November 4, 2024 • 56 mins
In today’s episode, titled "Love, Loyalty & Branding," host Amy Vaughan sits down with branding powerhouse Deb Gabor, a 3-time best-selling author and renowned brand consultant. Deb shares her fascinating journey from a brandless upbringing to becoming an influential figure in the world of branding. We'll dive into her early experiences at McDonald's that sparked her interest, her career transitions from journalism to corporate marketing, and the pivotal moments that shaped her innovative branding methodologies.
Amy and Deb also reflect on the provocative concept of "branding as sex" and why it's crucial to focus on emotional satisfaction in branding. By the end of this episode, you'll understand how to elevate your brand to create deeper, more meaningful connections with your audience.
Stay tuned and get ready to be inspired to take your branding strategy to new heights. Let's grow together!
Connect with Deb:
Guest LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dgabor/
Guest Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/deb.gabor
Guest Website:https://www.solmarketing.com/
Episode Timestamps:
00:00 – Intro
00:46 - Childhood Without Brands, Later Fascinated by Branding
04:52 - Transition from Corporate Brand Marketing to Agency Mentorship
07:54 - Successful First Pitch Shapes Publicist's Career Path
12:01 - The Force of Irrational Loyalty: Catalyst for Brand Growth
14:53 - Tailoring Brands to Reach Distinctive Individuals
19:09 - Crafting Strategic Messaging Through Brand Swagger Inquiry
23:01 - Guiding Triumph: Embarking on the Hero's Branding Journey
28:05 - Branding: Fostering Desire and Emotional Attachments
30:35 - Transforming Narratives to Empower the Isolated IT Professional
33:43 - Brands Compete by Fulfilling Fundamental Needs
36:33 - Deeply Understanding and Personifying Your Target Audience
42:20 - Exploring Motivations for Unveiling New Financial Prospects
45:03 - Influencer Brands Cultivate Consistent, Meaningful Customer Devotion
51:44 - Buckman's: An Efficient Yet Unpleasant Tasting Cough Remedy
52:45 - Author Harnesses Peculiarities to Become Successful Speaker
55:22 - Transitioning from Unemployable to Consulting
56:20: Outro
Quote of the Episode:
"Compelling stories guide readers through self-discovery, inspiring a fresh outlook through this movement."- Deb Gabor
"Create a vivid image of your target individual. Let this persona guide your team, infusing a relentless focus into your marketing and sales strategies." - Deb Gabor
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
All right.
Hello everyone, and welcome toour weekly power lounge.
This is your place to hearauthentic conversations from
those who have power to share.
My name is Amy Vaughn and I amthe owner and chief empowerment
officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who work indigital and choose to share
their knowledge, power andconnections.
You can learn more about us andjoin the movement at
(00:32):
togetherindigitalcom, and todaywe are diving deep into the
psychology of brand loyalty withthe brilliant Deb Gabor.
She has recently led ourmasterclass on this exact topic
about how to turn casualcustomers into devoted brand
evangelists.
And Deb is more than a brandconsultant she is also a
(00:54):
three-time bestselling authorwhose innovative frameworks,
like the brand values pyramidand ideal customer archetypes,
have helped to revolutionize howcompanies connect with their
audiences.
Her recent insights on hackingMaslow's hierarchy for brand
growth have already helpedcountless organizations build
deeper, more meaningful customerrelationships, and today we're
(01:17):
going to explore that even moreon how to create that coveted,
irrational loyalty to the kindthat transforms customers into
passionate advocates whocouldn't imagine life without
your brand.
So, whether you are anentrepreneur, marketer, business
leader, you're in for a treatin learning how to build brands
(01:40):
that matter.
So very excited to have all ofyou here with us today, our live
listening audience.
We would love it.
If you have questions, pleaseshare them in the chat.
Deb, it is great to have youhere with us.
Again, thank you for joining us.
Well, thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
Fantastic, fantastic.
(02:00):
So I know some of our membersand folks have met you within
the community, but for those whohaven't, I'd love for you to
share a little bit more aboutyour backstory before we dive
into the fun topic of branding.
A little bit about how you gotinto this area and what it
before.
You became a three-timebestselling author and brand
(02:21):
evangelist.
How did you get?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
here.
I like to tell people that Igrew up in basically a brandless
existence.
So when I was a little kid mywhole family is from different
parts of Eastern Europe and sovery, very practical, down to
earth, pragmatic people whodidn't feel like we needed brand
name anything when we weregrowing up.
(02:45):
So no brand name clothing.
All my friends were wearingtheir Levi's jeans and their
Jordache jeans and playing withBarbies and Fisher Price things
and whatever, and my parentswere buying whatever was the
cheapest.
So I hadn't really been exposedto brands and actually really
didn't understand what brandswere or what brands meant, until
(03:07):
I was 16 years old and got adriver's license and was able to
go to McDonald's for the firsttime and have a McDonald's
hamburger cross my lips for thevery, very first time and always
was sort of fascinated by whatdoes this mean?
How could a brand command moremoney than something that was
(03:27):
unbranded or generic?
And was always sort offascinated by that.
And then grew I think I toldyou this before that I started
my career in journalism, like alot of marketers do, and I
worked in television, televisionnews, ran an assignment desk
and was a reporter, you know,did things like that, and I was
(03:50):
really involved in tellingstories that were designed not
just to inform people but trulyto move people, and there's a
strong intersection betweenstorytelling and branding and
there's, you know, actual brainscience behind it.
And so fast forward a littlebit to the point in my life at
which I couldn't make enoughmoney to support myself as a
(04:12):
journalist, which is very oftenthe case I ended up moving to a
corporate job, and my first jobI worked in a super, super
high-tech business.
My first real job was at AT&TBell Labs, which I was the lone
marketer in a sea of scientistsand technologists tasked with
(04:33):
the idea of trying to movepeople, heart, mind and wallet
to care about technologicalinnovations that were coming out
of the labs.
And really that's when I kindof got bit by this marketing and
branding bug.
And so, yeah, I grew up in thetechnology industry.
For the first half of my careerI worked in house, as we say,
(04:54):
like people who are agencypeople we talk about being
agency people are being in housepeople.
I was an in house person doingsort of brand leadership, brand
marketing jobs, productmarketing jobs, a variety of
things like that.
I had the pleasure and thegreat experience of working at a
tech startup that really iscredited with being the first
(05:16):
company to help consumers get onthe internet with 9,600 baud
modems, at US Robotics, and didmarketing and branding jobs
there and then ended up on theagency side of the business.
And when I was on the agencyside of the business, I had an
incredible.
I had an incredible experienceworking for a really, really
great mentor who who inspired meto think about brands in a
(05:40):
different way, and she was.
She was one of the people whohelped Steve Jobs launch the
Macintosh and go back and lookat you know these documentaries
and movies and stories aboutthat when that happened.
She's a pivotal figure in thatwhole story and so I worked with
her.
It was a PR company fortechnology companies and I was a
(06:05):
publicist, and so my job againwas telling stories.
But she had such a uniqueapproach to it which, instead of
telling stories about bits andbytes and how many hops to a
tier one network and throughputsand things like that, she was
able to turn those stories intounique stories of how people's
(06:25):
lives could be transformedthrough the use of technology.
And I learned right alongsideher, and that's what it wasn't
really.
I wouldn't call it branding,but that's sort of what inspired
me to pursue the whole practicemore.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Branding so somewhere between the Big Mac and the
woman who helped launch Appleyeah, exactly Somewhere.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
The Big Mac, my first Big Mac at 16.
And then, sometime in my early30s, working for this person who
launched the Macintosh.
And then, you know, frankly,for me like working on the
launch of a lot of like reallyexciting technology products
which you know, in the go-godays of the technology industry,
when you were, when you werebringing new technology to
market, often the stories thatyou were telling were about like
technology, right, you weretelling stories about, um, I
(07:13):
call it the itties, uh,reliability, availability,
scalability, manageability,flexibility, which, which is all
comparative.
We weren't really tellingstories about how technology
would impact humans and changetheir lives, which you know
really is more emotionallybonding.
And so, you know, I really sortof cultivated this practice of
(07:35):
changing the way stories aretold and the way that they
connect with human beings, whichyou know later on informs the
whole methodology that that Iuse and I talk about and I write
about for branding.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Excited to get to some of that later for sure.
What was the aha moment?
That sort of changed though howyou approach branding, would
you say.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
I think that it was.
I mean, I'd like to say it wasthe McDonald's hamburger.
Like, since the first McDonald'shamburger I had when I was 16
years old, I haven't had anotherone because it's disgusting.
The pivotal moment, I think, wasprobably the first time I
(08:20):
actually in that, in in thatpublicist job where I was
pitching something and was ableto get the attention of a
journalist not being a storyabout aviation, but being a
story of, of transformation, astory of like being able to
(08:49):
completely change the way peopleview and use air travel,
featuring the human beingsbehind it.
Like that was the moment that Iwas like, okay, this is what
wins, this is what gets people'sattention, that there truly is
(09:12):
story behind it and the storytakes the reader, the consumer
of that story, on this journeyof self-discovery.
And I was like this is not justa plane, this is not just like
an aviation business, this is amovement that truly has the
power to help people envision adifferent way to travel.
And I think that that was myhuge aha, was like when I really
(09:34):
, really, you know, when youland a cover story for Fortune
magazine about something in atechnology-driven marketplace
like that, it turns your headaround, it really gets your
attention.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Well, I wonder, did that sort of start to open your
eyes to that methodology thatyou've begun to introduce,
unlocking and hacking Maslow'shierarchy of needs for brand
building?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
A hundred percent, a hundred percent.
So, yeah, when I when I talkabout Maslow's hierarchy, I talk
about it in a couple of ways,in how it is related to branding
, and so, you know, those of uswho are familiar with Maslow's
hierarchy, we know that.
You know, the basic premisehere is that we are all on a
path to self actualization, selfactualization being the
(10:21):
pinnacle of Maslow's hierarchyor the top of that.
You know that pyramid construct, the idea that when we get
there, we're fulfilling ourhighest, best value to the world
.
We are, you know, sort oflevitating on a better plane
where we are free of judgmentfor ourselves, free of judgment
for others, we are fullyaccepting who we are.
(10:42):
And the idea is that, you know,being a fully self-actualized
individual is something that weall strive for, and so what we
eat, what we wear, what we drink, the airlines that we use to
travel, the cars that we drive,the technology that we buy for
ourselves and for our businesses, and things like that are all
part of our ascension ofMaslow's hierarchy, all part of
(11:07):
our ascension of Maslow'shierarchy, right?
And so, out of that, likereally trying to understand what
is the process that people aregoing through when they're
making decisions about what theybuy.
Without Maslow's hierarchy,things like Gucci shoes and
handbags wouldn't exist, right,you know when?
When you know full well thatyou can, that you can get a
plastic sack from Walmart tocarry your personal things,
(11:29):
versus paying $2,500 for a Guccihandbag.
For me it was really like I hadto peel back the layers of the
onion and try to understand.
Like, why is this even possible?
Like, what is it about that?
And so the hacking of Maslow'shierarchy?
It's been my life's work forprobably 25 years now.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah, there's so much of our identity that gets
caught up into that right.
It's like we're walking aroundand that's like our internal.
How we identify internally islike how we're projecting
externally with the things thatwe buy and wear.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, you mentioned earlier this notion of
irrational loyalty, and I defineirrational loyalty as this idea
that people are so indeliblybonded to a brand they'd feel
like they were cheating on it ifthey were to choose something
else.
That's very, very powerful,right?
Irrational loyalty is the thingthat allows brands to grow
rapidly and more profitably,charge more for products and
(12:26):
services, attract and retainwildly loyal fans and really
sort of stand out in a sea ofsameness.
There is nothing today that youcan buy that there isn't an
imitation of it, right?
And branding is the thing thatcreates these that you know,
creates these huge companieswhere the contribution of the
(12:47):
value of the brand is worth morethan the the products that they
sell, right?
And so, you know, this hasalways been really fascinating
to me, and, and this notion ofirrational loyalty really sort
of.
You know, you talk aboutidentity, brands becoming part
of who you are.
Irrational loyalty, the researchthat we do, we learned that the
(13:08):
underpinnings, thepsychological underpinnings of
this are to create thatcondition of irrational loyalty.
The brand has to become part ofthe person's identity, it has
to become part of who they areand it has to be indispensable
to them, meaning it'sirreplaceable, that you can't
trade it out for something else,and so there's so much
psychology there.
(13:28):
Yeah, people want to get upMaslow's hierarchy, but at the
end of the day, brands that getto the top of their own Maslow's
hierarchy, the ones that arefully self-actualized.
They become part of the peoplewho use them and they become
irreplaceable to them.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Right, oh, I love it.
There's so much good stuff tokind of unpack there.
I have kind of like a follow-upquestion to that then like in
what ways for people who aretrying to, who maybe don't feel
like they have they have a brandor a product or service that
meets a need and they don't feellike they're elevated, but they
(14:05):
want to kind of maybe increasetheir pricing or to elevate
their brand what are some waysin which they could do that by
kind of using this hack?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, I break it down to like four basic things and
I'll share that with everybodyhere.
I just give this methodologyaway for free.
Really, what you're talkingabout, amy, is helping people
who have a business, a product,a service, maybe even themselves
, that they're trying to brandand they want to create more
(14:39):
sort of financial goodness forthemselves, open up new
financial territory, open up newconceptual territory.
What they need to do is actlike the best brands in the
world, and the best brands inthe world they do four things.
Number one they aim their brandat a singular, ideal,
archetypal customer, and that isthe person who is most highly
(14:59):
predictive of their success,right?
The one who is going to pay themost for what you are bringing
to the table, right?
So, aiming your brand at oneperson, an archetypal human
being for whom your brand ismade, and being very, very
focused on that person, knowingeverything about them, their
values, their beliefs.
You know what keeps them up atnight, what are their attitudes,
(15:22):
their behaviors, what are theirchallenges, what makes them
feel sexy, all of those kinds ofthings.
So that's number one.
Number two they become part ofthat person's self-expression,
part of their identity.
They understand how they becomepart of that person.
Number three if you have abusiness and you want to elevate
that and you really want tocreate a brand that creates a
(15:45):
rational loyalty, you're notjust different, you're unique,
you're singular.
This is where brands get intotrouble.
We always want to compare whatwe're selling to everything else
, and that's the itties and theerrs.
It's smaller, it's faster, it'sbigger, it's thinner, it's
thicker, it's taller, all ofthose kinds of things that just
(16:11):
opens you up to be compared toeveryone else, meaning that your
best features are imitable.
When you really focus onbuilding a brand that's unique,
then you can get to the top ofthat Maslow's pyramid for brands
, right, you can become fullyself-actualized as a brand.
So, number one aim at an idealarchetypal customer.
Number two become part of thatperson's self-concept.
Number three don't just bedifferent, but be unique.
(16:33):
That's the thing that makes aPorsche a Porsche and not a
Mazda, even though both thingsfulfill the same basic
functional benefits, right?
And then, finally, the bestbrands in the world.
They do this essential thingthey make their brand about
their customer and not aboutthem, right?
Yep, I do this diagnostic withbrands all the time.
(16:54):
I say you know what?
Go to your mobile phone andopen up your company website and
if the first word on thewebsite is the company name or
the word we, you're doing ittotally wrong, right, right.
Think of your brand as beingheroic to another hero.
Like the customer gets to bethe hero in this scenario, not
(17:14):
you.
So so you know, when people aretrying to open up more
territory for their brandfinancial, conceptual, attract
more customers, it's about thatrelentless focus, but then also
really taking on thecharacteristics of the best
brands in the world.
And those are the four thingsright there.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
I love it and the reason why I threw that question
is because I know we have a lot, of, a lot of our listening
audience are women who own andrun their own small businesses
and in companies and they tendto undercharge for what they do
and or the products and theservices they sell.
And it's like how do weencourage them to position
themselves in such a way thatthey can to sell to their
(17:52):
highest you know, most idealclient?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
So the ideal clients are the ones who are going to
pay what you're charging, right?
So if you have a small servicesbased business, if you find
yourself over-servicing clients,it is because they are probably
not the ideal clients, right?
Ideal clients are people whoappreciate what you are doing.
They need and can use what youare doing.
(18:14):
When you do this profile of theideal customer archetype, you
should be able to see as theycome towards your business.
You should be able to see thatthey exhibit at least 75% of the
characteristics of clients whoare most ideal, like I can see
it from miles away.
Most importantly, I can see whois not my ideal customer and
when I know that I like.
(18:35):
Sometimes we consciously takebusiness from someone who's not
our ideal customer.
I run a services business.
Sometimes you got to keep thelights on, right.
You're like this is not ideal.
At least I'm conscious about it, I understand it and I can
mitigate the risk, right.
But it gives me the ability tohave choice, and choice is so
important when you're runningyour own business, otherwise,
(18:56):
why do it?
Speaker 1 (18:57):
right.
Why do this?
Exactly, exactly, oh, love itso much.
Thank you, deb.
Also, in your masterclass, youmentioned three key questions
that brands should askthemselves.
I would love it if you couldwalk our podcast audience
through those as well.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Oh, absolutely so.
Like I just gave you theexplanation of the four things
that the best brands in theworld do, number two, three and
four can be summed up in thesethree questions.
I call them the brand swaggerquestions, and I always tell
people if you want to just getstarted in branding, try to
answer these questions right.
And the other hint about thisis that, through answering these
questions, you are formulatingthe foundation of your strategic
(19:36):
brand messaging.
The first question, which isthe becoming part of someone's
self-image, becoming part oftheir identity, is to answer
this question what does it sayabout my customer or my client
that they use my brand?
Not what does it say about themthat they use these widgets,
(19:58):
but what does it say about themthat they use me?
So, for instance, I have aresearch, strategy and marketing
firm for B2B technology andprofessional services companies.
What it says about them is thatthey are no nonsense,
innovative, thoughtful marketingleaders who don't have time for
BS, who want to be pushed, notjust to do the best they can,
(20:23):
but whatever it takes for themto win.
It says that they have a shortrunway and a lot of attention is
on them to get things right.
That's what it says about themthat they work with me and the
company that I represent.
So it's really important thatit's not what does it say about
them that they use an outsidemarketing firm, but what does it
say about them that they use me?
(20:44):
So that's question number one,right?
So what does Right?
Right, I'm reliable.
I like to help my friends move.
I may be a little bit rugged, Igot a dog.
I'm from Texas, right?
You have a story about me,right?
(21:05):
So that's question number one.
Question number two is thatquestion about uniqueness, and
that question is so simple toask but the hardest one to
answer this is where I earn allmy money, right, what is the one
thing that people get from mybrand?
They get from me.
They get from my company, theyget from my product.
(21:25):
What's the one thing they getfrom me that they don't get from
anyone else?
And so back to the examplewhere I was explaining about the
company that I run.
The one thing they get from usyeah, they can get marketing
services anywhere.
Right, they can get research,brand strategy, marketing
services.
I always joke around and sayyou can't swing a cat over your
head and not hit 150 otherpeople who do exactly what we do
(21:47):
.
Right, they can hire anyone forthose things.
But the one thing they get fromus they don't get from anyone
else is the proverbial kick inthe ass.
They get a kick in the pants.
They get propelled to dowhatever it takes.
Right, they come to usspecifically for the kick in the
pants.
We are not for everyone.
Believe me, I've never gonethrough a brand strategy
(22:09):
engagement that didn't makepeople really, really
uncomfortable and make peoplefeel like they want to quit
sometimes.
Right, Because the work ofbranding is hard and my goal
with my organization, like ourBHAG, is to take a disruptive
dark horse brand and turn theminto a top five most valuable
global brand.
So that's Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook and Tencent.
(22:32):
Those are your top mostvaluable global brands.
My goal is to take someone thatno one knows and make them one
of those, right?
I'm not looking to beeverybody's favorite marketing
agency, right?
So the one thing you get fromus is the kick in the pants.
So really really getting intothat singularity is super
important.
And then that third question,the third of those brand swagger
(22:52):
questions.
It's this simple how do I makemy customer the hero in their
own story?
They're the ones who get tostand on the top of the hill.
They plant the flag, they makethe declaration, they get the
medal, they get the trophy, theyget the girl, they get the boy,
Whatever it is that they want.
At the end they win.
How do I get them there?
And so, when you take thosethree questions, what does it
(23:15):
say about a person that they usemy brand?
What's the one thing they getfrom me that they don't get from
anyone else?
And how do I make them a hero?
Can you imagine that theanswers to those three questions
formulate like the strategicunderpinnings of your entire
brand story?
Right, it's taken me a longtime to like really refine this
(23:36):
methodology, but if you, if yougo through that it, it helps you
humanize the brand and it helpsyou tap into those deep
emotional connections that getyou up above the fray of bits
and bytes and speeds and feedsand it is an ers.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, I agree, I agree.
I did this little piece a whileback about the so many brands
and branding it was always aboutand it would always kind of
honestly piss me off.
It was just like, oh, brandingis guidelines and fonts and
colors and tone of voice and Iwas like no, it's not TOV, it's
(24:15):
POV, it's a point of view.
What point of view do you have?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
It's your unique point of view, inclusive of your
customer right, and I alwaystell people that it is the sum
total of all of the emotionalconnections that you make with
everyone all around your brandand it's a construct that's made
up of two big pieces.
One is the brand identitythat's a piece that you own and
you drive and you control andtone of voice and fonts.
And One is the brand identitythat's a piece that you own and
(24:39):
you drive and you control, andtone of voice and fonts and
colors is the articulation ofthat.
But it isn't that right.
And then brand image is thepart that's reflected back to
you by your audience and it's arelationship brand identity and
brand image.
If those two things aredisconnected, then you don't
have a brand, you have a, youhave a broken brand.
So you're a hundred percentright, but you know it is every
(25:04):
point of emotional connectionbetween you and anyone that you
want to move heart, mind andwallet.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Agreed, agreed, yeah, yeah, so much, so much good
stuff into there, but I'll keepus moving.
Oh goodness, cause I did a talkearlier this year, too, on
brand reputation and customerperception and all those things
too, and how all of thatconsistency is such a necessity.
It's like, yeah, there's a lotof good stuff in there, but you
were also talking about thatswift kick in the pants, and I
(25:34):
love it because, again, likeagain, what's something I love
about your style?
And you have a book titled uh,branding is sex.
So yeah, like you know we justgo straight for it.
So it definitely obviouslyturned some heads, catches some
attention.
I'm kind of curious like whatinspired that comparison?
And, yeah, divulge a little bitabout that book and what people
can expect from from that.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you, like, what's the meaning
of that, and then I'll tell youwhere it originated, because
it's a really funny story.
So you know, we were talkingabout Maslow's hierarchy, right,
and one time I was like reallytrying to break this down for
somebody, this idea of what doesit feel like to be fully
self-actualized, and in order tosort of like permeate this
(26:17):
person's like thick skull, I waslike do you know what it feels
like to have a day so great thatall you want to do is take a
roll in the hay?
Right?
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
You know, like that feeling that you have the world
on a string, you've got life bythe proverbial cojones, whatever
, like you've got this, you havethis incredible, have this
incredible powerful feelingright.
Like that nothing can go wrong.
That's the moment in which youreally really feel fully
self-actualized and you know youkind of want to go for it,
(26:50):
right?
You know, and I told this storyI was like, yeah, it's like you
get in your car and you're onyour way to work.
You make every light, right,you have green lights all the
way.
You arrive at the office, youget the front parking space, you
walk in the door, you get toyour desk and your nine o'clock
meeting is canceled.
So you finally have time to getthrough all of those backed up
emails and clear your desk andmaybe read a little bit of the
(27:13):
newspaper and whatever.
Then you win a big deal.
You have a great lunch wheresomebody else picks up the tab.
Then on the way home, you makeall the lights.
You get home, your spouse hasprepared dinner for you, have
the kids in the bath already,you get to spend time with the
whole family and they're allclean, right, and the kids go to
(27:33):
bed.
And then you're like, wow, wow,wow, right, so.
So everybody like understandswhat that feeling is like.
Well, that's the role ofbranding is to give people that
feeling, right, it truly is togive people that feeling.
And you know, people ask meI've been interviewed literally
hundreds of times about thisbook, right, and people ask me.
(27:57):
They're like oh okay, so areyou saying that sex sells?
No, no, no.
I'm not talking about beingsexy or making brands sexy.
I'm talking about making peoplewant to feel like they want to
have sex.
Right, Does that make sense?
So all branding boils down tolike making people have that
(28:19):
great feeling, whether it'sthrough the purchase of a new
iPhone or, you know, it's theselike really cute eyeglasses that
I like.
You know what I mean.
It's like making people want tohave that feeling Right.
So that's the meaning ofbranding is sex, and you know my
publisher for that book was theone who encouraged me to name
(28:40):
it, that I can't remember whatthe working title was, but he
was like you absolutely need tocall it that.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Now it's been problematic.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
I live in Salt Lake City, utah, and I've been asked
to speak at places like can youjust call that book branding?
I'm like, no, I cannot callthat book branding Right, but
I'm a little bit, you know, sortof like an in your face kind of
person, so.
So that's really what themeaning is.
It really is about givingpeople that feeling that they
want to take a role in the hay.
The second part of that is thestory of where this came from.
(29:08):
So I told you I grew up in thetechnology industry and that
great job that I had, where Iworked for this incredible
mentor who, you know, ran the PRcompany for technology
companies.
One of our clients one of ourclients, very, very, very
well-known leader at a very,very well-known, very famous
technology company was launchinga server operating system which
(29:31):
, frankly, is not very sexy,right, and the server operating
system was being launched to thefinancial services industry and
government two very unsexyindustries and all he wanted to
talk about, all the CEO wantedto talk about, was like bits and
bytes and speeds and feeds andhow many hops to a tier one
network and you know how manyones, and zeros and you know,
(29:53):
like the itties and the errs, orwhat they used to call this
company RASM, rasm, r-a-a-s-m.
Reliability, availability,scalability, manageability
you're glazing over.
Can you imagine an audience ofanalysts and media at a launch
like salivating over reliability, availability, scalability,
manageability?
(30:13):
No, so it was my job to changehis perception and his
storytelling to really put theircustomer in the center of the
story.
And boy is this guy thick headed.
He was really really reallythick headed and I was at my
wit's end, and this was during amedia training.
(30:33):
Right, I was really at my wit'send.
He was sitting in a rollingchair, like what I'm sitting in
right here, and I took anotherrolling chair and I got up real
close to him.
We were like knee to knee and Iwas like, listen, we have to
tell the story in a differentway.
We have to put that it guy,that government it guy who sits
in a windowless office with likeno one to talk to all day,
(31:01):
except for all the people whoare calling him to let him know
that the servers down, thattheir PCs aren't working, that
their workstations aren'tfunctioning, whatever.
We have to get that guy laid.
How does this service serveroperating system get that guy
laid?
And he pushed his chair backand he rolled like halfway
across the room and then he toldme a story.
He was like this happens, andthen this happens and this
happens.
(31:21):
And I said this is what we needto say to the media and those
analysts, right?
And in that moment, like when Iasked him, like and it was in a
, it was in a moment offrustration.
I was like how does the serveroperating system get this guy
laid?
When everything opened up tohim, I was like I was compelled
to share that with the worldbecause I had had my big aha and
(31:42):
I thought, for all of thesepeople who don't understand the
power of story, the power ofconnection, the power of
emotions in moving people totake action, I can make this so
easy for them.
So that's where Branding a Sexwas born.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
That's so funny.
Well, as you were kind ofsharing earlier, there's the
story of going through the dayin those moments and those
little moments.
To me, what I was hearing, too,was just satisfaction, right,
that little sense ofsatisfaction throughout the day
and that sense of peace andthings are going my way and
(32:21):
trust.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
And in the IT world, like that totally makes sense.
Now, you know, one of thebrands that I'm working with
right now is really aboutindulgence and decadence, right,
and so it's more than a momentof satisfaction.
But understanding those likemicro levers that you need to
pull.
What is the difference betweensatisfaction and indulgence,
(32:43):
right?
What is the difference betweenbeing satisfied or feeling
deserving and discerning, right?
That is the essence of branding, is like getting to.
They are like little microlevers, right, and so you picked
up from the story yeah, likethat's satisfaction.
That's, for a brand, aboutsatisfaction, being satisfied.
Some brands are about elation.
Some brands are about makingpeople feel confident or feeling
(33:06):
powerful, or feeling likethey're in control.
Understanding those things, andreally the magic is
understanding, specifically foryour brand.
What is it that you do, unlikeany other brand in the category?
That's where the magic is.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Well, and I love it that you always take it up a
notch.
You kick it up a notch too,because I think we've become, as
a society, a bit desensitized.
So I think it's not enough tojust say like it's about
satisfaction.
You have to elevate it, right,because it's like it wasn't
enough for you in that moment togo knee-to-knee to him and be
like how do we make people feelsatisfied?
No, it's got to be.
How do I get this guy late?
Speaker 2 (33:46):
competitor in that space is trying to make that guy
feel satisfied there, yeah,everyone is trying to make them
feel, you know, confident,accomplished, satisfied, safe,
secure, right.
So this is, this is the thing.
So Maslow's hierarchy forbrands, it's a pyramid.
It has three parts.
At the bottom are what is theante to get into the game?
(34:06):
What does the brand need tobring to the table in order to
be considered a that in thatcategory?
If we're talking about serveroperating systems, we're talking
about reliability, availability, scalability, manageability,
flexibility, uptime, security,safety, all of those kinds of
things.
Right, you don't differentiateon the basis of that.
That's like selling ice creamby saying it's cold and it's
sweet.
We don't do that right, in themiddle of that pyramid are
(34:29):
emotional benefits.
Emotional benefits are thingsmakes him feel secure, makes him
feel accomplished, makes himfeel smart, makes him feel savvy
, makes him feel secure and allof these different things safe,
et cetera.
Emotional benefits are notenough, because I would say any
server operating system shouldmake people feel that way, right
(34:51):
?
Yep, if we want to reallypermeate someone's heart and
move them and bond with thememotionally, we need to make
them feel exhilar emotionally.
We need to make them feelexhilarated.
We need to make them feel yes,you got to go beyond that
Exactly, and so the best friendsin the world are the ones that
push through that to trulydifferentiate themselves on
(35:13):
characteristics that can't beimitated by anyone else.
And it's only those emotionalthings, a server operating
system that makes people feelexhilarated.
Is there such a thing, right?
I want to find it now.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
It's out there somewhere.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Interestingly, this company has been bought and sold
so many times.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
I don't even know what it's called anymore.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
In the day.
It was one of the big things,so yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Oh goodness, all right, let's talk a little bit
about the ideal customerarchetype.
I love all your frameworks.
I think they are truly helpfuland powerful and, again, it's
something you can take and startto use right away.
What about this framework makesit so powerful?
Speaker 2 (35:54):
So every business strategy methodology talks about
something like the corecustomer, right?
They're like, okay, who is yourcore customer?
And you're like, oh, I workwith medium-sized businesses
with revenues between $10million and $100 million.
I am here to tell you thatbusinesses at $10 million of
revenue and $100 million ofrevenue, they have different
kinds of problems, right?
(36:15):
Right, the ideal customerarchetype is about honing in on
the exact human being who yourbrand is made for.
It is a branding exercise, not amarketing exercise and this is
really, really important becauseI get a lot of pushback on this
but you build your brand forthe ideal archetypal customer.
That's why it's an archetyperight and it really it goes
(36:38):
beyond demographic andfirmographic characteristics to
help you identify, like who isthe exact human being that you
are made for and who is made foryou.
I make my clients draw thisright.
We draw a picture right and wereally hone in on, if you're
selling to other businesses, whois the decision maker within
the business.
That is the most importantdomino that you need to knock
(36:59):
down.
You build the brand for thepeople who use it right and
figure out who is that humanbeing, what is their job title?
What does their day look like?
What are their challenges like?
What do they wear to work?
Are they wearing gym shoes?
Are they wearing work boots?
Are they wearing wingtips?
Are they wearing heels?
Where do they go on vacation?
What makes them feel sexy?
What makes them sit upright inbed and sweat ice cubes?
(37:23):
What are their goals, theirvalues and beliefs?
It's knowing everything aboutit, and so when I make clients
draw it, if they have a bigheart, you draw them with a big
red heart in the middle of it.
If they have a big fat brainand they're like very
intellectual, draw them with abig brain.
They have a lot of money undertheir control.
Show them holding a big bag ofmoney.
But when you go through thisexercise, the most important
thing it does is it shows youwho you are not for, right.
So we talked about, you know,people who are running their own
(37:44):
small businesses, the peoplewho are maybe listening to this
right now.
You can probably look acrossyour business and think about
who is the person that I wouldlove to serve, over and over and
over again.
When you create the archetypeof who that person is and you
memorialize this for you andyour team and you bring that
(38:04):
person to your meetings, you usethat person when you're
thinking about all right, mymarketing or my sales efforts
and things like that, you getthis relentless focus almost to
the exclusion of everyone else.
I'd like to give this littlecase study.
I worked with a mortgage broker, actually here in Salt Lake
City before I moved here.
They're a very, very largecompany.
(38:25):
I think that they're one of thetop mortgage brokers in all of
the United States and they onlyoperate in about five states and
they're headquartered here inUtah and we were going through
an ideal customer archetypeissue.
They were finding that theywere seriously over over
servicing people and think youknow their team was ready to
(38:45):
quit.
They also had a very, veryunique business model that,
instead of commissioned loanofficers, their loan officers
were on salary, and this wasreally important because their
loan officers were incentivizedby different things than, like,
pure play sales oriented loanofficers.
So when you have sales orientedloan officers this was an
(39:07):
interesting nuance that I knewnothing about when you have
sales oriented loan officers,they're incentivized.
They're incentivized by money.
They're incentivized to makethe cost of those loans more so
that they make more money right,which adds time and complexity
to the home loan process.
These guys were like we canshorten the home loan process by
10 days and save the averagefamily buying like a $500,000
(39:28):
house $7,000 on their mortgage,right?
So who is the ideal customerfor this?
We have a conversation aboutthis because they're like we're
having a real hard timeconnecting in the marketing
process and their messaging wasmuddy and they had a real value
proposition and they didn't knowwho their ideal customer was
(39:48):
and I said who's your idealcustomer?
And they said it's a couple.
I'm like, all right, tell meabout this couple.
They're like, well, it's a manand a woman and they're buying a
house that's about $500,000 inthe Salt Lake Valley.
And we really probed into thisand, looking at their business
(40:10):
model, this idea that they havethis unique model that can save
thousands of dollars and days onthe home loan cycle, which
saves real human beings a lot ofmoney and a lot of
consternation, I was like,within this couple, who do you
need to influence?
So then I asked questions about,in the home buying process,
who's in charge?
Right, and you know, they saidlargely the woman of these
traditional relationships is theone who's driving the home
(40:31):
buying process.
Right, she determines where youlive, how you live, what the
house looks like, the location,you know, those kinds of things.
She has a sacred bond with thereal estate agent, right, and
you know, I remember the firsttime I bought a home, I asked my
real estate agent for areferral to a mortgage loan
broker.
My real estate agent gave me abusiness card and I went
(40:53):
directly to that person.
I didn't do any shopping around, I didn't do any second
opinions, right, and so when wedeeply probed into this
relationship to understand theprocess and who needed to be
influenced, we identified thatthe man in these and these were
very traditional man-womanrelationships right, the man in
(41:13):
this scenario who we named Brian.
He was the ideal customerarchetype because he was the one
person who could break thesacred bond between the woman in
the relationship and the realestate agent who hands over the
business card of here's, themortgage loan broker.
We anointed Brian the familyCFO.
We made him the idealarchetypal customer who could
(41:38):
change the whole trajectory ofthe home buying process by
suggesting they get a secondopinion, and this opened up so
much financial territory forthem.
I drive around here on I-15 inSalt Lake City.
I see their billboards.
Their billboards are targetedright at Brian and they say get
a second opinion.
You get a second opinion for amedical thing, you get a second
(42:01):
opinion for, you know, a carrepair, get a second opinion on
your mortgage.
And they're aimed directly atthis homegrown family CFO, right
.
And so this is where that idealcustomer archetype is so
powerful, because it brings yourelentless focus.
If you're marketing to a couple, who are you talking to?
(42:27):
It's too broad, right.
So, going all the way back tothe first time that maybe you
were in the school play infourth or fifth grade, right,
you know, and and you, you havesomeone that you're you're
supposed to be talking to andthe, the director of the school
play or the school drama teachersays what's your motivation?
You know you have to focusschool play.
Or the school drama teachersays what's your motivation?
You have to focus on thatperson.
What's their motivation?
What are they trying to get?
What are you trying to get?
So that's where the idealcustomer archetype can open up
(42:49):
all kinds of new financialterritory.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
That's a great example, and I am telling you
drawing a picture of it, beingable to visualize it, being able
to close your eyes and see itin your third eye is magical.
I know it when I see it.
More importantly, I know when Idon't see it.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Exactly, yeah, yeah, that's always a way to get a
marketer to flip a table is tellthem that you know we're for
everybody.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
It's my favorite, like when I go into a new
business scenario and they'relike.
I ask them, I'm like, who areyou selling this to, who is this
for?
And they're like well, really,anyone can use this.
All right, I mean those of uswho are marketers like, how much
, how, how effective are yougoing to be at marketing?
You know so.
So I try to get people to thinkabout it.
(43:34):
Their audiences like a seriesof concentric circles, or even
like it's a fried egg on a plate, the yolk like this very, very
dense, rich portion of the egg.
Here is your ideal archetypalcustomer, who the brand is made
for.
You're going to still get thewhite.
They're interested, they'reinspired, they're aspiration,
(43:56):
they're aspiring to be like that.
Don't market to the people whoare the plate.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Right, yeah, no, exactly, you can't eat the plate
.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
I always tell people this you can't eat the plate.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
You can't eat the plate and you're not going to
get, like you said, thatirrational loyalty from the
plate.
You're not going to get theirrational loyalty and love from
the people.
It's just not the idealcustomer.
Yeah, I agree, I love this somuch.
All right, let's talk about anexample of a brand that really
nails that emotional connectionsthat we're talking about here.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Yeah, so, interestingly, a brand that I
have recently become obsessedwith, which I am not the target
audience for, but I've kind ofbecome obsessed with it just
because I've been doing someresearch for another client
where this brand was sort ofinvolved.
It is a streetwear brand calledLonely Ghost, and so the
younger people among us might,might, know what what this brand
(44:52):
is, but I, you know, I was likeI need to understand what is
the fascination?
Speaker 1 (44:56):
for this brand.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
This brand completely nails it and and they create a
rational loyalty, like theycharge for.
I went to one of their storesthe other day here in Utah.
They can charge $35 for at-shirt and nobody even gives it
a second look because it has,like, the little lonely ghost
logo on it and they do such agood job of like becoming part
(45:20):
of the person who uses it.
So this is a brand that wasstarted by an influencer, right.
She was like sort of making herown streetwear kinds of things.
She got big.
She's, you know, she's a madsensation on Tik TOK on
Instagram.
Then that expands into storesand things like that.
So what I love about this brandand the reason that I feel like
it does such a good job ofcreating a rational loyalty, is
that the brand experience isconsistent and meaningful 360
(45:48):
degrees around the brand.
So whether you consume thisbrand by going to their
e-commerce site, you consumethis brand via shoppable
Instagram, for instance, orTikTok you know TikTok posts or
whatever or you go physicallyinto a retail store which their
retail store.
It's the coolest thing I'veever seen and I'm like I'm
clearly not the brand for this.
(46:09):
I'm not the ideal customer forthis.
It's like somebody mydaughter's age, right, but I'm
just fascinated by it.
You go into their retail store,which is it's a converted
grocery store and they call itLonely Ghost Grocery and it's
and it's set up almost like MeowWolf style, like it's super,
super cool, but it's adestination and it's a 360
(46:30):
degree experience.
This tiny little brand out ofProvo, utah, has turned into an
international phenomenon thathas been able to do
collaborations with Ferrari,with Wendy's, with Jennings ice
cream.
They have like all of theseincredible.
They have a cult following.
(46:54):
It is like literally a cultfollowing, and whenever a brand
has been able to engender thatlike cult-like following, like
that really attracts me.
On the other side, anotherbrand that I've become really
obsessed with and it's sort oflike a joke between me and my
partner Like I, I love theBobcat brand and I'm talking
about, like you know, bobcats,like those little tiny
bulldozers that you can get to,you know, level your backyard
(47:15):
and all that kind of stuff andwhatever you know, I have this
idea that I want to have abobcatting business where I
teach women to drive bobcats.
I want bobcats to like do acollaboration with me and give
me bobcats that I can paint pinkand put little cat ears on and
whatever.
But I did a deeper dive to likereally understand, like, what
is it about this?
What is it about this brand?
And they're very, very clear.
(47:36):
They're like they are forpeople who want to create change
, who want to power throughthings.
And it's really interestingbecause you have John Deere
right, which is all about be theenvy of your neighbors, which
is a competitor to that.
They make a similar product.
You have Caterpillar, which islike you know, use stuff for
(47:58):
your backyard.
That's just like what the bigguys are using, you know, out on
the out on the interstate rightnow and whatever.
But Bobcat is like in thiscategory of of construction
equipment, they are very firmlyfocused on that individual guy,
who, who, who is like ruggedlychanging the way things look,
(48:21):
the way things look, the waythings feel, making change.
They do a great job.
They have wonderful casestudies on their website, like
one of them that I watched theother day.
It was the construction companythat was serving this, this
home building organization andthe home building organization.
Their mission was to buildaffordable homes for real people
(48:43):
and they sort of they.
They followed the path, theylet their customers tell the
story of how did Bobcat enableus to make housing more
affordable for these people?
Right, like, truly like thatthrough line.
So so this idea of creatingthese conditions of irrational
(49:04):
loyalty, they exist for consumerbrands like streetwear, brands
like lonely ghost, but also forindustrial brands like Bobcat
and they, they, you know, and sobrands that are able to execute
at that level where the brandexists in 360 degrees.
Those are the ones that I'mobsessed with right now.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Yeah, yeah Again, and I love that you brought it back
to consistency.
It's so, so key Again becausethat expectation is there with
consumers, that experience frombeginning to end.
It is your brand promise.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
I always talk about the brand promise of the
Ritz-Carlton right.
We are ladies and gentlemenserving ladies and gentlemen.
That is true of every singletouch point you have with the
brand.
They are sort of like thepeople of the most perfectly
constructed and delivered brandpromise.
We can all take that into everyaspect of our businesses.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Absolutely, absolutely.
This has been so much fun.
We are coming up on time, so Ijust want to go through our
power round questions reallyquickly, because we have some
fun ones that I really think ourlisteners would be interested
in hearing from you.
Hopefully they're not toochallenging, because this one
especially, it's going to behard to pick, deb.
(50:12):
So let's hear it.
What is your favorite brand ofall time?
My?
Speaker 2 (50:17):
favorite brand of all time probably, believe it or
don't is Salesforce.
My daughter, but yeah, I just,I just, you know as a disruptor.
They went to market withdisruptive tech CEOs and I think
(50:37):
that that's legendary.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
Yeah, I just um.
Was it sales blazer?
Is that there was the um newproject they just launched.
For, like all of theireducation and training, I just
met the young woman who helpedlaunch that project at content
marketing world.
So, she's going to be a guesthere soon, on the podcast too.
Awesome.
Most overrated branding trend.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
Most overrated branding trend.
Um, I'm going to'm gonna say uh, publicity stunts yeah, fair
enough.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Fair enough.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
One book every marketer should have to read, of
course, besides your own um,yeah, you can read any of my
three books, but, um, a bookthat I recommend to people.
It's called pink goldfish.
It's written by my friend, daverendall and his partner Stan
Phelps, and really the idea isthat what makes you weird makes
you wonderful.
I love that.
What makes you weird makes youwonderful, so, like leaning very
(51:32):
far into the stuff that isunique to you.
I talk about uniqueness all thetime.
Just one quick example fromthat book that's really
inspiring.
Are you familiar with thisbrand, buckman's cough syrup?
It's a brand in Canada.
I don't think we have it herein the US.
Sounds kind of familiar, butyeah the one characteristics
that Buckman's has is that ittastes like utter crap, right.
(51:53):
So you have kids.
If you have to buy your kidslike Robitussin or Trinic like,
one of the standard features isit has to like it's red or it's
purple and it tastes likebubblegum, cherry or grape,
right, it has to have a flavor.
Basically, they've said youknow what Like that stuff
doesn't matter.
What really matters is that itworks.
And so if you ask anyone inCanada what's the most effective
(52:14):
cough syrup, they'll tell youit's Buckman's and it tastes
like crap, Right.
And so he gives that example.
He gives like tons and tons ofexamples of brands that lean
really hard into places wherethey have sort of gone against
what is standard equipment fortheir category to really really
stand out.
So I love that book and it'sand it's a book that a lot of
(52:36):
people don't expect in marketing.
But, um, inspiring examplesPink goldfish, it's called.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Pink goldfish.
I love it.
And the weird is wonderful.
That's a very popular saying inour household, so I love it.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
Well, so the guy who wrote the book, he is, I want to
say he's like six foot five andin his I met him on the
speaking circuit and in hisspeaking engagements he wears
bright pink pants and pinkglasses and everything is pink
and all this kind of stuff.
You know he's, he's he alwaystells this story.
He wrote another really goodbook which is more it's more for
(53:09):
humans than it is for brandsand businesses, but it's called
the freak factor and it's kindof the same thing, and he always
tells the story about how whenhe was growing up he was a kid
you know his report cards cominghome from school they said Dave
, dave talks too much and hedistracts and entertains the
people in the classroom, and soyou know he leaned really hard
into that and he's like well,I'm going to have a career as a
professional speaker then.
(53:29):
So yeah, these ideas of likewhat makes you a freak as a
brand, as a human, are thethings that you should lean
really hard into it, becausethat really points to this idea
of like what's the one thingpeople get from me that they
don't get from anyone else?
Speaker 1 (53:43):
So that's the reason why I love his stuff so much.
Sounds like my kind of guy.
I said that when I announced mypodcast here.
I was like hey to all thoseteachers that said Amy talks too
much.
Guess what.
Now I got a podcast and I getpaid to speak.
Exactly, you and me both be tospeak.
I love it, I love it, I love it.
All right, last one, and thenwe'll wrap it up best, because
you have had an amazing careertoo.
(54:04):
I would love to hear and you'vehad some great mentors, as we
mentioned earlier in the episodewhat was the best career advice
you've ever been given.
Speaker 2 (54:11):
The best career advice I'd ever been given was
don't sell your time.
And I mean that like reallyreally transformed the
(54:34):
trajectory of my, my career andreally got I love it.
Think I told you before I wasan accidental entrepreneur.
I started out just doingconsulting, right, and I was
selling my time.
Now I made a buttload of moneyselling my time, but it wasn't
until I realized that I couldsell a vision.
I could sell against the visionof what the world could look
(54:54):
like when I solved a problem andthat was worth far more money
than selling my time for 250 or$300 an hour and it really like
it's super, super transformative.
So I don't like this is not aknock on employees.
There are some people who justdon't have the risk tolerance or
the profile to beentrepreneurial.
(55:15):
For me it was manifest destiny,because you know what I make a
really, really shitty employee.
I don't like authority, right,I don't listen, I talk too much
Unemployable.
Basically, I am hardcore,unemployable yes, we go around
you know that I'm going to goand find a job down at the UPS
store.
I can't think of a single UPSstore that would hire me.
But this idea like for me, foranybody who has a who, anybody
(55:43):
who has a services business ordoes consulting, like I you know
when when I started to thinkabout what I was doing in terms
of its value to the person whowas buying it and how it was
going to be transformative tothem, I like it.
It just created a better world,like a better world for
everybody.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
Yeah, that's great advice.
I love it.
All of this has been so great.
Thank you again, deb, for beingwith us here this week and for
always being so generous withyour knowledge and your wisdom
and all of your smarts onbranding.
I hope all of you have reallytaken a lot away today.
I know I took a lot of notes,as I always do, even though I've
sat and talked with you so manytimes, you always take away so
(56:22):
many great things.
So thanks again for being withus today.
We hope to see you all nextweek.
Until then, everyone keepasking, keep giving and keep
growing.
We'll see you soon.
Thanks, la la, la, la, la, la,la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la,
la, la, la, la, la, la la.
Produced by Heartcast Media.
All right.
Hello everyone, and welcome toour weekly power lounge.
This is your place to hearauthentic conversations from
those who have power to share.
My name is Amy Vaughn and I amthe owner and chief empowerment
officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who work indigital and choose to share
their knowledge, power andconnections.
You can learn more about us andjoin the movement at
(00:32):
togetherindigitalcom, and todaywe are diving deep into the
psychology of brand loyalty withthe brilliant Deb Gabor.
She has recently led ourmasterclass on this exact topic
about how to turn casualcustomers into devoted brand
evangelists.
And Deb is more than a brandconsultant she is also a
(00:54):
three-time bestselling authorwhose innovative frameworks,
like the brand values pyramidand ideal customer archetypes,
have helped to revolutionize howcompanies connect with their
audiences.
Her recent insights on hackingMaslow's hierarchy for brand
growth have already helpedcountless organizations build
deeper, more meaningful customerrelationships, and today we're
(01:17):
going to explore that even moreon how to create that coveted,
irrational loyalty to the kindthat transforms customers into
passionate advocates whocouldn't imagine life without
your brand.
So, whether you are anentrepreneur, marketer, business
leader, you're in for a treatin learning how to build brands
(01:40):
that matter.
So very excited to have all ofyou here with us today, our live
listening audience.
We would love it.
If you have questions, pleaseshare them in the chat.
Deb, it is great to have youhere with us.
Again, thank you for joining us.
Well, thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
Fantastic, fantastic.
(02:00):
So I know some of our membersand folks have met you within
the community, but for those whohaven't, I'd love for you to
share a little bit more aboutyour backstory before we dive
into the fun topic of branding.
A little bit about how you gotinto this area and what it
before.
You became a three-timebestselling author and brand
(02:21):
evangelist.
How did you get?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
here.
I like to tell people that Igrew up in basically a brandless
existence.
So when I was a little kid mywhole family is from different
parts of Eastern Europe and sovery, very practical, down to
earth, pragmatic people whodidn't feel like we needed brand
name anything when we weregrowing up.
(02:45):
So no brand name clothing.
All my friends were wearingtheir Levi's jeans and their
Jordache jeans and playing withBarbies and Fisher Price things
and whatever, and my parentswere buying whatever was the
cheapest.
So I hadn't really been exposedto brands and actually really
didn't understand what brandswere or what brands meant, until
(03:07):
I was 16 years old and got adriver's license and was able to
go to McDonald's for the firsttime and have a McDonald's
hamburger cross my lips for thevery, very first time and always
was sort of fascinated by whatdoes this mean?
How could a brand command moremoney than something that was
(03:27):
unbranded or generic?
And was always sort offascinated by that.
And then grew I think I toldyou this before that I started
my career in journalism, like alot of marketers do, and I
worked in television, televisionnews, ran an assignment desk
and was a reporter, you know,did things like that, and I was
(03:50):
really involved in tellingstories that were designed not
just to inform people but trulyto move people, and there's a
strong intersection betweenstorytelling and branding and
there's, you know, actual brainscience behind it.
And so fast forward a littlebit to the point in my life at
which I couldn't make enoughmoney to support myself as a
(04:12):
journalist, which is very oftenthe case I ended up moving to a
corporate job, and my first jobI worked in a super, super
high-tech business.
My first real job was at AT&TBell Labs, which I was the lone
marketer in a sea of scientistsand technologists tasked with
(04:33):
the idea of trying to movepeople, heart, mind and wallet
to care about technologicalinnovations that were coming out
of the labs.
And really that's when I kindof got bit by this marketing and
branding bug.
And so, yeah, I grew up in thetechnology industry.
For the first half of my careerI worked in house, as we say,
(04:54):
like people who are agencypeople we talk about being
agency people are being in housepeople.
I was an in house person doingsort of brand leadership, brand
marketing jobs, productmarketing jobs, a variety of
things like that.
I had the pleasure and thegreat experience of working at a
tech startup that really iscredited with being the first
(05:16):
company to help consumers get onthe internet with 9,600 baud
modems, at US Robotics, and didmarketing and branding jobs
there and then ended up on theagency side of the business.
And when I was on the agencyside of the business, I had an
incredible.
I had an incredible experienceworking for a really, really
great mentor who who inspired meto think about brands in a
(05:40):
different way, and she was.
She was one of the people whohelped Steve Jobs launch the
Macintosh and go back and lookat you know these documentaries
and movies and stories aboutthat when that happened.
She's a pivotal figure in thatwhole story and so I worked with
her.
It was a PR company fortechnology companies and I was a
(06:05):
publicist, and so my job againwas telling stories.
But she had such a uniqueapproach to it which, instead of
telling stories about bits andbytes and how many hops to a
tier one network and throughputsand things like that, she was
able to turn those stories intounique stories of how people's
(06:25):
lives could be transformedthrough the use of technology.
And I learned right alongsideher, and that's what it wasn't
really.
I wouldn't call it branding,but that's sort of what inspired
me to pursue the whole practicemore.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Branding so somewhere between the Big Mac and the
woman who helped launch Appleyeah, exactly Somewhere.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
The Big Mac, my first Big Mac at 16.
And then, sometime in my early30s, working for this person who
launched the Macintosh.
And then, you know, frankly,for me like working on the
launch of a lot of like reallyexciting technology products
which you know, in the go-godays of the technology industry,
when you were, when you werebringing new technology to
market, often the stories thatyou were telling were about like
technology, right, you weretelling stories about, um, I
(07:13):
call it the itties, uh,reliability, availability,
scalability, manageability,flexibility, which, which is all
comparative.
We weren't really tellingstories about how technology
would impact humans and changetheir lives, which you know
really is more emotionallybonding.
And so, you know, I really sortof cultivated this practice of
(07:35):
changing the way stories aretold and the way that they
connect with human beings, whichyou know later on informs the
whole methodology that that Iuse and I talk about and I write
about for branding.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Excited to get to some of that later for sure.
What was the aha moment?
That sort of changed though howyou approach branding, would
you say.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
I think that it was.
I mean, I'd like to say it wasthe McDonald's hamburger.
Like, since the first McDonald'shamburger I had when I was 16
years old, I haven't had anotherone because it's disgusting.
The pivotal moment, I think, wasprobably the first time I
(08:20):
actually in that, in in thatpublicist job where I was
pitching something and was ableto get the attention of a
journalist not being a storyabout aviation, but being a
story of, of transformation, astory of like being able to
(08:49):
completely change the way peopleview and use air travel,
featuring the human beingsbehind it.
Like that was the moment that Iwas like, okay, this is what
wins, this is what gets people'sattention, that there truly is
(09:12):
story behind it and the storytakes the reader, the consumer
of that story, on this journeyof self-discovery.
And I was like this is not justa plane, this is not just like
an aviation business, this is amovement that truly has the
power to help people envision adifferent way to travel.
And I think that that was myhuge aha, was like when I really
(09:34):
, really, you know, when youland a cover story for Fortune
magazine about something in atechnology-driven marketplace
like that, it turns your headaround, it really gets your
attention.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Well, I wonder, did that sort of start to open your
eyes to that methodology thatyou've begun to introduce,
unlocking and hacking Maslow'shierarchy of needs for brand
building?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
A hundred percent, a hundred percent.
So, yeah, when I when I talkabout Maslow's hierarchy, I talk
about it in a couple of ways,in how it is related to branding
, and so, you know, those of uswho are familiar with Maslow's
hierarchy, we know that.
You know, the basic premisehere is that we are all on a
path to self actualization, selfactualization being the
(10:21):
pinnacle of Maslow's hierarchyor the top of that.
You know that pyramid construct, the idea that when we get
there, we're fulfilling ourhighest, best value to the world
.
We are, you know, sort oflevitating on a better plane
where we are free of judgmentfor ourselves, free of judgment
for others, we are fullyaccepting who we are.
(10:42):
And the idea is that, you know,being a fully self-actualized
individual is something that weall strive for, and so what we
eat, what we wear, what we drink, the airlines that we use to
travel, the cars that we drive,the technology that we buy for
ourselves and for our businesses, and things like that are all
part of our ascension ofMaslow's hierarchy, all part of
(11:07):
our ascension of Maslow'shierarchy, right?
And so, out of that, likereally trying to understand what
is the process that people aregoing through when they're
making decisions about what theybuy.
Without Maslow's hierarchy,things like Gucci shoes and
handbags wouldn't exist, right,you know when?
When you know full well thatyou can, that you can get a
plastic sack from Walmart tocarry your personal things,
(11:29):
versus paying $2,500 for a Guccihandbag.
For me it was really like I hadto peel back the layers of the
onion and try to understand.
Like, why is this even possible?
Like, what is it about that?
And so the hacking of Maslow'shierarchy?
It's been my life's work forprobably 25 years now.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah, there's so much of our identity that gets
caught up into that right.
It's like we're walking aroundand that's like our internal.
How we identify internally islike how we're projecting
externally with the things thatwe buy and wear.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, you mentioned earlier this notion of
irrational loyalty, and I defineirrational loyalty as this idea
that people are so indeliblybonded to a brand they'd feel
like they were cheating on it ifthey were to choose something
else.
That's very, very powerful,right?
Irrational loyalty is the thingthat allows brands to grow
rapidly and more profitably,charge more for products and
(12:26):
services, attract and retainwildly loyal fans and really
sort of stand out in a sea ofsameness.
There is nothing today that youcan buy that there isn't an
imitation of it, right?
And branding is the thing thatcreates these that you know,
creates these huge companieswhere the contribution of the
(12:47):
value of the brand is worth morethan the the products that they
sell, right?
And so, you know, this hasalways been really fascinating
to me, and, and this notion ofirrational loyalty really sort
of.
You know, you talk aboutidentity, brands becoming part
of who you are.
Irrational loyalty, the researchthat we do, we learned that the
(13:08):
underpinnings, thepsychological underpinnings of
this are to create thatcondition of irrational loyalty.
The brand has to become part ofthe person's identity, it has
to become part of who they areand it has to be indispensable
to them, meaning it'sirreplaceable, that you can't
trade it out for something else,and so there's so much
psychology there.
(13:28):
Yeah, people want to get upMaslow's hierarchy, but at the
end of the day, brands that getto the top of their own Maslow's
hierarchy, the ones that arefully self-actualized.
They become part of the peoplewho use them and they become
irreplaceable to them.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Right, oh, I love it.
There's so much good stuff tokind of unpack there.
I have kind of like a follow-upquestion to that then like in
what ways for people who aretrying to, who maybe don't feel
like they have they have a brandor a product or service that
meets a need and they don't feellike they're elevated, but they
(14:05):
want to kind of maybe increasetheir pricing or to elevate
their brand what are some waysin which they could do that by
kind of using this hack?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, I break it down to like four basic things and
I'll share that with everybodyhere.
I just give this methodologyaway for free.
Really, what you're talkingabout, amy, is helping people
who have a business, a product,a service, maybe even themselves
, that they're trying to brandand they want to create more
(14:39):
sort of financial goodness forthemselves, open up new
financial territory, open up newconceptual territory.
What they need to do is actlike the best brands in the
world, and the best brands inthe world they do four things.
Number one they aim their brandat a singular, ideal,
archetypal customer, and that isthe person who is most highly
(14:59):
predictive of their success,right?
The one who is going to pay themost for what you are bringing
to the table, right?
So, aiming your brand at oneperson, an archetypal human
being for whom your brand ismade, and being very, very
focused on that person, knowingeverything about them, their
values, their beliefs.
You know what keeps them up atnight, what are their attitudes,
(15:22):
their behaviors, what are theirchallenges, what makes them
feel sexy, all of those kinds ofthings.
So that's number one.
Number two they become part ofthat person's self-expression,
part of their identity.
They understand how they becomepart of that person.
Number three if you have abusiness and you want to elevate
that and you really want tocreate a brand that creates a
(15:45):
rational loyalty, you're notjust different, you're unique,
you're singular.
This is where brands get intotrouble.
We always want to compare whatwe're selling to everything else
, and that's the itties and theerrs.
It's smaller, it's faster, it'sbigger, it's thinner, it's
thicker, it's taller, all ofthose kinds of things that just
(16:11):
opens you up to be compared toeveryone else, meaning that your
best features are imitable.
When you really focus onbuilding a brand that's unique,
then you can get to the top ofthat Maslow's pyramid for brands
, right, you can become fullyself-actualized as a brand.
So, number one aim at an idealarchetypal customer.
Number two become part of thatperson's self-concept.
Number three don't just bedifferent, but be unique.
(16:33):
That's the thing that makes aPorsche a Porsche and not a
Mazda, even though both thingsfulfill the same basic
functional benefits, right?
And then, finally, the bestbrands in the world.
They do this essential thingthey make their brand about
their customer and not aboutthem, right?
Yep, I do this diagnostic withbrands all the time.
(16:54):
I say you know what?
Go to your mobile phone andopen up your company website and
if the first word on thewebsite is the company name or
the word we, you're doing ittotally wrong, right, right.
Think of your brand as beingheroic to another hero.
Like the customer gets to bethe hero in this scenario, not
(17:14):
you.
So so you know, when people aretrying to open up more
territory for their brandfinancial, conceptual, attract
more customers, it's about thatrelentless focus, but then also
really taking on thecharacteristics of the best
brands in the world.
And those are the four thingsright there.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
I love it and the reason why I threw that question
is because I know we have a lot, of, a lot of our listening
audience are women who own andrun their own small businesses
and in companies and they tendto undercharge for what they do
and or the products and theservices they sell.
And it's like how do weencourage them to position
themselves in such a way thatthey can to sell to their
(17:52):
highest you know, most idealclient?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
So the ideal clients are the ones who are going to
pay what you're charging, right?
So if you have a small servicesbased business, if you find
yourself over-servicing clients,it is because they are probably
not the ideal clients, right?
Ideal clients are people whoappreciate what you are doing.
They need and can use what youare doing.
(18:14):
When you do this profile of theideal customer archetype, you
should be able to see as theycome towards your business.
You should be able to see thatthey exhibit at least 75% of the
characteristics of clients whoare most ideal, like I can see
it from miles away.
Most importantly, I can see whois not my ideal customer and
when I know that I like.
(18:35):
Sometimes we consciously takebusiness from someone who's not
our ideal customer.
I run a services business.
Sometimes you got to keep thelights on, right.
You're like this is not ideal.
At least I'm conscious about it, I understand it and I can
mitigate the risk, right.
But it gives me the ability tohave choice, and choice is so
important when you're runningyour own business, otherwise,
(18:56):
why do it?
Speaker 1 (18:57):
right.
Why do this?
Exactly, exactly, oh, love itso much.
Thank you, deb.
Also, in your masterclass, youmentioned three key questions
that brands should askthemselves.
I would love it if you couldwalk our podcast audience
through those as well.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Oh, absolutely so.
Like I just gave you theexplanation of the four things
that the best brands in theworld do, number two, three and
four can be summed up in thesethree questions.
I call them the brand swaggerquestions, and I always tell
people if you want to just getstarted in branding, try to
answer these questions right.
And the other hint about thisis that, through answering these
questions, you are formulatingthe foundation of your strategic
(19:36):
brand messaging.
The first question, which isthe becoming part of someone's
self-image, becoming part oftheir identity, is to answer
this question what does it sayabout my customer or my client
that they use my brand?
Not what does it say about themthat they use these widgets,
(19:58):
but what does it say about themthat they use me?
So, for instance, I have aresearch, strategy and marketing
firm for B2B technology andprofessional services companies.
What it says about them is thatthey are no nonsense,
innovative, thoughtful marketingleaders who don't have time for
BS, who want to be pushed, notjust to do the best they can,
(20:23):
but whatever it takes for themto win.
It says that they have a shortrunway and a lot of attention is
on them to get things right.
That's what it says about themthat they work with me and the
company that I represent.
So it's really important thatit's not what does it say about
them that they use an outsidemarketing firm, but what does it
say about them that they use me?
(20:44):
So that's question number one,right?
So what does Right?
Right, I'm reliable.
I like to help my friends move.
I may be a little bit rugged, Igot a dog.
I'm from Texas, right?
You have a story about me,right?
(21:05):
So that's question number one.
Question number two is thatquestion about uniqueness, and
that question is so simple toask but the hardest one to
answer this is where I earn allmy money, right, what is the one
thing that people get from mybrand?
They get from me.
They get from my company, theyget from my product.
(21:25):
What's the one thing they getfrom me that they don't get from
anyone else?
And so back to the examplewhere I was explaining about the
company that I run.
The one thing they get from usyeah, they can get marketing
services anywhere.
Right, they can get research,brand strategy, marketing
services.
I always joke around and sayyou can't swing a cat over your
head and not hit 150 otherpeople who do exactly what we do
(21:47):
.
Right, they can hire anyone forthose things.
But the one thing they get fromus they don't get from anyone
else is the proverbial kick inthe ass.
They get a kick in the pants.
They get propelled to dowhatever it takes.
Right, they come to usspecifically for the kick in the
pants.
We are not for everyone.
Believe me, I've never gonethrough a brand strategy
(22:09):
engagement that didn't makepeople really, really
uncomfortable and make peoplefeel like they want to quit
sometimes.
Right, Because the work ofbranding is hard and my goal
with my organization, like ourBHAG, is to take a disruptive
dark horse brand and turn theminto a top five most valuable
global brand.
So that's Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook and Tencent.
(22:32):
Those are your top mostvaluable global brands.
My goal is to take someone thatno one knows and make them one
of those, right?
I'm not looking to beeverybody's favorite marketing
agency, right?
So the one thing you get fromus is the kick in the pants.
So really really getting intothat singularity is super
important.
And then that third question,the third of those brand swagger
(22:52):
questions.
It's this simple how do I makemy customer the hero in their
own story?
They're the ones who get tostand on the top of the hill.
They plant the flag, they makethe declaration, they get the
medal, they get the trophy, theyget the girl, they get the boy,
Whatever it is that they want.
At the end they win.
How do I get them there?
And so, when you take thosethree questions, what does it
(23:15):
say about a person that they usemy brand?
What's the one thing they getfrom me that they don't get from
anyone else?
And how do I make them a hero?
Can you imagine that theanswers to those three questions
formulate like the strategicunderpinnings of your entire
brand story?
Right, it's taken me a longtime to like really refine this
(23:36):
methodology, but if you, if yougo through that it, it helps you
humanize the brand and it helpsyou tap into those deep
emotional connections that getyou up above the fray of bits
and bytes and speeds and feedsand it is an ers.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, I agree, I agree.
I did this little piece a whileback about the so many brands
and branding it was always aboutand it would always kind of
honestly piss me off.
It was just like, oh, brandingis guidelines and fonts and
colors and tone of voice and Iwas like no, it's not TOV, it's
(24:15):
POV, it's a point of view.
What point of view do you have?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
It's your unique point of view, inclusive of your
customer right, and I alwaystell people that it is the sum
total of all of the emotionalconnections that you make with
everyone all around your brandand it's a construct that's made
up of two big pieces.
One is the brand identitythat's a piece that you own and
you drive and you control andtone of voice and fonts.
And One is the brand identitythat's a piece that you own and
(24:39):
you drive and you control, andtone of voice and fonts and
colors is the articulation ofthat.
But it isn't that right.
And then brand image is thepart that's reflected back to
you by your audience and it's arelationship brand identity and
brand image.
If those two things aredisconnected, then you don't
have a brand, you have a, youhave a broken brand.
So you're a hundred percentright, but you know it is every
(25:04):
point of emotional connectionbetween you and anyone that you
want to move heart, mind andwallet.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Agreed, agreed, yeah, yeah, so much, so much good
stuff into there, but I'll keepus moving.
Oh goodness, cause I did a talkearlier this year, too, on
brand reputation and customerperception and all those things
too, and how all of thatconsistency is such a necessity.
It's like, yeah, there's a lotof good stuff in there, but you
were also talking about thatswift kick in the pants, and I
(25:34):
love it because, again, likeagain, what's something I love
about your style?
And you have a book titled uh,branding is sex.
So yeah, like you know we justgo straight for it.
So it definitely obviouslyturned some heads, catches some
attention.
I'm kind of curious like whatinspired that comparison?
And, yeah, divulge a little bitabout that book and what people
can expect from from that.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you, like, what's the meaning
of that, and then I'll tell youwhere it originated, because
it's a really funny story.
So you know, we were talkingabout Maslow's hierarchy, right,
and one time I was like reallytrying to break this down for
somebody, this idea of what doesit feel like to be fully
self-actualized, and in order tosort of like permeate this
(26:17):
person's like thick skull, I waslike do you know what it feels
like to have a day so great thatall you want to do is take a
roll in the hay?
Right?
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
You know, like that feeling that you have the world
on a string, you've got life bythe proverbial cojones, whatever
, like you've got this, you havethis incredible, have this
incredible powerful feelingright.
Like that nothing can go wrong.
That's the moment in which youreally really feel fully
self-actualized and you know youkind of want to go for it,
(26:50):
right?
You know, and I told this storyI was like, yeah, it's like you
get in your car and you're onyour way to work.
You make every light, right,you have green lights all the
way.
You arrive at the office, youget the front parking space, you
walk in the door, you get toyour desk and your nine o'clock
meeting is canceled.
So you finally have time to getthrough all of those backed up
emails and clear your desk andmaybe read a little bit of the
(27:13):
newspaper and whatever.
Then you win a big deal.
You have a great lunch wheresomebody else picks up the tab.
Then on the way home, you makeall the lights.
You get home, your spouse hasprepared dinner for you, have
the kids in the bath already,you get to spend time with the
whole family and they're allclean, right, and the kids go to
(27:33):
bed.
And then you're like, wow, wow,wow, right, so.
So everybody like understandswhat that feeling is like.
Well, that's the role ofbranding is to give people that
feeling, right, it truly is togive people that feeling.
And you know, people ask meI've been interviewed literally
hundreds of times about thisbook, right, and people ask me.
(27:57):
They're like oh okay, so areyou saying that sex sells?
No, no, no.
I'm not talking about beingsexy or making brands sexy.
I'm talking about making peoplewant to feel like they want to
have sex.
Right, Does that make sense?
So all branding boils down tolike making people have that
(28:19):
great feeling, whether it'sthrough the purchase of a new
iPhone or, you know, it's theselike really cute eyeglasses that
I like.
You know what I mean.
It's like making people want tohave that feeling Right.
So that's the meaning ofbranding is sex, and you know my
publisher for that book was theone who encouraged me to name
(28:40):
it, that I can't remember whatthe working title was, but he
was like you absolutely need tocall it that.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Now it's been problematic.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
I live in Salt Lake City, utah, and I've been asked
to speak at places like can youjust call that book branding?
I'm like, no, I cannot callthat book branding Right, but
I'm a little bit, you know, sortof like an in your face kind of
person, so.
So that's really what themeaning is.
It really is about givingpeople that feeling that they
want to take a role in the hay.
The second part of that is thestory of where this came from.
(29:08):
So I told you I grew up in thetechnology industry and that
great job that I had, where Iworked for this incredible
mentor who, you know, ran the PRcompany for technology
companies.
One of our clients one of ourclients, very, very, very
well-known leader at a very,very well-known, very famous
technology company was launchinga server operating system which
(29:31):
, frankly, is not very sexy,right, and the server operating
system was being launched to thefinancial services industry and
government two very unsexyindustries and all he wanted to
talk about, all the CEO wantedto talk about, was like bits and
bytes and speeds and feeds andhow many hops to a tier one
network and you know how manyones, and zeros and you know,
(29:53):
like the itties and the errs, orwhat they used to call this
company RASM, rasm, r-a-a-s-m.
Reliability, availability,scalability, manageability
you're glazing over.
Can you imagine an audience ofanalysts and media at a launch
like salivating over reliability, availability, scalability,
manageability?
(30:13):
No, so it was my job to changehis perception and his
storytelling to really put theircustomer in the center of the
story.
And boy is this guy thick headed.
He was really really reallythick headed and I was at my
wit's end, and this was during amedia training.
(30:33):
Right, I was really at my wit'send.
He was sitting in a rollingchair, like what I'm sitting in
right here, and I took anotherrolling chair and I got up real
close to him.
We were like knee to knee and Iwas like, listen, we have to
tell the story in a differentway.
We have to put that it guy,that government it guy who sits
in a windowless office with likeno one to talk to all day,
(31:01):
except for all the people whoare calling him to let him know
that the servers down, thattheir PCs aren't working, that
their workstations aren'tfunctioning, whatever.
We have to get that guy laid.
How does this service serveroperating system get that guy
laid?
And he pushed his chair backand he rolled like halfway
across the room and then he toldme a story.
He was like this happens, andthen this happens and this
happens.
(31:21):
And I said this is what we needto say to the media and those
analysts, right?
And in that moment, like when Iasked him, like and it was in a
, it was in a moment offrustration.
I was like how does the serveroperating system get this guy
laid?
When everything opened up tohim, I was like I was compelled
to share that with the worldbecause I had had my big aha and
(31:42):
I thought, for all of thesepeople who don't understand the
power of story, the power ofconnection, the power of
emotions in moving people totake action, I can make this so
easy for them.
So that's where Branding a Sexwas born.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
That's so funny.
Well, as you were kind ofsharing earlier, there's the
story of going through the dayin those moments and those
little moments.
To me, what I was hearing, too,was just satisfaction, right,
that little sense ofsatisfaction throughout the day
and that sense of peace andthings are going my way and
(32:21):
trust.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
And in the IT world, like that totally makes sense.
Now, you know, one of thebrands that I'm working with
right now is really aboutindulgence and decadence, right,
and so it's more than a momentof satisfaction.
But understanding those likemicro levers that you need to
pull.
What is the difference betweensatisfaction and indulgence,
(32:43):
right?
What is the difference betweenbeing satisfied or feeling
deserving and discerning, right?
That is the essence of branding, is like getting to.
They are like little microlevers, right, and so you picked
up from the story yeah, likethat's satisfaction.
That's, for a brand, aboutsatisfaction, being satisfied.
Some brands are about elation.
Some brands are about makingpeople feel confident or feeling
(33:06):
powerful, or feeling likethey're in control.
Understanding those things, andreally the magic is
understanding, specifically foryour brand.
What is it that you do, unlikeany other brand in the category?
That's where the magic is.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Well, and I love it that you always take it up a
notch.
You kick it up a notch too,because I think we've become, as
a society, a bit desensitized.
So I think it's not enough tojust say like it's about
satisfaction.
You have to elevate it, right,because it's like it wasn't
enough for you in that moment togo knee-to-knee to him and be
like how do we make people feelsatisfied?
No, it's got to be.
How do I get this guy late?
Speaker 2 (33:46):
competitor in that space is trying to make that guy
feel satisfied there, yeah,everyone is trying to make them
feel, you know, confident,accomplished, satisfied, safe,
secure, right.
So this is, this is the thing.
So Maslow's hierarchy forbrands, it's a pyramid.
It has three parts.
At the bottom are what is theante to get into the game?
(34:06):
What does the brand need tobring to the table in order to
be considered a that in thatcategory?
If we're talking about serveroperating systems, we're talking
about reliability, availability, scalability, manageability,
flexibility, uptime, security,safety, all of those kinds of
things.
Right, you don't differentiateon the basis of that.
That's like selling ice creamby saying it's cold and it's
sweet.
We don't do that right, in themiddle of that pyramid are
(34:29):
emotional benefits.
Emotional benefits are thingsmakes him feel secure, makes him
feel accomplished, makes himfeel smart, makes him feel savvy
, makes him feel secure and allof these different things safe,
et cetera.
Emotional benefits are notenough, because I would say any
server operating system shouldmake people feel that way, right
(34:51):
?
Yep, if we want to reallypermeate someone's heart and
move them and bond with thememotionally, we need to make
them feel exhilar emotionally.
We need to make them feelexhilarated.
We need to make them feel yes,you got to go beyond that
Exactly, and so the best friendsin the world are the ones that
push through that to trulydifferentiate themselves on
(35:13):
characteristics that can't beimitated by anyone else.
And it's only those emotionalthings, a server operating
system that makes people feelexhilarated.
Is there such a thing, right?
I want to find it now.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
It's out there somewhere.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Interestingly, this company has been bought and sold
so many times.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
I don't even know what it's called anymore.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
In the day.
It was one of the big things,so yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Oh goodness, all right, let's talk a little bit
about the ideal customerarchetype.
I love all your frameworks.
I think they are truly helpfuland powerful and, again, it's
something you can take and startto use right away.
What about this framework makesit so powerful?
Speaker 2 (35:54):
So every business strategy methodology talks about
something like the corecustomer, right?
They're like, okay, who is yourcore customer?
And you're like, oh, I workwith medium-sized businesses
with revenues between $10million and $100 million.
I am here to tell you thatbusinesses at $10 million of
revenue and $100 million ofrevenue, they have different
kinds of problems, right?
(36:15):
Right, the ideal customerarchetype is about honing in on
the exact human being who yourbrand is made for.
It is a branding exercise, not amarketing exercise and this is
really, really important becauseI get a lot of pushback on this
but you build your brand forthe ideal archetypal customer.
That's why it's an archetyperight and it really it goes
(36:38):
beyond demographic andfirmographic characteristics to
help you identify, like who isthe exact human being that you
are made for and who is made foryou.
I make my clients draw thisright.
We draw a picture right and wereally hone in on, if you're
selling to other businesses, whois the decision maker within
the business.
That is the most importantdomino that you need to knock
(36:59):
down.
You build the brand for thepeople who use it right and
figure out who is that humanbeing, what is their job title?
What does their day look like?
What are their challenges like?
What do they wear to work?
Are they wearing gym shoes?
Are they wearing work boots?
Are they wearing wingtips?
Are they wearing heels?
Where do they go on vacation?
What makes them feel sexy?
What makes them sit upright inbed and sweat ice cubes?
(37:23):
What are their goals, theirvalues and beliefs?
It's knowing everything aboutit, and so when I make clients
draw it, if they have a bigheart, you draw them with a big
red heart in the middle of it.
If they have a big fat brainand they're like very
intellectual, draw them with abig brain.
They have a lot of money undertheir control.
Show them holding a big bag ofmoney.
But when you go through thisexercise, the most important
thing it does is it shows youwho you are not for, right.
So we talked about, you know,people who are running their own
(37:44):
small businesses, the peoplewho are maybe listening to this
right now.
You can probably look acrossyour business and think about
who is the person that I wouldlove to serve, over and over and
over again.
When you create the archetypeof who that person is and you
memorialize this for you andyour team and you bring that
(38:04):
person to your meetings, you usethat person when you're
thinking about all right, mymarketing or my sales efforts
and things like that, you getthis relentless focus almost to
the exclusion of everyone else.
I'd like to give this littlecase study.
I worked with a mortgage broker, actually here in Salt Lake
City before I moved here.
They're a very, very largecompany.
(38:25):
I think that they're one of thetop mortgage brokers in all of
the United States and they onlyoperate in about five states and
they're headquartered here inUtah and we were going through
an ideal customer archetypeissue.
They were finding that theywere seriously over over
servicing people and think youknow their team was ready to
(38:45):
quit.
They also had a very, veryunique business model that,
instead of commissioned loanofficers, their loan officers
were on salary, and this wasreally important because their
loan officers were incentivizedby different things than, like,
pure play sales oriented loanofficers.
So when you have sales orientedloan officers this was an
(39:07):
interesting nuance that I knewnothing about when you have
sales oriented loan officers,they're incentivized.
They're incentivized by money.
They're incentivized to makethe cost of those loans more so
that they make more money right,which adds time and complexity
to the home loan process.
These guys were like we canshorten the home loan process by
10 days and save the averagefamily buying like a $500,000
(39:28):
house $7,000 on their mortgage,right?
So who is the ideal customerfor this?
We have a conversation aboutthis because they're like we're
having a real hard timeconnecting in the marketing
process and their messaging wasmuddy and they had a real value
proposition and they didn't knowwho their ideal customer was
(39:48):
and I said who's your idealcustomer?
And they said it's a couple.
I'm like, all right, tell meabout this couple.
They're like, well, it's a manand a woman and they're buying a
house that's about $500,000 inthe Salt Lake Valley.
And we really probed into thisand, looking at their business
(40:10):
model, this idea that they havethis unique model that can save
thousands of dollars and days onthe home loan cycle, which
saves real human beings a lot ofmoney and a lot of
consternation, I was like,within this couple, who do you
need to influence?
So then I asked questions about,in the home buying process,
who's in charge?
Right, and you know, they saidlargely the woman of these
traditional relationships is theone who's driving the home
(40:31):
buying process.
Right, she determines where youlive, how you live, what the
house looks like, the location,you know, those kinds of things.
She has a sacred bond with thereal estate agent, right, and
you know, I remember the firsttime I bought a home, I asked my
real estate agent for areferral to a mortgage loan
broker.
My real estate agent gave me abusiness card and I went
(40:53):
directly to that person.
I didn't do any shopping around, I didn't do any second
opinions, right, and so when wedeeply probed into this
relationship to understand theprocess and who needed to be
influenced, we identified thatthe man in these and these were
very traditional man-womanrelationships right, the man in
(41:13):
this scenario who we named Brian.
He was the ideal customerarchetype because he was the one
person who could break thesacred bond between the woman in
the relationship and the realestate agent who hands over the
business card of here's, themortgage loan broker.
We anointed Brian the familyCFO.
We made him the idealarchetypal customer who could
(41:38):
change the whole trajectory ofthe home buying process by
suggesting they get a secondopinion, and this opened up so
much financial territory forthem.
I drive around here on I-15 inSalt Lake City.
I see their billboards.
Their billboards are targetedright at Brian and they say get
a second opinion.
You get a second opinion for amedical thing, you get a second
(42:01):
opinion for, you know, a carrepair, get a second opinion on
your mortgage.
And they're aimed directly atthis homegrown family CFO, right
.
And so this is where that idealcustomer archetype is so
powerful, because it brings yourelentless focus.
If you're marketing to a couple, who are you talking to?
(42:27):
It's too broad, right.
So, going all the way back tothe first time that maybe you
were in the school play infourth or fifth grade, right,
you know, and and you, you havesomeone that you're you're
supposed to be talking to andthe, the director of the school
play or the school drama teachersays what's your motivation?
You know you have to focusschool play.
Or the school drama teachersays what's your motivation?
You have to focus on thatperson.
What's their motivation?
What are they trying to get?
What are you trying to get?
So that's where the idealcustomer archetype can open up
(42:49):
all kinds of new financialterritory.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
That's a great example, and I am telling you
drawing a picture of it, beingable to visualize it, being able
to close your eyes and see itin your third eye is magical.
I know it when I see it.
More importantly, I know when Idon't see it.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Exactly, yeah, yeah, that's always a way to get a
marketer to flip a table is tellthem that you know we're for
everybody.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
It's my favorite, like when I go into a new
business scenario and they'relike.
I ask them, I'm like, who areyou selling this to, who is this
for?
And they're like well, really,anyone can use this.
All right, I mean those of uswho are marketers like, how much
, how, how effective are yougoing to be at marketing?
You know so.
So I try to get people to thinkabout it.
(43:34):
Their audiences like a seriesof concentric circles, or even
like it's a fried egg on a plate, the yolk like this very, very
dense, rich portion of the egg.
Here is your ideal archetypalcustomer, who the brand is made
for.
You're going to still get thewhite.
They're interested, they'reinspired, they're aspiration,
(43:56):
they're aspiring to be like that.
Don't market to the people whoare the plate.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Right, yeah, no, exactly, you can't eat the plate
.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
I always tell people this you can't eat the plate.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
You can't eat the plate and you're not going to
get, like you said, thatirrational loyalty from the
plate.
You're not going to get theirrational loyalty and love from
the people.
It's just not the idealcustomer.
Yeah, I agree, I love this somuch.
All right, let's talk about anexample of a brand that really
nails that emotional connectionsthat we're talking about here.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Yeah, so, interestingly, a brand that I
have recently become obsessedwith, which I am not the target
audience for, but I've kind ofbecome obsessed with it just
because I've been doing someresearch for another client
where this brand was sort ofinvolved.
It is a streetwear brand calledLonely Ghost, and so the
younger people among us might,might, know what what this brand
(44:52):
is, but I, you know, I was likeI need to understand what is
the fascination?
Speaker 1 (44:56):
for this brand.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
This brand completely nails it and and they create a
rational loyalty, like theycharge for.
I went to one of their storesthe other day here in Utah.
They can charge $35 for at-shirt and nobody even gives it
a second look because it has,like, the little lonely ghost
logo on it and they do such agood job of like becoming part
(45:20):
of the person who uses it.
So this is a brand that wasstarted by an influencer, right.
She was like sort of making herown streetwear kinds of things.
She got big.
She's, you know, she's a madsensation on Tik TOK on
Instagram.
Then that expands into storesand things like that.
So what I love about this brandand the reason that I feel like
it does such a good job ofcreating a rational loyalty, is
that the brand experience isconsistent and meaningful 360
(45:48):
degrees around the brand.
So whether you consume thisbrand by going to their
e-commerce site, you consumethis brand via shoppable
Instagram, for instance, orTikTok you know TikTok posts or
whatever or you go physicallyinto a retail store which their
retail store.
It's the coolest thing I'veever seen and I'm like I'm
clearly not the brand for this.
(46:09):
I'm not the ideal customer forthis.
It's like somebody mydaughter's age, right, but I'm
just fascinated by it.
You go into their retail store,which is it's a converted
grocery store and they call itLonely Ghost Grocery and it's
and it's set up almost like MeowWolf style, like it's super,
super cool, but it's adestination and it's a 360
(46:30):
degree experience.
This tiny little brand out ofProvo, utah, has turned into an
international phenomenon thathas been able to do
collaborations with Ferrari,with Wendy's, with Jennings ice
cream.
They have like all of theseincredible.
They have a cult following.
(46:54):
It is like literally a cultfollowing, and whenever a brand
has been able to engender thatlike cult-like following, like
that really attracts me.
On the other side, anotherbrand that I've become really
obsessed with and it's sort oflike a joke between me and my
partner Like I, I love theBobcat brand and I'm talking
about, like you know, bobcats,like those little tiny
bulldozers that you can get to,you know, level your backyard
(47:15):
and all that kind of stuff andwhatever you know, I have this
idea that I want to have abobcatting business where I
teach women to drive bobcats.
I want bobcats to like do acollaboration with me and give
me bobcats that I can paint pinkand put little cat ears on and
whatever.
But I did a deeper dive to likereally understand, like, what
is it about this?
What is it about this brand?
And they're very, very clear.
(47:36):
They're like they are forpeople who want to create change
, who want to power throughthings.
And it's really interestingbecause you have John Deere
right, which is all about be theenvy of your neighbors, which
is a competitor to that.
They make a similar product.
You have Caterpillar, which islike you know, use stuff for
(47:58):
your backyard.
That's just like what the bigguys are using, you know, out on
the out on the interstate rightnow and whatever.
But Bobcat is like in thiscategory of of construction
equipment, they are very firmlyfocused on that individual guy,
who, who, who is like ruggedlychanging the way things look,
(48:21):
the way things look, the waythings feel, making change.
They do a great job.
They have wonderful casestudies on their website, like
one of them that I watched theother day.
It was the construction companythat was serving this, this
home building organization andthe home building organization.
Their mission was to buildaffordable homes for real people
(48:43):
and they sort of they.
They followed the path, theylet their customers tell the
story of how did Bobcat enableus to make housing more
affordable for these people?
Right, like, truly like thatthrough line.
So so this idea of creatingthese conditions of irrational
(49:04):
loyalty, they exist for consumerbrands like streetwear, brands
like lonely ghost, but also forindustrial brands like Bobcat
and they, they, you know, and sobrands that are able to execute
at that level where the brandexists in 360 degrees.
Those are the ones that I'mobsessed with right now.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Yeah, yeah Again, and I love that you brought it back
to consistency.
It's so, so key Again becausethat expectation is there with
consumers, that experience frombeginning to end.
It is your brand promise.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
I always talk about the brand promise of the
Ritz-Carlton right.
We are ladies and gentlemenserving ladies and gentlemen.
That is true of every singletouch point you have with the
brand.
They are sort of like thepeople of the most perfectly
constructed and delivered brandpromise.
We can all take that into everyaspect of our businesses.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Absolutely, absolutely.
This has been so much fun.
We are coming up on time, so Ijust want to go through our
power round questions reallyquickly, because we have some
fun ones that I really think ourlisteners would be interested
in hearing from you.
Hopefully they're not toochallenging, because this one
especially, it's going to behard to pick, deb.
(50:12):
So let's hear it.
What is your favorite brand ofall time?
My?
Speaker 2 (50:17):
favorite brand of all time probably, believe it or
don't is Salesforce.
My daughter, but yeah, I just,I just, you know as a disruptor.
They went to market withdisruptive tech CEOs and I think
(50:37):
that that's legendary.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
Yeah, I just um.
Was it sales blazer?
Is that there was the um newproject they just launched.
For, like all of theireducation and training, I just
met the young woman who helpedlaunch that project at content
marketing world.
So, she's going to be a guesthere soon, on the podcast too.
Awesome.
Most overrated branding trend.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
Most overrated branding trend.
Um, I'm going to'm gonna say uh, publicity stunts yeah, fair
enough.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Fair enough.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
One book every marketer should have to read, of
course, besides your own um,yeah, you can read any of my
three books, but, um, a bookthat I recommend to people.
It's called pink goldfish.
It's written by my friend, daverendall and his partner Stan
Phelps, and really the idea isthat what makes you weird makes
you wonderful.
I love that.
What makes you weird makes youwonderful, so, like leaning very
(51:32):
far into the stuff that isunique to you.
I talk about uniqueness all thetime.
Just one quick example fromthat book that's really
inspiring.
Are you familiar with thisbrand, buckman's cough syrup?
It's a brand in Canada.
I don't think we have it herein the US.
Sounds kind of familiar, butyeah the one characteristics
that Buckman's has is that ittastes like utter crap, right.
(51:53):
So you have kids.
If you have to buy your kidslike Robitussin or Trinic like,
one of the standard features isit has to like it's red or it's
purple and it tastes likebubblegum, cherry or grape,
right, it has to have a flavor.
Basically, they've said youknow what Like that stuff
doesn't matter.
What really matters is that itworks.
And so if you ask anyone inCanada what's the most effective
(52:14):
cough syrup, they'll tell youit's Buckman's and it tastes
like crap, Right.
And so he gives that example.
He gives like tons and tons ofexamples of brands that lean
really hard into places wherethey have sort of gone against
what is standard equipment fortheir category to really really
stand out.
So I love that book and it'sand it's a book that a lot of
(52:36):
people don't expect in marketing.
But, um, inspiring examplesPink goldfish, it's called.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Pink goldfish.
I love it.
And the weird is wonderful.
That's a very popular saying inour household, so I love it.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
Well, so the guy who wrote the book, he is, I want to
say he's like six foot five andin his I met him on the
speaking circuit and in hisspeaking engagements he wears
bright pink pants and pinkglasses and everything is pink
and all this kind of stuff.
You know he's, he's he alwaystells this story.
He wrote another really goodbook which is more it's more for
(53:09):
humans than it is for brandsand businesses, but it's called
the freak factor and it's kindof the same thing, and he always
tells the story about how whenhe was growing up he was a kid
you know his report cards cominghome from school they said Dave
, dave talks too much and hedistracts and entertains the
people in the classroom, and soyou know he leaned really hard
into that and he's like well,I'm going to have a career as a
professional speaker then.
(53:29):
So yeah, these ideas of likewhat makes you a freak as a
brand, as a human, are thethings that you should lean
really hard into it, becausethat really points to this idea
of like what's the one thingpeople get from me that they
don't get from anyone else?
Speaker 1 (53:43):
So that's the reason why I love his stuff so much.
Sounds like my kind of guy.
I said that when I announced mypodcast here.
I was like hey to all thoseteachers that said Amy talks too
much.
Guess what.
Now I got a podcast and I getpaid to speak.
Exactly, you and me both be tospeak.
I love it, I love it, I love it.
All right, last one, and thenwe'll wrap it up best, because
you have had an amazing careertoo.
(54:04):
I would love to hear and you'vehad some great mentors, as we
mentioned earlier in the episodewhat was the best career advice
you've ever been given.
Speaker 2 (54:11):
The best career advice I'd ever been given was
don't sell your time.
And I mean that like reallyreally transformed the
(54:34):
trajectory of my, my career andreally got I love it.
Think I told you before I wasan accidental entrepreneur.
I started out just doingconsulting, right, and I was
selling my time.
Now I made a buttload of moneyselling my time, but it wasn't
until I realized that I couldsell a vision.
I could sell against the visionof what the world could look
(54:54):
like when I solved a problem andthat was worth far more money
than selling my time for 250 or$300 an hour and it really like
it's super, super transformative.
So I don't like this is not aknock on employees.
There are some people who justdon't have the risk tolerance or
the profile to beentrepreneurial.
(55:15):
For me it was manifest destiny,because you know what I make a
really, really shitty employee.
I don't like authority, right,I don't listen, I talk too much
Unemployable.
Basically, I am hardcore,unemployable yes, we go around
you know that I'm going to goand find a job down at the UPS
store.
I can't think of a single UPSstore that would hire me.
But this idea like for me, foranybody who has a who, anybody
(55:43):
who has a services business ordoes consulting, like I you know
when when I started to thinkabout what I was doing in terms
of its value to the person whowas buying it and how it was
going to be transformative tothem, I like it.
It just created a better world,like a better world for
everybody.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
Yeah, that's great advice.
I love it.
All of this has been so great.
Thank you again, deb, for beingwith us here this week and for
always being so generous withyour knowledge and your wisdom
and all of your smarts onbranding.
I hope all of you have reallytaken a lot away today.
I know I took a lot of notes,as I always do, even though I've
sat and talked with you so manytimes, you always take away so
(56:22):
many great things.
So thanks again for being withus today.
We hope to see you all nextweek.
Until then, everyone keepasking, keep giving and keep
growing.
We'll see you soon.
Thanks, la la, la, la, la, la,la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la,
la, la, la, la, la, la la.
Produced by Heartcast Media.
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