Digital Marketing, How to Spot a Fraud

Are your digital marketing efforts falling short of expectations? In this episode of The Power Lounge, host Amy Vaughan welcomes Anna Covert, founder of Hawaii’s largest digital marketing firm and author of The Covert Code. Anna shares actionable strategies to tackle online advertising fraud, precisely target your audience, and maximize your marketing ROI.

A true entrepreneur, Covert also operates several other marketing and technology businesses, including reactium.io, which is currently being used by enterprise organizations worldwide with contributors from Apple, Microsoft, and IBM.

Listen in to uncover insights that will help you refine your digital strategy and ensure every dollar you invest drives meaningful results for your business.

Connect with Anna Covert:
LinkedIn
Instagram
Websites: Covert Communication & Anna Covert

Get Anna’s book: The Covert Code – Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing HERE.

KeyTakeaways:
Anna Covert's Journey into Digital Marketing
Authenticity in Digital Marketing
Targeting the Right Audience
Trust and Smart Bidding Practices
Dealing with Digital Marketing Fraud
Search Marketing Insights
Influence of Remarketing in Digital Marketing Success
Social Media Marketing: Organic vs Paid
Common Client Concerns in Digital Marketing

Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction
02:11 - "Power Lounge: Digital Marketing Insights"
05:30 - "Together Marketing Rescue Podcast"
15:28 - Ecological Impact of Digital Advertising
20:57 - Understanding Conversions and Value
26:20 - Managing Marketing Bids Efficiently
30:09 - Google's Financial Struggles Explained
35:26 - Ad Targeting via Finger ID Mapping
39:57 - The Need for Marketing Education
43:49 - Questioning Digital Advertising Effectiveness
48:24 - "From SunPower Client to Direct Partnership"
53:20 - Navigating Digital Media's Complexities
58:53 - "Pay to Play Marketing"
01:03:01 - Outro

Quotes:
"Digital marketing is about meaningful connections. Allocate your budget smartly and let transparency build trust."- Amy Vaughn

"Technology opens doors for billions. True success comes from authenticity and ethics."- Anna Covert

Connect with the host Amy Vaughan:
LinkedIn
Power Lounge Podcast
Learn more about Together Digital and consider joining the movement by visiting togetherindigital.com.

Support the show

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello everyone and welcome to our weekly Power
Lounge.
This is your place to hearauthentic conversations from
those who have power to share.
My name is Amy Vaughn and I amthe owner and chief empowerment
officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who work indigital and choose to share
their knowledge, power andconnections.
Learn more about us and jointhe movement at

(00:30):
togetherindigitalcom.
Everyone, please help me.
Welcome today, anna Covert.
She is joining us from, as wewere just talking before, we
hopped online, hawaii, where sheruns Covert Communications, the
state's largest marketing firm.
And now, if you're like mostbusiness owners, you've probably
asked yourself are my digitalads actually working?

(00:50):
Am I reaching the right people?
Is the website reallydelivering on what my customers
need?
For those of us who are in thedigital space and marketing and
who are listening, members ornot, we know these questions
because, again, we get thescrews put to us right when it
comes to reporting and the dataand the ROI or the ROAS or
whatever term they like to use.

(01:12):
Well, these are the questionsthat Anna spent her career
trying to help businesses answer, and what makes today's session
particularly special is thatAnna is going to share the same
high impact strategies that shedetails in her bestselling book,
the Covert Code.
We'll drop the link in the shownotes.
She has worked with hundreds ofbusinesses, from local startups

(01:32):
to Fortune 500 companies, andshe's developed a remarkably
clear approach to something thatoften feels pretty daunting and
overwhelming, especially for usbusiness owners making digital
marketing actually work for yourbusiness.
So we've got a packed hourahead with lots of questions,
but, as always, live listeners.
We would love it if you wouldshare any questions that you

(01:54):
have in the chat and we will getthose asked, but we are going
to break down everything fromfraud prevention to creating
smart budgets that make sensefor your business.
She's going to help show youhow to take back control of your
digital strategy and make surethat every dollar that you spend
is working for you.
Anna, thanks for joining us inthe Power Lounge.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Thanks so much for inviting me.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Absolutely, absolutely.
We're really glad to have youhere with us, excited to have
this conversation Kind of sortof wishing it was in person but
you have helped to buildHawaii's largest digital
marketing firm.
What sparked your journey intodigital marketing and what made
you decide to share thestrategies that you've shared,
which are a little unorthodoxright In the covert code, rather

(02:32):
than keeping them trade secrets?

Speaker 2 (02:35):
That's a really great question.
I think it really starts muchyounger in my life, so I'm going
to take you on a little journey.
So my story echoes out of many.
I was a girl born in the early80s, the year just before the
Apple computer and that's 1983,for those of you trying to do
the math and my story was thatof many.
I was born in a very part of avery fluent community.

(02:57):
I attended private schools, Ihad a safe family and I had
every opportunity to succeed.
The problem was that I'mdyslexic and no matter how hard
I worked and work hard I did Istill struggled in school.
The result I cried a lot and itwasn't fair.
And that didn't change untilmuch later in my life, thanks to
the unwavering support of mymother.
But, as many of you might haveguessed, the computer.

(03:17):
It opened up my world toopportunity.
Finally I could read my ownhandwriting.
I had tools like Excel, wordand others that helped level the
playing field for me.
And technology has done justthat for billions of us made our
lives easier, safer, healthierand fairer.
But as the saying goes, everytechnology is both a burden and
a blessing.

(03:38):
What I've found is that thosevery same strategies that have
helped my career as a businessor digital marketing expert
flourish, have had the exactopposite effect on millions of
business owners, and today it israre that a business would have
no experience with onlineadvertising.
Even the smallest mom and pophas a GoDaddy or Wix website,
has tried to boost a socialmedia post, added some SEO,

(03:58):
enhancement, something, and, asa result, not a day goes by that
I don't speak to businessowners of all sizes, from all
industries with the same outcrythat, by the time they've
reached me, they've already beenthrough three or more agencies,
often spending hundreds ofthousands of dollars without the
promised return.
I had clients crying to me onthe phone when had I been?
And finally I had enough.
We had to reach people faster.

(04:19):
We had to do something and Irealized that with my expertise,
partners and technology that Icould make that meaningful
change.
And luckily, forbes agreed andhelped me expedite my book from
pitch to publishing in 11 months, because the crisis is real and
really.
You know, when I was going tocollege back in back in the day,
you know there wasn't digitaladvertising.

(04:41):
You know a website was avirtual brochure and there
really wasn't.
There wasn't social media,which I'm grateful for.
But I actually started thelearning.
But I had to learn it allmyself, and that started when I
had a back injury in my latetwenties and I was going to a
physical therapist and she askedme if I could build her website
.
And at the time WordPress wasreally taking off and I had a

(05:02):
boyfriend and he was not the.
He was very good looking, butnot the sharpest tool in the
shed.
And at the time, wordpress wasreally taking off and I had a
boyfriend and he was not the hewas very good looking, but not
the sharpest tool in the shedand he had been telling me that
he was building WordPresswebsites.
And I was like, wow, you know,if he can do it, I'm sure that I
can do it.
So I reluctantly told her thatI could, for, you know, for
therapy trade.
And that's what started my, mylearning.

(05:22):
I built my first WordPresswebsite, I started my first
AdWords campaign and then fromthere, in the last 15 years,
it's just built.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
I love it.
That's fantastic and, again, Ithink I relate to you so much in
a lot of your journey and whatyou've done and why you've done
it.
Because it's like there is thisadvertising marketing, digital
especially.
It's such a great mobilizer forbusinesses and small businesses
especially, and they are atsuch a disadvantage oftentimes
and it can feel, like you said,very overwhelming and they do

(05:53):
get burnt sometimes.
Right, I haven't plugged thisnew podcast yet on this podcast,
but I need to.
We started another spinoffpodcast called Together
Marketing Rescue, which, Anna, Iwould love it if you came on
and listened.
It is for our members only tolisten to, but the podcast
episodes themselves are live soyou can go out and find them in
the world under TogetherMarketing Rescue and the goal is

(06:15):
kind of in line with, like,what your mission is.
It's like we are trying tofigure out how do we marry up
small businesses with marketingservice providers that are smart
about how they use their moneyand their time right and then
they report well and likethey're being ethical.
And I'm not saying becauseyou're a big business that

(06:36):
you're not ethical, but you havemore overhead, you have more
layers of complexity, and notevery small business it can
afford, nor needs a big agencyto do the work that they need
have done.
And so the goal of, you know,marketing rescue was to really
help solve a problem, both forour members who own marketing
services, who are struggling tofind clients, and all these

(06:56):
amazing small businesses, momand pops, that have really kind
of maxed out their owncapabilities.
You know, because, like thefirst episode is my friend,
kristen, who owns sweets andmeats barbecue, and you know
they know barbecue that's that'swhat she's there for.
Like her and her husband,that's what they're doing.
They don't need to be worryingabout like are there social
media ads performing?
They need somebody to help themwith that response, responsibly

(07:18):
and ethically.
Ethically because they're justgood people who started with the
grill and $800, you know.
And so I just I love so muchabout what you have done and
what you're doing with your bookand with the way that you're
approaching marketing, because,yeah, it just is really helping
a lot of people like grow theirbusiness, which means food for
their family, school for theirkids, it's.
It's such a great equalizer andhelping grow the economy in the

(07:41):
places where we need to begrowing it right now.
So I'm kind of curious youserve as a lot of clients to get
back to you, a lot of clientsacross different industries.
How do you help businesses findtheir authentic voice in a
digital space too?
Because that's a challenge,right, and this is very now.
Like you said, when we bothwent to school, digital was not
a thing, and now we're just alla grain of sand in the desert

(08:06):
that is the internet.
How are you helping clients?

Speaker 2 (08:08):
work through that.
Well, yeah, I think you made areally interesting comment there
, because a lot of you know, Ialways hear every day people
talk about SEO, right, and oh, Ihave to be in the first page of
search.
And did you know that there areover 250,000 websites that come
online worldwide every day?
Woo, 170 a minute.
So you know, the idea of searchis changing.
As I said, you know, we're aneedle in the haystack and the

(08:31):
most important thing is reallyto, in today's day and age, to
have that be authentic, you know, really share the real story
and have a value proposition.
And brands of today.
They don't just have a missionstatement, they're proving that
that's part of their business,right, like, how are we going to
evoke and share?
Okay, you know we care aboutthe environment.

(08:53):
Okay, well, what are your proofpoints of that?
And those little authenticstories are really what AI can't
, you know, can't mirror right,Because it's in the real world
and we see that that's reallyreally important for what to do
to stand out.
But every business, I think isthe most important thing is to
determine who is your audience.

(09:13):
And now, with digital, the goodnews is that we can reduce
waste by really drilling intohow we're going to target that
person and move them through thepurchase funnel.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
I love that when it comes to helping find your
clients find their authenticvoice.
I mean, I'm already thinkingabout the examples of the few
episodes we've recorded one withCrystal who owns Magnificent
Morsels and one with Kristen whoowns Sweets and Meats.
I mean sometimes I mean forthose two I'm just going to give
an example to help.
Maybe you answer this.

(09:45):
But you know one of them inparticular, like that whole
notion of them starting with agirl and $800.
I was like I just feel likethat more people need to know
and understand that.
And then, like I only justlearned that like all of the
recipes they use were handeddown throughout her husband's
family and that to me as aconsumer, right, it makes me
choose differently.
I was wondering if you couldkind of dive a little deeper,

(10:07):
like what are the ways in whichyou're helping your clients,
like be specifically moreauthentic, because we throw that
word around a lot in thisindustry and then I don't think
people understand how toactually get to that point.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
You know it really boils down to storytelling,
which is one of the most commonbehavioral science strategies
that we can utilize.
Because you know one of themost common behavioral science
strategies that we can utilize,because you know humans.
That's how we all began aroundcampfires, sharing stories, and
so it's like what?
That's the story.
It's about the, you know the,the legacy.
It's about the community.

(10:38):
It's about you know what is thestory.
That's the reason why you'rehere.
Why are you?
I mean everyone, when they starta business, they really are,
you know, they have, they haveto think they're going to
provide something that's notbeing provided in that way.
Well, and how did they arriveat that decision?
Because it's a big decision tostart a business.
Yeah, your barbecue says it'sbetter.

(10:59):
Well, why is it better?
Well, well, because you knowthese are the stories that make
up up the reason why we knewthat we had to.
You know the passion, was thereable to invest our time and
love, and it's all about love.
If you can't show that love,then the consumer won't respond
to it and you won't last, youwon't make it.
So just really sitting down andthinking.

(11:21):
We always go through thesebrand exercises with clients and
asking those questions Like ifyou were a car, what car would
you be?
If your brand was a car, whatmusic would they be listening to
?
What is the personification andwhat are the stories that they
tell people about who they areand why they're here and who
they'll be in the future?

Speaker 1 (11:38):
And do you ever find any clients and I'm even
thinking about this from like anindividual personal branding
standpoint people holding backbecause it's like they want to
have like a certain ideal selfout there in the world or an
ideal product or brand withoutany vulnerability?
I mean, how much vulnerabilitydo you think is required for a
brand to really reachauthenticity?

Speaker 2 (11:56):
I think in today's day and age, you have to be
completely vulnerable, like youshould not hold anything back,
because those are the keydifferentiators, like we call
them leverageable points ofdifference, what make you better
, unique.
And if you're holding back,that's the brand of the past,
where we were in control.
Like you know, the how mediaworked before we had social
media and online, it was aone-way discussion.

(12:17):
We told the brand, you know, wehad print, we had radio, we it
was a one-way conversation,brand, brand to consumer, and
then you could control it.
Right Now, with today, withthis dialogue that's happening,
the brand has to realize thatthey can't hide because people
will figure it out right andthen, once that trust is lost,

(12:38):
it's impossible to get it back.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yes, oh, I so agree.
Such good advice.
Thanks for letting me dig inmore with that question.
Let's talk a little bit about apart of your book that
emphasizes a lot about reachingthe right people at the right
time, and how has this targetedchallenge, or targeting
challenge, evolved over your 20years in digital marketing?

Speaker 2 (12:59):
And I think it's related to what we were just
kind of the topic we were justtalking about, because you know
before it again was back to thatone way conversation, right,
and we could control thedialogue and as and even with
digital and its early stagestage and to some degree, you

(13:19):
know not.
When I say early, I mean eventhe last five or 10 years what's
happened right is that we aretreating it the same way we try
treated any media, right.
If I wanted to advertise online, I would go to directly to that
company let's say it was peoplemagazine and I have a media buy
and I'm on their site and nowI'm available to anyone who
comes to peoplecom.
But is that?
Does that?
That's blanketing it out there?

(13:40):
Is that same person the one whois actively seeking or
interested in my product?
The answer is maybe, but you'rewasting a lot of inventory and
marketing budget on everyone andtoday, with the digital tools
we have available, the mostimportant part is to reduce
waste and increase, and that'swhat I think is all goes down to

(14:02):
reducing waste, you know.
I don't want to see a powercommercial or like a power tool
commercial or a diapercommercial, right, you know?
And the?
And as a marketing person, Idon't want to show my ad to
somebody who's not interested init.
Right, it's this targeting andthe ability to say okay, like
you know, are they raising theirhand for these products, are

(14:23):
they?
You know, I'm a big believer inuniversal consent and I think a
lot of companies miss it.
You know, marketers have beenthose ones who have always been
the abusers of data.
We'll call it right and andreluctant.
I mean, I talk to clients allthe time about, oh, the data in
their database, so we don't wantto get rid of any of it.
Well, why, right, you know it's.
Why are we holding on to likesquirrels, Like you know?

(14:47):
Like, oh, they're all of ouracorns?
Well, you know, and there's acost associated with that.
There's risk associated withthat.
As someone, they should.
It should be just as easy forsomeone to opt in as opt out.
I might be interested today ingiving you my email for a 10%
off coupon, but tomorrow Idecided I don't want it.
You coupon, but tomorrow Idecided I don't want it.
You know, remove them from yourdatabase.
You're holding you to pay tohold them into MailChimp and any

(15:07):
of these programs you pay fortexting.
There's risk to your domain ifyou send too many emails and
they spam them.
And you know and same thing withdata.
I mean with California consumerprotection and other global
standards.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
you know the rights of the consumer are important
and that makes marketing better,because you are going to only
be speaking to people who arewanting to engage with you oh my
gosh, there's so manyimplications to what you're
saying, anna, and it makes somuch sense, and I just wish we
could kind of scream it from therooftops for the amount of
money that gets wasted on, likeover indexing, on impressions,

(15:40):
the economic impact like not theeconomic but the ecological
impact, like not the economicbut the ecological impact on
those things.
It's like one of those things Inever even knew until probably
10 plus years into my careerthat, like all of that you know
you'd think that, oh, it's allgoing into the ether, it's all
on the internet, it's all cloudstorage.
No, it's taking like a toll onour environment when we blast

(16:01):
the world with a ton ofadvertising without being
responsible as to, like, whowe're trying to reach and why.
And again, we have to treattime and attention like it's
gold, not just on our own endbut for our consumers ends,
because, yeah, we're all justsitting here being very like
overwhelmed by choice, right,and then we end up defaulting to

(16:22):
like whatever's there.
So right time, right place isstill so important.
But I think like leaning thatinto that even harder for a
number of reasons makes a wholelot of sense.
I think it used to just be apassing thing.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
If you buy something, and then how many times have
people listening to this?
And they bought something.
Maybe they wanted a vacuumcleaner and they bought the
vacuum cleaner and now they'regetting bombarded by vacuum
cleaner right.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
Well, I bought it.
I know it's done right andthat's just wait.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
So that's not that.
That's using old strategies oflist acquisition and and things
where I mean as a, for instanceI give this example, my book,
like you know, if, um, most youknow top of funnel companies
where that are doing awarenessadvertising online.
That's top of the funnel.
They they are using lists rightto acquire data.
And I'll give you an example.
So let's say that an eBay isone of the largest sellers of

(17:09):
data.
So let's say I'm going to ababy shower and I go to eBay and
I buy a baby stroller.
Right Now I'm on a list thatsays I'm the parent of a toddler
, but I'm not the parent of atoddler.
I bought one product one time.
Now I did work for the hospitalhere.
I built this baby app for thewomen's hospital.
So now we buy this data andwe're now starting trying to
serve ads to someone who is aparent of a toddler.

(17:32):
Well, that's why and this is oneof those red flags I think
we'll talk about later is thatif they tell you, oh, it's going
to take 60, 90 days for it towork, well, that's a red flag.
The reason why is becausethey're trying to match
consumers in ways that theycan't be matched.
And today, with the tools wehave, we know I would never
serve an ad to someone on thatlist, I wouldn't use a list like

(17:54):
that.
But there are hundreds ofmetrics.
If I was a parent of a toddler,I would be going to mommy blogs
, I would be doing a hundredother activities that would
identify that.
Yes, not only am I a tallparent of a toddler, but I'm in
market for this specific thingnow, and that can change once I
got that stroller.
Now I'm on to the next thingyeah and so that's why it's so
important to pick the rightpartners and the right data

(18:16):
sources and be, you know, opento.
If it sounds too good to betrue, it is probably is that's
so true, and it's funny,probably is that's so true and
it's funny, it's like it's.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Instead, as marketers , I think the point you're
making at least what I'm hearingis like we have to look at the
correlation of behaviors versusone trigger behavior, because
this has come up and happened inthe past too, because I as well
have worked on products forlike women and we used to do
like we don't anymore likeMother's Day type of posts or
emails, like we don't anymorelike Mother's Day type of posts
or emails, and I know I think itwas Target at some point that

(18:50):
was able to kind of likeapproximate based on women's
purchases when or if they becamepregnant.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
But it's like also that's also pretty risky.
I don't want to interrupt you,but that's actually something
that's very risky for theconsumer and we're seeing that
already where you know, likebecause of their buying behavior
, they're starting getting likethis woman, a young girl, I mean
like a teenager she waspregnant and her father found
out you know about the storyyeah, found out because of the
ads exactly what I was gettingto right yeah, yep, that's

(19:12):
exactly what I was getting to oryou know

Speaker 1 (19:14):
you have that instance of the woman who the
the birth, something happens andyou know she isn't able to
carry out the pregnancy, andthen that's devastating.
And then throw on top of thedevastation, a bunch of ads
thrown in your face about babies, like no thanks, that's not the
right time, that's not theright place.
But you're right, we haveenough data out there if we can
learn how to use it properly anduse it well versus, you know,

(19:38):
only thinking about like theiradvantage, thinking about how it
will impact others.
Um, I think it comes back and Ithink it proves to be, like
you're saying too, moreeffective and more impactful
because it truly is the righttime and the right place and not
just the assumed right time andplace.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, right, and that's the goal.
What is our role as a businessprovider and service provider?
And because now, trust is soimportant for the consumer and
we know that those who evenshare their privacy and how they
use data are getting moreadoption than those who aren't.
And would someone shop atTarget again?

(20:14):
I mean, probably not, Iwouldn't.
So it's a business decisionthat's going to pay off.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
I agree.
So, speaking of trust, in yourbook you talk about how
businesses should never trustanyone to bid on their behalf.
Can you talk us through maybesome examples of what that is
and what that means and whereyou've seen this go wrong and
what should have been donedifferently?

Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah.
So you know that's a reallygreat question and it comes down
to that.
Companies like let's talk aboutGoogle for a minute.
There's so many that we cantalk about.
But Google, right, you knowanyone, they you know they make
it sound so easy for you.
It's called smart bidding,right, and what they say is that
, hey, don't worry about youknow anything, you just tell us

(21:12):
what you want to spend for a dayand we're going to handle the
rest.
I think we can all understandthat they can't know what our
customers worth to us and whatis a conversion.
And when there's a shopping ad,for example, it's much easier
to determine because there was acredit card that was swiped and
the transaction was occurred onthat visit.
But for B2B or anything else,if I saw a lot of solar I do a
lot of solar work you know aconversion is a lead, but did we
meet with that customer?
Were they qualified right?

(21:33):
Did they sit with us?
All these different things.
So if we're letting an algorithmsay, oh, it's worth this, well,
they don't know the whole story, right.
And the same thing with zipcodes.
They don't know the whole story, right.
And the same thing with zipcodes.
Like, back to solar.
Not all zip codes.
I might cover California, butthen we can agree that there are
different territories inCalifornia or zip codes where
they're higher income residents.
Not everyone is worth the sameand they can't know that.

(21:56):
It's your business, right?
You have to be the one who'sgoing to know and be in control
of that process, and so they'llspend all your money and there
you are wondering well, where'smy ROI?
Well, you let it up to someonewho knows nothing about your
barbecue sauce, right?
And so that's one of the kindof easy examples.

(22:16):
Another one is that the media,unlike traditional advertising
where there's a fixed insertionorder, like meaning that I'm
agreeing to spend $5,000 on aprint ad, this is what I'm going
to get, this is my column widthand length and this is where
it's going to be distributed,and whatnot.
Online advertising is areal-time auction, happening
24-7, meaning that it changesdaily based off of, you know,

(22:42):
seasonality, environmentalissues, even the weather right,
we see it affect online behavior, competition.
A lot of times we see bigcompanies will do what's called
flighting.
So let's say that I'm back tosolar.
You know, like a Tesla or a bigcompany like that could decide
they're going to launch a newproduct and they're going to
spend a million dollars onlinein California in these two weeks

(23:05):
.
Well, that, then, is going topush all the bids up, right,
because they're bidding very,very aggressively.
Well, if you're not payingattention and you're not really
looking at your data and whatyou're spending and how many
people you're reaching we callthat search impression share
Well, then you might make somebad decisions, you might all of
a sudden be competing withsomeone who has five or six

(23:27):
times the budget you have,whereas if you start to really
realize you are in control.
And while there's a lot ofthings we're not in control of,
we can at least make decisionsquickly and decide, you know,
okay.
Well, today I was bidding, oryesterday I bid $5 and I reached
30, 40% of the audience.
Now that same bid I'm onlyreaching 110%.

(23:48):
Well, what's happening in themarket?
Right, and am I going toradically try to adjust or am I
going to just wait it out,because those flights don't last
?
And so those are the kind ofreasons why you need to be in
control.
And if you let someone else pay,what they're going to do is
spend all your money and, like,the last one I'll give you is
Facebook and it's all.
If you let someone else pay,what they're going to do is to
spend all your money and, like,the last one I'll give you is

(24:09):
Facebook.
Yeah, and it's all.
If you remember nothing else,just remember that their job
right, and they want to help you.
I'm not saying that they don't,but they're going to spend all
your money, no matter what.
That's why Facebook.
They won't promise you anything.
They give you an estimate ofimpressions and clicks right.
It's not a promise, right?

(24:29):
So the trick here is to give itenough time.
So if I have a promote, if Iwant to spend $500, we'll give
it five.
Give it a month to spend the$500, a lifetime budget.
Because if you do a dailybudget or a short-term window,
what's going to happen is that,no matter what, by the end of
that budget, by the end of theday, they will have spent all
your money.
But we can't.
We don't know what happened,right?
Did those impressions ever getserved?

(24:50):
And the answer is that no, theydon't.
Because how do we know that theimpression was ever served?
Right?
And then for our listeners intraditional advertising, if I
run a TV commercial and I wantto know did it run?
I can call Nielsen.
Nielsen reports every TVstation in the country.
They can pull up a report andshow me that, yes, my spot ran.
This is how many people weretuned in If grandpa slept

(25:13):
through it or someone left theirTV on for the dog.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Well, that's not their fault, right?
And?

Speaker 2 (25:16):
it's fair.
Scarborough does it for theradio.
There are third parties thatfollow print publications and
make sure they're distributed.
There are companies that standon the side of the road and
click billboards as they pass by, or click cars as they pass by
billboards to confirm impressionshare.
There is no third partyoversight online at all.
You have to believe the mediacompany that what they've said

(25:37):
in terms of impressions oh, Iserved a million impressions,
great.
How do you know that?
Yeah, and that's the bottomline.
There are ways that you can.
You know there are protectionsfor that and for bots and with
the rise of the bots, now halfof all traffic online is fake
and they're getting smarter andsmarter.
So, you know, using botprotection, picking the right

(25:58):
partners that will allow us toput a third party pixel into our
ad to see that it was viewed.
You know there are so many waysto be taken advantage of at
every level, by the publisher,by the browser, by the.
You know.
So I write about all that in mybook.
But, really understanding, youknow that you have options and
if you trust the other thirdparty, well then that's your

(26:19):
fault.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yeah, I guess you're kind of paying for that
inconvenience, so just might aswell consider like a big old
convenience fee at the end ofthe day.
So what are some?
I think you gave some goodstrategies and tips and ways in
which we could start to lookinto and make sure that you know
, I think, part of why people goto the bid on behalf.
Well, one businesses do what weknow because they can make a

(26:40):
quicker buck right for theconvenience factor, but us as
marketers, you know it might bemore of like time constraints.
So maybe what would some tipsthat be that you would have for
marketers who want to do more ofthis, where they aren't using
the automatic bidding but theyhave a multitude of clients that
they're trying to serve?
Like how do you kind of manageall of that?

Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, you know, I mean, it's actually really not
that, not that challenging, andon my website, the Cobra code, I
have free resources.
You can download a checklistfor Google and you can just
follow the instructions andwithin 20 minutes you will have
saved 20% or increase yourconversion at the same value.
I'll give you another like thisis a really easy one, right?
If anyone has Google ads andthey're on their computer right

(27:24):
now, log in and you go to yoursettings, campaign settings.
Go down to location, right, youmight, let's say I'm targeting
some, I want to target people inHawaii.
Okay, well, right underneaththe location section there's a
little hidden setting there andit says you know location
settings and you turn it on andthere are two options there.
One is the default from Google,two options there.

(27:50):
One is the default from Googleand it says target people who
are located or have interest inmy target location.
That's recommended, yeah, andthe one right below that is
target people physically locatedin my location.
Now let me give you an example.
If I let Google do what theyrecommend and that they
automatically default, let's sayI'm back to solar here.
I have a solar company here inHawaii and I'm targeting people
in Hawaii.
Well, you have interest inHawaii.
You're coming on vacation inHawaii, so you're looking at

(28:12):
hotels, you're looking atactivities, you're looking at
all kinds of things restaurants,where am I going to stay.
You have interest in Hawaii.
Now you're back home in Ohioand you want solar.
Right, you go online, yousearch, boom up pops my ad.
You click on it because it'shard to tell a location from an

(28:32):
ad.
Right and you see this solarcompany is in Hawaii.
You click right out 30% ofbudgets or more are spent
because people are allowing thatone default.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yeah, wow, that's impressive.
Thank you so much.
I love all this more in thedetails nitty gritty, tactical
stuff and I know our members doas well, because they're in this
every day.
One of our live listeners,jillian, was just commenting how
insightful this was, becauseshe sets up campaigns every day
that utilize this automaticbidding and she's trying to
fight it, but love being able tosee different viewpoints, since

(29:01):
her clients are always set onthese lists and these
automations.
But I think if you can go backto them, Jillian, and share some
of this data of like yeah, 30%waste, Does that sound good to
you client?

Speaker 2 (29:13):
Like, maybe we try a different route you know, we
only want to target people inour zip codes, right?
Do you have clients in Nebraska?
No, well then let's not makesure that they're not getting
ads right.
And another easy one thatpeople can use, and it's one of
the ones that they always hide,right?
So there are three differentnetworks.
Right, there's Google search.

(29:34):
Right, meaning that you go toGoogle and you search.
There are Google partners whichthey won't even share a list.
That should be a red flag foryou, but why won't they share a
list?
Right, there's all these otherpartners that they say they can
serve ads on their site.
Then there's a display networkright, which is basically the
same thing as the partners, butjust a display ad.
Okay, so how we buy mediaonline is a really important

(29:54):
segue here, right?
So anytime that I go, let's saythat I'm doing display network
and no remarketing is one of thethings we'll talk about in a
little bit.
But, uh, and so every time,every, whoever you pick to be
your distributor in this caseit's google every site that they
serve my ad on, they have topay that that site.

(30:15):
So if my ad shows on people,google has to pay people, right
for that impression, right?
Well, how does google get paid?
Well, they get paid by cost perclick.
So a lot of people don't knowthis, but it it was a time a
couple of years ago where theywere like worried about going
bankrupt.
Ok, and it's a shock.
People are like what?
But the problem was is theywere so big and so bad and they

(30:37):
were on.
You know, they were on.
They were like the no one couldcompete, right, and they were
serving millions of impressions.
Yeah, serving millions ofimpressions, but they were only.
You know, some of these adswere.
They had eight ways to bid.
Back then you could only, youknow, some people were paying
like 20 cents a click.
Well, google realized, oh myGod, they had these bills that
they couldn't pay because theywere now having to pay for every

(30:57):
ad.
So what did they do?
Well, they did two things.
They made, they changed all thebidding strategies.
There's now only three ways.
Two are in Google's control.
The only way you can use is maxcost per click and then you can
set it.
So you can say I want to bid bymax cost per click.
So I say I always start withlike a $5 or $3, right, no
matter what, it is Set thatthat's a max that you're willing
to spend, right, and then we'regoing to use exact match

(31:20):
keywords to make sure thatthat's what's being shown, right
, you know?
But so now you know.
Then the other thing that theydid was they deployed bots to
click on their own ads to makesure they could pay their
partners.
So, and for that reason, myfavorite partner is ClickSeize,
and actually on my website, ifyou go to the partner section
under resources, I have someaffiliate links.

(31:41):
We do a donation to Maui forthe fires that people sign up
using my account.
I love it.
You know, within seven daysit's only like $65, right for
the big plan and you willimmediately.
So it blocks the bots, right?
The first bot will be tracked,will be built to you, but then
after that they block that IPand then what that's going to

(32:02):
tell you is that the only wayyou can do that really is
through Google search.
Does Google search costanything to Google?
No, they don't have to paythemselves.
If they show an ad on their ownsite, it's opportunity cost who
?
What they're doing is saying,okay, how many advertisers do I
have who are meet the criteria?
And now it's a bidding war,right, but it's just an

(32:24):
opportunity cost for them.
It doesn't cost them anything.
So only use Google search.
Don't add partners, don't adddisplay.
You know at all, right, and nomatter what they tell you, it's
not going to be good for you,right?
The bots are clicking on it andyou can't protect them.
Then get click-seize andconnect your Google Ads account
and you'll immediately see thatyou're saving 30% from day one.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
That's awesome.
I can't wait to start doingsome of these things.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
You can go down to the checklist on my website.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
I love it, I love it and I love all the resources and
all of it.
It's just so awesome andgenerous.
So I mean, we're kind oftiptoeing around this already
but like and I don't know ifthis is just the one of them or
one of many but I was wonderingif we could kind of talk through
some of the bigger red flags,that digital marketing experts

(33:14):
how do you know if they might bea fraud?

Speaker 2 (33:17):
Oh yeah, so there's some really easy ones.
So the first you're going toask them a couple questions, and
the first question is how areyou going to prove to me that
this impression ran and thefirst question is how are you
going to prove?
To me that this impression ranwell, you know because if you
and and a lot of times I meanthe fact is they, they're, they
may not be able to right and sothat's a red flag, right?

(33:39):
you know, um, and I always havea lot of clients ask you know
I'll be, you know I'll call theclient, a potential client and
oh, they're like, oh, we doremarketing.
I'm like, oh, that's great.
You know i've'll call apotential client.
And oh, they're like, oh, we doremarketing.
I'm like, oh, that's great.
You know, I've been to yourwebsite.
I haven't seen any ads.
That might be because I'm inHawaii, you know, yeah, do you
ever see your own ads?
Oh, well, maybe.
Well, no, it shouldn't be.
Maybe Do you see your own ads,like, I see my to see it, to

(34:07):
believe it.
Right, that's a easy one, right?
Yeah, um, if you're googlingyourself and you don't see your
own ad, that's a red flag, right.
But how are they going to proveit works?
What is the protection againstinvalid traffic?
Do they use bot protection andare you paying for invalid
traffic?
you're not right and over.
This is how we're going totrack it.
This is what we're going to doabout it, right?
Um, and?
And then you shouldn't pay forinvalid traffic.
There are partners that willyou know, on the top of funnel

(34:28):
who will share it with you, andthen you won't pay for it.
No-transcript.

(34:50):
We can you know you'reinterested in the military?
Great, we can put a fencearound the military base and we
can serve ads.
Okay, well, great.
How are you going to do thatwith the technology available
today?
Because there's no tracking,location tracking on the phone
anymore?
Yeah, tracking, locationtracking on the phone anymore.
Yeah, how?
So?
Well, I mean, you know, oh,then they're gonna be like well,
how are you going to prove that?
Right?
And then there are, there aresome partners who.

(35:11):
There are some better ways wecan do it, but basically it's if
you have, like the cablecompanies, if they have control
of the IP, then we do knowthat's called addressable
inventory.
We know their house is therebecause they have the internet,
and then we know, right, thatthey're there, right?
But other than that, howthey're doing it is based off of
list acquisition back to that.
So they're buying a list ofpeople in an area that match

(35:34):
your, a woman, and this age.
We think, because of a thirdparty, that they live there and
then they're going to try toserve you an ad, which is
ridiculous.
How are they going to serve youthat ad?
How are they going to?
You know, on a computer there'scookies, right, and cookies.
We all probably have heard ofcookie degradation and what does
it mean, and all that whichwe'll get to.
But on a phone it's calledfinger ID mapping, so there's no

(35:56):
IP address on your phone, right?
So how they're looking for theconnection is based off of an
email that matches somewherethat they do have and they're
trying to connect it.
That's why in apps a lot of apps, they have location tracking.
That's one of the ways thatthey can try to associate.
But then how many ads can youserve?
How often are they in that app?
So you have to be very, verycareful when people throw around

(36:19):
these terms.
And then you're like, okay,great, I want to believe you.
I do want to believe you.
Prove it to me, prove to me,and you know so.
If, let's say, probably a lot ofpeople are listening right now,
you may.
I would point to an event,right, and you have a booth at
an event.
Wouldn't it be wonderful togeofence this conference center
and then serve ads, people whoattend?
Yeah, that'd be the dream,right?

(36:39):
Okay, they're going to say thatthey can do it and no problem.
And then you're going to askthem well, how, what is the
frequency that you're going tobe able to serve these ads?
And they're going to hum and haand well, and you probably will
get back something like three,a frequency of three.
Over what time?
Well, 30 days, okay.
Well, do you think that, withall of the chaos and all of the

(37:00):
things you consume daily, thatthree impressions over 30 days
is going to be enough for themto move.
No, it's not Not going to movethem.
Same thing with your Facebookads.
If you look at a report afterand you look at the frequency
it's going to come up.
Usually every industry is on 1.5.
Well, 1.5, that's a weirdnumber.
First of all, right, how do youhave a half an impression?

(37:21):
But that's not enough to movesomeone from the top of the
funnel to the bottom of thefunnel.
When they say it takes seven towin, you need to see something
at least seven times.
Yes, and you know over, andthat's the easy way.
I mean, I have more, more kindof math and details in my book
about how, the way that I, youknow, use digital online.
Right, because there isn't anycritical mass messaging equation

(37:45):
.
Right, of course.
It's best because, just back to, how would we ever know?
Right, because it's a dark hole.
Google can control everything.
If you've heard of thisantitrust lawsuit and you look
at the graph, I have a graphthat I've it might be on my
website but I can share with youlater and it just shows
basically, there's three partsof the buying right and Google
is making money at every singlepart.

(38:06):
There's no way to serve an adonline today where google
doesn't make money.
Yeah, let's make sure theydon't make all the money.
Right, you can pick.
I can even buy google from themedia exchange.
I don't have to buy from right.
Yeah, so you must see it tobelieve it.
You ask them.
You know how do you?
How are we going to prove thatthese impressions are served?
Because another thing that canhappen if you're let's say

(38:28):
you're on CNN, an ad getsdisplayed, and how you know it's
on the media exchange isthere's a little blue cone in
the top corner.
If there's no cone, that meansthat that person went directly
to CNN and bought a package liketraditional advertising, right.
But if you see the cone, youknow a lot of times an ad will
play and then another ad willplay right behind it.
It'll play another ad or yoursame ad.

(38:50):
That's because they'redelivered stacked in a container
.
So there might be multiple adsthat are served or in stacked in
the container, but that doesn'tmean that you reviewed that ad
as I'm scrolling down the page,that you reviewed that ad as I'm
scrolling down the page I made.
It's up there but it's notviewable to me.
Well, a lot of people willcharge you for it being

(39:12):
delivered to the page.
That's what's called theviewability score, right?
So how are we going to provethat the impression ran and was
viewed?
What percentage?
You know?
A lot of times I say like, okay, we're looking for like a 50%
view, right, because people arescrolling and you know we can't
have it all right.
Or 75%, but you have to be incontrol of that.
No, especially with YouTube,for example, right, you know, if

(39:34):
you go right to YouTube, firstof all there's no bot protection
and they can skip after sevenseconds.
If I buy it through the mediaexchange, I can guarantee the
view through is 75% or 100% andI can validate invalid traffic.
So you have to know that.
You know you're in control.
You know you pick the rightpartners and then you ask the
right questions and they won'tbe able to answer them if

(39:56):
they're fraud.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah Well, and I mean I would also say that, like I
would go so far as to say that Ijust don't think that there's
enough education in general,which is why I appreciate what
you're doing so much formarketers themselves not to
behave in what feels like afraudulent manner of like just
not knowing and not recognizingand realizing, because I think
oftentimes you know digital, youknow, like we said, it wasn't,

(40:20):
it wasn't even like a line ofcoursework within school for us
10, 15 years ago, and evennowadays the tools are changing
constantly, right?
So, like in all of the masshysteria over going to G4, right
, it's like they're alwaysevolving and they're always
changing, and I think what wesometimes forget is, like what
you're saying we have control,but we also have to recognize

(40:40):
that they have the data, whichmeans you can't implicitly trust
every platform to basically beperforming to your best interest
in dollar.
You have to do what you'redoing, anna, which is asking the
questions, digging harder intothe data and being a smarter
marketer at the end of the day,which is what makes me so
excited?

Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, and I think you made a really good point there.
It's something so important.
I always tell clients that alot of times I hear there's a
lot of fear.
Right, you know?
Oh, it worked before.
Why isn't it working now?
Right?
Or if I stop the ads, thenwhat's going to happen?
Well, okay, if your ads any adyou're doing should have some
kind of trackable, measurableresult.
If it doesn't, don't spend more.
I mean, that's one of thenumber one things I hear.

(41:18):
Oh, they told me I increased mybudget.
No, you don't be afraid to push, pause and regroup.
Look at the website.
You know what is the mobileexperience.
You know what is.
How do we get we're gettingtraffic.
How do we get more from thattraffic?
Because, before you spend adollar on on paid search or
anything, you need to make surethat the website is converting

(41:40):
and and that's.
And then, if they do changecause they'll change and it's
not working all of a sudden,well, hey, let's regroup and
it's better to cut your losses.
Tomorrow will come, but youdon't want to spend $2,000
waiting for that realization.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
No, no, I mean again small businesses.
That's just definitely notideal.
Let's talk about searchmarketing.
Because we've brought it up acouple of different times, I'm
curious, like if you have someadvice or thoughts on some of
the more counterintuitive thingsyou have learned about this,
when businesses should orshouldn't invest in it, you said
.
I want to go back to somethingyou said a little earlier too,

(42:21):
about search versus display,even.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
Yeah, you know.
I mean, I think that I can giveyou an example of so.
We're always, you know, becauseof this evolution I guess it's
off the same topic we're alwaystesting new things out, you know
, with clients, and so one acouple of years ago I think it
was two years ago PerformanceMax campaign came out.
Probably people are oh yeah,performance Max and it sounded
great because I always lovedthat Gmail targeting and what

(42:45):
they got rid of, you know,inside the Gmail Right.
So this was like a sound, twogood features a blend right of
YouTube map, gmail searchdisplay and and that was based
off of a smart campaign prettymuch.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
Right.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
You know, performance max means that you you have to
have a daily budget and Google'sgoing to serve the ads where
they want, right.
But you had a client.
We're like like, let's try itout, right and right from the
get-go.
Well, this is before.
I knew about bot protection,right, but I wish it wouldn't
have worked.
But, um, that's here nor,neither here nor there, anyway.
So the campaign starts and allof a sudden we're starting to
see so many conversions andwe're like, oh, my god, it's a

(43:22):
holy grail like this, right.
But then our Slack channel ispinging and the client's like,
oh, we're getting all theseforms filled out on their
Unbounce page.
But then we start lookingthrough them and their bots,
right, and it's clear.
It's like you know, mike atBotzillacom, yeah, and so you
know, it was a lot of times,especially with companies, when
you're not the one who's incontrol right or you're the

(43:43):
business owner, you're busy,you're doing other things.
You know you might be looking ata report and like, oh, wow,
this is working.
But then you have to say, well,is it really working?
You know, what are theseconversions that Google's
tracking, and do they matter toyou?
Right?
So that's, you know, kind ofone of the pieces of like that
we try things out and you know,but back to that you can't

(44:04):
really trust it.
You know, and and I think itall depends what tool you pick
really depends on where you arein the purchase funnel.
And this is a really importantfactor, because what we've been
trained to believe, right and isthat digital advertising is all
trackable, right, and it shouldhappen immediately, right, and
and to some fact, you know, atthe bottom of the funnel.

(44:25):
So the for the people listening, in case they don't know.
So the purchase funnel is,there's a awareness, is at the
top right, consideration, intentand action.
So my example for solar I'maware solar exists, okay, great
consideration.
My bill keeps climbing.
What am I going to do about it?
Intent oh my, I'm going to callmy neighbor.
They have solar.
I'm going to call my mom.
Oh, I'm going to go online nowand search for solar.

(44:49):
What do I know about it?
I'm going to start learning.
An ad gets served, they click onthe ad, they go to a website
and now they leave.
So a lot of times people makethe mistake of not understanding
what is the customer's journey,how long it's going to take
Once they go to the site, whatdo we expect it to be before
they come back on their own andconvert?

(45:10):
So what we determined, withhundreds of pixels, is that the
solar journey is between 28 and32 days.
So if I was looking at a reportand I was spending $5,000 a
month and whatnot, and oh well,I don't see it working in, you
know, 15 days, it must not beworking.
Well, you haven't given thecustomer enough time.
Right, shopping is shorterwindow.

(45:31):
It's called a seven day timedecay.
If they didn't buy it withinseven days, chances of them
buying it slipped dramatically.
It depends on the type ofindustry and how long.
The more expensive it is, thebigger investment, the longer
the journey will take.
It could take a year.
Understand that, you know,figure out, and that's when you
say, okay, if I'm going to spendmoney.
And before I get there, youknow.

(45:53):
And so the idea of trackingright, and this is something we
talk about every single day.
Right, like, everyone wants togive everyone credit, right?
Well, everyone wants to takecredit.
It's called attribution.
So in your G4 account peoplelistening go to your settings,
click on attribution and youwant to make sure you have data
driven attribution and you wantto include paid and organic.

(46:14):
Then 30 day click recommendedand then right below that,
there's going to be anotheroption that's going to have 90
days as a recommended setting.
Change it to 30, because youwant everything to be equal so
that you can evaluate whatactually did happen.
So, and I'll give you an exampleso let's say, I clicked on an

(46:34):
ad and I go to the website and Idon't convert.
I don't fill out a form.
The only time a UTM is trackedright is when it completes on
the same visit.
Google ads can, now that we'regoing to give it, this authority
can take credit for up to 30days if they come back from an
organic channel.
Let's say now I see aremarketing ad and I click on it

(46:54):
and I still don't convert.
Now I see a social media post.
Finally, I click and I convert.
Well, if you're looking at atraditional report, it's going
to.
You might think that you havethree conversions One from
Google, one from the remarketingcompany and one from Facebook.
But you didn't have threeconversions, you had one and
they all assisted.
So don't get buried in theweeds of like oh, I can't track

(47:17):
everything, just you knoweverything online.
It's a, it's a environment, itall works together.
And then you have to use yourlittle detective hat to see okay
, well, what was the firstinstance?
I always give the first visitor, like you know, the greatest
value of that source.
But everyone else participated.
So when you want to, you knowwhen the boss says, oh, we need

(47:37):
to, you know, make, make moremoney, we need more leads.
You know you're going toallocate your budget
appropriately to support thelength of the time.
Hey, boss, if we spend $10,000today, we're not going to get
that back for 60 days.
Yeah, we're going to get itback for 90 days.
What is the expectation?
Because if you're not sharingthat right plan, then what's

(47:59):
going to happen is you could cutmarketing too soon before you
had the chance to re-engage thatcustomer on that journey.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
Yep, and what you're talking about a lot.
There is remarketing too, whichis a great segue into.
My next question is if youcould share a success story
where remarketing deliveredunexpected value for clients,
because I think it is a kind ofan undervalued and often not
like something that you put intoplace in a smart or strategic
way, not like something that youput into place in a smart or
strategic way.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
You know I got.
One of my favorite examples isis is my own example.
So I, you know, as a this wasalmost 10 years ago and I was
doing some work here in Hawaii.
But I was doing work for myfirst solar client through
another agency in California andthey were a SunPower dealer, a
big SunPower dealer, andSunPower recently went bankrupt
but they were the largest solarmanufacturer for 36 years, right

(48:46):
, and they're big, you know.
They had 800, 900 dealers.
Anyway, one day, eventually,that client did come over and
work with us here directly.
But one day I get a call fromSunPower and I'm like I'm this
tiny little agency of like twoor three people and I'm like is
this a joke?
Who's pranking me?
You know why is sunpowercalling me?
You know, and it was from.

(49:07):
They don't understand that.
Sorry, my furry terror.
She's like this big, but shethinks she's a big big dog,
right?

Speaker 1 (49:13):
from some power.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
Paul sullivan he had gone to solar at solar
technologies website.
They were doing better thanothers in california, so he
wanted to see why.
And he went there.
And then he left and I was.
He was getting cyber stalkedall over the internet, right.
And he was like Whoa, you knowhe was.
He was like I was the client,was everywhere.
So then he goes back to thesite, scrolls to the bottom,

(49:34):
sees power by me, right, goes tomy site.
Same thing happens.
So that's what prompted him tocall.
He's Like you know, do you wantto go to our dealer or network?
And I was like wow, you know,yeah, but if you want to get an
example and that was back thenwhen we just had display, now,
with the power of programmatic,we have full funnel remarketing

(49:54):
and guys, this is so important,like if you go to the covert
code to download your checklist,I'll start to remarket to you
full funnel.
What that means is you'll seeme on television, right.
You'll see me in an app, you'llhear me on a podcast
sponsorship if there's radiocommercials streaming, right.
And that is so powerful.
Because now the storytellingand that we were talking about

(50:15):
storytelling earlier can youreally share your story at a
banner ad?

Speaker 1 (50:18):
And the answer is no right.

Speaker 2 (50:20):
But it's used for their memory of it, right?
But if now, I mean, I'm onlyspending $300 a month on what
you're about to witness?

Speaker 1 (50:27):
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
I love it and I love that you're using yourself as
the example too.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
That's how you got to do it.
I love it.
That's amazing.
All right, I've got one morequestion before we go into our
power round.
But, listeners, if you havequestions, don't be shy about
throwing them into the chat.
We definitely want to hear them, and I feel like we need to
have you come back and do like amasterclass with us, cause I
really I'm so itching now tolike, get into, like behind

(50:50):
everything you know, look at allthat we're doing and being like
, oh that's right, we are, wealready?
done.
We've already got this in thebag.
This is like the blessing ofbeing super efficient.
I'm like, yeah, I should dothis thing.
No, amy, you've already done it.
You know I'm back.
That's right, because we talkedabout the masterclass first and
then we decided the podcast,versus the other way around.

(51:12):
Yes, I'm so excited to be on inthat and shout out to our
friends, bobby at theinnovationwomenorg website.
By the way, that is how I foundyou and that's how I found so
many amazing speakers for thispodcast and our masterclasses
that our members get to enjoyfor free.

(51:33):
So, yes, definitely check outthat website.
And, anna, thanks forrefreshing my memory.
All right, last question beforewe go into our power round what
is the most common pushbackthat you get from clients about
digital marketing and how do youaddress it?

Speaker 2 (51:44):
pushback that you get from clients about digital
marketing and how do you addressit?
You know, I think, I think itreally is that you know that, oh
, that it's not working becausethey can't track it exactly,
Right, oh, the CRM we're seeing,oh, we're seeing so much, you
know, we're seeing organic leads, we're seeing, you know, direct
traffic, but we're not seeingGoogle paid search.
Yeah Well, guys, you know like,and that's why it's so
important.
We yeah Well, guys, you knowlike, and that's why it's so

(52:04):
important.
We talk about all the time thateven if you're using UTMs, even
if you're using these things,it's only in that same visit
that we're going to get thecredit.
And so you know, we've got toremember that if we're doing
better, like it's because it'sall connected, Right, and and
just because we can'timmediately track it Like we
used to, especially if you'redoing top of funnel, If I'm
running a CTV ad, can someoneclick on it?

(52:24):
No, Right, but there's another.
We have other metrics to say.
Okay, if they're in the samehousehold.
We know that there was asecondary view through that.
They went to the website later.
Right, that's not going to showup in a CRM, it's not going to
show up in a UTM.
So you it's like you know,really, really educating them
and I make clients go throughlike a digital media best
practice presentation.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
I love it.
Yes, good for you.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
I didn't scream that on the phone.
You know, you know, I rememberthis one client.
He was like I'm, you know, buthe was right, he's like.
He's like I'm glad you likeyour data, I want you to like
your data, but on my side of thepage the numbers aren't adding
up, and I realize it's because,you know, we're talking about
impressions, we're talkingclicks, we're talking about
bounce rate and that's great,but it doesn't matter if it's
not making the cash registerring Right, and so it's like

(53:10):
well, are we giving it allcredit?
Right?
Is business doing betteroverall, right, and what is the
benchmarks and what data we'regoing to be looking at to see if
it's working?

Speaker 1 (53:20):
Yeah, can I just lament, though, for a second and
just say you know, I startedoff in direct mail and I've done
TV and I just you know allthose.
I'm just like digital.
We just get the screws put tous because there is so much
that's trackable.
But then I love that you haveyour clients go through that
basics of digital media training, because we do spend so much of
our time educating people tounderstand that just because the

(53:43):
numbers are there do not meanthey're wholly accurate, do not
mean they all interconnect andyou can follow somebody from
point A all the way to the cashregister, point whatever, d, e,
f, you know.
And so it's just one of thosethings I think advocating for
you know again, ethical digitalmarketing, helping people
understand and know the ins andouts of how to spend their money
wisely, how to not waste otherpeople's time and money.

(54:05):
I mean, it's all so importantand I love, love, love that you
are taking the time to do this,because it's helping you even
stand out in the market.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
And another thing I'll just say really quickly,
before we get into the powerroutes, is one of the other
things to look out for and thisis an easy one.
Right Is when traditional mediacompanies which are all doing
now they're selling you digitalpackages outside of their
network, because we already havethat trust, you know, like you
bought TV from Joe for years andyou trust Joe, yeah Well, you
know.
Ask them those same questions,because they're also reselling

(54:34):
and they don't know.
And then, in an effort to stayrelevant, you know they're
selling things that they don'tknow about, and it's, it's, it's
.
You know it's scary for themtoo, but you have to.
That's why it's even moreimportant, because they don't
want to be unethical, right,they don't, but they don't know
any better.
To your point before, exactly.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
Exactly.
All right, let's get into thepower round.
I'll keep an eye on the chat incase any questions drop in.
I love this one.
It's what is the one metricmost businesses obsess over that
they should just ignore.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
You know it's, it's cost per click, cost per
thousand impressions and mostimportant thing is is it working
or not?
Yeah, I mean I'll spend ahundred dollars in cost per
thousand impressions If I cansee that there there's a, an ROI
that is within the cost perlead, cost per sale, cost per
sale that I'm after.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
I love it.
I always like asking thatquestion because it always opens
my eyes up to a metric andlooking at it in a different way
than I did before.
Including that one, so awesomeName.
Three questions every businessowner should ask before hiring a
digital marketing agency.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Well, that is you know how are they going to prove
that the impressions ran?
Going to prove that theimpressions ran, how do they
validate that clicks are real,from real people, not bots and I
think that those are probably.
And then, how are theyacquiring data?
Is it lists?
Yeah, those are it.

Speaker 1 (55:56):
I love it.
And then I think this is alsogood to know for our marketers
that are in the house listeningwhich is most of our Together
Digital community, so that theycan inform and educate
themselves and empowerthemselves to be good advocates
for responsible digitalmarketing, but then also good
stewards of their clients.
So I love this.
What's the minimum budget for asmall business that needs to
start seeing real success fromdigital marketing?

Speaker 2 (56:19):
I'd say $2,000 to 2,500.
We usually run, especially withsearch, we'll do a $1,000 to
$2,500.
We usually run, you know,especially with search.
You know we'll do a $1,500launch.
So if you're a new advertiser,for one campaign, well, yeah,
for well, not a campaign for thewhole account Okay, okay, and
and.
So if you're a new advertiser,you'll get $500 from Google.
When you, then we spend their500 and then we spend another

(56:43):
500 usually, and then that givesus a baseline of what is
possible.
And if we have to makeadjustments to landing page or
try, you know, creative, toincrease conversion rate, if I'm
not getting the conversion rateI'm after, then we stop there
for a minute, you know, and weregroup.
But then the rest should be onremarketing.
You must, must, must do notspend any money on search or
anything unless you have arobust remarketing program in

(57:04):
place I love it that's suchgreat advice.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
Well, and not only that well, because, yeah, it's
continuing to move them down thefunnel, but then also it's,
it's um, it's making the most ofthe opportunity.
And then I lost what I wasgoing to say, because it's so
friday, it was a good, I knowright, um.
So what was it we were talkingabout?
It wasn, wasn't the remarketing.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
It was your comment before that.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
Say that again.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
Budget.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
That's what it was.
Thank you, my friend Gosh.
You are the other half of mybrain today, girl.
So yeah, it is that it isbudget.
I think a lot of smallbusinesses, small to medium
sized businesses right, I'veworked with clients that are
like fortune 500 and like biggerand where they've got money to
kind of spare.
It almost seems like sometimescause they aren't scrutinizing.
But then when you are a smallbusiness, oftentimes you will

(57:51):
forego marketing altogether,which is such a detriment to you
and your business because theythink that it requires a shit
ton of money.
But you're talking 1500 to$2,000 that could actually, yeah
, even $500, $300.

Speaker 2 (58:06):
I have a client, we know Yaya Hawaii and we spend
like $300 on full funnelremarketing and we see it on TV.
You know people are and thenyou look bigger than you are.
You know if you're driving thetraffic to your site, you know
that's the mothership.
Then you know.
Then you know, follow thatperson.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
They're the one who's engaged.
It doesn't have to cost a lotof money, right, yeah, and don't
think you have to qualifyeverybody.
Look at it as you'redisqualifying.
You know you don't need, you'renot for everybody, it's not
always their time, their placeand the thing that you're not
the thing they need.
Ah, good conversation, allright.
Last question, and then we'llcall it a day Social media.
We haven't really touched onthis one very much.
We've talked a lot more aboutGoogle and search and things
like that and some programmatic.
But as far as social goes, howdo you feel about organic versus

(58:52):
paid?

Speaker 2 (58:53):
I would say paid is more.
You know, if you're wanting tostart something, you start with
paid because, again, the goal isto drive traffic to the website
and then to see if it's working.
No one's going to see your adin Facebook or no one's going to
see your organic content unlessyou pay for it anyway.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
Right, you have to boost that content.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
You've got to grow a fan base.
Right, it's pay to play, now,it's just like any.
And one of the most importantthings is they're trying to keep
that customer on their app.
Right, they don't want you toleave, right.
So, but with an ad, then atleast the focus is to get the
traffic to the site and so andit's a big time investment A lot
of clients, you know it gets sooverwhelmed with.

(59:31):
Well, everyone's doing socialmedia.
I've got to do it.
No, it's not the case, you knowit's a big time commitment you
around it.
It's a one little quick tiphere for everyone is if you're,
um, you know, the second youpost something, send it to all
the team, right, the faster thatyou get the likes, that tells

(59:54):
the algorithm to show more,right.
So a lot of people are like, oh,no one's liking our content.
Well, you don't need to likeyour content.
Hello, right, the faster, youknow you can get, get their
logins.
You like your content for you,you know.
But that's a way because theit's all based off of engagement
.
You know how it was.
Active engagement, that's alike, comment, share, watch or

(01:00:18):
hover, right.
But bottom line, you know, likeunless you're.
You're doing that.
You know that's a contentstrategy, but most people are in
social media because they wantto get traffic right.
Yeah, it's also.
It depends.
You know e-commerce sites.
It's a lot easier, right?
Social proofing is reallyimportant for them, and people
will be like you know shoppingand you know I am a big.

(01:00:39):
I buy so many things fromInstagram.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Everything I see, I'm like oh.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
I want that one, but for anything else that's not
shopping related, it's reallynot very often that it's
successful.

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
Yeah, Now, this has been so, so insightful and
really helpful.
I have so many more questions,but that's okay, we're going to
keep talking.
I did want to give anothermention to members.
If you're listening which Iknow you guys are Make sure that
you check out our social mediaengagement channel on Slack.
It's doing exactly what you'resaying and we basically ask

(01:01:16):
people if you're doing socialmedia and you need engagement,
post the post up here and we'll,if we've got two seconds, we'll
help you, give it a boost.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
And we do that for each other.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
That is wonderful, right, we're having a membership
period, right, exactly, I getthat boost.
So, yeah, definitely check outthat channel if you haven't
already members.
It's been a lot of fun and,honestly, I mean I get a nice
little quick dopamine hit when,like, one of our members does
some amazing content and I getto go support it and like it
because, yeah, I'm busy, don't?
I'm not always scrollingthrough every platform to
protect my sanity, so it's niceto just be directed to the other
good things anyways too.
So definitely check out thechannel.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
You don't even see it necessarily, exactly.
You know, think about like yourfriends, and they're like oh, I
went to Egypt for Christmas.
You're like, really, you didn'tsee my social media posts?
No, because if you don't likecomment or share, you're not
going to see it, right?
And so you know this, thinkingthat they're going to scroll and
find it.
Well, I guess again there's somany people competing for those

(01:02:11):
same eyeballs.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
Absolutely All right, anna.
We're just a little over time,so we're going to go ahead and
call it, although, like I said,this conversation can go on and
on because there's so much goodstuff to dig into.
I definitely recommend you allgo onto her website, check out
the downloadable content there,get her book and, anna, we look
forward to your masterclass herein the next few months.
Thank you again for your time.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Thanks so much for having me.
It's been really wonderful toshare.
And happy Aloha Friday andValentine's Day to everyone.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Yes, absolutely All right everyone.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
We're excited to see you allnext week.
Until then, keep asking, keepgiving and keep growing.
We'll see you later.