December 1, 2023 • 52 mins
Welcome back to another riveting episode of Tonka Talk. Have you ever found yourself questioning the dynamics of a group you were a part of?
Join the conversation with host Natalie Webster, as she continues the heart-wrenching tale of her experiences growing up in the Church of Scientology. Together with her sister Lana, they embark on a nostalgic journey that will make you laugh, cry, and gasp in disbelief.
This episode promises to unravel the complex web of Scientology, its secretive organizations, and the life-altering experiences of those ensnared in it.
From the shocking revelations of a teenage recruit coerced into signing a billion-year contract, to the devastating effects of a culture built on surveillance and reporting.
Additionally, listen as we uncover how family bonds are tested when duty to an organization is prioritized over childhood.
Join us as Natalie and Lana courageously delve into their therapeutic journey. They discuss the healing process and the power of open family communication. The importance of shared experiences is emphasized as Natalie encourages listeners to reach out with their questions or if they seek support.
Join us on this emotional roller coaster as we unveil the harsh realities of life within the Church of Scientology. You won't want to miss it.
Learn more at https://www.tonkatalk.com where we share more about our Lake Minnetonka community, including upcoming events and our take on local experiences.
Connect with us on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/TonkaTalk/
If you have feedback, questions, or suggestions of a future guests creating community and connection, email natalie@tonkatalk.com
We appreciate your support in sharing Tonka Talk Community and Connection with someone you think could benefit from our content.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to Tonka Talk, where we
talk about community andconnection, and each Friday I
share my personal story ofgrowing up in Scientology,
leaving, and how I found truecommunity after that in the
community that I live and workin.
Today, I'm Natalie Webster, andthis is Tonka Talk.
This is part four of my story.
Today, though, I have a specialtreat for you my sister, lana,
(00:23):
who you've heard me talk aboutin the last.
Well, we're on part four, so inthe last three parts, I've
probably mentioned Lana eachtime.
Welcome Lana.
Hi everybody, and the cool thingis this is actually Lana's
first time publicly sayinganything about Scientology her
time in the C organization.
Right, yeah, like you've nottalked about it at all.
(00:46):
Nope, yeah.
So here we go.
I'm going to wrap up a littlebit, or actually, I'm going to
kind of remind you where we leftoff.
Where we left off in part threewe talked about how my well,
our grandpa became our dad andwhere I left off.
I left off on the part where Iended up being sent away, and
(01:12):
this was in 1983.
So I had just turned 13.
We were living in Waipahu right.
And my big sin, the thing that Idid at 13 that got me banished
for three months by our grandpadad, was that I kissed a boy.
It was at the remember thatpark in Waipahu where it had the
(01:37):
baseball field, and there was apool there.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
It was Waipahu Rec Center.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Yes, so I was there at the time.
I had a kind of boyfriend,Joseph Rivera I even remember
his name, which is crazy.
We were 13 and we were in thedugout at the baseball field and
this was my first kiss ever andwe had a little make out
session and the crazy thing is Ididn't even enjoy it.
(02:04):
I thought kissing was kind ofgross.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I believe you.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yeah, and I remember I was kind of spitting on the
way home because I thought itwas kind of gross that he put
his tongue in my mouth and itseemed very not hygienic.
This was at 13 and my firstkiss not the most you know
magical experience I don't knowif anybody's first time I don't
know, maybe it is Mine wasn'tNot memorable either.
(02:32):
Nope, so I kissed this boy.
I had a home I'm kind ofexcited about it because it was
my first kiss and I was 13 and Ishared it with our cousin who
would come from California andstay with us sometimes and for a
while she was living there aswell and she was a year younger,
a year older than me, and Ishared with her what happened
(02:55):
and she ratted on me.
She told our grandpa my grandpadad, because by them our mom had
already married him and heflipped out and the result of
that was me pretty quickly beingsent to Washington state, to
(03:16):
Moses Lake, washington state,which is I kind of it felt like
it was in the middle of nowhereto go live with our mom's sister
and our cousins, cindy andJulie, who were just a week
younger than me.
They're twins and that was thedeal and at the time it was this
kind of this attitude I wasbeing told of I needed to see
(03:40):
how other people lived.
It was this vibe, the way Irecall it, that I was just
ungrateful and I broke this rule.
We weren't supposed to haveboyfriend.
Do you remember being toldanything about it when I was
sent away?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Just that you kissed a boy and that you were banished
to go live with our cousins inWashington state and there was
no set time that you would beback.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, there was no, this was not a round trip ticket
and it was in the dead ofwinter.
And, remember, we grew up inHawaii, so we were on the island
of Oahu.
I had left only one time, whichis when we left.
It was probably like the yearbefore when we went to
California, which was the firsttime I'd ever been off island
(04:30):
out of Hawaii, and that's whenour mom and grandpa went off to
Vegas while we were inCalifornia and got married.
So we're back from that,they're married, and then I
kissed this boy, I get sent off.
It's the fall of.
What was it like?
83, 84, I was 13.
So I had to have been the fallof 83.
(04:51):
I spent three months inWashington living with my
cousins and my aunt and prettymuch had to kind of beg my way
back.
I remember asking mom a fewtimes like when do I get to come
home?
At first it was kind of coolbecause I thought, oh, I get to
go see snow and experience themainland, something I'd never
done.
You know, you know me, I'malways looking for the silver
(05:13):
lining.
Yep, the traveler too.
Yeah, so I was going to be ableto travel and it was a real
eye-opener because I'd neverbeen again to.
I'd never gone to school on themainland.
It was where I learned to speakproper English, using good
grammar, because in Hawaii wegrew up speaking what's called
pigeon English and I didn't evenrealize that I didn't speak
(05:39):
speak proper English.
So I did learn that there inWashington.
Three months go by.
By then it's January 1984.
I finally am allowed back andpretty much understand that if I
want to stay in the household,I need to.
It's not unusual for a familyto say you know what you need,
(06:00):
our house, our rules.
My pushback is not against that.
It was more like if we didn't,you know, like kiss butt
basically, and not have a voiceand not question him, then there
wouldn't be an issue.
And there were issues becausehe had a beef with the church of
(06:23):
Scientology in Hawaii and so hewould get upset when we would
go there.
I remember you getting introuble once for going to the
church in Hawaii and wanting todo one of the services.
Maybe it was the purificationrundown.
I remember this causing a thislike big, this big problem.
(06:43):
But we're just trying to likeI'm back, I'm trying to lay low.
You know, I'm, I'm, I'm still13 at that point and I'm.
I was feeling a little resentfulwhen I got back, like, oh wow,
I I did get to see how otherpeople live and it was not like
how we lived.
That was.
You know, it was 1983, not 1920.
(07:04):
Kissing a boy at 13 issomething very normal to do and
it was made into this dirty,horrible thing, which I find
really interesting, given thatour current stepdad, grandpa dad
was sleeping with our mom, gotmarried, his son's wife left his
(07:25):
wife of many, many, many yearsand decades to marry our mom.
And I'm like, seriously, likeyou're going to call me out for
kissing a boy at 13 as a single13-year-old kissing another
single 13-year-old no scandal atall After everything that just
went down in our family.
Yeah, very hypocritical.
Yeah, yeah, completely.
(07:45):
So I come back and do youremember, lawni, if you guys, if
you were hanging out at thechurch in Hawaii anymore, or
were you kind of just home doingyour thing While you were gone,
while?
I was gone yeah, or when I gotback.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I was basically floating around playing with our
cousin Burgundy and being a kidbecause part of it was
summertime, I thought.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, and you were 11 at this time.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, and it was.
I just started working at thetrophy shop and so I just kept
busy doing that, playing withour other cousin and trying to
stay out of trouble, stayingquiet, staying obedient, having
a good work ethic.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, which is nothing wrong with having a good
work ethic, and I will say wedid develop a good work ethic.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
We did.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
But could have been done in a little bit of a
different way.
So we move forward here and I'mback in Hawaii and I start
hanging out with I make a newfriend who's the son of the
executive director of the Churchof Scientology in Hawaii and
his name was Bruce and he was myage.
We hit it off, we hung out.
(08:59):
We were really really goodfriends.
My, in fact, my mom would lethim sleep over at our house and
we would all hang out.
It was completely platonic.
And he was recruited.
He ended up joining staff inHawaii and he was 15 then.
He might have started when hewas earlier, do you recall?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
No.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
I don't remember when he started, but it was
somewhere between 13 and 15.
But at 15, I remember, he wasrecruited for the C organization
.
Now, if you don't know, the Corganization is Scientology's I
would call it their paramilitarybranch.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, management, yeah, global organizations and
middle management andinternational management.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
You sign a billion year contract because you're
dedicating not just thislifetime, but in Scientology
they believe in multiplelifetimes, but that you're going
to come back lifetime afterlifetime to serve these billion
years, to serve Scientology Now.
So because Bruce was a staffmember there in Hawaii, you were
(10:10):
not allowed to leave to go tothe C organization if you had a
current contract there.
Staff members signed two and ahalf and five year contracts,
which is an interesting pointbecause they're considered
volunteers, which is how thechurch gets around, not paying
them.
Yet you can't leave, not likeany other volunteering that I
(10:36):
have run into since then.
So Bruce wants to go toCalifornia to join the C
organization, but he has toreplace himself first.
So he recruits me to take hisjob in Hawaii so he can go on to
California and join the Corganization.
So by this time I'm 15 and I was.
(10:57):
It was my sophomore year inhigh school and the plan was for
me to drop out and join staff,be working at the Church of
Scientology in Hawaii.
My mom was fully on boardbecause joining staff or joining
the C organization was justlike, I don't know, becoming a
doctor in some families orjoining the priesthood Right.
(11:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
She would be very proud of us.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yes, so at that time and I'm thinking, oh, I get to
drop out of school, which,honestly, I think was one of the
biggest reasons why I did it.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
That's one of the big reasons why I joined the C org.
That's why I joined the C orgis because I didn't, I was going
to flunk out of ninth grade andbecause you missed so many days
.
Because I missed so many daysgoofing off and yeah it was, it
was, it was one way out.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
And this and this is a theme that you will hear in, I
think, both of our stories isalways trying to find a way out
of a situation, and you'll we'lltalk more about some of the
rules in the C organization andScientology that in the end, we
ended up using against them toget out.
(12:14):
So I dropped out of high school.
I joined staff in Hawaii.
Bruce goes off to California tojoin the C organization.
I not long after get sent toCalifornia to do training for my
job in Hawaii and again Ithought, well, I mean I'm 15,
(12:35):
but you know I'd already gottensent off before, but I was
living with family.
So at this point I'm like well,this you know, you stay in a
dorm.
I thought it would be kind oflike going off to college.
You wish I know which.
If you know anything aboutScientology and the C
organization, it is nothing likethat.
Think more prison or prisoncamp.
(12:57):
Yeah, what did you say?
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
So I go to California , I'm 15 years old, to start
this training to be able to be astaff member in Hawaii, and I
remember the first time when Iarrived and was taken up to the
dorm, the way that Corganization and I'm going to
call it C org for short, becauseit's just easier, but the C?
(13:22):
Org is the C organization,which again is the paramilitary
branch of Scientology where yousign a billion year contract not
unusual to as a young teen, oreven child, to do this.
So they take me up to where I'mgoing to be staying and point
out my bunk and I'm mortified.
I walk into this room.
(13:43):
There's rows and rows of bunkbeds, three beds, three beds
high.
It looked like what you see ontelevision with jails.
They were small, right, theyweren't twin beds, they weren't
they smaller than that, do you?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
recall I think they were twin extra long beds
technically, but more caughtlike.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, they were really thin mattresses, and so
my bunk was to be the top bunk.
Now there's no.
I'm 15 years old.
The only time I'd really lefthome was when I got sent to
Washington, but even then I wasstaying with family.
It was, I remember, that nightjust balling in that bed because
it was so gross.
I don't think there were evensheets.
(14:32):
It was the building that welived in, worked and studied in
used to be a hospital, and ifyou go to Hollywood in LA and
you look for these big blueScientology buildings, that's
where.
That's where we were, that'swhere I was.
In fact, the main road theyrenamed off the sunset is now
(14:52):
called Elrond Harboured Way.
So I'm thinking, okay, this ishorrific, the living conditions,
but I'm going to try to makethe most of it.
If nothing else, we know how tosurvive under unusual and
difficult circumstances.
So I start my training, I'mgoing at it.
In the meantime, you're backhome.
(15:13):
At this time you're almost 14.
You're not even 14.
You're, it's getting towardsthe end of the school year and
you drop out of school Yep,which you weren't even legally.
That was the whole thing.
When I dropped out, I was 15,but I would have turned 16 by my
junior year of high school, soI they felt like, well, that was
(15:35):
fine.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
You mean, which meant that you could just drop out at
16?
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yep, you could legally drop out of school in
Hawaii, at least then at 16.
And I dropped out at 15, but Iwas.
I would have turned 16 beforethe next school year.
So I'm in California studying.
You're back home in Hawaii,you're 14.
Tell me about how you gotrecruited for the C organization
.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Well, a C org member came to the Hawaii org and he
was recruiting for CMU CentralMarketing Unit and I was there
and and I would say I gotcoerced into signing the billion
year contract.
You know, they play it up, theydon't, they don't say oh, your
(16:21):
bunk bed is going to be thehighest, it's going to smell
like bedbugs and you're notgoing to have any sheets and
blankets until you figure it out.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
They don't tell you that up front.
No, they make it sound almostlike you're going to go to
summer camp.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yep Summer camp.
I would have a guardian.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Your guardian was to be your recruiter, right,
correct?
And your recruiter was a mannamed Jonathan Glasford, yes,
who I think now like he escapedthe C organization eventually,
and I think he went to Canada,but I'm not positive.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, I'm not sure.
Long story short, he nevershowed up.
I went to LA.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, remember, she's 14 years old.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Yeah, he never showed up.
I believe he blew.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And to blow in Scientology means to depart and
leave without authorization,which, a lot of the times, is
about the only way that you canleave.
Then I really sign off onpeople leaving that often.
So you're 14, you get recruitedby Jonathan.
He tells the family that he'sgoing to be your legal guardian.
Make sure that you're in school, keep an eye on you Because,
(17:22):
again, you're only 14.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
You get to California , you never see the man.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
No, I never see the man.
I was introduced to the Sea Orgby getting to the birding
building in the middle of thenight and it was dark.
There was no reception,everyone was sleeping and I was
told take your bag and go findthis lady who is going to be
(17:52):
your.
She's going to take care of youwhile you're in the EPF.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
And the EPF is the Estate Project Force, think Boot
Camp for Sea Org members.
It's training that we gothrough, where you spend how
many hours a day for studyingFive?
I think five hours or so.
You study, you study Sea Orgcourses To become a Sea Org
member and the rest of the timeyou're doing physical labor
(18:19):
Correct.
So you're 14, you're not inschool, you arrive at this, you
know again, three bunk beds highand all that, and you're
starting the Estate ProjectForce to become a Sea
Organization member.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yep, Yep, and so I arrive.
There were no signs or anythingin the building.
It was a shanty kind of abuilding.
The stairs inside were cementand crumbling and the when I did
find the lady and she broughtme to my dorm, same thing.
There was no sheets or blankets.
(18:54):
The bed was really gross and wecould not use the bathroom or
the shower Because it didn'twork.
They worked.
I don't know if it was becausethey didn't want to pay for it,
or you know, I don't know, Idon't know.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I'm not sure you know , I have no idea.
You mean you were told youcould not use the bathroom or
the shower in the room, correct?
And you have to kind of picturethese rooms with these bunk
beds, three high.
These are not large rooms and Iwould say I know my first dorm
probably had 15 women in it andthere was one bathroom.
(19:33):
So most of us went to anotherbuilding to shower or even use
the bathroom.
15 women, I think there were 15to 17.
And they're all one next to theother, these bunks.
There's no like living room,there's no kitchen.
You eat in a cafeteria so youget sent to then.
(19:54):
Are you staying then with theother people who were in the
boot camp?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yep, staying with them at this point and the next
morning.
You know LA, you know the smogsettles and it stinks.
You know in the mornings and itwas cold and I was coming from
Hawaii so I didn't really haveproper winter gear for the
mornings, but you know there'sblood on the sidewalk from.
(20:17):
You know the night beforeersmugging or killing or who knows,
because it was right inHollywood.
Yeah, right off of Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Boulevard, yeah, in the 80s?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah and yeah, just with a bunch of tired,
disheveled people trying to makeit through the EPF?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Now, one of the things that happened and I think
this was this would have been,would you say, one thing that
happened in 1986, and a lot ofwhat we're talking about right
now happened around 1986.
L Ron Harbour died in Januaryof 1986.
And it was this.
(20:59):
There was this really big eventwhere it was like mandatory
well, all the events weremandatory for all Scientologists
to attend and it was announced.
And that is when DavidMiscavige took over the Church
of Scientology.
And at that time, I feel liketoo, because L Ron Harbour died,
there was almost more of thisfever pitch to contribute and
(21:22):
become dedicated and dedicateyour life to Scientology.
That was also when that albumcame out, scientology.
The church put out an albumcalled the Road to Freedom,
which I think you can look up onthe internet and you should
just prepare to be.
It's so cringe.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah, it is cringe.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
It's cringe, but I gotta say it's.
Sometimes the songs get stuckin my head and it's not a
completely negative feeling, Ithink, because when there were
times when you know we managedto create joy where we could
find, find fun where we couldfind, you know, try to make
friends.
This Road to Freedom albumcomes out in 1986 and L Ron
(22:08):
Harbour wrote all of the songs.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
There's a lame.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
You gotta hear it was like get on the road to freedom
.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Help us save all mankind.
You know the words yes.
Now, if you are anex-Scientologist and you're
hearing this and it's triggering, I'm very sorry.
On this album was John Travolta.
He sang on the album ChickCorea, leif Garrett, frank
Stallone and Karen Black, yep.
(22:40):
I don't know if there wereother people, but I remember the
little twins specifically.
It was L Ron Harbour andFriends the Road to Freedom, and
this album was played all thetime Yep, constantly, constantly
, which is probably why it'sstill stuck in her head.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, we had some fun in the cult.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
We have some good memories.
Yeah, it's something where it'sI kind of liken it to, you know
, when you go to some countrieswhere they don't have a lot.
You know, you've traveled a lotand you've been to the
Dominican Republic, you've beento where you see these kids who
(23:21):
don't have hardly anything butthey're laughing.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, yeah, they're having fun making their own fun.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
They're making their own fun within with the
circumstances, with what theyhave to work with, and I think
it's also a way of coping anddealing with what's going on,
especially when you're a kid andbeing children.
In Scientology, you're not seenas children, you are spiritual
beings with small bodies, yep.
So that's why you know likeLana was working at 11 and
(23:53):
working, not like were youworking part time.
Are you doing full time summers?
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Full time.
I was even during school.
I was.
I was earning, I think, adollar an hour and I got paid 40
bucks quite consistently.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Yeah For working full time, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
That's why I dropped out of school.
What to make the 40 bucks tobecause working was more
important than school.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
That's very true.
That was kind of a theme in ourfamily as well.
Our mom, even before she gotinto science, she got into
Scientology and when I was fiveand you were three she married a
Scientologist and I talk aboutthat in an earlier episode.
There is this mentality ofbeing one of the worst things
you could do, I would say, as achild in Scientology and a
(24:42):
Scientology family is be adistraction.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yes, right, wouldn't you say yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:48):
That was one of the worst things that you could do
or be.
So if you were working, weworked in the family business,
which is how they got awaypaying a dollar an hour.
And you know, you were 11, noteven working age, and I think
there were rules.
If it was a family business,then child labor laws didn't
fully apply.
Plus, it was the 80s, it was inHawaii, I don't know that
(25:09):
anyone was was really checkingbut early on we were
indoctrinated to believe thatour contribution, regardless of
age, as children, being able towork and contribute, was far
more important than school andstudies and learning short of
studying Scientology.
(25:31):
So there wasn't value put oneducation, which is why and how
you were allowed to, you knowpretty much unchecked Go through
your freshman year and end uppretty much failing because you
didn't, I didn't, never went,you never went.
So it's that you got to kind ofunderstand that mentality.
But we're still kids.
(25:51):
We still wanted to have fun andlaugh and find some joy Again,
just like children in otherparts of the world who who seem
to have nothing, and yet therethey are laughing.
And remember that time you wentto the Dominican Republic.
Can we tell the eyebrow story,your eyebrow?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Oh, I do remember that?
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Was that the Dominican Republic?
Yes, so a lot in her adult life, post Scientology, has done
quite a bit of traveling and youwere in the Dominican Republic
doing.
You were voluntary, yep.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
I was on a mission and we were rebuilding some
houses, some shanty homes, andthis is post.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Scientology after Lana.
Lana left Scientology in thecult long before our family did,
but she did it very quietly.
She was very careful aboutanything she ever said to us
because she knew it could leadto us cutting ties with her and
disconnecting.
But you still.
You got involved in othergroups and organizations and did
good in the world.
(26:56):
So you're there volunteeringand almost everyone in our
family, including our dad, like.
Our eyebrows just come out.
Yeah, they elopecia.
So our grandma had tattooedeyebrows.
Both Lana and I have tattooedeyebrows.
But before you tattooed theeyebrows, go ahead and share
what happened.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
So I'm basically bald in the eyebrow sections and I
went to the Dominican Republicon a missions trip and the
children there, althoughextremely poor, they laughed and
said I laughed and sang songsand wanted to be with us and
explore these Americans thatwere coming in to help them.
(27:41):
And although I didn't speaktheir language and they didn't
speak English, this 12 year oldgirl points at her eyebrows and
looks at me and says no, no, I'mlike oh gosh, yeah, I don't
(28:01):
have any eyebrows.
It must be really interestingto look at a person with no
eyebrows.
It is.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
It's an odd look.
Yeah it's an odd look, but theywere laughing, laughing and
making fun of this and they werelaughing.
I thought that was so funnybecause they were laughing in a
way.
When you told the story earlierthat it wasn't like a in a mean
spirited- way.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, no was just a curious.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Exactly, they were curious and they found it so
funny.
Yeah, they did.
I thought that was so funny.
But that's an example of, Ithink, when your kids,
regardless of what's going onaround you, there's still this
desire to play.
You want to play.
I mean, even as an adult.
Some of the more happy adults Iknow are the ones that still
play.
They get out there and make asnowman if they want, they dance
(28:47):
if they want.
They're just things that youwould relate to more with maybe
children doing.
But you can't take it too far,because if we did some of the
things kids did, we'd be lockedup.
Oh yeah, so you're in boot campfor the C organization, the
Estates Project Force, where youstudy C org member training for
five hours a day and you'redoing manual labor the rest of
(29:08):
the time.
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
It was very intense, very strict.
You weren't allowed to listento music or have any kind of fun
whatsoever.
I had beautiful feet when Iwent to the C org.
I had an arch, just gorgeousfeet, and I didn't have shoes
(29:34):
that would support my feet.
With all the running andeverything, you're on your feet
all day long.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, you have to run everywhere that you go, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, and my arches fell and they hurt so bad and I
should have gone to the doctor.
They were swollen.
I could barely walk, but I wasstill made to run and do all of
the chores that we had to do.
Never went to the doctor aboutit, so now I have flat feet.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
I wonder if that's why I have flat feet.
Maybe we both have flat feet.
I wonder we should talk to awhat's a foot doctor?
Pediatrics yeah, I thought itwas maybe something you were
born with, but what you'resaying is making a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, arches fell and it was very painful.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Do you remember how long you were in boot camp?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
About three to four months and seeing that I had a
background in work you know Imade Boson yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
And explain what Boson is.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Boson, like your own ship, is the person who is in
charge of the Estates ProjectForce people you take down
statistics and you check ontheir work and you make sure
everybody's present andaccounted for it at Musters.
And yeah, it was a, it was areally neat responsibility.
(30:57):
That was actually a joy for mebecause I it was unexpected,
completely unexpected.
Yeah, it wasn't expect I was 14.
I was just a child you knownobody.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
And there were adults in the boot camp.
Oh, plenty, adults, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, that could have been Boson too, but I guess I
was such a good worker yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Cause you've been working full time since you were
11 in the family business backin back in Hawaii.
It was sometimes.
This is kind of a question Iget often about Scientology,
which is how, growing up inScientology, a lot of people
don't understand we're not goingto get too much into this now
but why people stay, or why youput up with some of the abuses
(31:38):
and craziness that goes on.
It's a slow boil, but when itstarts to bubble it stays.
At a boil, I think, is how Iwould describe it.
So when you're kind of you know, growing up we were
indoctrinated to believe thatour value as people, as children
, was based on what we could do,what we could produce.
(32:02):
Yeah, what?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
what could we contribute to the group?
That was the best for the group, Exactly Not for you All about
the group and L Ron Harbourteaches even he.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
There's a Scientology doctrine where he says and this
is used often, it was used inour family and it was used, it's
used a ton in Scientology.
And L Ron Harbour says and Ithink this is an exact quote we
rather have you dead thanincapable.
So from a very young age wewere indoctrinated to believe
(32:39):
that if we could not be capable,live up to these expectations,
do work well beyond our years,keep schedules, we should not
have been keeping as childrenbasically not be children but be
adults.
Yeah, that we needed to be ableto do it and do it with
competence.
Yeah, and that's a theme in theC organization they have, they
(33:00):
have, they have.
What is they're saying?
It's many are called, fewerchosen.
Yeah, and so it really.
When you're a young person, youreally have this young person in
Scientology, you'reindoctrinated with a sense of
duty is not a bad thing in andof itself.
But when it replaces yourchildhood, when it replaces
(33:21):
relationships like familialrelationships and bonding and I
don't, it might have beendifferent for you, but growing
up I don't remember a lot ofphysical contact.
No, In terms of hugs or thingslike that, I always, I always
would tease Lana because Ialways said she was, she was the
favorite.
So I always just assumed shewas getting all the affection.
(33:41):
Little did you know?
Yeah, there was really not.
Not a lot of that, because wewere, we were seeing more.
It didn't feel as much like afamily as it did Like a
corporation.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah, we were.
We worked with our aunts, ouraunties and our cousins and our
grandpa, dad and our mother.
We worked all the time and yeah, we didn't do extracurricular
activities.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
I did a little bit of track in high school and I
remember having to drop out atthat because I needed to work
and that was a bummer.
So there wasn't a lot ofchildhood going on, you know,
really being able to be kidswhen we were growing up.
But because of this we madegood C organization members and
that's why they often wouldrecruit the youngest children of
(34:40):
Scientologists that they could,because they knew that we were
already being indoctrinated intothis way of living, working and
seeing the world.
So when you finally graduated,now to finish the Estates
Project Force, which is Bootcampfor C organization members,
yours took, you said, three orfour months.
(35:00):
There are some people who areon it for several months.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yes, yes, there are a lot of those, and you know me
being 14, probably you know,kind of illiterate you know,
seeing that I was out of school.
There was no school in theC-Org too.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah, none of these underage kids were going to
school.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yeah and yeah.
It was just what you couldcontribute to the workforce.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Yeah to the cause.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Yeah, you had to make money.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Well, yeah, if you were selling things in
Scientology and that was yourjob, you didn't get paid
anything you got during my dayin the C-Org, I think we were
getting $40 a week, $40 or $50when you were getting paid.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, when you were getting paid, and if you weren't
, you know, on the EPF, maybethey, maybe I never I don't
recall getting paid, but maybeit was $15 here and there, yeah,
when you were on the EstatesProject Force, which again the
bootcamp.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
You, I think you got half pay is what it was.
So people would get like $15,$30.
It was probably $15, because Ithink it was between $30 and $40
back in our day in the 80s?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah, I think ours was $30 a week if you were a
full-blown C-Org member.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Yeah, so you graduate the Estates Project Force,
you're still 14.
What happens then?
So the I never make it to CMUBecause then that's the central
marketing unit, which is aC-Organization that oversaw
marketing for the whole globalScientology.
(36:39):
You went, you started, thoughwhich organization did you start
?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
at.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
So then I got recruited for CMO PAC which is
the Commodores MessengerOrganization, referred to a lot
as the CMO, and PAC is thePacific, it's California, it's
LA, it's where we were.
So the Commodores MessengerOrganization for the Pacific
area, and to be in the CMO thereare specific qualifications,
(37:11):
different from other C-Orgpositions, like you couldn't
ever have like and this is whythey were mostly children.
They were.
You were a messenger, you wereconsidered a messenger when you
were in this organization forElrond Hubbard and if anyone has
studied or watched things onScientology about the
C-Organization, you learned thathe had these young kids, elrond
(37:34):
Hubbard, who would take hisorders and go get them enforced
and executed.
It didn't matter if the peoplethat they were bossing around
were adults.
This was their job.
You had to call them Sir.
Even women in theC-Organization were referred to
as Sir if you were senior tosomeone else.
The C-Organization was modeledafter the military, the Navy.
(37:55):
Elrond Hubbard had been in theNavy, so a lot of that carried
over into how the C-Organizationwas run and what it was like
you had.
We had roll call.
Actually I would argue it waswell.
It definitely was more strictthan the military because it was
massively abusive.
Roll calls, you know you had tobe at roll call what?
(38:16):
Three, four times a day.
This was kind of like a normalthing for C-Organization members
.
You're lucky if you got 30minutes for lunch, oh yeah, kind
of a thing.
So you go into the commentersmessenger organization.
You're a fresh C-Organizationmember and I remember, because I
remember, because I think yourhair was short then and you got
(38:36):
your uniform and technically Iwould have had to have called
you Sir because you were seniorto me, but at a point you went
up to the international base andin Scientology, in the
C-Organization, everybody knowswhere it is.
Now it's in Hemet.
Golden Arrow Productions isthere.
(38:57):
But at this time if you were aScientologist or a
C-Organization member, you didnot know where the International
Management Base was.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yes, Huge secret.
Everybody knew where it was,except for Scientologists.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
That's so true.
They had a giant sign out.
So you never knew.
You never knew.
There was kind of like therewould be well, people would
drive back and forth, but therewould be a van that would kind
of regularly go and take people,and when you first go you're
not told how long it's going totake, you're not told where it
is.
So you're recruited up to gointo International Management to
(39:36):
the Commodors MessengerOrganization International,
otherwise known as CMO Int.
That is then where you headed.
Were you about 15?
Speaker 2 (39:46):
by then I think I must have been about 15.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Freshly 15.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yeah, freshly 15.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
So you're on the secretive base.
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (39:57):
It was really nice.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Physically nice.
Physically nice.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Lots of trees, small roads, everything was walkable.
A spread out base, not likehuge buildings like LA or
anything.
Sure, it was like bunkers andthings, but it was really somber
when I went because it wasn'tthat long after Elwynne Hubbard
(40:24):
had died and David Miscavige hadtaken over the church.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, now they weren't somber because Elwynne
Hubbard died.
No, I kind of want to clarifythat point because in
Scientology, especially in the Corganization, you are not
allowed to show what they callmisemotion, negative emotions,
cry, be upset, sad.
For some reason you can besuper pissed off at agreement
(40:50):
people, as long as they arejunior to you, but you're not
allowed to express those type ofemotions.
So the somberness was comingfrom people.
Being like this is horrible.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Yeah, everybody was having a really bad time.
David Miscavige was a tyrantand getting down on everybody.
Golden era productions, I think, was in the state of emergency
at the time.
So everybody was, like you know, head down.
Nobody befriended me.
It was quiet, and quiet in thesense that DM had a motorcycle.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, DM is what people call David Miscavige.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah, he had a motorcycle and it was very loud
and you could hear him start itand roll down the hill to
different parts of the base andpeople would get really scared
and anxious.
You know when that happened.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Because this man was and is abusive to his staff.
And all you have to do is aquick Google of Scientology and
David Miscavige and you willfind and understand the abuses
that occurred in Scientology atthe top levels of the C
organization when you were there.
Were you ever around DavidMiscavige?
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Not in the same office or anything, but I did
see him around.
He would be in the cafeteriatalking to staff.
A few times he would be yellingat staff, particularly gold
(42:36):
staff, golden era productions.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
They created the videos and the cassette tapes
back then and then became DVDsof all of Erwin Harbour's
materials.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yes and yeah.
He yell writing people's faces,spitting all red, faced with
his IG's right behind him.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
And those are inspector generals.
At this time there was aninspector general which would
have been like the head honchoover different branches of
Scientology.
If you think of it like the,what is it in the military, it's
like the chief of staff, Idon't know.
Anyways, they were each overthese different parts of
Scientology.
That went away fairly quicklywhen David Miscavige, not long
(43:20):
after, went full dictator andstarted getting rid of people,
and so you were kind of therearound the beginning of that.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yep, just the beginning.
I should also mention I did get, I did have one friend.
That's right, I had one friendin the world at SEMOINT and her
name was Rowan Hubbard and shewas about 12.
And we had a blast together.
(43:50):
She was allowed to do a lot ofthings that regular CRG members
weren't allowed to do, like gointo spaces and trespass,
basically yeah and yeah she.
Once we were.
She took me up to the raftersof this warehouse where they
(44:11):
were using for movie props.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
And we should.
We should clarify too RowanHubbard was Elron Hubbard's
granddaughter Correct, who wasborn and raised, and at this
time she was only 12 at theInternational Base.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Yeah, yeah and she.
We were up in the rafters onetime and DM came with his IGs
into the building.
So David Miscavige and his hishead guys, yeah it was Marty
Rathburn, mike Rinder and Iforget the guy's other name.
(44:47):
I'll think of it in a minute.
But anyway, they're talking.
They're talking about projectsor whatever.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
I couldn't even really hear them, but I was
terrified because if they lookedup, there we were and Rowan is
starting to laugh and crack upso bad that she had to cover her
mouth and you know, becauseshe's not going to get in
trouble, because she got specialtreatment as Elron Hubbard's
granddaughter.
(45:12):
Yeah, but here you are aregular CRG member Regular.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
CRG member, brand new to the base, and you know, of
course I knew I would be gettingthe blame for for going up in
the rafters like that, but shelaughed and laughed and finally
they left and boy, that was a.
I dodged a bullet, but yeah,she was really fun.
(45:36):
I miss her terribly and youknow, we had a lot of fun
together.
Somebody actually wrote a KR onme.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yeah, and that's a knowledge report.
So in Scientology if someoneviolates the group policy, Erwin
Hubbard's policy or rules you,they write what's called a
knowledge report on you.
They basically read on you.
It's a huge part of theScientology culture and you're
(46:04):
indoctrinated to believe thatyou're reporting on these people
for their own good right, fortheir own spiritual freedom.
But really it's used as aweapon to intimidate, to cause
problems and to rad on eachother and it creates this
atmosphere of no true connection, no real community, because you
(46:25):
don't know, if you saysomething that sounds even the
slightest like you're unhappy inthis organization, you will be
written up and then you willhave to undergo reprogramming,
re-inductrination, so you reallydon't open up to a lot of
people.
So you got a knowledge reportwritten on you.
For what?
Speaker 2 (46:45):
It said that Rowan has been very serious since the
new girl came around.
In so many words and I noticedthey'd walk together and just be
very serious.
And Rowan isn't laughing andplaying and no misery.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Which is so ironic because it's that it's an out
point that this child is notlaughing and playing yet every
single other child inScientology, in the SEA
organization.
If you're laughing and playing,you're out ethics, you're doing
(47:23):
wrong, you need to be corrected,you need to be handled.
But for her it was differentand I'm happy for her for that,
because that's I mean today.
She's gotta be well, let's see,we're in our early 50s, so
she's gotta be in her late 40s.
Yeah, at least hopefully, herchildhood was somewhat a little
(47:43):
bit more normal.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yeah, I think they tried to.
She had home school and-.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
Yeah, meanwhile, no one else is going to school.
You weren't going to school.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
No, she didn't have to work all the crazy hours that
the rest of us did either.
Yeah and yeah, I think she'sout now.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
I hope so.
I had heard some years ago thatshe was out.
I don't know where she is, butwish her well.
I hope she's finding healingand peace.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
If you're out there.
Rowan, I love you, I miss youso terribly and I hope you reach
out.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Yeah, look for Lana.
You can find me easier and I'llconnect you with Lana.
Yeah, so you get this knowledgereport written on you, because-
.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Well, we were talking about serious things, you know,
for kids.
We were contemplating you knowserious things sometimes, and
that's all.
That's all we were doing.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Nothing to it.
So what happened as a result ofthat report being written?
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Well, I had shortly after that been sent back to the
PAC base.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
And this is in LA.
Back to LA.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Yeah, back to LA.
I got into a little bit oftrouble I had.
You know, there was nobodythere for me, there was nobody
to show you around, there wasnobody to guide you.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
And remember she's only 15 years old.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Yeah, and you know, everyone was living in fear and
I was very alone and scared, andyou know had nobody except for
Rowan.
So I did get into a little bitof a trouble.
When I was there.
I did some naughty things so Iwasn't allowed back.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
She was what's referred to as busted off the
base busted off of theinternational base, because if
you, you know you step out ofline, you pretty much get sent
down back to back to LA, back toHollywood, where there's more
Scientology management, becauseyou are unworthy at that point,
which I would say there's morepeople who are probably busted
(49:52):
out of there than who stay.
Now what I wanna do because wewere I don't even know how much
time we're into this I wanna getmore into what happened after
that and when we do anotherepisode, I'm gonna share as well
how I became, how I joined theC organization and the kind of C
(50:15):
organization member that I was,and it might really surprise
you when you find out how thatwent down.
And I think hopefully Lana'sgonna join us again, sure.
So thank you so much forlistening.
This is part four of myScientology story and sharing
this.
It helps me process it, ithelps Lana, it helps you process
(50:36):
it as well.
We've talked about this.
It's funny because when we,when I first started talking
about this on the podcast andTaka Taka is not a podcast about
Scientology, it's about theways people find community and
connection but my story inScientology, my experience has
everything to do with myobsession with community and
connection today.
(50:57):
So I've decided I think I'mfinally ready to talk about it
more and process what happened.
Interestingly, at the same time, lana started a therapy where
she's doing the same thing, andso we thought well, well, hell,
why don't we both talk about itthen?
And a lot of these things youand I have never talked about.
(51:18):
Yeah, not really.
We've not really gotten into it, and so I hope that you join us
.
You can reach me at natalie attankatakcom.
Thank you so much for theemails and the support and the
kind words.
This is, it's a lot to process.
If you have any questions,please email me and ask, and
that goes for my family too.
At a recent holiday event, Irealized that my son, who's 25,
(51:42):
there's some things that Ihadn't told him about the family
that he heard on part three, soI need to remember to update
the family, but please do reachout.
I'm doing my best to share thisstory and share with you what
that experience was, which againhelps us process it.
So much so, lana, we will chatagain.
(52:03):
Everybody else, I will talk toyou later.
Hello everyone and welcome to Tonka Talk, where we
talk about community andconnection, and each Friday I
share my personal story ofgrowing up in Scientology,
leaving, and how I found truecommunity after that in the
community that I live and workin.
Today, I'm Natalie Webster, andthis is Tonka Talk.
This is part four of my story.
Today, though, I have a specialtreat for you my sister, lana,
(00:23):
who you've heard me talk aboutin the last.
Well, we're on part four, so inthe last three parts, I've
probably mentioned Lana eachtime.
Welcome Lana.
Hi everybody, and the cool thingis this is actually Lana's
first time publicly sayinganything about Scientology her
time in the C organization.
Right, yeah, like you've nottalked about it at all.
(00:46):
Nope, yeah.
So here we go.
I'm going to wrap up a littlebit, or actually, I'm going to
kind of remind you where we leftoff.
Where we left off in part threewe talked about how my well,
our grandpa became our dad andwhere I left off.
I left off on the part where Iended up being sent away, and
(01:12):
this was in 1983.
So I had just turned 13.
We were living in Waipahu right.
And my big sin, the thing that Idid at 13 that got me banished
for three months by our grandpadad, was that I kissed a boy.
It was at the remember thatpark in Waipahu where it had the
(01:37):
baseball field, and there was apool there.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
It was Waipahu Rec Center.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Yes, so I was there at the time.
I had a kind of boyfriend,Joseph Rivera I even remember
his name, which is crazy.
We were 13 and we were in thedugout at the baseball field and
this was my first kiss ever andwe had a little make out
session and the crazy thing is Ididn't even enjoy it.
(02:04):
I thought kissing was kind ofgross.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I believe you.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yeah, and I remember I was kind of spitting on the
way home because I thought itwas kind of gross that he put
his tongue in my mouth and itseemed very not hygienic.
This was at 13 and my firstkiss not the most you know
magical experience I don't knowif anybody's first time I don't
know, maybe it is Mine wasn'tNot memorable either.
(02:32):
Nope, so I kissed this boy.
I had a home I'm kind ofexcited about it because it was
my first kiss and I was 13 and Ishared it with our cousin who
would come from California andstay with us sometimes and for a
while she was living there aswell and she was a year younger,
a year older than me, and Ishared with her what happened
(02:55):
and she ratted on me.
She told our grandpa my grandpadad, because by them our mom had
already married him and heflipped out and the result of
that was me pretty quickly beingsent to Washington state, to
(03:16):
Moses Lake, washington state,which is I kind of it felt like
it was in the middle of nowhereto go live with our mom's sister
and our cousins, cindy andJulie, who were just a week
younger than me.
They're twins and that was thedeal and at the time it was this
kind of this attitude I wasbeing told of I needed to see
(03:40):
how other people lived.
It was this vibe, the way Irecall it, that I was just
ungrateful and I broke this rule.
We weren't supposed to haveboyfriend.
Do you remember being toldanything about it when I was
sent away?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Just that you kissed a boy and that you were banished
to go live with our cousins inWashington state and there was
no set time that you would beback.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, there was no, this was not a round trip ticket
and it was in the dead ofwinter.
And, remember, we grew up inHawaii, so we were on the island
of Oahu.
I had left only one time, whichis when we left.
It was probably like the yearbefore when we went to
California, which was the firsttime I'd ever been off island
(04:30):
out of Hawaii, and that's whenour mom and grandpa went off to
Vegas while we were inCalifornia and got married.
So we're back from that,they're married, and then I
kissed this boy, I get sent off.
It's the fall of.
What was it like?
83, 84, I was 13.
So I had to have been the fallof 83.
(04:51):
I spent three months inWashington living with my
cousins and my aunt and prettymuch had to kind of beg my way
back.
I remember asking mom a fewtimes like when do I get to come
home?
At first it was kind of coolbecause I thought, oh, I get to
go see snow and experience themainland, something I'd never
done.
You know, you know me, I'malways looking for the silver
(05:13):
lining.
Yep, the traveler too.
Yeah, so I was going to be ableto travel and it was a real
eye-opener because I'd neverbeen again to.
I'd never gone to school on themainland.
It was where I learned to speakproper English, using good
grammar, because in Hawaii wegrew up speaking what's called
pigeon English and I didn't evenrealize that I didn't speak
(05:39):
speak proper English.
So I did learn that there inWashington.
Three months go by.
By then it's January 1984.
I finally am allowed back andpretty much understand that if I
want to stay in the household,I need to.
It's not unusual for a familyto say you know what you need,
(06:00):
our house, our rules.
My pushback is not against that.
It was more like if we didn't,you know, like kiss butt
basically, and not have a voiceand not question him, then there
wouldn't be an issue.
And there were issues becausehe had a beef with the church of
(06:23):
Scientology in Hawaii and so hewould get upset when we would
go there.
I remember you getting introuble once for going to the
church in Hawaii and wanting todo one of the services.
Maybe it was the purificationrundown.
I remember this causing a thislike big, this big problem.
(06:43):
But we're just trying to likeI'm back, I'm trying to lay low.
You know, I'm, I'm, I'm still13 at that point and I'm.
I was feeling a little resentfulwhen I got back, like, oh wow,
I I did get to see how otherpeople live and it was not like
how we lived.
That was.
You know, it was 1983, not 1920.
(07:04):
Kissing a boy at 13 issomething very normal to do and
it was made into this dirty,horrible thing, which I find
really interesting, given thatour current stepdad, grandpa dad
was sleeping with our mom, gotmarried, his son's wife left his
(07:25):
wife of many, many, many yearsand decades to marry our mom.
And I'm like, seriously, likeyou're going to call me out for
kissing a boy at 13 as a single13-year-old kissing another
single 13-year-old no scandal atall After everything that just
went down in our family.
Yeah, very hypocritical.
Yeah, yeah, completely.
(07:45):
So I come back and do youremember, lawni, if you guys, if
you were hanging out at thechurch in Hawaii anymore, or
were you kind of just home doingyour thing While you were gone,
while?
I was gone yeah, or when I gotback.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I was basically floating around playing with our
cousin Burgundy and being a kidbecause part of it was
summertime, I thought.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, and you were 11 at this time.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, and it was.
I just started working at thetrophy shop and so I just kept
busy doing that, playing withour other cousin and trying to
stay out of trouble, stayingquiet, staying obedient, having
a good work ethic.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, which is nothing wrong with having a good
work ethic, and I will say wedid develop a good work ethic.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
We did.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
But could have been done in a little bit of a
different way.
So we move forward here and I'mback in Hawaii and I start
hanging out with I make a newfriend who's the son of the
executive director of the Churchof Scientology in Hawaii and
his name was Bruce and he was myage.
We hit it off, we hung out.
(08:59):
We were really really goodfriends.
My, in fact, my mom would lethim sleep over at our house and
we would all hang out.
It was completely platonic.
And he was recruited.
He ended up joining staff inHawaii and he was 15 then.
He might have started when hewas earlier, do you recall?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
No.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
I don't remember when he started, but it was
somewhere between 13 and 15.
But at 15, I remember, he wasrecruited for the C organization
.
Now, if you don't know, the Corganization is Scientology's I
would call it their paramilitarybranch.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, management, yeah, global organizations and
middle management andinternational management.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
You sign a billion year contract because you're
dedicating not just thislifetime, but in Scientology
they believe in multiplelifetimes, but that you're going
to come back lifetime afterlifetime to serve these billion
years, to serve Scientology Now.
So because Bruce was a staffmember there in Hawaii, you were
(10:10):
not allowed to leave to go tothe C organization if you had a
current contract there.
Staff members signed two and ahalf and five year contracts,
which is an interesting pointbecause they're considered
volunteers, which is how thechurch gets around, not paying
them.
Yet you can't leave, not likeany other volunteering that I
(10:36):
have run into since then.
So Bruce wants to go toCalifornia to join the C
organization, but he has toreplace himself first.
So he recruits me to take hisjob in Hawaii so he can go on to
California and join the Corganization.
So by this time I'm 15 and I was.
(10:57):
It was my sophomore year inhigh school and the plan was for
me to drop out and join staff,be working at the Church of
Scientology in Hawaii.
My mom was fully on boardbecause joining staff or joining
the C organization was justlike, I don't know, becoming a
doctor in some families orjoining the priesthood Right.
(11:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
She would be very proud of us.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yes, so at that time and I'm thinking, oh, I get to
drop out of school, which,honestly, I think was one of the
biggest reasons why I did it.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
That's one of the big reasons why I joined the C org.
That's why I joined the C orgis because I didn't, I was going
to flunk out of ninth grade andbecause you missed so many days
.
Because I missed so many daysgoofing off and yeah it was, it
was, it was one way out.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
And this and this is a theme that you will hear in, I
think, both of our stories isalways trying to find a way out
of a situation, and you'll we'lltalk more about some of the
rules in the C organization andScientology that in the end, we
ended up using against them toget out.
(12:14):
So I dropped out of high school.
I joined staff in Hawaii.
Bruce goes off to California tojoin the C organization.
I not long after get sent toCalifornia to do training for my
job in Hawaii and again Ithought, well, I mean I'm 15,
(12:35):
but you know I'd already gottensent off before, but I was
living with family.
So at this point I'm like well,this you know, you stay in a
dorm.
I thought it would be kind oflike going off to college.
You wish I know which.
If you know anything aboutScientology and the C
organization, it is nothing likethat.
Think more prison or prisoncamp.
(12:57):
Yeah, what did you say?
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
So I go to California , I'm 15 years old, to start
this training to be able to be astaff member in Hawaii, and I
remember the first time when Iarrived and was taken up to the
dorm, the way that Corganization and I'm going to
call it C org for short, becauseit's just easier, but the C?
(13:22):
Org is the C organization,which again is the paramilitary
branch of Scientology where yousign a billion year contract not
unusual to as a young teen, oreven child, to do this.
So they take me up to where I'mgoing to be staying and point
out my bunk and I'm mortified.
I walk into this room.
(13:43):
There's rows and rows of bunkbeds, three beds, three beds
high.
It looked like what you see ontelevision with jails.
They were small, right, theyweren't twin beds, they weren't
they smaller than that, do you?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
recall I think they were twin extra long beds
technically, but more caughtlike.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, they were really thin mattresses, and so
my bunk was to be the top bunk.
Now there's no.
I'm 15 years old.
The only time I'd really lefthome was when I got sent to
Washington, but even then I wasstaying with family.
It was, I remember, that nightjust balling in that bed because
it was so gross.
I don't think there were evensheets.
(14:32):
It was the building that welived in, worked and studied in
used to be a hospital, and ifyou go to Hollywood in LA and
you look for these big blueScientology buildings, that's
where.
That's where we were, that'swhere I was.
In fact, the main road theyrenamed off the sunset is now
(14:52):
called Elrond Harboured Way.
So I'm thinking, okay, this ishorrific, the living conditions,
but I'm going to try to makethe most of it.
If nothing else, we know how tosurvive under unusual and
difficult circumstances.
So I start my training, I'mgoing at it.
In the meantime, you're backhome.
(15:13):
At this time you're almost 14.
You're not even 14.
You're, it's getting towardsthe end of the school year and
you drop out of school Yep,which you weren't even legally.
That was the whole thing.
When I dropped out, I was 15,but I would have turned 16 by my
junior year of high school, soI they felt like, well, that was
(15:35):
fine.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
You mean, which meant that you could just drop out at
16?
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yep, you could legally drop out of school in
Hawaii, at least then at 16.
And I dropped out at 15, but Iwas.
I would have turned 16 beforethe next school year.
So I'm in California studying.
You're back home in Hawaii,you're 14.
Tell me about how you gotrecruited for the C organization
.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Well, a C org member came to the Hawaii org and he
was recruiting for CMU CentralMarketing Unit and I was there
and and I would say I gotcoerced into signing the billion
year contract.
You know, they play it up, theydon't, they don't say oh, your
(16:21):
bunk bed is going to be thehighest, it's going to smell
like bedbugs and you're notgoing to have any sheets and
blankets until you figure it out.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
They don't tell you that up front.
No, they make it sound almostlike you're going to go to
summer camp.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yep Summer camp.
I would have a guardian.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Your guardian was to be your recruiter, right,
correct?
And your recruiter was a mannamed Jonathan Glasford, yes,
who I think now like he escapedthe C organization eventually,
and I think he went to Canada,but I'm not positive.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, I'm not sure.
Long story short, he nevershowed up.
I went to LA.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, remember, she's 14 years old.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Yeah, he never showed up.
I believe he blew.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And to blow in Scientology means to depart and
leave without authorization,which, a lot of the times, is
about the only way that you canleave.
Then I really sign off onpeople leaving that often.
So you're 14, you get recruitedby Jonathan.
He tells the family that he'sgoing to be your legal guardian.
Make sure that you're in school, keep an eye on you Because,
(17:22):
again, you're only 14.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
You get to California , you never see the man.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
No, I never see the man.
I was introduced to the Sea Orgby getting to the birding
building in the middle of thenight and it was dark.
There was no reception,everyone was sleeping and I was
told take your bag and go findthis lady who is going to be
(17:52):
your.
She's going to take care of youwhile you're in the EPF.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
And the EPF is the Estate Project Force, think Boot
Camp for Sea Org members.
It's training that we gothrough, where you spend how
many hours a day for studyingFive?
I think five hours or so.
You study, you study Sea Orgcourses To become a Sea Org
member and the rest of the timeyou're doing physical labor
(18:19):
Correct.
So you're 14, you're not inschool, you arrive at this, you
know again, three bunk beds highand all that, and you're
starting the Estate ProjectForce to become a Sea
Organization member.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yep, Yep, and so I arrive.
There were no signs or anythingin the building.
It was a shanty kind of abuilding.
The stairs inside were cementand crumbling and the when I did
find the lady and she broughtme to my dorm, same thing.
There was no sheets or blankets.
(18:54):
The bed was really gross and wecould not use the bathroom or
the shower Because it didn'twork.
They worked.
I don't know if it was becausethey didn't want to pay for it,
or you know, I don't know, Idon't know.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I'm not sure you know , I have no idea.
You mean you were told youcould not use the bathroom or
the shower in the room, correct?
And you have to kind of picturethese rooms with these bunk
beds, three high.
These are not large rooms and Iwould say I know my first dorm
probably had 15 women in it andthere was one bathroom.
(19:33):
So most of us went to anotherbuilding to shower or even use
the bathroom.
15 women, I think there were 15to 17.
And they're all one next to theother, these bunks.
There's no like living room,there's no kitchen.
You eat in a cafeteria so youget sent to then.
(19:54):
Are you staying then with theother people who were in the
boot camp?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yep, staying with them at this point and the next
morning.
You know LA, you know the smogsettles and it stinks.
You know in the mornings and itwas cold and I was coming from
Hawaii so I didn't really haveproper winter gear for the
mornings, but you know there'sblood on the sidewalk from.
(20:17):
You know the night beforeersmugging or killing or who knows,
because it was right inHollywood.
Yeah, right off of Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Boulevard, yeah, in the 80s?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah and yeah, just with a bunch of tired,
disheveled people trying to makeit through the EPF?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Now, one of the things that happened and I think
this was this would have been,would you say, one thing that
happened in 1986, and a lot ofwhat we're talking about right
now happened around 1986.
L Ron Harbour died in Januaryof 1986.
And it was this.
(20:59):
There was this really big eventwhere it was like mandatory
well, all the events weremandatory for all Scientologists
to attend and it was announced.
And that is when DavidMiscavige took over the Church
of Scientology.
And at that time, I feel liketoo, because L Ron Harbour died,
there was almost more of thisfever pitch to contribute and
(21:22):
become dedicated and dedicateyour life to Scientology.
That was also when that albumcame out, scientology.
The church put out an albumcalled the Road to Freedom,
which I think you can look up onthe internet and you should
just prepare to be.
It's so cringe.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah, it is cringe.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
It's cringe, but I gotta say it's.
Sometimes the songs get stuckin my head and it's not a
completely negative feeling, Ithink, because when there were
times when you know we managedto create joy where we could
find, find fun where we couldfind, you know, try to make
friends.
This Road to Freedom albumcomes out in 1986 and L Ron
(22:08):
Harbour wrote all of the songs.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
There's a lame.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
You gotta hear it was like get on the road to freedom
.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Help us save all mankind.
You know the words yes.
Now, if you are anex-Scientologist and you're
hearing this and it's triggering, I'm very sorry.
On this album was John Travolta.
He sang on the album ChickCorea, leif Garrett, frank
Stallone and Karen Black, yep.
(22:40):
I don't know if there wereother people, but I remember the
little twins specifically.
It was L Ron Harbour andFriends the Road to Freedom, and
this album was played all thetime Yep, constantly, constantly
, which is probably why it'sstill stuck in her head.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, we had some fun in the cult.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
We have some good memories.
Yeah, it's something where it'sI kind of liken it to, you know
, when you go to some countrieswhere they don't have a lot.
You know, you've traveled a lotand you've been to the
Dominican Republic, you've beento where you see these kids who
(23:21):
don't have hardly anything butthey're laughing.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, yeah, they're having fun making their own fun.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
They're making their own fun within with the
circumstances, with what theyhave to work with, and I think
it's also a way of coping anddealing with what's going on,
especially when you're a kid andbeing children.
In Scientology, you're not seenas children, you are spiritual
beings with small bodies, yep.
So that's why you know likeLana was working at 11 and
(23:53):
working, not like were youworking part time.
Are you doing full time summers?
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Full time.
I was even during school.
I was.
I was earning, I think, adollar an hour and I got paid 40
bucks quite consistently.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Yeah For working full time, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
That's why I dropped out of school.
What to make the 40 bucks tobecause working was more
important than school.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
That's very true.
That was kind of a theme in ourfamily as well.
Our mom, even before she gotinto science, she got into
Scientology and when I was fiveand you were three she married a
Scientologist and I talk aboutthat in an earlier episode.
There is this mentality ofbeing one of the worst things
you could do, I would say, as achild in Scientology and a
(24:42):
Scientology family is be adistraction.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yes, right, wouldn't you say yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:48):
That was one of the worst things that you could do
or be.
So if you were working, weworked in the family business,
which is how they got awaypaying a dollar an hour.
And you know, you were 11, noteven working age, and I think
there were rules.
If it was a family business,then child labor laws didn't
fully apply.
Plus, it was the 80s, it was inHawaii, I don't know that
(25:09):
anyone was was really checkingbut early on we were
indoctrinated to believe thatour contribution, regardless of
age, as children, being able towork and contribute, was far
more important than school andstudies and learning short of
studying Scientology.
(25:31):
So there wasn't value put oneducation, which is why and how
you were allowed to, you knowpretty much unchecked Go through
your freshman year and end uppretty much failing because you
didn't, I didn't, never went,you never went.
So it's that you got to kind ofunderstand that mentality.
But we're still kids.
(25:51):
We still wanted to have fun andlaugh and find some joy Again,
just like children in otherparts of the world who who seem
to have nothing, and yet therethey are laughing.
And remember that time you wentto the Dominican Republic.
Can we tell the eyebrow story,your eyebrow?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Oh, I do remember that?
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Was that the Dominican Republic?
Yes, so a lot in her adult life, post Scientology, has done
quite a bit of traveling and youwere in the Dominican Republic
doing.
You were voluntary, yep.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
I was on a mission and we were rebuilding some
houses, some shanty homes, andthis is post.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Scientology after Lana.
Lana left Scientology in thecult long before our family did,
but she did it very quietly.
She was very careful aboutanything she ever said to us
because she knew it could leadto us cutting ties with her and
disconnecting.
But you still.
You got involved in othergroups and organizations and did
good in the world.
(26:56):
So you're there volunteeringand almost everyone in our
family, including our dad, like.
Our eyebrows just come out.
Yeah, they elopecia.
So our grandma had tattooedeyebrows.
Both Lana and I have tattooedeyebrows.
But before you tattooed theeyebrows, go ahead and share
what happened.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
So I'm basically bald in the eyebrow sections and I
went to the Dominican Republicon a missions trip and the
children there, althoughextremely poor, they laughed and
said I laughed and sang songsand wanted to be with us and
explore these Americans thatwere coming in to help them.
(27:41):
And although I didn't speaktheir language and they didn't
speak English, this 12 year oldgirl points at her eyebrows and
looks at me and says no, no, I'mlike oh gosh, yeah, I don't
(28:01):
have any eyebrows.
It must be really interestingto look at a person with no
eyebrows.
It is.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
It's an odd look.
Yeah it's an odd look, but theywere laughing, laughing and
making fun of this and they werelaughing.
I thought that was so funnybecause they were laughing in a
way.
When you told the story earlierthat it wasn't like a in a mean
spirited- way.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, no was just a curious.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Exactly, they were curious and they found it so
funny.
Yeah, they did.
I thought that was so funny.
But that's an example of, Ithink, when your kids,
regardless of what's going onaround you, there's still this
desire to play.
You want to play.
I mean, even as an adult.
Some of the more happy adults Iknow are the ones that still
play.
They get out there and make asnowman if they want, they dance
(28:47):
if they want.
They're just things that youwould relate to more with maybe
children doing.
But you can't take it too far,because if we did some of the
things kids did, we'd be lockedup.
Oh yeah, so you're in boot campfor the C organization, the
Estates Project Force, where youstudy C org member training for
five hours a day and you'redoing manual labor the rest of
(29:08):
the time.
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
It was very intense, very strict.
You weren't allowed to listento music or have any kind of fun
whatsoever.
I had beautiful feet when Iwent to the C org.
I had an arch, just gorgeousfeet, and I didn't have shoes
(29:34):
that would support my feet.
With all the running andeverything, you're on your feet
all day long.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, you have to run everywhere that you go, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, and my arches fell and they hurt so bad and I
should have gone to the doctor.
They were swollen.
I could barely walk, but I wasstill made to run and do all of
the chores that we had to do.
Never went to the doctor aboutit, so now I have flat feet.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
I wonder if that's why I have flat feet.
Maybe we both have flat feet.
I wonder we should talk to awhat's a foot doctor?
Pediatrics yeah, I thought itwas maybe something you were
born with, but what you'resaying is making a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, arches fell and it was very painful.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Do you remember how long you were in boot camp?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
About three to four months and seeing that I had a
background in work you know Imade Boson yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
And explain what Boson is.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Boson, like your own ship, is the person who is in
charge of the Estates ProjectForce people you take down
statistics and you check ontheir work and you make sure
everybody's present andaccounted for it at Musters.
And yeah, it was a, it was areally neat responsibility.
(30:57):
That was actually a joy for mebecause I it was unexpected,
completely unexpected.
Yeah, it wasn't expect I was 14.
I was just a child you knownobody.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
And there were adults in the boot camp.
Oh, plenty, adults, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, that could have been Boson too, but I guess I
was such a good worker yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Cause you've been working full time since you were
11 in the family business backin back in Hawaii.
It was sometimes.
This is kind of a question Iget often about Scientology,
which is how, growing up inScientology, a lot of people
don't understand we're not goingto get too much into this now
but why people stay, or why youput up with some of the abuses
(31:38):
and craziness that goes on.
It's a slow boil, but when itstarts to bubble it stays.
At a boil, I think, is how Iwould describe it.
So when you're kind of you know, growing up we were
indoctrinated to believe thatour value as people, as children
, was based on what we could do,what we could produce.
(32:02):
Yeah, what?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
what could we contribute to the group?
That was the best for the group, Exactly Not for you All about
the group and L Ron Harbourteaches even he.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
There's a Scientology doctrine where he says and this
is used often, it was used inour family and it was used, it's
used a ton in Scientology.
And L Ron Harbour says and Ithink this is an exact quote we
rather have you dead thanincapable.
So from a very young age wewere indoctrinated to believe
(32:39):
that if we could not be capable,live up to these expectations,
do work well beyond our years,keep schedules, we should not
have been keeping as childrenbasically not be children but be
adults.
Yeah, that we needed to be ableto do it and do it with
competence.
Yeah, and that's a theme in theC organization they have, they
(33:00):
have, they have.
What is they're saying?
It's many are called, fewerchosen.
Yeah, and so it really.
When you're a young person, youreally have this young person in
Scientology, you'reindoctrinated with a sense of
duty is not a bad thing in andof itself.
But when it replaces yourchildhood, when it replaces
(33:21):
relationships like familialrelationships and bonding and I
don't, it might have beendifferent for you, but growing
up I don't remember a lot ofphysical contact.
No, In terms of hugs or thingslike that, I always, I always
would tease Lana because Ialways said she was, she was the
favorite.
So I always just assumed shewas getting all the affection.
(33:41):
Little did you know?
Yeah, there was really not.
Not a lot of that, because wewere, we were seeing more.
It didn't feel as much like afamily as it did Like a
corporation.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah, we were.
We worked with our aunts, ouraunties and our cousins and our
grandpa, dad and our mother.
We worked all the time and yeah, we didn't do extracurricular
activities.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
I did a little bit of track in high school and I
remember having to drop out atthat because I needed to work
and that was a bummer.
So there wasn't a lot ofchildhood going on, you know,
really being able to be kidswhen we were growing up.
But because of this we madegood C organization members and
that's why they often wouldrecruit the youngest children of
(34:40):
Scientologists that they could,because they knew that we were
already being indoctrinated intothis way of living, working and
seeing the world.
So when you finally graduated,now to finish the Estates
Project Force, which is Bootcampfor C organization members,
yours took, you said, three orfour months.
(35:00):
There are some people who areon it for several months.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yes, yes, there are a lot of those, and you know me
being 14, probably you know,kind of illiterate you know,
seeing that I was out of school.
There was no school in theC-Org too.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah, none of these underage kids were going to
school.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yeah and yeah.
It was just what you couldcontribute to the workforce.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Yeah to the cause.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Yeah, you had to make money.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Well, yeah, if you were selling things in
Scientology and that was yourjob, you didn't get paid
anything you got during my dayin the C-Org, I think we were
getting $40 a week, $40 or $50when you were getting paid.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, when you were getting paid, and if you weren't
, you know, on the EPF, maybethey, maybe I never I don't
recall getting paid, but maybeit was $15 here and there, yeah,
when you were on the EstatesProject Force, which again the
bootcamp.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
You, I think you got half pay is what it was.
So people would get like $15,$30.
It was probably $15, because Ithink it was between $30 and $40
back in our day in the 80s?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah, I think ours was $30 a week if you were a
full-blown C-Org member.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Yeah, so you graduate the Estates Project Force,
you're still 14.
What happens then?
So the I never make it to CMUBecause then that's the central
marketing unit, which is aC-Organization that oversaw
marketing for the whole globalScientology.
(36:39):
You went, you started, thoughwhich organization did you start
?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
at.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
So then I got recruited for CMO PAC which is
the Commodores MessengerOrganization, referred to a lot
as the CMO, and PAC is thePacific, it's California, it's
LA, it's where we were.
So the Commodores MessengerOrganization for the Pacific
area, and to be in the CMO thereare specific qualifications,
(37:11):
different from other C-Orgpositions, like you couldn't
ever have like and this is whythey were mostly children.
They were.
You were a messenger, you wereconsidered a messenger when you
were in this organization forElrond Hubbard and if anyone has
studied or watched things onScientology about the
C-Organization, you learned thathe had these young kids, elrond
(37:34):
Hubbard, who would take hisorders and go get them enforced
and executed.
It didn't matter if the peoplethat they were bossing around
were adults.
This was their job.
You had to call them Sir.
Even women in theC-Organization were referred to
as Sir if you were senior tosomeone else.
The C-Organization was modeledafter the military, the Navy.
(37:55):
Elrond Hubbard had been in theNavy, so a lot of that carried
over into how the C-Organizationwas run and what it was like
you had.
We had roll call.
Actually I would argue it waswell.
It definitely was more strictthan the military because it was
massively abusive.
Roll calls, you know you had tobe at roll call what?
(38:16):
Three, four times a day.
This was kind of like a normalthing for C-Organization members
.
You're lucky if you got 30minutes for lunch, oh yeah, kind
of a thing.
So you go into the commentersmessenger organization.
You're a fresh C-Organizationmember and I remember, because I
remember, because I think yourhair was short then and you got
(38:36):
your uniform and technically Iwould have had to have called
you Sir because you were seniorto me, but at a point you went
up to the international base andin Scientology, in the
C-Organization, everybody knowswhere it is.
Now it's in Hemet.
Golden Arrow Productions isthere.
(38:57):
But at this time if you were aScientologist or a
C-Organization member, you didnot know where the International
Management Base was.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yes, Huge secret.
Everybody knew where it was,except for Scientologists.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
That's so true.
They had a giant sign out.
So you never knew.
You never knew.
There was kind of like therewould be well, people would
drive back and forth, but therewould be a van that would kind
of regularly go and take people,and when you first go you're
not told how long it's going totake, you're not told where it
is.
So you're recruited up to gointo International Management to
(39:36):
the Commodors MessengerOrganization International,
otherwise known as CMO Int.
That is then where you headed.
Were you about 15?
Speaker 2 (39:46):
by then I think I must have been about 15.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Freshly 15.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yeah, freshly 15.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
So you're on the secretive base.
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (39:57):
It was really nice.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Physically nice.
Physically nice.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Lots of trees, small roads, everything was walkable.
A spread out base, not likehuge buildings like LA or
anything.
Sure, it was like bunkers andthings, but it was really somber
when I went because it wasn'tthat long after Elwynne Hubbard
(40:24):
had died and David Miscavige hadtaken over the church.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, now they weren't somber because Elwynne
Hubbard died.
No, I kind of want to clarifythat point because in
Scientology, especially in the Corganization, you are not
allowed to show what they callmisemotion, negative emotions,
cry, be upset, sad.
For some reason you can besuper pissed off at agreement
(40:50):
people, as long as they arejunior to you, but you're not
allowed to express those type ofemotions.
So the somberness was comingfrom people.
Being like this is horrible.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Yeah, everybody was having a really bad time.
David Miscavige was a tyrantand getting down on everybody.
Golden era productions, I think, was in the state of emergency
at the time.
So everybody was, like you know, head down.
Nobody befriended me.
It was quiet, and quiet in thesense that DM had a motorcycle.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, DM is what people call David Miscavige.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah, he had a motorcycle and it was very loud
and you could hear him start itand roll down the hill to
different parts of the base andpeople would get really scared
and anxious.
You know when that happened.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Because this man was and is abusive to his staff.
And all you have to do is aquick Google of Scientology and
David Miscavige and you willfind and understand the abuses
that occurred in Scientology atthe top levels of the C
organization when you were there.
Were you ever around DavidMiscavige?
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Not in the same office or anything, but I did
see him around.
He would be in the cafeteriatalking to staff.
A few times he would be yellingat staff, particularly gold
(42:36):
staff, golden era productions.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
They created the videos and the cassette tapes
back then and then became DVDsof all of Erwin Harbour's
materials.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yes and yeah.
He yell writing people's faces,spitting all red, faced with
his IG's right behind him.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
And those are inspector generals.
At this time there was aninspector general which would
have been like the head honchoover different branches of
Scientology.
If you think of it like the,what is it in the military, it's
like the chief of staff, Idon't know.
Anyways, they were each overthese different parts of
Scientology.
That went away fairly quicklywhen David Miscavige, not long
(43:20):
after, went full dictator andstarted getting rid of people,
and so you were kind of therearound the beginning of that.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yep, just the beginning.
I should also mention I did get, I did have one friend.
That's right, I had one friendin the world at SEMOINT and her
name was Rowan Hubbard and shewas about 12.
And we had a blast together.
(43:50):
She was allowed to do a lot ofthings that regular CRG members
weren't allowed to do, like gointo spaces and trespass,
basically yeah and yeah she.
Once we were.
She took me up to the raftersof this warehouse where they
(44:11):
were using for movie props.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
And we should.
We should clarify too RowanHubbard was Elron Hubbard's
granddaughter Correct, who wasborn and raised, and at this
time she was only 12 at theInternational Base.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Yeah, yeah and she.
We were up in the rafters onetime and DM came with his IGs
into the building.
So David Miscavige and his hishead guys, yeah it was Marty
Rathburn, mike Rinder and Iforget the guy's other name.
(44:47):
I'll think of it in a minute.
But anyway, they're talking.
They're talking about projectsor whatever.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
I couldn't even really hear them, but I was
terrified because if they lookedup, there we were and Rowan is
starting to laugh and crack upso bad that she had to cover her
mouth and you know, becauseshe's not going to get in
trouble, because she got specialtreatment as Elron Hubbard's
granddaughter.
(45:12):
Yeah, but here you are aregular CRG member Regular.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
CRG member, brand new to the base, and you know, of
course I knew I would be gettingthe blame for for going up in
the rafters like that, but shelaughed and laughed and finally
they left and boy, that was a.
I dodged a bullet, but yeah,she was really fun.
(45:36):
I miss her terribly and youknow, we had a lot of fun
together.
Somebody actually wrote a KR onme.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yeah, and that's a knowledge report.
So in Scientology if someoneviolates the group policy, Erwin
Hubbard's policy or rules you,they write what's called a
knowledge report on you.
They basically read on you.
It's a huge part of theScientology culture and you're
(46:04):
indoctrinated to believe thatyou're reporting on these people
for their own good right, fortheir own spiritual freedom.
But really it's used as aweapon to intimidate, to cause
problems and to rad on eachother and it creates this
atmosphere of no true connection, no real community, because you
(46:25):
don't know, if you saysomething that sounds even the
slightest like you're unhappy inthis organization, you will be
written up and then you willhave to undergo reprogramming,
re-inductrination, so you reallydon't open up to a lot of
people.
So you got a knowledge reportwritten on you.
For what?
Speaker 2 (46:45):
It said that Rowan has been very serious since the
new girl came around.
In so many words and I noticedthey'd walk together and just be
very serious.
And Rowan isn't laughing andplaying and no misery.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Which is so ironic because it's that it's an out
point that this child is notlaughing and playing yet every
single other child inScientology, in the SEA
organization.
If you're laughing and playing,you're out ethics, you're doing
(47:23):
wrong, you need to be corrected,you need to be handled.
But for her it was differentand I'm happy for her for that,
because that's I mean today.
She's gotta be well, let's see,we're in our early 50s, so
she's gotta be in her late 40s.
Yeah, at least hopefully, herchildhood was somewhat a little
(47:43):
bit more normal.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yeah, I think they tried to.
She had home school and-.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
Yeah, meanwhile, no one else is going to school.
You weren't going to school.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
No, she didn't have to work all the crazy hours that
the rest of us did either.
Yeah and yeah, I think she'sout now.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
I hope so.
I had heard some years ago thatshe was out.
I don't know where she is, butwish her well.
I hope she's finding healingand peace.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
If you're out there.
Rowan, I love you, I miss youso terribly and I hope you reach
out.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Yeah, look for Lana.
You can find me easier and I'llconnect you with Lana.
Yeah, so you get this knowledgereport written on you, because-
.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Well, we were talking about serious things, you know,
for kids.
We were contemplating you knowserious things sometimes, and
that's all.
That's all we were doing.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Nothing to it.
So what happened as a result ofthat report being written?
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Well, I had shortly after that been sent back to the
PAC base.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
And this is in LA.
Back to LA.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Yeah, back to LA.
I got into a little bit oftrouble I had.
You know, there was nobodythere for me, there was nobody
to show you around, there wasnobody to guide you.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
And remember she's only 15 years old.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Yeah, and you know, everyone was living in fear and
I was very alone and scared, andyou know had nobody except for
Rowan.
So I did get into a little bitof a trouble.
When I was there.
I did some naughty things so Iwasn't allowed back.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
She was what's referred to as busted off the
base busted off of theinternational base, because if
you, you know you step out ofline, you pretty much get sent
down back to back to LA, back toHollywood, where there's more
Scientology management, becauseyou are unworthy at that point,
which I would say there's morepeople who are probably busted
(49:52):
out of there than who stay.
Now what I wanna do because wewere I don't even know how much
time we're into this I wanna getmore into what happened after
that and when we do anotherepisode, I'm gonna share as well
how I became, how I joined theC organization and the kind of C
(50:15):
organization member that I was,and it might really surprise
you when you find out how thatwent down.
And I think hopefully Lana'sgonna join us again, sure.
So thank you so much forlistening.
This is part four of myScientology story and sharing
this.
It helps me process it, ithelps Lana, it helps you process
(50:36):
it as well.
We've talked about this.
It's funny because when we,when I first started talking
about this on the podcast andTaka Taka is not a podcast about
Scientology, it's about theways people find community and
connection but my story inScientology, my experience has
everything to do with myobsession with community and
connection today.
(50:57):
So I've decided I think I'mfinally ready to talk about it
more and process what happened.
Interestingly, at the same time, lana started a therapy where
she's doing the same thing, andso we thought well, well, hell,
why don't we both talk about itthen?
And a lot of these things youand I have never talked about.
(51:18):
Yeah, not really.
We've not really gotten into it, and so I hope that you join us
.
You can reach me at natalie attankatakcom.
Thank you so much for theemails and the support and the
kind words.
This is, it's a lot to process.
If you have any questions,please email me and ask, and
that goes for my family too.
At a recent holiday event, Irealized that my son, who's 25,
(51:42):
there's some things that Ihadn't told him about the family
that he heard on part three, soI need to remember to update
the family, but please do reachout.
I'm doing my best to share thisstory and share with you what
that experience was, which againhelps us process it.
So much so, lana, we will chatagain.
(52:03):
Everybody else, I will talk toyou later.
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