The Retail Media Revolution

Welcome to The Power Lounge. Host Amy Vaughan speaks with Deanna Behrens, VML’s Director of Media and Strategy and a leader in retail media. Deanna has launched strategies across seven major retailers, shaping the future of the industry.

Together, Amy and Deanna explore how brands and retailers are transforming consumer connections through data-driven, consumer-focused methods and technologies like QR codes and AI. Deanna shares her journey from traditional media to the dynamic field of retail, highlighting the importance of adaptability and innovation.

This episode offers valuable insights for marketers, business owners, and anyone interested in the future of commerce, providing practical advice and real-world examples to thrive in today’s retail landscape. Tune in to The Power Lounge to learn from Deanna’s expertise and industry perspectives.

Deanna Behrens is a marketing strategist with extensive experience in the consumer-packaged goods sector. As Director of Media and Strategy, she leads marketing initiatives that drive results, focusing on commerce intelligence for retail media across seven leading retailers. Deanna is dedicated to empowering teams and advancing the future of retail media.

Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction
00:10 - Retail Media Strategy Insights
04:15 - Agility in Retail Media Evolution
07:23 - Unplanned Purchases via Impulse Marketing
11:16 - "Brand Visibility Over Awareness"
13:10 - Brand Authenticity Foundations
19:40 - "DTC Impact on Retail Strategy"
20:35 - "D2C Innovation vs. Brand Caution"
25:01 - Consistent Branding Across Retailers
27:56 - "Adapting Media Math for ROAS"
32:16 - Ad Spend Evaluation Challenges
33:05 - Aiming for Standardized Metrics
38:27 - Leveraging Data and AI Insights
42:41 - Purchase Influence Through Repeated Exposure
43:14 - Marketing Synergy Across Retail Channels
48:48 - Marketing Support Podcast for Small Businesses
50:35 - Aligning First Party and RMN Data
53:16 - Evolving Media Strategies
56:32 - Shopper Marketing Resources
59:01 - Community Support Advantage
01:00:41 - Outro

Quotes:
"Create opportunities when you can. Often, we doubt our potential, but embracing uncertainty leads to growth and magic."- Amy Vaughan

"Stay agile and curious. Embrace ambiguity and new challenges to unlock possibilities and drive innovation."-Deanna Behrens

Key Takeaways:
Embrace Agility and Curiosity
Consumer-Centric is Non-Negotiable
Partnerships Are Evolving
Test, Learn, and Innovate—Continuously
Data Is Your Power Tool (But Ask the Right Questions)
Brand Consistency, Local Nuance
Small Brands, Big Potential
Lifelong Learning & Community

Connect with Deanna Behrens:
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/deannabehrens
Website:https://www.vml.com/

Connect with the host Amy Vaughan:
LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/amypvaughan
Podcast:https://www.togetherindigital.com/podcast/

Learn more about Together Digital and consider joining the movement by visitinghttps://togetherindigital.com

Support the show

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello everyone and welcome to our weekly Power
Lounge.
This is your place to hearauthentic conversations from
those who have power to share.
My name is Amy Vaughn and I amthe owner and chief empowerment
officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who choose toshare their knowledge, power
and connections.
You can join the movement attogetherindigitalcom, and today

(00:31):
we are diving deep into thedynamic oh so many D's into the
dynamic world of media, retail,of retail media, with a true
industry innovator, deannaBehrens.
Did I say that right?
Deanna Behrens?
Behrens, I said it right.
Director of Media and Strategyat VML, brings an extensive

(00:52):
experience in the CPG space andhas pioneered retail media
strategies across seven majorretailers.
What makes Deanna's perspectiveparticularly valuable is her
unique ability to translatecommerce intelligence into
actionable strategies thatdeliver results.
I mean, she's not justwitnessing the retail media
revolution, she is activelyshaping it and we are thrilled

(01:13):
to have her to share herinsights with our community
today.
Welcome, dina.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Yes, it's so good to have youhere with us.
You are local here inCincinnati, right where I'm also
recording from, and we've hadyou come and speak right with
our local into and let you meetour entire group of members from

(01:47):
across the world.
Really, we're kind of growingand we've got people popping up
in different countries too, soholla to all of our friends who
are listening with us live today.
Remember, you're always welcometo jump into the chat, ask your
questions.
This is for you.
We want to know what you wantto hear.
Obviously, we have some greatquestions for Dina, but at the
end of the day, we want to makesure you get what you want out
of this conversation, all right?

(02:08):
So before we dive into all thefun media trends, dina, I would
love to hear more about yourjourney and becoming the
director of media and strategyat VML and what experiences
helped to shape your approach tonavigating the CPG and retail
space.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah.
So I started off my career onthe media side and really
learning like the traditional,which was a great foundation.
Um really got in the forefrontof what digital is today.
Um, it's so drasticallydifferent than when I started Um
.
But I still remember I walkedinto one of my roles with
Perfetti Van Melle, so Mentos,um, and in that role my boss was

(02:42):
like you're going to run theshopper marketing for Mentos and
Airhead.
And I'm like what is shoppermarketing?
I have no idea what you'retalking about.
And so I was like cool, whatdoes that mean?
And he's like go to the path topurchase, institute one of the
conferences, you'll figure itout.
I was like cool.
So I went and at the time therewas not many retail media

(03:04):
networks.
It was literally like hey, howcan we get people to think about
going in store to buy theproduct?
And so with Mentos, if youthink about it, they're selling
a lot of their products andconvenience stores they're also
selling it in mass and they'reselling it in grocery.
So here I am trying to figureout how do I get people at the

(03:24):
different moments, because Imean, if I'm going to advertise
in value chain versus, you know,a C store.
It's so drastically differentand how you approach it, how you
look at it.
And then, to make things evenmore complicated, they decided
they wanted an overarchingapproach, to add airheads into
the mix and airheads and Mentosare two very different

(03:44):
products and two very differentaudiences, but we were able to
figure out a amazing programthat we were able to put to the
forefront.
We're able to kind of figureout the nuances between all of
them.
I was introduced to NewsAmerica at the time, which is
now Neptune.
It's so fun to see how thingshave evolved and changed over
the years.
Um got my first introduction toum dun humby, which is now 8451

(04:10):
um, and working with that andtrying to have those
conversations with the brandteam at the early stage, like
hey, you're actually moving theneedle and getting conversions
at store.
I need you to put money intokroger but not put money into
your national advertising, whichof course he was more
passionate about because he'shelping to build the ad and

(04:31):
getting it out there and it'smore of an awareness driver.
And so seeing that from theearly stages really kind of
shaped what I was doing, becausewhen I left the industry for a
couple of years and then cameback, we had retail media
networks and I'm like now, whatis this Now, what's happening?
And it drastically changed andit's evolved over time and we'll
get to a little bit of that.
But, like COVID definitely madeit fast moving, changed it for

(04:54):
everyone.
And I think the biggest thingthat I've learned on my journey
is you need to be agile, youneed to ask the questions, be
curious, be willing to bechallenged, and that will help
you get further in your career.
And just embracing that grayarea, because if I looked at my
boss and said no, I would neverbe, able to uncover the
different things and unlock allthe different things.

(05:16):
That got me to where I am today.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
I love that and thank you for sharing that story and
experience.
I think it points out a coupleof really important things for,
I think, our listeners is thatif you're in a position of to
give opportunity like give itthe fact that he pulled you
aside and was like this is thething you're going to go for,
like that opportunity opened upan entirely new career path for
you, right, and here you aredoing it for so many important

(05:38):
brands, so opportunity is huge.
Also, your willingness to pushaside the self-doubt.
I'm sure that we all feel rightand say I am going to roll up
my sleeves and I'm going tolearn and I'm going to grow.
So you pointed out flexibilityand, really, I think too,
embracing uncertainty, right.

(05:59):
How many times do we let goodpotential opportunities go by
because we just don't thinkwe're quite enough yet?
I love, love, love that you likestepped up into it and you've
run with it and now you knowhere you are.
So yeah, as you mentioned, youknow, retail media.
It's it's kind of been a slowrolling, but it really started

(06:21):
coming on the scene, you know in2010,.
A slow rolling, but it reallystarted coming on the scene.
You know in 2010, the 2010s,whatever we call those right
From your perspective, at theforefront of this evolution,
what fundamental shifts have youwitnessed that?

Speaker 2 (06:38):
marketers need to understand or could understand
better.
I think the biggest thing thata lot of people are starting to
really see as RMNs really comeinto the play is it's not and I
kind of alluded to this with myexample of the national ads
versus the localized retailerspecific ads.
It's all about like, how do Ireach that consumer?

(06:58):
What is that consumerplayground?
Where is the most interactiveplace they interact with?
What is that consumer journeyand how do I reach them?
It's not like hey, brand is nowawareness and then retail media
is conversion and consideration.
It's not that anymore.
It's all very fluid and I thinkCOVID really streamlined that

(07:21):
and really pushed that forward.
And if you think about it today, like, I have used this so many
times but I can be sittingthere watching a TV show and
then all of a sudden my TV isblown up and all the way around
it has a QR code and I'm buyingthe product that I had no intent
when I sat down or even thoughtabout buying and I've bought it
now because it happened to bepopped up or it could be when

(07:43):
I'm even scrolling and standingin line.
You know, waiting for a concertlike 100% buy something while
I'm standing in line, like it isso fluid and so changing that,
if you aren't willing tounderstand that journey, willing
to kind of make those dividesand being flexible.
I think that is something thatis really, really missed and

(08:05):
something that we have to bevery cognizant of as we're being
more marketers.
It's definitely consumercentric versus a sales focused
anymore.
Sure, it's all about theconsumer and what the consumer
needs.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Finally, I just feel like that's like been a drum
We've been beating some of usfor a very long time of like
what does the consumer want?
What does the consumer need?
They drive purchase, but wecan't just sell them to that
like to them.
They need to know what they'relike, why they're buying what
they're buying when they'rebuying it.
To your point, right and Ithink that is another funny
thing just within the digitalmarketing space.

(08:37):
I just laugh about QR codes.
Man, how long we've beentalking about QR codes?

Speaker 2 (08:45):
I remember, like when I was at Jaquita and I was like
, well, let's put a QR code onthe banana, and it did not work
at all.
And now it'd be like, yeah,let's do it, it'll totally work.
People use it all the time.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
Everybody gets it Well and it took a couple of
things right.
It took, I think, covid rightBecause restaurants started
using them instead of like menus, and then also the technology
right Before it used to be youmenus, and then also the
technology right before it usedto be you had to upload a app,
some random app, to your phone.
You're like I don't want toupload anything.
Now it's native to our phonesand our cameras, so problem
solved, but yeah I do that.

Speaker 2 (09:14):
That was a game changer.
When that happened, it was justlike, oh, I don't have to do an
app and I don't have to like gothrough something, and yeah
absolutely so.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, it is funny and I do think that's like a really
great thing to consider to keepcontinue thinking about, right,
like, how is even just our likenative um, our phones and other
technologies, our watches, allthat stuff working?
Because like you said those areopportunities.
Um, I think like about likeways and maps and things like
that and how they're plugging inadvertising and it's all

(09:44):
geofenced based on where I'm atI'm sitting at a stoplight.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
It's like, hey, there's a wendy's 2.3 miles
ahead exactly like if you thinkabout it, like even as you
journey into a grocery storenowadays, the very first thing
you do as soon as you park ischeck your phone to see if you
missed anything.
And then you go into the storeand there's a lot of advertising
opportunities that people aremissing if they're not taking

(10:06):
into that consideration and thatjourney Because, hey, I have
you as an active audience Likewhy am I not reaching that?
And I think that's it's justagain thinking about the little
things.
Cause, like when I started, itwas okay, let's, let's create
our persona and Mary, homemaker,mary, is at home and she is

(10:27):
going to be listening to the TVwhile she's getting ready, and
then she's going to listen tothe radio on the way to drop off
the kids.
And now it's like, okay, I cando it on the phone, I can do it
on their watch, like what's theother things you know?
And I think, in my opinion, likeI think the one that's really
embraced it which is very weirdto say this is more of that

(10:48):
convenience channel.
If you go into a conveniencestore, you're seeing a lot more
of that, more innovative ways,like I went to fill up my gas
the other day and SPCA had an adon the actual gas tank itself
and I'm like, okay, I haven'tseen a gas tank wrap before.
I've seen all kinds of gasstation advertising, like the
header cards and you know thefull, but I've never seen it

(11:09):
wrap.
So I was like that's kind ofcool yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:12):
I love it.
I love it.
Yeah, I love all those kinds ofcreative strategies.
It's just fun to get involvedbecause, like you said I love
that.
I hope we pull that as a quoteis, brand is not awareness.
It hurts to hear that, for howmuch time and love we put into
brands and branding, but it's,it's absolutely true.
Like you have to actually getit out into the world and in

(11:32):
front of the right people at theright times and because, again,
our attention is so in so manyplaces, it almost has to be in
an unexpected way and or areally convenient way, that's.
The other thing I was going tomention is that I also feel like
in an era I don't I might begetting ahead on my questions,
but like in an era where we're,you know, dealing with a lot
like a lot less access to firstparty data, data cooking, all of

(11:54):
that.
I think like there's an exchangeopportunity right, like if, if
you're willing to make thingsmore convenient for me, I'm
probably willing to give youmore information.
Do you feel like that's thecase on your end?

Speaker 2 (12:06):
That's just me personally.
It's it's so changed and likeyou constantly have to think
about it.
Like I remember and this istotally dating me but like when
I would get my phone updates, Iwould always go through every
single app to see what updateschange.
Now it's like I don't have timefor that, so I'm sure it's

(12:30):
tracking me more than I realized.
Um, and when I mentionedtracking, I think it was part of
our um discussion back inFebruary.
Everyone's like, yeah, I wentonline and I looked at how much
I was being tracked and I had tomake a whole bunch of changes.
And I think people are just soused to having it be an easy era
and like, if something I needit now or I can get it now, I
can find the information.
I'm like, oh, I have this,whatever and I need to google it

(12:50):
.
Google is like the everydaything, but you don't realize how
every day it's changing andthere's always something else
being added and adjusted.
I mean, ai is taken off likecrazy, and so what are they
doing with AI to make sure it'sgetting there?
But I think it's also trying tobe smart about all the new
technology and embracing it theway you need to and being very

(13:13):
true to the brand, because ifyou're not true to your brand
and your foundation, then you'regoing to have problems and that
problem is going to rear itsugly head multiple times until
you step away and create thatfoundation of what you're trying
to stand for and how you'reapproaching it.
And I think that's the otherthing that's going on in the era
today is like what do you standfor?
What is that foundation Like?

(13:33):
If I don't know that and I meanwhen I started it was like oh,
let's create a social mediapersona and create sometimes
we'd actually have a wholepacket of like what?
How do you talk about it onthis channel versus that channel
?
But a lot of places don't havethat baseline.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
Like a lot of places that I've started.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
They're like what are you talking about?
Why would we need that?
I'm like why wouldn't you needthat?
Like you never know what'saround the corner and you just
have to be prepared for anything.
Um, and things that you don'teven realize were a thing.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
Well, and I can imagine too, right with all
things, retail trust and loyalty, right are such a huge priority
for brands, especially withinthe CPG space.
You don't want them to have tokeep reconsidering every week,
right.
You want them to go and grabyour product every week.
And in order to do that, Ithink you have to have some
sense of consistency.
So I think that's such a greatpoint there too that I just
wanted to elaborate on before Igo to my next question.

(14:26):
Is that, yeah, brands, ifyou're not acting in alignment
with your values from the startand you're just shifting with
the sands or the winds of timeor whatever it is that's going
on, like you're actually doingmore harm than good?
Um, cause, I do think too,that's a whole nother discussion
.
Actually, we for those who arelistening, who are in the

(14:49):
Detroit area, actually on the14th we've got all of our
meetups.
So Cleveland's, now Columbus,is meeting in person.
Cincinnati's meeting, again inperson in Detroit.
I'm going to make the trip upto Detroit and see them, and we
were prepping for the panel andhaving this exact conversation.
You know, the customer journeyhas to be more frictionless than
ever.
And then again, like people,you want to buy from brands they
feel that they're in alignmentwith, and if you're not

(15:09):
listening to them?
Then yeah, it could dig you ahole for sure.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe relationship between brands
and retailers, because it haschanged, right.
I feel like it's almost likeflip-flopped the roles a little
bit and like from what even Iremember and again, I've been
more on like the digitalmarketing and advertising side,
but I've also worked on like P&Gand Conagra and Smuckers, so

(15:32):
very much kind of have heard thestories I'm really curious to
know you know, how has thoserelationships have changed?
How are you seeing some of themore successful CPG companies
adopt their approaches to likethose relationships, to those
partnerships?

Speaker 2 (15:53):
I think it's.
It's very, very fascinatingbecause we're in an era where
you're having retail medianetworks is really, and I think
this is something as an agencyyou get lost with really,
because you're working for yourclient and say your client is
Conagra, right, and Conagra isthen calling on Kger and that's

(16:15):
their customer.
And then you're working with8451 and that's technically a
vendor partner for you, but it'sreally technically because
they're owned by kroger, they'rea customer.
So it becomes this whole bigthing.
And the thing that'sinteresting is rmns are starting
to try to get more alignmentwith their parent company.

(16:37):
Um, are they, are they close to100 being there?
No, of course not, but they'retrying, they're making small
strides to that and so they'rebecoming a little bit more
intentional with, like, theirjbp commitments, their up fronts
, their any commitments thatthey need, but at the same time,
as the customer side and so thebrand side, there's also that

(16:58):
commitment so you can stay onshelf and you know that
merchandising commitment thatyou have to adhere to.
So it's like trying to weighand balance the merchandising
commitment with the marketingcommitment and it gets very
tricky very quickly and I thinkwhat's probably going to happen
and I'm seeing some of theseactually happen, successful, I

(17:19):
don't know.
I think we're still in that testand learn era, if you will, of
I'm going to push back on ourretail media network and say, no
, we're not going to hit thiscrazy number that you're giving
us, because the number is alwaysgrowing off of what you spent
versus what you committed to andyou have various different
things.
It could be innovation that'scoming out.
It could have been, you know,price increases that weighed

(17:43):
into this, and so it's making itharder and all the numbers are
doing is going up and up and upand up, and I think retailers
are starting to realize thatthey need to be a little bit
more strict or not strict, butless strict on what they're
trying to do to kind of lowerthat expectation, because the
expectations are becomingastronomical and almost

(18:04):
unapproachable.
And I think the ones thatactually partner and have those
honest conversations andactually have those JVPs are the
ones that are moving thingsforward.
But even then, I've been inmany JBPs that are not the most
effective of conversations andthe partnership is not really
there.
It's more of like he said, shesaid, and it gets crazy.

(18:25):
But then the ones that are likeokay, this is what I can do,
and this is where I'm willing tomeet you and then kind of
showcasing and weighing thatpros and cons.
I think those are the ones thatyou know like hey, we're willing
to test this, are the ones thatare starting to be more
successful.
But it's also harder becauseyou've got the smaller brands
that aren't even at the tableand it's only the big brands

(18:48):
paving the way.
So some of those are successfuland some of them way not
successful.
So it's an interesting dynamicand it'll be interesting to see.
I think they're starting to getsome shifts.
I'm definitely seeing thatacross a couple of different
retail media networks and howthey're shifting things.
But at the same time it's aunique environment to be in and

(19:08):
it'll be interesting to see ifthe pushback from brands
actually makes the retailer kindof come down a little bit and
make it more realistic.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah, it's been really interesting to watch
because I've been saying so likeI used to work on Gillette for
example, and direct to consumer.
It's like it used to be, likethe big brands, big CPG names.
They rolled the shelf space,they got the premium spots.
You know they obviously havethe means, the budget,
everything.
But then all of a sudden youstart seeing these disruptors
which come in the form ofdirect-to-consumer brands to

(19:37):
start with so like Harry's is agreat example of a
direct-to-consumer brand tostart only online sales and
eventually worked into retail.
And it's so funny because thenI was actually working on
Gillette at a time when theywere like how do we get DTC off
the ground?
We got to do it fast, and soit's just really interesting to
see that kind of change indynamic, and so I was kind of

(19:57):
curious.
You know, considering the factthat direct to consumer is still
like a thriving and growingthing, it's definitely disrupted
those traditional retailrelationships.
How do you see DTC strategiesinfluencing retail media and how
can established brands, likemaybe some of our clients, adapt
these approaches into withintheir existing retail
partnerships?

Speaker 2 (20:18):
Well, I think, in order to really kind of embrace
that DTC mentality is you reallyhave to like make sure you're
working your data, you'reworking that personalization and
you're kind of like beingreally flexible, because if you
think about DTCs, they do a lotmore of they're willing to take
risks, whereas the bigger brandsdon't want to take the risks as
much.
They're wanting to do the triedand true Maybe, maybe have a

(20:41):
test and learn budget, maybe not.
Whereas DTC is like you want totest and learn something, Sure,
we're going to, we're all in,like we have nothing to lose,
but to keep trying.
I mean I know I'll watch likeShark Tank and it's fun to watch
things on shark tank and thenlike see it come to life in real
life afterwards, yeah, um, andit's, and it kind of is

(21:01):
influenced, influential.
It's like what have they beendoing?
And I think it's a thinkingoutside of the box, it's being
flexible, it's really kind ofleaning into that data, that
personalization, and taking itto the forefront and not being
scared to try something, and Ithink the DTC has that really
mapped out.
Are they successful in some ofthe things they've done?
No, but there's a lot of thingsthey are doing.

(21:24):
It's very grassroots and Ithink we forget about the
grassroots technology and theopportunities that grassroots
provides.
I know when I started I waslike hey, let's talk about
grassroots, and now it's like Idon't hear that word ever
anymore, and I think DTCembraces it, because they have
to be scrappy, yeah, and theydon't have as many dollars.
So it's like, if I'm going to domarketing, this is what I'm

(21:46):
going to do, and if it doesn'twork, I'm going to try this,
whereas brands are constantlylike I want to keep doing what
I'm doing but, after a time thatstarts kind of flatline and if
you're not constantly tryingsomething different, you're not
going to keep moving forward,and I think that's something
that the number one thing thatDTC can a hundred percent
influence the brands is trysomething new they are they

(22:08):
really?
Are Be.
Embrace the ambiguity, embracethe difference.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry , gillette, one more blade isn't
going to cut it.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
I love you guys.
Love you guys, but it ain't.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
and it's crazy because this all happened, gosh,
I think this was back in 2011,2012, I think, um, or maybe just
after that.
So I mean, it's not even been10 years and I just even
remember, like the just thesheer amount of disruption.
And then again, like once you,you see it, you can't unsee it.
I would start to look around andbe like, okay, yeah, the hot,
the honest company they were d2cfirst harry or shave club, like

(22:41):
there's so many brands now thatare doing that like testing and
learning, being nimble, agile,getting their product and
because they've got theircustomer right and then they've
got the power to go in and belike we want how, we want shelf
space.
You, you know yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
Well, and I think the other thing is is they are
really embraced, like theirpersona and they know their
brand heritage and I thinkthat's really key Cause if you
think about the ones that you'venamed, all of them you can
pretty much say they stand forthis and they stand for that.
And it's not ambiguous of likeit could stand for this and it
could stand for that.
Like I know in my time atMentos, like we changed our

(23:17):
brand position so many times,you know, because we were trying
to find the right niche, andsince then it's changed, sure,
and so it's fascinating.
You have to change because itdoesn't always stay the same,
because each generation isdifferent and how they approach
things is different.
But I think, at the end of theday, these direct to consumer or

(23:43):
direct DTC brands are reallyembracing that they know who
they are and they won't changefor that, because they only have
a couple of products at thispoint and then eventually they
grow.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, yeah, it is smart too, I agree, cause it's
not.
It's not changing to the forthe sake of changing, or to the
point of whiplash right, becausethat creates distrust or
disloyalty within your customersbecause they're like, who the
hell are you?
I don't understand what you sellor what you do.
So I do think they'remaintaining that consistency.
But you're right, these biggerbrands, you know that feel and
seem so set in stone.
It's like how can we embracethat mentality a little bit more

(24:08):
and really look at it asevolving?
Right?
It's not about a big shift orchange.
So you know, that was one thing.
I'm coming back to a differentquestion that I skipped ahead on
, because I think it all comestogether nicely with this.
Since you've worked across likeseven major retailers that's
quite a few developing mediastrategies, how do you approach
the challenge of creatingcohesive brand experiences,

(24:31):
because we've touched on that acouple times now while
navigating the uniquerequirements of every retail
platform?
That's hard.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
It is very difficult it's very, very challenging
because everyone's different.
Everyone has a little new onesor a little different thing,
like, if you think about likeMeijer, for instance, meijer is
very community driven, so youwant to make sure that what
you're doing at a Meij admire isreally leaning into that
community aspect that everyonehas, whereas a Walmart it's all

(24:58):
about the value, whereas Costcois about the experience.
So it's like you have toembrace the different nuances of
each retailer.
So you have to make sure thatoverarching you have a good
brand foundation, that youroverarching brand is looking the
same, having that consistentfeel and consistent look.
Overarching brand is lookingthe same, having that consistent
feel and consistent look.

(25:18):
So then, if I see an ad forWalmart and I see an ad for a
national ad or I see the Meyerad, I'm seeing that consistent
look and message, but themessage itself will be different
.
So I will have more of acommunity sound mindset for that
Meyer shopper versus that valuedriven and that one-stop shop
for like the Walmarts of theworld.
So it's just trying to figurethose out.

(25:39):
But then it's also kind ofleaning into each of the
different retail media networksof benefits and it's like
sometimes you have to lean intothose third party providers
outside of the three, the retailmedia networks, because they
don't offer what you need toreach your consumer.
You have to understand who yourtarget audience is and you also
have to be and especially intoday's world you have to be in

(26:00):
a place where you're willing tokind of adapt your audience,
because it's not always thecurrent and lapsed households.
It's like where else can Iunlock other new things?
Because people are changing,people are evolving and at the
end of the day you don't alwayswant to be getting those Gen X
or baby boomers becauseeventually they're going to age
out of the system.
You've got to keep innovatingand keep getting the new

(26:21):
generation in there and thinkingbeyond that.
And so it's.
It's very interesting to makesure you have that baseline, but
it's also being willing tochange up the creative, change
up the tactic that you're goingat it with those retailers and
maybe even adjusting theaudience slightly, because it's
a different person who'sshopping at a Meijer versus a

(26:43):
shopping at a Walmart and intoday's environment everyone's
shopping at multiple differentplaces.
So how can I get them?
If they're going to Walmart fortheir everyday groceries but
then they're going to Costco toget those big bulk items, how do
I make sure I'm getting to themon that, or if they're going to
Costco for their date night.

Speaker 1 (27:00):
For all intents and purposes, how do I reach them
there?
I love some Costco, I know it'svery fascinating.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
It's very much an experience, very much got to get
to Costco.
If you're a Costco person, youare a Costco person.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
It is an event.
It is an event, well, and thatleads so nicely into our next
question, right?
Because everything you justmentioned, like it, just goes to
show how fragmented this wholecommerce landscape has become.
What are some strategies thatyou have found effective,
working with your clients andwith your team, for maintaining
that competitive edge as well?

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Because, yeah, it's just a lot to manage edge as
well, because, yeah, it's, it'sjust a lot to manage.
It's a lot, it really is.
And I think it's extremelychallenging because, the
industry is changing um,especially from a measurement
standpoint.
I think that's where we kind ofdouble down on is you've got to
really understand the data, likelet the data tell a story, have
that generic name maybe it'srow as, maybe it's um

(27:55):
impressions whatever it happensto be, I wouldn't say it should
be impressions.
Roas is definitely the betteroption.
But you look at that ROASacross the different retailers,
see where it's netting out.
At the end of the day,everybody's doing, even though
they're supposed to be a genericmedia math.
Everyone has their own versionof media math.
So, understanding how they'regetting to the media math,
everyone has their own versionof media math, um.

(28:15):
So understanding how they'regetting to the media math,
understanding how you need toadapt it to the different um
retailers you're working withdifferent partners you're
working with so that you canreally see a clear picture of
what that data looks like acrosseveryone.
And really leveraging your ownfirst party data to really kind
of unlock that and I thinkthat's how you remain
competitive is really showcasinglike okay, I did a CTV ad for

(28:42):
this and this is was my ROAS andlooking at that.
But it's not just looking at theROAS, it's looking at the video
completion rates.
It's looking at the clickthrough rates and really kind of
looking at that tactic byitself, like, was this effective
?
Yes, I feel like it waseffective.
Okay, now I'm pulling it intothe bigger campaign of
everything I did how was iteffective there?

(29:03):
And kind of asking thosequestions.
So it's not just like takingthe data and say, okay, I'm just
going to stay with CTV forever.
It's more of hey, I'm going toshift this because I'm seeing in
this area that shoppablerecipes is doing much better or
whatever it happens to be,whatever that that component is.
But it's really kind ofthinking it in two veins.

(29:23):
It's like, okay, for thiscampaign, how did it perform?
For overarching, for everythingI've done this year, how did it
perform?
And really kind of pushing thatboundary and finding that
measurement element.
That really kind of leans intoit.
And sorry, piper loves talkingabout retail media, so she is
here.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
Okay, we've got questions for her too.
We'll leave this for her toanswer.
Now, I love it.
Yeah, that's so great.
I think priority dollars andlooking at how and where you're
spending, personalization,customization, like all those
things, are definitelycompetitive edges.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
This is why we have our live listening audience here
with us too.
Amy would like some clarity onwhat JDP is.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
We talk all these terms and I'm like, oh yeah, we
should define.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
Sorry about that.
Let's help Amy out.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
It's a joint business plan.
So typically your top 10customers sometimes it's more
than that will actually meetwith the retailer itself and
have a meeting directly withthat retailer to talk about what
is their plan for the year.
And they kind of can cometogether to kind of build out a
plan on how to reach thecustomers, because at the end of
the day, the ultimate goalbetween that manufacturer and

(30:27):
that retailer is to sell productat that store.
So they have those jointbusiness plans and joint
business discussions.
Some of them are called top totop.
So depending on the retailer itcould be a smaller one and it
goes to top to top.
But JVP is kind of the generalterm.
And then, when it comes toretail media networks, they're
having a JVP directly with themanufacturer to say, hey, I'm

(30:50):
going to spend X, y, z amount ofmoney with you and I'm going to
get you this CPM efficiency, orI'm going to get you this CPM
efficiency or I'm going to giveyou this added value or this
report, things like that.
So they also have their ownJVPs.
So JVPs can be a JVP with aretailer, it could be a JVP with
an RMN Retail Media Network.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yeah, that's fantastic Again.
What's the win-win foreverybody?
How can?
We optimize and leverage thedata, customer information and
data which I know certainretailers are really protective
of right, because I meanobviously it's a huge advantage
for them but, yeah, having thosepartnerships is kind of a good
way to start to break down someof those limitations and
barriers.
So back to where you were before.
You were talking a lot aboutlike key performance indicators,

(31:29):
KPIs, metrics, ROAS, which isreturn on advertising, in case
you've not heard the term before, listeners how do you approach,
how's your approach tomeasuring success evolved as
retail media has matured?
What metrics should marketersbe prioritizing?
Because I think there are sucha thing as like those feel good
vanity metrics that sometimesit's just nice to see, but did

(31:50):
it actually yield anything?

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Well, and I think it's it's come.
I went to a conference earlierthis year and it comes down to
like the.
There's like four levels ofmeasurement, not everyone's at
all four levels.
So at first you have thetraditional media, which is your
typical like clicks,impressions, you know very
things that aren't reallytelling you a lot, but it's
telling you how many peopleyou've reached, how many people

(32:13):
you've captured.
And then you've got the leveltwo, which is getting a little
bit more into like what's myreturn on ad spend, but it's not
giving you like the controlgroup versus the post control,
like, and I think that's where alot of people are kind of
struggling a little bit.
It's like okay, did my mediaactually activate or was it just

(32:34):
because we absolutely happenedto run a merch event during that
time?
Like we had a buy three, getfive or whatever it is, um, you
know, and so what else was infactor?
And I think we're getting intoa place where, like, level three
is where you're really beingable to get kind of that clean
room analysis, where you'rereally focusing in on that

(32:54):
specific um area, um and tactics.
So clean room analysis, whereyou're really focusing in on
that specific area and tactics,so clean room is where you're
taking out all the other extraareas and just focusing on that
one tactic to see how itperforms, and so that's where a
lot of people are trying to getto.
But the other thing is is atthe end of the day, we're all
aiming to get to level four,which is where I was kind of
alluding to earlier, where I cantake what I did at Kroger and I

(33:17):
can take what I did at Walmart,put them together side by side,
knowing that the metrics thatI'm using are identical and I
can compare them across theboard.
Right now, if I take what KPMsends me versus Walmart Connect,
totally two different thingsand various different things
that they have in play.
So it's really understandinghow they're getting to that

(33:38):
metric and kind of asking thatquestion and not being afraid to
ask the question where are yougetting the metric, how are you
doing the math?
What does that look like?
I have a meeting next week withone of our retail media
networks asking that veryquestion, because every time
they come back it's always likethree times higher than everyone
else's.
So it's like okay, well, whereare you getting?

(33:59):
it and how are you doing it?
There's a lot of duplication.
So, understanding theduplication that they might be
picking up across other places,because that's also a factor,
because, at the end of the day,you're not just going to run an
offsite ad.
You're probably going to run anonsite ad, you're going to have
some search, you're going tohave a whole bunch of other
stuff.
It's very omni channel focusedand so you have to consider like
, okay, am I just looking atthis versus that?
And I think, at the end of theday, the easiest one is ROAS.
But I think it's alsoincremental sales.

(34:20):
Yes, because how much wasincremental, like how much did I
actually get on top of thisthat I wouldn't have got had I
not run this campaign?
And I think that one's the keyone and any kind of metrics that
you're looking at.

Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, yeah, how did you move the needle?
But I love a couple of thingsyou pointed out there.
It's like, even when you seelike really high or like three
times like what it normally is,or a three times benchmark, sure
it's a reason to celebrate, but, like you said, it's also a
reason to question, because it'slike I mean toilet paper during
covid, come on, oh yeah, ofcourse, talk about metrics.

(34:53):
You might as well just throwout the window like hopefully,
hopefully we will never have arun on toilet paper, like we did
during covid.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Well, right now it's eggs, so yeah, it's true, that's
true.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
so you have to think about those external and
economic and other situationalfactors, like you said, that
could have caused that spike,instead of just attributing it
to maybe the wrong thing.
Yeah, so yeah, don't celebratetoo soon.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
It could be so simple as the weather.
I mean.
Yes, you know, when we werefighting the fires in California
, it was probably just liters ofwater, water, like you know,
that went spiked and it's youhave to think about those
factors to to see if it was anisolated incident or it's
actually something that will bea long term impact.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
Yeah, well, on the happier side of like the
positive aspect of you know datadriving kind of something that
was obviously like good andworked well or that you were
able to take in leverage topivot I was wondering if you
could share an example wheredata insights had led to maybe
an unexpected opportunity, astrategy pivot that then helped
to deliver some results Ahundred percent.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
I think one of the ones that really sticks with me
and I'm going to have to be kindof vague on some of the details
, but it's really looking ataudience insights and seeing
what we can do to unwrapaudiences, because audience
there's so much more with thedata that's being provided.
Like you know, um, variousdifferent networks are providing
additional data for first partydata that's available and

(36:18):
they're making it more readilyavailable for their marketing
efforts.
So a lot of RMNs will stilldefault to the current and last
households.
That's great.
That's great, it's exciting.
Not exciting, it's reallythinking beyond that.
So, if you're looking at aspecific occasion, trying to
think about, like, okay, I'mgoing to be advertising within

(36:41):
Valentine's Day or something,and you're thinking like, okay,
beyond just the, the boyfriendand girlfriend, husband, wife,
um, you know, mom and kids, dadand kids getting their um things
, what else is out there?
Well, galentine's day is reallykind of like taking a big, big
emphasis and it's a new thing.
It's like is there a way, anopportunity to to really see who

(37:03):
the Galentine's are and reallykind of double down on that, and
that's something that is like,okay, it's a new trend.
How can we capitalize on thistrend, how can we bring it into
our media and really kind ofunlock that?
And so that's some stuff thatwe've done on our side of just
really unlocking and seeing newhouseholds and new opportunities
, and so data has definitelytold us that story.

(37:25):
It's like you have anotherperson out there Like how can we
unlock that, is it?
Hey, there's a trend with acertain I'm trying to think of a
good example, like I don't knowwhy white Lotus comes to mind,
but something, maybe white Lotusthey use in their, in their
show that people are like oh mygosh, this is so amazing, I need
to have this.
It's like how can I unlock thatfrom a data perspective?

(37:47):
Because there's something elsegoing on.
Like people are really spikingwith like white Lotus.
Why is there something I cantie into white Lotus to bring
into my advertising?
So I think it's things like thatand just really kind of
thinking about your audiencebeyond just the stereotypical
current and lapsed, and think bethinking a little bit more in
depth on what you're actuallydoing.
So that's what we've done iswe've actually been able to

(38:10):
identify audiences that you'relike Hmm, I never really thought
about that audience, but yeah,that could be an untapped market
and by doing that, it actuallybecame one of our top performing
markets and we were like, yeah,we're using that again and
we're using it across otherretailers beyond just the one
that we used it with.
So, again, looking at the data,kind of understanding, like who

(38:30):
is this person, what's some ofthe interest, what's some of
those cross opportunities,what's some of that things that
are popping in the everyday?
that we can really kind ofleverage within our stuff, so
it's kind of a combination ofdata and then understanding
what's happening in the market.
Leverage within our stuff soit's kind of a combination of
data and then understandingwhat's happening in the market
and I think kind of tying thisinto probably a future question

(38:50):
is like AI is helping with thattoo.
So it's can, like, take thedata, show like hey, what's
happening?
Like why is this popping duringwhite Lotus?
And it could say, well, this iswhat's happening.
So you may not be familiar, butyou can actually tie it into
what you're looking for and thenpull it back with other data to
tell that story.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
Yeah, no, I love it.
That's great.
Yeah, I agree, and we've hadthe conversation a number of
times here on the podcast and atTogether Digital Events.
It's just like AI it wasliterally built for pattern
recognition and we have a bigdata problem within our industry
, right, where we have moreinformation than we even know
what to do with because ourhuman brains can't process.
So, yeah, exactly, use AI forsomething.
Please don't use it to writecrappy copy Like no, no.

(39:31):
Instead, give it all theanalytics and the data and say
find me some insights, find mesome new markets, tell me where
I'm not reaching for money right.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, like you have to breed the AI to like make it
work to the best, but it willtake the stuff that it will take
you weeks to do and does it inseconds and then you take that
and you really make it work hardfor you.
And I think that's reallywhat's happening in a lot of the
different um RMNs is we'reactually having a lot of
automation bidding that looklike modeling.

(40:01):
We have a lot of um, you know,even dynamic creative that's
going on in the marketplace thatcan.
It's all AI based, taking it tothat next level and making sure
that we're reaching the targetwhen we need to reach them,
where we need to reach them andhow we need to reach them.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
Yeah, and the way they want to be reached yeah.
It made me think too, as youwere talking.
It reminded me like I think oneof my favorite brands that has
really taken that consumerinsight and leveraged it and did
something good with it was OldSpice.
They know that women are buyingthe product.
So everything that you see,it's like they.
Yes, it's advertising Old Spice, which is body wash for men,
but they are talking to thewomen, you know, as long as the

(40:40):
audience insight.
They have unlocked Totally andit was so funny because I
remember this happened like morethan 10 years ago and
everybody's like so gobsmackedby it and I'm like but we do 80%
of the buying, like we are 80%of the buying power in the
country.
Of course we're buying thefreaking body wash.
Yes, you should be talking tous because, yes, I want my man
to smell like a man and I'mchoosing the scent, not him,
because I got to be the one tosmell him.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
Yeah, exactly, it's like why?
Why do I want him to smell likesomething else, like?

Speaker 1 (41:06):
yeah, and then it's just yeah.
So there's just so muchopportunity there as well too.
Again whole, nother fun littlerabbit hole we could go down,
but we don't have the whole day,so all right, I'm curious.
You know your journey in theindustry.
Like you said, you kind of havebeen here from like the
beginning of those retail medianetworks.
Is there any particular, likecommonly held belief that you've

(41:29):
changed your mind about sinceyou've been in the industry?

Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah, I think it's becoming more and more apparent,
like there's always been thatmarketing funnel.
It's always been.
I've done so many campaigns, somany presentations with that
marketing funnel saying, oh,we've got the awareness, you got
the consideration, you gotconversion, and I always add the
loyalty because I want them tocome back Right.
Um, it's not that same, it'snot there anymore.
Um, it's so not there.

(41:53):
And I I talked about it alittle bit earlier to earlier in
our chat about how I can gofrom not even being in the
mindset to purchasing in liketwo seconds and that belief has
totally went out the door.
I think you have to be, youhave to make your ads shoppable,
you have to think of thatconsumer journey, you have to
make sure you're really kind ofhoning in on all of that,

(42:16):
otherwise you're you're missingout, like it's a total linear
process and I think what.
I heard in a conference againearlier this year was hey, my
brand team thinks we're awarethat they're going to do their
awareness and then the retail isgoing to do that consideration
conversion.
And it's not that you have tobe working together holistically
the entire time, because Istill firmly believe, and I

(42:39):
don't think it's gone anywhereat the power of three, like you
see the thing at least threetimes and then you're going to
purchase it because it's now topof mind for you and so the
brand does need to stilladvertise, still create that
foundation of what that brandstands for.
But then the retail mediareally comes in and gives you
the opportunity to purchase itand and really encourages you to

(43:00):
purchase it at whateverretailer you happen to be going
to and you happen to be favoringat that moment in time.
And people are not loyal to anyretailer anymore it's very much
, except for costco.
The costco love, um, but at theend of the day they're they're
willing to go other places.
So it's like how do I continueto build that and push that?

(43:22):
And I think the reach, themarketing funnel, is still
important.
You still need to know if I'mdoing a CTV ad, it should be an
awareness build, but know thatthat awareness is still adding
that context that I should bebuying it at a dollar general,
versus you know, the Walgreensor whatever, um you know, and
it's just kind of reinforcing it.
If I see it three times and Ihappen to be at that dollar

(43:44):
general, I'm going to purchasethat product, um, and I think
that's just the important partis just kind of continuing to
see holistically how all of theplans work together and it's not
yours is here and mine is here,it's.
We have to work together inlike that circle and I think
we're calling it now Um, theit's.
It's more of that spiral andthat flywheel is what we're

(44:06):
calling it and that's you haveto embrace the flywheel versus
marketing funnel, which it'shard for me to even say flywheel
for it.
But that's really where theindustry is going and it's no
longer the funnel, it's theflywheel.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
Yeah, the funnel has definitely collapsed.
Like you're a hundred percentright with impulse buying, with
immediate gratification, beingable to sell through video,
through social, all of thosedifferent things.
I mean none of us sitting heretoday can't say we haven't done
a little clickety, click late atthe night and late at night and
we're like wait, what did I buy?
It just shows up at home.
You're like I think I rememberbuying this.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
I know I'm like I have that.
I have that Amazon box and Idon't know what's in it.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
It's like Christmas all over again.
I mean, I don't know I gotmyself something.
I was half asleep, but I knowit's going to be great when I
open it up.
I don't know why.
About this it's fine, oh,awesome.
So yeah, I mean, I did have aquestion in here about AI, which
I feel like you kind of alreadyaddressed.
I'm going to bypass that oneand go to for the brands that
are just beginning, cause wetalked a lot about big brands,
um, but for those, I have a lotof friends who own small
businesses that are working tobuild retail media as like a
growth strategy, and it'sobviously it's hard right.

(45:13):
You're contending with a lot ofdifferent people, a lot of
different things trying to getinto these stores.
It's like moving a mountain.
What are some?
What are some places in whichthey could start looking for
opportunities?

Speaker 2 (45:24):
Yeah, I think the thing that you have to think
about is when you're a smallerbrand, you have to think about
what retailer do I really wantto push on and really double
down on, because if you get intosome of the bigger ones, the
bigger players have very highminimums and if you're a smaller
player, you don't have.
Your minimum is your, but theirminimum is your budget for the
year.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yeah, does not make sense, so you have to be a
little bit more scrappy.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
You have to think beyond just the RMNs.
Some RMNs do have lower budgets, especially like the smaller
retailers.
So you have to think, okay,where's the consumers that I
want to move the needle, how doI get to them?
And in some cases you might bestarting off small and just
doing search across differentones.
Search is probably the best oneto be in because it's the

(46:11):
closest way to conversion, butyou have to be driving that
awareness and that considerationto search is more of that
consideration conversion metric.
So you have to think beyond,since, like, maybe it's
partnering with third partyproviders, building that
awareness, building thatmomentum.

(46:33):
Because I've talked to severalretailer or CPGs that are so
small and they're like, yeah,we're going to go into Kroger
and we're going to advertisewithin Kroger and I'm like, okay
, but Kroger doesn't know, likeKPM doesn't understand how to do
division level media.
They aren't made that way,they're made at the national
level.
So if you're not able to dothat, that division level, and
you don't have presence andacross all of their divisions,

(46:54):
you're out of luck and you'rejust wasting money and not
getting it very far.
So you need to figure out howdo I make my dollar stretch
further and what is some ofthose more economical ways of
getting to where I need to be?
So, like if staying within theKroger world because we're in
Cincinnati is we've got like,the more economical is your

(47:14):
search, your targeted onsite adsare economical, but those may
not work for you.
I've had several clients thatthey just they don't work
because most of my sales are instore versus online.
So it's just really kind ofembracing like what can work and
I think having that test andlearn mentality try something,
don't be afraid to try somethingand then, once you find that
tried and true, then like,continue to think through your

(47:37):
budgets but always have thattest and learn, because that
test and learn is going to likehelp you tremendously.
Well, there's several times inmy career where I was like I
don't want to test that and I'mso glad I tested it because it
became so much mental to futurecampaigns.
Had I not, I would have beenbehind the eight ball for
everything else.
So being scrappy, understandingyour consumer, understanding

(47:59):
how you're approaching it andwhere to find them, is going to
be really key to it.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
Yeah, and I will say just cautionary tale.
I mean, when you are a small,even a midsize company like
Greek Dale could be the thingthat if you go bust, if you're
not careful, even though they'repodcasts.
I want to plug for a secondbecause it's so amazing.
You should check it out too.
It's called the TogetherMarketing Rescue, and we had
this exact conversation lastweek with a young woman here in
Cincinnati who owns the Daviscookie company.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
So y'all go check out the Davis company, her website.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
They have a food truck that comes to your office
so you guys should get somecookies for an office day.
Yeah, they do like cookieclasses.
She does so much.
She's got online sales, acookie subscription box, and you
know we got to talking aboutretail and she got into the
Oakley Kroger's and my two colike hosts for the show were

(48:48):
just gushing, because the wholepoint of this podcast is to
bring small businesses in thatare struggling with a particular
pain point and we help figureout how to diagnose that
situation and then help supportthem with marketing.
And then our members who providemarketing services pitch them.
So we're putting smallbusinesses that are struggling
with marketing and marketers whoprovide marketing services from
like either independentcontractor or boutique agency

(49:08):
situation to then like meettheir next client is so cool,
and so our members are gettingnew business and these small
businesses are getting support.
But it was really funny becauseyou know Christina Davis, the
woman who owns it, was like well, we got to.
We have to learn what productsare going to be working at shelf
, because something I learnedthat I didn't know is that you
pay for the products that don'tsell.

(49:28):
Yeah, and so outside of, likeall the additional fees and
costs to like market and store,to advertise for the shelf space
and also if it doesn't sell.
And so that's where I thinkyour approach of test and learn
is so wise and I think Christineis such a smart business woman.
So, christine, if you'relistening seriously like so
smart to say like yeah, retailis our goal, but ultimately I

(49:49):
can't put anything andeverything behind it because I
could lose my shirt.
Like I really need to do it asa phased, you know more agile
learning approach.
But yeah, so you can check out,check it out for Oakley
Kroger's if you're close bylisteners, oh, I totally have a
cookie company.
They have like cookie dough.
It's like a cookie monster.
One it's like blue.
It's really fun.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
I know somebody who goes all the time to Oakley
Kroger, so I'll make her buy meone, and she goes next time.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Love it, love supporting our small businesses.
All right, I've got one morequestion before we go into our
power round, and then it lookslike we've got actually one
quick question from our audience.
Actually, I'm going to go aheadand ask Nancy's question.
She wants to know, regardingaudience data, are you
referencing the RMN data or thebrand's data, and which data is
the more valuable and how do youlook at the data as a whole?

Speaker 2 (50:35):
Great question, I think it's important to look at
both.
To be honest with you, andsometimes it's harder to get the
first party data aligned to theboth, but at the end of the day
, being able to kind of digestit both is going to get you a
lot further.
But at the end of the, at thesame time, you have to
understand the RMNs data,because that's what they're

(50:57):
talking to with the retailer andthe retailer is pulling that.
They're not pulling the firstparty data that you have
necessarily, and so you have tounderstand how yours relates to
theirs and yours might betelling slightly different story
and be able to tell why it'stelling a different story, so
that you can talk intelligentlyto your retailer.
But at the end of the day, ifyou can do both, it's better to

(51:19):
do both and to really kind ofstreamline it, because if you're
doing your own data, you cantake it across the different
partners that you have, versusjust doing your data, versus
just their data, because I'vedefinitely seen some partners
and manufacturers getting intotrouble just talking about their
data all day long and theretailer's like it's not

(51:40):
matching mine and there's likethis, you know, destruction of
conversation if you're not ableto kind of like swing both ways.
So it's really good to be ableto show in both terms and to be
able to understand and dissectit.
At the end of the day, the goalis to ultimately use your first
party data and tie it back tothat retailer media data.

(52:01):
But if you're not as welladvanced with the first party on
your side, RMN is fine.
Just understand the nuances,understand how it's devised and
created in order to like reallytalk it.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
Yeah, and knowing that it's not your own right,
it's like your own owned data.
Yeah, exactly, awesome, thanks,we'll keep the questions coming
.
If you've got them, folks,we're still here.
We've got a few minutes left,all right.
Before we move into the powerround, I wanted to know, as we
look forward, how do you see therelationship between retail
media, e-commerce andtraditional marketing evolving
in the next few years?

Speaker 2 (52:34):
It is a hundred percent going to evolve.
It's going to constantly change.
I feel like I can't evenpredict some of the things that
will probably be on the horizon.
I mean, we have so manydifferent things that are
talking about it.
Like you know, people havetalked about the metaverse.
Is it going to happen, Is itnot?

Speaker 1 (52:54):
going to happen, but maybe not as exciting.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
You know, it's like I don't know if the how big the
metaverse is going to be or ifit's not like we keep talking
about it.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
We keep dancing around it, um.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
Now, like a like you and I talked about earlier, like
QR codes were like, oh, it'sgoing to be big, and then it
wasn't.
Now it is, it's just mainstream, um.
So I feel like things areconstantly evolving.
I will say that what's going tohappen is traditional media is
going to have to start thinkingbeyond their traditional metrics
.
Right, you're going to have tothink beyond, like that
impressions and that storecounts, and you're going to have

(53:31):
to get a little bit morecreative and, whether that's
with AR technology or it'sdefinitely with the
personalization, it's makingthat data work harder and
smarter for you.
Yeah, and using that AItechnology that we have out
there, you know, it's definitelygoing to have that greater
emphasis on measurement andattribution.
I mean thinking beyond, likeeverything siloed.

(53:55):
It's very much an integratedapproach and if we aren't
integrating, we forward thinking, we're we're really going to be
behind the ball game, cause Iknow that there's some brands
out there that are just nowstarting to talk about digital
media and I'm like, well, you'rea little behind the ball, um,
right, we'll get there, um, butit's not, it's not a lost cause.

(54:19):
I mean, you have to startsomewhere, but it's like you're
having to think holistically.
If you want to, if you want tobe something, you have to always
embrace that change, alwaysembrace that ambiguity, like,
had someone not told me early inmy career like you need to
understand digital, I would notbe where I am at today had I not
embraced it.
Or had I walked away from my myboss when he said, yeah, you're

(54:41):
doing shopper marketing.
I'm like, no, I don't want todo that.
Um, you know, I'm here forbrand management.
I don't know what you'retalking about.
Um, so had I not done that andhad you not had that embrace,
you're not gonna see that future, because the future is stuff
that we haven't even dreamed upyet at the end of the day, um,
and so you have to make sureyou're embracing that and taking

(55:02):
it to that next level yeah, Iagree with you.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
The more like holistic we can look at all of
it and the less siloed we are,it makes so much sense.
I mean, it's funny.
I was just kind of commentingtoday in a morning meeting with
somebody about even our nametogether digital.
We were started in 2016 when wehad digital only agencies and
above the line and PR and youknow, influencer, it's like all
these different things, and nowyou don't see just everybody's

(55:27):
digital right.
We need to be thinking forwardand ahead and holistically as
brands Because, again, ourcustomers, they don't see those
things as segmented or siloed.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Yeah, it's all integrated and it's all going to
work together.
I don't think traditional mediais going to be what it
traditionally has been.
It's going to be definitelymore integrated.
You can start to see some of itEven even if you listen to the
radio, like.
I've noticed drastic changeswith just how radio is is
showcasing it, how TV isshowcasing themselves.

(55:57):
Um, and it's just.
You have to, they have to thinkbeyond, otherwise they're going
to end up becoming and this isa really bad analogy but um,
you're going to become the Searsof the world, where Sears
doesn't exist.
It was one of the leadingmanufacturers and retailers.
Now, it's not because it didn'tembrace the change, it did not
Great example, Don't be Sears?

Speaker 1 (56:17):
Oh, I do miss Sears.
Ron, Put on your Sunday bestkids All right.
Ashley wants to know could yousuggest one or two resources for
someone just getting intoretailer media?
That is consistently a solidplace to go for new cutting edge
info, outside of you of course.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
You could always reach out to me, of course, but
the places that I would start Igot started with Path to
Purchase.
Path to Purchase was where Iwent to the first conference.
That's where my boss sent me tolearn about shopper marketing.
It's still traditionally.
It's really a strong place togo and to get that information.
If you're looking at specificretailers, kantar Retail IQ is
always a great source ofinformation, as well as if

(57:00):
you're trying to dive intoretail and understand them in a
more detailed level, if you will.
Linkedin, ironically, is one ofmy favorite sources because
people are always willing tohelp within LinkedIn and there's
so many groups and chats thatyou can just ask a random
question and there's no judgment, which I love.

(57:20):
That, and that's how I'vetaught a lot of myself on
different things is through that.
I do get daily updates from,like, retail dive I think that's
what it is and there'sdifferent marketing dive.
There's a whole bunch ofdifferent retail updates that
you can get and those are justreally helpful just to get those

(57:42):
those snapshots of what'shappening in the industry and if
someone thing sparks yourcuriosity, you dive deeper and
you can learn what's happeningbecause understanding your
retailer that you're workingwith and what they're facing in
their everyday is actually goingto help inform your, your
strategy and how you'reapproaching them and working
with them and their customers.
Cause you've got to know heytarget is facing some backlash

(58:04):
recently, so how do I combatthat?
How do I make things unique anddifferent in that space?

Speaker 1 (58:11):
I love it.
I love it.
That's such great advice.
Those are some good places.
I'm sure our listeners aretaking lots of notes.
I would say one other thing,too is, just like you know, you
said people reach out.
I love that, so we'll drop yourLinkedIn link into the show
notes and everything.
But also just that, just thatwhole aspect of like peers as
mentors, like finding otherwomen that are in the retail
media space.
You know we have a lot of thatgoing right now with the other

(58:34):
digital.
In fact, our peer groupapplications are open.
Members, if you're listening,sign up and get your peer group.
Having your own little personalboard of directors.
Women that are kind of like inthe same space, that know the
pains of all that but then alsocan like talk about life and
everything else in between, isso beneficial.
So I think, surroundingyourself, you know, finding
other communities or other waysto plug into communities that

(58:57):
are in alignment with or havepeople that do retail marketing.
It's just a smart way to go.
You're going to feel like you'rewith your peeps.
They're going to know the painpoints, but they're also maybe a
half set up ahead of you, whichis maybe all you need to kind
of keep ahead, because sometimesit feels like we have to keep
up.
We have to keep up, but then,we also have to keep our jobs
and manage our families andother.
We want to live, you know, yeah, and so I think community is

(59:19):
another great way to do that.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
So yeah, I had a friend call me the other day.
She's like, okay, I'm new tothis and tell me what I need to
know.
And she's like in the 30 minuteconversation we had, she's like
you've taught me more than I'vebeen able to learn at work and
thank you because her boss is sobusy.
They're just constantly movingand it was just like, hey, what
do you want to know?
And I can help you know.
And just, I think anyone in theindustry is typically has that

(59:43):
persona and if they don't,that's sad, because it's a very
small industry we're in.
Everyone tends to cross pathsat one place or another.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
Yeah, no, I love it All right.
Well, we are at time.
The hour just flew by.
Thank you so much, dina, foryour insights and your wisdom
and for sharing it so freely,again, really inspiring and

(01:00:12):
encouraging a lot of ourlisteners that are new to the
space or interested in the space.
And thank you, listeners, forall your fantastic questions.
We love it when we hear fromyou as well.
Yes, all right, thank you forhaving me.
Absolutely my pleasure.
All right, everyone.
So this episode will probablybe up in live later next week.
So keep an eye on that.
Check us out on YouTube.
We are on Spotify, we are oniTunes.
Wherever you stream yourpodcast, you'll probably find us
.
The next two weeks.
I'm actually traveling for somespeaking, so I'll miss you all

(01:00:33):
here, but I'll be back at theend of May for some more amazing
conversations.
Everyone, till then, keepasking, keep giving and keep
growing.
We'll see you soon.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la,
la, la, la la, produced byHeartcast Media.