December 8, 2023 • 43 mins
Are you ready to embark on a journey through the inner workings of Scientology? Join us, Natalie and Lana, as we peel back the layers of our childhood spent within the confines Scientology.
Our candid Friday episodes offer a glimpse from the dire realities of our past, into the community and connection we found outside of Scientology.
As we unravel these layers, we touch on the profound repercussions of our time within Scientology, the effects that lingered even after our departure. Leaving wasn't easy, and dealing with PTSD, a bitter aftertaste of our past, was a challenge we had to navigate. But what we found was a sense of community and connection, a healing balm for our shared experiences.
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If you have feedback, questions, or suggestions of a future guests creating community and connection, email natalie@tonkatalk.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Tonka Talk .
This is Natalie Webster.
We talk about the ways peoplecreate community and connection,
but on Fridays I share mypersonal story of growing up in
Scientology, how it impacted myfamily and how we were able to
escape and life sense afterwards, how I was able to find true
community and connection, andI'm excited to share that my
(00:23):
sister, Lana, is joining againthis week.
Hello, Lana, obviously, beingwhere sisters we grew up
together, grew up in Scientology, and this is the first time
she's ever talked about her timein Scientology.
We're going to be focusing onthe part of our life when we
were in what's called the COrganization, and the C
(00:43):
Organization is like theparamilitary branch of
Scientology.
It's where middle managementand upper management is.
You sign a billion yearcontract because the idea is you
come back lifetime afterlifetime to work for Scientology
when we left off.
(01:03):
This is, I think we're on partfive here of this story and if
you didn't listen to the earlierepisodes, you can go ahead and
go back.
But you can also jump right inhere and we're going to try to
be good about defining things aswe move along so that, if you
didn't listen to earlierepisodes, you know what we're
talking about when we left off.
(01:24):
Lana.
You were at the internationalbase, so you were at
international management.
And the last, last time we werechatting, you were sharing how
you became friends with RowanHubbard, who's Elwin Hubbard's
granddaughter, and she wastreated differently in the C
Organization for obvious reasonsand you kind of would get in
(01:44):
trouble.
And I had been training.
I was in Los Angeles trainingto be a staff member for the
Church of Scientology in Hawaiiand I was about I was 15 years
old them and I had sharedearlier how I had dropped out of
school to work for Scientology,which is very common, Wouldn't
you say there's.
There's not value on education,no value at all, Only if you're
(02:09):
studying Scientology or theteachings of Elwin Hubbard,
Correct, so it's common.
I would say when you meet maybenot all Scientologists just
depends on when you got in butdefinitely C organization
members.
And sometimes we'll refer to itas the C org, which is short
for C organization.
I try to give the full.
(02:30):
You know what it is.
So people understand if theydon't know anything about
Scientology, but sometimes it'seasy to slip back into the cult.
Speak Now.
So catch us up.
You are at the internationalbase, which back then was a
confidential location thateveryone knew about except
(02:51):
Scientologists.
It's in Hemet, California, andonly certain people get to go
there.
There's a very extensiveapproval process and
interrogation you have to gothrough to make sure you meet
the qualifications.
Even wasn't it even down toweight.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Like you couldn't be.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
maybe that was just an OSA, an office of special
affairs thing, but I rememberhearing that to go to the
international base, like you,couldn't be a certain amount
overweight, or something.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I never heard that.
It makes sense.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I can see them doing that, Doing that yeah completely
, because it's all a lot aboutappearances and how things look,
and you know that is one thing.
That's a theme in Scientologywhen we were growing up and even
into adulthood, where you needto put on this face or this
(03:46):
front of how great things are,exactly how good things are
going, even when they're not,because you need to be.
You need to set a good exampleas a Scientologist and even
saying those words again makesme want to vomit in my mouth a
little, because that was thrownin our face so much that it
became you need to set a goodexample as a C organization
(04:09):
member, which really is just away to control.
So catch us up.
You're there, you're working onthe base.
What's going on?
Speaker 3 (04:19):
So they have their CMO has their own EPF.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, and again, this is the Commoders Messenger
organization, which is a veryhigh up organization in the C
org.
You have to be qualified, youhave to have certain
qualifications to go.
You're considered a messengerof Elron Hubbard.
You are, you are delivering his, his orders.
I always thought of them aslike and they refer to as
(04:46):
messengers for short as reallyjust being a bunch of enforcers.
Yeah, and most of them wereteenagers, if not even younger,
and I think in large partbecause of the stricter
qualifications that they had tobe in the Commodore Commoders
Messenger organization.
If you got an adult, they'vealready been through some stuff
(05:08):
and done some things that woulddisqualify them.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
So you're up there, you're working for at the
international management level,and and what happens?
How do you end up going fromthere back to Los Angeles?
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Well, I was on the estates project for us at int
and I was very unhappy, verylonely, and you were 15 then, I
think so yeah, yeah, very hungryand so-.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
And literally hungry.
We're not talking about you,were hungry for adventure.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Yes, I was literally hungry.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
And why was that?
Because food was terrible.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
And the breaks were very short.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
You didn't have a lot of time to go eat when you
could eat.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Right and when there was a canteen and so you could
buy extras, Like it was in thedesert.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
So Gatorade was really important for me since I
was doing estates projects youwere doing physical work, but
you had to buy your own Gatoradewith your own money, correct?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Which I didn't have.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
No, because C organization members are making
like $40 a week and when you'reon the estates project force,
which is like boot camp, it'slike half that.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Yeah, if you get anything at all, mm-hmm.
And so, anyways, I got into theCOCMO and his wife.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
And that's the commanding officer of this
Commender's Messengerorganization.
So this is a very, very seniorperson in the C organization.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Very.
They had a huge bowl of changein their room and I was in
charge of cleaning their room.
So one day I took some change,took some change, I got myself a
Gatorade and before I left theint base you have to do a sec
(07:11):
check.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
And that's a security check which is like an
interrogation.
You're asked not only have youdone this or that, but even like
have you had thoughts aboutthis or that?
Do you have any negativethoughts about David Miscavige?
Have you?
Have you committed any?
What they're looking for isanything you might have done
while at the international baseRight Against the church.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, so I took some change, got some Gatorade, and I
confessed to that before I left.
There was some other anotherthing too, which I can't
remember, but I confessed to it.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, so you were pretty much honest.
Yep, I did this.
I took some change because Iwanted to get a Gatorade and I
was hungry.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Yep, I just wanted to get it over with and I didn't
want any secrets, so I justadmitted everything.
They asked me questions aboutRoanne and our relationship.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Was so this was in your interrogation, which you
were doing to stay at theinternational base.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
No, I had to leave.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
This is when you were leaving to go back to Los
Angeles, correct To still be aSeagorg member.
So in this interrogation youcome clean about yeah, here's
what I did.
I took this money and then whathappened?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
And then so I got taken to the PAC base.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
And these are the blue buildings in Hollywood.
If you've ever seen some seenprograms about Scientology, they
offer will.
They often will, will shareabout those and that is where
and that's where I was.
That's where I was living andworking at the time.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
So I got sent back, I got sent to the regular EPF
again.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So you had to redo the Seagorg member bootcamp
Correct, which you had alreadydone before.
Correct, and this is cause youwere busted.
Cause you were in trouble forstealing.
Correct Changed to buy aGatorade.
Cause you didn't have any moneyat 15 and you were dehydrated
and hungry.
Yes, Very.
When you're doing thisinterrogation and you're, you're
(09:14):
sharing like this is.
This is why I did it, which inScientology, would be considered
a justification for what youdid when you're and people who
are listening to this.
It's.
I know it's a lot to process,but we kind of really want to
share the mindset too.
In the eyes of Scientology andthe other C organization members
(09:35):
, if you have, if you want toleave or you have any negative
thoughts about Scientology oranyone in Scientology, it is
because you committed crimesagainst those people.
That is completely their belief, so they're always looking for
that.
There's never anyresponsibility taken on the side
of the church.
It wasn't like someone sat youdown and was like, okay, what's
(09:58):
going on?
Where you felt that this wasyour only option to take this
change.
There's no, that compassion'snot there.
And again, you're a minor,you're 15 years old.
At that point was our mom inFlorida or was she in LA?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I think she was in LA .
Speaker 1 (10:16):
So there was a period of time where our mom was gone
and she was in Florida doingScientology services for quite
some time.
But then she came to LosAngeles and she was working for
the Manor Hotel, which is whereCelebrity Center International
is.
That's where, like, tom Cruisewould go, where John Travolta
(10:37):
would go, and it's not far fromthe blue buildings, the PAC base
.
So you're back in LA, you'reredoing the Estates Project
force, and then where do you go?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
And then I ended up in PAC base crew PVC.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
And that is and this is an interesting twist kind of
here.
So Lana went from the top ofthe C organization command chain
, if you will, to a degree, andwas busted all the way down to
what would be considered thelowest of the low organizations,
the Pacific base crew, whichwas the organization within the
(11:18):
Seaworth that took care of thebuildings, the grounds where
people's birthing, where theywould sleep, things like that
would coordinate that Right.
So you're busted down into this.
In the meantime I had beentraining in Los Angeles but I
(11:39):
was supposed to be working backin Hawaii.
I was replacing my best friendat the time.
Bruce had joined the Corganization and he recruited me
to replace him in Hawaii.
Because you have to replaceyourself Cause, even though
you're there quote as avolunteer.
It's a contract that's two anda half years or five years and
mandatory and mandatory rollcalls and all this.
(12:01):
It's how Scientology gets outof paying the people who work
for them a fair wage becausethey're considered quote
volunteers.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
With a mandatory contract.
That's still happening today,which is just so crazy to me.
So I'm in Los Angeles, I goback to Hawaii at one point and
a lot of stuff went down.
I wasn't doing great there andyou were in Los Angeles by then.
Our mom was in Los Angeles andI decided I'm gonna go back and
(12:32):
I'll join the C organization too.
So at least then I would bewith you and mom and there was
nothing for us left in Hawaii.
And if you listen to ourearlier, our earlier episodes
about this, we talk about howour mom had married our grandpa
and it was just chaotic.
So I go to Los Angeles and I'mlike when I was training, when I
(12:56):
was in Los Angeles training towork at the Church of
Scientology in Hawaii, I had todo what's called work, study,
meaning I needed to work becausemy organization in Hawaii
wasn't paying for my room andboard.
So you go for training but youstill have to pay for room and
board so that you can study fulltime.
(13:16):
And if your organization is notpaying, you have to actually
work in the dining room in thegalley, as they called it, and
that's part of the Pacific basedcrew.
So when I went back to join theC organization.
I thought you know I actuallyenjoyed that, my work, study
(13:39):
experience.
Even though it was a lot ofhard work, I enjoyed it and I
liked working with those peopleand Pacific based crew, or PBC
as we're gonna call it.
Again, this is, I don't knowthat there was an organization
in the hierarchy of the C orgthat was lower and I think and
if, if you're an exScientologist or ex C org member
(14:01):
and you know differently, reachout and tell me.
Definitely at that time, andmaybe even ever since, I think I
was the only person to join theC organization and join the,
the PAC based crew.
Just everyone there, in facteveryone I knew in there, was
busted down into thatorganization.
(14:22):
But that's where I'm like, hey,I think I'm going to join here.
I like the people and I'll tellyou what they were fun they
were really fun.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
They were really fun they were about to have fun
while working.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Completely, they were a bunch of pirates.
A bunch of pirates and bums.
Yep, yep.
They because these are peoplewho had gotten in trouble in
this organization and they wereall busted down to something
that was meant to be this kindof demeaning thing or type of
work, and I never saw it thatway.
I just thought, you know, ifI'm going to be here doing this,
(14:55):
I don't really want a hugeamount of responsibility.
I was probably the world'slaziest C org member.
I was.
It's interesting because youhear, you know, we've, we've, we
follow a lot of other podcastsand we've.
I've connected with so many Corganization members since
leaving and many of them were inupper management and many of
(15:19):
the whistleblowers onScientology were international
management and all these things.
I'm like I'm over here Like Ireally didn't do anything I.
So I'm thinking like I'm, I'mjoining this organization, so I
start the estates project forceand fairly quickly I get pulled
off of it Because somebody inmiddle management said well,
(15:42):
natalie, you never replacedyourself in Hawaii as a staff
member, so you can't just gointo the C organization without
replacing yourself there.
And I'm like look, I'm 16 yearsold, I'm a minor, I was like 16,
17,.
Then my mom's here.
I have nobody back in Hawaiithat's an adult, so you want me
(16:05):
to go back as a minor with, withno one to take care of me.
I knew it was like kind of likeit, common sense would dictate
for most, why would you send aminor back by themselves?
But this has never stopped theC organization from moving kids
around or moving parents faraway from where their kids are.
But at the end of the day theyknew that it was a.
(16:29):
You know, it's kind of a legalrequirement that you need to
have a, a guardian, and so shepulls me off.
The estate project force saysthat I can't do it until I get
replaced in Hawaii, which Irefuse to go back to Hawaii.
At that point I'm like, no, mymom's here, my sister's here.
So what I ended up doing?
The estate project force ismade up of what?
What is it?
(16:49):
Five, six hours of study, yep,where you study, see or see or
remember training, and then therest of the time you're doing
physical labor.
Right, like a lot of physicallabor.
For hours, seven days a week.
There's like no time off.
So I think, well, if I'mworking for the PAC base crew in
the galley in the dining room,that's physical work, and then I
(17:11):
would go on my course time andI would do the same courses that
Seorig members and boot campdid.
So I did my own version of theSeorig boot camp to get into the
lowest of the low organizationsthat you can be in Cause again.
I thought they were great backthen.
Um well, lana was there but shehad been busted there and I
(17:33):
think Shane Woodruff was thecommanding officer.
Then it changed a few times.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
It changed a few times.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
There was an Italian guy, franco Bernardi, that's
right.
And then the chef at one pointbecame the commanding officer in
Ian.
I don't remember Ian's lastname Did not like him.
He was a slime ball.
He was creepy.
He made many of the youngergirls feel uncomfortable.
I'm not saying that he didanything.
I'm not aware.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Can we sit?
Can we share dirt on him onthis show or no?
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Oh, why not?
It's factual, it's factual,okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
So he was slimy like that, um, uh, and he was that
way to me too, because him andhis wife were swingers, what
they were swingers and they goout on their their day off, yeah
, and do swinger things.
Have sex with other people, notyour partner.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
How did you know?
This word gets around.
That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
It does, it really does, it was a pervert.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, we definitely.
He definitely had that pervertvibe and his wife.
Well, that surprises me, but itdoesn't surprise me.
And again, he remember we'reyoung teenage girls at this time
.
Yeah, he just was really likethe leering looks and he would
make comments it was totalsexual harassment, totally.
We didn't have the words forthat.
(19:00):
And it wasn't an environmentwhere you had anyone to go to
and say, hey, this is happeningor he's making me feel this way.
You would be cause there's novictims, right, there's no
victims in this organization.
You must have done something tocause that to happen Exactly,
and that's not only when itcomes to sexual harassment or
(19:20):
sexual assault.
That is crazies.
That's why he got busted then.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Maybe I don't know why he got busted to PBC, but no
, he was doing this when he wasin the PBC.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yeah, Wow, that is crazy and what you know, just, I
mean that that's a differentway to live, for sure.
But what you need to understandis to do this in this
environment.
I mean, that's the equivalentof I don't know, going to mass
in the Catholic church andhaving sex on one of the pews.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Yeah, it's really um, it's not allowed.
How can you get away with that?
Yeah, and that's with theSeaworth schedule.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah, and what time off?
Cause hardly you rarely gottime off.
Um, wow, that's just blowing mymind right now.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Sorry, mind blown.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
But it explains why he was so creepy again, and it
really it kind of takes me backto there's again.
Whether you're a child oryou're a teenager, in
Scientology you are a spiritualbeing in a small body.
They don't differentiate thatyou're a child or that you're a
teenager.
There's no accommodations madefor these things Not really and
(20:36):
that is how a lot of abuse endsup occurring because, no one's
really keeping track.
Remember, too, there was anotherguy who was not a Seaworth
member.
He was like hired help.
He worked in the dining room.
Victor, he was uh, he was aHispanic man, he, he, I think he
was like one of the cooksdownstairs.
Anyways, he was one who reallywould make inappropriate
(20:59):
comments and stuff to the younggirls who work there and again,
nothing got done about it.
I remember even sayingsomething about it because he
wasn't a Seaworth member.
He was, he was working there,he was being paid to work.
He was hired staff, yeah, andnothing.
Nothing got done about it.
It's like nobody cared if youwere being mistreated in that
way.
You must have just donesomething to to make it happen.
(21:21):
And later on I won't get intoit now but with my own sexual
assault that was completelycovered up by the Seaworth, I'll
share about that, as we werekind of doing this in kind of a
timeline order and this happeneda few years later.
So I will be sharing that inthe future.
But it really it kind of setsthe stage that this was the kind
of environment that that wewere in.
(21:41):
You really had to watch out foryourself.
At the same time, there weresome really really good people
in there and at this this, thispack based crew, I felt like we
were more of a team, more of agroup.
There was a sense of loyalty.
Yeah, it's kind of watching outfor each other.
Remember the plumber, paul?
(22:03):
He had a beard, he had allthese tattoos tattoo, tattoo
yeah tattoo was the name that hewent by.
Everybody kind of had a handle,because they used the radios
Mm-hmm.
I don't think I had one, though, but that's where I met my
first husband.
So we're there where I'm doingthese courses, so that I can be
a C organization member, eventhough I was already taken off
(22:25):
of boot camp the only one in thehistory of the seaworth again
to, I think, join theOrganization that everybody else
has been busted down into.
But I meet these people whenI'm doing my work city program,
and I'm like these are my people.
They were fun, they had a greatattitude.
It was the type of work we weredoing.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Yeah, they all.
They always won the birthdaygame.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, which was a game within the suit well, all
Scientology organizations whereeverybody has a statistic and
and the whole goal each week.
If your job was to writeletters and you write 50 letters
one week, you would betterwrite at least 51 letters the
next week.
The whole thing is every weekyour statistics needed to be up,
(23:08):
needed to be moving in anupward direction, and if you
wanted any time off, you wouldonly if you got it.
Your statistics had to be hadto be up or you didn't get it.
Mm-hmm.
So it's very common.
Most Seorg members Work sevendays a week.
We had Sunday mornings where wecould do our laundry and clean
our room Maybe.
Maybe if you had that, somepeople weren't even allowed to
(23:29):
do that, but that was kind ofwhat I liked about working in
the in the pack-based crew is iswe did.
It's kind of like it was.
These group of people Misfitstotally, completely.
You know you got busted out of ahigher organization, but I find
it so interesting that in myentire Seorg career, or even
(23:49):
time in Scientology as aparishioner, they were probably
the least pretentious mm-hmmgroup of people that I think I
ever met and when I look back onbecause you and I have talked
about this there's there's somuch crazy and there's so much
abuse and things to work throughand unpack, but at the same
(24:09):
time, we still had moments ofjoy.
Mm-hmm where we create our ownfun, and this is a group of
people that knew how to do that.
Yeah, and it's where I met myhusband and got married at.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
I was 17 and you were there, you were there then
right, I was somewhere on thepack base when you got married.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, because you were at my wedding, mm-hmm.
And so at 17, in the Corganization you this is not a
rule for all Scientologists, butin the C organization you are
not allowed to have sex unlessyou're married.
Mm-hmm.
You're not allowed to what theycall heavy petting Unless you're
(24:52):
married.
So what happens in the Corganization is you don't date,
you marry, you get married andthen you get divorced and you
get married and you get divorced.
For some, some people stayedtogether, but it's this.
It's a whole different type ofworld.
One of the reasons, too.
I wanted to get married as well,when it was just what you did,
(25:13):
and at 17 I was almost an oldmaid Is you?
Then?
When you're married, you get tohave your own room, not
apartment, not house room, andthat was better than sharing a
room with 15 20 other women withbunk bed stack, three high
(25:34):
Right, which is what it was like.
It's not like bed bugs.
Yeah, exactly so I, dan and Ithat's that was my first husband
.
We got married, we were able toget our own room and we still
share the bathroom, our bathroomconnected to another married
couple.
So we we shared that bathroom,but that was such a a step up
(25:55):
from being in a dorm with 15 18other women Sharing one bathroom
or having to go to anotherbuilding to go to the shower in
the bathroom.
Mm-hmm when you were living atthe pack base again, then in the
blue building.
So then you were back in a dorm.
Right, you had to have been,because you weren't married then
(26:15):
.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
No.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Now Again, when you're in the sewer organization
, there's no time.
You're not going to Fridaynight out with your friends.
It's like you would spend maybe20 minutes together at lunch.
Maybe you have 30 minutes atdinner, if you're lucky.
You mean with your partner.
With your partner, or with yourfriends, or getting you know
whoever you're trying to get toknow.
I don't even remember Dan and II mean it just how it went in
(26:41):
the sewer.
You get engaged really early.
One of my good friends was 15and she was married.
Wow, it's just crazy to eventhink about now, but it was just
super common.
How old were you when you gotmarried?
18.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
You were 18.
I made it to 18.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
And I got married when I was 17.
And I remember this is when momwas in California and I needed
her approval if you're under age, so she had to go to the
courthouse with us to sign offon us getting married.
Dan was two years older than me, I think, so he was probably 19
and didn't need that.
I do remember that day mombeing really pissed off because
(27:22):
she had to take time off of herpost, her job, because it
doesn't matter what your job isin the C organization, it's this
.
You're kept in a state of fightor flight all the time.
If your job is to wash dishesand you slow down and you're not
washing as many dishes as youdid the week before, the entire
(27:44):
planet might fall apart.
I mean how would you describehow that felt?
Speaker 3 (27:51):
You mean like if your stats were down and produce as
much as the last week you were.
It depends on organization youwere in, but for me it was.
You were frowned upon by almosteverybody.
You didn't get to celebratewith the rest of the org If they
(28:12):
won the birthday game or ifthey went out to the movies or
whatever.
Yeah, which was few, and farbetween.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
But at Pac-Base Crew, I feel like we went to the
movies maybe a couple times ayear, a couple times a year and
we say that like it's such agreat thing, like oh, it was
cool, we went to the movies liketwice a year.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Yeah, it was a big deal when we went, but that
pressure to produce.
Yeah, the pressure to produceis everywhere, all the time, and
it doesn't matter what your jobis, it's like there's no
different.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Blah, blah, blah, there's no difference.
Everything is this chaoticemergency.
Yes, even, and I'm not jokingwhen I say if your job was to
wash dishes and you're washingless dishes than you did the
week before your intention iscounter to Scientology.
You were trying to stopScientology.
(29:09):
Yep, that's how it's.
Pretty much was put to us.
If you don't do your job notjust do your job, but do your
job to a certain level yeah,then you're just this piece of
crap and you know you get introuble.
And then, when you do your joband you get your statistics up
higher, it's like well, you haveall kinds of freedom that you
(29:30):
know.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Freedom as much as you can in the Seor.
You can go to the outing.
You can maybe slack off alittle, you know, because your
stats are up, so you won't getin trouble, yeah, and this, this
change.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Now, the time period that Lana and I are talking
about was what was that?
The late 80s?
I heard that later in the Seororganization.
Like it didn't even matter.
Like you you do something toget in trouble, like you're just
busted.
It doesn't matter what yourstatistics are.
So when we were there it was alittle bit of a I don't know
Seor light, yeah, compared.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Compared to that.
But if you can imagine havingthat kind of pressure on you
every single day, that you haveto produce more than you did the
week before, or you becomeconvinced that I am this just
piece of crap and I'm trying tostop Scientology because I'm not
working to the level that Ineed to be.
I saw somebody on on one of theFacebook groups may ask a
(30:35):
question or a comment.
The gist of it was I don'tremember exactly what it said,
but the gist was you know,couldn't you just say I'm doing
the best that I can.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Hell.
No, no, no, no, not allowed.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
There is no excuse in Scientology for not producing
right For having statistics thatwould be down.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Even as a kid, you know, as a teenager.
Most of the time I was in theSeorgs oh minor yeah.
And being a kid you know andtold that, no, you can't go to
Disneyland because this one weekyour stats were down.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, forget about the whole year.
Yeah, yeah, exactly it.
Just the pressure is crazy.
The week in the in Scientologyorganizations and the Seorgs
organization goes from Thursdayat two o'clock to the following
Thursday at two o'clock.
So Thursday mornings on thebase were just this crazy
(31:32):
craziness, with everyone tryingto do what they could to get
their statistics up.
Over the previous week I thinkit took me I don't know how many
years after leaving to where Istopped seeing Thursdays that
way, when, because I still feltthis pressure, this incredible
pressure, even though I was.
(31:53):
It was after we had leftScientology.
I want to say it was maybe likesix, seven years before I
finally stopped thinking aboutThursdays in terms of Thursday
at two o'clock, the week ending.
I have to get my statistics up.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
That constant pressure.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
You can see a pattern here what we're talking about,
with why we would have PTSD.
Yeah, I had nightmares and Icouldn't sleep.
This is me being a teenager inthe Seorgs and yeah, there's
just nothing you can do about it.
You just have to keep going.
Yeah, you have to keep going.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
You kind of get into the state of mind of it's just
survival mode.
At one point I was promoted,traded to a higher organization.
I went into middle management,which was the continental
liaison organization, as it wascalled, and they ran Scientology
for the Western United States.
(32:52):
So I didn't want to go.
I don't even remember how Iended up there, but it was for
most the organization members.
I think you want, you want toget promoted.
You know you want to move up.
I did not.
I did not because I knew I kindof had, like considering the
environment a somewhat of a goodthing going here and again I
(33:14):
was like by anyone else'sstandard, I think, outside of
Scientology, my work would havebeen considered exceptional.
But by Seorg standards, youknow, I was kind of a slacker
because I didn't believe in thestaying up all night thing and I
pushed back on a lot of thatand frankly I'm surprised I even
got as far as I did.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Yeah, like did away with a lot of stuff I know and
saying things and that makessense.
No, but I could never.
My brain didn't work that way.
I was just subservient, youknow quiet.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
I would use so in the C organization and in
Scientology.
Anything that Elman Hubbardsays is gospel, like that's the
rule.
He even wrote policies on howwe should wash a car, how you
should do laundry, and thenthat's how everybody does it.
M there were a lot ofviolations of supposedly what
his policy was like aboutkeeping schedules and this
(34:12):
staying up all night stuffwasn't part of existing policy,
but it was done all the time andI remember having a messenger
come to my door really late atnight banging on it.
I get up and enter the door andshe's like you need to be on
your post, you need to bedownstairs at your job.
Blah, blah, blah.
This is what we're doing andI'm like, no, it's late, it's
(34:34):
off schedule to do that and perpolicy, blah, blah, blah, Like I
basically would use churchpolicy to stop policy To stop
policy Exactly, and I don't knowhow I got away with it for as
long as I did because, honestly,I don't know.
It was amazing how I didn't endup on like the rehabilitation
(34:55):
project force which is like thepunishment camp that Syrog
members would be sent to forre-inductranation.
That is the lowest of the low,absolutely the lowest of the low
.
And I think in large part itwas because when I would push
back I would be fairly pleasantabout it.
I wasn't a screamer, it wasn'tgetting all emotional, I'd just
be kind of a matter of factabout it and I think I just had
(35:18):
a way of breaking through, likeI still can see her face, this
woman, when she came to my doorand I was telling her this super
senior to me, and you could seelike she realized, like what I
was saying was true.
It kind of broke through alittle bit of the brainwashing
where it was like well, wait aminute.
(35:39):
Yeah, you're right.
It says over here, ron Herbertsays you should get sleep, you
should be taking care ofyourself, but none of that
actually gets done.
Instead, other policies getenforced.
They just pick and choose,which I suppose is like a lot of
religions right, you can pickand choose what you believe in a
certain doctrine and inScientology and the student
(35:59):
organization.
The vast majority of the timethey are following what Ellen
Herbert says to do and a lot ofwhat he said was wacko.
But there's that added twistwhen your statistics need to be,
you know, need to be gotten up.
Now, when you got married, wasI already out of there or was I
still there?
I feel like I was mine.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
You were already in Seattle, well, you were 18, 1920
.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Yeah, you're right, I would have just moved.
So I got married when I was 17.
And I had I had a miscarriage.
I don't remember if you werethere for that or not.
I didn't even know that I washaving a miscarriage, because I
didn't know what it was and Iwas.
I think we got married in Juneor July and I was turning 18 in
(36:47):
September, so I was probably 18when I had the miscarriage.
I just know.
I was working and then Ithought I was getting my period,
it was just so.
It was really painful and Ithought they were really bad
cramps and I went downstairs andat the time do you remember,
george?
This is when I was still at thePacific base crew.
I was still there, I wasworking in the dining room.
(37:09):
The galley.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
George was my senior and I went into his office and I
was like I don't know what'sgoing on, but my stomach hurts
really bad.
And you got to remember weweren't really raised there,
weren't.
I always felt like we were.
There's these feral kids whokind of raised ourselves to a
degree.
No one really sat us down andsaid I mean, obviously I knew
how babies were made.
(37:33):
You know we had cable.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
But the timing of it all and when you get your period
or even when a miscarriage was.
I had no idea and I wasbleeding so much and I was
downstairs going through thisjust pretty much by myself and I
ended up going to the Corganizations doctor who was
down the road, Dr Dink.
Dr Dink, who has I think hedied years ago and he was also
(38:00):
our one hubbard's doctor.
That is like the one doctor Ithink we were allowed to see and
it was, was it like a mile away?
Speaker 3 (38:08):
down the road.
Yeah, it was walking distance.
I wouldn't say it was walkingdistance.
It's probably one or two miles.
Yeah Well, I had to walk.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yeah, I had to walk too Walk while having a
miscarriage to the doctor andand and get it taken care of.
And he basically told me Iremember he said that you're, if
something's wrong or going on,it's your body's way of kind of
taking care of it.
And then he put me on birthcontrol because in the C
organization a rule had come outsaying that C work members were
(38:41):
not allowed to have childrenand if you had a child you were
sent away from the Corganization to a smaller,
failing Scientology church,which is how I ended up in
Seattle.
But this topic, this subject ofcoerced abortions in the C
organization, was huge.
It happened to me after, afterI had the miscarriage.
(39:04):
I was kind of I I wanted tohave a baby.
That made me realize that, ohmy gosh, like I lost a child and
I hadn't.
I always knew I wanted to be amom, but then that C or girl
came out and then you couldn't.
So my husband and I weren'ttaking precautions.
It was kind of like we werejust, you know, run it up the
(39:24):
flagpole, see who salutes.
And I did end up gettingpregnant again and we're kind of
.
We're coming up on about 40minutes.
So I think we're going to wrapthis up.
But when we talk again, let'stalk about the coerced abortion
in the C organization, how womenwere put under intense pressure
(39:46):
to to abort their children,whether they wanted to or not.
Well, they were put underpressure if they didn't want to,
if you wanted to keep your babyVery ironic being that Elrond
Harbour in his teachings isanti-abortion and we'll go ahead
and share what happened,because that happened to me.
(40:07):
When I ended up gettingpregnant, I was already promoted
to that other organization andit was insane what happened.
And then the same thinghappened to you later on, when
you were 18 and was pregnant andmarried, because, keep in mind,
any C organization member who'sgetting pregnant is married,
(40:27):
but you're.
You were still put under somuch pressure to abort the child
because if you kept it youwould have to leave and then
they lose their free labor.
So we're going to wrap it upnow, but I think we're going to
go ahead and we'll pick up withthat maybe the next time.
That's a pretty intense topicand I think we're going to need
more than a few minutes to delveinto it.
I will say this if you want tolearn more about that, you can
(40:52):
Google it.
C organization, scientologyCoerced Abortion.
I participated in a story withthe Tampa Bay Times after
leaving Scientology with mydaughter Shelby, who obviously I
didn't get the abortion becausethere she was Back then.
My name was Natalie Hagamal,but it's really something that I
(41:14):
think speaks to helping peopleunderstand what that environment
was like and how far itactually went and why it creates
PTSD in people today.
You've been out longer than Ihave.
I've been out for like over adecade now I think maybe 13
years, but this is the firsttime Lon and I have ever sat
(41:35):
down and talked about this.
So it kind of really and it'staken, I think, this amount of
healing and, for you, therapyand working through so much.
So we hope you join us againeach Friday.
We're sharing.
These are the reasons why goingthrough this experience and
(41:55):
coming out of Scientology andfinding community and connection
.
Afterwards I'm so amazed by theway that people connect and
what real community is, and thathas everything to do with
having grown up in Scientologyand gone through that.
So we're going to share moreabout that.
So thank you, lana, for joiningagain.
So tune in.
(42:16):
During the week also, I dropother episodes about the ways
people create community andconnection, which is the main
thing this podcast is about.
But again, on Fridays, and forthe time being, as long as she
will, lana is going to join meand help kind of work through
and share the story and, like Isaid, it's the first time we're
talking about this with eachother as well, and for our
(42:37):
children, who are grown now,it's the first time they're
hearing a lot of this too, and Iguess it's the first time some
of you are hearing it too.
So we hope you join.
If you have any questions forus at all, you can reach me at
Natalie at TonkaTalkcom.
So for now, thank you, and I'lltalk to you later.
Welcome to Tonka Talk .
This is Natalie Webster.
We talk about the ways peoplecreate community and connection,
but on Fridays I share mypersonal story of growing up in
Scientology, how it impacted myfamily and how we were able to
escape and life sense afterwards, how I was able to find true
community and connection, andI'm excited to share that my
(00:23):
sister, Lana, is joining againthis week.
Hello, Lana, obviously, beingwhere sisters we grew up
together, grew up in Scientology, and this is the first time
she's ever talked about her timein Scientology.
We're going to be focusing onthe part of our life when we
were in what's called the COrganization, and the C
(00:43):
Organization is like theparamilitary branch of
Scientology.
It's where middle managementand upper management is.
You sign a billion yearcontract because the idea is you
come back lifetime afterlifetime to work for Scientology
when we left off.
(01:03):
This is, I think we're on partfive here of this story and if
you didn't listen to the earlierepisodes, you can go ahead and
go back.
But you can also jump right inhere and we're going to try to
be good about defining things aswe move along so that, if you
didn't listen to earlierepisodes, you know what we're
talking about when we left off.
(01:24):
Lana.
You were at the internationalbase, so you were at
international management.
And the last, last time we werechatting, you were sharing how
you became friends with RowanHubbard, who's Elwin Hubbard's
granddaughter, and she wastreated differently in the C
Organization for obvious reasonsand you kind of would get in
(01:44):
trouble.
And I had been training.
I was in Los Angeles trainingto be a staff member for the
Church of Scientology in Hawaiiand I was about I was 15 years
old them and I had sharedearlier how I had dropped out of
school to work for Scientology,which is very common, Wouldn't
you say there's.
There's not value on education,no value at all, Only if you're
(02:09):
studying Scientology or theteachings of Elwin Hubbard,
Correct, so it's common.
I would say when you meet maybenot all Scientologists just
depends on when you got in butdefinitely C organization
members.
And sometimes we'll refer to itas the C org, which is short
for C organization.
I try to give the full.
(02:30):
You know what it is.
So people understand if theydon't know anything about
Scientology, but sometimes it'seasy to slip back into the cult.
Speak Now.
So catch us up.
You are at the internationalbase, which back then was a
confidential location thateveryone knew about except
(02:51):
Scientologists.
It's in Hemet, California, andonly certain people get to go
there.
There's a very extensiveapproval process and
interrogation you have to gothrough to make sure you meet
the qualifications.
Even wasn't it even down toweight.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Like you couldn't be.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
maybe that was just an OSA, an office of special
affairs thing, but I rememberhearing that to go to the
international base, like you,couldn't be a certain amount
overweight, or something.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I never heard that.
It makes sense.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I can see them doing that, Doing that yeah completely
, because it's all a lot aboutappearances and how things look,
and you know that is one thing.
That's a theme in Scientologywhen we were growing up and even
into adulthood, where you needto put on this face or this
(03:46):
front of how great things are,exactly how good things are
going, even when they're not,because you need to be.
You need to set a good exampleas a Scientologist and even
saying those words again makesme want to vomit in my mouth a
little, because that was thrownin our face so much that it
became you need to set a goodexample as a C organization
(04:09):
member, which really is just away to control.
So catch us up.
You're there, you're working onthe base.
What's going on?
Speaker 3 (04:19):
So they have their CMO has their own EPF.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, and again, this is the Commoders Messenger
organization, which is a veryhigh up organization in the C
org.
You have to be qualified, youhave to have certain
qualifications to go.
You're considered a messengerof Elron Hubbard.
You are, you are delivering his, his orders.
I always thought of them aslike and they refer to as
(04:46):
messengers for short as reallyjust being a bunch of enforcers.
Yeah, and most of them wereteenagers, if not even younger,
and I think in large partbecause of the stricter
qualifications that they had tobe in the Commodore Commoders
Messenger organization.
If you got an adult, they'vealready been through some stuff
(05:08):
and done some things that woulddisqualify them.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
So you're up there, you're working for at the
international management level,and and what happens?
How do you end up going fromthere back to Los Angeles?
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Well, I was on the estates project for us at int
and I was very unhappy, verylonely, and you were 15 then, I
think so yeah, yeah, very hungryand so-.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
And literally hungry.
We're not talking about you,were hungry for adventure.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Yes, I was literally hungry.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
And why was that?
Because food was terrible.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
And the breaks were very short.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
You didn't have a lot of time to go eat when you
could eat.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Right and when there was a canteen and so you could
buy extras, Like it was in thedesert.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
So Gatorade was really important for me since I
was doing estates projects youwere doing physical work, but
you had to buy your own Gatoradewith your own money, correct?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Which I didn't have.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
No, because C organization members are making
like $40 a week and when you'reon the estates project force,
which is like boot camp, it'slike half that.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Yeah, if you get anything at all, mm-hmm.
And so, anyways, I got into theCOCMO and his wife.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
And that's the commanding officer of this
Commender's Messengerorganization.
So this is a very, very seniorperson in the C organization.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Very.
They had a huge bowl of changein their room and I was in
charge of cleaning their room.
So one day I took some change,took some change, I got myself a
Gatorade and before I left theint base you have to do a sec
(07:11):
check.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
And that's a security check which is like an
interrogation.
You're asked not only have youdone this or that, but even like
have you had thoughts aboutthis or that?
Do you have any negativethoughts about David Miscavige?
Have you?
Have you committed any?
What they're looking for isanything you might have done
while at the international baseRight Against the church.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, so I took some change, got some Gatorade, and I
confessed to that before I left.
There was some other anotherthing too, which I can't
remember, but I confessed to it.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, so you were pretty much honest.
Yep, I did this.
I took some change because Iwanted to get a Gatorade and I
was hungry.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Yep, I just wanted to get it over with and I didn't
want any secrets, so I justadmitted everything.
They asked me questions aboutRoanne and our relationship.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Was so this was in your interrogation, which you
were doing to stay at theinternational base.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
No, I had to leave.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
This is when you were leaving to go back to Los
Angeles, correct To still be aSeagorg member.
So in this interrogation youcome clean about yeah, here's
what I did.
I took this money and then whathappened?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
And then so I got taken to the PAC base.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
And these are the blue buildings in Hollywood.
If you've ever seen some seenprograms about Scientology, they
offer will.
They often will, will shareabout those and that is where
and that's where I was.
That's where I was living andworking at the time.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
So I got sent back, I got sent to the regular EPF
again.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So you had to redo the Seagorg member bootcamp
Correct, which you had alreadydone before.
Correct, and this is cause youwere busted.
Cause you were in trouble forstealing.
Correct Changed to buy aGatorade.
Cause you didn't have any moneyat 15 and you were dehydrated
and hungry.
Yes, Very.
When you're doing thisinterrogation and you're, you're
(09:14):
sharing like this is.
This is why I did it, which inScientology, would be considered
a justification for what youdid when you're and people who
are listening to this.
It's.
I know it's a lot to process,but we kind of really want to
share the mindset too.
In the eyes of Scientology andthe other C organization members
(09:35):
, if you have, if you want toleave or you have any negative
thoughts about Scientology oranyone in Scientology, it is
because you committed crimesagainst those people.
That is completely their belief, so they're always looking for
that.
There's never anyresponsibility taken on the side
of the church.
It wasn't like someone sat youdown and was like, okay, what's
(09:58):
going on?
Where you felt that this wasyour only option to take this
change.
There's no, that compassion'snot there.
And again, you're a minor,you're 15 years old.
At that point was our mom inFlorida or was she in LA?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I think she was in LA .
Speaker 1 (10:16):
So there was a period of time where our mom was gone
and she was in Florida doingScientology services for quite
some time.
But then she came to LosAngeles and she was working for
the Manor Hotel, which is whereCelebrity Center International
is.
That's where, like, tom Cruisewould go, where John Travolta
(10:37):
would go, and it's not far fromthe blue buildings, the PAC base
.
So you're back in LA, you'reredoing the Estates Project
force, and then where do you go?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
And then I ended up in PAC base crew PVC.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
And that is and this is an interesting twist kind of
here.
So Lana went from the top ofthe C organization command chain
, if you will, to a degree, andwas busted all the way down to
what would be considered thelowest of the low organizations,
the Pacific base crew, whichwas the organization within the
(11:18):
Seaworth that took care of thebuildings, the grounds where
people's birthing, where theywould sleep, things like that
would coordinate that Right.
So you're busted down into this.
In the meantime I had beentraining in Los Angeles but I
(11:39):
was supposed to be working backin Hawaii.
I was replacing my best friendat the time.
Bruce had joined the Corganization and he recruited me
to replace him in Hawaii.
Because you have to replaceyourself Cause, even though
you're there quote as avolunteer.
It's a contract that's two anda half years or five years and
mandatory and mandatory rollcalls and all this.
(12:01):
It's how Scientology gets outof paying the people who work
for them a fair wage becausethey're considered quote
volunteers.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
With a mandatory contract.
That's still happening today,which is just so crazy to me.
So I'm in Los Angeles, I goback to Hawaii at one point and
a lot of stuff went down.
I wasn't doing great there andyou were in Los Angeles by then.
Our mom was in Los Angeles andI decided I'm gonna go back and
(12:32):
I'll join the C organization too.
So at least then I would bewith you and mom and there was
nothing for us left in Hawaii.
And if you listen to ourearlier, our earlier episodes
about this, we talk about howour mom had married our grandpa
and it was just chaotic.
So I go to Los Angeles and I'mlike when I was training, when I
(12:56):
was in Los Angeles training towork at the Church of
Scientology in Hawaii, I had todo what's called work, study,
meaning I needed to work becausemy organization in Hawaii
wasn't paying for my room andboard.
So you go for training but youstill have to pay for room and
board so that you can study fulltime.
(13:16):
And if your organization is notpaying, you have to actually
work in the dining room in thegalley, as they called it, and
that's part of the Pacific basedcrew.
So when I went back to join theC organization.
I thought you know I actuallyenjoyed that, my work, study
(13:39):
experience.
Even though it was a lot ofhard work, I enjoyed it and I
liked working with those peopleand Pacific based crew, or PBC
as we're gonna call it.
Again, this is, I don't knowthat there was an organization
in the hierarchy of the C orgthat was lower and I think and
if, if you're an exScientologist or ex C org member
(14:01):
and you know differently, reachout and tell me.
Definitely at that time, andmaybe even ever since, I think I
was the only person to join theC organization and join the,
the PAC based crew.
Just everyone there, in facteveryone I knew in there, was
busted down into thatorganization.
(14:22):
But that's where I'm like, hey,I think I'm going to join here.
I like the people and I'll tellyou what they were fun they
were really fun.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
They were really fun they were about to have fun
while working.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Completely, they were a bunch of pirates.
A bunch of pirates and bums.
Yep, yep.
They because these are peoplewho had gotten in trouble in
this organization and they wereall busted down to something
that was meant to be this kindof demeaning thing or type of
work, and I never saw it thatway.
I just thought, you know, ifI'm going to be here doing this,
(14:55):
I don't really want a hugeamount of responsibility.
I was probably the world'slaziest C org member.
I was.
It's interesting because youhear, you know, we've, we've, we
follow a lot of other podcastsand we've.
I've connected with so many Corganization members since
leaving and many of them were inupper management and many of
(15:19):
the whistleblowers onScientology were international
management and all these things.
I'm like I'm over here Like Ireally didn't do anything I.
So I'm thinking like I'm, I'mjoining this organization, so I
start the estates project forceand fairly quickly I get pulled
off of it Because somebody inmiddle management said well,
(15:42):
natalie, you never replacedyourself in Hawaii as a staff
member, so you can't just gointo the C organization without
replacing yourself there.
And I'm like look, I'm 16 yearsold, I'm a minor, I was like 16,
17,.
Then my mom's here.
I have nobody back in Hawaiithat's an adult, so you want me
(16:05):
to go back as a minor with, withno one to take care of me.
I knew it was like kind of likeit, common sense would dictate
for most, why would you send aminor back by themselves?
But this has never stopped theC organization from moving kids
around or moving parents faraway from where their kids are.
But at the end of the day theyknew that it was a.
(16:29):
You know, it's kind of a legalrequirement that you need to
have a, a guardian, and so shepulls me off.
The estate project force saysthat I can't do it until I get
replaced in Hawaii, which Irefuse to go back to Hawaii.
At that point I'm like, no, mymom's here, my sister's here.
So what I ended up doing?
The estate project force ismade up of what?
What is it?
(16:49):
Five, six hours of study, yep,where you study, see or see or
remember training, and then therest of the time you're doing
physical labor.
Right, like a lot of physicallabor.
For hours, seven days a week.
There's like no time off.
So I think, well, if I'mworking for the PAC base crew in
the galley in the dining room,that's physical work, and then I
(17:11):
would go on my course time andI would do the same courses that
Seorig members and boot campdid.
So I did my own version of theSeorig boot camp to get into the
lowest of the low organizationsthat you can be in Cause again.
I thought they were great backthen.
Um well, lana was there but shehad been busted there and I
(17:33):
think Shane Woodruff was thecommanding officer.
Then it changed a few times.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
It changed a few times.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
There was an Italian guy, franco Bernardi, that's
right.
And then the chef at one pointbecame the commanding officer in
Ian.
I don't remember Ian's lastname Did not like him.
He was a slime ball.
He was creepy.
He made many of the youngergirls feel uncomfortable.
I'm not saying that he didanything.
I'm not aware.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Can we sit?
Can we share dirt on him onthis show or no?
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Oh, why not?
It's factual, it's factual,okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
So he was slimy like that, um, uh, and he was that
way to me too, because him andhis wife were swingers, what
they were swingers and they goout on their their day off, yeah
, and do swinger things.
Have sex with other people, notyour partner.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
How did you know?
This word gets around.
That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
It does, it really does, it was a pervert.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, we definitely.
He definitely had that pervertvibe and his wife.
Well, that surprises me, but itdoesn't surprise me.
And again, he remember we'reyoung teenage girls at this time
.
Yeah, he just was really likethe leering looks and he would
make comments it was totalsexual harassment, totally.
We didn't have the words forthat.
(19:00):
And it wasn't an environmentwhere you had anyone to go to
and say, hey, this is happeningor he's making me feel this way.
You would be cause there's novictims, right, there's no
victims in this organization.
You must have done something tocause that to happen Exactly,
and that's not only when itcomes to sexual harassment or
(19:20):
sexual assault.
That is crazies.
That's why he got busted then.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Maybe I don't know why he got busted to PBC, but no
, he was doing this when he wasin the PBC.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yeah, Wow, that is crazy and what you know, just, I
mean that that's a differentway to live, for sure.
But what you need to understandis to do this in this
environment.
I mean, that's the equivalentof I don't know, going to mass
in the Catholic church andhaving sex on one of the pews.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Yeah, it's really um, it's not allowed.
How can you get away with that?
Yeah, and that's with theSeaworth schedule.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah, and what time off?
Cause hardly you rarely gottime off.
Um, wow, that's just blowing mymind right now.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Sorry, mind blown.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
But it explains why he was so creepy again, and it
really it kind of takes me backto there's again.
Whether you're a child oryou're a teenager, in
Scientology you are a spiritualbeing in a small body.
They don't differentiate thatyou're a child or that you're a
teenager.
There's no accommodations madefor these things Not really and
(20:36):
that is how a lot of abuse endsup occurring because, no one's
really keeping track.
Remember, too, there was anotherguy who was not a Seaworth
member.
He was like hired help.
He worked in the dining room.
Victor, he was uh, he was aHispanic man, he, he, I think he
was like one of the cooksdownstairs.
Anyways, he was one who reallywould make inappropriate
(20:59):
comments and stuff to the younggirls who work there and again,
nothing got done about it.
I remember even sayingsomething about it because he
wasn't a Seaworth member.
He was, he was working there,he was being paid to work.
He was hired staff, yeah, andnothing.
Nothing got done about it.
It's like nobody cared if youwere being mistreated in that
way.
You must have just donesomething to to make it happen.
(21:21):
And later on I won't get intoit now but with my own sexual
assault that was completelycovered up by the Seaworth, I'll
share about that, as we werekind of doing this in kind of a
timeline order and this happeneda few years later.
So I will be sharing that inthe future.
But it really it kind of setsthe stage that this was the kind
of environment that that wewere in.
(21:41):
You really had to watch out foryourself.
At the same time, there weresome really really good people
in there and at this this, thispack based crew, I felt like we
were more of a team, more of agroup.
There was a sense of loyalty.
Yeah, it's kind of watching outfor each other.
Remember the plumber, paul?
(22:03):
He had a beard, he had allthese tattoos tattoo, tattoo
yeah tattoo was the name that hewent by.
Everybody kind of had a handle,because they used the radios
Mm-hmm.
I don't think I had one, though, but that's where I met my
first husband.
So we're there where I'm doingthese courses, so that I can be
a C organization member, eventhough I was already taken off
(22:25):
of boot camp the only one in thehistory of the seaworth again
to, I think, join theOrganization that everybody else
has been busted down into.
But I meet these people whenI'm doing my work city program,
and I'm like these are my people.
They were fun, they had a greatattitude.
It was the type of work we weredoing.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Yeah, they all.
They always won the birthdaygame.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, which was a game within the suit well, all
Scientology organizations whereeverybody has a statistic and
and the whole goal each week.
If your job was to writeletters and you write 50 letters
one week, you would betterwrite at least 51 letters the
next week.
The whole thing is every weekyour statistics needed to be up,
(23:08):
needed to be moving in anupward direction, and if you
wanted any time off, you wouldonly if you got it.
Your statistics had to be hadto be up or you didn't get it.
Mm-hmm.
So it's very common.
Most Seorg members Work sevendays a week.
We had Sunday mornings where wecould do our laundry and clean
our room Maybe.
Maybe if you had that, somepeople weren't even allowed to
(23:29):
do that, but that was kind ofwhat I liked about working in
the in the pack-based crew is iswe did.
It's kind of like it was.
These group of people Misfitstotally, completely.
You know you got busted out of ahigher organization, but I find
it so interesting that in myentire Seorg career, or even
(23:49):
time in Scientology as aparishioner, they were probably
the least pretentious mm-hmmgroup of people that I think I
ever met and when I look back onbecause you and I have talked
about this there's there's somuch crazy and there's so much
abuse and things to work throughand unpack, but at the same
(24:09):
time, we still had moments ofjoy.
Mm-hmm where we create our ownfun, and this is a group of
people that knew how to do that.
Yeah, and it's where I met myhusband and got married at.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
I was 17 and you were there, you were there then
right, I was somewhere on thepack base when you got married.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, because you were at my wedding, mm-hmm.
And so at 17, in the Corganization you this is not a
rule for all Scientologists, butin the C organization you are
not allowed to have sex unlessyou're married.
Mm-hmm.
You're not allowed to what theycall heavy petting Unless you're
(24:52):
married.
So what happens in the Corganization is you don't date,
you marry, you get married andthen you get divorced and you
get married and you get divorced.
For some, some people stayedtogether, but it's this.
It's a whole different type ofworld.
One of the reasons, too.
I wanted to get married as well,when it was just what you did,
(25:13):
and at 17 I was almost an oldmaid Is you?
Then?
When you're married, you get tohave your own room, not
apartment, not house room, andthat was better than sharing a
room with 15 20 other women withbunk bed stack, three high
(25:34):
Right, which is what it was like.
It's not like bed bugs.
Yeah, exactly so I, dan and Ithat's that was my first husband
.
We got married, we were able toget our own room and we still
share the bathroom, our bathroomconnected to another married
couple.
So we we shared that bathroom,but that was such a a step up
(25:55):
from being in a dorm with 15 18other women Sharing one bathroom
or having to go to anotherbuilding to go to the shower in
the bathroom.
Mm-hmm when you were living atthe pack base again, then in the
blue building.
So then you were back in a dorm.
Right, you had to have been,because you weren't married then
(26:15):
.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
No.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Now Again, when you're in the sewer organization
, there's no time.
You're not going to Fridaynight out with your friends.
It's like you would spend maybe20 minutes together at lunch.
Maybe you have 30 minutes atdinner, if you're lucky.
You mean with your partner.
With your partner, or with yourfriends, or getting you know
whoever you're trying to get toknow.
I don't even remember Dan and II mean it just how it went in
(26:41):
the sewer.
You get engaged really early.
One of my good friends was 15and she was married.
Wow, it's just crazy to eventhink about now, but it was just
super common.
How old were you when you gotmarried?
18.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
You were 18.
I made it to 18.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
And I got married when I was 17.
And I remember this is when momwas in California and I needed
her approval if you're under age, so she had to go to the
courthouse with us to sign offon us getting married.
Dan was two years older than me, I think, so he was probably 19
and didn't need that.
I do remember that day mombeing really pissed off because
(27:22):
she had to take time off of herpost, her job, because it
doesn't matter what your job isin the C organization, it's this
.
You're kept in a state of fightor flight all the time.
If your job is to wash dishesand you slow down and you're not
washing as many dishes as youdid the week before, the entire
(27:44):
planet might fall apart.
I mean how would you describehow that felt?
Speaker 3 (27:51):
You mean like if your stats were down and produce as
much as the last week you were.
It depends on organization youwere in, but for me it was.
You were frowned upon by almosteverybody.
You didn't get to celebratewith the rest of the org If they
(28:12):
won the birthday game or ifthey went out to the movies or
whatever.
Yeah, which was few, and farbetween.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
But at Pac-Base Crew, I feel like we went to the
movies maybe a couple times ayear, a couple times a year and
we say that like it's such agreat thing, like oh, it was
cool, we went to the movies liketwice a year.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Yeah, it was a big deal when we went, but that
pressure to produce.
Yeah, the pressure to produceis everywhere, all the time, and
it doesn't matter what your jobis, it's like there's no
different.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Blah, blah, blah, there's no difference.
Everything is this chaoticemergency.
Yes, even, and I'm not jokingwhen I say if your job was to
wash dishes and you're washingless dishes than you did the
week before your intention iscounter to Scientology.
You were trying to stopScientology.
(29:09):
Yep, that's how it's.
Pretty much was put to us.
If you don't do your job notjust do your job, but do your
job to a certain level yeah,then you're just this piece of
crap and you know you get introuble.
And then, when you do your joband you get your statistics up
higher, it's like well, you haveall kinds of freedom that you
(29:30):
know.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Freedom as much as you can in the Seor.
You can go to the outing.
You can maybe slack off alittle, you know, because your
stats are up, so you won't getin trouble, yeah, and this, this
change.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Now, the time period that Lana and I are talking
about was what was that?
The late 80s?
I heard that later in the Seororganization.
Like it didn't even matter.
Like you you do something toget in trouble, like you're just
busted.
It doesn't matter what yourstatistics are.
So when we were there it was alittle bit of a I don't know
Seor light, yeah, compared.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Compared to that.
But if you can imagine havingthat kind of pressure on you
every single day, that you haveto produce more than you did the
week before, or you becomeconvinced that I am this just
piece of crap and I'm trying tostop Scientology because I'm not
working to the level that Ineed to be.
I saw somebody on on one of theFacebook groups may ask a
(30:35):
question or a comment.
The gist of it was I don'tremember exactly what it said,
but the gist was you know,couldn't you just say I'm doing
the best that I can.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Hell.
No, no, no, no, not allowed.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
There is no excuse in Scientology for not producing
right For having statistics thatwould be down.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Even as a kid, you know, as a teenager.
Most of the time I was in theSeorgs oh minor yeah.
And being a kid you know andtold that, no, you can't go to
Disneyland because this one weekyour stats were down.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, forget about the whole year.
Yeah, yeah, exactly it.
Just the pressure is crazy.
The week in the in Scientologyorganizations and the Seorgs
organization goes from Thursdayat two o'clock to the following
Thursday at two o'clock.
So Thursday mornings on thebase were just this crazy
(31:32):
craziness, with everyone tryingto do what they could to get
their statistics up.
Over the previous week I thinkit took me I don't know how many
years after leaving to where Istopped seeing Thursdays that
way, when, because I still feltthis pressure, this incredible
pressure, even though I was.
(31:53):
It was after we had leftScientology.
I want to say it was maybe likesix, seven years before I
finally stopped thinking aboutThursdays in terms of Thursday
at two o'clock, the week ending.
I have to get my statistics up.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
That constant pressure.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
You can see a pattern here what we're talking about,
with why we would have PTSD.
Yeah, I had nightmares and Icouldn't sleep.
This is me being a teenager inthe Seorgs and yeah, there's
just nothing you can do about it.
You just have to keep going.
Yeah, you have to keep going.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
You kind of get into the state of mind of it's just
survival mode.
At one point I was promoted,traded to a higher organization.
I went into middle management,which was the continental
liaison organization, as it wascalled, and they ran Scientology
for the Western United States.
(32:52):
So I didn't want to go.
I don't even remember how Iended up there, but it was for
most the organization members.
I think you want, you want toget promoted.
You know you want to move up.
I did not.
I did not because I knew I kindof had, like considering the
environment a somewhat of a goodthing going here and again I
(33:14):
was like by anyone else'sstandard, I think, outside of
Scientology, my work would havebeen considered exceptional.
But by Seorg standards, youknow, I was kind of a slacker
because I didn't believe in thestaying up all night thing and I
pushed back on a lot of thatand frankly I'm surprised I even
got as far as I did.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Yeah, like did away with a lot of stuff I know and
saying things and that makessense.
No, but I could never.
My brain didn't work that way.
I was just subservient, youknow quiet.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
I would use so in the C organization and in
Scientology.
Anything that Elman Hubbardsays is gospel, like that's the
rule.
He even wrote policies on howwe should wash a car, how you
should do laundry, and thenthat's how everybody does it.
M there were a lot ofviolations of supposedly what
his policy was like aboutkeeping schedules and this
(34:12):
staying up all night stuffwasn't part of existing policy,
but it was done all the time andI remember having a messenger
come to my door really late atnight banging on it.
I get up and enter the door andshe's like you need to be on
your post, you need to bedownstairs at your job.
Blah, blah, blah.
This is what we're doing andI'm like, no, it's late, it's
(34:34):
off schedule to do that and perpolicy, blah, blah, blah, Like I
basically would use churchpolicy to stop policy To stop
policy Exactly, and I don't knowhow I got away with it for as
long as I did because, honestly,I don't know.
It was amazing how I didn't endup on like the rehabilitation
(34:55):
project force which is like thepunishment camp that Syrog
members would be sent to forre-inductranation.
That is the lowest of the low,absolutely the lowest of the low
.
And I think in large part itwas because when I would push
back I would be fairly pleasantabout it.
I wasn't a screamer, it wasn'tgetting all emotional, I'd just
be kind of a matter of factabout it and I think I just had
(35:18):
a way of breaking through, likeI still can see her face, this
woman, when she came to my doorand I was telling her this super
senior to me, and you could seelike she realized, like what I
was saying was true.
It kind of broke through alittle bit of the brainwashing
where it was like well, wait aminute.
(35:39):
Yeah, you're right.
It says over here, ron Herbertsays you should get sleep, you
should be taking care ofyourself, but none of that
actually gets done.
Instead, other policies getenforced.
They just pick and choose,which I suppose is like a lot of
religions right, you can pickand choose what you believe in a
certain doctrine and inScientology and the student
(35:59):
organization.
The vast majority of the timethey are following what Ellen
Herbert says to do and a lot ofwhat he said was wacko.
But there's that added twistwhen your statistics need to be,
you know, need to be gotten up.
Now, when you got married, wasI already out of there or was I
still there?
I feel like I was mine.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
You were already in Seattle, well, you were 18, 1920
.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Yeah, you're right, I would have just moved.
So I got married when I was 17.
And I had I had a miscarriage.
I don't remember if you werethere for that or not.
I didn't even know that I washaving a miscarriage, because I
didn't know what it was and Iwas.
I think we got married in Juneor July and I was turning 18 in
(36:47):
September, so I was probably 18when I had the miscarriage.
I just know.
I was working and then Ithought I was getting my period,
it was just so.
It was really painful and Ithought they were really bad
cramps and I went downstairs andat the time do you remember,
george?
This is when I was still at thePacific base crew.
I was still there, I wasworking in the dining room.
(37:09):
The galley.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
George was my senior and I went into his office and I
was like I don't know what'sgoing on, but my stomach hurts
really bad.
And you got to remember weweren't really raised there,
weren't.
I always felt like we were.
There's these feral kids whokind of raised ourselves to a
degree.
No one really sat us down andsaid I mean, obviously I knew
how babies were made.
(37:33):
You know we had cable.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
But the timing of it all and when you get your period
or even when a miscarriage was.
I had no idea and I wasbleeding so much and I was
downstairs going through thisjust pretty much by myself and I
ended up going to the Corganizations doctor who was
down the road, Dr Dink.
Dr Dink, who has I think hedied years ago and he was also
(38:00):
our one hubbard's doctor.
That is like the one doctor Ithink we were allowed to see and
it was, was it like a mile away?
Speaker 3 (38:08):
down the road.
Yeah, it was walking distance.
I wouldn't say it was walkingdistance.
It's probably one or two miles.
Yeah Well, I had to walk.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yeah, I had to walk too Walk while having a
miscarriage to the doctor andand and get it taken care of.
And he basically told me Iremember he said that you're, if
something's wrong or going on,it's your body's way of kind of
taking care of it.
And then he put me on birthcontrol because in the C
organization a rule had come outsaying that C work members were
(38:41):
not allowed to have childrenand if you had a child you were
sent away from the Corganization to a smaller,
failing Scientology church,which is how I ended up in
Seattle.
But this topic, this subject ofcoerced abortions in the C
organization, was huge.
It happened to me after, afterI had the miscarriage.
(39:04):
I was kind of I I wanted tohave a baby.
That made me realize that, ohmy gosh, like I lost a child and
I hadn't.
I always knew I wanted to be amom, but then that C or girl
came out and then you couldn't.
So my husband and I weren'ttaking precautions.
It was kind of like we werejust, you know, run it up the
(39:24):
flagpole, see who salutes.
And I did end up gettingpregnant again and we're kind of
.
We're coming up on about 40minutes.
So I think we're going to wrapthis up.
But when we talk again, let'stalk about the coerced abortion
in the C organization, how womenwere put under intense pressure
(39:46):
to to abort their children,whether they wanted to or not.
Well, they were put underpressure if they didn't want to,
if you wanted to keep your babyVery ironic being that Elrond
Harbour in his teachings isanti-abortion and we'll go ahead
and share what happened,because that happened to me.
(40:07):
When I ended up gettingpregnant, I was already promoted
to that other organization andit was insane what happened.
And then the same thinghappened to you later on, when
you were 18 and was pregnant andmarried, because, keep in mind,
any C organization member who'sgetting pregnant is married,
(40:27):
but you're.
You were still put under somuch pressure to abort the child
because if you kept it youwould have to leave and then
they lose their free labor.
So we're going to wrap it upnow, but I think we're going to
go ahead and we'll pick up withthat maybe the next time.
That's a pretty intense topicand I think we're going to need
more than a few minutes to delveinto it.
I will say this if you want tolearn more about that, you can
(40:52):
Google it.
C organization, scientologyCoerced Abortion.
I participated in a story withthe Tampa Bay Times after
leaving Scientology with mydaughter Shelby, who obviously I
didn't get the abortion becausethere she was Back then.
My name was Natalie Hagamal,but it's really something that I
(41:14):
think speaks to helping peopleunderstand what that environment
was like and how far itactually went and why it creates
PTSD in people today.
You've been out longer than Ihave.
I've been out for like over adecade now I think maybe 13
years, but this is the firsttime Lon and I have ever sat
(41:35):
down and talked about this.
So it kind of really and it'staken, I think, this amount of
healing and, for you, therapyand working through so much.
So we hope you join us againeach Friday.
We're sharing.
These are the reasons why goingthrough this experience and
(41:55):
coming out of Scientology andfinding community and connection
.
Afterwards I'm so amazed by theway that people connect and
what real community is, and thathas everything to do with
having grown up in Scientologyand gone through that.
So we're going to share moreabout that.
So thank you, lana, for joiningagain.
So tune in.
(42:16):
During the week also, I dropother episodes about the ways
people create community andconnection, which is the main
thing this podcast is about.
But again, on Fridays, and forthe time being, as long as she
will, lana is going to join meand help kind of work through
and share the story and, like Isaid, it's the first time we're
talking about this with eachother as well, and for our
(42:37):
children, who are grown now,it's the first time they're
hearing a lot of this too, and Iguess it's the first time some
of you are hearing it too.
So we hope you join.
If you have any questions forus at all, you can reach me at
Natalie at TonkaTalkcom.
So for now, thank you, and I'lltalk to you later.
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