May 16, 2025 • 28 mins
Justin Volpe shares his journey from being diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder and incarcerated to becoming a certified recovery peer specialist who has trained over 3,500 police officers in crisis intervention.
His story demonstrates how individuals with lived experience can transform systems and save lives by bridging gaps between law enforcement, courts, and treatment providers.
• Diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder in his early 20s after struggling with substance abuse
• Released from jail through Miami's Jail Diversion Program, which provides support, therapy, and resources
• Became a peer specialist within 8 months of incarceration, helping others navigate the system
• Worked for 14 years getting thousands of people out of incarceration and connecting them to services
• Describes his role as a "bridger" between systems that don't typically communicate with each other
• Trained over 3,500 police officers in Crisis Intervention Team (CIT) approaches
• Featured in documentaries "The Definition of Insanity" and Ken Burns' "Hiding in Plain Sight"
• Now works nationally with state behavioral health teams at NASMHPD
• Advocates for including people with lived experience at policy and planning tables
• Emphasizes that recovery is possible: "I was written off and told I'd die on the street"
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:53):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs, the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is JustinVolpe.
He's a certified recovery peerspecialist and a shining example
of how individuals living withmental illness can play a vital
role in collaborating with lawenforcement, service providers
(01:15):
and anyone in need of support.
Justin has trained over 2,500police officers through a crisis
intervention team program andcontinues to make a national
impact by helping others.
He's here to share hisinspiring story and wealth of
knowledge.
It's an honor to have him withus today.
Thanks for coming on.
(01:36):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Oh, it's my pleasure.
You're a mental health advocate.
Can you tell us what led youdown this path?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
You're a mental health advocate.
Can you tell us what led youdown this path?
You know, my own diagnosis whenI was 22 or 23 years old really
shaped that journey to want togive back to the community and
help other people.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah, it's always great to help others.
Can you give the listeners alittle of your background so
they can understand what led tothis path that you're doing, so
they can?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
understand what led to this path that you're doing.
Yeah, absolutely, Tony.
I live in Miami, Florida, andat 22 or 23 years old, I was
struggling with substance useand alcohol issues.
I was put into a rehab and Ithought that that was my problem
.
But when I stayed clean off thedrugs and alcohol, those
problems persisted and it endedup being a diagnosis of what is
(02:27):
now considered schizoaffectivedisorder.
I was hearing voices, I wasseeing things that weren't there
all in all, while working andtrying to maintain my daily life
.
This disorder led to a lot ofturbulent times in my life and
ended up being incarcerated at23 years old in 2007 in the
(02:49):
Miami-Dade County Jail.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
During your time of incarceration, was there a
pivotal event or experience thatoccurred which fundamentally
altered your life?
Altered your life, compellingyou to recognize the necessity
of personal improvement andinspiring you to leverage the
insights and knowledge youacquired to positively impact
(03:12):
the lives of others.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Well, you know something about some mental
health diagnosis is everybodyelse seems to know that there's
an issue, but to know insidethat something's not adding up
takes a level of awareness thatI did not have at the time.
But it wasn't until I went intothe judicial system.
(03:33):
I was released from court, fromjail, through a court program
to help people with mentalhealth and co-occurring
disorders called the JailDiversion Program.
That's where I got introducedto Judge Leifman's program.
After I got released into thisoutpatient treatment program, I
was given the support I neededto get back on my feet, given
(03:55):
education, a lot of differenttypes of therapy and access to
resources I didn't have before.
After I started to take thisrecovery journey, I started to
feel better and then, withineight months of being
incarcerated, I was given anopportunity to become a peer
specialist.
(04:15):
A peer specialist is somebodywith lived experience in the
jail diversion program.
So as soon as I got it andunderstood what I had to do to
maintain, I was given theopportunity to give service to
others being released from thejustice system, and I did that
for 14 years.
Tony and I got thousands ofpeople out of incarceration to
(04:36):
help them get back on their feetand stay out of places like the
streets and the hospitals andthe jails by trying things a
different way.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Everyone has their own unique style when it comes
to helping others.
Some lean towards a moreaggressive approach, others take
a gentler, more passive tack,and then there's everything in
between.
What was your style like?
How did you go about supportingthose who needed your help, and
how does your help affect them?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Well, a peer specialist and a peer role is
really a mutual understandingthat you have with the people
that you're working with.
So the unique style that Ireally had to do was become a
bridger in the community.
So many different people don'ttalk to each other.
The jails and the courts don'ttalk to the treatment providers,
they don't talk to the housingproviders, they don't talk to
transportation and a peerspecialist.
(05:32):
My role was to really geteverybody on the same page and
hustle out there on the streetevery day.
Because I didn't work in theoffice, I was on the street
hustling for people to keep themout of these systems, and some
of that was having open lines ofcommunication, showing up for
people to doctor's appointments,bringing them to court, getting
them clothes, getting them food, getting them transportation
(05:56):
all in their wellness journey toactually avoid a justice system
where that would not help getthem better.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Wow, that's a great description of what you do.
I think that's going to help alot of people understand it.
Now, what about CIT training?
Do you do anything like that tohelp police navigate situations
?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, thanks for mentioning that.
I do CIT training.
I've trained over 3,500 policeofficers in Miami-Dade County
and that training would helpkeep somebody out of the justice
system altogether at first.
So if a police officer receivedthat training, they should, if
they spot somebody in crisis, beable to de-escalate them and
(06:37):
not arrest them, and get them tothe proper resources if needed.
That's not a jail cell.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yeah, that's really really good.
Now, what about thecommunication centers?
When we think of firstresponders, we always think
about police.
Yet before the police get there, you've got 911.
Do you do any work with them sothey can get the information
needed to hopefully send aCIT-trained officer to the scene
(07:06):
?
Have you worked with the 911operators?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
A little bit.
I've done some training withthe mobile crisis teams that
would actually respond otherthan police if a call comes into
a crisis line, and we've donesome training with 911 operators
so they can help distinguish acall that may be someone in
crisis, so they know the kind ofvibe or what that feels like.
(07:30):
Because without that trainingthey may not understand the
difference between if an actualcrime is happening or if
somebody is experiencing acrisis.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Okay, have you ever been involved in a crisis
situation where you've witnessedand assisted both the police in
managing the scene and theindividual in need?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I have been involved in a lot of crisis situations in
the community, like you justexplained, and my biggest thing
is communication, making surethe person being served needs
are met and that they'reunderstood completely, as well
as the police, so kind of like abridger in between in that
relationship to make sureeverything's good and working
smoothly to help the person inneed.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Okay, suppose you arrive at a scene where someone
has experienced psychosis andfacing serious challenges.
The responding police officerhasn't received CIT training,
yet you're there to assist.
What would your approach be?
Police officers often have onlyseconds to react to a situation
, and the goal is to prevent itfrom escalating into something
(08:35):
harmful for anyone involved.
How would you de-escalate thesituation, help the officer
understand what you're doing,yet supporting the person in
crisis so that, ideally, thingsresolve peacefully and don't
take a turn for the worse?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
You know, life's all about relationships, right?
So even if somebody was nottrained properly and they were a
participant in the jaildiversion program at the time, I
was able to stand up for themand vouch for them and say, hey,
I'm a court employee, thisperson is working with us, kind
of like they're okay.
(09:14):
You know what's the problem.
Let's talk about this and even,you know, make an excuse for
the person if they're not doingwell, like, oh, you know,
something happened.
But it's all about educationand relationships.
Having, at the time, a countyor court badge when speaking to
somebody else that may work forthe same department in the
(09:34):
police goes a long way on thestreet than just somebody else
that they may not recognize orbe able to relate to in that
situation.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Dealing with situations like psychosis or a
major meltdown in autism can bechallenging.
These conditions often presentcomplex symptoms that are
difficult to diagnose,especially when you only have a
few minutes or seconds to assessa situation and determine the
best way to manage it, so toprevent it from escalating to a
situation that gets completelyout of control.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
The biggest thing which is kind of the opposite of
the way officers are taught torespond immediately to things
and they have that triggeredstress of responding to calls
all day and they're ready to gois really to take a step back
and helping have clearcommunications, like if the
officer is trained to have thatcall come in through the right
(10:27):
path to let people know.
Let them know that you know thisperson may be experiencing
crisis or a difficult time rightnow to really approach them
differently and I've seenofficers really strive with this
.
We know so much is going wrongin so many of these encounters
nationally and it's just notright.
And there's good policeofficers caught on the other
(10:48):
side of that too that I'veworked with that are more
effective than some socialworkers that I've worked with.
So it really depends on theperson responding to these calls
and their education and thewant to serve.
You know I worked with this oneofficer.
They were doing people'slaundry on the street.
They were helping them withtheir laundry, helping them get
(11:09):
to the appointments.
You know incredible stuff thatyou don't hear about.
Then, unfortunately, you'll seesomebody that's not trained
well or at all and respond tosomebody in crisis, and they're
the ones that make the news.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yes, there are definitely a lot of good people
out there doing their jobs andthey deserve recognition as well
.
How does the training youprovide to police officers
intersect with the role of thespecialist who supports
individuals navigating theongoing court process,
particularly given that not allindividuals involved have
(11:42):
consistent police encounters,and considering the officers you
may train may not directlycorrelate with those responding
to specific calls?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Well, let me just clarify a few things.
So my job as a peer specialistwas to support people in the
ongoing court process.
Not everybody had a policeencounter all the time, but it
did happen from time to time.
The training I do with policeis off hours, right to do the
training separately, so that maynot be a direct correlation
(12:14):
between the officers I'm able towork with on the training to
some of these calls.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Okay, that makes sense.
Now, do you help them when theyget into the legal system, or
do you help them before they getin the legal system, or do you
try to do both?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Both because it's really about education and I
don't work there anymore.
I work for a national mentalhealth agency that's in
Arlington, virginia now, but Icontinue to do CIT training as a
volunteer with officers.
But when I worked for the courtfor 14 years, everybody had
agreed voluntarily to be a partof this jail diversion program.
(12:52):
So even though they hadcriminal charges pending, they
were given a chance to go on analternate route to get some help
to get the state attorney todrop the charges.
So if they successfullycompleted this program which
involved community treatment andhelp peer support, this program
which involved communitytreatment and help peer support
getting jobs, getting housing,if they were able to navigate
(13:13):
that, the state would drop theircharges.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Okay.
Did you ever have a situationwhere you was trying to assist
someone, yet, in spite of allyour efforts, it didn't seem to
click for you?
The more you both tried, themore you felt it wasn't going to
work.
And then, after some time,whatever that was, it came
(13:40):
together.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Have you ever experienced something like that?
Absolutely.
You see, you have to meetpeople where they're at and with
peer support.
You're not forcing thisapproach on them, because it's
really up to the person to wantto make that change.
And unfortunately, as we know,some people don't get to make
that change right.
Because what I've seen in myexperience of getting thousands
of people out of jail for almost15 years is that people do get
(14:04):
incarcerated, they do live onthe streets and sometimes they
do die, and that is a harshreality that I have to tell you
that just because they wereinvolved in this program.
It wasn't a miracle either, butthere were people that did come
back multiple times and I sawpeople get help multiple times.
So that means they werearrested multiple times, given
(14:25):
multiple chance at this programand then finally be able to
receive some help multiplechance at this program and then
finally be able to receive somehelp.
One gentleman was able to closeout multiple felonies, go back
to school, get sober in arecovery program and work again
and not be involved with thejustice system, for I think it's
been at least 10 years now, sothat's an accomplishment.
(14:47):
You know you look at recidivism.
You know you can't expectpeople to maybe, like, become
doctors and lawyers they shouldand they can.
But what I look at as a win isstaying off the street, staying
out of incarceration, livingsome sort of meaningful life
that matters to the person.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Can you tell us about the company that you're working
with now?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Can you tell us about the company that you're working
with now?
I work for an organizationdubbed the acronym NASHVID,
which is the NationalAssociation of State Mental
Health Program Directors.
Long acronym, so say that threetimes fast.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, that's a tongue twister for sure.
So are you in Virginia now?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
I'm in Miami, florida .
I work remotely and I work withstates.
Now I use all that experiencethat I learned from working in
Miami on the streets and my ownpersonal experience of recovery
which, by the way you know, Ilive a fully functional life for
somebody that's been diagnosedwith an illness like
schizophrenia andschizoaffective disorder.
I have a family, I have a home,I have two cars.
(15:50):
I live a life that before inthis country if you got a
diagnosis it was a deathsentence basically to have, or a
life of institutions.
But my job now is really towork with states and territories
and their behavioral healthteams and to really advocate for
people with lived experiencelike myself and other people in
different aspects of theircommunity that they're a part of
(16:13):
their states and theirprogramming and that they
continue that when they buildsystems out, that people like us
are included and at the table.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
I think that's awesome.
Now, when you first started,you was just in Miami and Dade
County, is that correct?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
So when you started out, you was working within the
legal system people on thestreet, trying to help them in
that way.
Now you're working with statelegislators and people of that
nature.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Really state behavioral health teams.
So it did go from a local to anational level and that is
different.
It's not necessarily likewithin legislation and policy,
but it does touch that sometimeswith the people that we work
with at the states.
Through my time at the JailDiversion Program, judge Leifman
and I starred in a documentarycalled the Definition of
(17:05):
Insanity, which is amazing, ifyou want to talk about it a
little bit later.
And I was in a Ken Burnsdocumentary on youth mental
health, hiding in Plain Sight,which also aired on PBS three
years ago.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
That's awesome.
Documentaries are just so good.
Can you expand on thosedocumentaries a little?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
So the definition of insanity was based on my time at
the Jail Diversion Programwhich I explained to you, and it
kind of encompasses that peerspecialists, cit officers and
participants of the court goingand what it kind of entailed and
(17:47):
that was just a snapshot ofkind of what our daily life was
like.
And then Hiding in Plain Sightwas a Ken Burns film on youth
mental health, because the youthmental health is experiencing
crisis too, and it followedabout 20 to 25 people, a lot of
young adults, some youth I was35 when they made the film.
I made the cut, thank God.
(18:08):
I don't know how I got in ayouth film at 35, but they
followed their stories and howthey came across the system and
it is a very powerful film.
They're both very powerfulfilms.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
So have you seen being in both these
documentaries have had an impacton your life.
Have you noticed other peoplelooking at you, giving you more
credibility because of this?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, absolutely, it adds credibility.
It adds credibility to juststay above ground and just to
live a life that, as somebodywith my lived experience, live a
better life than some peoplethat are more educated than me.
They may make more money thanme, but I live a good life and
that shows and shines through ofwhat this work's about about
(18:53):
doing the next right thing andshowing up every day.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Absolutely, and it's amazing how you've made your
mark in Miami.
Now that you've expanded to thenational stage to help people,
what do you envision foryourself over the next, let's
say, three to five years?
How do you see your roleevolving and what changes do you
hope to inspire with your work?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, my lens is really just that.
You know I'd love to see moreexpansion on police training,
people with lived experience aspart of those trainings.
So you think about people incrisis experiencing different
things, even autism.
You know they need to be a partof these trainings so police
and first responders can reallyunderstand what it's like
(19:40):
firsthand to experiencesomething like that.
Right, the other thing I wantto see is better access to care
for people, differentalternatives instead of
traditional health care.
This is just my wish list.
You know it's not saying it'sgoing to happen, but there
should be other pathways andchances for people to recover.
Not everybody, like myself,will get help through the
(20:02):
justice system and we needavenues preventively that people
can walk into open doors beforethey end up in a police car or
a jail cell.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Those are great points.
As you said, some of those canbe implemented.
Unfortunately, some won't.
How do we elevate this to alevel where there's a stronger
presence, addressing the needsof not just autistic individuals
or those with mental healthchallenges, but the entire
spectrum?
Mental health is a broadumbrella.
(20:32):
It covers many differentconditions.
So how do we get all theseentities to collaborate
effectively and work with peoplelike you who can share real
lived experiences?
How do we help those sittingbehind desks understand what
you're trying to convey aboutthe realities faced by people
(20:54):
living on the streets?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
It really, really advocacy is involved in all of
it and that we really need toadvocate for these systems to be
better, and that, you know,just because we're going to
throw money at a situation, wekeep getting funding, funding,
funding, but it seems like theseproblems are worse every year.
So how can we get our best bangfor our buck?
How can we make sure?
I think, you know, instead ofputting out like a national
(21:18):
initiative for everybody, itreally starts, like you said, at
the local community level, andevery community looks different.
Every state looks different,every community within the state
looks different, and thereshould be some things that are
common sense for all, but uniqueand specific to those
populations being served.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
And then his answer was common sense, no-transcript.
(21:57):
So how do we bridge the gap andconnect with people who only
see the stigma?
How do we reach those whohaven't had the lived
experiences like you have?
If we can meet them on theirlevel and show them we're all
just regular people, maybe wecan break through those
misconceptions.
So how do we get past thebarriers and help them see a
(22:22):
different, better perspective?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
You know, sometimes you know they say a consultant
or a subject matter expert issomebody that lives, you know,
in another state, becausethere's people in your local
community or state that you'rehearing they may be annoying.
Right, you hear the same thing.
We need change.
We need change.
But if somebody over here says,hey, we did this, wow, what a
(22:45):
great idea.
And the people in the state say, well, we've been talking about
that for years.
So, really having these peopleat the table, and when you look
at community healing, when youlook at these practices, having
open forums where discussionscan be had and tensions don't
have to be high to really breakdown those barriers and that
(23:06):
looks different in a lot ofplaces, and you know I am
generalizing If you really wantto reach the population you're
serving, they need to be at thetable, no matter what it is.
And we need to really rememberand, like you said, get back to
fundamentals, common sense.
We need to just sit down andtalk with each other and listen
to each other.
Look at the data that backs allof it, look at the facts.
(23:29):
Is this working or not?
And if it's not, let's dosomething together, because
we're supposed to be in thistogether and live in a country
where we should all strive.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Absolutely.
I think that's the mostimportant message that we can
put out.
There is that we need to learnand we need to adapt to each
other in all our differences.
We need to find a way to shareyour story with people so
they'll listen and learn from it.
Hopefully, that can help breakdown the stigma.
Once someone hears what you'vebeen through, the challenges
(24:00):
you've faced, what you've beenthrough, the challenges you've
faced, how you've overcome themand where you are now, they
should be inspired.
They should be standing in awe,welcome you rather than casting
judgment or turning away.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
I think there's a lot of old myths about people that
are unstable and violent.
People with serious mentalillness like schizophrenia and
bipolar, are actually morelikely to be victims of crimes
than actually commit them, andthere's a lot of old kind of
thinking around that or thatpeople they have seen on the
(24:35):
subway maybe talking tothemselves, not smelling well,
and they just think that that'sall of them, that's what that
looks like and that's all theyare, when that's just what can
happen.
But it's not the only pathwayto healing.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And to kind of further what youjust said, I think one of the
biggest challenges afterspeaking with doctors and
lawyers and judges and all thelegislators is the big unknown
for people that's never dealtwith anyone this autistic or has
mental illness.
They just get scared by it and,unfortunately, because that,
(25:12):
they can be very judgmental.
I think you earlier saidgetting everybody at the table.
I think that's a great.
Unfortunately, some of thosepeople that will be at that
table are some of the peoplethat I just talked about that
could be very judgmental.
How do we get them to be lessjudgmental?
Because if they see what you'vedone and people that you've
(25:34):
helped have done, it just showsthat it can be so much better
than what they think it is.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
We should have those family member voices at the
table too, Tony, because whocould speak more than a mother's
love or a family's love forsomebody that's experienced some
of these difficulties?
But you're right, their stigmais a real thing and I still
encounter it.
I think I'm at a stage in mylife where people don't know
that I live with some of theseillnesses or disorders, and when
(26:01):
I come and approach that I do,it shocks people and my message
can go a long way.
But it's still a struggle andwe need to do better to educate
these people that may havebiases and stigmas toward people
with mental health conditionsand autism.
We still got more work to do.
That's why we do this.
That's why we keep coming back,because we're not there yet.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yes, I totally agree with you.
So, in closing, what would youlike to tell the listeners that
you think is very important?
That they just need to know onwhat you're trying to do?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I want the listener to hear that anybody can recover
.
You know I was written off andsaid to leave to dead on the
street.
Here I have a fully functionalgreat life written off by
doctors, family members, youname it and I kept coming back
and just know that you can nevercount somebody out and that
there's always still hope.
(26:57):
And if you have that glimmer ofhope and you put in the work,
that you can recover and you canlive a great life and you
deserve it and everybodydeserves it.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yeah, I totally agree .
Well, this has been great Greatconversation, great information
.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Thanks, tony, I really appreciate you having me
on the show.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
It's been my pleasure .
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(27:41):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the World, theconversations we're having and
(28:02):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:53):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs, the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is JustinVolpe.
He's a certified recovery peerspecialist and a shining example
of how individuals living withmental illness can play a vital
role in collaborating with lawenforcement, service providers
(01:15):
and anyone in need of support.
Justin has trained over 2,500police officers through a crisis
intervention team program andcontinues to make a national
impact by helping others.
He's here to share hisinspiring story and wealth of
knowledge.
It's an honor to have him withus today.
Thanks for coming on.
(01:36):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Oh, it's my pleasure.
You're a mental health advocate.
Can you tell us what led youdown this path?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
You're a mental health advocate.
Can you tell us what led youdown this path?
You know, my own diagnosis whenI was 22 or 23 years old really
shaped that journey to want togive back to the community and
help other people.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah, it's always great to help others.
Can you give the listeners alittle of your background so
they can understand what led tothis path that you're doing, so
they can?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
understand what led to this path that you're doing.
Yeah, absolutely, Tony.
I live in Miami, Florida, andat 22 or 23 years old, I was
struggling with substance useand alcohol issues.
I was put into a rehab and Ithought that that was my problem
.
But when I stayed clean off thedrugs and alcohol, those
problems persisted and it endedup being a diagnosis of what is
(02:27):
now considered schizoaffectivedisorder.
I was hearing voices, I wasseeing things that weren't there
all in all, while working andtrying to maintain my daily life
.
This disorder led to a lot ofturbulent times in my life and
ended up being incarcerated at23 years old in 2007 in the
(02:49):
Miami-Dade County Jail.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
During your time of incarceration, was there a
pivotal event or experience thatoccurred which fundamentally
altered your life?
Altered your life, compellingyou to recognize the necessity
of personal improvement andinspiring you to leverage the
insights and knowledge youacquired to positively impact
(03:12):
the lives of others.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Well, you know something about some mental
health diagnosis is everybodyelse seems to know that there's
an issue, but to know insidethat something's not adding up
takes a level of awareness thatI did not have at the time.
But it wasn't until I went intothe judicial system.
(03:33):
I was released from court, fromjail, through a court program
to help people with mentalhealth and co-occurring
disorders called the JailDiversion Program.
That's where I got introducedto Judge Leifman's program.
After I got released into thisoutpatient treatment program, I
was given the support I neededto get back on my feet, given
(03:55):
education, a lot of differenttypes of therapy and access to
resources I didn't have before.
After I started to take thisrecovery journey, I started to
feel better and then, withineight months of being
incarcerated, I was given anopportunity to become a peer
specialist.
(04:15):
A peer specialist is somebodywith lived experience in the
jail diversion program.
So as soon as I got it andunderstood what I had to do to
maintain, I was given theopportunity to give service to
others being released from thejustice system, and I did that
for 14 years.
Tony and I got thousands ofpeople out of incarceration to
(04:36):
help them get back on their feetand stay out of places like the
streets and the hospitals andthe jails by trying things a
different way.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Everyone has their own unique style when it comes
to helping others.
Some lean towards a moreaggressive approach, others take
a gentler, more passive tack,and then there's everything in
between.
What was your style like?
How did you go about supportingthose who needed your help, and
how does your help affect them?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Well, a peer specialist and a peer role is
really a mutual understandingthat you have with the people
that you're working with.
So the unique style that Ireally had to do was become a
bridger in the community.
So many different people don'ttalk to each other.
The jails and the courts don'ttalk to the treatment providers,
they don't talk to the housingproviders, they don't talk to
transportation and a peerspecialist.
(05:32):
My role was to really geteverybody on the same page and
hustle out there on the streetevery day.
Because I didn't work in theoffice, I was on the street
hustling for people to keep themout of these systems, and some
of that was having open lines ofcommunication, showing up for
people to doctor's appointments,bringing them to court, getting
them clothes, getting them food, getting them transportation
(05:56):
all in their wellness journey toactually avoid a justice system
where that would not help getthem better.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Wow, that's a great description of what you do.
I think that's going to help alot of people understand it.
Now, what about CIT training?
Do you do anything like that tohelp police navigate situations
?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, thanks for mentioning that.
I do CIT training.
I've trained over 3,500 policeofficers in Miami-Dade County
and that training would helpkeep somebody out of the justice
system altogether at first.
So if a police officer receivedthat training, they should, if
they spot somebody in crisis, beable to de-escalate them and
(06:37):
not arrest them, and get them tothe proper resources if needed.
That's not a jail cell.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yeah, that's really really good.
Now, what about thecommunication centers?
When we think of firstresponders, we always think
about police.
Yet before the police get there, you've got 911.
Do you do any work with them sothey can get the information
needed to hopefully send aCIT-trained officer to the scene
(07:06):
?
Have you worked with the 911operators?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
A little bit.
I've done some training withthe mobile crisis teams that
would actually respond otherthan police if a call comes into
a crisis line, and we've donesome training with 911 operators
so they can help distinguish acall that may be someone in
crisis, so they know the kind ofvibe or what that feels like.
(07:30):
Because without that trainingthey may not understand the
difference between if an actualcrime is happening or if
somebody is experiencing acrisis.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Okay, have you ever been involved in a crisis
situation where you've witnessedand assisted both the police in
managing the scene and theindividual in need?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I have been involved in a lot of crisis situations in
the community, like you justexplained, and my biggest thing
is communication, making surethe person being served needs
are met and that they'reunderstood completely, as well
as the police, so kind of like abridger in between in that
relationship to make sureeverything's good and working
smoothly to help the person inneed.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Okay, suppose you arrive at a scene where someone
has experienced psychosis andfacing serious challenges.
The responding police officerhasn't received CIT training,
yet you're there to assist.
What would your approach be?
Police officers often have onlyseconds to react to a situation
, and the goal is to prevent itfrom escalating into something
(08:35):
harmful for anyone involved.
How would you de-escalate thesituation, help the officer
understand what you're doing,yet supporting the person in
crisis so that, ideally, thingsresolve peacefully and don't
take a turn for the worse?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
You know, life's all about relationships, right?
So even if somebody was nottrained properly and they were a
participant in the jaildiversion program at the time, I
was able to stand up for themand vouch for them and say, hey,
I'm a court employee, thisperson is working with us, kind
of like they're okay.
(09:14):
You know what's the problem.
Let's talk about this and even,you know, make an excuse for
the person if they're not doingwell, like, oh, you know,
something happened.
But it's all about educationand relationships.
Having, at the time, a countyor court badge when speaking to
somebody else that may work forthe same department in the
(09:34):
police goes a long way on thestreet than just somebody else
that they may not recognize orbe able to relate to in that
situation.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Dealing with situations like psychosis or a
major meltdown in autism can bechallenging.
These conditions often presentcomplex symptoms that are
difficult to diagnose,especially when you only have a
few minutes or seconds to assessa situation and determine the
best way to manage it, so toprevent it from escalating to a
situation that gets completelyout of control.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
The biggest thing which is kind of the opposite of
the way officers are taught torespond immediately to things
and they have that triggeredstress of responding to calls
all day and they're ready to gois really to take a step back
and helping have clearcommunications, like if the
officer is trained to have thatcall come in through the right
(10:27):
path to let people know.
Let them know that you know thisperson may be experiencing
crisis or a difficult time rightnow to really approach them
differently and I've seenofficers really strive with this
.
We know so much is going wrongin so many of these encounters
nationally and it's just notright.
And there's good policeofficers caught on the other
(10:48):
side of that too that I'veworked with that are more
effective than some socialworkers that I've worked with.
So it really depends on theperson responding to these calls
and their education and thewant to serve.
You know I worked with this oneofficer.
They were doing people'slaundry on the street.
They were helping them withtheir laundry, helping them get
(11:09):
to the appointments.
You know incredible stuff thatyou don't hear about.
Then, unfortunately, you'll seesomebody that's not trained
well or at all and respond tosomebody in crisis, and they're
the ones that make the news.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yes, there are definitely a lot of good people
out there doing their jobs andthey deserve recognition as well
.
How does the training youprovide to police officers
intersect with the role of thespecialist who supports
individuals navigating theongoing court process,
particularly given that not allindividuals involved have
(11:42):
consistent police encounters,and considering the officers you
may train may not directlycorrelate with those responding
to specific calls?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Well, let me just clarify a few things.
So my job as a peer specialistwas to support people in the
ongoing court process.
Not everybody had a policeencounter all the time, but it
did happen from time to time.
The training I do with policeis off hours, right to do the
training separately, so that maynot be a direct correlation
(12:14):
between the officers I'm able towork with on the training to
some of these calls.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Okay, that makes sense.
Now, do you help them when theyget into the legal system, or
do you help them before they getin the legal system, or do you
try to do both?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Both because it's really about education and I
don't work there anymore.
I work for a national mentalhealth agency that's in
Arlington, virginia now, but Icontinue to do CIT training as a
volunteer with officers.
But when I worked for the courtfor 14 years, everybody had
agreed voluntarily to be a partof this jail diversion program.
(12:52):
So even though they hadcriminal charges pending, they
were given a chance to go on analternate route to get some help
to get the state attorney todrop the charges.
So if they successfullycompleted this program which
involved community treatment andhelp peer support, this program
which involved communitytreatment and help peer support
getting jobs, getting housing,if they were able to navigate
(13:13):
that, the state would drop theircharges.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Okay.
Did you ever have a situationwhere you was trying to assist
someone, yet, in spite of allyour efforts, it didn't seem to
click for you?
The more you both tried, themore you felt it wasn't going to
work.
And then, after some time,whatever that was, it came
(13:40):
together.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Have you ever experienced something like that?
Absolutely.
You see, you have to meetpeople where they're at and with
peer support.
You're not forcing thisapproach on them, because it's
really up to the person to wantto make that change.
And unfortunately, as we know,some people don't get to make
that change right.
Because what I've seen in myexperience of getting thousands
of people out of jail for almost15 years is that people do get
(14:04):
incarcerated, they do live onthe streets and sometimes they
do die, and that is a harshreality that I have to tell you
that just because they wereinvolved in this program.
It wasn't a miracle either, butthere were people that did come
back multiple times and I sawpeople get help multiple times.
So that means they werearrested multiple times, given
(14:25):
multiple chance at this programand then finally be able to
receive some help multiplechance at this program and then
finally be able to receive somehelp.
One gentleman was able to closeout multiple felonies, go back
to school, get sober in arecovery program and work again
and not be involved with thejustice system, for I think it's
been at least 10 years now, sothat's an accomplishment.
(14:47):
You know you look at recidivism.
You know you can't expectpeople to maybe, like, become
doctors and lawyers they shouldand they can.
But what I look at as a win isstaying off the street, staying
out of incarceration, livingsome sort of meaningful life
that matters to the person.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Can you tell us about the company that you're working
with now?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Can you tell us about the company that you're working
with now?
I work for an organizationdubbed the acronym NASHVID,
which is the NationalAssociation of State Mental
Health Program Directors.
Long acronym, so say that threetimes fast.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, that's a tongue twister for sure.
So are you in Virginia now?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
I'm in Miami, florida .
I work remotely and I work withstates.
Now I use all that experiencethat I learned from working in
Miami on the streets and my ownpersonal experience of recovery
which, by the way you know, Ilive a fully functional life for
somebody that's been diagnosedwith an illness like
schizophrenia andschizoaffective disorder.
I have a family, I have a home,I have two cars.
(15:50):
I live a life that before inthis country if you got a
diagnosis it was a deathsentence basically to have, or a
life of institutions.
But my job now is really towork with states and territories
and their behavioral healthteams and to really advocate for
people with lived experiencelike myself and other people in
different aspects of theircommunity that they're a part of
(16:13):
their states and theirprogramming and that they
continue that when they buildsystems out, that people like us
are included and at the table.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
I think that's awesome.
Now, when you first started,you was just in Miami and Dade
County, is that correct?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
So when you started out, you was working within the
legal system people on thestreet, trying to help them in
that way.
Now you're working with statelegislators and people of that
nature.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Really state behavioral health teams.
So it did go from a local to anational level and that is
different.
It's not necessarily likewithin legislation and policy,
but it does touch that sometimeswith the people that we work
with at the states.
Through my time at the JailDiversion Program, judge Leifman
and I starred in a documentarycalled the Definition of
(17:05):
Insanity, which is amazing, ifyou want to talk about it a
little bit later.
And I was in a Ken Burnsdocumentary on youth mental
health, hiding in Plain Sight,which also aired on PBS three
years ago.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
That's awesome.
Documentaries are just so good.
Can you expand on thosedocumentaries a little?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
So the definition of insanity was based on my time at
the Jail Diversion Programwhich I explained to you, and it
kind of encompasses that peerspecialists, cit officers and
participants of the court goingand what it kind of entailed and
(17:47):
that was just a snapshot ofkind of what our daily life was
like.
And then Hiding in Plain Sightwas a Ken Burns film on youth
mental health, because the youthmental health is experiencing
crisis too, and it followedabout 20 to 25 people, a lot of
young adults, some youth I was35 when they made the film.
I made the cut, thank God.
(18:08):
I don't know how I got in ayouth film at 35, but they
followed their stories and howthey came across the system and
it is a very powerful film.
They're both very powerfulfilms.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
So have you seen being in both these
documentaries have had an impacton your life.
Have you noticed other peoplelooking at you, giving you more
credibility because of this?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, absolutely, it adds credibility.
It adds credibility to juststay above ground and just to
live a life that, as somebodywith my lived experience, live a
better life than some peoplethat are more educated than me.
They may make more money thanme, but I live a good life and
that shows and shines through ofwhat this work's about about
(18:53):
doing the next right thing andshowing up every day.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Absolutely, and it's amazing how you've made your
mark in Miami.
Now that you've expanded to thenational stage to help people,
what do you envision foryourself over the next, let's
say, three to five years?
How do you see your roleevolving and what changes do you
hope to inspire with your work?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, my lens is really just that.
You know I'd love to see moreexpansion on police training,
people with lived experience aspart of those trainings.
So you think about people incrisis experiencing different
things, even autism.
You know they need to be a partof these trainings so police
and first responders can reallyunderstand what it's like
(19:40):
firsthand to experiencesomething like that.
Right, the other thing I wantto see is better access to care
for people, differentalternatives instead of
traditional health care.
This is just my wish list.
You know it's not saying it'sgoing to happen, but there
should be other pathways andchances for people to recover.
Not everybody, like myself,will get help through the
(20:02):
justice system and we needavenues preventively that people
can walk into open doors beforethey end up in a police car or
a jail cell.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Those are great points.
As you said, some of those canbe implemented.
Unfortunately, some won't.
How do we elevate this to alevel where there's a stronger
presence, addressing the needsof not just autistic individuals
or those with mental healthchallenges, but the entire
spectrum?
Mental health is a broadumbrella.
(20:32):
It covers many differentconditions.
So how do we get all theseentities to collaborate
effectively and work with peoplelike you who can share real
lived experiences?
How do we help those sittingbehind desks understand what
you're trying to convey aboutthe realities faced by people
(20:54):
living on the streets?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
It really, really advocacy is involved in all of
it and that we really need toadvocate for these systems to be
better, and that, you know,just because we're going to
throw money at a situation, wekeep getting funding, funding,
funding, but it seems like theseproblems are worse every year.
So how can we get our best bangfor our buck?
How can we make sure?
I think, you know, instead ofputting out like a national
(21:18):
initiative for everybody, itreally starts, like you said, at
the local community level, andevery community looks different.
Every state looks different,every community within the state
looks different, and thereshould be some things that are
common sense for all, but uniqueand specific to those
populations being served.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
And then his answer was common sense, no-transcript.
(21:57):
So how do we bridge the gap andconnect with people who only
see the stigma?
How do we reach those whohaven't had the lived
experiences like you have?
If we can meet them on theirlevel and show them we're all
just regular people, maybe wecan break through those
misconceptions.
So how do we get past thebarriers and help them see a
(22:22):
different, better perspective?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
You know, sometimes you know they say a consultant
or a subject matter expert issomebody that lives, you know,
in another state, becausethere's people in your local
community or state that you'rehearing they may be annoying.
Right, you hear the same thing.
We need change.
We need change.
But if somebody over here says,hey, we did this, wow, what a
(22:45):
great idea.
And the people in the state say, well, we've been talking about
that for years.
So, really having these peopleat the table, and when you look
at community healing, when youlook at these practices, having
open forums where discussionscan be had and tensions don't
have to be high to really breakdown those barriers and that
(23:06):
looks different in a lot ofplaces, and you know I am
generalizing If you really wantto reach the population you're
serving, they need to be at thetable, no matter what it is.
And we need to really rememberand, like you said, get back to
fundamentals, common sense.
We need to just sit down andtalk with each other and listen
to each other.
Look at the data that backs allof it, look at the facts.
(23:29):
Is this working or not?
And if it's not, let's dosomething together, because
we're supposed to be in thistogether and live in a country
where we should all strive.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Absolutely.
I think that's the mostimportant message that we can
put out.
There is that we need to learnand we need to adapt to each
other in all our differences.
We need to find a way to shareyour story with people so
they'll listen and learn from it.
Hopefully, that can help breakdown the stigma.
Once someone hears what you'vebeen through, the challenges
(24:00):
you've faced, what you've beenthrough, the challenges you've
faced, how you've overcome themand where you are now, they
should be inspired.
They should be standing in awe,welcome you rather than casting
judgment or turning away.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
I think there's a lot of old myths about people that
are unstable and violent.
People with serious mentalillness like schizophrenia and
bipolar, are actually morelikely to be victims of crimes
than actually commit them, andthere's a lot of old kind of
thinking around that or thatpeople they have seen on the
(24:35):
subway maybe talking tothemselves, not smelling well,
and they just think that that'sall of them, that's what that
looks like and that's all theyare, when that's just what can
happen.
But it's not the only pathwayto healing.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And to kind of further what youjust said, I think one of the
biggest challenges afterspeaking with doctors and
lawyers and judges and all thelegislators is the big unknown
for people that's never dealtwith anyone this autistic or has
mental illness.
They just get scared by it and,unfortunately, because that,
(25:12):
they can be very judgmental.
I think you earlier saidgetting everybody at the table.
I think that's a great.
Unfortunately, some of thosepeople that will be at that
table are some of the peoplethat I just talked about that
could be very judgmental.
How do we get them to be lessjudgmental?
Because if they see what you'vedone and people that you've
(25:34):
helped have done, it just showsthat it can be so much better
than what they think it is.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
We should have those family member voices at the
table too, Tony, because whocould speak more than a mother's
love or a family's love forsomebody that's experienced some
of these difficulties?
But you're right, their stigmais a real thing and I still
encounter it.
I think I'm at a stage in mylife where people don't know
that I live with some of theseillnesses or disorders, and when
(26:01):
I come and approach that I do,it shocks people and my message
can go a long way.
But it's still a struggle andwe need to do better to educate
these people that may havebiases and stigmas toward people
with mental health conditionsand autism.
We still got more work to do.
That's why we do this.
That's why we keep coming back,because we're not there yet.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yes, I totally agree with you.
So, in closing, what would youlike to tell the listeners that
you think is very important?
That they just need to know onwhat you're trying to do?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I want the listener to hear that anybody can recover
.
You know I was written off andsaid to leave to dead on the
street.
Here I have a fully functionalgreat life written off by
doctors, family members, youname it and I kept coming back
and just know that you can nevercount somebody out and that
there's always still hope.
(26:57):
And if you have that glimmer ofhope and you put in the work,
that you can recover and you canlive a great life and you
deserve it and everybodydeserves it.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yeah, I totally agree .
Well, this has been great Greatconversation, great information
.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Thanks, tony, I really appreciate you having me
on the show.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
It's been my pleasure .
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(27:41):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the World, theconversations we're having and
(28:02):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
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