March 3, 2025 • 49 mins
Discover the transformative impact of design thinking on business innovation in this episode of The Power Lounge. Amy Vaughan welcomes Karen Baker, managing owner of Seven Concepts Inc., recognized by Forbes as one of “3 Women Breaking The Glass Ceiling In The Male-Dominated Tech Industry.” With 26 years of experience driving marketing innovation and enhancing organizational performance across public, private, and academic sectors, Karen shares her expertise in crafting and executing growth strategies. Her collaborations with organizations such as Pernod Ricard, the American Diabetes Association, AARP, Black Entertainment Network, and the Smithsonian illustrate how design thinking goes beyond aesthetics to drive substantial business growth and resilience. Learn how integrating designers into strategic roles can transform your business approach and discover practical methods to implement these strategies in your own work. Whether you're in digital marketing or passionate about creative strategy, this conversation offers actionable insights to elevate your business innovation and adaptability through design.
Connect with Karen Baker on LinkedIn
Key Takeaways:
Karen Baker's Background and Career
Understanding Design Thinking
Application of Design Thinking in Various Sectors
Design Thinking as a Catalyst for Business Transformation
Influences on Karen Baker’s Approach to Design Leadership
The Role of Community in Design Thinking and Business Success
Technology and Its Impact on Design Thinking and Business Strategy
Social Art and Culture's Purpose and Impact
Transferable Skills and Career Adaptability
Role of Research in Design Thinking
Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction
01:18 - "Empowering Women in Business Design"
04:17 - Design Thinking in Program Development
08:13 - Design Thinking Solves Complex Problems
09:46 - Passion for Creative Problem-Solving
15:13 - Insightful Learning Experience
16:34 - "Podcasting: Focused Creative Reflection"
20:18 - Mastering AI in Food Photography
22:49 - Designing Impactful Social Programs
28:07 - "Blending Creativity and Strategy"
29:58 - Versatile Skills Across Industries
32:53 - Crossover Impact in Health Care
35:09 - Design Requires Community Collaboration
40:12 - Tech Vital for Small Businesses
42:00 - "Enhancing Business with Tech Tools"
44:45 - "Power Round Q&A Session"
48:31 - Upcoming Master Class Announcement
49:00 - Outro
Quotes:
"Good design isn't just about aesthetics; it's about transforming creativity into a competitive advantage."- Amy Vaughan
"Design thinking is not a theory; it's a methodology born to solve problems, turning ideas into impactful change across every facet of life."- Karen Baker
Connect with the host Amy Vaughan:
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Power Lounge Podcast
Learn more about Together Digital and consider joining the movement by visiting togetherindigital.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello everyone and welcome to our weekly power
lounge.
This is your place to hearauthentic conversations from
those who have power to share.
My name is Amy Vaughn and I amthe owner and chief empowerment
officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who choose toshare their knowledge, power
and connections.
You can join the movement attogetherindigitalcom, and today
(00:31):
we are joined by someone who istransforming how businesses
think about implementing design.
Karen Baker is the managingowner of Seven Concepts Inc and
has spent 26 years providingdesign thinking that isn't just
about aesthetics.
It's a powerful engine forbusiness growth.
Named by Forbes as one of threewomen breaking the wait it
(00:52):
might've been not three, itmight've been a year there that
got lost being noted as a womanby Forbes who was breaking the
glass ceiling in male-dominatedtech industry, karen has been
instrumental in reshaping howorganizations like Pernod
Richard and Think Local First DCapproach innovation.
She brings a unique perspectiveon turning creativity into the
(01:14):
competitive advantage, and weare thrilled to have her here
with us to share her insightswith our community.
Welcome, karen.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Excited to be here.
Hey everybody, good to see you,amy, as always, good to see you
too.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
And we've got a future masterclass coming up
with you as well, it's great,our last two podcast guests have
been masterclass, futuremasterclass facilitators too.
So you know, if you can't getenough and you need some more,
Karen, you can join us for thatas well.
So we're excited for that,Karen, and again, just excited
to hear your perspective andview on all things design and
(01:49):
design thinking.
You've been a champion for thatfor over two decades and I'm
really curious what first drewyou to see design as more than
just a creative tool but anactual catalyst for business
transformation?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
That is such a great question.
It really took me to go toSavannah College of Art and
Design and get my master's indesign management, and it took
someone else to see in me thatthis was a career path for me.
A recruiter from SCAD saw myinformation for something else I
had applied for anothermaster's degree and hit me and
(02:23):
said I think this would be agreat opportunity for me for you
to come into.
So she sat with me here in DCand went through everything.
I had no idea about designthinking at the time, didn't
know anything about themethodology, and she was like
this is an opportunity for youto advance yourself in business,
you know, and in your career tolearn a new skill.
She was absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I love it, and what a way to pay it forward to see
that potential in somebody andthen just go right forward and
let them know.
Love that and I love SCAD.
I worked for a video marketingcompany where we did a lot of
animations.
Oh yeah, we did some recruitingtrips and we got to go down
there and what an amazing campusand school and such brilliant
(03:04):
students.
I was jealous.
I went to an art college but itwas in Chicago and it was
nothing like SCAD.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
But I loved it there.
Well, you know, scad is a youngschool, so they have an
opportunity to we talk aboutinnovation, to be innovative
because they are so young, sothey keep, you know, trying new
things.
Yeah, you know, and this was aprogram that was a new thing for
them too, that's so wonderful.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I would also give kudos to the uh cleveland
institute of art.
We went up there as well andthey're like, um like, not just
their interior design, but theirindustrial design program was
really cool okay I was justnerding out so hard, I was just
thinking like all of thesedifferent ways again in which
design flows through and existsin every little thing that we do
(03:48):
.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
And we just, we take it for granted so much, very
much so, very much so, I think,because we've just been taught
that it's the end and the onlything.
Creative is what you see.
It's not what you have the ideaabout in the process of
creating.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
We don't yeah, we don't see that and often don't
value it Definitely, and so Iwant to dig into that a little
bit more too, in how your workwith organizations across public
, private, academic sectorsbecause you've really helped
span them all what's been one ofthe more surprising ways that
you've seen design thinking helpwith business growth.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
You know there are a couple.
One I wasn't involved with, butI'll still mention it the
Smithsonian actually used designthinking and they used it with
their team in order to createbetter opportunities in
programming with nonprofitorganizations as an opportunity
(04:47):
to research and strategizebefore you just go putting a
program into your organizationthat also then goes into the
community as well.
And I think Local First was agood opportunity for me to do
that over the four years ofcontinuing to create something
new.
What is the need?
And then let's look at whythere's a need and then let's
come up with a program that'sgoing to fulfill that gap,
(05:07):
that's going to give people whatthey need, you know.
Then the business side.
You know an opportunity to doit in banking, which was really
exciting, you know, to meet witha marketing director, to meet
with the person who'sresponsible for banking in the
community and get their feedback, and out of that came a new
banking program Wow.
So it was a new banking programfor startups that didn't exist
(05:28):
before, and we made some tweaksto it to ensure that we could
again get more people into theinstitution as well.
But that was design.
We went through that entireprocess, you know of mapping
journey, mapping empathy, youknow, talking through interviews
, all of that stuff to create abanking program, and those are
the things that people don'tknow are happening when you do
(05:49):
design, on design thinking inparticular.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, let's pause for that.
To kind of get to that Cause.
I think you know most of ourmembers and listeners are pretty
astute in like the space ofdigital advertising, marketing,
design, um.
But I just also realized that,like I was probably six years
into my career in an agencybefore I even heard the term
design thinking, and so I wantto remind our live listeners you
(06:12):
all can jump into the chat, askquestions if you have them.
We'd love to hear them.
But I want to back up for asecond for those of our
listeners who maybe don't know.
You can talk about design beingthe end product.
How would you define designthinking?
Because you alluded to somesteps there, but how do we paint
that picture for our listeningaudience?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, that's a great question and a good thing to
actually speak about, becausepeople have taken design
thinking as a method.
It's a methodology, first ofall.
So people are clear it's amethodology, because I've had
people ask well, what does it do, or is it a practice, or is it,
is it a theory?
It's not a theory, it's amethodology.
(06:49):
So, and the methodology isbirthed out of the design
council in the UK, so they usewhat it's like a five diamond
system, and so there's a processyou go through with ideation,
visualization, you go throughplanning, implementation and
execution, so there's somethings that are very similar.
People look at agile as one.
However, design thinking is wayahead and came before that, and
(07:13):
so that is the process that yougo through.
When you're bringing a product,a program, a business that
you're designing into existence,those are the things that you
go through to get there.
So those, those are methodologypractices that you use.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
I love it.
That's great.
Yes, I recall when I learnedabout it it was from a woman who
had interned and then gottenhired into our agency and she
kind of took us through thatsteps and we did a practice of
like I think it was likebuilding and making like a
little purse out of paper and wewere trying to solve the
problem and it was such a greatkind of contextual way and
hands-on way for us to learn.
It has always stayed with me andthen I am super proud.
(07:49):
I got to give her a shout outin case she's listening.
Caitlin ended up.
Now she's at ideo, which is,like, known for their design
thinking right, also proud ofher and the work she's done.
So anyhow, yeah, another greatcompany to follow if you're
interested in like the designthinking and design methodology.
Yeah, so you have applied thisacross corporate giants to
(08:09):
non-profit organizations, soeveryone can benefit from this.
Yes, how does your approach todesign driven changes shift
between these differentenvironments?
Do they change or do you modifythem based on where?
Whoever you're consulting for?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
that's a great question question, and I'll go
back when you said the problemsolve.
That's the purpose of designthinking is about problem
solving.
You go in.
It's how complex the problem is, and I think that answers your
question.
It really depends on howcomplex it is as to if there's
any pieces within themethodology that we may not have
to spend as much time in iswhat happens.
(08:45):
So you know, if you're talkingabout health equity, you know
the work that we did withAmerican Diabetes Association
when I was at Boathouse.
That was complex.
You know, when we're talkingabout looking at mindset of
those who are people living withtype two diabetes and why
they're not talking to theirfamilies or why they're not
getting the patient educationthat they need, those are really
(09:07):
complex problems.
So we were in research formonths, you know, talking to
people, going through medicalconferences, trying to make sure
that we fully understood enoughbefore we even got into the
space of designing anything.
You know we were in thatparticular area of research,
which is again part of designthinking.
So it really depends on howcomplex the problem is as to how
(09:30):
much you spend in each stepwhen you're looking at design as
well, too, because you want tobe able to measure it.
You want to know that there'sgreat outcomes in anything that
you do with design.
It's good design, good design.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
No, exactly, yeah, Just thoughtful, intentional,
purposeful.
I think that's what I've alwaysloved about our industry and
what we do is like I've alwaysbeen creative, but I love using
my creativity to solve problems.
Yes, I wish I could just makeart for the sake of art and feel
satisfied, and sometimes I dobut it's like more so.
I just really love beingcreative and solving problems,
(10:04):
and that's.
I think what I've always lovedabout design thinking as well.
You know, for a lot of ourmembers within the Together
Digital organization, a lot ofthem are working in educating
and really fighting for theability to elevate creative
thinking within theirorganizations, especially if
maybe they're in-house and notwithin an agency or serving
clients that are not, you know,a creative type of company.
(10:26):
What are some strategies thatyou found most effective when
advocating for design seat?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
when it comes to the strategy, yeah, the biggest
thing is advocating to have aseat at that table, because
often you don't have a seat atthe table, I think.
I've found more designers in mycareer that don't have a seat
at the table from the beginning.
Everything is brought to themafter decisions are made and
they have thoughts, they haveexpertise.
(10:55):
Some things that are decided inthe strategy phase won't work
when you try to be in a planningthrough execution timeframe.
So even when you're in thevisualization standpoint, it's
an opportunity to have designersat the table bringing that
level of what you just spokeabout creativity to the
(11:17):
conversation to say this is whatI could bring and this is what
would be even better than whatwe have Now.
You gotta have diverse voices,and designers at the table
really bring a diverse voice aswell too.
So lobby for a seat at thattable to make sure that you can
bring in your expertise and youget a chance to hear firsthand
why decisions were made, becausewhen you get it at the end, you
(11:40):
don't even know why decisionswere made.
You're just following suit, youknow.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, we aren't just here to make things look pretty,
not at all.
I always say that, just that.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah, I always say that stop looking at designers
only to make things that lookgood.
Yeah, you know at the end, yeah, that's a part of it,
absolutely, but it is not theonly.
You know the level of researchthat a designer has to do.
There's quite a bit of work.
Even if they're in the graphicdesigner, even if they are an
(12:10):
artist, they still have to do alevel of research.
Creative people have to do alevel of research to bring that
work to you as well.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, and there's something.
There's nothing better than thetwo things coming together of
something that is beautifullydesigned and beautifully
functional.
That's right, right that's right, it is the best feeling and I
think that's what I enjoyed somuch about going through the
industrial design portion of thethe schools we talked about
because it was that it was thatfunctionality meets beauty, and
(12:39):
it was just like it feels sogenius.
It's the same thing when I goto like planned cities or like
neighborhoods that are justintentionally laid out.
It's like the aesthetic isthere, but then also the ease
and flow of use is there andit's so so critical and what
we're building and creatingacross the board, so I love it.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I love it and I love industrial design Right.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I am the same in architecture and all that stuff.
I mean it's just it really,really adds to, I think, our
quality of life Correct.
You know and we do take it forgranted.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
We do take it for granted, absolutely.
So yeah, we need our designersat the table.
I love that advice.
That's good advice.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
So bring them.
If you're not the designeryourself, bring a designer with
you early, yeah exactly yeah,with you early.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, exactly yeah, open the door to them.
You know, if you come into acompany and you find that they
are not part of thatconversation, you know have a
conversation about opening themto be part of that table.
You know, and and it's even agreat experience, you know to be
part of those conversations forthem.
You know, to it's also when youtalk about a cultural belonging
.
You know they feel like theybelong and they're not separated
(13:47):
from this leadership team.
They're inclusive in thatleadership team.
I think that's also veryimportant.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Agreed.
I don't think everybody wantsto just be the hands.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Some people do.
Don't get me wrong, I've gotpeople.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
I've worked with people that are like just give
me the thing and let me do itbut for the most part, yeah.
If you really want to bringpeople along on the journey of
what it is that you're trying tobuild and create like, you have
to involve them.
Yeah, you know they need to bebought into, and then they will
put in their best effort as wellCorrect Absolutely, absolutely.
So I'm curious what has eitherwho or what has been some
(14:24):
influences for you and how you?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Oh, that's a great question.
I think that a couple I'll saya couple people probably come to
mind more than anything.
One is a former advisor of mine, dr Leslie Noel.
She's now a dean in TorontoAwesome, that is about
(14:48):
inclusivity.
She's always big on observationand listening, you know, and so
that type of leadership mirrorsmy leadership, you know as well
, and then has been veryinstrumental, you know, in my
career as well, to elevating mythinking around design,
particularly design research,which is what I was getting my
(15:09):
doctorate in.
And so those, you know that isjust a good model you know to
follow.
I do like IDL.
I just finished a class withthem last- night, as a matter of
fact.
Yeah, so, and I've taken twoclasses with them and they
always I go in saying in twoclasses with them and they
(15:34):
always I go in saying, oh, Iknow this, but then I learn so
much more, right, you know.
So I really think that theyhave a really good model and you
know, it has been and I'm gonnabe honest, it's been debate,
you know, particularly inpedagogy.
Let me say that, um, about howmuch they have done or what they
bring, but really really whothey hire, let me say that to
instruct these classes or createthese levels of this curriculum
(15:56):
has been good for me and I'vebeen in this for a while and I
still come out learning more,you know.
So I just think they are reallya great model for education,
particularly when you just needa little bit, you know, not
necessarily a whole degree, butyou need just a little bit to
keep you kind of knowing what'sgoing on with the industry
(16:17):
staying relevant to themarketplace.
Definitely, I think that it'sextremely, you know, extremely
important as well.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
You can tell that they live and breathe it for
sure they have got such apassion for it, and so, yeah, I
love that they're constantlylike pushing design education
out there.
So for those of you who areinterested in kind of getting
going down that rabbit hole, Ido recommend and would recommend
that correct.
I think I was now.
It was just so funny I had thisflash in this moment, because
it's not often.
This is what I love about likepodcasting is I get to sit and
(16:46):
like focus on just one topic forabout an hour, and it's just
one of those things where it'slike it's funny all the things
that come to your mind, becausehow often do I get to just sit
and talk about?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
and think about design and it's so good.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And I realized now I was really fortunate while I was
going to school in Chicago.
I was working full time and Iwas going to go to school at
night and during the day Iworked for a graphic design firm
and he went to like theinstitute of design um in like
near chicago, like studiedbauhaus, so like very kind of
(17:18):
like old old school like design,and it really really influenced
me early on, even though Ididn't end up going in like I
actually chose copywritingversus design because I was like
I just don't to at the time I'mdating myself.
It was like you had to have abig tower and a huge screen and
I couldn't just go anywhere.
But I was like I take my laptopand go right across the street
(17:40):
and even, marcus which I woulddo great place to write when
you're talking to consumers sitthere at the cafe and do my
writing.
But yeah, I've always had sucha tremendous respect for design
and designers and you know,folks like you and then my, my
old boss that I worked with justthat are constantly like living
and breathing it and sharingtheir knowledge in it.
It was just and their passionfor it.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I love getting back into it.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, this is good.
Hey, you know, I could talkabout it all day, talk about it
all day.
But you know, I hearing you sayabout copywriting oh my
goodness, over the last threeyears the value of a copywriter
is a value.
You know, I think, because Itook a class with IDEO the
storytelling for influence andit was great, and I say that
(18:27):
because it pushed to go beyondjust the words.
If that makes sense to anyone,you know what I'm saying
Absolutely does.
And as a copywriter, you havethis ability to just imagine,
you know, and bring words to apage that people like anything
they're going to critique, butyou have the ability to bring it
(18:50):
to the page and people to belike wowed or didn't think of
that you know, or put them in aworld that they never imagined
they could be put into.
You know what I'm saying.
So you know they're just thatprofession is very essential,
regardless of how fasttechnology moves.
We need the human body.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Oh my gosh, absolutely, absolutely.
I am right there with you, Iloved it, I really enjoyed it
and you're right, you get thatchance to really impact people
in such a quick way.
And I'm pretty sure, like Istill have, like some of my like
five favorite headlines, itlike always at the top of my
head, that I will forever beproud of, and it's just like
four or five words, but thosefour or five words like carried
(19:30):
entire campaigns and compelledpeople to take action and do
things, and I'm like you didthat with just a couple words.
And that's powerful, it reallyis it really is, and so, yeah, I
agree with you.
Ai is a tool we're alwaystalking about here at Together
Digital.
We're not shying away from it.
We are learning how to embraceit and use it to our benefit,
(19:52):
and that's the thing.
It's, like you know, with allof this stuff I think you know,
even in the discussion of AI for, like, photography and
videography, because I havefriends in all of those areas
and our conversation has beenthe people who will succeed and
get through this moment in timeare the ones that learn how to,
in hardness and embrace it.
Because, at the end of the day,only good copywriters good copy.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
You know, very true, designers know a good design
when they see it, and so there'sa gentleman I know, terry I
can't think of his last nameright now, but he's an amazing
30 plus year veteran of foodphotography.
Okay, and he has truly embracedai and his work.
Karen would challenge anybodyto try to guess what is ai and
what is not with him, but it'sbecause he knows like intimately
(20:37):
what food photography is, whatgood lighting set prop like all
of the details, of even how likecertain elements and pieces of
food, like I think he waslooking at something once and
he's like cheese wouldn't meltthat way and I was like what?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
how do you know?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
cheese won't melt that way, terry's like, because
I looked at enough melted cheesein 30 years to know that it
wouldn't like.
That's like, not the way thatit would look.
That's not right.
I know that.
That's the AI and so we stillneed experts in these areas to
really kind of keep that workelevated, so yeah, yeah, and
he'd have to feed that to AI.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
It wouldn't know.
You know what I'm saying?
It would.
It can't have lived experiences.
No, absolutely not.
You know what I'm saying.
We're feeding it livedexperiences.
It needs us.
Absolutely so.
Even when you go back to theresearch, that's research him
knowing that it wouldn't meltthat way, right?
So somebody has to humanly beable to position himself,
(21:35):
particularly in an industry likethat.
Food, you know, cause, we know.
Food is experience.
You know what I'm saying.
It's something that we embody,we have to take part in.
You know, in order to do so,you turn around and move into
the visual aspect of that.
If I look at it from this side,I need to be able to believe it
, meaning, I need to look at itand know, oh, I want to taste
(21:58):
that.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Right, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I want that.
It's a tricky one too.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, because I also think
even just your everyday averageconsumer, they kind of they can
look at stuff and they can lookat something and they'll know
yeah, yeah, it's not fooling usyet yeah, exactly you know.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
You always say in marketing that you know
consumers know what they know.
You know what I'm saying.
They really do don't.
Don't underestimate, no, whatthey know.
Don't try to get away withnothing don't try particularly
now.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
No, right, oh so funny, all right.
So let's talk a little bitabout your work with social art
and culture.
It's definitely, you know, it's.
It's helping create, like, deepunderstanding, community impact
.
How do you see design thinkingplaying a role in creating more
purposeful business outcomes?
We've talked about, like how itcan improve your overall
(22:48):
business outcomes and objectives, but what about purpose?
Speaker 2 (22:51):
No, it's a great question, and I always
appreciate people talking aboutsocial art and culture, because
I founded social art and cultureso it was, you know, and the
purpose of this foundation wasto fill a gap.
So, and it came about a coupleyears before I really knew about
design thinking.
But as soon as I did, socialart and culture was the first
(23:12):
place I was able to apply it,because I was able to use the
knowledge of how to reallydesign programs that were going
to be impactful.
Right, the design programs andthe social art and culture is
based on bringing artists toanother level.
And how are we gonna be able todo that?
(23:32):
You know, how are we gonna beable to make sure we did
life-changing moments withartists and the communities that
they serve?
So this had to trickle down,you know as well.
So we have spent times,sometimes a year, and I don't
know a lot of nonprofits thatspend a year in design before
they introduce something to theconstituents, the members that
(23:55):
they have.
But that's the things we'vedone.
Because of the background thatI have, I'm like we're not
moving until we know, you know,and so sometimes financially,
that's not always the greatestthing, but at the end of it all,
that's not always the greatestthing, but at the end of it all,
it ends up being the greatestthing because the joy that we
have, you know, as a me, as afounder, us as a board of
(24:15):
directors, and the input that weget from the people that go
through not only the programsthat touch the things that we do
they, they, they bring me totears, they literally do, and
that's the work that you want todo, that's the work you want,
that's the feeling that you wantto get when you bring something
(24:36):
to the table that you knowagain is really good design.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
So, yeah, that's so exciting.
Thank you for sharing it, thankyou for doing that work too,
because it is so important, youknow, know to be bringing up and
bringing in, like the nextgeneration, and elevating
artists and creativity, becauseI think sometimes it is in a
society that feels very, veryfocused on results and
productivity and, you know, justget it done, get it fat done
(24:59):
fast, sort of thing, fast andcheap kind of a thing.
yes, it is so good to kind ofget people to slow down and
reconnect with that, with theircreativity and with design, and
when you said it is a process toconnect.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
You know what I'm saying.
It makes me think of that.
When you say it is a process toconnect, it's not quick.
No, it's not quick.
And sometimes you're even in acommunity, meaning you live in
it.
You know what I'm saying.
Culturally, you may be part ofit and there's still much more
to learn in it.
You know what I'm saying.
Culturally, you may be part ofit and there's still much more
to learn.
You know.
It does not make it so that youalready are knowing of
everything.
You still have a lot to learnto truly connect because, again,
(25:34):
everybody has a different livedexperience.
Yes, you know, and you want toknow more about that when you're
really trying to designsomething great you know, and
you may have to, as we say, say,reiterate, reiterate, reiterate
, you know, until you get theright thing, so that they feel
that they are engaged, involvedand they were thought about
(25:59):
everything that you did.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Agreed, agreed, yeah, it's like they almost want to
see themselves their needs beingmet within that thing that
you've created, and so that'swhy we connect to it.
I love that that's such a greatthought, such a great thought,
all right.
So, looking at your year career, what is a commonly held belief
about design and business thatyou have that you've completely
(26:21):
changed your mind about, kind offrom where you started to where
you are now.
That's a great one.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Good questions, Amy.
I think for me what hasprobably changed is research has
to be done.
I am strongly a strategist,Absolutely.
You know I think I came in todesign really being strongest in
(26:47):
design strategy and once Ispent the time in research, you
know, sitting out at a parkobserving people in order to
design something, you know,sitting at a food hall to design
, you know, then you're like,wow, you know, and that is the
(27:08):
part now for me in businesscan't be missed, you know, can't
be skipped over.
You know has to be put into theprocess, has to be financially
put in as a line item.
You know all of that stuff hasto occur for research.
So that's another area whereyou can sometimes not have a
(27:31):
researcher at the table too.
You know, sometimes they arebrought in way too late, yeah,
and they're trying to movearound.
What is happening, you know,trying to adjust and trying to
find information because thetopic and the question has
already been formed, you know.
(27:52):
So research is, is, is, is, uh,it has to be part of everything
.
That is the shift that'sprobably happened with you over
the last three years.
Yeah, no, I would agree.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
And then the amount of you know, data that we have
at our fingertips that we cangenerate and create.
I would say, of all the things,data that we have at our
fingertips that we can generateand create.
I would say, of all the thingslike.
That's one of the things Iappreciate AI for is helping me
to analyze all of that data.
You know to help me see insightsand opportunities that maybe I
couldn't pick up with my own,like two little human eyes and
brain, you know.
(28:22):
And yeah, and I love what yousaid too about that creative and
strategy too.
I thought it was interestingwhen I first started out in the
industry.
Somebody came up to me and saidyou should work as a strategic
planner, you should be instrategy, not copywriting.
And I'm like, aren't they kindof one in the same?
Speaker 2 (28:38):
There's so much strategy.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I'm like why do we separate?
These things Like if I'm in anindustry where I'm writing to
solve a problem.
I think I need to be a littlebit of a strategic writer
personally.
Yeah, I think a lot of uscreatives get thrown into that
bank of like oh they're justcreatives, you know they're over
there, yeah, and that just getsput on it too.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
That just, yeah, gets put on it too.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
You're so right that modifier that really minimizes
their role, and so, yeah, I dolove to see now that there are
more like creative strategistsand it's like strategy is a part
of what you're looking for whenyou're hopefully looking for
content creators.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
If not you should be.
That's right.
Add it in because you're seeingtitle like content strategist.
You know now that you didn'tsee before, so someone saying
that to you just was behind thecurve.
They you know now that youdidn't see before.
So someone saying that to youjust was behind the curve.
They, you know, needed to catchup a little bit because it
really is part of the thinkingthrough process, that creative
(29:38):
thinking process with that goesinto content, goes into writing.
It is part of the process.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
It absolutely is Love it.
All right.
So you've successfullynavigated several industry
transitions, which is amazing,and I think sometimes people
feel that that's an impossiblething to do, which clearly it's
not, because you've done it.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
What role?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
has design thinking played in helping organizations
and actually not theorganizations?
You stay resilient duringchange.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Oh, wow, you know, I think that it is a tool in my
tool belt that will never goaway.
Yeah, right, so I I have alwaysbeen one to educate myself on,
on skills that will betransferable across industries,
right, and it's funny becausesometimes people say to me oh,
(30:29):
it seems like you've done alittle bit of everything.
I've just done differentindustries, you know, and I view
that as value because you know,I can go into multiple
industries and not lose myskills, right, and bring my
skills as an addition to anorganization or a client as a
(30:50):
result of being able to domultifaceted, in that it's just,
the industries have changed.
I've done healthcare, I've doneentertainment, I've done you
know what I'm saying Climate,but it's never changed.
It hasn't been design thinking,design research, the strategy,
all of those things are thingsthat are transferable skills.
Yeah, you know, they just moveacross industry.
(31:10):
So that has been extremelyhelpful to me and I've been
purposeful in going afterdegrees that I know are going to
go across multiple industriesyeah, that's so smart.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
It's such a smart way to work because, at the end of
the day we've said this so manytimes on this podcast is that no
career is linear and no one jobis forever.
And then we have a lot of womenwho are being impacted right
now by layoffs, yes, and theyjust sit back and they think, oh
, I've done and been all thesethings, but what does it all
mean?
They don't often think aboutwhat's the narrative.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
What are the transferable?
Speaker 1 (31:42):
skills so that I can champion myself and position
myself.
It's like they kind of just goin I don't know, like just
almost shying away from, insteadof owning the power and the
experience that they have.
So I agree with you, I thinklook for those kind of common
through lines for you, obviously, design thinking, continuing
your education in that space,always learning and growing in
(32:03):
that space, yeah, the more typesof industry experience you've
acquired, gosh, how much betterare you now, because then all of
a sudden, like you can,especially as a creative
strategist too, which I imaginethat you very much are- yeah,
you can see like potentialcommonalities, where it's like
okay, yeah I'm over here.
In health care, yeah, and theyhave these systems.
But also in banking, yeah,there's like this thing from
(32:24):
health care that I can take andactually apply that's working
well over here in banking andit's like without that you don't
have that experience to bring.
So it's like why wouldn't youwant to hire somebody that has
cross-industry experience?
So people who are hiring, I'mtalking to you too that's right.
Don't minimize a person,especially women, please just
because they have a diverseexperience and background look
(32:46):
at it look at the whole anddon't label.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
You know what I'm saying.
Don't label it as okay, well,you don't know.
Only this you know.
Be glad for that, because itdoes.
It has also been helpful in um,lead generation and business
development.
Yeah, you know, because you'vebeen able to see the crossover
between the two and where youcan apply some things, even when
, when you're pitching, you knowa client in that particular way
(33:12):
Because, again, say, you'vebeen in health care for 35 years
and you've only been absorbedin that.
Let's cross over the differenceof the energy or climate and
how that's impacting yourhealthcare, which is starting to
happen.
Actually, that's starting tohappen Like, oh, we can't stand
(33:35):
over here.
You stand over here.
We got to stand together.
It took someone to see that.
And try, take these twoindustries and say we need to
start working together and notbe these standalone types of
things.
So don't do that to people youknow as well as they stand,
particularly with, like you said, so many people transitioning
not by choice.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Yeah, yeah, exactly Love it.
Yeah, being fresh eyeballs.
I always loved being the newkid at my company.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
I'd be like I don't know nothing.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
So I'm just going to come up with some random ideas
and I'm going to ask lots ofquestions.
But that should be us all thetime, right.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
We hope so.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, I love it All right.
So for leaders who are justbeginning to explore design
thinking as a growth strategywhat's one unexpected place?
They should start looking foropportunities to apply this.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Well, that's a great one.
So there are a couple, probably, institutions that have been
around for quite some time.
Design Management Institutewould be one.
I would say they've celebrated50 years this year.
Nice Would be a really good oneto look at.
Like I said, the Design Councilin the UK would be good.
Even if you live in the States,the United States, you still
should look at them as anothermeans of doing that.
(34:44):
And then there are, if you'rein the Washington DC area,
there's something called DesignThinking DC, and they do, you
know workshops, and all of themare interactive and engaging.
Like they put a topic out andyou discuss that topic, you work
on that topic, which is good,real time experience for people
(35:05):
as well too.
So you know, I think, andthere's're about solving
problems, and particularly, likeI said, the more complex they
(35:28):
are.
You understand that you need togather around community Most
times.
You don't want a designer whodesigns in silos.
No, you know you, you don'twant that because that's not its
purpose.
You know its purpose is for youto move further out, you know,
and particularly how you'regoing to research, how you're
going to strategize, how you'regoing to talk to people.
That's a big part of it.
(35:48):
So you don't really want adesigner that just sits in silos
and doesn't move around andhave some level of community.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.
Community is such an importantpart of that.
It keeps you connected to thosewho are passionate about what
you're passionate about.
You know it kind of it doesn't?
It's not like, especially ifit's like a healthy community.
It's not about you know, goingover one or the other.
(36:14):
It's not about competing.
It's really about thatcollective knowledge and
learning that really does makelike a huge difference in sort
of your own ability to just evenwant to show up and like make
things happen right.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
So yeah, community of a competition yes, always,
every time every time, everytime.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Now.
I love that and that'sdefinitely kind of our motto
here too, because again, I thinkit is just one of those things
when you are sharing itpassionately versus
competitively.
Yeah, it's just so differentyou know, and so it's like
people like how do you stayinformed?
And you know some people willlist, and I love that you said
community, because some peoplewill list, and I love that you
said community because somepeople will list like
publications, magazines andnewsletters, but all of that is
in isolation and then there's nocommentary.
(36:52):
There's no back and forthconversation versus when you're
in community you actually get tosit and have the conversation
and maybe just critically thinkabout it a little more
critically because you'rediscussing it versus just taking
it in and moving on to yournext thing.
So, outside of just the sheermotivation factor, you know, of
sharing passion with peopleabout certain things and nerding
(37:13):
out like we, did here on DesignToday you know it.
just it makes it such adifferent approach to that
consistent learning, and I thinkwe don't necessarily always
think of community as the answerfor that.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
And it's just like it's the answer to so much so I
love that you mentioned, likethe DC community as the answer
for that, and it's just likeit's the answer to so much so I
love that you mentioned, likethe DC community as well.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
I know we've got a few members actually that reside
in the DC area.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I'm sure they'll check itout.
Another one will be the DesignJustice Network.
Most people in the DesignJustice Network are using design
for some social cause.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Okay, I love that?
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah, they.
They created this network.
They started in 2015,formalized it in 2020 and they
set their own 10 principlesaround it as well.
I've been a member for aboutthree years now, but you talk
about robust conversation.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Oh, for sure you know , oh, yeah, definitely do.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I mean, they they really talk about.
And again, the communitysupports one another.
So there's always jobopportunities that are popping
up, that they're like oh, I'monly putting this here, you know
, and because I know that thiscommunity gets it you know, I've
seen that many times thatlanguage you know, I'm putting
it here because I know thiscommunity you're gonna
understand exactly and we won'thave to go through this process
(38:29):
of do you understand it, becauseyou'll be coming from this
particular community.
So the Design Justice Network isa really, really great network.
I instantly went into it.
I felt like they were holdingspace for me.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Oh, that's so good.
That is so good.
Yeah, absolutely, I'm going tocheck it out no-transcript
(39:16):
exists.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
We still have to pay it forward.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Definitely All right.
My last question that I havefor you before we go into the
power round and then I'll alsocheck with our live listening
audience to see if they have anyquestions is we've talked a
little bit already aboutcreative technology and how it's
continuing to evolve.
How do you see the relationshipbetween design thinking and
business strategy evolving inthe next few years?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Ooh, I think the biggest thing is, yeah,
technology is going to play abig part in it.
It really is.
People are going to have to.
If they're resistant to it andI've wrote about this many times
they're going to need to startto embrace it.
It's how you embrace it right,so it there's going to be a cost
factor um to it as well,because these tools some of them
are in beta, yeah, you know,right now, and and willing to do
(40:05):
a little more negotiation withprice um, some of them are
moving so fast you're going tohave to figure out how to get
the cost paid in, because theconsumer and we are consumers of
it are going to latch on sofast that they're not going to
have to negotiate.
So I think technology is goingto be a big part of business for
(40:26):
those who may be smaller atthat point, not the big
corporations, you know they'regoing to have to look at, even
if they don't have a chieftechnology officer, they're
going to have to have somebodyin place to understand and keep
up with what's going um, so thatthey're able to not get left
(40:48):
behind.
Because I think that thedigital divide is going to widen
yes, um, it is not just goingto widen amongst people in their
home.
Sure, it's going to widenwithin business and small
businesses in particular, um,and solo entrepreneurs who don't
necessarily have the revenue,sometimes not the education as
(41:09):
well, to be prepared to set abusiness up structurally, to be
ready for the level oftechnology that is going.
It's just going to move rapid.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, you were so right, karen.
It's such a small businessadvantage.
So, for those of you who do runand own and operate small
businesses, it's such a smallbusiness advantage.
So, for those of you who do runand own and operate small
businesses, like if you can bean early adopter be an early
adopter, it's going to let youone person, three people,
however many you've got worklike five, 10 people and, like
you said, these behemothcompanies that you know again
have a lot more not a lot moreat stake, but I guess, like they
(41:42):
have a lot more rigor andbureaucracy and layers and legal
that is really holding themback from being able to jump on
it and like leverage it.
You are so right and it's funnythat this is coming up, because
it's come up often, so often.
Lately, I just launched acoaching practice on coachingcom
Thanks.
(42:03):
And I was.
It was all about authenticleadership, finding your
authentic leadership voice.
I want to help these women whoare looking a little dead in the
eyes, to just really step intotheir own form of executive
presence and but also in that,talking to some of my small
business owner friends, being indigital and an early adopter
for a lot of technologies likeautomation and AI and other
(42:25):
backend platforms, they're alllike you need to add this to
your coaching offerings and Iwas like I would love to,
because it is.
It is like a, it's like rocketfuel for a business where you
can automate and make verydaunting tasks for my friends
who own like catering businesseswaxing companies, roofing
companies like be able tooperate like they're 10 years
(42:48):
ahead of things, with just alittle bit of tech.
So I right, that was a greatanswer, karen.
I can't, I can't.
I could not agree enough withyou.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
No, I appreciate that .
I really do, because I'm likeyou know you.
You could easily have fear.
You know what I'm saying.
The not easy part is youactually leap it in.
You know what I'm saying andactually embracing it and
understanding how does itbenefit your business?
How do you, as a leader, beginto grow or scale, depending on
(43:24):
what point you're at yourbusiness as a result of
technology?
A lot of times we're at yourbusiness as a result of
technology.
A lot of times we're looking atfrom the side of okay, how do
we gain more money or how do weget more clients?
But technology is going to belike that other part of business
as we move forward.
I mean it is now.
It's just like I don't thinkenough conversations are being
had about it.
(43:44):
So I appreciate the question.
I just don't think enoughconversations to be had about,
particularly again in smallbusinesses.
Like how are we equipping smallbusinesses with technology
strategies so that they can bearound much longer?
You know.
And exactly, and because we justcut a lot of jobs in the Small
Business Administration and theIRS just today cut their small
(44:09):
business and so entrepreneurpeople.
You know who's going to help us.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
We need it more than ever, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
So add it to your coaching practice.
I will.
Yes, ma'am, I will.
Well, and it's like smallbusinesses.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
I think I can't remember the exact stat they
create over 50% of the jobs inthe country Am.
I right Like we can't afford tolose them, and small businesses
train.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
They're willing to invest in people they usually
hire within the neighborhoodsand communities in which they
live.
You know this is important.
Yeah, agreed, it's important,agreed.
I love this conversation andour little bonus message here
for our small businesses.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
You know this is important.
Yeah, agreed, agreed.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
I love this conversation and our little
bonus message here for our smallbusinesses we love you all.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
All right.
Well, let's pivot over into ourpower round.
So these are some fun quickquestions for us.
To kind of wrap it up, I'llkeep an eye on the chat.
You all can connect with Karenas well.
There's a LinkedIn link upthere for her if you want to
connect.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yes, please do.
Always happy to connect.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
I love it, and then we'll jump into these questions
before we wrap things up.
All right, what is your go-tocreative unblocking ritual when
you feel stuck?
Speaker 2 (45:17):
What do you do?
Oh, that's a good one.
I'm a weaver.
A lot of people don't know that?
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Oh, that's so cool.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
I will weave or I'll pick up some needles and I'm
going to knit.
And I zoned out.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
I love it, that is so good, that is so good.
Oh, I never could get the hangof knitting.
I don't know why I gotcrocheting Fine.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Okay, okay, all right .
Speaker 1 (45:36):
I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
I don't know if it's like easier or what, or just the
way Awesome.
I have to take a look at someof your pieces later.
Yes, yes, that's so fun.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
That unnecessary creativity is a great, great
block, I think like adultcoloring.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
I was looking at you for a while.
All that stuff really does kindof help your brain sort of go
into a different place.
Yeah, you need to decompress,yeah, you need to Create people
as a creative and I definitelyconsider myself that you need an
opportunity to rest your mindso that you can continue to
create.
If you're on autopilot likethat nine times out of 10,
(46:15):
you're really not getting thebest out of who you are.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
No, exactly, Rest is so important.
So again, big note there tothose who are on creative teams
fostering creative teams, youknow, leading creative teams.
Yeah, they need that.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Yeah, you know leading creative teams.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Yeah, they need that.
Yeah, Love it.
All right.
What's one unexpected object?
Speaker 2 (46:33):
that inspires your design thinking.
Oh, that is a great question.
An object, oh wow.
What comes to mind is a pencil.
I love it, I have been writingpencil for the last seven months
.
Yeah, and not in pen.
It does something for me,that's interesting I love that
(46:56):
it does something for me, and itmakes me not only because the
writing makes me remember.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
But I think the medium of a pencil allows for
sketching.
Yeah, it allows for justimpromptu doodling, you know.
So it's a great question, butit's the pencil I love it.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
That's a great answer , and the other thing I like
that is I feel like it allowsfor mistakes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
I can embrace too, you know.
So it does.
I get excited to take noteswith a pencil and not a pen.
It's been like seven, eightmonths.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yeah, that's so funny .
You might have me.
I might be another convertright behind you.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Because I have all pens at my desk.
Everything's so permanent.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
But I love sketching too, Because that's another good
kind of like mind, almostmindless creative activity right
Like doodling is actually verygood for our brains.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
It's very myself, very myself.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
This has been so fun, karen.
All right, I got this one lastquestion and then we'll wrap it
up if we don't have anythingelse from our listening audience
.
Okay, all right.
I would love for you to finishthe sentence Good design is like
good coffee, because Gooddesign is like good coffee,
because it energizes youthroughout your day.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
I love it.
It does it does.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
I hope you all move into the rest of the day and the
weekend just not taking designfor granted.
Look around, see where you, nowthat you know a little bit more
about design thinking, what itis, how it works, you know
Karen's given us some great tipsand resources and places we can
go to like learn and dig inmore.
But yeah, once you kind ofunlock the idea of design
thinking, it's kind of hard toput it away because it's so
(48:37):
useful.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Very true, Amy, Great point yeah absolutely All right
, karen.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Well, it was so fun talking to you and looking so
forward to your masterclass thatwe've got coming up.
We'll be sure to share thatinformation in our Slack to our
members Everyone.
Thank you all so much forjoining us today.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
It's always a good way to endthe week when we do this.
So thank you so much for takingthe time to tune in and we hope
to see you all next week.
Until then, keep asking, keepgiving and keep growing.
Hello everyone and welcome to our weekly power
lounge.
This is your place to hearauthentic conversations from
those who have power to share.
My name is Amy Vaughn and I amthe owner and chief empowerment
officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who choose toshare their knowledge, power
and connections.
You can join the movement attogetherindigitalcom, and today
(00:31):
we are joined by someone who istransforming how businesses
think about implementing design.
Karen Baker is the managingowner of Seven Concepts Inc and
has spent 26 years providingdesign thinking that isn't just
about aesthetics.
It's a powerful engine forbusiness growth.
Named by Forbes as one of threewomen breaking the wait it
(00:52):
might've been not three, itmight've been a year there that
got lost being noted as a womanby Forbes who was breaking the
glass ceiling in male-dominatedtech industry, karen has been
instrumental in reshaping howorganizations like Pernod
Richard and Think Local First DCapproach innovation.
She brings a unique perspectiveon turning creativity into the
(01:14):
competitive advantage, and weare thrilled to have her here
with us to share her insightswith our community.
Welcome, karen.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Excited to be here.
Hey everybody, good to see you,amy, as always, good to see you
too.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
And we've got a future masterclass coming up
with you as well, it's great,our last two podcast guests have
been masterclass, futuremasterclass facilitators too.
So you know, if you can't getenough and you need some more,
Karen, you can join us for thatas well.
So we're excited for that,Karen, and again, just excited
to hear your perspective andview on all things design and
(01:49):
design thinking.
You've been a champion for thatfor over two decades and I'm
really curious what first drewyou to see design as more than
just a creative tool but anactual catalyst for business
transformation?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
That is such a great question.
It really took me to go toSavannah College of Art and
Design and get my master's indesign management, and it took
someone else to see in me thatthis was a career path for me.
A recruiter from SCAD saw myinformation for something else I
had applied for anothermaster's degree and hit me and
(02:23):
said I think this would be agreat opportunity for me for you
to come into.
So she sat with me here in DCand went through everything.
I had no idea about designthinking at the time, didn't
know anything about themethodology, and she was like
this is an opportunity for youto advance yourself in business,
you know, and in your career tolearn a new skill.
She was absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I love it, and what a way to pay it forward to see
that potential in somebody andthen just go right forward and
let them know.
Love that and I love SCAD.
I worked for a video marketingcompany where we did a lot of
animations.
Oh yeah, we did some recruitingtrips and we got to go down
there and what an amazing campusand school and such brilliant
(03:04):
students.
I was jealous.
I went to an art college but itwas in Chicago and it was
nothing like SCAD.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
But I loved it there.
Well, you know, scad is a youngschool, so they have an
opportunity to we talk aboutinnovation, to be innovative
because they are so young, sothey keep, you know, trying new
things.
Yeah, you know, and this was aprogram that was a new thing for
them too, that's so wonderful.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I would also give kudos to the uh cleveland
institute of art.
We went up there as well andthey're like, um like, not just
their interior design, but theirindustrial design program was
really cool okay I was justnerding out so hard, I was just
thinking like all of thesedifferent ways again in which
design flows through and existsin every little thing that we do
(03:48):
.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
And we just, we take it for granted so much, very
much so, very much so, I think,because we've just been taught
that it's the end and the onlything.
Creative is what you see.
It's not what you have the ideaabout in the process of
creating.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
We don't yeah, we don't see that and often don't
value it Definitely, and so Iwant to dig into that a little
bit more too, in how your workwith organizations across public
, private, academic sectorsbecause you've really helped
span them all what's been one ofthe more surprising ways that
you've seen design thinking helpwith business growth.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
You know there are a couple.
One I wasn't involved with, butI'll still mention it the
Smithsonian actually used designthinking and they used it with
their team in order to createbetter opportunities in
programming with nonprofitorganizations as an opportunity
(04:47):
to research and strategizebefore you just go putting a
program into your organizationthat also then goes into the
community as well.
And I think Local First was agood opportunity for me to do
that over the four years ofcontinuing to create something
new.
What is the need?
And then let's look at whythere's a need and then let's
come up with a program that'sgoing to fulfill that gap,
(05:07):
that's going to give people whatthey need, you know.
Then the business side.
You know an opportunity to doit in banking, which was really
exciting, you know, to meet witha marketing director, to meet
with the person who'sresponsible for banking in the
community and get their feedback, and out of that came a new
banking program Wow.
So it was a new banking programfor startups that didn't exist
(05:28):
before, and we made some tweaksto it to ensure that we could
again get more people into theinstitution as well.
But that was design.
We went through that entireprocess, you know of mapping
journey, mapping empathy, youknow, talking through interviews
, all of that stuff to create abanking program, and those are
the things that people don'tknow are happening when you do
(05:49):
design, on design thinking inparticular.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, let's pause for that.
To kind of get to that Cause.
I think you know most of ourmembers and listeners are pretty
astute in like the space ofdigital advertising, marketing,
design, um.
But I just also realized that,like I was probably six years
into my career in an agencybefore I even heard the term
design thinking, and so I wantto remind our live listeners you
(06:12):
all can jump into the chat, askquestions if you have them.
We'd love to hear them.
But I want to back up for asecond for those of our
listeners who maybe don't know.
You can talk about design beingthe end product.
How would you define designthinking?
Because you alluded to somesteps there, but how do we paint
that picture for our listeningaudience?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, that's a great question and a good thing to
actually speak about, becausepeople have taken design
thinking as a method.
It's a methodology, first ofall.
So people are clear it's amethodology, because I've had
people ask well, what does it do, or is it a practice, or is it,
is it a theory?
It's not a theory, it's amethodology.
(06:49):
So, and the methodology isbirthed out of the design
council in the UK, so they usewhat it's like a five diamond
system, and so there's a processyou go through with ideation,
visualization, you go throughplanning, implementation and
execution, so there's somethings that are very similar.
People look at agile as one.
However, design thinking is wayahead and came before that, and
(07:13):
so that is the process that yougo through.
When you're bringing a product,a program, a business that
you're designing into existence,those are the things that you
go through to get there.
So those, those are methodologypractices that you use.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
I love it.
That's great.
Yes, I recall when I learnedabout it it was from a woman who
had interned and then gottenhired into our agency and she
kind of took us through thatsteps and we did a practice of
like I think it was likebuilding and making like a
little purse out of paper and wewere trying to solve the
problem and it was such a greatkind of contextual way and
hands-on way for us to learn.
It has always stayed with me andthen I am super proud.
(07:49):
I got to give her a shout outin case she's listening.
Caitlin ended up.
Now she's at ideo, which is,like, known for their design
thinking right, also proud ofher and the work she's done.
So anyhow, yeah, another greatcompany to follow if you're
interested in like the designthinking and design methodology.
Yeah, so you have applied thisacross corporate giants to
(08:09):
non-profit organizations, soeveryone can benefit from this.
Yes, how does your approach todesign driven changes shift
between these differentenvironments?
Do they change or do you modifythem based on where?
Whoever you're consulting for?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
that's a great question question, and I'll go
back when you said the problemsolve.
That's the purpose of designthinking is about problem
solving.
You go in.
It's how complex the problem is, and I think that answers your
question.
It really depends on howcomplex it is as to if there's
any pieces within themethodology that we may not have
to spend as much time in iswhat happens.
(08:45):
So you know, if you're talkingabout health equity, you know
the work that we did withAmerican Diabetes Association
when I was at Boathouse.
That was complex.
You know, when we're talkingabout looking at mindset of
those who are people living withtype two diabetes and why
they're not talking to theirfamilies or why they're not
getting the patient educationthat they need, those are really
(09:07):
complex problems.
So we were in research formonths, you know, talking to
people, going through medicalconferences, trying to make sure
that we fully understood enoughbefore we even got into the
space of designing anything.
You know we were in thatparticular area of research,
which is again part of designthinking.
So it really depends on howcomplex the problem is as to how
(09:30):
much you spend in each stepwhen you're looking at design as
well, too, because you want tobe able to measure it.
You want to know that there'sgreat outcomes in anything that
you do with design.
It's good design, good design.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
No, exactly, yeah, Just thoughtful, intentional,
purposeful.
I think that's what I've alwaysloved about our industry and
what we do is like I've alwaysbeen creative, but I love using
my creativity to solve problems.
Yes, I wish I could just makeart for the sake of art and feel
satisfied, and sometimes I dobut it's like more so.
I just really love beingcreative and solving problems,
(10:04):
and that's.
I think what I've always lovedabout design thinking as well.
You know, for a lot of ourmembers within the Together
Digital organization, a lot ofthem are working in educating
and really fighting for theability to elevate creative
thinking within theirorganizations, especially if
maybe they're in-house and notwithin an agency or serving
clients that are not, you know,a creative type of company.
(10:26):
What are some strategies thatyou found most effective when
advocating for design seat?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
when it comes to the strategy, yeah, the biggest
thing is advocating to have aseat at that table, because
often you don't have a seat atthe table, I think.
I've found more designers in mycareer that don't have a seat
at the table from the beginning.
Everything is brought to themafter decisions are made and
they have thoughts, they haveexpertise.
(10:55):
Some things that are decided inthe strategy phase won't work
when you try to be in a planningthrough execution timeframe.
So even when you're in thevisualization standpoint, it's
an opportunity to have designersat the table bringing that
level of what you just spokeabout creativity to the
(11:17):
conversation to say this is whatI could bring and this is what
would be even better than whatwe have Now.
You gotta have diverse voices,and designers at the table
really bring a diverse voice aswell too.
So lobby for a seat at thattable to make sure that you can
bring in your expertise and youget a chance to hear firsthand
why decisions were made, becausewhen you get it at the end, you
(11:40):
don't even know why decisionswere made.
You're just following suit, youknow.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, we aren't just here to make things look pretty,
not at all.
I always say that, just that.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah, I always say that stop looking at designers
only to make things that lookgood.
Yeah, you know at the end, yeah, that's a part of it,
absolutely, but it is not theonly.
You know the level of researchthat a designer has to do.
There's quite a bit of work.
Even if they're in the graphicdesigner, even if they are an
(12:10):
artist, they still have to do alevel of research.
Creative people have to do alevel of research to bring that
work to you as well.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, and there's something.
There's nothing better than thetwo things coming together of
something that is beautifullydesigned and beautifully
functional.
That's right, right that's right, it is the best feeling and I
think that's what I enjoyed somuch about going through the
industrial design portion of thethe schools we talked about
because it was that it was thatfunctionality meets beauty, and
(12:39):
it was just like it feels sogenius.
It's the same thing when I goto like planned cities or like
neighborhoods that are justintentionally laid out.
It's like the aesthetic isthere, but then also the ease
and flow of use is there andit's so so critical and what
we're building and creatingacross the board, so I love it.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I love it and I love industrial design Right.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I am the same in architecture and all that stuff.
I mean it's just it really,really adds to, I think, our
quality of life Correct.
You know and we do take it forgranted.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
We do take it for granted, absolutely.
So yeah, we need our designersat the table.
I love that advice.
That's good advice.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
So bring them.
If you're not the designeryourself, bring a designer with
you early, yeah exactly yeah,with you early.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, exactly yeah, open the door to them.
You know, if you come into acompany and you find that they
are not part of thatconversation, you know have a
conversation about opening themto be part of that table.
You know, and and it's even agreat experience, you know to be
part of those conversations forthem.
You know, to it's also when youtalk about a cultural belonging
.
You know they feel like theybelong and they're not separated
(13:47):
from this leadership team.
They're inclusive in thatleadership team.
I think that's also veryimportant.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Agreed.
I don't think everybody wantsto just be the hands.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Some people do.
Don't get me wrong, I've gotpeople.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
I've worked with people that are like just give
me the thing and let me do itbut for the most part, yeah.
If you really want to bringpeople along on the journey of
what it is that you're trying tobuild and create like, you have
to involve them.
Yeah, you know they need to bebought into, and then they will
put in their best effort as wellCorrect Absolutely, absolutely.
So I'm curious what has eitherwho or what has been some
(14:24):
influences for you and how you?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Oh, that's a great question.
I think that a couple I'll saya couple people probably come to
mind more than anything.
One is a former advisor of mine, dr Leslie Noel.
She's now a dean in TorontoAwesome, that is about
(14:48):
inclusivity.
She's always big on observationand listening, you know, and so
that type of leadership mirrorsmy leadership, you know as well
, and then has been veryinstrumental, you know, in my
career as well, to elevating mythinking around design,
particularly design research,which is what I was getting my
(15:09):
doctorate in.
And so those, you know that isjust a good model you know to
follow.
I do like IDL.
I just finished a class withthem last- night, as a matter of
fact.
Yeah, so, and I've taken twoclasses with them and they
always I go in saying in twoclasses with them and they
(15:34):
always I go in saying, oh, Iknow this, but then I learn so
much more, right, you know.
So I really think that theyhave a really good model and you
know, it has been and I'm gonnabe honest, it's been debate,
you know, particularly inpedagogy.
Let me say that, um, about howmuch they have done or what they
bring, but really really whothey hire, let me say that to
instruct these classes or createthese levels of this curriculum
(15:56):
has been good for me and I'vebeen in this for a while and I
still come out learning more,you know.
So I just think they are reallya great model for education,
particularly when you just needa little bit, you know, not
necessarily a whole degree, butyou need just a little bit to
keep you kind of knowing what'sgoing on with the industry
(16:17):
staying relevant to themarketplace.
Definitely, I think that it'sextremely, you know, extremely
important as well.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
You can tell that they live and breathe it for
sure they have got such apassion for it, and so, yeah, I
love that they're constantlylike pushing design education
out there.
So for those of you who areinterested in kind of getting
going down that rabbit hole, Ido recommend and would recommend
that correct.
I think I was now.
It was just so funny I had thisflash in this moment, because
it's not often.
This is what I love about likepodcasting is I get to sit and
(16:46):
like focus on just one topic forabout an hour, and it's just
one of those things where it'slike it's funny all the things
that come to your mind, becausehow often do I get to just sit
and talk about?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
and think about design and it's so good.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And I realized now I was really fortunate while I was
going to school in Chicago.
I was working full time and Iwas going to go to school at
night and during the day Iworked for a graphic design firm
and he went to like theinstitute of design um in like
near chicago, like studiedbauhaus, so like very kind of
(17:18):
like old old school like design,and it really really influenced
me early on, even though Ididn't end up going in like I
actually chose copywritingversus design because I was like
I just don't to at the time I'mdating myself.
It was like you had to have abig tower and a huge screen and
I couldn't just go anywhere.
But I was like I take my laptopand go right across the street
(17:40):
and even, marcus which I woulddo great place to write when
you're talking to consumers sitthere at the cafe and do my
writing.
But yeah, I've always had sucha tremendous respect for design
and designers and you know,folks like you and then my, my
old boss that I worked with justthat are constantly like living
and breathing it and sharingtheir knowledge in it.
It was just and their passionfor it.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I love getting back into it.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, this is good.
Hey, you know, I could talkabout it all day, talk about it
all day.
But you know, I hearing you sayabout copywriting oh my
goodness, over the last threeyears the value of a copywriter
is a value.
You know, I think, because Itook a class with IDEO the
storytelling for influence andit was great, and I say that
(18:27):
because it pushed to go beyondjust the words.
If that makes sense to anyone,you know what I'm saying
Absolutely does.
And as a copywriter, you havethis ability to just imagine,
you know, and bring words to apage that people like anything
they're going to critique, butyou have the ability to bring it
(18:50):
to the page and people to belike wowed or didn't think of
that you know, or put them in aworld that they never imagined
they could be put into.
You know what I'm saying.
So you know they're just thatprofession is very essential,
regardless of how fasttechnology moves.
We need the human body.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Oh my gosh, absolutely, absolutely.
I am right there with you, Iloved it, I really enjoyed it
and you're right, you get thatchance to really impact people
in such a quick way.
And I'm pretty sure, like Istill have, like some of my like
five favorite headlines, itlike always at the top of my
head, that I will forever beproud of, and it's just like
four or five words, but thosefour or five words like carried
(19:30):
entire campaigns and compelledpeople to take action and do
things, and I'm like you didthat with just a couple words.
And that's powerful, it reallyis it really is, and so, yeah, I
agree with you.
Ai is a tool we're alwaystalking about here at Together
Digital.
We're not shying away from it.
We are learning how to embraceit and use it to our benefit,
(19:52):
and that's the thing.
It's, like you know, with allof this stuff I think you know,
even in the discussion of AI for, like, photography and
videography, because I havefriends in all of those areas
and our conversation has beenthe people who will succeed and
get through this moment in timeare the ones that learn how to,
in hardness and embrace it.
Because, at the end of the day,only good copywriters good copy.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
You know, very true, designers know a good design
when they see it, and so there'sa gentleman I know, terry I
can't think of his last nameright now, but he's an amazing
30 plus year veteran of foodphotography.
Okay, and he has truly embracedai and his work.
Karen would challenge anybodyto try to guess what is ai and
what is not with him, but it'sbecause he knows like intimately
(20:37):
what food photography is, whatgood lighting set prop like all
of the details, of even how likecertain elements and pieces of
food, like I think he waslooking at something once and
he's like cheese wouldn't meltthat way and I was like what?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
how do you know?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
cheese won't melt that way, terry's like, because
I looked at enough melted cheesein 30 years to know that it
wouldn't like.
That's like, not the way thatit would look.
That's not right.
I know that.
That's the AI and so we stillneed experts in these areas to
really kind of keep that workelevated, so yeah, yeah, and
he'd have to feed that to AI.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
It wouldn't know.
You know what I'm saying?
It would.
It can't have lived experiences.
No, absolutely not.
You know what I'm saying.
We're feeding it livedexperiences.
It needs us.
Absolutely so.
Even when you go back to theresearch, that's research him
knowing that it wouldn't meltthat way, right?
So somebody has to humanly beable to position himself,
(21:35):
particularly in an industry likethat.
Food, you know, cause, we know.
Food is experience.
You know what I'm saying.
It's something that we embody,we have to take part in.
You know, in order to do so,you turn around and move into
the visual aspect of that.
If I look at it from this side,I need to be able to believe it
, meaning, I need to look at itand know, oh, I want to taste
(21:58):
that.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Right, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I want that.
It's a tricky one too.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, because I also think
even just your everyday averageconsumer, they kind of they can
look at stuff and they can lookat something and they'll know
yeah, yeah, it's not fooling usyet yeah, exactly you know.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
You always say in marketing that you know
consumers know what they know.
You know what I'm saying.
They really do don't.
Don't underestimate, no, whatthey know.
Don't try to get away withnothing don't try particularly
now.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
No, right, oh so funny, all right.
So let's talk a little bitabout your work with social art
and culture.
It's definitely, you know, it's.
It's helping create, like, deepunderstanding, community impact
.
How do you see design thinkingplaying a role in creating more
purposeful business outcomes?
We've talked about, like how itcan improve your overall
(22:48):
business outcomes and objectives, but what about purpose?
Speaker 2 (22:51):
No, it's a great question, and I always
appreciate people talking aboutsocial art and culture, because
I founded social art and cultureso it was, you know, and the
purpose of this foundation wasto fill a gap.
So, and it came about a coupleyears before I really knew about
design thinking.
But as soon as I did, socialart and culture was the first
(23:12):
place I was able to apply it,because I was able to use the
knowledge of how to reallydesign programs that were going
to be impactful.
Right, the design programs andthe social art and culture is
based on bringing artists toanother level.
And how are we gonna be able todo that?
(23:32):
You know, how are we gonna beable to make sure we did
life-changing moments withartists and the communities that
they serve?
So this had to trickle down,you know as well.
So we have spent times,sometimes a year, and I don't
know a lot of nonprofits thatspend a year in design before
they introduce something to theconstituents, the members that
(23:55):
they have.
But that's the things we'vedone.
Because of the background thatI have, I'm like we're not
moving until we know, you know,and so sometimes financially,
that's not always the greatestthing, but at the end of it all,
that's not always the greatestthing, but at the end of it all,
it ends up being the greatestthing because the joy that we
have, you know, as a me, as afounder, us as a board of
(24:15):
directors, and the input that weget from the people that go
through not only the programsthat touch the things that we do
they, they, they bring me totears, they literally do, and
that's the work that you want todo, that's the work you want,
that's the feeling that you wantto get when you bring something
(24:36):
to the table that you knowagain is really good design.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
So, yeah, that's so exciting.
Thank you for sharing it, thankyou for doing that work too,
because it is so important, youknow, know to be bringing up and
bringing in, like the nextgeneration, and elevating
artists and creativity, becauseI think sometimes it is in a
society that feels very, veryfocused on results and
productivity and, you know, justget it done, get it fat done
(24:59):
fast, sort of thing, fast andcheap kind of a thing.
yes, it is so good to kind ofget people to slow down and
reconnect with that, with theircreativity and with design, and
when you said it is a process toconnect.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
You know what I'm saying.
It makes me think of that.
When you say it is a process toconnect, it's not quick.
No, it's not quick.
And sometimes you're even in acommunity, meaning you live in
it.
You know what I'm saying.
Culturally, you may be part ofit and there's still much more
to learn in it.
You know what I'm saying.
Culturally, you may be part ofit and there's still much more
to learn.
You know.
It does not make it so that youalready are knowing of
everything.
You still have a lot to learnto truly connect because, again,
(25:34):
everybody has a different livedexperience.
Yes, you know, and you want toknow more about that when you're
really trying to designsomething great you know, and
you may have to, as we say, say,reiterate, reiterate, reiterate
, you know, until you get theright thing, so that they feel
that they are engaged, involvedand they were thought about
(25:59):
everything that you did.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Agreed, agreed, yeah, it's like they almost want to
see themselves their needs beingmet within that thing that
you've created, and so that'swhy we connect to it.
I love that that's such a greatthought, such a great thought,
all right.
So, looking at your year career, what is a commonly held belief
about design and business thatyou have that you've completely
(26:21):
changed your mind about, kind offrom where you started to where
you are now.
That's a great one.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Good questions, Amy.
I think for me what hasprobably changed is research has
to be done.
I am strongly a strategist,Absolutely.
You know I think I came in todesign really being strongest in
(26:47):
design strategy and once Ispent the time in research, you
know, sitting out at a parkobserving people in order to
design something, you know,sitting at a food hall to design
, you know, then you're like,wow, you know, and that is the
(27:08):
part now for me in businesscan't be missed, you know, can't
be skipped over.
You know has to be put into theprocess, has to be financially
put in as a line item.
You know all of that stuff hasto occur for research.
So that's another area whereyou can sometimes not have a
(27:31):
researcher at the table too.
You know, sometimes they arebrought in way too late, yeah,
and they're trying to movearound.
What is happening, you know,trying to adjust and trying to
find information because thetopic and the question has
already been formed, you know.
(27:52):
So research is, is, is, is, uh,it has to be part of everything
.
That is the shift that'sprobably happened with you over
the last three years.
Yeah, no, I would agree.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
And then the amount of you know, data that we have
at our fingertips that we cangenerate and create.
I would say, of all the things,data that we have at our
fingertips that we can generateand create.
I would say, of all the thingslike.
That's one of the things Iappreciate AI for is helping me
to analyze all of that data.
You know to help me see insightsand opportunities that maybe I
couldn't pick up with my own,like two little human eyes and
brain, you know.
(28:22):
And yeah, and I love what yousaid too about that creative and
strategy too.
I thought it was interestingwhen I first started out in the
industry.
Somebody came up to me and saidyou should work as a strategic
planner, you should be instrategy, not copywriting.
And I'm like, aren't they kindof one in the same?
Speaker 2 (28:38):
There's so much strategy.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I'm like why do we separate?
These things Like if I'm in anindustry where I'm writing to
solve a problem.
I think I need to be a littlebit of a strategic writer
personally.
Yeah, I think a lot of uscreatives get thrown into that
bank of like oh they're justcreatives, you know they're over
there, yeah, and that just getsput on it too.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
That just, yeah, gets put on it too.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
You're so right that modifier that really minimizes
their role, and so, yeah, I dolove to see now that there are
more like creative strategistsand it's like strategy is a part
of what you're looking for whenyou're hopefully looking for
content creators.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
If not you should be.
That's right.
Add it in because you're seeingtitle like content strategist.
You know now that you didn'tsee before, so someone saying
that to you just was behind thecurve.
They you know now that youdidn't see before.
So someone saying that to youjust was behind the curve.
They, you know, needed to catchup a little bit because it
really is part of the thinkingthrough process, that creative
(29:38):
thinking process with that goesinto content, goes into writing.
It is part of the process.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
It absolutely is Love it.
All right.
So you've successfullynavigated several industry
transitions, which is amazing,and I think sometimes people
feel that that's an impossiblething to do, which clearly it's
not, because you've done it.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
What role?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
has design thinking played in helping organizations
and actually not theorganizations?
You stay resilient duringchange.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Oh, wow, you know, I think that it is a tool in my
tool belt that will never goaway.
Yeah, right, so I I have alwaysbeen one to educate myself on,
on skills that will betransferable across industries,
right, and it's funny becausesometimes people say to me oh,
(30:29):
it seems like you've done alittle bit of everything.
I've just done differentindustries, you know, and I view
that as value because you know,I can go into multiple
industries and not lose myskills, right, and bring my
skills as an addition to anorganization or a client as a
(30:50):
result of being able to domultifaceted, in that it's just,
the industries have changed.
I've done healthcare, I've doneentertainment, I've done you
know what I'm saying Climate,but it's never changed.
It hasn't been design thinking,design research, the strategy,
all of those things are thingsthat are transferable skills.
Yeah, you know, they just moveacross industry.
(31:10):
So that has been extremelyhelpful to me and I've been
purposeful in going afterdegrees that I know are going to
go across multiple industriesyeah, that's so smart.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
It's such a smart way to work because, at the end of
the day we've said this so manytimes on this podcast is that no
career is linear and no one jobis forever.
And then we have a lot of womenwho are being impacted right
now by layoffs, yes, and theyjust sit back and they think, oh
, I've done and been all thesethings, but what does it all
mean?
They don't often think aboutwhat's the narrative.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
What are the transferable?
Speaker 1 (31:42):
skills so that I can champion myself and position
myself.
It's like they kind of just goin I don't know, like just
almost shying away from, insteadof owning the power and the
experience that they have.
So I agree with you, I thinklook for those kind of common
through lines for you, obviously, design thinking, continuing
your education in that space,always learning and growing in
(32:03):
that space, yeah, the more typesof industry experience you've
acquired, gosh, how much betterare you now, because then all of
a sudden, like you can,especially as a creative
strategist too, which I imaginethat you very much are- yeah,
you can see like potentialcommonalities, where it's like
okay, yeah I'm over here.
In health care, yeah, and theyhave these systems.
But also in banking, yeah,there's like this thing from
(32:24):
health care that I can take andactually apply that's working
well over here in banking andit's like without that you don't
have that experience to bring.
So it's like why wouldn't youwant to hire somebody that has
cross-industry experience?
So people who are hiring, I'mtalking to you too that's right.
Don't minimize a person,especially women, please just
because they have a diverseexperience and background look
(32:46):
at it look at the whole anddon't label.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
You know what I'm saying.
Don't label it as okay, well,you don't know.
Only this you know.
Be glad for that, because itdoes.
It has also been helpful in um,lead generation and business
development.
Yeah, you know, because you'vebeen able to see the crossover
between the two and where youcan apply some things, even when
, when you're pitching, you knowa client in that particular way
(33:12):
Because, again, say, you'vebeen in health care for 35 years
and you've only been absorbedin that.
Let's cross over the differenceof the energy or climate and
how that's impacting yourhealthcare, which is starting to
happen.
Actually, that's starting tohappen Like, oh, we can't stand
(33:35):
over here.
You stand over here.
We got to stand together.
It took someone to see that.
And try, take these twoindustries and say we need to
start working together and notbe these standalone types of
things.
So don't do that to people youknow as well as they stand,
particularly with, like you said, so many people transitioning
not by choice.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Yeah, yeah, exactly Love it.
Yeah, being fresh eyeballs.
I always loved being the newkid at my company.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
I'd be like I don't know nothing.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
So I'm just going to come up with some random ideas
and I'm going to ask lots ofquestions.
But that should be us all thetime, right.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
We hope so.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, I love it All right.
So for leaders who are justbeginning to explore design
thinking as a growth strategywhat's one unexpected place?
They should start looking foropportunities to apply this.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Well, that's a great one.
So there are a couple, probably, institutions that have been
around for quite some time.
Design Management Institutewould be one.
I would say they've celebrated50 years this year.
Nice Would be a really good oneto look at.
Like I said, the Design Councilin the UK would be good.
Even if you live in the States,the United States, you still
should look at them as anothermeans of doing that.
(34:44):
And then there are, if you'rein the Washington DC area,
there's something called DesignThinking DC, and they do, you
know workshops, and all of themare interactive and engaging.
Like they put a topic out andyou discuss that topic, you work
on that topic, which is good,real time experience for people
(35:05):
as well too.
So you know, I think, andthere's're about solving
problems, and particularly, likeI said, the more complex they
(35:28):
are.
You understand that you need togather around community Most
times.
You don't want a designer whodesigns in silos.
No, you know you, you don'twant that because that's not its
purpose.
You know its purpose is for youto move further out, you know,
and particularly how you'regoing to research, how you're
going to strategize, how you'regoing to talk to people.
That's a big part of it.
(35:48):
So you don't really want adesigner that just sits in silos
and doesn't move around andhave some level of community.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.
Community is such an importantpart of that.
It keeps you connected to thosewho are passionate about what
you're passionate about.
You know it kind of it doesn't?
It's not like, especially ifit's like a healthy community.
It's not about you know, goingover one or the other.
(36:14):
It's not about competing.
It's really about thatcollective knowledge and
learning that really does makelike a huge difference in sort
of your own ability to just evenwant to show up and like make
things happen right.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
So yeah, community of a competition yes, always,
every time every time, everytime.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Now.
I love that and that'sdefinitely kind of our motto
here too, because again, I thinkit is just one of those things
when you are sharing itpassionately versus
competitively.
Yeah, it's just so differentyou know, and so it's like
people like how do you stayinformed?
And you know some people willlist, and I love that you said
community, because some peoplewill list, and I love that you
said community because somepeople will list like
publications, magazines andnewsletters, but all of that is
in isolation and then there's nocommentary.
(36:52):
There's no back and forthconversation versus when you're
in community you actually get tosit and have the conversation
and maybe just critically thinkabout it a little more
critically because you'rediscussing it versus just taking
it in and moving on to yournext thing.
So, outside of just the sheermotivation factor, you know, of
sharing passion with peopleabout certain things and nerding
(37:13):
out like we, did here on DesignToday you know it.
just it makes it such adifferent approach to that
consistent learning, and I thinkwe don't necessarily always
think of community as the answerfor that.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
And it's just like it's the answer to so much so I
love that you mentioned, likethe DC community as the answer
for that, and it's just likeit's the answer to so much so I
love that you mentioned, likethe DC community as well.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
I know we've got a few members actually that reside
in the DC area.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I'm sure they'll check itout.
Another one will be the DesignJustice Network.
Most people in the DesignJustice Network are using design
for some social cause.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Okay, I love that?
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah, they.
They created this network.
They started in 2015,formalized it in 2020 and they
set their own 10 principlesaround it as well.
I've been a member for aboutthree years now, but you talk
about robust conversation.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Oh, for sure you know , oh, yeah, definitely do.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I mean, they they really talk about.
And again, the communitysupports one another.
So there's always jobopportunities that are popping
up, that they're like oh, I'monly putting this here, you know
, and because I know that thiscommunity gets it you know, I've
seen that many times thatlanguage you know, I'm putting
it here because I know thiscommunity you're gonna
understand exactly and we won'thave to go through this process
(38:29):
of do you understand it, becauseyou'll be coming from this
particular community.
So the Design Justice Network isa really, really great network.
I instantly went into it.
I felt like they were holdingspace for me.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Oh, that's so good.
That is so good.
Yeah, absolutely, I'm going tocheck it out no-transcript
(39:16):
exists.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
We still have to pay it forward.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Definitely All right.
My last question that I havefor you before we go into the
power round and then I'll alsocheck with our live listening
audience to see if they have anyquestions is we've talked a
little bit already aboutcreative technology and how it's
continuing to evolve.
How do you see the relationshipbetween design thinking and
business strategy evolving inthe next few years?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Ooh, I think the biggest thing is, yeah,
technology is going to play abig part in it.
It really is.
People are going to have to.
If they're resistant to it andI've wrote about this many times
they're going to need to startto embrace it.
It's how you embrace it right,so it there's going to be a cost
factor um to it as well,because these tools some of them
are in beta, yeah, you know,right now, and and willing to do
(40:05):
a little more negotiation withprice um, some of them are
moving so fast you're going tohave to figure out how to get
the cost paid in, because theconsumer and we are consumers of
it are going to latch on sofast that they're not going to
have to negotiate.
So I think technology is goingto be a big part of business for
(40:26):
those who may be smaller atthat point, not the big
corporations, you know they'regoing to have to look at, even
if they don't have a chieftechnology officer, they're
going to have to have somebodyin place to understand and keep
up with what's going um, so thatthey're able to not get left
(40:48):
behind.
Because I think that thedigital divide is going to widen
yes, um, it is not just goingto widen amongst people in their
home.
Sure, it's going to widenwithin business and small
businesses in particular, um,and solo entrepreneurs who don't
necessarily have the revenue,sometimes not the education as
(41:09):
well, to be prepared to set abusiness up structurally, to be
ready for the level oftechnology that is going.
It's just going to move rapid.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, you were so right, karen.
It's such a small businessadvantage.
So, for those of you who do runand own and operate small
businesses, it's such a smallbusiness advantage.
So, for those of you who do runand own and operate small
businesses, like if you can bean early adopter be an early
adopter, it's going to let youone person, three people,
however many you've got worklike five, 10 people and, like
you said, these behemothcompanies that you know again
have a lot more not a lot moreat stake, but I guess, like they
(41:42):
have a lot more rigor andbureaucracy and layers and legal
that is really holding themback from being able to jump on
it and like leverage it.
You are so right and it's funnythat this is coming up, because
it's come up often, so often.
Lately, I just launched acoaching practice on coachingcom
Thanks.
(42:03):
And I was.
It was all about authenticleadership, finding your
authentic leadership voice.
I want to help these women whoare looking a little dead in the
eyes, to just really step intotheir own form of executive
presence and but also in that,talking to some of my small
business owner friends, being indigital and an early adopter
for a lot of technologies likeautomation and AI and other
(42:25):
backend platforms, they're alllike you need to add this to
your coaching offerings and Iwas like I would love to,
because it is.
It is like a, it's like rocketfuel for a business where you
can automate and make verydaunting tasks for my friends
who own like catering businesseswaxing companies, roofing
companies like be able tooperate like they're 10 years
(42:48):
ahead of things, with just alittle bit of tech.
So I right, that was a greatanswer, karen.
I can't, I can't.
I could not agree enough withyou.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
No, I appreciate that .
I really do, because I'm likeyou know you.
You could easily have fear.
You know what I'm saying.
The not easy part is youactually leap it in.
You know what I'm saying andactually embracing it and
understanding how does itbenefit your business?
How do you, as a leader, beginto grow or scale, depending on
(43:24):
what point you're at yourbusiness as a result of
technology?
A lot of times we're at yourbusiness as a result of
technology.
A lot of times we're looking atfrom the side of okay, how do
we gain more money or how do weget more clients?
But technology is going to belike that other part of business
as we move forward.
I mean it is now.
It's just like I don't thinkenough conversations are being
had about it.
(43:44):
So I appreciate the question.
I just don't think enoughconversations to be had about,
particularly again in smallbusinesses.
Like how are we equipping smallbusinesses with technology
strategies so that they can bearound much longer?
You know.
And exactly, and because we justcut a lot of jobs in the Small
Business Administration and theIRS just today cut their small
(44:09):
business and so entrepreneurpeople.
You know who's going to help us.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
We need it more than ever, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
So add it to your coaching practice.
I will.
Yes, ma'am, I will.
Well, and it's like smallbusinesses.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
I think I can't remember the exact stat they
create over 50% of the jobs inthe country Am.
I right Like we can't afford tolose them, and small businesses
train.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
They're willing to invest in people they usually
hire within the neighborhoodsand communities in which they
live.
You know this is important.
Yeah, agreed, it's important,agreed.
I love this conversation andour little bonus message here
for our small businesses.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
You know this is important.
Yeah, agreed, agreed.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
I love this conversation and our little
bonus message here for our smallbusinesses we love you all.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
All right.
Well, let's pivot over into ourpower round.
So these are some fun quickquestions for us.
To kind of wrap it up, I'llkeep an eye on the chat.
You all can connect with Karenas well.
There's a LinkedIn link upthere for her if you want to
connect.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yes, please do.
Always happy to connect.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
I love it, and then we'll jump into these questions
before we wrap things up.
All right, what is your go-tocreative unblocking ritual when
you feel stuck?
Speaker 2 (45:17):
What do you do?
Oh, that's a good one.
I'm a weaver.
A lot of people don't know that?
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Oh, that's so cool.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
I will weave or I'll pick up some needles and I'm
going to knit.
And I zoned out.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
I love it, that is so good, that is so good.
Oh, I never could get the hangof knitting.
I don't know why I gotcrocheting Fine.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Okay, okay, all right .
Speaker 1 (45:36):
I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
I don't know if it's like easier or what, or just the
way Awesome.
I have to take a look at someof your pieces later.
Yes, yes, that's so fun.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
That unnecessary creativity is a great, great
block, I think like adultcoloring.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
I was looking at you for a while.
All that stuff really does kindof help your brain sort of go
into a different place.
Yeah, you need to decompress,yeah, you need to Create people
as a creative and I definitelyconsider myself that you need an
opportunity to rest your mindso that you can continue to
create.
If you're on autopilot likethat nine times out of 10,
(46:15):
you're really not getting thebest out of who you are.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
No, exactly, Rest is so important.
So again, big note there tothose who are on creative teams
fostering creative teams, youknow, leading creative teams.
Yeah, they need that.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Yeah, you know leading creative teams.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Yeah, they need that.
Yeah, Love it.
All right.
What's one unexpected object?
Speaker 2 (46:33):
that inspires your design thinking.
Oh, that is a great question.
An object, oh wow.
What comes to mind is a pencil.
I love it, I have been writingpencil for the last seven months
.
Yeah, and not in pen.
It does something for me,that's interesting I love that
(46:56):
it does something for me, and itmakes me not only because the
writing makes me remember.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
But I think the medium of a pencil allows for
sketching.
Yeah, it allows for justimpromptu doodling, you know.
So it's a great question, butit's the pencil I love it.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
That's a great answer , and the other thing I like
that is I feel like it allowsfor mistakes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
I can embrace too, you know.
So it does.
I get excited to take noteswith a pencil and not a pen.
It's been like seven, eightmonths.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yeah, that's so funny .
You might have me.
I might be another convertright behind you.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Because I have all pens at my desk.
Everything's so permanent.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
But I love sketching too, Because that's another good
kind of like mind, almostmindless creative activity right
Like doodling is actually verygood for our brains.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
It's very myself, very myself.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
This has been so fun, karen.
All right, I got this one lastquestion and then we'll wrap it
up if we don't have anythingelse from our listening audience
.
Okay, all right.
I would love for you to finishthe sentence Good design is like
good coffee, because Gooddesign is like good coffee,
because it energizes youthroughout your day.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
I love it.
It does it does.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
I hope you all move into the rest of the day and the
weekend just not taking designfor granted.
Look around, see where you, nowthat you know a little bit more
about design thinking, what itis, how it works, you know
Karen's given us some great tipsand resources and places we can
go to like learn and dig inmore.
But yeah, once you kind ofunlock the idea of design
thinking, it's kind of hard toput it away because it's so
(48:37):
useful.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Very true, Amy, Great point yeah absolutely All right
, karen.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Well, it was so fun talking to you and looking so
forward to your masterclass thatwe've got coming up.
We'll be sure to share thatinformation in our Slack to our
members Everyone.
Thank you all so much forjoining us today.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
It's always a good way to endthe week when we do this.
So thank you so much for takingthe time to tune in and we hope
to see you all next week.
Until then, keep asking, keepgiving and keep growing.
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