Your Enneagram & Money Matters

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello everyone and welcome to our weekly power
lounge.
This is your place to hearauthentic conversations from
those who have power to share.
My name is Amy Vaughn and I amthe owner and chief empowerment
officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who choose toshare their knowledge, power
and connections.
You can join the movement attogetherindigitalcom and today I

(00:31):
am thrilled to welcome Kara.
Kara Cosworth-Brindle is afinancial therapist Such a cool,
interesting approach and author, as we've been discussing
before we hopped on here.
Interesting approach and author, as we've been discussing
before we hopped on here.
Multi-author.
We should actually clarify whois revolutionizing how we

(00:52):
understand our relationship withmoney.
As a licensed mental healthprofessional, certified
therapist, tedx speaker, kara isbringing her expertise into the
intersection of psychology andfinance to help people transform
their financial mindset.
She again, multi-author, but onher book Transforming the
Enneagram Edits to FinancialFreedom.
Wait, that wasn't the righttitle, was it?
That's the subtitle Right.

(01:14):
We got it, though, and we'llinclude all the links to in the
show notes for everybody as well, so you can check out all of
Kara's books there.
She's also the founder of CostWeight Counseling and the
co-founder of Financial TherapyClinical Institute.
Kara has dedicated her career tohelping professionals navigate
financial stress and increasetheir wealth consciousness.

(01:35):
All this sounds amazing, kara,everybody here is very excited
to meet you and what makes herapproach I know I am and I'm
speaking for everybody, my mixedcarers approach particularly
powerful is how she connects ourpersonality patterns,
specifically our Enneagram types.
Listeners who are dedicatedlisteners, you know we love all
things personal development hereand Enneagram is totally our

(01:57):
jam but how?
Enneagram relates to our moneyhabits.
So today she's going to help ussee these connections,
understand them and share somepractical strategies on shifting
you from scarcity to abundance.
So as we explore this awesomeand fascinating world of money
and therapy, kara will offersome insights that will
transform not just how we manageour money but how we think

(02:17):
about it.
So join me in welcoming Kara tothe Power Lounge.
Welcome.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Kara Yay, so excited.
I love hearing now about theEnneagram, so I'm with my people
.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yes, you absolutely are, and you know money.
Money is a hard topic.
We are an organization thatsupports women and female
identifying folks, and you knowa lot of us, women especially,
have been conditioned to nottalk about money, not seek money
.
So there's just like outside ofall that societal conditioning,
you being able to come in andhelp us get additional
understanding about you know howwe see money and what our

(02:49):
relationship to money is throughour Enneagram is just one more
layer to help us really peelback and, like you said, shift
from scarcity to abundance.
So super excited to have youhere with us, but I want to
actually back it up, becauseit's like sometimes I write
these questions midweek and thenwe come on the show and I'm
like, oh, but we want toactually back it up, Um, cause
it's like sometimes I writethese questions midweek and then
we come on the show and I'mlike, oh, but we should have
started there.

(03:09):
So I'm actually going to besuper cheeky and do this to you.
Care.
I'm going to ask you adifferent question than what I
sent you earlier.
I want you to kind of giveeverybody just like a quick 10
seconds snapshot in case theyare not familiar yet, Cause I
can't assume this thateverybody's familiar with the
Enneagram.
But what is the Enneagram forthose who aren't familiar?

Speaker 2 (03:26):
So we can enlighten them.
It's called a personality test,but I feel like it's actually a
personal growth and developmentpersonality test, so it's not
like Myers-Briggs or the bigfive that people are very
familiar with.
It's really a lot of Enneagramcoaches which my coauthor on
this book is one of those shetalks about it.
It shows you what box you're inso you can climb out of it,
versus putting people in a box.
So it's not meant to like youknow, keep you in a space, but

(03:49):
that self-awareness then allowsyou to do something to change.
So, in the case of money, maybeyou change your habits or your
behaviors around money with thatawareness.
So, enneagram, there's ninetypes.
We're going to probably livethere versus like there's a
deeper dive into subtypes andcountertypes and all sorts of
cool stuff.
It's probably not for thisright now, but the nine types
show up very differently withmoney, which is why we wanted to

(04:10):
write this book.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
That is fantastic, really quickly before we move on
to.
For those who do want a deeperdive into understanding and
exploring their Enneagram type,do you have some recommended
resources or readings for thator sites?

Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, there's some that are free, like Truity has
one, and there's like the Enneaapp that people can download a
free version, and then there'slike $20 ones, like
Enneagraminstitutecom.
All of those have their prosand cons.
Something we know now is thatthe assessments aren't really
great for folks that arecountertypes, because they don't
really show up in any of theboxes.
So like if you have someonehere listening who's like oh my

(04:44):
gosh, I've taken all those and Ikeep getting the wrong or
different numbers, I would sayto an Enneagram interview and so
you're actually talking to anEnneagram coach.
They have a set number ofquestions they're going to ask
you about your life and it'sgoing to be really insightful.
So they say 60%, 66% accurateon the assessments.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
So if you do find yourself getting different
answers in different places, gotalk to an Enneagram coach.
I highly agree with you andrecommend that.
I mistyped for the first fewyears that I knew of Enneagram
Shock, surprise, awe, I was onEnneagram 9.
We tend to see all sides, wetend to merge with the different
types and so looking back I waslike, oh, that's why I typed as
a 1.
I was at agencies and that waswhat was required of me
oftentimes.
As a one, I was at agencies andthat was what was required of
me oftentimes.
Or three.
You know which nines can presentas three sometimes if we're
kind of in that growth phase,state or phase.

(05:34):
And then I also tested as aseven because I had four out of
five people on my team that weresevens at one point and it
wasn't until I worked with DennyTato she's a past podcast guest
as a Zit Enneagram coach andshe was like, oh God, you are
such a nine and her assessmentwas so amazing and thorough and
helpful and the things that itdoes to kind of open your eyes
to.
It's not about even strengthsand weaknesses, like you said
with some other assessments.
It's really helping youunderstand your deepest

(05:57):
motivations that actually wereinstilled in you from childhood
and then it really helps youunderstand like a lot of your
behavior.
So that leads so well into whatyou're doing.
Right, you know, financialtherapy is probably an
interesting and or a new conceptto some folks too.
So I would love to kind of, youknow, get some clarity for our
listeners on that as well as howdo you see that being different

(06:19):
from traditional financialplanning or traditional
counseling?
Like, help us kind ofunderstand that new concept
outside of Enneagrams even.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, so for the certified financial therapists,
there's about 120 of us in theUS right now, so it is very new
in the grand scheme of likepsychology is so much older,
financial planning is so mucholder, so financial therapy has
been around since 2008 by nameand like entity, and so those of
us who are coming in, half ofus are mental health
professionals.
So your question of like, okay,there's like the mental health

(06:48):
side of it, and then half arefinancial planners.
So you've got reallyinteresting intersection of the
two.
And all the financialtherapists are going to show up
differently based on ourbackground and our training and
what we want to do.
But the short definition offinancial therapy is helping
people have a healthyrelationship with their money,
and so that might be thoughts,feelings, behaviors,
transforming those from thatscarcity to abundance of people,

(07:09):
like that phrase, but for somany people it's shame, anxiety,
dread, avoidance.
So that's where I like to showup as a mental health now
financial therapist 15 years ofmental health, four and a half
years now in financial therapyfound it in the pandemic because
I was burning out again, butit's just so rewarding because

(07:31):
there's still a lot of like themental health aspect there.
So to your question of like,why not a financial advisor or
planner?
We tend to be alongside them,or this person might not have a
team of people that they'reworking with Financial advisor
for a piece of their goalfinancial therapy for the
emotions that are holding themback, blocking them from the
goal and so we don't replace anyof those folks.
We tend to be like,collaborative with them, like
supplemental to almost.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
That's really interesting and as you were
speaking there I was like oh,money avoidance Enneagram nine I
already see it, if anybodyknows anything about the types.
Yeah, it's almost easy.
So I think you know I am kindof curious, though, like what,

(08:12):
what sort of first inspired youto kind of explore that
connection of the Enneagram andhow it could help you understand
your money, insights and habits.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yeah, so, as a professional, I found it in 2012
, when I, like, finished myprogram and was going into some
trainings and was like, oh mygosh, they brought in a bunch of
people and did interviews ofbenign types and they told us
when you feel like you'regetting kicked in the gut,
that's probably your type.
If it's obvious, which I know,your story is different and I
felt that I felt nauseous, Ifelt like I wanted to hide.
It feels like it's showing yourshadow self or the side you

(08:36):
don't want people to know or see.
You kind of hide that down here, and so that was very telling.
And then I found it personallyin 2016, when I got married,
because that was something wewere doing together as a couple
to like make sure we were on theright path, and I came back
full circle.
Now I'm teaching at theuniversity level of like as an
elective let's talk about theEnneagram on therapy so just
couldn't learn about thisforever.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
I love it.
It makes so much sense Again,like that deeper understanding
of yourself and your behaviors,whatever you can do to gain
clarity on that.
It is really amazing to see,like, how it starts to apply in
all aspects of life.
But I was wondering if youcould sort of help us again
continue to paint the picturefor folks that all these
concepts are really new to.

(09:18):
Um, maybe talk us through how acouple of specific enneagram
types might approach moneydifferently.
Um, perhaps maybe contrastingtypes that tend to have
different financial mindsets,because this would be really
good, like you said, even like,in a way, couples therapy.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yes, yeah, so relevant as to why we like have
the conflict or clash happening.
So, with your permission, amy,I'm going to start with nines,
because that blending is so truewith money.
And so what happens with ourEnneagram type nines?
They're looking at the peoplearound them and saying, whatever
your goal is, I will go alongwith right.
So the core belief is I'll goalong to get along.
And that does show up in moneygoals.

(09:52):
So if we have a partner, ourspouse is like let's go on this
vacation, let's save this muchmoney, let's do this thing.
Nines, when they're in theirmore unhealthy side, might blend
so much that they don't evenknow what their goal is with
money.
So part of their growth edge,as I call it, is like what would
it be like to set your ownmoney goal?
What would it be like toachieve your own money goal?
Like that might be the ultimateresult that we're looking for

(10:13):
with the financial therapy.
Ask effective You're movingforward, you're doing something
on your own.
In contrast, I'll look at eights, which are right next to our
nines in this little circlewheel of enneagram.
For folks who don't know theimage, our eights are very much
about control.
So when it comes to money, theywant to control their money.
They want to invest it the waythey want to invest it.
They want to spend it the waythey want to spend it.
They don't necessarily like tohave people tell them what to do

(10:36):
with their money, so that couldbe again a partner or spouse or
a professional.
So they're not usually the onesseeking help from financial
entities or advisors, planners,whatnot.
If they're coming to financialtherapy, it's because they have
a lot of big emotions abouttheir money.
Eights are more likely to havefinancial gatekeeping, which is
a term I've come up with.
That's not financial abuse,which feels really serious, but

(10:58):
like the oh, I want to controlthis, so I will gatekeep how it
shows up in the family.
I'll make all the decisionsthey might partner with a nine
to be like you don't want to dothis.
You actually feel like moneycauses conflict, so blend with
me and I get my way and you'rehappy too.
So those two even just likealongside each other looks so
different with their money andhow they handle it.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
Just as two examples.
Absolutely, those are greatexamples.
And Tanya, one of our livelisteners, already has a
question.
I love it.
Tanya, thank you so much forjumping right in Before we get
too far away from this principleof Enneagram or anything like
that.
She's curious.
You know what helps you diveinto your clients versus a disc,
for example?
Or you mentioned Myers-Briggsas well, like you know, maybe

(11:40):
more around like why Enneagram?

Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, yeah.
So because it's relational.
I mean therapy is very muchabout a relationship.
There's the therapeuticrelationship, but also people
come in to work on theirrelationships.
So they might have like a testdrive in the therapeutic
relationship of I'm going to trythis communication style with
you as my therapist.
Does that work?
Did it blow up?
Hopefully it ever blows up.
But, like building thatself-confidence, then take it

(12:02):
back to a partner, spouse,family member, cowork-worker,
whoever um with the enneagram,because it's showing us the box
we're already in.
It's that self-discovery that Ithink is very aligned with
therapy.
So people are wanting that.
They really, truly want to knowwhy do I do what I do?
I know what I'm doing.
I might be drinking, I might bemaking risks, taking risks,
whatever it looks like I mightbe avoiding, but like the whole

(12:24):
phrase of telling us why we dowhat we do is like the
foundation of psychology.
So to me it was like an easyconnection Enneagram and therapy
makes a lot of sense.
I don't know if that's going toresonate with the person asking
.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
No, I would definitely add to that too,
being a big fan of Enneagram andhaving studied it.
You know, not extensively butlike, probably enough to be
dangerous is like really it'sabout understanding your deep
seated fears and motivations,which is why you don't always
recognize the behavior patternsright away, because you're just
responding from, like that habitof like internally, like how

(12:57):
you internalize things.
And I think knowing that aboutyourself, but then also
understanding and knowing yourpartner's Enneagram type, is so
helpful Because I think at theend of the day, day too, you
have to realize and recognize,like we're all humans and we,
but we all show up in the worldand process the world
differently and we see the worlddifferently.
And sometimes, when you cangain that clarity and
understanding this is such anine speaking right now right,
if I could just understandeverybody and see their

(13:19):
perspective, then it makes it somuch easier for me to have
those hard conversations thatsomebody like me want to avoid,
to say to, like you know myEnneagram seven partner, which
he's not a seven, you know, hey,I know you want to do all the
things and be everywhere always,and then you get massive FOMO
but, like, at the end of the day.
It's not helping us achieve ourmoney goals because we're

(13:41):
spending money on all theseexperiences versus saving.
And then, you know, maybe I'm asix and I want to like mitigate
risks.
So even just acknowledging, likethe difference between you two,
I think, is just such abreakthrough way and because
you're talking about, like yousaid earlier, your shadow self,
which is that kind of a deepseated motivation and fears.
Sometimes we see that as a badthing.

(14:01):
Don't get me wrong.
I love Myers-Briggs andstrength finders, but it is just
focusing on those positiveattributes and strengths.
It's not talking about thatshadow self.
But I think that to me is whatmakes Enneagram so unique.
It's less about not just howwe're showing up outwardly but
like what's going on inside, andI think that's for you for that

(14:21):
reason.
Those are the reasons why Ithink versus DIS disc or
Myers-Briggs, why I think italigns so much better.
Beautifully said, yeah, awesome.
And in your book you do exploresome past experiences that
shape relationship with money.
I actually heard a termrecently from somebody about
poverty trauma and I was likewhat?
That's a thing?
I'm kind of curious.

(14:42):
You know how would you definefinancial trauma?
Because, like I said, that wasa new term for me as of like two
months ago, and what are somecommon ways that it manifests in
your daily financial decisions?

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Oh yeah, financial trauma is really like showing up
in our community right now aslike the buzzword.
A couple of my financialtherapy colleagues are writing
books on the topic, so I'm goingto be excited to see what they
capture in their writing.
But financial trauma I'm goingto put on my therapist hat, my
mental health therapist hat, fora minute which is trauma is
whatever people say is traumatic, right.
So, like as professionals, wedon't look at our client and say

(15:16):
that was trauma or that wasn'ttrauma.
They tell us, and that's alsotrue of financial trauma.
So examples of financial traumamight be things like being
denied a loan because of thecolor of your skin, surviving
the Great Depression, goingthrough a recession, but it also
could be things like my parentsfought about money constantly.
So people think of these big Ttraumas is what we used to call
them in mental health and nowit's like big T.

(15:37):
Little t is like.
Any trauma based on what theclient tells us is traumatic.
So it could be fighting, itcould be collection calls, it
could be being evicted from yourhome, could be financial trauma
.
All of these things causedisruption and cause extreme
pain for a lot of folks whenthey go through them, and so,
although we're going to havepeople write books about
financial trauma, I think forlisteners it's like whatever you

(15:58):
feel in your body and in yourmind is traumatic could be an
example of financial trauma.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
And acknowledgement.
That's such a good point.
I appreciate that so much.
But you know, we talked amoment ago I'm gonna back up for
just a second we talked amoment ago about you know
partners and I kind of made itin the in the terms of like
relational, like you knowpartnerships versus business
partnerships.
Do you counsel and work withbusiness partnerships as well,
with this whole money mindsetkind of thing?

Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's value in that we talked
about like work-wife,work-husband business partner.
I've had people separate asbusiness partners and it felt
like a divorce is what they hadshared with me.

Speaker 1 (16:37):
Oh, my gosh yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
So like money comes into all of that.
We also have a lot ofnarratives or like money beliefs
that are negative, of likemoney is corrupt or money is bad
, especially women that I workwith, and so even thinking about
that divorce as a businesspartner, it brings up some stuff
of like money changes us moneymakes us angry with each other.
Now we're scrabbling over moneyor whatever comes up right.
There's some trauma there too.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
Absolutely, I can see how it would really apply well
to business partners.
Yeah, Because if you have verydifferent mindsets about money,
like that, is that's whatbusinesses come down to, right,
Is that your bottom line, is howyou exist, and so, yeah, I
could see how that woulddefinitely come into play.
And you know, being able tofind somebody, a financial
counselor for you as a businesswith a business partner, is not
a bad idea.
You also mentioned in some ofyour books and writings about

(17:23):
money, scripts in your in a lotof your work.
I'm curious if you couldexplain what these are and how
you know some of our listenersmight be able to um, how they
might be limiting someonewithout even realizing it.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, such loaded questions here, amy, I'm like
I'm pulling them apart.
Um, so, money scripts are thebehaviors with money.
So when you were asking aboutfinancial trauma, how does it
show up in everyday life?
It could be this like avoidancebehavior we were talking about
a moment ago.
Um, it could be like anxiety inthe sense of I'm not opening
the bills, I'm not checking thebank account, I'm shutting down
physically and emotionally whenmy partner tries to talk to me

(17:58):
about money.
I might be holding resentmentwhen someone says let's split
the check for dinner, right.
So there's lots of like littlebehaviors that might be,
attributed to financial trauma,but also to the topic at hand.
So let's see where do I want tostart with this.
Break it down for me a littlebit more where you want me to
start.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah, so describe what money scripts are, cause
you kind of explained, like thetriggers and the kind of so
maybe some of the behaviors.
What is, what is this moneyscript?
And then, yeah, we'll startthere, start there, got it.
Thank you, I was like my brainis exploding.
I know right.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
I feel you.
Yeah.
So money scripts that term iscoined by Dr Brad Klontz, so
those are his scripts, the firstfour, and by definition I find
them pathologizingizing.
So I want listeners to knowthat because even though two of
the four sound a little bitbetter quote unquote they're not
really something we want toaspire to, like show up in all
the time.
So money avoidance is one ofthe four scripts which has that

(18:54):
behavior of like we talked aboutnot opening mail, not checking
accounts, like kind of theostrich and head in the sand
kind of feeling.
The core belief of that personis we don't talk about money.
So if you have a money belieffrom family or friends that
reinforces that that's now superloud in your life.
So probably right away.
Money avoidance is not likehooray, sign me up for that

(19:14):
script.
It doesn't serve us in ahealthy way and it could
snowball into something prettysignificant with debt.
The second script would bemoney worship, which by
definition is more money wouldmake me happier.
That's a belief this personmight hold.
So Dr Klontz has a whole quizfor the four scripts.
But even just hearing thesecore beliefs maybe some of our
listeners are like, oh, that'shitting home.

(19:36):
So this person might havefixated when we had that study I
think it was Stanford that said75,000 a year makes you happy.
And now it's gone up and up andup right, because this was like
years ago.
And so this person,behaviorally, will pursue new
jobs, new opportunities, newpromotions.
They're most likely to haveworkaholism show up as part of
it, which is a three.

(19:56):
I feel that really hard.
I agree I'm type three, butthey also are generous with
their money.
So it's not just one way Likethey're moving the goalposts.
Maybe I want this much inretirement Okay, now I want to
double that, I want to triplethat.
But they're also like let's goout to dinner, let's spend money
on the family and friends,let's have experiences.
So it's not the holding of themoney, that's a different script

(20:18):
.
Third script is money status.
We tend to see that one withlike kind of the young adult
population, but also based onlike maybe I come from poverty
and so the first time I'm makinggood money for myself, I want
to show that to other people.
So their core belief is I makegood money, I want to show it.
So that might be designerlabels, nice car, nice house,
keeping up with the Joneses,kind of thing.

(20:38):
The exception would be someonewho has, like, a physical
disability.
They might be like I want toshow up in my nice clothes.
That's the first thing someonenotices before they notice my
disability.
So that's the exception to thatone.
And last but not least, is moneyvigilance, which I always
lovingly say the financialprofessionals.
This is where they live, thisis like them.
They're like I'm holding mymoney, I'm really good at saving

(20:58):
money, I'm going to teach youhow to save money.
And so a lot of our financialadvisors and planners show up in
money vigilance In its worstform.
It's like Scrooge McDuck orlike Scrooge from Christmas
Carol, like counting his coinsand being mad anytime he has to
spend them.
So hoarding of money would be abehavior for them.
The core belief is we don'tspend money, we save it.
So that's something forlisteners to land in.

(21:20):
So before negative scripts inmy book, I was like cool, that's
like where we start.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
But where are we going to go?
Yeah, give me some hope here.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
My parents are like I don't think I like any of those
.
Now, my own personal light bulbis when I learned about the
scripts.
I looked at my parents and Iwas like, oh, this explains so
much why I'm a serialentrepreneur, workaholic,
perfectionist, because there'sthat in that.
But the positive, or what Icall healthy scripts that I want
people to know about, I callmoney optimism, money harmony
and money plentiful, and thoseare the three that people are

(21:52):
starting to move towards infinancial therapy like that
balance of okay money is notcontrolling me.
I'm in control of my money forexample.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
I love it.
That's great.
I love frameworks and I lovebeing able to kind of see.
I'm kind of curious like whatif you have people?
What if you yourself identifywith more than one script?

Speaker 2 (22:11):
Yeah, I get that question a lot actually, and
because we have parents and wehave people who we might've been
raised by, or a culture orsociety that models that for us,
it's very possible that you'lltype into two of them as your
top two and then it will kind offluctuate based on your health
and stress response which, loand behold, that's how the
Enneagram is built In health youlook one way and stress you
look another, and so some peoplewill be like, oh, here are my

(22:34):
top two, or I'm kind oflandsliding between the two, or
pendulum swings, and same withthe healthy script versus the
unhealthy script.
So, even as someone goestowards money harmony, which is
like this flow, money comes,money goes, they can still
landslide back or backslide intomoney vigilance when a life
event happens, ie stock marketstuff changing.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
That can make us go right back to an old pattern.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
That makes a lot of sense, evenjust kind of, in thinking like
cognitive behavioral therapy.
Even so, just even being awareof, like, what your money script
is, which is essentially whatsounds like your money mindset,
like, what are those limitingbeliefs that you have about
money, if you can identify those, hopefully you can recognize
them so that you can begin tomove into the more positive
scripts but then acknowledge,yeah, we can begin to move into
the more positive scripts, butthen acknowledge, yeah, we're

(23:18):
going to default back sometimeand you're going to just regress
because, life right, we have alot of.
You know, I mentioned earlierabout Together Digital.
We're a big network of womenwho work in digital marketing
and creative fields where, youknow, discussing compensation
can be a little bit challenging,especially for our freelancers,
contractors, those who providetheir own marketing services,

(23:38):
specifically at least what I seea lot of being talked about in
our chat those who are lookingfor jobs.
There's some pay transparencyhappening, thank goodness, but
also who knows how long that'sgoing to stick around.
But, all that aside, what aresome strategies that you would
recommend for professionals whostruggle with um sort of
learning how to like ask forwhat they're worth, because it's

(24:01):
such a challenge for you know,I'm going to say men and women
even.
Are women and men even?

Speaker 2 (24:08):
yeah, yeah.
So I think the first thing totalk about is there's this term
that hits people in the gut,which is noble poverty.
Noble poverty, and and women,compared to men, are more likely
to suffer from noble poverty.
So when we wrote about it, wehad this bullet point list If
you're a woman, if you're anEnneagram 2, if you work in
nonprofits, if you're atherapist, a teacher and bam,

(24:29):
bam bam.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
All the roles that women play and do.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
But my favorite bullet point from this was if
you grew up with Disney movies,you might be more apt to noble
poverty.
You want to tell me why, Amy?
What's coming to mind?

Speaker 1 (24:39):
Cinderella.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
That was right away.
So like the people who havepower, who have the money, might
be conveyed as evil or corruptin Disney right.
So like we had this messageagain and again that was like,
oh, money can't be trusted,money is bad.
So, based on some of thosemessages, noble poverty is, by
definition, putting yourself infinancial distress to serve
others.
So women are more likely to dothat as caregivers Any where I'm

(25:05):
choose as helpers are morelikely to do that.
Nonprofits this is them to a T.
And so to your question.
I think even just likerecognizing noble poverty and
having language for that is partof the healing to say can I
actually advocate for what I'mworth?
Can I start to put a number tothat Now?
That being said, as a serialentrepreneur, I've also had to
make peace that I can't alwaysget paid what I'm worth, and so

(25:25):
sometimes it's that cognitivereframe you mentioned earlier,
like can I build other incomestreams?
Do I have a side hustle?
Is that even appropriate?
But when you work for someoneelse, maybe it's just even
rehearsing.
How do I ask for this?
There's a public speaker.
She talks about 20 seconds of,like immense bravery.
I think was the phrase 20seconds of immense bravery.

(25:46):
So when you say my rate is, yousay nothing after.
And women don't do this reallywell.
I am also guilty of it whereI'm like oh, but here's my
sliding scale rate, here's mypro bono, here's my.
Well, let's talk about it Ifthat's too much.
Take a damn pause.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
It is so hard, just say it and then just sit back
and wait.
It's such a good tip though,that's such good advice.
And then I would say, really,just talking about money, the
more you can get used to doingit.
That's right, you know.
I think that's why I mentionedpay transparency.
It's such an important thing tokind of get us out of that.
Also, being asked what you madein the past with a certain job
I coach women I'm like don't,they cannot ask you that what

(26:21):
your salary is is not determinedon your last position and last
role.
It is on the existing role andopportunity.
Don't fall into that.
And I can't believe that tothis day, women are still being
asked that and answering that.
And it's so funny he neverlistens anyway, that's fine.
I was just saying the other dayI was like I mentioned you all
the time on the podcast.
My husband and I am like he'snever gone through like
enneagram coaching, but I amlike always been torn as to

(26:42):
whether he's more of a five anda four two, and I know you're
not supposed to type people, butI'm like watching the behaviors
in that noble poverty.
He was a professor for 13 yearsand you know it just in
announcing his behaviors, evenin the new workplace, like he is
such a two, he's such a helper,and so now that I'm learning

(27:07):
that it's more of like how doyou have the healthy boundaries
that you need to be having inthe workplace to make sure that
you're not sacrificing yourself,your sanity, your time?
But it was really hard for himto, even though he was getting
paid nothing.
I think it was finally thething recognizing that noble
poverty kind of mindset thathelped him, because he had been
contracting for a startup andthe startup had been begging him
to come and work for them, andit wasn't the salary that they
were potentially offering him,it was that he was going to pick
up a pizza after work one dayto bring home for us and notice

(27:31):
that a manager at Domino's gotpaid 20 or $40,000 a year more
than he did.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Ooh, that's a reality check, whoa.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
You know, and so it is one of those things like I'm
going to read up on that onemore.
That's such a great term andit's such a you're right.
It does.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
It does a little bit of a punch in the gut, Cause
it's like you recognize andrealize that and it's like, yeah
, I mindset and those that doyou know, and there's got to be
a balance, you know?
Yeah, well, in academia, let'sjust call them out and throw
some shade like they willabsolutely reinforce noble
poverty just like graduateschool for master's level.
Therapists reinforce noblepoverty of you.
Can't be a good helper and makegood money like one or the

(28:09):
other.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
It's like why not both exactly.
Oh my gosh, if we could justget paid for what we do to help
people, we'd be yeah, no problem.
And then we would take thatmoney and we would just go help
more people.
That's like it's crazy.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, there's a whole lot wecould unpack there, even.
All right, let's get movingthrough the questions, though.
Let's see.
Oh, as a serial entrepreneuryourself you mentioned that

(28:31):
earlier how has yourunderstanding of financial
psychology influenced your ownbusiness decisions, and what was
a particular moment when yourprofessional knowledge
transformed your personalrelationship with money?
I'd love to hear a little bitmore about your own personal
stories.

Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, so when I found financial therapy in the
pandemic, I interviewed acolleague and then within 24
hours I pitched to her to workunder her and mentor and learn
this craft for lack of a betterword.
And when I learned those moneyscripts, like I said, like I was
calling my sister in tears likeoh, this is why we're both
serial entrepreneur workaholics,like look at mom, look at dad,
look at what they model, look atour grandparents.
So some folks do like what wecall a money genogram, and it's
just so powerful to like look atthe jobs people have, the

(29:13):
behaviors they have with money,the beliefs with money.
The average human has 50 to 200money beliefs.
So this is like effort initself to like just see them and
kind of like call them out asthey come up.
So my own journey when I learnedthe four scripts, as already
named, I was like, okay, and nowwhat?
Like I have money vigilance andI have money focus, cool, like

(29:33):
those are the two that areprobably ones people would
aspire to have, versus avoidanceand status, how I define them.
But I was like now what?
And so when I was doing thiswork with my clients and also
still doing my own work.
I was like, huh, money harmony,like I kept telling clients
this is like a tide money comesin, money goes out, and for some
that caused a lot of stress.
But this image like reallyanchored me down.

(29:54):
And then to like put language toit in a book and in the
workshops I do, and things likethat, I was like, oh, so for me,
it was one day I was like, oh,I'm doing it, I'm in money
harmony, like I saw likeevidence that I was like letting
it come and go and not havingthe anxiety that was there
before and that felt really good.
And I was like, how do I keepdoing this, cause I'll still
backslide into vigilance, causewe all do.

(30:15):
But I'll still backslide intovigilance because we all do.
But when I really noticed thatI was actually in it, I was like
, okay, this is not just prettywords, it can happen.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Right, I love it.
It's always good to hearpeople's personal experience and
journey because, one, it'srelatable and, two, it just
makes you realize that it's notjust you going through it.
Right, you're not alone in allof this and you know you
mentioned earlier, likefluctuations within the stock
market, we have a lot of membersthat are being impacted by
everything from changes andshifts in nonprofit dollars to

(30:45):
tariffs and things like that.
So, obviously, living in somepretty uncertain economic times,
what advice would you give orhave for those who are kind of
managing that financial anxietydue to just periods of
transition, instability,whatever you want to call it?

Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, so many thoughts.
I think one is like they'rehearing from everyone, whether
they're a financial plannerversus financial therapist is
steady, stay steady.
The urge is to panic and topull and to move things and
they're like stay steady.
We've gone through this kind ofuncertainty before.
So from that anxiety notletting it drive which might
then mean what's your healthydistraction Like?

(31:22):
Are you taking a walk, pettingyour dog, playing music, dancing
around your house, doing aprimal scream, whatever you like
like what's going to take thatoff of you so that it's not
festering?
Always kind of in motion?
I don't like to sit still andso I wouldn't tell anyone here
to sit still.
So like what is the healthymovement that makes you feel
like you're in control in yourbody?

(31:42):
That's probably where I'd havepeople start is like healthy
distraction.
What could you do instead ofyou know, constantly scrolling
through the news?

Speaker 1 (31:49):
or do all the things Right?
Yeah, Because, again, like itis so hard.
I remember I was sitting in thecar one day with my, with my
husband, and we were on our wayto dinner with my in-laws and
I'd had a particularly stressfulday at work and I was just
pissed at everybody andeverything.
And this was years and yearsand years ago.
And he's like Amy, and hedoesn't normally like cut me off

(32:09):
, but he's like Amy, you cannotworry about the things that you
can't control.
And I just wanted to like back.
What are you talking?

Speaker 2 (32:16):
about.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
You can't tell me that it took me like another
year or two before it wasfinally like, of course yeah, of
course he was right and againgoing through like therapy,
cognitive behavioral therapyit's like what is the locus of
control?
You know what can?
How can I take this energy?
So, like when you start to feelthat, like you said I love how
you're talking about feeling inyour body, cause it's so
important that the combined bodyconnection is so real it's not
woo at all, but it really, onceyou start to know what anxiety

(32:39):
feels like in your body, itgives you that momentary to
pause, that momentary option topause and be like, okay, well,
what can I can control, and I amdefinitely with you Like
finding a healthy distraction isthe best thing that you could
possibly do.
And really looking at, likegoing back to those basic needs.
So when you look at thatMaslow's hierarchy of needs,
like yeah, we aren't inself-actualization right now, we

(33:01):
are in, like when it comes tomoney, it feels it is, it's,
it's life for a lot of us.
Right, we need to pay our bills, we have to have water,
electricity, all these things,and so that can get really
stressful.
So it's like how can I justtake care of my most basic needs
.
You know what's at the verybottom of that pyramid.
Then I can start to take careof and you know
self-actualization and hopefullyall the other good stuff will

(33:22):
come later.
But you can't do that withoutstarting at that base layer.
That's right.
So I love that advice.
Thank you for that.
For someone who is maybe justkind of this is all new to them.
What is maybe one practicalstep that they could start with
today to gain more awarenessabout their financial mindset?

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yeah, I mean knowing that your audience is a lot of
women.
I think there's this practiceof even having a money meeting,
so even for listeners, justhearing me say money meeting,
there might be this like oh no.
I don't want to have a moneymeeting, especially because we
associate money meetings withlike mandatory, painful, shame
inducing.
Maybe we think taxes because weassociate money meetings with
like mandatory, painful,shame-inducing.

(34:03):
Maybe we think taxes becausewe're right at that kind of
season right now, Accounting,whatever it may be.
But when I say money meeting, Iwant people to have a chance to
recondition their body fromthat avoidance response to like
neutral.
I'm not looking for hearts andflowers.
Money is awesome.
That would be a big jump forpeople who are in avoidance as a

(34:23):
script.
But like, where can theyincorporate their five senses?
Can they have like fuzzyslippers on?
Can they drink some warm tea?
Can they have music on?
Like what can make a moneymeeting feel more tolerable?
And when I say money meeting, itmight be like a five minute
meeting, Like can you open thatpiece of mail you've been
avoiding?
Can you check your bank account?
Can you confirm what you wantto spend at the grocery store
with your spouse?
So for a lot of these folks,not just women, all people we're
trying to just recondition thebody to say this is safe, this

(34:45):
is neutral, this is not fight orflight, which is where we are
with avoidance.
So make it less painful, You'remore likely to do it, which
then creates the better habit oflike.
Okay, now I need to talk aboutthe vacation or the raise or
whatever's going on, but startsmall five minutes, all five
senses make it tolerable.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
I love it.
Exposure therapy.
I do, I know the things.
Yep, yep, yep.
We're talking the same languagehere.
That's such great advice.
And then, as far as like thosemoney meetings, like, do you
have any other advice on ways toapproach that with like
partners, whether it's businesspartner or life partner?

Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yeah, I mean the money meeting.
Then you might have it becollaborative of, like what's
going to make this moretolerable for both of us?
So I always talk about, likeyou schedule it or it doesn't
happen.
So it's not just like, oh,let's do it at the end of the
day, please don't do that.
Like you're both tired, you'reboth probably hungry, like this
is not the time for a moneymeeting or a money date, as one
of our grandmothers, thefinancial therapy, would say a
money date.
So maybe it's like, oh, are wedoing this at a coffee shop,

(35:45):
cause that feels like neutralground.
Are we doing this at the diningroom table?
If we have a dining room table,are we outside?
Are we sitting in the car?
Like what feels appropriate.
Never in the years I've donethis has someone been like I'm
going to do this in my bedroom.
Like please don't do that Lotsof intimacy issues with that
business partner also feels likewow, wow, boundary violation

(36:06):
there, um, but like this, likemutual collaboration, like how
do we make this tolerable habitbracketed so it's not like a
forever meeting.
It might be we're doing thisfor an hour and whatever we
accomplish in the hour feelsgood and then we can always
schedule another one.
But if I'm like marathoning itfor four hours with my business
partner now, we both feel tappedout and depleted and it's not
great.
So like I think even just likeexpectation, what's on the

(36:27):
agenda?
Make it tolerable with fivesenses and like have an end and
a start and an end time so itfeels doable.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, I love that.
That's great advice.
As somebody who probably fallsinto the avoider category, a lot
I will say for those of you whodo relate as well, I do feel
like you know, one, being awareis always helpful, as we said
earlier, but two, like kind ofmicrodosing with it, like you
said, is such exposure therapy,as we said earlier too.
It's such a great way toapproach it and what I have
found if this helps any of youthat are listening is that, you

(36:56):
know, as I continue to do it, Iactually find that, like my, I
am holding less tension in mybody when I actually do know the
numbers you know, because it'slike oh, like I don't have to
worry because I know things arefine.

(37:17):
Know and, like you said, thatmoney harmony, money comes,
money goes, is also like anotherthing.
That kind of mindset is alsobeen really, really nice.
Um, because I definitely havelike a scarcity mindset.
My family grew up with not alot of money, yeah, you know,
and every penny was counted andsavings were always a thing, but
money was also never talkedabout.
So I kind of got all fourscripts I have to go through,
but that's why I was like itfeels like I kind of could fall
into all of these camps again.

(37:38):
Enneagram nine I relate to themall.
But anyhow, I will say forthose of you who are avoiders
it's, it's, it's everything'sscary the first time you know,
and then after a while you kindof just become at second nature,
and then now I actually getmore nervous.
If I don't know, I'm like, butwait, I don't know what's

(38:02):
happening right now, I don'tknow what's going on, and so my
mind can make up anything,whereas if I just take that time
and be brave and kind of openup that envelope, I'm going to
find, like you know, it can besolved.
If it's, even if it's somethingbad, it can be solved.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
Well, and for those avoiders who are like this,
still like even just talkingabout the possibility of it is
activating.
Sometimes we go back to likewhat's the incentive then, like
what do you get to do that's funor pleasurable, after you do
the hard thing?
So it's like go get yourfavorite coffee, eat the food
you like, see a friend.
Like, for so many peoplethey'll be like yeah, kara, this
is like realistically, like I'mnot going to do that if I don't
have like a reward, I'm likeall right, find a reward, like

(38:33):
go back.
Wow, I don't care, likewhatever it is Like, but, like
you said, like just gettingstarted, like getting that
momentum is what I think peopleare trying to find.
Yeah, yeah, get that gold star.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
I love that, especially if you are a three or
achiever type and, yeah,sometimes having that positive
feedback is just so, it's justso nice.
But to me, like I said, theknowing is almost better than
the not knowing, and that's beenone kind of big aha for me.
I would say Live listeners,we've got a couple more
questions left for Kara, but wewould love it if you guys, if
you have any other questions,don't be shy, especially if you

(39:03):
have like a specific Enneagramtype that you want us to touch
on.
While we have Kara here, I wantto make sure that all of you
feel seen and heard.
That's why we have you here, tomake sure that our listening
audience gets the most out ofeach of our guests.
Kara, guests, tara, before wemove into the power round, I
wanted to ask you, looking ahead, how do you see the field of
financial therapy evolving andwhat excites you the most about

(39:24):
the future of helping peoplewith their relationships of
money.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah, I mean I'm hopeful that the words financial
therapy will become likehousehold known because, like
some people are still like whatis that?
I've never heard that before,so I would like for it to be
more commonplace, for people arelike, yep, I know what it is, I
know who those people are, Iknow what the purpose of
financial therapy is.
Just the word therapy and thename.
I would hope people are likeokay, this is like more of the
feelings based work, the traumabased work, because it's

(39:48):
therapeutic in nature.
I'm excited to see more peoplecoming into the field.
Like I said, there's 120 of uscertified.
There's about 400 people doingthe work and then seeing that
grow would be great.
Here in Colorado there's likesix of us.
So, like I actually feel likewe're not saturated by any means
, but like we look like theoutlier compared to like one
person in another state.
So I'd love to see a financialtherapist in every single state

(40:09):
for folks that want thein-person support versus
telehealth.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Yeah, I was going to say thatis.
That would be my next follow-upquestion is, like you know, I
put the links to your books andthen I will drop your website.
Let's see all your projects andsay we can include your website
in the notes.
But if somebody is looking forI'm going to throw this question
in because we've got a littletime and I don't see any

(40:35):
questions in the chat yet.
But, um, if somebody is lookingfor cause, like you know, I've
been through the process too of,like, looking for a therapist,
and it's not an easy thing,right, Cause you have to find
the right fit.
It's not just like you findsomebody and you go with them.
What are some things that folksare interested in exploring?
This one, how do they connectwith you?
Um, and two, if they'reconsidering a financial
therapist, what should they belooking for?

(40:57):
What kinds of questions shouldthey be asking?

Speaker 2 (40:59):
Yeah.
So right now I'm purposelyworking with therapists, because
70% of my industry is avoidant,like 70%.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
So I got lots of work to do I love it.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
I love working with that population.
The Financial TherapyAssociation is who certifies all
of us and they have a directory.
So folks are like, where arethe financial therapists?
What are their specialties?
Who do they serve?
I've got colleagues who serveentrepreneurs and small business
owners.
I have folks who look at ADHDand money, which I think is
fabulous.
I've got folks who are workingwith couples.
So there's lots of options inthat directory of Financial

(41:32):
Therapy Association.
But when it comes to findingbest fit, ask questions.
You are there for the work.
Like maybe even ask about, like, what's it look like to work
with financial trauma?
What do they do to help withsafety?
Are they mental health trainedor are they financial planner
side?
Because I think that shows updifferently of, like the person
who's going to work with you,what would they do if it felt

(41:53):
like you were dysregulated andgoing into a crisis mode?
Like I think there's somequestions the client should ask
of like, how are you going tokeep me safe?
What's your approach?
What's your training?
Because I think that's natural.
Like, interview your therapist.
We all are okay with that.
Like, if they're not okay withthat, that's a red flag.
Like, please tell, ask me howmany years I've been in the
field?
Am I licensed or not?
Like whatever would be helpful,but ask questions like whatever

(42:19):
feels good to you to be like.
This is going to help me makean informed choice.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
Please ask it, yeah, and don't be shy about it.
Like you know, if you land withsomebody and they're not ideal,
it's just going to show youwhat you don't want, you know,
and that's going to give youmore clarity for when you go to
look again.
I'm kind of a fan of, likedoctors and mental health,
physical health, whatever it is.
I'm like you know whatSometimes it works out.
Sometimes you got to fire, youknow if it's not right, if it's
not a good fit.
Like you, you need to find theright fit for you if you're

(42:41):
going to find NC Progress.
All right, julian was asking ifwe could kind of do a quick
repeat on the recommendationsfor Enneagram tests.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah, so Truity is one that's free.
Enneagraminstitutecom has a $20one.
There's a place called Enneaapp it's E-N-N-E-A-P-P.
My colleague created that as anEnneagram coach.
So there's a free version ofthat one and that one's just
going to narrow you down to likeyour top three types.
It's not going to say you're aone or you're a five.
It's not that specific.

(43:09):
And then there's like I don'tknow, there's probably dozens of
them.
There's so many in my head,yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
I know I was gonna say I dropped the one for Trudy
in there and then the EnneagramInstitute site, so you can check
that out as well as likedownload their app if you're
interested.
And I mean I will say that likefrom what I've heard from most
of my folks, connections,friends that are in the
Enneagram space, it's like youdon't I mean Enneagram types or
Enneagram coaches will be themost likely to help you get
typed, but nobody should typeanybody, right?

(43:39):
That's kind of like the rulebecause you have to do a little
bit of time and reflection,reading, discovery, like kind of
it's.
For me it was like really goodto learn about all the types.
And then, as I again workedwith the Enneagram coach, then
she brought me the clarity Cause.
Then I was like I'm everywhere,I'm everyone.
No, no, you are just seriouslya nine.

(43:59):
So, yeah, those are great, Ilove that.
So I dropped those links inthere as well.
I also dropped the link andwe'll again include those in the
show notes for our listenerswho aren't live with us right
now the Financial TherapyAssociation.
So you guys can check out thatdirectory.
Obviously, you can also reachout to Kara.
I'll talk to her, but I lovethat therapists are referring
you.
That's fantastic.
We have a couple more questionsand we've got time, so we're

(44:20):
going to hit on these.
Elizabeth is curious about yourtake on four, wing three.
We've got an Enneagram.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
As I say, like people , I want more Enneagram typing.
Let's talk about them, the fourwing three.
So, by definition, fours arethe individualist.
For people who don't know thetype four.
So fours are very creative.
They tend to be people whodon't want surface level
conversation.
They hate small talk, they wantto go deep.
So a lot of therapists arefours because they're like let's

(44:44):
talk about your trauma, let'slook under the carpet and rah,
let's go into it Deep dive.
So a four wing three means thatyou're leaning towards that
achiever side, which means as afour, you're probably pretty
productive and very motivated tolike achieve success, whatever
that looks like personally andprofessionally for you.
Threes want to be seen assuccessful, whereas fours want
to be seen as unique, so thosecombined together could lead to

(45:05):
like some really coolentrepreneurial projects, in my
opinion.
Um, when it comes to money, you,our fours, are kind of a hot
cult, which is no surprisebecause we've got like the
self-prez four, which is anxious, versus like the social four,
which is kind of out there withthe herd.
So when it comes to money, we'vehad some fours, when we
interviewed them for this bookthat said I love money, I see it

(45:26):
as opportunity, and so they hadthese like healthy beliefs with
money, but on the flip side, wehad people who thought it was
corrupt and evil and likepatriarchy and capitalism and
all sorts of things.
So, on a personal spendinglevel, what was most interesting
was people will invest inthings that are unique and
special and handmade andthoughtful as fours, and so that

(45:46):
might also then translate tolike success of like.
I'm looking at this uniquepiece of jewelry that I've had
custom made, or look at thispiece of art that brings me a
lot of joy and also showssuccess and wealth in some way.
So those are some initialthoughts coming up for this
listener who asked this question.
But yeah, fours were like hot,cold versus some of our other
types were like so easy topinpoint, yeah, I could

(46:08):
definitely see that.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
I could definitely see that because, again, like
you said, that very highlyindividualized, individualistic
mindset which honestly is kindof complimentary too If you
think about it.
If you're like ah boo,capitalism, then you don't buy a
mass produced stuff, you buylike that individual kind of.
I can see how it kind of meshes.
Um, again such a nine, um,lydia, would love to hear from

(46:29):
you some strategies for a typetwo and scarcity mindset.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
Oh yes, our twos.
I love our twos.
Twos come into my therapy astherapists very often.
Fours, twos and nines are verycommon in the therapy space no
surprise to any of you who'vedone therapy.
So let's see For twos, thehelper, the biggest growth edge
for you is setting some goalsfor yourself so much of nine,
but not spending money on otherpeople, right.

(46:56):
So from that need to be neededplace that I want to be helpful
place, twos tend to strugglewith holding on to their money,
so they might be a gift topeople, donating it, giving it
to causes, giving it to familymembers who ask for money if you
have money.
So some financial boundariesare important for a two.
From that helpful place, again,noble poverty is a thing for

(47:16):
twos, so being aware of that andcreating some boundaries there
would be helpful.
But I think the strength of atwo when it comes to money is
they are thinking of others, solike they will be the one to
like, rally behind a cause andsupport that.
So not all of the things I talkabout are negative, but I think
most people are looking for,like, what's my growth edge?
To improve and transform.
So I just want to name that outloud for listeners.

(47:36):
I'm like, yeah, I'm going totell you all the things that no
one wants to talk about, but youalso all have strengths as your
type.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
Yes exactly there's positives.
It's so interesting too.
Yeah, he's leaning more andmore to all the time.
My husband it's funny like theway that shows up in his money
mindset is that you know, I willbe like yo, I want to buy these
really nice pair of shoes and Iknow our budget right now.
So he's like no, spend it, it'sfine, do it.
Like he never hesitates toencourage me to spend or to

(48:03):
spend on me.
However, for himself, we went toget some bubble tea the other
day and he was so mad because hedid.
He.
It was a different place thanhe normally goes, but he got
what he normally gets and it wasjust different.
And he's like I just spent $7on this bubble tea and I didn't
even drink it and I'm like whyare you beating yourself up?
I said what would you tell meif it was me that had spent $7
on something that I didn't like,after all, you know?

(48:31):
So I think also thinking aboutthat and, like you know, he does
kind of financially like rewardhimself for all the hard work
that he does by kind of allowinghimself to spend $7 on a bubble
tea.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
But they didn't make it so yeah, it's a beautiful
example of what we call in thebook small spend Joyce, which is
what I think twos are needing,much to what you just shared.
So I know the question was likescarcity.
Well, scarcity looks like lotsof things, like scheduling
clients on your off hours,putting people wherever they fit
, not having a lunch, like.
There's lots of signs ofscarcity, especially if you work
for yourself versus work for anemployer.

(49:05):
But the small spend joys mightbalance that out a little bit.
So small spend joy, if we wereto define it, is like something
that brings joy that doesn'tbreak the bank.
So that might be Lego, thatmight be coffee, that might be
bubble tea, that might be a pairof shoes, depending on, again,
what your income level is andwhat feels good to you.
So, regardless, what's anchoredin for financial therapy is
values based spending.

(49:26):
So I'm not going to tell you tospend money on something that's
not important to you.
So, like I think, even for twos, to get clear on what is
important to me as a human, notinfluenced by the people I'm
helping, but like what do Iactually enjoy?
And then, all in, can I have asmall spend joy, like once a
month.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
so I'm not depriving myself of something that feels
good.
I love it.
That's.
I think that's such animportant thing to kind of be
aware of.
I think, whatever type you are,there's probably a lot of that,
especially if we are, you know,parents, caretakers it's
everybody before ourselves andyou know not that, again,
self-care has to be somethingyou're spending money on or an
abundance of money on.
But, yeah, just taking yourselfout for a nice coffee and
bringing a book along to justlike chill and relax, like it's

(50:05):
just such a big big way in sucha small way to take care of
yourself and show up foryourself.
So it doesn't have to beanything extravagant, but it it
really starts to add up.
And I think that was aninteresting thing too, because I
kind of started to get intolike this whole like emotions
and money with another webinarguest a while, a few years back
in the middle of the pandemic,and she said you know, I don't

(50:27):
spend a lot of my time actuallybudgeting for people.
I actually help them understandwhere do they find joy, value
and purpose and where they'respending their money, not how
much they're spending.
And then what's wild is thatonce they kind of align, you
know, they start to realize, oh,I'm actually spending a lot of
money on certain transactionalthings that actually it's kind

(50:47):
of like this, marie Kondo, oflike your budget right, you're
looking at all these things andyou're like I'm spending money
on this every month, every week,what have you, and it's not
really bringing any value or joyor emotional reward to me.
But if I was to shift the wayI'm spending my money, they
actually somehow end up spendingless because they realize like
again, I was going to mentionhedonic adaptation before,

(51:07):
earlier too, when you weretalking about what was the other
.
It was one of the, it was oneof the scripts.
I think it was one of the thescripts.
I think it was like the moneystatus, money status and it's
just like head out of head outlike adaptation.
If you're not familiar, friendsis really that notion of you
know, once you achieve a certainamount, you kind of reach this
level of like excitement andthere's like that little initial

(51:29):
dopamine hit, but it's notserotonin.
Serotonin is much longerlasting and actually through
more experiences versuspurchases, but it's like that
little bit of high that you getright when you bought those
shoes and now they're in the bagand they smell like all nice
and new and you're gonna takethem home and you're gonna wear
them, but then by like that,literally that little bit of
high lasts a day, you know.

(51:49):
And then and then all of asudden you see another pair of
shoes and you're like, oh, like,those are way cooler.
I like those even more, likeit's like this whole thing of
like there's just not enough.
There's some really cool storiesand research around it too,
with, like people who've won thelottery, how their lives have
completely been upheaved andupturned.
Do you think that that moneythat they won would bring
tremendous happiness and purposeand value to their lives?

(52:11):
And it doesn't.
It actually upends it andcompletely change their entire
life not for the better,necessarily.
So understanding hedonicadaptation and our kind of
innate human desire to alwayswant a little bit more it's why
you see people who are superwealthy.
It's like, is there ever enoughmoney for you?

Speaker 2 (52:27):
Yeah, like what is enough.
If you want to putentrepreneurs into a panic space
, ask them what is enough and weall start to hyperventilate.
But yeah, like small spend joys.
I love that Marie Kondo kind ofconnection to it because, like,
once people get clear on what'sactually important to them, not
what society says is importantthen we start to like shed the
things that are society of likethe FOMO oh, I have to have a

(52:48):
nice car.
Like what if I don't care aboutmy car?
I want it to work and get me topoint A, to point B, but I want
to spend my money on a vacation.
So, even in couples I'm not acouples financial therapist, but
I work closely with some andthey're like, what's the shared
financial goal here?
Of like, can we find somethingwe're aligned on?
Sure, you want the designer bag, I want to spend the money on a
vacation.
Like, what's the shared thingthat we can align with?

(53:08):
Cause, like these might notchange, we're just aware of them
now.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
I love that.
That's so helpful.
Oh, my goodness, I hope you allare getting as much out of this
as I am today.
Let's get into our power roundquestions real quick.
So these are our rapid firequestion.
You already kind of gave us ananswer, I think, earlier what's
your Enneagram type and how doesit show up in your money habits
, my friend?

Speaker 2 (53:30):
Oh, so I am a Enneagram, three wing, two
social, so I'm a social subtype,which means that I like to be
part of the herd.
I want to be seen as successfuland achieving, which is why I'm
always working on some sort ofproject.
My biggest growth edge withmoney is not investing all of my
money in a project, not knowingif it's going to actually be
sustainable, but I get a lot ofjoy out of doing it in the
moment.
So, noticing that and goingcloser to money harmony that's

(53:54):
the script I want to continue toembody for myself.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
That's fantastic Name .
One financial rule that youthink people should break more
people should break.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
It's more of a statement, which is don't
believe everything you see onthe internet and if it's extreme
, either side, spend more, savemore, try and find something in
the middle.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
Love it.
Great advice.
What's the most transformativemoney mindset shift that you've
personally either experienced orwitnessed?
I'll broaden it.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
I'm thinking of a client who said I asked her what
do you want your futurerelationship with money to be?
Which from CBT, cognitivebehavioral therapy, is the
miracle question.
And she wrote down a few thingsthat she wanted as her homework
.
Between our sessions came backand said I've achieved half of
them already.
And I didn't even know it.
And I was like, boom see, wejust had to like conceptualize
this is what this is it was soexciting she was on her way.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
That's such a great question too.
Hopefully, hopefully, you'llwrite that down.
All right, let's see my lastone that I have for you is
complete the sentence yourrelationship with money is
healthiest when you when you seeit as a tool to be used wisely.
Love it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Oh, Kara, thank you so much.
This is so fantastic.
So many good insights on bothEnneagram types, financial

(55:06):
behaviors and how they can bothwork together to help you shift
your money mindset.
Your perspective, hopefully,has given us some new ways to
think about.
You know how we see and workwith money if not, or it's like
tip of the iceberg getting y'allstarted and on that path.
So thank you so much for all ofthat.
I'm excited for all of ourlisteners who are here with us
still today and for those whocatch us next week when this

(55:27):
live post goes or when thispodcast goes live.
Next week's Power Lounge, weare going to be welcoming Disha
Dyer.
She's going to be sharing herjourney from community college
student to the White House.
She was the social presssecretary for the Obamas Truly
remarkable, phenomenal woman.
Our community read her book ondiplomatic as our book for

(55:49):
February, so we're excited towelcome her to the Power Lounge
podcast.
She's going to share how,through her experience, she was
able to transform impostersyndrome into confidence and
creating some pathways fordiverse leadership.
So, Kara, thanks one last timefor being here with us today.
We really appreciate you.
Thank you Absolutely.
All right, everyone.
That's all we have for you thisweek.
Hopefully we'll see you nextweek.

(56:10):
Always check out our channels.
We're on YouTube and then,anywhere and everywhere you
stream podcasts, give us afollow, subscribe and, as always
, you know, just keep asking,keep giving, keep growing.
We're here for you if there'sanything you need in the
meantime.
Thanks again, everyone.
Bye.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
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