May 25, 2025 • 27 mins
Jason McKenzie shares his heart-wrenching journey through grief after losing his wife to suicide and his daughter to trauma-induced mental health struggles. His story reveals how childhood trauma ripples through generations and how he found healing through sobriety, purposeful grief work, and helping others.
• Lost his police officer wife to suicide after years battling mental health issues stemming from childhood trauma
• Daughters were just six and five when their mother died, causing deep trauma despite their young age
• Developed a four-year drinking problem while trying to appear like he "had it together"
• Experienced breakthrough moment when his nine-year-old daughter said "I'm disappointed in you"
• Lost his 19-year-old daughter to a car accident related to mental health struggles
• Discovered that many mental health issues stem from unprocessed childhood trauma
• Creates TikTok videos about grief that have reached 40 million views and helped prevent suicides
• Uses somatic experiencing therapy to process grief through body awareness
• Writing a book called "Man Down" about grief specifically targeted to men
• Emphasizes the power of intentional language in shaping our experience of grief
• Practices positive reframing: "I can be grateful for 19 years with her because it's better than zero"
• Believes healing comes through facing what seems unfaceable and sitting with difficult emotions
Contact Jason through TonyMantor.com if you'd like to share your story on Why Not Me? The World podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:28):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is JasonMcKenzie.
He's here to share a profoundmoment of reckoning.
After losing his wife tosuicide and his daughter to
mental health struggles, hefaced a turning point four years
later.
A heavy day of drinking led toa heart-wrenching wake-up call
(01:16):
from his nine-year-old daughter,who voiced her disappointment
in him.
In that moment, he saw a manconsumed by fear, doubt and
insecurity To become the strong,courageous and wise father his
daughter respected.
He knew he had to overcome andconfront his inner demons.
He's here to tell hisheart-wrenching story with us
(01:37):
and give us insight on hiscontinuous work to overcome his
grief.
He has tremendous insights anda lot of great information.
It's a true pleasure to havehim join us today.
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
My pleasure.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yes, mine as well, If you could give us an overview
on what you do.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, I think what got us into contact with each
other was.
So I own a couple businesses.
One is a leadership andmanagement consulting company so
we do executive coaching,leadership training et cetera,
and the other one is we run amastermind group for dads who
own businesses so we teach themhow to be skills, to be better
husbands and father and businessowners and really fun,
uplifting work.
Actually, why we're talking isbecause I lost my wife to
(02:17):
suicide and my daughter to a caraccident.
It was really a result of hermother's suicide.
My daughter was just.
It just shattered her soul andat the end of her life she was
19, but she was dealing withthis the same trauma-induced
mental health issues as her momand ended up dying just over two
years ago.
Drinking and driving.
She almost killed she wasdriving.
She almost killed four otherpeople.
Just a freaking disaster.
(02:38):
I just been talking a lot aboutgrief and writing a book about
grief and yeah, that's me talk alot about grief and write a
book about grief and yeah,that's me.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Wow, that must be just so hard to deal with.
With that said, needless to say, it affects the family, affects
you.
How did you deal with it?
Can you give us a little bit ofinsight on what you went
through, going through thesetragedies?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
oh yeah, I mean the, the mental health aspect.
I mean I think like I feel likea grief, you know, and the
issues that drives.
I mean I've been like I've beenan addict, you know, after my
wife's suicide and very littleawareness of, you know, the
relationship between trauma andmental health.
You know, my wife was reallyinteresting, actually she was a
(03:20):
police officer.
She suffered really badchildhood sexual abuse and the
interesting thing is a lot ofpeople who have adverse
childhood experiences are calledto these helping professions,
right.
So they sometimes they don'teven really realize it, you know
, and but that makes them moresusceptible to trauma, so, uh.
So the five years leading up tomy wife's uh death were just
(03:40):
unbelievable, like you knowpsych w psych wards, homeless
shelters, rehab, like just crazystuff.
And you know, what wasfascinating in a horrifying way
was how our medical systempathologized her experience to
the point of just basicallydrugging her into compliance and
no one ever said, hey, whathappened to you?
(04:01):
It was a long time afterwardswhere I was talking to a
therapist friend of mine who hasbeen working the the mental
health space forever and I wastalking about this experience
and she goes.
Cindy wasn't bipolar becauseshe had a chemical imbalance.
She was having emotionallydriven responses to trauma and
invalidating experiences, andshe explained to me how that all
worked and it was like man,that's pretty eye-opening,
(04:22):
pretty eye-opening experience.
Yeah, I mean so.
Anyways, my point to that wasyou know, I'm not like a mental
health expert by any stretch ofthe imagination, but I used to
do a podcast called MentalHealth Warriors.
I run a community for mendealing with mental health
issues.
I'm not doing that now, butI've actually been thinking
about doing it again.
Interestingly, in thatcommunity there was a couple
hundred guys in there at onepoint and I would always talk to
the guys that came in and everysingle one had trauma when they
(04:46):
were basically a kid.
Something terrible happened tothem when they were a kid.
Now they're in their 40s, 30s,40s, 50s, so many of them don't
see the thread that runs throughtheir whole life because it
happened all that time ago.
What does that have to do withme being in my 50s and being an
alcoholic or being likedepressed or being like full on
rage?
You know?
Just fascinating.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah, I mean, if you stop and think about it, we, as
we grow up, we'll have somethinghappen to us and then we'll
completely push it down in thesurface where it's not seen.
And then five, 10, 15, 20 yearslater, whatever that timeframe
may be, all of a sudden it justresurfaces.
It can be from a smell, it canbe from a song or anything that
(05:29):
opens that trauma up, and thenyou're back into it again.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Absolutely, Absolutely right.
You know what for me like.
So I had a when I, during mywife's you know, I mean trying
to like that whole situation wasjust a frigging nightmare,
trying to raise two kids and allthis stuff and keep her alive.
And so during that time Ideveloped a huge drinking
problem.
Not even intentionally, but forme, being a typical guy, all I
wanted people to see like whatwas important for me to project
(05:56):
to the world was that I had myshit together.
No one can have their shittogether in a situation like
that.
It was a complete disaster.
Every day I'm not going to talkabout all the terrible things
that are going on in my head andheart so I drank to make them
go away without even thinkingabout it, Like it wasn't, like
that was not an intentionalstrategy.
And then afterwards, after mywife died, I drank every day, a
(06:18):
lot every day for four and ahalf years and I got remarried
and everything and you know, andfinally had like my you know,
quote rock bottom moment orwhatever, and about six months
later I started to grieve mywife's death.
So it was like five years aftershe died.
Now that process.
I didn't even know what washappening to me.
I thought I was going crazy,actually.
And my wife said you'regrieving, you freaking idiot?
Like, oh god, maybe I am, butwhat I realized afterwards is it
(06:43):
never occurred to me, like noteven a single time, that I was
drinking to numb the pain for mywife's death, Because I thought
I had put it behind me,whatever that even means, Like
it never crossed my mind.
And I was like afterwards I waslike, oh my God, like I'm not a
total idiot.
You know, like God, there mustbe so many other people that are
in this same situation, youknow.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
So how did you get away from that?
What did you use for motivationto change your path?
Did you have an idea or a planto get away from that, so that
you could actually finish yourgrieving and then get into
living your life?
Speaker 2 (07:22):
So what was interesting was, for whatever
reason and I am super gratefulabout this, because I don't
really understand the reason butas I was drinking, I was
absolutely hating myself forwhat I was doing, because you're
so caught up in this web ofyou're rationalizing it to
yourself to try to make it makesense, but you know, you're
bullshitting yourself at thesame time and you're like it's
(07:44):
just this jumble of terriblethoughts.
And so, all the whilepretending I got it all under
control, and as I was gettingclose to the day that I quit,
like I knew I was lying tomyself, becoming more and more
obvious.
But the problem was I couldn'tstop and I realized.
So what happened was so my wifewas starting, my new wife was
starting to give me, like Iwould say, a hard time about her
, like you know she's, like I'mnot close to that, but I need
(08:07):
you to know that this is notgoing to be my life.
I remember thinking at the timeI don't know who I'm going to
choose, cause I I can't stop.
So like, if she decides she'sgoing to leave me, like I can't
stop drinking.
I've tried a million times, andwhich was also a horrible
feeling, and then what ended uphappening.
So the last kind of thing I wasclinging onto was that I'm a
great dad, you know, because Iwas super involved with my kids
(08:28):
and, like you know, I was likevery present.
I was never in like a you know,barfing my guts out drunk all
around them.
But you know, anyways, lastsort of branch of
rationalization that I wasclinging on to with the death
grip is I'm a great dad.
So on the day I quit, I wassupposed to take my daughter to.
We didn't do any of the thingsI promised her and she said
(08:49):
afterwards you know, I'm sittingthere drunk on the couch.
And she said afterwards I'mdisappointed in you.
It doesn't happen to greatparents, right?
Like your nine-year-old doesn'ttell your drunk ass that
they're disappointed in you ifyou're a great parent.
Like that's not how it works.
And so, for whatever reason,that just shattered the.
I just had this like moment ofclarity for some reason, and
I've never wanted to have adrink since.
(09:09):
So thank God.
Now the grief play, you know,manifested in other ways and
stuff, but like we don't need togo down that little rabbit hole
, but but yeah, so that creatingthat space, just man, it
allowed again, it allowed me togrieve.
It allowed me to startexploring like personal, like
listening to some podcasts,exploring personal development,
and I don't know just went downthis and really that whole
(09:30):
experience just altered thetrajectory of my life, you know,
in a pretty significant way.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And the bigger question is how did it affect
your kids?
You were going back and forthwith what you was processing,
while your kids had to gothrough that same grief and
moving on.
So how did that dynamic work?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So, you know, for me I thinkthis is something I talk about a
lot when my wife killed herself, my kids were six and five, six
and just turned five and Iactually thought if she had to
die, it's better that ithappened when they were young.
You know, it's the least.
Worst option is that ithappened when they're young
because, dude, I had no ideaabout the devastating impact of
(10:08):
childhood trauma at that age,like I just I thought I could
love them to heal.
It, honestly, was what Ithought.
It turns out.
Of course, I found out, I don'tknow.
It was basically the worst time, like it could happen, because
that's the age where you'reforming all your ideas of, like,
safe attachment and like allthis kind of stuff, right and so
, um, you know, so I did notappreciate the impact that it
had on them and I don't thinkthey did either.
(10:29):
And then with my daughter,that's what played up in her
life.
Man is just like this, again,emotionally different responses
to trauma.
You know of her feeling likeyou know, I'm not good enough or
worthy, because I was notworthy, I was not good enough
for my mom to stick around andkeep fighting for and now for my
other daughter who's still withus.
I mean, I've had to tell hertheir mother is dead and their
(10:49):
sister is dead.
She is doing the work, for sure, but she's just about to turn
20.
Like, she can't even like wrapher head around For her.
The trauma plays out in herlife in a lot of ways, but she's
not ready to address it yet.
So she's doing great, she'sgoing to school, but she's
always in like fight or flight.
She's got like she's got somelike anxiety and it's obviously
(11:10):
related to the horrible traumashe's experienced twice and we
talk about that regularly, butright now she's.
I'm not opening that can ofworms, right now I can't do it,
you know.
I mean it's her journey man.
You know, like she's, she knowswe're here.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Now, how old were your daughters again?
They were six and five.
Six and five.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Okay, so my daughter who passed away was the older
one.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
So she was six.
My younger daughter just turnedfive.
Okay, so now your daughter, theone that unfortunately passed
away.
How old was she when thathappened?
She's 19.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
She's 19.
Actually, she's going to turn20 next month.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Wow, so that was another tragedy that you had to
go through.
Wow, so that was anothertragedy that you had to go
through.
Then add to it that yourdaughter had to go through it as
well.
So how did the both of you getthrough that?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, I mean just with communication and love and
compassion.
I mean, the thing is, it's sucha vastly different experience
for both of us.
She doesn't even remember herbiological mom.
The trauma still lives withinher, like the loss, but she
doesn't actually have any realmemories of her mom, which is
like traumatic in and of itself.
And then with her sister, Ithink for both of us, like
losing my wife was brutal, butit does not even compare,
(12:26):
honestly, to losing my daughter.
You know, my wife's mentalhealth issues are so bad that
for so long that I had sort oflike I don't know, like I had
mentally prepared myself as muchas one can that it might end
this way in suicide.
Like it was so bad I mean it'sstill when the cops she was a
police officer too, but the copsshowed up though you know it's
a freaking, huge shock obviously, but in a way it was almost
(12:50):
like a relief in some waysbecause, number one, her pain
was over.
Her pain was so inconsolable.
Like it's just mental anguish.
But also it was kind of like arelief for me, or what seemed
like a relief at the time,because oh my god, this is what
I thought at the time I couldhave a normal life again, like
this is.
I'd learned a lot since then,but and then you know, from my
daughter I think the pain is wayworse.
(13:11):
It's just so visceral becauseshe's like of me.
I let my daughter I mean.
So I try to be very in an ageappropriate way, without placing
undue burden on my daughter.
You know I'm very open andcommunicative, with intention, I
would say, about like mygrieving experience and putting
words to it and stuff.
And you know, and I invite herto talk about it, we have a
wonderful relationship, but it'svery hard for her too.
(13:33):
She's afraid that if she opensthe vault everything's going to
just blow up.
You know, and that's a realfear of a lot of people who have
dealt with trauma or grieving.
It's like if I give into thislike wave of really intense
emotions, I'm falling into a pitand I'm never getting out, but
sometimes you just have to letit all out.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah, sometimes you have to let it all out just so
that you can get thatopportunity to start over.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, and it always the thing is, it always passes
right, like, so you don't fallinto a pit and never come out,
but it feels like you are goingto, and when you're barely
hanging on, like for me, like,and just to raise an example,
like me, I'm the breadwinner inthe family, you know, and so I
can't fall apart, man, Like youknow, I got to keep moving
forward somehow, even when Idon't care about any of it, and
(14:17):
you know, like, and I can barelyfunction.
Everybody's experience is superunique, but my point is is that
you know you have to face it orelse you'll never, ever move
through it.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Well, everyone grieves differently and there is
no right or wrong way.
It's just how you deal with itand then, of course, how you
deal with it as a family, sothat you can move forward in
life.
Yeah that's right.
So now I think you said she'sgoing to college.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah, she's in her first year of college.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
So, with the pressure that comes with the first year
of college, then you add thepressure that she's going
through because of the loss ofher sister.
How is she handling that?
I think she's doing all right.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, I mean she took a year off of college because
there's no way she could havegone back like last year, like
no way.
But yeah, she's doing okay,Like pretty normal college
experience, I think.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
So, now that you've gone through some of the healing
that you've processed, what areyour plans now?
Moving forward?
Do you have any particular onesetched in stone?
So what's going through yourmind in deciphering what you
need to do so that you can moveforward in life?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Oh, I haven't come to grips with it.
I mean I don't know how one can.
I don't know if I would frameit like that.
I mean I think it's that I'mmoving through the experience
with as much intention andpurpose as I can.
But having said that, like my,in this really bizarre way, my,
the experience of losing my wifeand the aftermath of that, like
I was saying, set my life on avery different path, which
(16:00):
actually led to me developing awhole hell of a lot of tools,
skills.
A lot of times, the best youcan do is just not do things to
make it worse, and there's aninfinite number of things you
(16:24):
can do to make it worse, andthey can all seem incredibly
tempting right in that moment.
But for me, plans wise, I mean,yeah, again, I'm writing a book
about grief romance.
A couple of years ago I started.
I've never been on TikTok before, but I started TikTok because
I've been in front of a camera afair amount, no, but I'm just
going to make some videos aboutgrief and stuff.
And it's crazy what's happened.
I mean they've got like 40million views.
I've had five people actuallyreach out to me saying I was
(16:46):
about to kill myself and Idecided to keep fighting because
of something I saw, orsomething that resonated with
them in one of the videos I made.
So I'm writing a book aboutgrief for men.
I'm publishing on Substack as Iwrite, I just want to get it in
many people's hands, and sothat seems to be being called
(17:07):
man down.
I want to continue to find waysto make an impact in this space
, but at the same time, I wantto be cautious about not being
surrounded by other people'sgrief all day long.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, one of the good things that you are doing right
now is that you are talkingabout it.
Sometimes, just having thatability to talk about it can
relieve some of that stress sothat you can cope some.
Oh yeah, and then you add to itthat you're writing a book to
help people.
So that's at least getting someof that emotions out for you.
(17:38):
There's no instantgratification on writing a book
or doing a blog, but the onething that you can know is that
you are helping people in manydifferent ways.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah, that's a good thing you're doing, so you just
got to keep, as they say, onefoot in front of the other and
keep moving forward.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
And yeah, in some days, I thinktoo is like I was talking to
somebody about this the otherday and they were saying that
people have this idea of whatmoving forward means, you know.
And so I was talking tosomebody who lost somebody
really close and he's like, yeah, some days I take it feels like
I take two steps forward, andother days I take three steps
back, and I'm like what, if youstop looking at it like that,
(18:21):
that's not actually taking astep forward, taking a step back
, it's just grief, man, somedays are great and some days
totally suck, like that's.
You know, that doesn't meanyou're doing something wrong or
that you're regressing.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
It's the process.
They just think that if theydon't have a good day every day,
they think that they're fallingbackwards, and they're not.
It's just getting through thatemotional crisis at that point
in time, so that way they canmove forward.
Some Just have to take it dayby day, step by step, so that
each day hopefully gets better.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
The main thing is to try and be as positive as we can
, because when it comes tomental health, we can talk
ourselves into having a very badday.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
When that happens, you just have to find a way to
talk yourself out of that badday so that you can turn it
around, so that at least you'rehaving a better day by digging
yourself out of what could havebeen a whole lot worse.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
And yeah, I think you just said that really, really
well.
I just wrote a chapter in abook just the other day about
this, about focusing on what youcan control, and one of the
things you can control is thewords that you use to describe
your experience.
So the amount of people, man,who have said to me or commented
on my TikTok to say things likeyou know, I lost my kid, I'm
permanently broken, okay, well,you're speaking that truth into
(19:48):
existence, right so?
Or like the other things peoplesay, like a lot well intention,
obviously, but I mean like, oh,you know, no parent should have
to lose a child, or that's sounfair.
Parents lose kids all the time,unfortunately.
That's so true, it's a part ofthe human condition and it's not
about fairness.
It's about the fact that tolive like some semblance of a
(20:10):
meaningful and peaceful life,you have to be able to accept
that anything can happen toanyone at any time.
That's right.
But if you start walking aroundlabeling that happens to you
like that is unfair, you're notstrengthening yourself, you know
, fortifying yourself at all.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, that's so true.
Unfortunately, life issometimes just not fair to us.
Yeah, so what we have to do isfind a way to justify things so
that we can keep moving forwardand taking steps to a better
path, to feeling better aboutyourself and the situation that
you find yourself in Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
I'll accept, yeah, and yeah, I totally agree.
So I think we're like there's,we're immensely powerful, like
in in.
So the other thing, too, is,you know, one of the things I'm
doing right now is somaticexperiencing therapy, which is
so incredibly helpful andinteresting, but it's really
about the idea that.
So, for example, I'm almost toothis is more like I'm not
(21:09):
saying this as an arrogant way,it's actually quite the opposite
, it's actually a hindrance, butsometimes I feel like I'm too
knowledgeable about this for myown good.
So when I go to see a therapistor something like they're not
telling me anything I don'talready know, right?
So I got to the point where Iwas, you know, I stopped seeing
a therapist and my, my wife waslike you know, I really think
you should see a therapist, andI'm like I don't want to talk
about this anymore, though Like,like to a therapist, I
(21:29):
understand what's happening, butI know I need to continue
healing, like I know that forsure, anyways, for sure, anyways
.
I went down this rabbit hole andI came across a podcast on
something called somaticexperiencing, which is learning
how to developing your capacityto fully experience being human.
(21:50):
So the idea is that when youhave a, like I said, you get
triggered or some kind of traumaresponse.
It starts in your body right,and so somatic experiencing is
really about literally beingpresent.
But they teach you like theyteach you going through this
therapy, guide you to how to befully present and really
understand the sensations andwhat's happening in your body
and to be able to describe them,put words to them.
It is wild how quickly amassive anxiety attack, for
(22:14):
example, can just go away.
It's freaking nuts.
And then after that, theinsights you have are just
incredible.
I think for me, like I've beenreally committed to just turning
over every stone on the path tohealing.
So you know, I've experimentedwith psychedelics, like all
kinds of different things.
You know, because it's a reallycurious person and I don't do
anything in moderation, I gooverboard on everything.
So I had to actually like,after Chloe died it was like two
(22:36):
months later I'm like I'm goingto write a book on grief and
blah, blah, blah.
And then I started to write itand I realized I'm a wreck and I
don't know jack about grief andI need to experience this a lot
more to be in a position to beable to actually write about it.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, it's a situation of where sometimes you
think you know everything, butyou don't yeah, pretty exactly.
And then sometimes you don'tthink you know everything, but
you don't.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, pretty exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And then sometimes you don't think you know, but
you do.
Yeah, it's just living, it'sjust embracing what you can,
kicking out the trash that youdon't need around you and
hopefully building a situationto where it's tolerable and you
can keep moving forward.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
(23:20):
So in closing, what would youlike to tell people that might
be going through some similarsituations or have been it, but
still haven't coped yet?
What would you tell them, justso that they can kind of
understand that it's not the endof the world.
They can still survive andthrive and have a good life.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah, I mean, I think what I would tell them is a few
things.
Like grief is an intenselypersonal experience there's no
playbook or program for it thatthe only way to heal is to face
what seems unfaceable, to justsit with the misery, you know,
and knowing that it won't killyou.
But it's the only way to heal.
And I think too, like I'mreally passionate about this
(24:04):
idea of like, understandingwhat's in your control and using
words to the incredible powerof the words we use, the words,
languages, metaphor we use.
They don't describe our reality, they define it.
So be really intentional aboutthe things that you say.
Like, again, I'm permanentlybroken, I'm this, I'm that, you
know, like.
So those are some of the thingsI think are really important to
(24:25):
get across to people.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah, I agree, Because you can talk yourself
into being as depressed or ashappy as you want to be.
You've just got to get thatcorrect mindset.
It's like the guy that goes outevery day and if he's
constantly complaining, he'sconstantly talking.
He's actually just talkinghimself into worse things,
Whereas if he looks at things,realizes that stuff happens in
(24:50):
this world, you just deal withit.
Then the next day hopefully isa little bit better and you just
keep moving upward and justkeep building to what you
hopefully can be down the road.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know and I think that'salso important, like I always
tell people that one of thethings that's in our control is
how we choose to look at things.
So I can I'm very typicallyquite good at positively
reframing things Like I couldsay, okay, you know what I could
feel ripped off for the rest ofmy life, that I didn't get to
spend 70 years on this earthwith Chloe.
Or I could be grateful that Ihad 19 years with her, because
(25:22):
it's better than zero.
I can do that a lot of the time,but when I'm crushed by a wave
of grief, I can't do that inthat moment.
It's too painful, I miss hertoo badly.
The thing is I know that whenit passes I will be able to do
it again, like to reframe it andfeel grateful again.
So you know, even the knowledgethat it's possible for me to
(25:47):
own how I think about it gets methrough the moments when I
can't.
You know, it's almost like ananchor of some sort or a life,
like a life buoy to hold on to.
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Absolutely.
Great thoughts.
Well, this has been great Greatconversation, great information
.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on today.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Absolutely Enjoyed being here, nice, to meet you,
and thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
The pleasure's all mine.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
(26:38):
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:28):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is JasonMcKenzie.
He's here to share a profoundmoment of reckoning.
After losing his wife tosuicide and his daughter to
mental health struggles, hefaced a turning point four years
later.
A heavy day of drinking led toa heart-wrenching wake-up call
(01:16):
from his nine-year-old daughter,who voiced her disappointment
in him.
In that moment, he saw a manconsumed by fear, doubt and
insecurity To become the strong,courageous and wise father his
daughter respected.
He knew he had to overcome andconfront his inner demons.
He's here to tell hisheart-wrenching story with us
(01:37):
and give us insight on hiscontinuous work to overcome his
grief.
He has tremendous insights anda lot of great information.
It's a true pleasure to havehim join us today.
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
My pleasure.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yes, mine as well, If you could give us an overview
on what you do.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, I think what got us into contact with each
other was.
So I own a couple businesses.
One is a leadership andmanagement consulting company so
we do executive coaching,leadership training et cetera,
and the other one is we run amastermind group for dads who
own businesses so we teach themhow to be skills, to be better
husbands and father and businessowners and really fun,
uplifting work.
Actually, why we're talking isbecause I lost my wife to
(02:17):
suicide and my daughter to a caraccident.
It was really a result of hermother's suicide.
My daughter was just.
It just shattered her soul andat the end of her life she was
19, but she was dealing withthis the same trauma-induced
mental health issues as her momand ended up dying just over two
years ago.
Drinking and driving.
She almost killed she wasdriving.
She almost killed four otherpeople.
Just a freaking disaster.
(02:38):
I just been talking a lot aboutgrief and writing a book about
grief and yeah, that's me talk alot about grief and write a
book about grief and yeah,that's me.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Wow, that must be just so hard to deal with.
With that said, needless to say, it affects the family, affects
you.
How did you deal with it?
Can you give us a little bit ofinsight on what you went
through, going through thesetragedies?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
oh yeah, I mean the, the mental health aspect.
I mean I think like I feel likea grief, you know, and the
issues that drives.
I mean I've been like I've beenan addict, you know, after my
wife's suicide and very littleawareness of, you know, the
relationship between trauma andmental health.
You know, my wife was reallyinteresting, actually she was a
(03:20):
police officer.
She suffered really badchildhood sexual abuse and the
interesting thing is a lot ofpeople who have adverse
childhood experiences are calledto these helping professions,
right.
So they sometimes they don'teven really realize it, you know
, and but that makes them moresusceptible to trauma, so, uh.
So the five years leading up tomy wife's uh death were just
(03:40):
unbelievable, like you knowpsych w psych wards, homeless
shelters, rehab, like just crazystuff.
And you know, what wasfascinating in a horrifying way
was how our medical systempathologized her experience to
the point of just basicallydrugging her into compliance and
no one ever said, hey, whathappened to you?
(04:01):
It was a long time afterwardswhere I was talking to a
therapist friend of mine who hasbeen working the the mental
health space forever and I wastalking about this experience
and she goes.
Cindy wasn't bipolar becauseshe had a chemical imbalance.
She was having emotionallydriven responses to trauma and
invalidating experiences, andshe explained to me how that all
worked and it was like man,that's pretty eye-opening,
(04:22):
pretty eye-opening experience.
Yeah, I mean so.
Anyways, my point to that wasyou know, I'm not like a mental
health expert by any stretch ofthe imagination, but I used to
do a podcast called MentalHealth Warriors.
I run a community for mendealing with mental health
issues.
I'm not doing that now, butI've actually been thinking
about doing it again.
Interestingly, in thatcommunity there was a couple
hundred guys in there at onepoint and I would always talk to
the guys that came in and everysingle one had trauma when they
(04:46):
were basically a kid.
Something terrible happened tothem when they were a kid.
Now they're in their 40s, 30s,40s, 50s, so many of them don't
see the thread that runs throughtheir whole life because it
happened all that time ago.
What does that have to do withme being in my 50s and being an
alcoholic or being likedepressed or being like full on
rage?
You know?
Just fascinating.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah, I mean, if you stop and think about it, we, as
we grow up, we'll have somethinghappen to us and then we'll
completely push it down in thesurface where it's not seen.
And then five, 10, 15, 20 yearslater, whatever that timeframe
may be, all of a sudden it justresurfaces.
It can be from a smell, it canbe from a song or anything that
(05:29):
opens that trauma up, and thenyou're back into it again.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Absolutely, Absolutely right.
You know what for me like.
So I had a when I, during mywife's you know, I mean trying
to like that whole situation wasjust a frigging nightmare,
trying to raise two kids and allthis stuff and keep her alive.
And so during that time Ideveloped a huge drinking
problem.
Not even intentionally, but forme, being a typical guy, all I
wanted people to see like whatwas important for me to project
(05:56):
to the world was that I had myshit together.
No one can have their shittogether in a situation like
that.
It was a complete disaster.
Every day I'm not going to talkabout all the terrible things
that are going on in my head andheart so I drank to make them
go away without even thinkingabout it, Like it wasn't, like
that was not an intentionalstrategy.
And then afterwards, after mywife died, I drank every day, a
(06:18):
lot every day for four and ahalf years and I got remarried
and everything and you know, andfinally had like my you know,
quote rock bottom moment orwhatever, and about six months
later I started to grieve mywife's death.
So it was like five years aftershe died.
Now that process.
I didn't even know what washappening to me.
I thought I was going crazy,actually.
And my wife said you'regrieving, you freaking idiot?
Like, oh god, maybe I am, butwhat I realized afterwards is it
(06:43):
never occurred to me, like noteven a single time, that I was
drinking to numb the pain for mywife's death, Because I thought
I had put it behind me,whatever that even means, Like
it never crossed my mind.
And I was like afterwards I waslike, oh my God, like I'm not a
total idiot.
You know, like God, there mustbe so many other people that are
in this same situation, youknow.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
So how did you get away from that?
What did you use for motivationto change your path?
Did you have an idea or a planto get away from that, so that
you could actually finish yourgrieving and then get into
living your life?
Speaker 2 (07:22):
So what was interesting was, for whatever
reason and I am super gratefulabout this, because I don't
really understand the reason butas I was drinking, I was
absolutely hating myself forwhat I was doing, because you're
so caught up in this web ofyou're rationalizing it to
yourself to try to make it makesense, but you know, you're
bullshitting yourself at thesame time and you're like it's
(07:44):
just this jumble of terriblethoughts.
And so, all the whilepretending I got it all under
control, and as I was gettingclose to the day that I quit,
like I knew I was lying tomyself, becoming more and more
obvious.
But the problem was I couldn'tstop and I realized.
So what happened was so my wifewas starting, my new wife was
starting to give me, like Iwould say, a hard time about her
, like you know she's, like I'mnot close to that, but I need
(08:07):
you to know that this is notgoing to be my life.
I remember thinking at the timeI don't know who I'm going to
choose, cause I I can't stop.
So like, if she decides she'sgoing to leave me, like I can't
stop drinking.
I've tried a million times, andwhich was also a horrible
feeling, and then what ended uphappening.
So the last kind of thing I wasclinging onto was that I'm a
great dad, you know, because Iwas super involved with my kids
(08:28):
and, like you know, I was likevery present.
I was never in like a you know,barfing my guts out drunk all
around them.
But you know, anyways, lastsort of branch of
rationalization that I wasclinging on to with the death
grip is I'm a great dad.
So on the day I quit, I wassupposed to take my daughter to.
We didn't do any of the thingsI promised her and she said
(08:49):
afterwards you know, I'm sittingthere drunk on the couch.
And she said afterwards I'mdisappointed in you.
It doesn't happen to greatparents, right?
Like your nine-year-old doesn'ttell your drunk ass that
they're disappointed in you ifyou're a great parent.
Like that's not how it works.
And so, for whatever reason,that just shattered the.
I just had this like moment ofclarity for some reason, and
I've never wanted to have adrink since.
(09:09):
So thank God.
Now the grief play, you know,manifested in other ways and
stuff, but like we don't need togo down that little rabbit hole
, but but yeah, so that creatingthat space, just man, it
allowed again, it allowed me togrieve.
It allowed me to startexploring like personal, like
listening to some podcasts,exploring personal development,
and I don't know just went downthis and really that whole
(09:30):
experience just altered thetrajectory of my life, you know,
in a pretty significant way.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And the bigger question is how did it affect
your kids?
You were going back and forthwith what you was processing,
while your kids had to gothrough that same grief and
moving on.
So how did that dynamic work?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So, you know, for me I thinkthis is something I talk about a
lot when my wife killed herself, my kids were six and five, six
and just turned five and Iactually thought if she had to
die, it's better that ithappened when they were young.
You know, it's the least.
Worst option is that ithappened when they're young
because, dude, I had no ideaabout the devastating impact of
(10:08):
childhood trauma at that age,like I just I thought I could
love them to heal.
It, honestly, was what Ithought.
It turns out.
Of course, I found out, I don'tknow.
It was basically the worst time, like it could happen, because
that's the age where you'reforming all your ideas of, like,
safe attachment and like allthis kind of stuff, right and so
, um, you know, so I did notappreciate the impact that it
had on them and I don't thinkthey did either.
(10:29):
And then with my daughter,that's what played up in her
life.
Man is just like this, again,emotionally different responses
to trauma.
You know of her feeling likeyou know, I'm not good enough or
worthy, because I was notworthy, I was not good enough
for my mom to stick around andkeep fighting for and now for my
other daughter who's still withus.
I mean, I've had to tell hertheir mother is dead and their
(10:49):
sister is dead.
She is doing the work, for sure, but she's just about to turn
20.
Like, she can't even like wrapher head around For her.
The trauma plays out in herlife in a lot of ways, but she's
not ready to address it yet.
So she's doing great, she'sgoing to school, but she's
always in like fight or flight.
She's got like she's got somelike anxiety and it's obviously
(11:10):
related to the horrible traumashe's experienced twice and we
talk about that regularly, butright now she's.
I'm not opening that can ofworms, right now I can't do it,
you know.
I mean it's her journey man.
You know, like she's, she knowswe're here.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Now, how old were your daughters again?
They were six and five.
Six and five.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Okay, so my daughter who passed away was the older
one.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
So she was six.
My younger daughter just turnedfive.
Okay, so now your daughter, theone that unfortunately passed
away.
How old was she when thathappened?
She's 19.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
She's 19.
Actually, she's going to turn20 next month.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Wow, so that was another tragedy that you had to
go through.
Wow, so that was anothertragedy that you had to go
through.
Then add to it that yourdaughter had to go through it as
well.
So how did the both of you getthrough that?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, I mean just with communication and love and
compassion.
I mean, the thing is, it's sucha vastly different experience
for both of us.
She doesn't even remember herbiological mom.
The trauma still lives withinher, like the loss, but she
doesn't actually have any realmemories of her mom, which is
like traumatic in and of itself.
And then with her sister, Ithink for both of us, like
losing my wife was brutal, butit does not even compare,
(12:26):
honestly, to losing my daughter.
You know, my wife's mentalhealth issues are so bad that
for so long that I had sort oflike I don't know, like I had
mentally prepared myself as muchas one can that it might end
this way in suicide.
Like it was so bad I mean it'sstill when the cops she was a
police officer too, but the copsshowed up though you know it's
a freaking, huge shock obviously, but in a way it was almost
(12:50):
like a relief in some waysbecause, number one, her pain
was over.
Her pain was so inconsolable.
Like it's just mental anguish.
But also it was kind of like arelief for me, or what seemed
like a relief at the time,because oh my god, this is what
I thought at the time I couldhave a normal life again, like
this is.
I'd learned a lot since then,but and then you know, from my
daughter I think the pain is wayworse.
(13:11):
It's just so visceral becauseshe's like of me.
I let my daughter I mean.
So I try to be very in an ageappropriate way, without placing
undue burden on my daughter.
You know I'm very open andcommunicative, with intention, I
would say, about like mygrieving experience and putting
words to it and stuff.
And you know, and I invite herto talk about it, we have a
wonderful relationship, but it'svery hard for her too.
(13:33):
She's afraid that if she opensthe vault everything's going to
just blow up.
You know, and that's a realfear of a lot of people who have
dealt with trauma or grieving.
It's like if I give into thislike wave of really intense
emotions, I'm falling into a pitand I'm never getting out, but
sometimes you just have to letit all out.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah, sometimes you have to let it all out just so
that you can get thatopportunity to start over.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, and it always the thing is, it always passes
right, like, so you don't fallinto a pit and never come out,
but it feels like you are goingto, and when you're barely
hanging on, like for me, like,and just to raise an example,
like me, I'm the breadwinner inthe family, you know, and so I
can't fall apart, man, Like youknow, I got to keep moving
forward somehow, even when Idon't care about any of it, and
(14:17):
you know, like, and I can barelyfunction.
Everybody's experience is superunique, but my point is is that
you know you have to face it orelse you'll never, ever move
through it.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Well, everyone grieves differently and there is
no right or wrong way.
It's just how you deal with itand then, of course, how you
deal with it as a family, sothat you can move forward in
life.
Yeah that's right.
So now I think you said she'sgoing to college.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah, she's in her first year of college.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
So, with the pressure that comes with the first year
of college, then you add thepressure that she's going
through because of the loss ofher sister.
How is she handling that?
I think she's doing all right.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, I mean she took a year off of college because
there's no way she could havegone back like last year, like
no way.
But yeah, she's doing okay,Like pretty normal college
experience, I think.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
So, now that you've gone through some of the healing
that you've processed, what areyour plans now?
Moving forward?
Do you have any particular onesetched in stone?
So what's going through yourmind in deciphering what you
need to do so that you can moveforward in life?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Oh, I haven't come to grips with it.
I mean I don't know how one can.
I don't know if I would frameit like that.
I mean I think it's that I'mmoving through the experience
with as much intention andpurpose as I can.
But having said that, like my,in this really bizarre way, my,
the experience of losing my wifeand the aftermath of that, like
I was saying, set my life on avery different path, which
(16:00):
actually led to me developing awhole hell of a lot of tools,
skills.
A lot of times, the best youcan do is just not do things to
make it worse, and there's aninfinite number of things you
(16:24):
can do to make it worse, andthey can all seem incredibly
tempting right in that moment.
But for me, plans wise, I mean,yeah, again, I'm writing a book
about grief romance.
A couple of years ago I started.
I've never been on TikTok before, but I started TikTok because
I've been in front of a camera afair amount, no, but I'm just
going to make some videos aboutgrief and stuff.
And it's crazy what's happened.
I mean they've got like 40million views.
I've had five people actuallyreach out to me saying I was
(16:46):
about to kill myself and Idecided to keep fighting because
of something I saw, orsomething that resonated with
them in one of the videos I made.
So I'm writing a book aboutgrief for men.
I'm publishing on Substack as Iwrite, I just want to get it in
many people's hands, and sothat seems to be being called
(17:07):
man down.
I want to continue to find waysto make an impact in this space
, but at the same time, I wantto be cautious about not being
surrounded by other people'sgrief all day long.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, one of the good things that you are doing right
now is that you are talkingabout it.
Sometimes, just having thatability to talk about it can
relieve some of that stress sothat you can cope some.
Oh yeah, and then you add to itthat you're writing a book to
help people.
So that's at least getting someof that emotions out for you.
(17:38):
There's no instantgratification on writing a book
or doing a blog, but the onething that you can know is that
you are helping people in manydifferent ways.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah, that's a good thing you're doing, so you just
got to keep, as they say, onefoot in front of the other and
keep moving forward.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
And yeah, in some days, I thinktoo is like I was talking to
somebody about this the otherday and they were saying that
people have this idea of whatmoving forward means, you know.
And so I was talking tosomebody who lost somebody
really close and he's like, yeah, some days I take it feels like
I take two steps forward, andother days I take three steps
back, and I'm like what, if youstop looking at it like that,
(18:21):
that's not actually taking astep forward, taking a step back
, it's just grief, man, somedays are great and some days
totally suck, like that's.
You know, that doesn't meanyou're doing something wrong or
that you're regressing.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
It's the process.
They just think that if theydon't have a good day every day,
they think that they're fallingbackwards, and they're not.
It's just getting through thatemotional crisis at that point
in time, so that way they canmove forward.
Some Just have to take it dayby day, step by step, so that
each day hopefully gets better.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
The main thing is to try and be as positive as we can
, because when it comes tomental health, we can talk
ourselves into having a very badday.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
When that happens, you just have to find a way to
talk yourself out of that badday so that you can turn it
around, so that at least you'rehaving a better day by digging
yourself out of what could havebeen a whole lot worse.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
And yeah, I think you just said that really, really
well.
I just wrote a chapter in abook just the other day about
this, about focusing on what youcan control, and one of the
things you can control is thewords that you use to describe
your experience.
So the amount of people, man,who have said to me or commented
on my TikTok to say things likeyou know, I lost my kid, I'm
permanently broken, okay, well,you're speaking that truth into
(19:48):
existence, right so?
Or like the other things peoplesay, like a lot well intention,
obviously, but I mean like, oh,you know, no parent should have
to lose a child, or that's sounfair.
Parents lose kids all the time,unfortunately.
That's so true, it's a part ofthe human condition and it's not
about fairness.
It's about the fact that tolive like some semblance of a
(20:10):
meaningful and peaceful life,you have to be able to accept
that anything can happen toanyone at any time.
That's right.
But if you start walking aroundlabeling that happens to you
like that is unfair, you're notstrengthening yourself, you know
, fortifying yourself at all.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, that's so true.
Unfortunately, life issometimes just not fair to us.
Yeah, so what we have to do isfind a way to justify things so
that we can keep moving forwardand taking steps to a better
path, to feeling better aboutyourself and the situation that
you find yourself in Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
I'll accept, yeah, and yeah, I totally agree.
So I think we're like there's,we're immensely powerful, like
in in.
So the other thing, too, is,you know, one of the things I'm
doing right now is somaticexperiencing therapy, which is
so incredibly helpful andinteresting, but it's really
about the idea that.
So, for example, I'm almost toothis is more like I'm not
(21:09):
saying this as an arrogant way,it's actually quite the opposite
, it's actually a hindrance, butsometimes I feel like I'm too
knowledgeable about this for myown good.
So when I go to see a therapistor something like they're not
telling me anything I don'talready know, right?
So I got to the point where Iwas, you know, I stopped seeing
a therapist and my, my wife waslike you know, I really think
you should see a therapist, andI'm like I don't want to talk
about this anymore, though Like,like to a therapist, I
(21:29):
understand what's happening, butI know I need to continue
healing, like I know that forsure, anyways, for sure, anyways
.
I went down this rabbit hole andI came across a podcast on
something called somaticexperiencing, which is learning
how to developing your capacityto fully experience being human.
(21:50):
So the idea is that when youhave a, like I said, you get
triggered or some kind of traumaresponse.
It starts in your body right,and so somatic experiencing is
really about literally beingpresent.
But they teach you like theyteach you going through this
therapy, guide you to how to befully present and really
understand the sensations andwhat's happening in your body
and to be able to describe them,put words to them.
It is wild how quickly amassive anxiety attack, for
(22:14):
example, can just go away.
It's freaking nuts.
And then after that, theinsights you have are just
incredible.
I think for me, like I've beenreally committed to just turning
over every stone on the path tohealing.
So you know, I've experimentedwith psychedelics, like all
kinds of different things.
You know, because it's a reallycurious person and I don't do
anything in moderation, I gooverboard on everything.
So I had to actually like,after Chloe died it was like two
(22:36):
months later I'm like I'm goingto write a book on grief and
blah, blah, blah.
And then I started to write itand I realized I'm a wreck and I
don't know jack about grief andI need to experience this a lot
more to be in a position to beable to actually write about it.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, it's a situation of where sometimes you
think you know everything, butyou don't yeah, pretty exactly.
And then sometimes you don'tthink you know everything, but
you don't.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, pretty exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And then sometimes you don't think you know, but
you do.
Yeah, it's just living, it'sjust embracing what you can,
kicking out the trash that youdon't need around you and
hopefully building a situationto where it's tolerable and you
can keep moving forward.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
(23:20):
So in closing, what would youlike to tell people that might
be going through some similarsituations or have been it, but
still haven't coped yet?
What would you tell them, justso that they can kind of
understand that it's not the endof the world.
They can still survive andthrive and have a good life.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah, I mean, I think what I would tell them is a few
things.
Like grief is an intenselypersonal experience there's no
playbook or program for it thatthe only way to heal is to face
what seems unfaceable, to justsit with the misery, you know,
and knowing that it won't killyou.
But it's the only way to heal.
And I think too, like I'mreally passionate about this
(24:04):
idea of like, understandingwhat's in your control and using
words to the incredible powerof the words we use, the words,
languages, metaphor we use.
They don't describe our reality, they define it.
So be really intentional aboutthe things that you say.
Like, again, I'm permanentlybroken, I'm this, I'm that, you
know, like.
So those are some of the thingsI think are really important to
(24:25):
get across to people.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah, I agree, Because you can talk yourself
into being as depressed or ashappy as you want to be.
You've just got to get thatcorrect mindset.
It's like the guy that goes outevery day and if he's
constantly complaining, he'sconstantly talking.
He's actually just talkinghimself into worse things,
Whereas if he looks at things,realizes that stuff happens in
(24:50):
this world, you just deal withit.
Then the next day hopefully isa little bit better and you just
keep moving upward and justkeep building to what you
hopefully can be down the road.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know and I think that'salso important, like I always
tell people that one of thethings that's in our control is
how we choose to look at things.
So I can I'm very typicallyquite good at positively
reframing things Like I couldsay, okay, you know what I could
feel ripped off for the rest ofmy life, that I didn't get to
spend 70 years on this earthwith Chloe.
Or I could be grateful that Ihad 19 years with her, because
(25:22):
it's better than zero.
I can do that a lot of the time,but when I'm crushed by a wave
of grief, I can't do that inthat moment.
It's too painful, I miss hertoo badly.
The thing is I know that whenit passes I will be able to do
it again, like to reframe it andfeel grateful again.
So you know, even the knowledgethat it's possible for me to
(25:47):
own how I think about it gets methrough the moments when I
can't.
You know, it's almost like ananchor of some sort or a life,
like a life buoy to hold on to.
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Absolutely.
Great thoughts.
Well, this has been great Greatconversation, great information
.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on today.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Absolutely Enjoyed being here, nice, to meet you,
and thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
The pleasure's all mine.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
(26:38):
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
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