad news,
that's all you need is to havemore angst, more anger, more

(37:11):
anxiety over one person.
So I think again, like you know,as a leader you know, having
been led a lot of, having led alot of teams I have just really
found giving them an appropriatepeek behind the curtain to some
things and being like I don'talways have the answers, I don't
always have the final say, intrue honesty, is so much easier

(37:33):
than trying to pretend I haveall this authority that I don't.
So that when things come downthe line and and I really maybe
I've, I've they do I'veadvocated, because that's just
who I am.
Right, advocating things, butlike at, the end of the day, I
didn't win and this is what it'sgoing to be, and that's not
easy, but then that again, thatto me just feels better and like
, okay, I get it, but, and I canget behind that it's not.

(37:55):
I'm not going to love it, but Iknow you're not loving it either
and I think that that's really,really helpful in the way of
you know, of just creating aspace for psychological safety.
I don't think we have to beaccountable for anybody else's
psychological safety per se.
I'm kind of with you on that.
I think it's more aboutcreating that space to allow for
it, because even still, likeyou, like you have to think

(38:17):
about the fact that people arecoming with baggage and past
experiences and trauma so youcan create all the psychological
safety you want as a leader.
That doesn't mean they're stillgoing to be able to show up in
that way.
It's going to take time, energy, effort, maybe a little bit of
digging, even and that's where Ialso think managers and leaders
, especially leaders ofinnovation, that maybe kind of

(38:38):
frightens people.
I think that's where you know,just the vulnerability as a
leader actually comes into playto help you be stronger as such,
because it's like, instead ofpeople being fearful of you
every time you want to come andtalk to them, they're just like
oh yeah, no big deal.
All right, let's talk about whatthe thing is, you know.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, yeah, and I've had lots of experiences with
that.
You know both where I receivedthe news I didn't want to hear,
um, and where I had to delivernews that I knew wasn't going to
be popular, and it's hard, it'shard, Um.
I think you said somethingearlier.
As long as your team knows thatyou're advocating, I think
that's important, right?

(39:18):
They need to know that you'rebehind them as a leader and
you've got their back.
You know I have been calledmama bear in the past.
I take it as a huge compliment,because I think that's my job as
a leader and I always look forleaders that are going to treat
me that way, that are going toadvocate for me and speak up for

(39:39):
me and remind people that Ihave value right or that I have
good ideas, just like I want todo with my team.
Like we talked about givingcredit where credit is due.
Um, I think that's important.
I think if you have that trust,that to your point, even when
you have to deliver the badmessage, they know it's not you

(40:00):
Right, and they know it mightjust be budget, it might just be
tough times or might just be ano, not right now.
It might be coming from a boardmember.
Who knows what it's coming fromright A million other reasons.
You know, they know it's not you, they know you tried, they know
you gave it your best effort.
It still stinks when you haveto deliver that, those messages

(40:20):
that people don't want to hear.
But then I think you can alsobe vulnerable and say you know
what?
I agree, I wish that this wasdifferent.
I wish the situation had playedout differently, but it didn't.
And here's where we are and wehave a choice to make now.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
You're not sleeping under the rug, you're not
diminishing their feelings orthe outcome of what's being done
.
You are acknowledging that infull and, like you said, this is
trust, is such a two-way street, creating psychological safety
for one another as a two-waystreet and, I have to say,
outside of just getting yourbusiness goals and objectives
done and making money andhitting metrics, like all that's
important.

(40:56):
But there's longevity to thistoo.
It just reminded me of when wehad a mass amount of layoffs at
one of our agencies and I'dforgotten that I had done this.
And when I tell people they'relike of course, you did that,
amy.
One of the C-suite guys came outof one of the rooms, the
huddles, where they were doingthe layoffs, and he just was a
wreck, just looked miserable,and I just walked up and I guess

(41:17):
I gave him a hug and I said areyou okay?
Do you need anything?
And it was years later and hetells me that you did this and
he's like I don't know if youremember doing this, but you did
this for me and I have neverforgotten and I kid you not,
this person has supported thisorganization.
He has supported otherinitiatives for minorities and
things like that.
Like you know, he has used hisprivilege, you know, to show up

(41:41):
and has been a great supporterand even friend to me since then
, and it was just one smalllittle moment that I honestly
barely remember that you knowagain, when you show up, even
with a little bit, of creatingpsychological safety for your
own coworkers even your leadersometimes and being that safe
space for them pays off in thelong run.
Because, at the end of the day,we're not just this one job,

(42:03):
we're not just this one role,right.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
Absolutely.
Yeah, that's.
I love that story and you'reright, you were probably in the
thick of your own, blurred inthat situation.
And again, that humanness, thatremembering that people are
still humans at the end of theday.
You know people first always.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, he was like that was the worst day of my
life, he's like.
Worst day, he's like.
But that really helped me inthat moment because, you know, I
still a wreck for the rest ofthe day, the week, the month,
however long, but he's like.
I never want to have to gothrough that again, but he's
like it really did make adifference.
So, yeah, just don't be shyabout showing up, even for your
leaders, because sometimes theyforget they're human too.
And I think for me that was areally good way to get through

(42:47):
even some of my most challengingand most difficult, either,
whether it was across-functional team member or
another team member or a leader.
It's just kind of creating thatpsychological safety for them
as well.
Again, I think we do ask for ita lot as employees, but you
know, you've got something tooffer as well.
That's right.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Good point, good reminder yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
All right, I would love to hear a little bit more
about your unique perspective onturning small wins into
enterprise-wide impact, becauseyou've worked at some big places
, as we've mentioned already.
I'd love for you to talk usthrough a little bit of your
approach there.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
Yeah, you know we we've touched on it a little bit
, but I think turning small winsinto enterprise impact.
It all goes back to what we'vebeen saying.
You know, my foundation isalways in this build
relationship give credit wherecredit is due.
I think the number one thing wecan do as leaders is brag about
our team, promote the smallwins across the organization,

(43:45):
give credit where credit is dueand recognize the hard work and
the efforts of the team early,and often, even if the work is
relatively small, it's stillimportant to celebrate it.
You know, when we do that, wewe not only energize our team
and make them feel good, whichwill then encourage them to go

(44:05):
do more, better work, but wealso promote the team in a way
to the organization, so that theorganization will then have
trust in us.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
Right.
So if we can prove to theorganization you know, in a
digital product perspective,that we can, maybe then the cool
work will follow.
Yeah Right, the cool work willfollow, because we all want to
do the cool work.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
Right.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
And we'll be trusted with that bigger initiative
because we've proven the smallwins.
So the small wins have a hugeimpact to the overall larger
initiatives because again theteam is tested, proven and then
all of a sudden we get into arhythm and then here you go,
their new cool initiative getsfunded and there's confidence

(44:53):
across the organization and theteam that you can do it.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
I love it.
That is fantastic, such a good,good reminder, because I think,
yeah, it's true, we just kindof move from one small
initiative to the next small tothe next big and we never really
slow down to take a moment andcelebrate.
And creating those moments ofcelebration reinforce the
positive right.
It sounds silly, but like ifanybody's here raising kids, you

(45:17):
know, like punishment and fearand all of that kind of stuff A
lot of us were raised that wayand it worked to a degree but it
didn't substantiate trust, itdidn't necessarily create better
outcomes, but by kind ofbuilding up these wins for your
team, it's building momentum andgiving them the opportunity to
show up and shine and be theirbest selves.

(45:38):
One thing I learned I was at acompany where, when I first
started, they asked me what mylove language was.
And I was like you, what what'sa love language?
I didn't even know at the timeand then I wanted to know well
why.
I was like I'll definitely takethe test and I'll tell you, but
I'm curious as to why.
And they said because that'show we like to make sure we
recognize people.
You know we one guy inparticular like words of

(45:59):
affirmation was not his jam,like it really put him in an
uncomfortable position.
But then some of us who we oftenthe whole idea of, if you're
not familiar, is that we oftengive love in the way in which we
like to receive it.
However, certain people don'talways receive in the same way,
so it's things like words ofaffirmation, physical touch,
gifts, acts of service.
And let's see the other one, oh, quality time.

(46:20):
Look at me.
I remembered all five Very good, and so knowing what your
team's individual love languagesare actually could translate
into how you acknowledge thethings that they're doing at
work, the ways in which youmight celebrate the wins,
because I knew never to make apublic admiration about Steven,
because he would literally be inthe corner in a ball, huddled

(46:40):
up like fetal positioned.
I just please stop talking aboutme.
You know it was really more.
Let's the two of us go hang outand have lunch together or buy
him a small gift.
You know, so kind of knowingthose individual things will, I
think, even take what you justsaid, which is brilliant, that
kind of celebrating the smallwins to the next level, not just
for your whole team but on anindividual level as well.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that's a greatconnection to love languages.
I'm very familiar, yeah, andyou're right.
And in a virtual world it'strickier, right, and so not
everybody wants the Slackmessage with with all the little
emojis next to it, so that'ssaying congratulations or
celebrate, right, so that's areally good point to make.
It becomes a little bit moremore tricky because you don't

(47:26):
have access or quick access toall of those, so you have to get
creative.
Maybe it's sending a digitalgift card, right, and that's
enough.
But I think you're right,you've got to get to know and
invest in your team and kind ofunderstand what it is that they,
that they like and appreciate.
And again, I think those smallwins it just the kudos, in
whatever way, is necessarilySari are, are it just again

(47:50):
creates an environment wherethey want to be there.
Um, they know that they'rerespected and they're
appreciated.
Um, and again, bigger thingscan come from that.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yes, yeah, absolutely .
I had a boss when I was, uh, Iworked through, all through
college and I did so much forthat office and it was so funny
because he was not the kind ofperson who ever said thank you
and I wouldn't say that I'mreally high on words of
affirmation, but I think at thetime I certainly was, and with
that job it was.
It was something that I neededmore of, because I remember
being blindsided when I leftschool and he, like offered to

(48:21):
like double my salary to stayOnce I finished school.
And I'm like but you don't evendo you even like me working
here.
I had no verbal affirmationswhatsoever for him from like for
three years.
All of a sudden he's like oh,let's go to breakfast, let's
talk about you staying.
And I'm like but I just wentthrough three years of school to
get out of here.

(48:41):
But if you would have beenworking all along and understood
and known what I needed and theways of affirmation that I was
doing a good job, then maybe I'dhave been ready to say I would
consider staying, but it wasjust so out of the blue.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
I'm like, who is this person?
Yeah, I kind of missed the markon that.
An opportunity, that whole time, right.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
But yeah, it was funny, it was a good, it was a
good scenario there and yeah, no, he was, he was fun to work for
.
Still, regardless, but allright, how do you balance the
need for rapid iteration withbuilding trust, that constant
tension of deadlines, timelinesand then all of these nuanced
things we're kind of talkingabout in building trust?

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Oh gosh, to me this is easy.
It's stop moving the goalposts,just stop.
Establish clear goals andpriorities from the top down.
Um, you know, we we talkedabout earlier, you can't have 10
number ones and while there'snothing, that nothing, in my

(49:39):
opinion nothing derails a teamor reduces the trust more than
constant change.
Yes, I mean, it's just notsomething.
You know, we, we're, we're a lotof us are type A's and we're
planners and we're organizersand we map out what we think our
next month is going to looklike for work, and then to have
it flipped on its head and haveto recreate the wheel 10 times

(50:00):
really destroys the trust.
So you know, like I said,that's a leadership challenge,
right, it's.
It's all the C-suite, or thedecision makers, aligned If
they're not, stop, get alignedand then come back to the team.
Don't let the team sit in thatswirl.
Yeah, because you know, andthat's what I mean by stop

(50:22):
moving the goalposts.
Right, because you know, thedeadlines can't keep shifting,
the scope can't keep gettingbigger, the the.
You know, and again, I'mprobably preaching to everybody
who's listening, because we'veall lived this, but it really
does affect the trust.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
And you're going to slow things down, not speed
things up, because you have toreplan and reorganize over and
over, and, over and over againand no actual good work gets out
the door.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
Yeah, should be on a t-shirt.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Stop moving the gold.
That's a soundbite, by the way,yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
Post-production team right there.
That was like solid gold there.
That little like 15 seconds.
It's so true.
It's such a simple answer and Ibut sometimes it doesn't seem
that simple, but it is it's sovery true the the more the
dynamics and the change.
It's just like you because,again, right, then all of a
sudden you're just like youstart working towards a new
direction and then you're like,well, what's the point of

(51:15):
working so hard on this?
Because I know in five minutesit's going to change.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
Yeah, yep, exactly, and, and it's not a and no one
wants to feel, or you know, Idon't want to feel like I'm not
accomplishing something, and Ithink when, when that happens,
and frequently or frequently, itjust creates that, that
environment where nothing evergets done, and it's a common
it's like a joke after a whileright.

(51:40):
It's common, unfortunately, indigital product, and so this is
near and dear to my heart and Ifeel this to the core when I
talk about it.
But really it goes back towhat's your company's strategy.
What do you want to be when yougrow up?
What do you want to do in thenext six to 12 months?

(52:02):
Right, like, what are you?
What's your target?
You know, what customer baseare you going after what?
What market do you want toenter into?
I mean, there's a millionquestions, right?
What do our users need?
How do we increase revenue inthis way, instead of trying to
boil the ocean Because when weboil the ocean as leaders.
That's when the goalposts changeYep, yep, and you need a

(52:24):
C-suite or a leadership group ora board who's all aligned to
the same goals yeah, no, I lovethat, that's.
Oh, that could be a wholenother hour, right it is like I
can feel it in my chest, likeI'm like, oh, because, yeah, it
does.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
It becomes a joke.
People don't take things asseriously it's the boy who cried
wolf in business form andbuilding products, exactly,
exactly and that applies toanything right marketing
campaigns and anything right.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
Stop moving the goalposts.
Yeah, I love it, that's great.
I mean all right and withwithin reason.
Of course, there are somepivots that are required, right,
market shifts and some, youknow look, we have example in
california right now thatthere's there's fires happening.
Something's going to have tochange and drop because
something catastrophic ishappening or something huge

(53:14):
market shift is happening.
So of course, there's alwaysthose exceptions, but most of
the time they're just exceptionsnot the rule.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
No, I love that, I like, and you said there, it's a
great example.
Give context again.
Context and clarity, moretransparency to why it's okay.
Yeah, the post is moving, buthere's why You're going to get
better alignment and betterreaction.
People might not be happy, butat least they have an
understanding going in as towhat happened and why,
especially if it's out of anyoneelse's control.
All right, let's see.
Okay, this wouldn't be amarketing and product

(53:49):
conversation without bringing upAI, of course, so I was curious
to hear from you what role doestrust play in AI implementation
and adoption, because it has astruggle for some people in
different places andorganizations.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
Yeah, you know it's funny.
You know, in digital, every fewyears we have a new trend right
, it was, you know, responsivedesign.
At one point I'm dating myself.
It was, you know, responsivedesign.
At one point I'm dating myself.
Um, omni-channel, you know,transformation, like all these
things right, are are thebuzzwords and that it's AI.
Right, and we know that and,believe me, I am, I use AI in my

(54:19):
personal life and myprofessional life almost daily.
I mean, it definitely makeslife easier.
It's awesome.
But, coming from a digitalproduct perspective, I will say
we need to ask ourselves, orcontinue to ask ourselves, what
problem are we trying to solvewith AI?
Yes, right, regardless.

(54:40):
You know, we tend to get allwrapped up in the new hotness
and the new shiny object of theday, and that's what AI is right
now and again, awesome.
But let's go back to ourfundamental roots of how we
solve things for our users,right?
What are the problems the usersare seeing?

(55:01):
What does our current data tellus that AI is going to help
with?
What problem are we trying tosolve?
Can our current infrastructureeven support it?
I mean, I have seen and havebeen part of organizations who
think, oh, I'll just build AIand I'll just bolt it onto what
I've got right now, but thetruth is it's not going to
happen because there's a wholefoundation that needs to be

(55:22):
built before we can implement it.
Right, are there bigger painpoints that we should be
addressing with our customers orour users?
First, because, yes, it's cool,but if our fundamental
e-commerce site, for example, ordigital app, you know, whatever

(55:43):
experience isn't even at par,why are we talking about ai
exactly?
Right, like, I think, beforeinsisting that the team go off
and build these things, let'slike, you know, just because
it's the new cool thing, yep,let's make sure that we're
focused and we have the strategybehind it, um, that the data

(56:06):
and the strategy are front andcenter and it truly, and then it
will make the team, it willcreate the trust within the team
.
Right, the just because?
Answer because everybody'sdoing it isn't going to cut it
for the team's perspective andwe talked about earlier

(56:28):
perspective and we talked aboutearlier not being the smartest
in the room.
Listen to your experts aboutwhat needs to be put in place
prior or where you might want tofocus some efforts or parallel
path.
Right, fix the foundation andfocus on innovation.
Right, like, do some of thosethings together.
But that's kind of myperspective is is I think it is

(56:51):
not going away, but I think weneed to be smart about it and
make sure that we're reallytackling the right problem.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
Yeah, Agreed it's.
It's kind of like getting a, atitanium and cool grip handled
hammer, and being like take thisand go build a sandcastle with
it because it's the new toolthat everybody's using.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
That's it right.
Calm down everyone, let's makesure we're doing the right thing
.
You know, not saying that it'sgoing away or that it isn't,
isn't, shouldn't be part of theroadmap.
Right, it might need to be,yeah, but let's make sure we're
we're we're focused on thestrategy and not just going to
build it just because Right toolfor the right problem.
Yeah, I agree?

Speaker 1 (57:30):
All right, we've got just a few minutes left, so I
want to give a nudge to our livelistening audience to see if
you all have any questions.
Please feel free to drop themin the chat.
I see that you guys have beenhaving some conversations, so we
love seeing that as well, whilewe're waiting to see if any

(57:56):
other questions come through,karen, I would love for you to
give us a quick snapshot of howyou work to rebuild trust after,
maybe, a failed digital productlaunch or initiative?

Speaker 2 (58:00):
You know, I think we talked about it a little bit.
It's acknowledging what wentwrong as a leader, with humility
and transparency, andcommunicating openly to the team
or to the executives or towhoever about what didn't go
according to plan, and thenspending time after the fact to
focus on, you know, sort of thatpostmortem what are the lessons

(58:21):
learned and how do we takeconcrete next steps to ensure
that we improve the processes ordeployment or whatever in the
future?
You know, how do we make surewe don't run into those same
issues in the future?
I think you just have to behonest and truthful.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
I love that.
It also reminded me I'm such aquotes gal.
I read a quote recently thatwas Nelson Mandela that I want
to put in my seven year old'sroom because he's such a
perfectionist.
And we've talked about likefailing fast and failing forward
and all of that, but it was Inever lose, I only win or learn
something.
And I was like I love thatmentality.
I kind of want to put iteverywhere right now Because,

(59:03):
again, all of the pressures thatwe have coming on us, as you
know, at work, at home and lifein general, it's just, you know,
we've just really got to find away to embrace that idea of
it's not necessarily a failure,it's not a reason to stop and
quit, it's a reason to learnsomething.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
So I love it.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
Great quote.
It's a good one, Like I said Ilove a good quote, awesome, all
right.
Well, I didn't see anyquestions come through from our
live listening audience.
We've got like just a minuteleft, so we'll see if we can
squeeze in this one lastquestion what is one trust
building exercise or practicethat you wish you had known
about early in your career?

Speaker 2 (59:38):
Yeah, this is the.
This is a whole personalreflection moment.
I honestly think simplicity islearning how to listen first.
You know, when you're cominginto a new organization, a new
team, new project, newinitiative, whatever, we cannot
assume that all of our pastexperiences are going to apply.
I'm sure some of them will.

(01:00:00):
That's why you're there, that'swhy you were brought to that
project or that team.
But we need to spend time,sometimes even months, meeting
people, asking them about theirday to day, trying to understand
their goals, their challenges.
You know, getting to know thempersonally, like we talked about
before, all before coming inand trying to change the world.

(01:00:22):
Yeah, and that is hard when weinstinctually, you know, and as
someone who's been doing thisfor a while, I instinctually
often know what to go fix, but Ican't go in and fix it day one.
I need to spend the time andthe effort to truly understand
the players, the people, thegoals and objectives.

(01:00:43):
So I think that's what I wish Ihad known early in my career.
I think I've learned thatthrough trial and error, quite
honestly, and so that's what Iwould, that's what I would
recommend.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
I love that because it is true.
I think the take and I alwaysloved being like the new kid on
the block right and then beingable to play that card of like
well, I'm new here so I don'treally know.
Because you have to investigateand understand before you can
start to make you know to advise, because I think you need to
really prove that you've doneyour time in the research to
know that you're speaking from aplace of you know,

(01:01:16):
understanding.
Otherwise, you're just going tobe keep bringing to the table
things that you're going to betold we've done that.
This is already happening.
And so it looks kind of likeyou're just running around
shooting off ideas withouthaving taken the time to get the
foundation down and understandwhat's there and what's being
done currently.
And it can be again.
It can be a factor of breakingtrust, because then you're like

(01:01:38):
well, are you looking at thethings, Are you reading the
things, Are you doing the things?
I think, being an investigator,when you come into those kinds
of spaces and makingrecommendations for innovation
and changes, I agree I've alwaystried to make sure I'm like
done, my eyes cross my T'sbecause I don't want to be like
look, I have this great idea.
And they're like yeah, we triedit and it failed and there's all

(01:01:59):
kinds of documentation about itfor you that we shared with you
, but you didn't look at it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
I was like, oh my bad .
Yes, you didn't look at it.
I was like, yes, yes, yes, andthere will come a time where you
can come in and make thoserecommendations.
There will, it will come.
It just might not be right away.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
You have to be patient for it, stay curious.
Yeah for sure, wonderful.
Well, karen, thank you so much.
This is such a wonderfulconversation.
I hope all of you got as muchout of it as we did.
It was really great.
Like again, as you're speaking,you're giving me so many
thoughts and ideas and bringingback a lot of memories and
things that we have to all workthrough and kind of just knowing

(01:02:34):
that trust is a paramountfactor in moving the needle
forward in kind of all thingsbusiness, life, you name it.
You've given us some reallygreat takeaways today, so thank
you for that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
Oh, thank you, Amy.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I could talk about this forhours, so thank you for giving
me some time today with youAbsolutely, and we'll be talking
more soon.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
Karen is going to be at our Columbus event talking
about partnerships on January22nd, so if you're listening and
you're in the Columbus area, besure to hop on over and check
out that fantastic event.
Along with our Cohatch partners, karen will be there with a
couple other speakers, soexcited to hear about how that
goes.
Karen, thank you so much forbeing here.

(01:03:15):
Thank you again.
All right, everyone.
Hopefully you can join us nextweek.
Until then, everyone, keepasking, keep giving and keep
growing.
We'll see you all later.
Bye.