April 2, 2025 • 30 mins
Dr. Theresa Haskins shares her journey from a mother seeking answers for her autistic son to becoming an educator and researcher dedicated to creating more inclusive systems for neurodivergent individuals.
Her experiences navigating medical dismissals, educational barriers, and workplace challenges illuminate how society needs to fundamentally shift its approach to neurodiversity.
• Mother of a "thrice exceptional" son (autistic, ADHD, and gifted) who could count to 100 at age two but wasn't speaking conversationally
• Left special education program after realizing conventional teaching approaches didn't align with her son's needs
• Pursued educational psychology and doctorate degrees to understand how to change systems, not just help individuals adapt
• Advocates for autonomous learning and choice-making rather than taking away agency from neurodivergent individuals
• Challenges organizations to focus on meeting people's needs without requiring them to "prove" their disability
• Questions arbitrary job requirements that create barriers for neurodivergent talent
• Emphasizes that different developmental paths aren't lesser ones – just different
• Works with universities, government agencies, and organizations to implement neurodiversity-affirming practices
• Promotes universal design principles that benefit everyone, not just those with disabilities
• Believes we need to value diverse skills and stop measuring everyone against neurotypical milestones
You and your family matter. You exist, you deserve to thrive, you deserve education, you deserve gainful employment, you deserve respect, and that's what we work towards.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me , the World podcast, hosted by
Tony Mantor, broadcasting fromMusic City, usa, nashville,
tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:28):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantour.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me, theWorld.
Joining us today is TeresaHaskins, an educator, researcher
and, notably, a mother with anautistic child.
Her journey began seekinganswers, which led to providing
those answers by immersingherself in learning.
This led to her teaching othershow to help themselves find
(01:17):
success and achieve their fullpotential in a more diverse,
inclusive and equitable world.
It's a pleasure to have her onto share her expertise with us.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
If you would, let's just tell people what you do and
how you got there.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
So currently there's a lot of things going on.
I have a multitude of roles.
I'm a professor at theUniversity of Southern
California, I teach graduatestudies in human resource
management and I work there toreally push a neurodiversity
lens to help future leadersreally try to get a better sense
(01:57):
of how to be more accommodatingand as part of the university
then I started to see some ofthe issues in higher education,
where I work with faculty sothat they're more inclusive and
how they're designing theirlearning and working with
students.
But all of this actually cameabout almost well.
It's 18 years ago.
(02:17):
Today I do consulting and upuntil recently I was working
with a lot of governmentagencies on how to build more
neuro-inclusive teams and wewere really making a lot of
government agencies on how tobuild more neuroinclusive teams
and we were really making a lotof headway in that space and I
believe that traction will stick, regardless of current
sentiment.
But it all started with my son.
When you have your first child,or any children, you have
(02:39):
visions of what life will be.
My son was a surprise, so youknow his first year of
development seemed fairlytypical until we started to get
into the social components thatyou would start to anticipate
your child to engage in.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
What were some of the things that you noticed he
wasn't doing that you thought heshould have been doing?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
So he didn't wave and he didn't say hello or goodbye
or any of those things.
And as he was pushing towardstwo, he could speak.
And I always like to qualifythat, that when I say my son
didn't talk, he didn't talkreciprocally, but he could speak
.
So he could count to 100.
He knew his ABCs, but he didn'tsay hello or goodbye.
(03:23):
So you know there's definitelysomething going on there.
And so you talk to thepediatrician and they're like,
don't worry about it, kidsdevelop differently.
I'm like, yeah, but this isdifferent, different, right,
he's not meeting some of thosebenchmarks that we have in the
developmental checklist.
So they, you know, they sendthem to audiologists.
They check their hearing, theycheck their eyesight, like
(03:45):
they're looking for somephysical problem, until they
come to the conclusion there'sno physical problem.
And that leads you to meetingwith psychiatrists.
And in our case, our son isthrice exceptional.
People say twice exceptionalbut he actually is autistic,
pdd-nos by the DSM-IV, he's ADHDand he's gifted.
(04:09):
He has an IQ of about 150.
So that would explain why hewas able to read and write by
the age of three, but he stillwasn't talking conversationally.
So when you have this extremelybright but a typically
developing child, you start tothink about how is this going to
work?
And so, like many parentsbecause this was before I was Dr
(04:30):
Haskins, I didn't even have mymaster's yet.
At the time I was just a momand my husband was just a dad
and we were just trying to getthrough life right and so we
have this amazing little boythat's just doing all these
really cool things that nobodypays attention to.
You know, we talked about howhe could count to 100.
And you know, he was a littlebit like the WB frog, so if you
brought him somewhere and askedhim to do something he wouldn't
(04:52):
perform.
So then it's the parents sayingthese things happen and they're
like oh, that's probably justseculalia, he's probably just
repeating you, you're traininghim to do this stuff.
I was not training my son to doanything.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
That must have been really frustrating to deal with
when you know what you know as amother.
So how did you handle it?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
So you're met with all this disbelief and it was
really, really aggravating, butthey're little and you figure
they'll develop in time.
And you also.
As a society, we believe thatdoctors and psychiatrists and
teachers know things.
We want to have belief thatwhen they're telling us stuff
it's true, and so when they'retelling you that your son can't
(05:33):
do this or your daughter can'tdo that or whatever you're being
told this week, you believethem.
The great news is that I haveeyes and ears in my own brain
and I could hear what they weresaying and I knew what I lived
and I knew what they were sayingand I knew what I lived and I
knew what I was doing and I knewthey were wrong.
I thought I'd go back to schooland become a special educator
and I only spent six months inthat program, one semester I
(05:54):
guess.
So that's a little less thansix months and my first class.
I mean everything was fine, butwhat they were teaching was
just wrong.
I just knew it was wrong,because it was like hearing the
same rhetoric that I was hearingwith doctors and psychologists
of do these things.
And I knew those things weren'tright.
And so I raised my hand and Isaid hey, who comes up with this
stuff?
And that isn't quite how I saidit, but I'll be nice on your
podcast and the professor saideasy, educational psychologists
(06:18):
do.
He goes.
You know, to be a specialeducator you have to use
evidence-based methodologies.
You can't just make things upand I go, somebody's making this
stuff up?
And I go who does that?
And he goes educationalpsychologists.
I go, how do I become one ofthem?
So I dropped out of thatprogram and I rolled in a
master's program and I got mydegree in educational psychology
.
Around the same time my sonwould get close to school age,
(06:40):
so we would go through thatrigmarole because at that point
in time I still thought my kidwould go to school.
I went to school, you probablywent to school.
I don't know anything abouthomeschooling.
I'm not an educator at thistime.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
With all this happening, what was your next
plan of action?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So he goes for intelligence testing and after
three days they stopped thetesting because they could have
went further, but by statestandards, high enough.
He gets like an IQ of 152 orsomething like that and they're
like that's high enough for ourpurposes.
He was testing in eighth grademath.
He's five years old and sowe're sitting there.
He should be enteringkindergarten and we have like
(07:17):
the first grade and the secondgrade and the third grade people
all sitting around the tableand the principal and the
educational psychologist arelike we hear what you're saying
about his intelligence, butbased on his social deficits, he
really should be inkindergarten because we want him
to develop with his peers.
And then you could look at theteachers going.
What are we going to teach?
Like, what are we going to dowith him all day?
You know, like he was alreadyreading to.
(07:38):
He was like in a developmentalpreschool class to get some
socialization and he would readto the other kids.
He was four.
So my husband and I left thatand I'm like this isn't going to
work and so we were like Iguess we'll have to homeschool
him.
So my husband got the hard job.
He actually had to do thehomeschooling of the
(07:58):
homeschooling and I continue tolike do my studies and get my
degrees and try to figure outhow to do this stuff.
Granted, like my story is not ahomeschooling story, but my
story is there was no system tosupport us, there were no
answers, there were no resources, no one really knew what to do.
You know, when I asked, well,could he come to school?
(08:20):
You know, maybe start in firstor second grade socially and
then maybe go to the high schoolto take some physics classes?
And like we can't have afive-year-old in the high school
, like the system's not builtfor a child like that.
And so we exited the system andI started studying and testing
my theories.
So everything I did with my son, I started to research.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
With all the emotions going on the ups and downs,
researching seemed to be a goodthing.
Where did that path of research?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
lead you.
I tested choice-making andautonomous learning, because one
of the first things we do toautistic children is take away
all sense of choice.
Having a set schedule isdifferent than taking away
autonomy and choice, and what Ifound in my life is that,
whether it's a disabled person,a child, an elderly person, a
disengaged person, first thingwe do is take away choice and
(09:10):
start to micromanage them and wetake away all their identity
and sense of self and we stoplistening and we start becoming
extremely prescriptive and it'shorribly dangerous.
I knew my son would be educatedbecause I could handle that and
I've been in corporate Americaand working with entities I hate
to admit it, tony, pushingthree decades now and I knew
(09:33):
that, what I was doing with himand how he was developing.
But then I would be sitting inboard meetings and talent
discussions and like, even if Iget my son educated, what's
going to happen next?
Because, based on the peopleI'm talking with, no one's ever
going to hire him.
So that's when I went to get mydoctorate and I'm like now I
got to figure out how we changesystems, how do we change
organizations.
(09:53):
So I went from how do weeducate these individuals,
create more inclusive classrooms, create more pathways,
opportunities, differentiatedinstruction and self-directed
learning.
And then that pivoted to how dowe create more accessible
skills-based which is ironicbecause that's a word being used
right now, but most of ourinterview protocol and talent
(10:17):
assessment is based onextroverted engagement, meaning
how we communicate.
Whether you tell a good storyyou could be getting a job in
accounting, tony and they'lljudge you on how you answer that
question right.
So somebody like me I know I'verambled for a bit they're
expecting that two-minute answer.
I give you a 20-minute answer,right?
And so the neurodivergencystarts coming out.
So I've really been workingwith organizations about really
(10:40):
thinking about.
When you say you want the besttalent, how are you defining
that, who are you reallyincluding and how are you
judging it?
And you know, 100, 200 yearsago, introversion was king.
It was the quiet,methodological person that was
the most valued, and now it'sextroversion and charisma.
As those tides shift, how do wemake sure we're bringing
everybody along?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
That's a great question.
What are you implementing totry and, hopefully, change some
of this?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
The things I do.
I educate future leaders, Idevelop programs for autistic
individuals and their familiesto try to figure out their own
pathways, because there is noset path.
One of the things I tellparents all the time is people
want a box solution.
There is no box solution.
It's not the answer you want.
If we're going to believe thatautism is a spectrum I know
(11:28):
you've had people tell you that,that there's no two people with
autism alike If you believethat, then you know there's no
box solution and so it's reallybeing malleable.
And that's why I don't havesome 10 method pathway of
success, because I can't tell alie and it just wouldn't be true
.
I really work organically withleaders and parents and
(11:49):
organizations to understand howwould it work here, because your
path to success at thisuniversity will be different
than your path to success atthis government entity.
Don't want to say any othernames because I want them to
continue the good work thatthose paths are going to be very
unique to you, just like theindividuals you're trying to.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, when you meet someone for the first time,
you're trying to explain to themwhat you just explained to me.
How do you get that across?
There's this big mystery insome people's minds on what
autism is.
For example, when I firststarted my podcast, I knew
nothing about autism Zero.
(12:31):
Now, a year and a half later,I've gathered enough information
where I can understand whatpeople are saying.
I can follow along A lot ofpeople out there.
When you mention autism, theythink Rain man, which is so far
from the truth.
So how do you try to createthat bridge?
So the gap between the knownand unknown is a little bit
(12:53):
better for those that don'tunderstand autism.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
How do you bridge that?
So it's an interesting thing,tony, because if you met me 10
years ago, we would spend a lotof time.
I would spend a lot of matterhow I try to explain autism to
you.
You will start to develop acaricature and scheme of that
(13:28):
individual.
It may be true sometimes, butit may not be true all the time.
So instead and this happenedlast year I was doing a thing
and they're like but how do Iknow if they have autism or ADHD
?
So I know I should support themand I've been trying to unpack
that in.
Are you willing to supportpeople and meet them where they
are?
Would you be willing to workwith somebody who communicates
(13:49):
differently?
Would you be willing to workwith people that need directions
in writing?
Would you be willing to givepeople extra time on a test?
Does it really matter why theyneed it More?
So does somebody have to have adocumented disability for you
to want to meet them where theyare?
Tony, I mean, being short isnot a documented disability, but
(14:09):
I can assure you I amcompletely disabled at the Home
Depot when I want something onthe top shelf.
So what I've really been workingwith leaders is stop worrying
about my son's disability or mydeficits or somebody with ADHDs.
Ask people what they need to besuccessful.
Assess what you're doing.
That could create roadblocks.
(14:30):
If I have sensory processingissues, I'll tell you that I
need a quiet work environment.
Be willing to give me thatquiet work environment.
If I tell you that peoplewalking into my office is
distracting, then respect thatand give me a door to close or
maybe let me work from home.
What I find is that theaccommodations view, the ADA
(14:51):
view of reasonable accommodation, puts this.
It's an othering where it'slike well, if I think less of
you because you need help, thenI'll give you the support you
need.
And where that neurodiversitymovement is coming in and where
I like work with professors andleaders is saying if somebody
tells you they need something,believe them.
(15:13):
And, more importantly, whywouldn't you give people the
supports they need to succeedand I'm really trying to take it
away from prove to me you havea problem, so I will help you
and get it to.
Why wouldn't we help anybody?
One of the biggest things I see,tony, which is why I work more
with leaders and educationalinstitutions and not individuals
, is I'm frankly tired of theautistic community being asked
(15:38):
to change in some way and, inessence, be less disabled to
succeed.
We don't ask blind people to beless blind.
We don't try to give themtraining on how to navigate to
pretend they're less blind.
And if we actually believe thatautism is a neurological
difference I know there's peoplethat want to debate whether
it's a disability or not but oursociety creates conditions that
(16:00):
are disabling.
And if we believe that to betrue, then we can't ask autistic
people to try to be lessautistic.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
That's a great point.
How do we move forward fromthat?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I think it's great there are a lot of people that
help autistic peopleself-advocate.
Obviously, I want my son tohave the skills to be able to
ask for what he needs, but it isnot on him or me to install
elevators and ramps in abuilding, right, and so the onus
really is on the other side andthe other side doesn't have to
(16:32):
understand autism, right.
You don't have to understandcerebral palsy, you don't have
to understand all the differentconditions that can result in
somebody being blind and deaf tounderstand that there's a need
there that needs to beaccommodated.
So I've been really trying toget people to don't overly worry
whether or not somebody hasADHD or autism, because I did
have a CEO who goes.
(16:52):
But how do I know?
If they're really ADHD?
I go, does it matter?
What about if they're just atypical person that's
introverted and focuses betterin a quiet room, create, and so
that's where that concept ofuniversal design comes from.
That's where this concept ofneurodiversity comes from, and I
think that, especially whenwe're in an environment where
(17:13):
people are charged about,everything should be fair and
equal.
Then let's do that.
Let's create accessibleorganizations, let's create the
lifts and ramps of the autismcommunity, because we know what
those structures are from ageneralized perspective and if
we incorporate more skill basedassessments, less dependency on
(17:33):
your ability to churn a catchyphrase like I didn't know, tony,
that every person applying fora job had to be a marketing
expert.
Right, how they craft a resume.
Come on, if you can take acourse to get a job.
They're not hiring you for yourskills, they're hiring you for
a clip, and that's just notright.
So that's what I've really beentrying to work Like if you're
(17:54):
hiring an accountant, why dothey have to have great
communication skills?
What are you actually askingthat accountant to do?
That's why I think, especiallyon the autism side, when we saw
autism at work and all thoseinitiatives, that's why it was
in the tech space, because thosewere the leaders that were the
first to say you're right, theydon't have to be great
communicators.
You're right, I'm not reallylooking at their ability to make
(18:15):
friends, I need them to code orI need them to do technical
work, and that's why we've seenso much more traction on that
side, because we could getleaders to get it.
And so that's how I helpleaders come along.
I actually try to shut down themedical model of conversation
and, by the way, in mostcountries you're not even really
(18:36):
permitted to ask thosequestions Like if it was a
medical diagnosis.
They're not supposed to askabout your cancer diagnosis.
So we have to be very carefulabout, well, how does your
autism manifest?
None of your business, but I doneed a quiet workspace.
I do need you to follow up withmeeting notes, and having an
agenda before the meeting wouldbe helpful too.
When you say it that way, thethings I just asked for aren't
(18:59):
even unreasonable.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, when I spoke with Temple Grandin she said
give me a pilot's checklist,I'll get it done.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
That's it and I'll be honest.
Tony and anybody listening,look at a job requisition.
And how much is that somebody'sperception of the skills you
need to do the job?
Because that's probably theskills they have.
And can you tell me, based onthat job, if you actually know
what your job was going to beLike?
They'll say, oh, I need you tobe able to chop onions and I
(19:28):
need you to be able to saute Inthe job requisition does it
actually tell you what type offood you're going to cook?
Because that's going to tell youa lot more.
Like McDonald's and GordonRamsay all hire cooks.
What they're cooking and theskill level involved is quite
different, but their jobrequisitions would probably not
read that differently, andthat's the problem.
So I tell people, if you wantinnovation and you want
(19:51):
creativity, of course we want topromote the autistic side of
the house, but the truth is isyou have to open up pathways for
different skills to execute,and so I do exercises with
leaders.
That's like if you had amultitude of different animals
and you're like whoever canclimb the tree gets the job.
Well, the monkey birds couldget pests out, but how you write
(20:12):
that requisition and how youlook at talent is going to
determine who you would evenconsider.
(20:33):
And if you're myopic in termsof, oh, you have to look like
Tony and Teresa and you have towork the way we do to be
successful, you're not evengoing to consider the other
talent.
So I challenge everybody lookat what you're doing.
And if you're like, oh, theyhave to have three to five years
of experience because you knowI teach human resources and I
always challenge those futuretalent acquisition people to say
(20:54):
what is it that you think ishappening in that three to five
years which is why you're givingthat number and they're like
well, I mean, if you've had xamount of years of experience,
then you've probably hadchallenges, I go.
So you're making an assumption.
Why don't you just say I'mhiring an accountant and I want
to know that you've been throughfive audits.
(21:15):
I want to know that you've hadto like work with a client.
Like what is it that thatexperience is supposed to
encompass?
Because you could have somebodythat works 10 years and has
never had that problem and youcould have somebody that got the
short straw as the accountantand in their first three years
went through 10 audits, right.
Of course, that might also implythey're not a good accountant
(21:35):
in the first place.
That's what we're trying tounpack with talent, and I just
don't think people get it.
And the same thing happens forall those that are like oh, the
education side.
Same thing happens with collegeentry my son has as a high
school student, because he's notofficially a college student,
but he's been at the localcollege since he was 14 years
old.
He has 52 credit hours.
(21:56):
He has a 4.0 in, like the mostadvanced math classes they have,
but to get full entry he stillhad to take his SAT, you mean
the test that predicts whetheror not he could have taken the
52 credit hours in the 4.0 hehas.
And so it's these systems thatare designed to try to ensure
equity, but there's no thinkingbehind them anymore.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Yeah, I've said that.
In the neurotypical world, letalone the neurodiverse, to me it
just makes no sense.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
We're just not thinking.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
And I don't know if it's because you know we created
rules to ensure safety.
But then at what point do westart to lose sight of the
evaluation of that safety net?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah, exactly yeah.
What is very important to you?
That you need to let ourlisteners know about the journey
in what you do.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
The most important thing people need to know is
that there is not a typical lineof development, especially in
autism.
It's in a typical development,but that doesn't mean an
incomplete development.
It's in a typical development,but that doesn't mean an
incomplete development.
And so what people need tounderstand is and people say it,
(23:11):
but I don't think they reallyappreciate what it means
Different doesn't mean less.
A perfect example is becausethe majority does develop in a
more synchronous pattern, a morelinear pattern that has, like
mainstreamed.
It's very hard to accept andacknowledge deviations of
development from that pattern.
(23:32):
So a perfect example is my son,at five or six, was reading and
writing and doing math at likemiddle school levels, couldn't
tie his shoes, he had other, youknow, physical limitations that
other children at that agewould have mastered right, like
self-care and potting and thingslike that.
You fast forward and now we're16, 17, 18, 19 years old and
(23:56):
they're driving and dating anddoing all these things.
Okay, a lot of autisticindividuals with a typical
development especially ifthey're, you know, gifted and
twice exceptional they're notdriving at 18.
They're socially awkward andprobably not playing sports
because their interests aresomewhere else.
And so when you meet withpeople because it's our typical
(24:17):
society.
They're like well, what do youwant to do when you grow up and
what sports do you play?
And are you driving?
Yet Because that's what theyknow.
And so when all of yourquestions are no, they're like,
oh God, that must be horrible.
Well, is your child takingsenior level college classes?
Have they done an internship atNASA?
Like I could ask questions thatyou would say no to too.
(24:39):
And so I don't think my son isbetter than others who haven't
had those achievements, andother people's children are not
better because they haveachievements he hasn't had.
I think the world, just the wayhumans are, we create measuring
sticks of competitiveness, andif you're not playing sports,
(25:02):
then you're not manly enough,and if you're not driving or you
don't have a job, yeah, it'ssad we have to compare like that
.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Like you said, everyone's different.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
That's the typical measuring stick and this would
be like every autistic parentout there will tell you this I
praise you for your kidsachievements and I acknowledge
those typical milestones and Ithink it's great.
Don't diminish my child,because our milestones are
different and don't dismiss them.
(25:31):
Tony, I can't tell you howoften I sit in conversations and
people talk about oh, they'regoing to the prom and they're
going to high school Although myson did go to a dance but
they're going to prom andthey're going to high school and
they're doing all these thingsand they're driving and they got
the first job working atWendy's.
That's great, that's great forthem.
I'm happy.
And they're getting intocollege and they're going to
move away Good.
(25:52):
So then I share my stuff andit's like it didn't happen
because it's not on theirchecklist and they'll actually
be like, oh my God, do you thinkI'll ever drive?
Did you just hear he did aninternship?
Did you just hear he did aninternship?
Parents of autistic children Isee you and your achievements
are just as valid.
I think that's what everybodyneeds to understand.
(26:12):
It's weird, tony.
I've been saying this toeducators for a long time.
I don't like K-12 education.
They expect these children, allchildren to be like the jack of
all trades, of everything K-12.
And then there's this magicalthing that happens you get into
adulthood and you get toactually choose what you're good
at and hang out with the peopleyou want to hang out with and
(26:32):
pursue the hobbies of interestto you and all of a sudden
everybody starts thrivingbecause plumbers become plumbers
and engineers hang out withengineers and musicians go with
musicians.
I think we need to start thatearlier.
I don't know why there's likethis weird turning.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, I agree a hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Right, yeah, you wouldn't hang like you're a
musician.
You've been doing it for years.
It's not because you can'tappreciate other fields, but
you're probably not hanging outwith them.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
When I was a sophomore in high school, I was
taking geometry.
What am I taking this for?
I want to be a musician.
I totally get what you'resaying here.
A hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
And if we want to teach some uniform stuff, teach
kids that they have to pay taxesand how to file them like how
to balance a checkbook.
There are some practical thingswe don't teach.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
At all.
And then there's other thingswhere it's like, oh, we've
decided.
I think that was my parents'generation we all supposed to go
to college for some reason.
And then people came out theother side saying did I have to
go to college?
So if anybody could takeanything away is we have got to
stop pitting ourselves againsteach other, because the truth is
(27:40):
is we all can't be good at thesame things and, by the way, if
we all had the same interestsand the same talents, the world
wouldn't work.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
It'd be boring too.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Like we need everybody and we need to stop
diminishing like.
I know Danny talked about this.
We need to stop diminishing thetrades.
We need trades just as much aswe need doctors and we need to
just value people more, Valuehumans and stop trying to
measure everybody againstyourself, because we're not in
(28:09):
competition with you.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Absolutely.
This has been a really goodconversation.
I appreciate you coming on myshow.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
I'm really glad to be here.
One thing I just want to leaveeverybody with is there's a lot
of things going on in the worldright now, but you and your
family matter, and there areplenty of us out here, like Tony
, that are going to keeplistening.
We're going to keep workingbecause you exist, you deserve
to thrive, you deserve education, you deserve gainful employment
(28:39):
, you deserve respect, andthat's what I work towards.
And that's what I work towardsand that's what we're going to
keep doing.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
That's great, that's great.
Well, this has been good, very,very informative.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Tony, there's a lot of work to be done and I'm glad
to be part of a not quiet butsmall army.
That'll be one of the things asyou continue on this journey.
It is a small consortium ofpeople in this space.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah, you were so correct there.
Again, I really appreciate youcoming on.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Really nice to meet you Well, I will thank you so
much for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
It's been my pleasure .
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(29:42):
send them to tonymantorcom.
Send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the World, theconversations we're having and
(30:02):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me , the World podcast, hosted by
Tony Mantor, broadcasting fromMusic City, usa, nashville,
tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:28):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantour.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me, theWorld.
Joining us today is TeresaHaskins, an educator, researcher
and, notably, a mother with anautistic child.
Her journey began seekinganswers, which led to providing
those answers by immersingherself in learning.
This led to her teaching othershow to help themselves find
(01:17):
success and achieve their fullpotential in a more diverse,
inclusive and equitable world.
It's a pleasure to have her onto share her expertise with us.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
If you would, let's just tell people what you do and
how you got there.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
So currently there's a lot of things going on.
I have a multitude of roles.
I'm a professor at theUniversity of Southern
California, I teach graduatestudies in human resource
management and I work there toreally push a neurodiversity
lens to help future leadersreally try to get a better sense
(01:57):
of how to be more accommodatingand as part of the university
then I started to see some ofthe issues in higher education,
where I work with faculty sothat they're more inclusive and
how they're designing theirlearning and working with
students.
But all of this actually cameabout almost well.
It's 18 years ago.
(02:17):
Today I do consulting and upuntil recently I was working
with a lot of governmentagencies on how to build more
neuro-inclusive teams and wewere really making a lot of
government agencies on how tobuild more neuroinclusive teams
and we were really making a lotof headway in that space and I
believe that traction will stick, regardless of current
sentiment.
But it all started with my son.
When you have your first child,or any children, you have
(02:39):
visions of what life will be.
My son was a surprise, so youknow his first year of
development seemed fairlytypical until we started to get
into the social components thatyou would start to anticipate
your child to engage in.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
What were some of the things that you noticed he
wasn't doing that you thought heshould have been doing?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
So he didn't wave and he didn't say hello or goodbye
or any of those things.
And as he was pushing towardstwo, he could speak.
And I always like to qualifythat, that when I say my son
didn't talk, he didn't talkreciprocally, but he could speak
.
So he could count to 100.
He knew his ABCs, but he didn'tsay hello or goodbye.
(03:23):
So you know there's definitelysomething going on there.
And so you talk to thepediatrician and they're like,
don't worry about it, kidsdevelop differently.
I'm like, yeah, but this isdifferent, different, right,
he's not meeting some of thosebenchmarks that we have in the
developmental checklist.
So they, you know, they sendthem to audiologists.
They check their hearing, theycheck their eyesight, like
(03:45):
they're looking for somephysical problem, until they
come to the conclusion there'sno physical problem.
And that leads you to meetingwith psychiatrists.
And in our case, our son isthrice exceptional.
People say twice exceptionalbut he actually is autistic,
pdd-nos by the DSM-IV, he's ADHDand he's gifted.
(04:09):
He has an IQ of about 150.
So that would explain why hewas able to read and write by
the age of three, but he stillwasn't talking conversationally.
So when you have this extremelybright but a typically
developing child, you start tothink about how is this going to
work?
And so, like many parentsbecause this was before I was Dr
(04:30):
Haskins, I didn't even have mymaster's yet.
At the time I was just a momand my husband was just a dad
and we were just trying to getthrough life right and so we
have this amazing little boythat's just doing all these
really cool things that nobodypays attention to.
You know, we talked about howhe could count to 100.
And you know, he was a littlebit like the WB frog, so if you
brought him somewhere and askedhim to do something he wouldn't
(04:52):
perform.
So then it's the parents sayingthese things happen and they're
like oh, that's probably justseculalia, he's probably just
repeating you, you're traininghim to do this stuff.
I was not training my son to doanything.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
That must have been really frustrating to deal with
when you know what you know as amother.
So how did you handle it?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
So you're met with all this disbelief and it was
really, really aggravating, butthey're little and you figure
they'll develop in time.
And you also.
As a society, we believe thatdoctors and psychiatrists and
teachers know things.
We want to have belief thatwhen they're telling us stuff
it's true, and so when they'retelling you that your son can't
(05:33):
do this or your daughter can'tdo that or whatever you're being
told this week, you believethem.
The great news is that I haveeyes and ears in my own brain
and I could hear what they weresaying and I knew what I lived
and I knew what they were sayingand I knew what I lived and I
knew what I was doing and I knewthey were wrong.
I thought I'd go back to schooland become a special educator
and I only spent six months inthat program, one semester I
(05:54):
guess.
So that's a little less thansix months and my first class.
I mean everything was fine, butwhat they were teaching was
just wrong.
I just knew it was wrong,because it was like hearing the
same rhetoric that I was hearingwith doctors and psychologists
of do these things.
And I knew those things weren'tright.
And so I raised my hand and Isaid hey, who comes up with this
stuff?
And that isn't quite how I saidit, but I'll be nice on your
podcast and the professor saideasy, educational psychologists
(06:18):
do.
He goes.
You know, to be a specialeducator you have to use
evidence-based methodologies.
You can't just make things upand I go, somebody's making this
stuff up?
And I go who does that?
And he goes educationalpsychologists.
I go, how do I become one ofthem?
So I dropped out of thatprogram and I rolled in a
master's program and I got mydegree in educational psychology
.
Around the same time my sonwould get close to school age,
(06:40):
so we would go through thatrigmarole because at that point
in time I still thought my kidwould go to school.
I went to school, you probablywent to school.
I don't know anything abouthomeschooling.
I'm not an educator at thistime.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
With all this happening, what was your next
plan of action?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So he goes for intelligence testing and after
three days they stopped thetesting because they could have
went further, but by statestandards, high enough.
He gets like an IQ of 152 orsomething like that and they're
like that's high enough for ourpurposes.
He was testing in eighth grademath.
He's five years old and sowe're sitting there.
He should be enteringkindergarten and we have like
(07:17):
the first grade and the secondgrade and the third grade people
all sitting around the tableand the principal and the
educational psychologist arelike we hear what you're saying
about his intelligence, butbased on his social deficits, he
really should be inkindergarten because we want him
to develop with his peers.
And then you could look at theteachers going.
What are we going to teach?
Like, what are we going to dowith him all day?
You know, like he was alreadyreading to.
(07:38):
He was like in a developmentalpreschool class to get some
socialization and he would readto the other kids.
He was four.
So my husband and I left thatand I'm like this isn't going to
work and so we were like Iguess we'll have to homeschool
him.
So my husband got the hard job.
He actually had to do thehomeschooling of the
(07:58):
homeschooling and I continue tolike do my studies and get my
degrees and try to figure outhow to do this stuff.
Granted, like my story is not ahomeschooling story, but my
story is there was no system tosupport us, there were no
answers, there were no resources, no one really knew what to do.
You know, when I asked, well,could he come to school?
(08:20):
You know, maybe start in firstor second grade socially and
then maybe go to the high schoolto take some physics classes?
And like we can't have afive-year-old in the high school
, like the system's not builtfor a child like that.
And so we exited the system andI started studying and testing
my theories.
So everything I did with my son, I started to research.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
With all the emotions going on the ups and downs,
researching seemed to be a goodthing.
Where did that path of research?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
lead you.
I tested choice-making andautonomous learning, because one
of the first things we do toautistic children is take away
all sense of choice.
Having a set schedule isdifferent than taking away
autonomy and choice, and what Ifound in my life is that,
whether it's a disabled person,a child, an elderly person, a
disengaged person, first thingwe do is take away choice and
(09:10):
start to micromanage them and wetake away all their identity
and sense of self and we stoplistening and we start becoming
extremely prescriptive and it'shorribly dangerous.
I knew my son would be educatedbecause I could handle that and
I've been in corporate Americaand working with entities I hate
to admit it, tony, pushingthree decades now and I knew
(09:33):
that, what I was doing with himand how he was developing.
But then I would be sitting inboard meetings and talent
discussions and like, even if Iget my son educated, what's
going to happen next?
Because, based on the peopleI'm talking with, no one's ever
going to hire him.
So that's when I went to get mydoctorate and I'm like now I
got to figure out how we changesystems, how do we change
organizations.
(09:53):
So I went from how do weeducate these individuals,
create more inclusive classrooms, create more pathways,
opportunities, differentiatedinstruction and self-directed
learning.
And then that pivoted to how dowe create more accessible
skills-based which is ironicbecause that's a word being used
right now, but most of ourinterview protocol and talent
(10:17):
assessment is based onextroverted engagement, meaning
how we communicate.
Whether you tell a good storyyou could be getting a job in
accounting, tony and they'lljudge you on how you answer that
question right.
So somebody like me I know I'verambled for a bit they're
expecting that two-minute answer.
I give you a 20-minute answer,right?
And so the neurodivergencystarts coming out.
So I've really been workingwith organizations about really
(10:40):
thinking about.
When you say you want the besttalent, how are you defining
that, who are you reallyincluding and how are you
judging it?
And you know, 100, 200 yearsago, introversion was king.
It was the quiet,methodological person that was
the most valued, and now it'sextroversion and charisma.
As those tides shift, how do wemake sure we're bringing
everybody along?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
That's a great question.
What are you implementing totry and, hopefully, change some
of this?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
The things I do.
I educate future leaders, Idevelop programs for autistic
individuals and their familiesto try to figure out their own
pathways, because there is noset path.
One of the things I tellparents all the time is people
want a box solution.
There is no box solution.
It's not the answer you want.
If we're going to believe thatautism is a spectrum I know
(11:28):
you've had people tell you that,that there's no two people with
autism alike If you believethat, then you know there's no
box solution and so it's reallybeing malleable.
And that's why I don't havesome 10 method pathway of
success, because I can't tell alie and it just wouldn't be true
.
I really work organically withleaders and parents and
(11:49):
organizations to understand howwould it work here, because your
path to success at thisuniversity will be different
than your path to success atthis government entity.
Don't want to say any othernames because I want them to
continue the good work thatthose paths are going to be very
unique to you, just like theindividuals you're trying to.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, when you meet someone for the first time,
you're trying to explain to themwhat you just explained to me.
How do you get that across?
There's this big mystery insome people's minds on what
autism is.
For example, when I firststarted my podcast, I knew
nothing about autism Zero.
(12:31):
Now, a year and a half later,I've gathered enough information
where I can understand whatpeople are saying.
I can follow along A lot ofpeople out there.
When you mention autism, theythink Rain man, which is so far
from the truth.
So how do you try to createthat bridge?
So the gap between the knownand unknown is a little bit
(12:53):
better for those that don'tunderstand autism.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
How do you bridge that?
So it's an interesting thing,tony, because if you met me 10
years ago, we would spend a lotof time.
I would spend a lot of matterhow I try to explain autism to
you.
You will start to develop acaricature and scheme of that
(13:28):
individual.
It may be true sometimes, butit may not be true all the time.
So instead and this happenedlast year I was doing a thing
and they're like but how do Iknow if they have autism or ADHD
?
So I know I should support themand I've been trying to unpack
that in.
Are you willing to supportpeople and meet them where they
are?
Would you be willing to workwith somebody who communicates
(13:49):
differently?
Would you be willing to workwith people that need directions
in writing?
Would you be willing to givepeople extra time on a test?
Does it really matter why theyneed it More?
So does somebody have to have adocumented disability for you
to want to meet them where theyare?
Tony, I mean, being short isnot a documented disability, but
(14:09):
I can assure you I amcompletely disabled at the Home
Depot when I want something onthe top shelf.
So what I've really been workingwith leaders is stop worrying
about my son's disability or mydeficits or somebody with ADHDs.
Ask people what they need to besuccessful.
Assess what you're doing.
That could create roadblocks.
(14:30):
If I have sensory processingissues, I'll tell you that I
need a quiet work environment.
Be willing to give me thatquiet work environment.
If I tell you that peoplewalking into my office is
distracting, then respect thatand give me a door to close or
maybe let me work from home.
What I find is that theaccommodations view, the ADA
(14:51):
view of reasonable accommodation, puts this.
It's an othering where it'slike well, if I think less of
you because you need help, thenI'll give you the support you
need.
And where that neurodiversitymovement is coming in and where
I like work with professors andleaders is saying if somebody
tells you they need something,believe them.
(15:13):
And, more importantly, whywouldn't you give people the
supports they need to succeedand I'm really trying to take it
away from prove to me you havea problem, so I will help you
and get it to.
Why wouldn't we help anybody?
One of the biggest things I see,tony, which is why I work more
with leaders and educationalinstitutions and not individuals
, is I'm frankly tired of theautistic community being asked
(15:38):
to change in some way and, inessence, be less disabled to
succeed.
We don't ask blind people to beless blind.
We don't try to give themtraining on how to navigate to
pretend they're less blind.
And if we actually believe thatautism is a neurological
difference I know there's peoplethat want to debate whether
it's a disability or not but oursociety creates conditions that
(16:00):
are disabling.
And if we believe that to betrue, then we can't ask autistic
people to try to be lessautistic.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
That's a great point.
How do we move forward fromthat?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I think it's great there are a lot of people that
help autistic peopleself-advocate.
Obviously, I want my son tohave the skills to be able to
ask for what he needs, but it isnot on him or me to install
elevators and ramps in abuilding, right, and so the onus
really is on the other side andthe other side doesn't have to
(16:32):
understand autism, right.
You don't have to understandcerebral palsy, you don't have
to understand all the differentconditions that can result in
somebody being blind and deaf tounderstand that there's a need
there that needs to beaccommodated.
So I've been really trying toget people to don't overly worry
whether or not somebody hasADHD or autism, because I did
have a CEO who goes.
(16:52):
But how do I know?
If they're really ADHD?
I go, does it matter?
What about if they're just atypical person that's
introverted and focuses betterin a quiet room, create, and so
that's where that concept ofuniversal design comes from.
That's where this concept ofneurodiversity comes from, and I
think that, especially whenwe're in an environment where
(17:13):
people are charged about,everything should be fair and
equal.
Then let's do that.
Let's create accessibleorganizations, let's create the
lifts and ramps of the autismcommunity, because we know what
those structures are from ageneralized perspective and if
we incorporate more skill basedassessments, less dependency on
(17:33):
your ability to churn a catchyphrase like I didn't know, tony,
that every person applying fora job had to be a marketing
expert.
Right, how they craft a resume.
Come on, if you can take acourse to get a job.
They're not hiring you for yourskills, they're hiring you for
a clip, and that's just notright.
So that's what I've really beentrying to work Like if you're
(17:54):
hiring an accountant, why dothey have to have great
communication skills?
What are you actually askingthat accountant to do?
That's why I think, especiallyon the autism side, when we saw
autism at work and all thoseinitiatives, that's why it was
in the tech space, because thosewere the leaders that were the
first to say you're right, theydon't have to be great
communicators.
You're right, I'm not reallylooking at their ability to make
(18:15):
friends, I need them to code orI need them to do technical
work, and that's why we've seenso much more traction on that
side, because we could getleaders to get it.
And so that's how I helpleaders come along.
I actually try to shut down themedical model of conversation
and, by the way, in mostcountries you're not even really
(18:36):
permitted to ask thosequestions Like if it was a
medical diagnosis.
They're not supposed to askabout your cancer diagnosis.
So we have to be very carefulabout, well, how does your
autism manifest?
None of your business, but I doneed a quiet workspace.
I do need you to follow up withmeeting notes, and having an
agenda before the meeting wouldbe helpful too.
When you say it that way, thethings I just asked for aren't
(18:59):
even unreasonable.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, when I spoke with Temple Grandin she said
give me a pilot's checklist,I'll get it done.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
That's it and I'll be honest.
Tony and anybody listening,look at a job requisition.
And how much is that somebody'sperception of the skills you
need to do the job?
Because that's probably theskills they have.
And can you tell me, based onthat job, if you actually know
what your job was going to beLike?
They'll say, oh, I need you tobe able to chop onions and I
(19:28):
need you to be able to saute Inthe job requisition does it
actually tell you what type offood you're going to cook?
Because that's going to tell youa lot more.
Like McDonald's and GordonRamsay all hire cooks.
What they're cooking and theskill level involved is quite
different, but their jobrequisitions would probably not
read that differently, andthat's the problem.
So I tell people, if you wantinnovation and you want
(19:51):
creativity, of course we want topromote the autistic side of
the house, but the truth is isyou have to open up pathways for
different skills to execute,and so I do exercises with
leaders.
That's like if you had amultitude of different animals
and you're like whoever canclimb the tree gets the job.
Well, the monkey birds couldget pests out, but how you write
(20:12):
that requisition and how youlook at talent is going to
determine who you would evenconsider.
(20:33):
And if you're myopic in termsof, oh, you have to look like
Tony and Teresa and you have towork the way we do to be
successful, you're not evengoing to consider the other
talent.
So I challenge everybody lookat what you're doing.
And if you're like, oh, theyhave to have three to five years
of experience because you knowI teach human resources and I
always challenge those futuretalent acquisition people to say
(20:54):
what is it that you think ishappening in that three to five
years which is why you're givingthat number and they're like
well, I mean, if you've had xamount of years of experience,
then you've probably hadchallenges, I go.
So you're making an assumption.
Why don't you just say I'mhiring an accountant and I want
to know that you've been throughfive audits.
(21:15):
I want to know that you've hadto like work with a client.
Like what is it that thatexperience is supposed to
encompass?
Because you could have somebodythat works 10 years and has
never had that problem and youcould have somebody that got the
short straw as the accountantand in their first three years
went through 10 audits, right.
Of course, that might also implythey're not a good accountant
(21:35):
in the first place.
That's what we're trying tounpack with talent, and I just
don't think people get it.
And the same thing happens forall those that are like oh, the
education side.
Same thing happens with collegeentry my son has as a high
school student, because he's notofficially a college student,
but he's been at the localcollege since he was 14 years
old.
He has 52 credit hours.
(21:56):
He has a 4.0 in, like the mostadvanced math classes they have,
but to get full entry he stillhad to take his SAT, you mean
the test that predicts whetheror not he could have taken the
52 credit hours in the 4.0 hehas.
And so it's these systems thatare designed to try to ensure
equity, but there's no thinkingbehind them anymore.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Yeah, I've said that.
In the neurotypical world, letalone the neurodiverse, to me it
just makes no sense.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
We're just not thinking.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
And I don't know if it's because you know we created
rules to ensure safety.
But then at what point do westart to lose sight of the
evaluation of that safety net?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah, exactly yeah.
What is very important to you?
That you need to let ourlisteners know about the journey
in what you do.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
The most important thing people need to know is
that there is not a typical lineof development, especially in
autism.
It's in a typical development,but that doesn't mean an
incomplete development.
It's in a typical development,but that doesn't mean an
incomplete development.
And so what people need tounderstand is and people say it,
(23:11):
but I don't think they reallyappreciate what it means
Different doesn't mean less.
A perfect example is becausethe majority does develop in a
more synchronous pattern, a morelinear pattern that has, like
mainstreamed.
It's very hard to accept andacknowledge deviations of
development from that pattern.
(23:32):
So a perfect example is my son,at five or six, was reading and
writing and doing math at likemiddle school levels, couldn't
tie his shoes, he had other, youknow, physical limitations that
other children at that agewould have mastered right, like
self-care and potting and thingslike that.
You fast forward and now we're16, 17, 18, 19 years old and
(23:56):
they're driving and dating anddoing all these things.
Okay, a lot of autisticindividuals with a typical
development especially ifthey're, you know, gifted and
twice exceptional they're notdriving at 18.
They're socially awkward andprobably not playing sports
because their interests aresomewhere else.
And so when you meet withpeople because it's our typical
(24:17):
society.
They're like well, what do youwant to do when you grow up and
what sports do you play?
And are you driving?
Yet Because that's what theyknow.
And so when all of yourquestions are no, they're like,
oh God, that must be horrible.
Well, is your child takingsenior level college classes?
Have they done an internship atNASA?
Like I could ask questions thatyou would say no to too.
(24:39):
And so I don't think my son isbetter than others who haven't
had those achievements, andother people's children are not
better because they haveachievements he hasn't had.
I think the world, just the wayhumans are, we create measuring
sticks of competitiveness, andif you're not playing sports,
(25:02):
then you're not manly enough,and if you're not driving or you
don't have a job, yeah, it'ssad we have to compare like that
.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Like you said, everyone's different.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
That's the typical measuring stick and this would
be like every autistic parentout there will tell you this I
praise you for your kidsachievements and I acknowledge
those typical milestones and Ithink it's great.
Don't diminish my child,because our milestones are
different and don't dismiss them.
(25:31):
Tony, I can't tell you howoften I sit in conversations and
people talk about oh, they'regoing to the prom and they're
going to high school Although myson did go to a dance but
they're going to prom andthey're going to high school and
they're doing all these thingsand they're driving and they got
the first job working atWendy's.
That's great, that's great forthem.
I'm happy.
And they're getting intocollege and they're going to
move away Good.
(25:52):
So then I share my stuff andit's like it didn't happen
because it's not on theirchecklist and they'll actually
be like, oh my God, do you thinkI'll ever drive?
Did you just hear he did aninternship?
Did you just hear he did aninternship?
Parents of autistic children Isee you and your achievements
are just as valid.
I think that's what everybodyneeds to understand.
(26:12):
It's weird, tony.
I've been saying this toeducators for a long time.
I don't like K-12 education.
They expect these children, allchildren to be like the jack of
all trades, of everything K-12.
And then there's this magicalthing that happens you get into
adulthood and you get toactually choose what you're good
at and hang out with the peopleyou want to hang out with and
(26:32):
pursue the hobbies of interestto you and all of a sudden
everybody starts thrivingbecause plumbers become plumbers
and engineers hang out withengineers and musicians go with
musicians.
I think we need to start thatearlier.
I don't know why there's likethis weird turning.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, I agree a hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Right, yeah, you wouldn't hang like you're a
musician.
You've been doing it for years.
It's not because you can'tappreciate other fields, but
you're probably not hanging outwith them.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
When I was a sophomore in high school, I was
taking geometry.
What am I taking this for?
I want to be a musician.
I totally get what you'resaying here.
A hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
And if we want to teach some uniform stuff, teach
kids that they have to pay taxesand how to file them like how
to balance a checkbook.
There are some practical thingswe don't teach.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
At all.
And then there's other thingswhere it's like, oh, we've
decided.
I think that was my parents'generation we all supposed to go
to college for some reason.
And then people came out theother side saying did I have to
go to college?
So if anybody could takeanything away is we have got to
stop pitting ourselves againsteach other, because the truth is
(27:40):
is we all can't be good at thesame things and, by the way, if
we all had the same interestsand the same talents, the world
wouldn't work.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
It'd be boring too.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Like we need everybody and we need to stop
diminishing like.
I know Danny talked about this.
We need to stop diminishing thetrades.
We need trades just as much aswe need doctors and we need to
just value people more, Valuehumans and stop trying to
measure everybody againstyourself, because we're not in
(28:09):
competition with you.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Absolutely.
This has been a really goodconversation.
I appreciate you coming on myshow.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
I'm really glad to be here.
One thing I just want to leaveeverybody with is there's a lot
of things going on in the worldright now, but you and your
family matter, and there areplenty of us out here, like Tony
, that are going to keeplistening.
We're going to keep workingbecause you exist, you deserve
to thrive, you deserve education, you deserve gainful employment
(28:39):
, you deserve respect, andthat's what I work towards.
And that's what I work towardsand that's what we're going to
keep doing.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
That's great, that's great.
Well, this has been good, very,very informative.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Tony, there's a lot of work to be done and I'm glad
to be part of a not quiet butsmall army.
That'll be one of the things asyou continue on this journey.
It is a small consortium ofpeople in this space.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah, you were so correct there.
Again, I really appreciate youcoming on.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Really nice to meet you Well, I will thank you so
much for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
It's been my pleasure .
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(29:42):
send them to tonymantorcom.
Send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the World, theconversations we're having and
(30:02):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
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