May 29, 2025 • 27 mins
Laura Craciun shares her son's harrowing journey with serious mental illness and the systemic failures that criminalize mental health conditions instead of treating them.
Her story highlights the urgent need for better policies to support individuals with psychosis and their families.
• Laura's son was misdiagnosed with ADHD before eventually being diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder at age 20
• Cannabis use potentially triggered or worsened his psychotic symptoms
• Despite 16 attempts to get help through ERs and police, the family faced constant rejection from healthcare facilities
• Anosognosia (lack of illness awareness) prevented her son from voluntarily seeking treatment
• After a violent episode, her son entered the justice system rather than receiving appropriate psychiatric care
• Their state's mental health department only offers services to those who volunteer, excluding those with anosognosia
• The legal system spent resources on 72 court hearings rather than on treatment
• Laura advocates for Assisted Outpatient Treatment laws to bridge the gap between legal and medical systems
• Better education is needed for judges, lawyers, and medical professionals about serious mental illness
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, Broadcasting from
Music City, USA, Nashville,Tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:29):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:53):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is LauraKrachun.
She's a passionate mentalhealth advocate, collaborating
with organizations like theNational Shattering Silence
Coalition.
Today, she's here to share herson's journey with serious
(01:14):
mental illness, offeringvaluable insights to support
others that may be facingsimilar challenges.
We will also discuss assistedoutpatient treatment laws and
the rising issue ofcannabis-induced psychosis among
teens and young adults.
She has a wealth of informationand we're pleased to have her
here to share her story with us.
(01:36):
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I'm very honored.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Oh, it's my pleasure.
Now I understand that you'repart of a charity that supports
mental illness, Can you?
I understand that you're partof a charity that supports
mental illness.
Can you expand on that?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I found National Shattering Silence Coalition
after my son, who hasschizoaffective disorder,
attempted to kill his own father.
The police had reached out tome afterwards and said you
really should get some supportfor your family going and join a
NAMI chapter.
The NAMI chapter put me intouch with National Shattering
(02:10):
Silence and ever since then Ifelt like the most support I've
ever had with my son's illness,which he's been battling since
17 years old and now he's 23.
So it was as if I had apartnership.
So National Shattering SilenceCoalition is made up of peers,
family members, medical, legallaw professionals, concerned
(02:32):
citizens that are all to do withserious mental illness,
specifically the ones that arethe most challenging cases with
psychosis like schizophrenia,schizoaffective, bipolar with
psychotic features anddrug-induced psychosis.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay.
So when your son first startedhaving some of the issues that
he was facing, how did youhandle it?
I mean, when people firstencounter psychosis or anything
along that line, it's the bigunknown.
They don't know what to do.
They don't know what to expect.
It's just a very scary time forthem.
(03:11):
So, with all this going on, howdid you handle it?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I had some experience in this because I myself suffer
with bipolar since the age of17.
So I've been medicated from age30 when I was diagnosed after my
two sons were born, and havestayed on medications gratefully
, because I know how much theywork.
When my sons were born, I waswatching out to see if they may
(03:37):
show symptoms and signs.
Despite my fear that my youngerson had bipolar, every
neurologist and psychiatrist andtherapist and school
professional kept saying no, itwas just ADHD.
He suffered, unfortunately evenin the school systems, with
ADHD being misdiagnosed as thatdisorder instead of bipolar, and
(04:02):
so by the time he reachedsenior year he was already
acting so bizarrely that we hadthe suspicions confirmed and he
had to be forced into ahospitalization during the
middle of his senior year inhigh school.
So I was dealing with how tohandle his illness when it came
about in a stronger way at age20, with less experience,
(04:25):
because his bipolar alsoincluded psychotic features and
I never had those.
My family wasn't familiar withit either.
He had been smoking marijuana,and they say that marijuana
induces mania and psychosis tosuch a degree that it could
actually instigate a strongerform of the illness.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, I have heard that from a couple of different
sources.
So he was 20 when this firststarted.
So what happened?
From there, he was starting tohave some symptoms.
So what happened that led youto get more information, to try
and get more diagnosis of whatwas going on, so you could get
(05:06):
this under control.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Well, I got a phone call from a friend's parent, a
father, and he was concerned formy son.
He said I think he's sick, Ithink he's not well just like my
own family member and I can'tfind him.
He's missing.
He used to be staying with usand that's when I made a call
out to my friends and communityto help me find him.
(05:30):
He had disappeared with no wordto his friends or anyone where
he was, and a search and rescuewent on and dogs and all kinds
of police investigation andinterviews happened, and for
three months we were certainwe'd lost him forever.
When he came back, I wouldnormally think that you'd be
(05:50):
relieved, but I actually beganthe bigger nightmare when he
came back, because he was sodifferent looking and acting
than anything I'd been familiarwith him before.
So I think the summer of July2022, he was in and out of
psychosis, which is a strangebehavior that can drift in and
(06:12):
out without any warning.
So it's very disconcerting andit was shocking.
So we had a difficult timegetting a grasp on how to handle
it and we tried our emergencyservices and behavioral health
lines and crisis lines.
Nobody seemed to help us reallyget him the treatment he needed
(06:33):
.
In fact, a hospital turned usaway when we brought him to the
ER because they said well, youknow he can be crazy, but if
he's not a harm to himself orothers, then we can't keep him
here.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
But if he's not a harm to himself or others, then
we can't keep him here.
Yes, I've heard that from manyothers, that if there's not an
immediate danger to him orothers that they turn away.
So what was your next step?
I mean, he may not be harm tohimself or others at that point
in time, but over a period oftime it could be a day or an
(07:05):
hour or a week it could develop.
So what did you do to try andget it more under control so
that he could move forward?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Well, we attempted 16 times with police and ERs.
Then at one point the policehad to come to the house.
There were eight EMTprofessionals that were called
in because he kept pointing ateveryone, saying you know, look
at me, look at me.
Because he believed he couldcontrol you with his eyes and he
(07:34):
was saying things like I'mfaster than a speeding bullet
and he was acting psychotic.
So they put him in a four-pointrestraint and took him to the
hospital.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
What happened next?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
They put him in a four-point restraint and took
him to the hospital.
What happened next?
The physician took us in a roomand said if Nick smokes
marijuana one more time, hecould have treatment-resistant
bipolar with psychotic features.
This was the first we'd everheard that and that's when we
were finally going to get thehelp we needed.
And they put him in a forcedhospitalization for a month in
Worcester and let him go withjust a bottle of pills saying
(08:08):
you know, take this medicine.
When he came out he was stillpsychotic.
He did not believe he wasmentally ill and he wasn't
better.
In fact, he was quite angry,from just acting crazy to
holding a knife when it wasbeing used to chop some chicken
on the blade end in order to gethis father's attention and his
(08:30):
father was very scared and thenhe would went up to his face,
said three times do you want todie?
So that was anotherhospitalization, and this time
at a very reputable probably thebest in the country McLean
Hospital.
When they saw that he wasunwilling and unable to know
that he has a mental illness andthat he needs medical treatment
, despite his protest, they tookhim to court and had us testify
(08:54):
for two hours at a trial andthey actually did determine that
he needs six months of forcedhospitalization and forced
medicine, but they only kept himfor two months and again let
him go without any follow-upcare.
We need assisted outpatienttreatment in Massachusetts and
if McLean had that option, wewould have prevented what
(09:15):
happened 10 months later, whichwas the biggest disaster in his
young life and in our family'shistory, where he tried to kill
his own father, so that allcould have been prevented.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
So, with all this happening, how was he surviving?
How was he getting by day today with all these thoughts
going through his head, becauseevidently he was still in
psychosis?
How did he get from point A topoint B 10 months later without
some sort of intervention tohelp him?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
I think there was a gang in Boston that he happened
to be associated with externally, you know through high school
friends, and they sort of tookhim in and housed him and gave
him a place to stay and they gothim into some serious trouble,
I think because Nick got moreand more charges against him.
(10:13):
He kept getting in trouble withthe law.
But he had a place to stay, hewasn't homeless anymore.
Nick had to be homeless afterhe came home from being missing
three months because we were nowafraid of him for our own
physical safety.
So the homeless shelters didhouse him for periods of time
until they would kick him out.
(10:34):
He was kicked out twice from ahomeless shelter.
First once because he wasspeaking crazy, like he was
saying he was the creator, hewas the universe.
The second time was because hehad a knife.
So he was literally at the willof whoever would take him in.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Okay, so you just brought up the fact that he
thought he was the creator.
Can you explain anosognosia andwhat that is, so that the
listener can get a better graspfor understanding this whole
process that he's going through?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Well, you can have psychosis and the symptom of
anosognosia when you have theseillnesses brought on, possibly
from marijuana or from a geneticillness in your family history.
I'll do it through a story.
Nick and I went for a walk onthe beach when he came back from
being missing three months, andI'll never forget the moment he
(11:28):
turned to me.
He's like you know, I can hearand see aliens.
And I said, oh, I tried tosound normal and he said, yeah,
all I have to do is turn my headwithout my brain telling me to.
And I could see and hear thealien in the passenger seat in
the car.
I was living in Cape Cod in thewinter.
It didn't have a window.
I was trying to act normal andthen, you know, he was saying
(11:49):
things that I'd never heard himsay before, with total
conviction.
When I tried to say to him youknow, maybe you need some help,
he was looking at me like I wascrazy that there was something
wrong with me.
So when you see it and you hearit for the first time, you'll
never forget it, and most peoplego a lifetime never face to
face with something like this,especially with someone you know
(12:10):
.
So it was very scary.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
So when that happened , what was your next step?
You knew he needed help.
So when that happened, what wasyour next step?
You knew he needed help, sowhat was your next step?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
to help him, even though he thought in his mind he
didn't need any help at all.
I resorted to everything fromlooping in the rest of my family
and they were all verysupportive and trying so hard to
write emails and urge people togive him the help he needed.
It was only when he became soobvious that it was dangerous
(12:44):
that that was how he was gettingmedical treatment.
It took extreme measures, eventhe crisis lines, the 988,.
Nothing was working, becauseit's hard to believe unless
you're in front of it, and hecan pull himself together very
coherently in front ofprofessionals, and so it was
very difficult and we struggledwith that.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
So when he would get in front of professionals, he
would put himself in a situationso they would diagnose him as
being okay, but ultimately seemslike they would see through
that eventually.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Well, he definitely did not like being in a hospital
setting.
He definitely didn't think heneeded medical treatment.
So I think he would doeverything he can with his
intelligence to sound very, youknow, well-spoken.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Right.
So in that case, what do you do?
You have all these thingslining up that tell you there is
a problem and it definitely canget worse.
How do you handle that?
How do you get it across tothese people therapists, the
psychotherapists, the doctors,everyone that's involved in
(13:56):
diagnosing him how do you getthem to step up and say, look,
we need to help him?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
You would hope that professionals would pick up on
it and would know enough to askthe family members.
It wasn't until he tried tokill his father that the
witnesses that watched Nick atthe time of the attack described
how he was acting.
That it was more believablebecause it's not just family
(14:22):
trying to say, hey, you need topay attention, it was the actual
neighbors.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Okay.
So what happened next?
I've heard that people inpsychosis will do something and
then ultimately it lands themwithin the legal system.
Once they get in that legalsystem, sometimes they'll get
the medications that they needto at least tamper it down.
So did that happen at all?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
The police used pepper spray to stop him from
attacking his father outside onthe lawn and then used a
four-point restraint andprobably injection of some sort
of calming agent to get him intoa hospital setting.
The hospital spoke verystrongly to the courts because
the police followed him and youknow he was technically under
arrest at the time.
He was in the hospital, but thepolice called the courts and
asked the judge to just makesure that he is not punished but
(15:17):
given treatment instead.
So they sent him to jail.
They didn't believe that he wasmentally ill when he first
arrived after the attack fromthe hospital.
He stayed one night there.
They believed him when he saidhe's never been hospitalized
before.
He doesn't have a mentalillness, he's fine.
So the lawyer and the judgedecided to send him to jail.
(15:37):
Unfortunately, the ride over thedeputy in the van said he was
acting strangely, took off hisclothes.
He was definitely not well andthey brought him back for
competency restoration and hespent three months in the state
hospital where they wanted tokeep him for six more months and
give him the medicallynecessary treatment.
But in our state the psychiatricstate hospital is run by the
(16:00):
Department of Corrections andunfortunately they did not take
the advice of the clinicaldirector of the state hospital,
delaying the trial where theywould be given permission to
medicate him.
So he spent three months withno medication, suffering in
psychosis, untreated, in thatstate hospital, with all the
medical staff wantingdesperately to medicate him.
(16:22):
But the legal system theDepartment of Corrections had
the final say and they said nope, we're going to keep the court
case going and delaying.
And they even hired anindependent consultant, using
extra money, to come in andre-examine and re-evaluate the
forensic evaluation report tosay he has the right to refuse
(16:42):
medical treatment.
And when it came down to it,the judge deciding whether to
keep him at that state hospitaldenied the hospital's petition
because he said, and I quotethough Nick is delusional, he is
competent.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Okay.
So how can one be delusionaland competent at the same time?
Somehow this just doesn't makesense to me.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Which is a reflection on the training the judges in
Massachusetts have.
And if we had an assistedoutpatient treatment law, the
judges would work side by sidewith the psychiatrists and the
people with the medical training.
Mental illness is the only areathat depends on untrained
medical professionals to makemedical decisions for them.
(17:25):
You know, it's just, it's notright.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
No, it's not.
I've heard that the biggestinstitution for mental health
care is like the LA prison.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
So that's a problem.
When you hear things like that,that is a huge issue.
Unfortunately, the prisons arenot adapted to be a medical
facility, so this story andjourney that you've told me
seems to be one that is verycommon all across the country.
(17:58):
So that tells us that we reallyneed to find a way to marry the
legal system and the medicalsystem together so that we can
get something that works to putthese people that have these
issues in a place where theyreally need to be, so that way
they get the right help thatthey actually need.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
When I called the jail to tell them to watch out
for Nick's specific signs thathe's in psychosis, I was
transferred to the director ofall the security guards and he
was so good.
We talked for an hour and hesaid at one point you know, I'm
a parent myself, I've beenworking at this jail for 35
years and I've never seen thismany people with antipsychotic
(18:42):
medications prescribed in ourjail.
And he started gearing up.
He's like I don't know howyou're handling this as a parent
to watch your loved one be solost and but yet be incarcerated
.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
So what happened from there?
You got all these peoplerealizing that there is an issue
, he has a problem, yet nothingseems to be happening.
So what was next?
On the journey, has he gottenany help at all?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Well, that's where Ann came in.
She had the idea to write tothe judge His father, who was
the victim, write a letter andsay we're really concerned as
parents that there's no mentalhealth or medical treatment for
our son available.
So the judge made it possiblefor some probation and so for
that offense he is not sittingin jail right now he is out, but
(19:31):
he still has an ongoing casethat has a trial coming up.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
So, now that he's out , is he getting the help that he
needs?
Has he settled down at all, andhow's he doing?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Unfortunately he is not medicated still to this day
he is forced to see a therapist,which is better than nothing.
We are all as a family stillvery hesitant to visit with him
physically.
His unpredictability, and I ama little afraid of him right now
because he's still unaware.
He's mentally ill and he is notaware the danger he poses.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
So what's the answer?
He definitely needs some help.
He definitely needs hismedication so they can get back
to a more livable way of life.
So what's the answer?
How do we get there?
How do you get there so he canlive a better life?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Unfortunately it's a waiting game and, hoping you
know, I begged our Department ofMental Health to get him
services and they sent over arepresentative to the jail twice
asking Nick, will you pleasecome and get services from us?
And Nick politely refusedbecause he says he has no mental
illness and our state policiesare so backwards.
(20:46):
They say the only way you canget our Department of Mental
Health services is if youvolunteer for them.
But if you have anosognosia orlack of insight which, like
seven different medicalfacilities diagnosed him with,
he can't know he has an illness.
So it's like they'rediscriminating against him.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yeah, that's a very tough situation.
Now I've heard that they've gotalternative medicines now, like
a shot that can last up to 30days or more.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Oh, six months even, or a year.
They have all kinds oflong-acting injectable
antipsychotic medications andstreet psychiatrists who
administer them and they can beordered.
But in the state ofMassachusetts I think there are
more strict guides and it's justbeen difficult because of how
well and convincing he is whenhe's, you know, able to speak to
(21:35):
professionals.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, I've talked with several different people
and they tell me that whenthey've gone through psychosis
and different things of thatnature, that they've lost a
period of time.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
You can lose, yeah, memory of what happened.
In fact, that's what happenedwhen we asked him about certain
instances.
He doesn't recall saying ordoing the things he said and did
.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
That's what happens with psychosis that he could
actually figure out what mighthave been real is he looked at
it and if it seemed logical thenhe would go with it.
The rest he would just castaside yeah, because it's not
(22:22):
taught enough.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
we have a person in our organization living with
schizophrenia, daryl herman, whospeaks very plainly and clearly
about what psychosis is and thedelusions, the hallucinations.
These are things that come withpsychosis, that they're not
educating the patients enoughabout, and if they did know more
(22:43):
maybe they'd have a betterhandle on it.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, for sure you bring up Daryl.
He's been on the podcast Great.
Yes, he had a lot of greatinformation and I hope that
people get a lot from what hehad to say.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah, he speaks very clearly and intelligently.
He's done so much research.
He's had so many years oftalking and volunteering in
mental hospitals.
His knowledge is very valuable.
I'm glad he's on your show.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, he's been on and he, like you said, had just
superb information.
So, in closing, what would youlike to tell the listeners about
what you're going through, butnot only that information that
others might be going through,that they just need to know?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, you shouldn't punish someone for no-fault
brain illness that they weregiven, unfortunately, after
their legal age.
My son, when he was broughtover for the 72 court hearings
in the span of a very shortamount of time after his
psychotic break he was shuffledin and out of the van with no
windows for a two-hour commuteto the courthouse, from where he
(23:52):
was incarcerated in shacklesfrom his hands to his feet,
shuffling into the courtroom,standing in front of a judge,
not being able to even speakbecause the judge didn't call
upon him and he just told it'sgoing to be delayed again.
So five different courthouses,72 court appearances and all
this money could have gonetowards his treatment instead of
(24:12):
our taxpayer dollars going tothe courts.
This has to stop.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
So how long has this been happening?
How old is he now?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
23.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And it started three years ago 20.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
April of 2022, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, so about three years ago.
That's a lot of grief, a lot oftime, a lot of money that could
have been put into other areasfor sure.
Yeah, hopefully this will helpget the word out there, because
the biggest thing that I see isthe misunderstanding of it all
People that don't understandpsychosis.
(24:47):
When they hear about it, theythink that it's just someone
being bad, when in reality it'ssomeone that's doing some things
that appear to be bad, but theydon't think that it's bad.
That's why they need help.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Exactly, and they think they're even trying to
fight for their life.
You know, save someonedepending on the delusion.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Yeah, so hopefully we can get more education to the
judges, the lawyers, the DAs,the people that need to know, so
that way the money that's beingspent when these people go in
front of them is being spent ondifferent alternatives, which
actually would help the personthat needs it the most.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
The medical students as well as the medical
professionals.
Some of them aren't asexperienced with people with
anosognosia because, frankly,they're not getting in front of
them often enough.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
You saw how hard it was for me to get my son in
front of a professional.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah right.
Well, this has been greatinformation.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Of course.
Thank you for having me, Thankyou for giving a chance to the
voices of the people who areincarcerated.
Their families watched withhelplessness and tiredness
because their hearts are brokenevery day.
So you giving a voice to themis a real gift.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Well, thanks for your kind words.
I appreciate you coming on.
Thanks again, thanks for takingthe time out of your busy
schedule to listen to our showtoday.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(26:28):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(26:48):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, Broadcasting from
Music City, USA, Nashville,Tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:29):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:53):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is LauraKrachun.
She's a passionate mentalhealth advocate, collaborating
with organizations like theNational Shattering Silence
Coalition.
Today, she's here to share herson's journey with serious
(01:14):
mental illness, offeringvaluable insights to support
others that may be facingsimilar challenges.
We will also discuss assistedoutpatient treatment laws and
the rising issue ofcannabis-induced psychosis among
teens and young adults.
She has a wealth of informationand we're pleased to have her
here to share her story with us.
(01:36):
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I'm very honored.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Oh, it's my pleasure.
Now I understand that you'repart of a charity that supports
mental illness, Can you?
I understand that you're partof a charity that supports
mental illness.
Can you expand on that?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I found National Shattering Silence Coalition
after my son, who hasschizoaffective disorder,
attempted to kill his own father.
The police had reached out tome afterwards and said you
really should get some supportfor your family going and join a
NAMI chapter.
The NAMI chapter put me intouch with National Shattering
(02:10):
Silence and ever since then Ifelt like the most support I've
ever had with my son's illness,which he's been battling since
17 years old and now he's 23.
So it was as if I had apartnership.
So National Shattering SilenceCoalition is made up of peers,
family members, medical, legallaw professionals, concerned
(02:32):
citizens that are all to do withserious mental illness,
specifically the ones that arethe most challenging cases with
psychosis like schizophrenia,schizoaffective, bipolar with
psychotic features anddrug-induced psychosis.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay.
So when your son first startedhaving some of the issues that
he was facing, how did youhandle it?
I mean, when people firstencounter psychosis or anything
along that line, it's the bigunknown.
They don't know what to do.
They don't know what to expect.
It's just a very scary time forthem.
(03:11):
So, with all this going on, howdid you handle it?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I had some experience in this because I myself suffer
with bipolar since the age of17.
So I've been medicated from age30 when I was diagnosed after my
two sons were born, and havestayed on medications gratefully
, because I know how much theywork.
When my sons were born, I waswatching out to see if they may
(03:37):
show symptoms and signs.
Despite my fear that my youngerson had bipolar, every
neurologist and psychiatrist andtherapist and school
professional kept saying no, itwas just ADHD.
He suffered, unfortunately evenin the school systems, with
ADHD being misdiagnosed as thatdisorder instead of bipolar, and
(04:02):
so by the time he reachedsenior year he was already
acting so bizarrely that we hadthe suspicions confirmed and he
had to be forced into ahospitalization during the
middle of his senior year inhigh school.
So I was dealing with how tohandle his illness when it came
about in a stronger way at age20, with less experience,
(04:25):
because his bipolar alsoincluded psychotic features and
I never had those.
My family wasn't familiar withit either.
He had been smoking marijuana,and they say that marijuana
induces mania and psychosis tosuch a degree that it could
actually instigate a strongerform of the illness.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, I have heard that from a couple of different
sources.
So he was 20 when this firststarted.
So what happened?
From there, he was starting tohave some symptoms.
So what happened that led youto get more information, to try
and get more diagnosis of whatwas going on, so you could get
(05:06):
this under control.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Well, I got a phone call from a friend's parent, a
father, and he was concerned formy son.
He said I think he's sick, Ithink he's not well just like my
own family member and I can'tfind him.
He's missing.
He used to be staying with usand that's when I made a call
out to my friends and communityto help me find him.
(05:30):
He had disappeared with no wordto his friends or anyone where
he was, and a search and rescuewent on and dogs and all kinds
of police investigation andinterviews happened, and for
three months we were certainwe'd lost him forever.
When he came back, I wouldnormally think that you'd be
(05:50):
relieved, but I actually beganthe bigger nightmare when he
came back, because he was sodifferent looking and acting
than anything I'd been familiarwith him before.
So I think the summer of July2022, he was in and out of
psychosis, which is a strangebehavior that can drift in and
(06:12):
out without any warning.
So it's very disconcerting andit was shocking.
So we had a difficult timegetting a grasp on how to handle
it and we tried our emergencyservices and behavioral health
lines and crisis lines.
Nobody seemed to help us reallyget him the treatment he needed
(06:33):
.
In fact, a hospital turned usaway when we brought him to the
ER because they said well, youknow he can be crazy, but if
he's not a harm to himself orothers, then we can't keep him
here.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
But if he's not a harm to himself or others, then
we can't keep him here.
Yes, I've heard that from manyothers, that if there's not an
immediate danger to him orothers that they turn away.
So what was your next step?
I mean, he may not be harm tohimself or others at that point
in time, but over a period oftime it could be a day or an
(07:05):
hour or a week it could develop.
So what did you do to try andget it more under control so
that he could move forward?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Well, we attempted 16 times with police and ERs.
Then at one point the policehad to come to the house.
There were eight EMTprofessionals that were called
in because he kept pointing ateveryone, saying you know, look
at me, look at me.
Because he believed he couldcontrol you with his eyes and he
(07:34):
was saying things like I'mfaster than a speeding bullet
and he was acting psychotic.
So they put him in a four-pointrestraint and took him to the
hospital.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
What happened next?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
They put him in a four-point restraint and took
him to the hospital.
What happened next?
The physician took us in a roomand said if Nick smokes
marijuana one more time, hecould have treatment-resistant
bipolar with psychotic features.
This was the first we'd everheard that and that's when we
were finally going to get thehelp we needed.
And they put him in a forcedhospitalization for a month in
Worcester and let him go withjust a bottle of pills saying
(08:08):
you know, take this medicine.
When he came out he was stillpsychotic.
He did not believe he wasmentally ill and he wasn't
better.
In fact, he was quite angry,from just acting crazy to
holding a knife when it wasbeing used to chop some chicken
on the blade end in order to gethis father's attention and his
(08:30):
father was very scared and thenhe would went up to his face,
said three times do you want todie?
So that was anotherhospitalization, and this time
at a very reputable probably thebest in the country McLean
Hospital.
When they saw that he wasunwilling and unable to know
that he has a mental illness andthat he needs medical treatment
, despite his protest, they tookhim to court and had us testify
(08:54):
for two hours at a trial andthey actually did determine that
he needs six months of forcedhospitalization and forced
medicine, but they only kept himfor two months and again let
him go without any follow-upcare.
We need assisted outpatienttreatment in Massachusetts and
if McLean had that option, wewould have prevented what
(09:15):
happened 10 months later, whichwas the biggest disaster in his
young life and in our family'shistory, where he tried to kill
his own father, so that allcould have been prevented.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
So, with all this happening, how was he surviving?
How was he getting by day today with all these thoughts
going through his head, becauseevidently he was still in
psychosis?
How did he get from point A topoint B 10 months later without
some sort of intervention tohelp him?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
I think there was a gang in Boston that he happened
to be associated with externally, you know through high school
friends, and they sort of tookhim in and housed him and gave
him a place to stay and they gothim into some serious trouble,
I think because Nick got moreand more charges against him.
(10:13):
He kept getting in trouble withthe law.
But he had a place to stay, hewasn't homeless anymore.
Nick had to be homeless afterhe came home from being missing
three months because we were nowafraid of him for our own
physical safety.
So the homeless shelters didhouse him for periods of time
until they would kick him out.
(10:34):
He was kicked out twice from ahomeless shelter.
First once because he wasspeaking crazy, like he was
saying he was the creator, hewas the universe.
The second time was because hehad a knife.
So he was literally at the willof whoever would take him in.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Okay, so you just brought up the fact that he
thought he was the creator.
Can you explain anosognosia andwhat that is, so that the
listener can get a better graspfor understanding this whole
process that he's going through?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Well, you can have psychosis and the symptom of
anosognosia when you have theseillnesses brought on, possibly
from marijuana or from a geneticillness in your family history.
I'll do it through a story.
Nick and I went for a walk onthe beach when he came back from
being missing three months, andI'll never forget the moment he
(11:28):
turned to me.
He's like you know, I can hearand see aliens.
And I said, oh, I tried tosound normal and he said, yeah,
all I have to do is turn my headwithout my brain telling me to.
And I could see and hear thealien in the passenger seat in
the car.
I was living in Cape Cod in thewinter.
It didn't have a window.
I was trying to act normal andthen, you know, he was saying
(11:49):
things that I'd never heard himsay before, with total
conviction.
When I tried to say to him youknow, maybe you need some help,
he was looking at me like I wascrazy that there was something
wrong with me.
So when you see it and you hearit for the first time, you'll
never forget it, and most peoplego a lifetime never face to
face with something like this,especially with someone you know
(12:10):
.
So it was very scary.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
So when that happened , what was your next step?
You knew he needed help.
So when that happened, what wasyour next step?
You knew he needed help, sowhat was your next step?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
to help him, even though he thought in his mind he
didn't need any help at all.
I resorted to everything fromlooping in the rest of my family
and they were all verysupportive and trying so hard to
write emails and urge people togive him the help he needed.
It was only when he became soobvious that it was dangerous
(12:44):
that that was how he was gettingmedical treatment.
It took extreme measures, eventhe crisis lines, the 988,.
Nothing was working, becauseit's hard to believe unless
you're in front of it, and hecan pull himself together very
coherently in front ofprofessionals, and so it was
very difficult and we struggledwith that.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
So when he would get in front of professionals, he
would put himself in a situationso they would diagnose him as
being okay, but ultimately seemslike they would see through
that eventually.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Well, he definitely did not like being in a hospital
setting.
He definitely didn't think heneeded medical treatment.
So I think he would doeverything he can with his
intelligence to sound very, youknow, well-spoken.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Right.
So in that case, what do you do?
You have all these thingslining up that tell you there is
a problem and it definitely canget worse.
How do you handle that?
How do you get it across tothese people therapists, the
psychotherapists, the doctors,everyone that's involved in
(13:56):
diagnosing him how do you getthem to step up and say, look,
we need to help him?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
You would hope that professionals would pick up on
it and would know enough to askthe family members.
It wasn't until he tried tokill his father that the
witnesses that watched Nick atthe time of the attack described
how he was acting.
That it was more believablebecause it's not just family
(14:22):
trying to say, hey, you need topay attention, it was the actual
neighbors.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Okay.
So what happened next?
I've heard that people inpsychosis will do something and
then ultimately it lands themwithin the legal system.
Once they get in that legalsystem, sometimes they'll get
the medications that they needto at least tamper it down.
So did that happen at all?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
The police used pepper spray to stop him from
attacking his father outside onthe lawn and then used a
four-point restraint andprobably injection of some sort
of calming agent to get him intoa hospital setting.
The hospital spoke verystrongly to the courts because
the police followed him and youknow he was technically under
arrest at the time.
He was in the hospital, but thepolice called the courts and
asked the judge to just makesure that he is not punished but
(15:17):
given treatment instead.
So they sent him to jail.
They didn't believe that he wasmentally ill when he first
arrived after the attack fromthe hospital.
He stayed one night there.
They believed him when he saidhe's never been hospitalized
before.
He doesn't have a mentalillness, he's fine.
So the lawyer and the judgedecided to send him to jail.
(15:37):
Unfortunately, the ride over thedeputy in the van said he was
acting strangely, took off hisclothes.
He was definitely not well andthey brought him back for
competency restoration and hespent three months in the state
hospital where they wanted tokeep him for six more months and
give him the medicallynecessary treatment.
But in our state the psychiatricstate hospital is run by the
(16:00):
Department of Corrections andunfortunately they did not take
the advice of the clinicaldirector of the state hospital,
delaying the trial where theywould be given permission to
medicate him.
So he spent three months withno medication, suffering in
psychosis, untreated, in thatstate hospital, with all the
medical staff wantingdesperately to medicate him.
(16:22):
But the legal system theDepartment of Corrections had
the final say and they said nope, we're going to keep the court
case going and delaying.
And they even hired anindependent consultant, using
extra money, to come in andre-examine and re-evaluate the
forensic evaluation report tosay he has the right to refuse
(16:42):
medical treatment.
And when it came down to it,the judge deciding whether to
keep him at that state hospitaldenied the hospital's petition
because he said, and I quotethough Nick is delusional, he is
competent.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Okay.
So how can one be delusionaland competent at the same time?
Somehow this just doesn't makesense to me.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Which is a reflection on the training the judges in
Massachusetts have.
And if we had an assistedoutpatient treatment law, the
judges would work side by sidewith the psychiatrists and the
people with the medical training.
Mental illness is the only areathat depends on untrained
medical professionals to makemedical decisions for them.
(17:25):
You know, it's just, it's notright.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
No, it's not.
I've heard that the biggestinstitution for mental health
care is like the LA prison.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
So that's a problem.
When you hear things like that,that is a huge issue.
Unfortunately, the prisons arenot adapted to be a medical
facility, so this story andjourney that you've told me
seems to be one that is verycommon all across the country.
(17:58):
So that tells us that we reallyneed to find a way to marry the
legal system and the medicalsystem together so that we can
get something that works to putthese people that have these
issues in a place where theyreally need to be, so that way
they get the right help thatthey actually need.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
When I called the jail to tell them to watch out
for Nick's specific signs thathe's in psychosis, I was
transferred to the director ofall the security guards and he
was so good.
We talked for an hour and hesaid at one point you know, I'm
a parent myself, I've beenworking at this jail for 35
years and I've never seen thismany people with antipsychotic
(18:42):
medications prescribed in ourjail.
And he started gearing up.
He's like I don't know howyou're handling this as a parent
to watch your loved one be solost and but yet be incarcerated
.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
So what happened from there?
You got all these peoplerealizing that there is an issue
, he has a problem, yet nothingseems to be happening.
So what was next?
On the journey, has he gottenany help at all?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Well, that's where Ann came in.
She had the idea to write tothe judge His father, who was
the victim, write a letter andsay we're really concerned as
parents that there's no mentalhealth or medical treatment for
our son available.
So the judge made it possiblefor some probation and so for
that offense he is not sittingin jail right now he is out, but
(19:31):
he still has an ongoing casethat has a trial coming up.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
So, now that he's out , is he getting the help that he
needs?
Has he settled down at all, andhow's he doing?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Unfortunately he is not medicated still to this day
he is forced to see a therapist,which is better than nothing.
We are all as a family stillvery hesitant to visit with him
physically.
His unpredictability, and I ama little afraid of him right now
because he's still unaware.
He's mentally ill and he is notaware the danger he poses.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
So what's the answer?
He definitely needs some help.
He definitely needs hismedication so they can get back
to a more livable way of life.
So what's the answer?
How do we get there?
How do you get there so he canlive a better life?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Unfortunately it's a waiting game and, hoping you
know, I begged our Department ofMental Health to get him
services and they sent over arepresentative to the jail twice
asking Nick, will you pleasecome and get services from us?
And Nick politely refusedbecause he says he has no mental
illness and our state policiesare so backwards.
(20:46):
They say the only way you canget our Department of Mental
Health services is if youvolunteer for them.
But if you have anosognosia orlack of insight which, like
seven different medicalfacilities diagnosed him with,
he can't know he has an illness.
So it's like they'rediscriminating against him.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yeah, that's a very tough situation.
Now I've heard that they've gotalternative medicines now, like
a shot that can last up to 30days or more.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Oh, six months even, or a year.
They have all kinds oflong-acting injectable
antipsychotic medications andstreet psychiatrists who
administer them and they can beordered.
But in the state ofMassachusetts I think there are
more strict guides and it's justbeen difficult because of how
well and convincing he is whenhe's, you know, able to speak to
(21:35):
professionals.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, I've talked with several different people
and they tell me that whenthey've gone through psychosis
and different things of thatnature, that they've lost a
period of time.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
You can lose, yeah, memory of what happened.
In fact, that's what happenedwhen we asked him about certain
instances.
He doesn't recall saying ordoing the things he said and did
.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
That's what happens with psychosis that he could
actually figure out what mighthave been real is he looked at
it and if it seemed logical thenhe would go with it.
The rest he would just castaside yeah, because it's not
(22:22):
taught enough.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
we have a person in our organization living with
schizophrenia, daryl herman, whospeaks very plainly and clearly
about what psychosis is and thedelusions, the hallucinations.
These are things that come withpsychosis, that they're not
educating the patients enoughabout, and if they did know more
(22:43):
maybe they'd have a betterhandle on it.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, for sure you bring up Daryl.
He's been on the podcast Great.
Yes, he had a lot of greatinformation and I hope that
people get a lot from what hehad to say.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah, he speaks very clearly and intelligently.
He's done so much research.
He's had so many years oftalking and volunteering in
mental hospitals.
His knowledge is very valuable.
I'm glad he's on your show.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, he's been on and he, like you said, had just
superb information.
So, in closing, what would youlike to tell the listeners about
what you're going through, butnot only that information that
others might be going through,that they just need to know?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, you shouldn't punish someone for no-fault
brain illness that they weregiven, unfortunately, after
their legal age.
My son, when he was broughtover for the 72 court hearings
in the span of a very shortamount of time after his
psychotic break he was shuffledin and out of the van with no
windows for a two-hour commuteto the courthouse, from where he
(23:52):
was incarcerated in shacklesfrom his hands to his feet,
shuffling into the courtroom,standing in front of a judge,
not being able to even speakbecause the judge didn't call
upon him and he just told it'sgoing to be delayed again.
So five different courthouses,72 court appearances and all
this money could have gonetowards his treatment instead of
(24:12):
our taxpayer dollars going tothe courts.
This has to stop.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
So how long has this been happening?
How old is he now?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
23.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And it started three years ago 20.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
April of 2022, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, so about three years ago.
That's a lot of grief, a lot oftime, a lot of money that could
have been put into other areasfor sure.
Yeah, hopefully this will helpget the word out there, because
the biggest thing that I see isthe misunderstanding of it all
People that don't understandpsychosis.
(24:47):
When they hear about it, theythink that it's just someone
being bad, when in reality it'ssomeone that's doing some things
that appear to be bad, but theydon't think that it's bad.
That's why they need help.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Exactly, and they think they're even trying to
fight for their life.
You know, save someonedepending on the delusion.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Yeah, so hopefully we can get more education to the
judges, the lawyers, the DAs,the people that need to know, so
that way the money that's beingspent when these people go in
front of them is being spent ondifferent alternatives, which
actually would help the personthat needs it the most.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
The medical students as well as the medical
professionals.
Some of them aren't asexperienced with people with
anosognosia because, frankly,they're not getting in front of
them often enough.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
You saw how hard it was for me to get my son in
front of a professional.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah right.
Well, this has been greatinformation.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Of course.
Thank you for having me, Thankyou for giving a chance to the
voices of the people who areincarcerated.
Their families watched withhelplessness and tiredness
because their hearts are brokenevery day.
So you giving a voice to themis a real gift.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Well, thanks for your kind words.
I appreciate you coming on.
Thanks again, thanks for takingthe time out of your busy
schedule to listen to our showtoday.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(26:28):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(26:48):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
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