May 26, 2025 • 28 mins
Sheriff Donna Buckley shares her journey from attorney to becoming the first female sheriff in Barnstable County's 333-year history, along with her innovative approach to transforming incarceration through mental health support, comprehensive case management, and post-release services.
• Buckley's background as legal counsel representing public employees, including police officers and educators
• How the prevalence of mental health issues and addiction in jails inspired her to run for sheriff
• The role of Barnstable County Sheriff's Office in managing the jail, criminal investigations, and emergency services
• Jails functioning as "de facto mental health and addiction treatment" facilities due to lack of proper infrastructure
• Implementation of a case management model to ensure personalized support for every incarcerated individual
• Training corrections officers in mental health first aid and cognitive behavioral therapy
• The newly opened Bridge Center that provides comprehensive post-release support services
• Development of specialized programming for women that addresses their unique needs
• Success stories of individuals breaking the cycle of recidivism through proper support and resources
• Sheriff Buckley's philosophy: "The best way to keep the public safe is to make sure that when people leave our jails, they don't come back"
To learn more about Sheriff Buckley's approach or to share your story, visit TonyMantor.com and click on Contact.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me , the World Podcast, hosted by
Tony Mantor, Broadcasting fromMusic City, USA, Nashville,
Tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Minotaur.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is SheriffDonna Buckley.
She has proudly served asBarnstable County Sheriff since
January 4, 2023.
She's the first female sheriffin Barnstable County's 333-year
history.
(01:12):
She began her career as thein-house counsel for the
National Association ofGovernment Employees
International Brotherhood ofPolice Officers.
After running her law officefor nine years, she worked at
the Massachusetts TeachersAssociation, delivering legal
services to the members of theteachers' union in the areas of
collective bargaining,grievances, arbitrations and
(01:35):
employment disputes.
She also taught criminal lawand related courses and, in 2018
, became the general counsel forthe Barnstable County Sheriff's
Office.
After that, she ran for sheriffand won.
She's here to tell us her story, and what a story it is.
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well, thank you for having me Important
conversations.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Well, it's my pleasure and, yes, very
important conversation.
Can you give us a littlebackground and more about your
journey on becoming sheriff ofyour county?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
and more about your journey on becoming sheriff of
your county.
It's sort of a nontraditionalpath to being sheriff.
I've spent my entire career asan attorney and in 2018, I
accepted a job as generalcounsel for the Barnstable
County Sheriff's Office.
In that position, I had anopportunity to see both what was
happening inside the sheriff'soffice, as well as be part of
(02:28):
one of the major criminaljustice reform legislations that
was passed in Massachusetts in2018, and think about you know
sort of how that was going to beimplemented, what other
sheriff's offices were doing andwhat we were doing.
And so, through that work, lotsof discussion about recidivism,
lots of discussion about mentalhealth and addiction being the
primary reason that people arein jail, and when the current
(02:52):
sheriff indicated that he wasgoing to retire, there was only
one candidate who steppedforward, and that candidate
didn't, in my view, seem toshare the priorities that were
necessary to address what washappening in the criminal
justice system, which was theprevalence of addiction and
mental health in people who areincarcerated and a lack of
(03:15):
recognition for the fact that alack of services,
pre-incarceration, pre-criminalbehavior is what led a lot of
people to spiral into thecriminal justice system.
So it was one of those put up orshut up moments where you know
you can't complain about the waythings are going if you're not
willing to do something.
And I was at a point in my lifewhere it's like you know what.
(03:35):
I have a responsibility to havea conversation with the
community about what we could bedoing at the sheriff's office,
especially in relation toincarceration.
So I ran with the purpose ofhaving that conversation and
giving people an option.
Other sheriff's offices inMassachusetts and throughout the
state were realizing that weneeded to not just lock people
(04:00):
up and then let them out whentheir time's up.
So we had the conversation andupset of upsets I won.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Well, some things are just meant to be.
What was your legal expertise?
Was it defense or prosecution?
What was the transition for youfrom legal to sheriff?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Well here?
No, actually I spent my careerbefore I came to the sheriff's
office representing publicemployees.
So I represented policeofficers, firefighters, public
school educators, so I actuallysat on the employee side of the
table for probably 90% of mycareer.
But I will say this no matterwhat side of the table you're on
(04:36):
, it is the employees who do thework, and unless we support
them and value the work that wedo, we can't provide the
services that we need to provide.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Sure, that makes sense.
Now, as I understand it, inyour county the sheriff doesn't
actually do a lot of patrolling,if any at all.
The sheriff actually maintainsthe jail system.
Can you expand on how thatworks for your particular area?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
It is, and it's interesting as you talk to
sheriffs throughout the countrybecause actually even within the
state each of us is different,which is the beauty of the
office.
So in Barnstable we run thejail, which includes lockups, so
pre-arraignment, pre-trial andsentence.
We house both males and females.
We run a Bureau of CriminalInvestigation, which is crime
(05:28):
scene investigations, whichsupports the police departments
throughout Barnstable County.
We run an Emergency 911Communications Center which
provides emergencycommunications for most of the
towns in Barnstable County andwe are a significant member of
the Regional Law EnforcementCouncil.
So we provide.
We have a canine unit, we havea drone unit, we have SWAT
(05:52):
people who participate in SWATand hostage negotiation and
search and rescue humantrafficking.
So we work side by side withthe local police departments.
But in Barnstable County thereis no need for us to also be
police patrol officers becauseevery town has their own police
department.
So for us to do that work whichwe could, but for us to do that
(06:14):
it would be redundant and, Idon't think, a good use of
taxpayer money.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Okay, now it's amazing that you bring that up.
I have spoken with severaljudges around the country and we
all seem to come back tofunding paid by taxpayers.
Many judges are trying todivert the people that come in
front of them with seriousmental illness away from the
(06:40):
prison system, because they findthat that usually means the
prison is actually being thehospital, and that's not what it
was intended to be.
By doing this, it canpotentially save the taxpayers
hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions, in
incarceration fees.
Now, with that being said, howdo you see this working within
(07:06):
the system that you do every day?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
You know, that would be the ideal If we didn't have
to incarcerate people.
That would certainly be ideal,but there's so many factors that
we need to think about in thereality that we live today.
First of all, the lack ofmental health and addiction
services that exist right now isone of the reasons why we have
people spiraling into jailbecause we have no place else to
(07:32):
put them.
That's a tragedy.
It's a tragedy because peoplewho, especially people who are
having a mental health crisisit's not a surprise that they
act unlawfully.
But we don't have theinfrastructure left because we
closed all of the residentialtreatment facilities back in the
80s.
We don't have the beds or theproviders to provide that
(07:54):
service in advance to preventsomeone from getting into a
crisis.
So I frequently say our jailsnot just mine, but the jails in
Massachusetts, the jails acrossthe country are de facto mental
health and addiction treatment.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, I've heard that said many times.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Now, that said, if we had the appropriate
infrastructure to keep peoplesupported who need support,
they've committed crimes.
They need something more thanjust go off and don't do it
again.
If we had those infrastructuresin place, then ideally we could
not put people in jail,although there are also
circumstances where people needa timeout.
(08:31):
They need to be separated fromthe community.
They need the time tounderstand what they did, be
held accountable and figure outwhat the next chapter looks like
.
So I think in Massachusettsright now, what we're seeing is
that our sheriffs are remarkablyamazingly filling two needs.
(08:52):
One, we are keeping people incustody who need to be in
custody.
For those people who there isno other option, people that are
here we are providing themedical and mental health
services.
We are providing the supports.
We are giving people the toolsor starting that work and I can
speak for myself here, but Iknow there are other sheriff's
(09:13):
offices as well who areunderstanding that that work is
a continuum.
It doesn't just happen whilepeople are incarcerated.
It has to continue post-release.
As sheriffs, we have theinfrastructure because we have
them within our facilities, sowe are able to seamlessly
provide that supportpost-release, and we have seen
(09:36):
some amazing examples of thatworking, especially for people
with mental health challenges.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
All right.
So it seems to me, fromspeaking with the various people
that I've spoken with, that ifthe sheriffs, the legislators,
the judges everybody that'sinvolved within the legal system
was to get together and sitdown with the legislators and
say, look, we have a problemhere, we need to tell them.
(10:05):
We can send the families hereone by one or we can
collectively get them together,but we have a problem and you
have the power to collectivelychange that.
Common sense tells me that thepeople that have the power could
get together, form a way offixing this and helping for
everyone involved.
How am I missing this point?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I don't think you're missing it.
I think that I've hadconversations with legislators
about the fact that there arephysical facilities that need to
be in place, provide servicesfor people, especially for
mental health services, and it'sa non-starter.
(10:53):
While everybody will pay lipservice to the fact that it was
the worst public policy decisionin the history of the world to
close all the residential mentalhealth facilities, nobody is
willing to step forward and saywe need new ones.
So I'm not giving up on thatconversation.
Not only do we need facilitiesfor people to be safe and for
the public to be safe that arenot jails, but we also need
services.
(11:13):
We need access to providers.
You know, in Barnstable Countyright now, our quote access for
people who don't have theability to private pay their way
through three to six to ninemonths to see someone.
That's not access andfinancially, insurance is a huge
issue.
So there's so many places alongthe spectrum that this is
(11:34):
broken.
But at the same time, I canspeak for myself as sheriff and
say I'm not waiting, I'm notwilling to let write people off
until we get this systemstraightened out.
So we have stepped forward herein Barnstable, we parted ways
with a private medical andmental health vendor and brought
our own staff inside.
We are retraining our staff.
(11:56):
They're all trained in mentalhealth first aid.
They're trained in cognitivebehavioral therapy.
We're working specifically on,you know, increasing the ability
of our staff to interact withthe populations that we have.
We're going to be hosting inSeptember, a training that
includes a focus on autism and afocus on correctional
(12:19):
behavioral health workers,because that's the job we're
asking them to do, so we have totrain them for that.
We're seeing success and maybe,if the answer to the question
that you have is that we rethink, I don't think the jail
facility itself is the bestplace to hold people, but if the
work that we can do is checkingoff all the boxes, then that's
(12:40):
a good thing.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah, now the unfortunate part is some of
these jails, prisons, they havesome people that are very bad
people in it.
They don't have serious mentalillness, autism or anything.
They're just bad people ingeneral.
So unfortunately, sometimes youhave situations where all these
(13:01):
people get put into the generalpopulation.
Then you have the worst of theworst.
You have autistic people,serious mental illness You've
got all them together.
You have autistic people,serious mental illness you've
got all them together, andthat's a bad mix.
What's the best way to handlesomething like that?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
So you are 100% right .
I'll talk specifically aboutBarnstable.
One of the things that weinstituted when I became sheriff
in January of 2023 was a casemanagement model.
So now every person who's inour facility has a case manager
and everyone has an assessment.
That helps us figure outplacement.
It helps us figure outclassification.
We also, as a rule, have aseparate housing unit for I call
(13:46):
them high profile, more serioustypes of cases.
That's not part of a generalpopulation unit, and then we
really do our best to meetpeople where they're at, whether
it's an orientation unit or aprogramming unit or different
levels of programming or specialmanagement.
We are making sure that we arenot putting people in worse
(14:06):
positions through the experienceof coming through the jail.
So that is a primary effort onour part.
I don't know.
The model that you described tome is sort of that
stereotypical state prison modelwhere you know everybody's here
and everybody's got to figureit out.
That is not how we operate.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Okay, now let's focus on your deputies.
How are they trained and howare they incorporated in the
changes that you have beentrying to make?
Speaker 2 (14:33):
So we actually call them corrections officers.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Those are the security staff who work in-house
and actually that's who I wasreferring to when I talked about
who we are training to dealwith the population.
So mental health first aid wasthe first thing that we did.
We've already put one cohortthrough and we're working on the
rest to make sure all of ourstaff have cognitive behavioral
therapy training.
We're going to be hosting it iscorrectional behavioral health
(14:59):
training and certification sothat we'll be hosting that in
the fall.
Health training andcertification so that we'll be
hosting that in the fall.
You know, we're asking peoplewho are signing up to be
security officers, to be medicaland mental health workers at
the same time, and what'sinteresting is that a lot of
people are interested in thatjob.
We are getting a lot of people.
It used to be I'll be acorrection officer till I can
get hired as a police officer.
(15:20):
That's not the track anymore.
We are getting people withsocial work backgrounds, with
human service backgrounds, whowant to come in and make a
difference.
The difference that they'remaking is in public safety,
because we are able to impactpeople while we have them.
The better shot they have inthe outside and the better we
can deliver on public safety andreduce recidivism.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
There's a judge down in Miami.
He's opened up a 218,000 squarefoot facility that incorporates
everything that people need.
I think he focuses more onserious mental illness than
anything else, but that's hispriority.
The facility's got dental, it'sgot medical, it's got beds.
(16:04):
It seems like it's a reallygood situation for those that
need help.
He also says that by doing this, the judicial system and the
court system sees less repeatoffenders.
So it kind of sounds like youare doing almost the same thing
as he is.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
It's what we, yes, it's what we need to be doing,
and the only physical facilities, unfortunately, that we have
are jails.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
You know the number of beds, I think right now, hang
on one second.
I have a statistic for you In1999, we had 1,170 beds.
Today we have less than 700.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
We don't have less sick people.
We actually have more sickpeople.
Covid did a number on our youthand we're starting to see that
as they become adults.
Our world is a very mean, cruel, tough place to live, full of
anxiety.
It's full of damages fromsocial media.
We're seeing people strugglingthat would never be in that
(17:03):
category before.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Right, and of course, we need to be concerned about
the youth that's between 17 and25 with serious mental illness,
because that seems to be the agegroup that that's most common
in.
So how do you incorporate thisall together?
I mean, you've got a bigger,wider world of people.
You're not just dealing withone type of person, and of
(17:26):
course there's no way of makingeverybody happy, because that's
just totally impossible.
So how do you get people tolook at this and say, whoa, this
is working.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
So I look at the work that we do here in sort of
three spaces.
We have a really robust youthprogram.
We work with both sort ofmainstream youth as well as
at-risk youth.
We do it through a summerprogram.
We do it through schoolvacation weeks because if we can
build and develop relationshipswith kids, especially kids who
are at risk, and keep thoserelationships going, maybe it's
(17:58):
less likely they spiral into thesystem.
Then we look at the work that wedo while we have people in our
custody.
The age-old choice is they cansit here and do their time and
then we let them out and we'vemet our responsibility.
But we know that doesn't makeus safe.
So we look at the work that wedo here is to try to figure out
individually what does eachperson need.
(18:19):
Do they need education?
Do they need vocationaltraining?
Do they need medical and mentalhealth services?
Do they need addictiontreatment?
Do they need a combination ofall of those things?
And we start that work the daythey walk in the door here.
And then the third place that weare trying to impact public
safety is when people arereleased.
So actually just last Friday weopened it's called the Bridge
(18:39):
Center, understanding that themost consequential thing that we
do at the sheriff's office islet someone out, because that is
the place where they're eithergoing to move into the positive
territory or revert back tonegative behavior.
And there's a victim, there'svictims, there's harm that
results if people revert back tonegative behavior.
(19:01):
So we have to figure out how tosupport people post-release
from the minute they walk outthe door when they are at their
most vulnerable, and ourcommunity is at its most
vulnerable when someone isreleased.
So the Bridge Center is aone-stop shop, an opportunity
for us to tie together all ofthe amazing resources that exist
(19:24):
in our community.
All that the person beingreleased needs to know is they
need to go one place, do theyneed help with a job?
Do they need help with housing?
Do they need food?
Do they need transportation?
Do they need mentors?
Do they need to go to a meeting?
Do they need a support group?
And there's community partnerswho have been knocking on our
door wanting to work with us inthis space.
(19:45):
Now we have actually a physicalfacility that brings all of
this together.
It's impossible for someonelike me to navigate all of the
services that we have.
I don't know about all of them.
Imagine if you're the persongetting out of jail who doesn't
many times append it to yourname, may not even have a ride.
(20:07):
You know that's all the work wetry to do while people are here
, but it's got to sustain it.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
Now, when you were elected, howdid the people that were there
accept what you wanted to do?
Because you wanted to come inand make some changes and, as we
know most people in most places, the one thing they hate is
change.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Oh, so you refer to the staff.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I'm going to knock on wood, but the staff that work
here are phenomenal.
Maybe it's because I spent themajority of my time working with
employees.
You know and understanding that, first of all, you can never
take them for granted, andchange people have to be brought
along.
You don't force change onpeople.
So we talked a lot.
(20:59):
Everyone who worked here knewhow I got elected and why I got
elected.
It was a very clear option A,option B campaign.
So there was no question aboutwhat I was sent here to do and
ultimately, we work for thetaxpayers.
So I think, having a clearvision, having a clear
understanding and bringing themalong with conversation with the
(21:21):
changes, making sure that theirneeds are met, they have all
the information and that theirfirst and foremost, especially
in this work, their safety isparamount.
Safety of the people who areincarcerated is paramount.
Helping get to a point where weunderstand that we don't just
do security that's not why weexist.
Exist because that doesn't makeus safer.
(21:43):
We do security so that we cando all of the other work, and
it's been amazing.
It's it's been absolutelytransformative here now the
system that you inherited.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
It did not have some of the changes that you have
going on now when you first came.
Is that that correct?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
It did not.
I mean, it was a system thatwas grounded in a very different
philosophy.
You brought up earlier that youknow the forward-facing law
enforcement patrol.
This sheriff's office, before Ibecame sheriff, was very much
interested in that area, so itwas a very different philosophy.
We're actually doing apresentation next month for the
(22:24):
AJA American Jail Association onSomething From Nothing.
So one of the examples of thatis when I came on, we housed
women, but we didn't have anywomen's programming.
So we developed from nothingwomen's programming, a women's
therapeutic treatment programwhich is designed to treat women
.
Women are offenders, but womenare also victims and women are
(22:48):
also caretakers.
One day we did a statistic wehad 95 women who had 109
children.
But you think about thecollateral consequences to our
public safety in the communitywhen those women are
incarcerated?
Start to talk aboutgenerational incarceration,
because now those kids thinkincarceration is part of their
(23:09):
future, because that's what mymom did, that's what you know,
that's what's in my family.
So we decided to work withfocus programs specifically for
women and it came from nothing.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Okay, so now we've covered a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Every given day.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
We've covered the people that work with you and
for you.
Now what about the inmatesthemselves?
Of course there were some thatwere there before you got there,
and then, of course, you've gotnewer ones coming in.
Did they see the differencesthat you brought?
And I guess the ultimatequestion is how did they adapt
(23:45):
to the change?
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Can you give me a minute, because I'm going to
read you something that Ireceived last week.
Is that okay?
Sure, all right, hang on onesecond.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
All right.
So last week I received areally long letter from a woman
who went through our treatmentprogram women's treatment
program.
I'm not going to read the wholething, so she goes through and
she thanks all of the differentstaff that she interact with.
I'll read you this part.
My family has made jokes that Icame out of jail with friends
(24:17):
and that is true.
I am still in touch with a fewinmates, both current and
released.
Once I'm finished with paroleI'm hoping to see them in person
.
One thing I found out thetransition back into a normal
life has not been as easy as Ithought it would be.
I have mentioned this toseveral people, including my
parole and probation ladies itwould be.
Now I'm skipping parts.
It would be nice if there wassome kind of a group for
released inmates that just dealswith transitioning back to life
(24:40):
outside of jail, from finding ajob to mental health there's a
five-month wait for therapy Tofinancial and credit health and
to taking care of your physicalhealth.
There's a lot to think aboutand do.
For me, there are days whenit's hard to get motivated.
I said to someone I could seewhy some people fall back into
bad habits.
Luckily I did not have a drugand alcohol issue and I have a
(25:01):
family that's there to supportme, but it's still a tough road
some days.
So I truly just want to saythank you for making what could
(25:23):
have been a real nightmare forme much more bearable.
When people ask me what jailwas like, they are surprised.
So that's her words.
Would you consider a programfor released inmates?
I would be in even if I have totravel.
So that's her words.
Another example we had someonewho has been in custody in
Barnstable County for themajority of his adult life and
(25:43):
he's probably in his 50s or 60s.
He was here when I was here asgeneral counsel.
He was here when I came in assheriff.
But through the work that wedid sort of refocusing instead
of just housing that person, weworked with the Department of
Mental Health and it wasn't easy, but we were finally able.
Even though he was a client ofthe Department of Mental Health,
(26:06):
they kept denying him services,so what we were able to do was
to figure out you know, how arewe going to house this person?
Anyway, the person had housing.
The person finally had supportand stayed out of here for the
longest time ever, found himselfback here recently.
But then those charges weredismissed but the behavior this
(26:27):
person was a high-maintenanceperson, self-injurious, but that
behavior didn't exist the lasttime they came back and when the
charges were dismissed, theyhad a stable place to go back to
.
So that's the kind of stuffthat we see all the time, but
we're working on it.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, that's great.
Well, this has been really good.
Great information andinformation that people really
need to hear.
I've had a lot of people comeon my podcast.
I don't believe I've had anyonethat has focused on this part
of the system, as you seem to be.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Well, thank you.
I, as you can tell, ampassionate about this.
I believe, as a sheriff, ourjob is public safety, and the
best way to keep the public safeis to make sure that when
people leave our jails, theydon't come back.
Public isn't their next victim.
That's why we do what we do, dothe work here to make sure that
(27:25):
the people in our community aresafe, that no one is their next
victim and that we're not thisrevolving door.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Yeah, well, this has been great conversation, great
information.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on and share
everything you're doing with us.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Thank you so much.
Good luck with your show, andif you ever want to talk some
more, or if you're ever out inMassachusetts and you want to
come visit us, let us know.
I certainly will.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Thanks again, talk some more, or if you're ever out
in Massachusetts and you wantto come visit us, let us know I
certainly will.
Thanks again, thanks for takingthe time out of your busy
schedule to listen to our showtoday.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
(28:13):
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me the World, everywhereabout why Not Me the World, the
conversations we're having andthe inspiration our guests give
(28:37):
to everyone everywhere that youare not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me , the World Podcast, hosted by
Tony Mantor, Broadcasting fromMusic City, USA, Nashville,
Tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Minotaur.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is SheriffDonna Buckley.
She has proudly served asBarnstable County Sheriff since
January 4, 2023.
She's the first female sheriffin Barnstable County's 333-year
history.
(01:12):
She began her career as thein-house counsel for the
National Association ofGovernment Employees
International Brotherhood ofPolice Officers.
After running her law officefor nine years, she worked at
the Massachusetts TeachersAssociation, delivering legal
services to the members of theteachers' union in the areas of
collective bargaining,grievances, arbitrations and
(01:35):
employment disputes.
She also taught criminal lawand related courses and, in 2018
, became the general counsel forthe Barnstable County Sheriff's
Office.
After that, she ran for sheriffand won.
She's here to tell us her story, and what a story it is.
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well, thank you for having me Important
conversations.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Well, it's my pleasure and, yes, very
important conversation.
Can you give us a littlebackground and more about your
journey on becoming sheriff ofyour county?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
and more about your journey on becoming sheriff of
your county.
It's sort of a nontraditionalpath to being sheriff.
I've spent my entire career asan attorney and in 2018, I
accepted a job as generalcounsel for the Barnstable
County Sheriff's Office.
In that position, I had anopportunity to see both what was
happening inside the sheriff'soffice, as well as be part of
(02:28):
one of the major criminaljustice reform legislations that
was passed in Massachusetts in2018, and think about you know
sort of how that was going to beimplemented, what other
sheriff's offices were doing andwhat we were doing.
And so, through that work, lotsof discussion about recidivism,
lots of discussion about mentalhealth and addiction being the
primary reason that people arein jail, and when the current
(02:52):
sheriff indicated that he wasgoing to retire, there was only
one candidate who steppedforward, and that candidate
didn't, in my view, seem toshare the priorities that were
necessary to address what washappening in the criminal
justice system, which was theprevalence of addiction and
mental health in people who areincarcerated and a lack of
(03:15):
recognition for the fact that alack of services,
pre-incarceration, pre-criminalbehavior is what led a lot of
people to spiral into thecriminal justice system.
So it was one of those put up orshut up moments where you know
you can't complain about the waythings are going if you're not
willing to do something.
And I was at a point in my lifewhere it's like you know what.
(03:35):
I have a responsibility to havea conversation with the
community about what we could bedoing at the sheriff's office,
especially in relation toincarceration.
So I ran with the purpose ofhaving that conversation and
giving people an option.
Other sheriff's offices inMassachusetts and throughout the
state were realizing that weneeded to not just lock people
(04:00):
up and then let them out whentheir time's up.
So we had the conversation andupset of upsets I won.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Well, some things are just meant to be.
What was your legal expertise?
Was it defense or prosecution?
What was the transition for youfrom legal to sheriff?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Well here?
No, actually I spent my careerbefore I came to the sheriff's
office representing publicemployees.
So I represented policeofficers, firefighters, public
school educators, so I actuallysat on the employee side of the
table for probably 90% of mycareer.
But I will say this no matterwhat side of the table you're on
(04:36):
, it is the employees who do thework, and unless we support
them and value the work that wedo, we can't provide the
services that we need to provide.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Sure, that makes sense.
Now, as I understand it, inyour county the sheriff doesn't
actually do a lot of patrolling,if any at all.
The sheriff actually maintainsthe jail system.
Can you expand on how thatworks for your particular area?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
It is, and it's interesting as you talk to
sheriffs throughout the countrybecause actually even within the
state each of us is different,which is the beauty of the
office.
So in Barnstable we run thejail, which includes lockups, so
pre-arraignment, pre-trial andsentence.
We house both males and females.
We run a Bureau of CriminalInvestigation, which is crime
(05:28):
scene investigations, whichsupports the police departments
throughout Barnstable County.
We run an Emergency 911Communications Center which
provides emergencycommunications for most of the
towns in Barnstable County andwe are a significant member of
the Regional Law EnforcementCouncil.
So we provide.
We have a canine unit, we havea drone unit, we have SWAT
(05:52):
people who participate in SWATand hostage negotiation and
search and rescue humantrafficking.
So we work side by side withthe local police departments.
But in Barnstable County thereis no need for us to also be
police patrol officers becauseevery town has their own police
department.
So for us to do that work whichwe could, but for us to do that
(06:14):
it would be redundant and, Idon't think, a good use of
taxpayer money.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Okay, now it's amazing that you bring that up.
I have spoken with severaljudges around the country and we
all seem to come back tofunding paid by taxpayers.
Many judges are trying todivert the people that come in
front of them with seriousmental illness away from the
(06:40):
prison system, because they findthat that usually means the
prison is actually being thehospital, and that's not what it
was intended to be.
By doing this, it canpotentially save the taxpayers
hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions, in
incarceration fees.
Now, with that being said, howdo you see this working within
(07:06):
the system that you do every day?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
You know, that would be the ideal If we didn't have
to incarcerate people.
That would certainly be ideal,but there's so many factors that
we need to think about in thereality that we live today.
First of all, the lack ofmental health and addiction
services that exist right now isone of the reasons why we have
people spiraling into jailbecause we have no place else to
(07:32):
put them.
That's a tragedy.
It's a tragedy because peoplewho, especially people who are
having a mental health crisisit's not a surprise that they
act unlawfully.
But we don't have theinfrastructure left because we
closed all of the residentialtreatment facilities back in the
80s.
We don't have the beds or theproviders to provide that
(07:54):
service in advance to preventsomeone from getting into a
crisis.
So I frequently say our jailsnot just mine, but the jails in
Massachusetts, the jails acrossthe country are de facto mental
health and addiction treatment.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, I've heard that said many times.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Now, that said, if we had the appropriate
infrastructure to keep peoplesupported who need support,
they've committed crimes.
They need something more thanjust go off and don't do it
again.
If we had those infrastructuresin place, then ideally we could
not put people in jail,although there are also
circumstances where people needa timeout.
(08:31):
They need to be separated fromthe community.
They need the time tounderstand what they did, be
held accountable and figure outwhat the next chapter looks like
.
So I think in Massachusettsright now, what we're seeing is
that our sheriffs are remarkablyamazingly filling two needs.
(08:52):
One, we are keeping people incustody who need to be in
custody.
For those people who there isno other option, people that are
here we are providing themedical and mental health
services.
We are providing the supports.
We are giving people the toolsor starting that work and I can
speak for myself here, but Iknow there are other sheriff's
(09:13):
offices as well who areunderstanding that that work is
a continuum.
It doesn't just happen whilepeople are incarcerated.
It has to continue post-release.
As sheriffs, we have theinfrastructure because we have
them within our facilities, sowe are able to seamlessly
provide that supportpost-release, and we have seen
(09:36):
some amazing examples of thatworking, especially for people
with mental health challenges.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
All right.
So it seems to me, fromspeaking with the various people
that I've spoken with, that ifthe sheriffs, the legislators,
the judges everybody that'sinvolved within the legal system
was to get together and sitdown with the legislators and
say, look, we have a problemhere, we need to tell them.
(10:05):
We can send the families hereone by one or we can
collectively get them together,but we have a problem and you
have the power to collectivelychange that.
Common sense tells me that thepeople that have the power could
get together, form a way offixing this and helping for
everyone involved.
How am I missing this point?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I don't think you're missing it.
I think that I've hadconversations with legislators
about the fact that there arephysical facilities that need to
be in place, provide servicesfor people, especially for
mental health services, and it'sa non-starter.
(10:53):
While everybody will pay lipservice to the fact that it was
the worst public policy decisionin the history of the world to
close all the residential mentalhealth facilities, nobody is
willing to step forward and saywe need new ones.
So I'm not giving up on thatconversation.
Not only do we need facilitiesfor people to be safe and for
the public to be safe that arenot jails, but we also need
services.
(11:13):
We need access to providers.
You know, in Barnstable Countyright now, our quote access for
people who don't have theability to private pay their way
through three to six to ninemonths to see someone.
That's not access andfinancially, insurance is a huge
issue.
So there's so many places alongthe spectrum that this is
(11:34):
broken.
But at the same time, I canspeak for myself as sheriff and
say I'm not waiting, I'm notwilling to let write people off
until we get this systemstraightened out.
So we have stepped forward herein Barnstable, we parted ways
with a private medical andmental health vendor and brought
our own staff inside.
We are retraining our staff.
(11:56):
They're all trained in mentalhealth first aid.
They're trained in cognitivebehavioral therapy.
We're working specifically on,you know, increasing the ability
of our staff to interact withthe populations that we have.
We're going to be hosting inSeptember, a training that
includes a focus on autism and afocus on correctional
(12:19):
behavioral health workers,because that's the job we're
asking them to do, so we have totrain them for that.
We're seeing success and maybe,if the answer to the question
that you have is that we rethink, I don't think the jail
facility itself is the bestplace to hold people, but if the
work that we can do is checkingoff all the boxes, then that's
(12:40):
a good thing.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah, now the unfortunate part is some of
these jails, prisons, they havesome people that are very bad
people in it.
They don't have serious mentalillness, autism or anything.
They're just bad people ingeneral.
So unfortunately, sometimes youhave situations where all these
(13:01):
people get put into the generalpopulation.
Then you have the worst of theworst.
You have autistic people,serious mental illness You've
got all them together.
You have autistic people,serious mental illness you've
got all them together, andthat's a bad mix.
What's the best way to handlesomething like that?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
So you are 100% right .
I'll talk specifically aboutBarnstable.
One of the things that weinstituted when I became sheriff
in January of 2023 was a casemanagement model.
So now every person who's inour facility has a case manager
and everyone has an assessment.
That helps us figure outplacement.
It helps us figure outclassification.
We also, as a rule, have aseparate housing unit for I call
(13:46):
them high profile, more serioustypes of cases.
That's not part of a generalpopulation unit, and then we
really do our best to meetpeople where they're at, whether
it's an orientation unit or aprogramming unit or different
levels of programming or specialmanagement.
We are making sure that we arenot putting people in worse
(14:06):
positions through the experienceof coming through the jail.
So that is a primary effort onour part.
I don't know.
The model that you described tome is sort of that
stereotypical state prison modelwhere you know everybody's here
and everybody's got to figureit out.
That is not how we operate.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Okay, now let's focus on your deputies.
How are they trained and howare they incorporated in the
changes that you have beentrying to make?
Speaker 2 (14:33):
So we actually call them corrections officers.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Those are the security staff who work in-house
and actually that's who I wasreferring to when I talked about
who we are training to dealwith the population.
So mental health first aid wasthe first thing that we did.
We've already put one cohortthrough and we're working on the
rest to make sure all of ourstaff have cognitive behavioral
therapy training.
We're going to be hosting it iscorrectional behavioral health
(14:59):
training and certification sothat we'll be hosting that in
the fall.
Health training andcertification so that we'll be
hosting that in the fall.
You know, we're asking peoplewho are signing up to be
security officers, to be medicaland mental health workers at
the same time, and what'sinteresting is that a lot of
people are interested in thatjob.
We are getting a lot of people.
It used to be I'll be acorrection officer till I can
get hired as a police officer.
(15:20):
That's not the track anymore.
We are getting people withsocial work backgrounds, with
human service backgrounds, whowant to come in and make a
difference.
The difference that they'remaking is in public safety,
because we are able to impactpeople while we have them.
The better shot they have inthe outside and the better we
can deliver on public safety andreduce recidivism.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
There's a judge down in Miami.
He's opened up a 218,000 squarefoot facility that incorporates
everything that people need.
I think he focuses more onserious mental illness than
anything else, but that's hispriority.
The facility's got dental, it'sgot medical, it's got beds.
(16:04):
It seems like it's a reallygood situation for those that
need help.
He also says that by doing this, the judicial system and the
court system sees less repeatoffenders.
So it kind of sounds like youare doing almost the same thing
as he is.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
It's what we, yes, it's what we need to be doing,
and the only physical facilities, unfortunately, that we have
are jails.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
You know the number of beds, I think right now, hang
on one second.
I have a statistic for you In1999, we had 1,170 beds.
Today we have less than 700.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
We don't have less sick people.
We actually have more sickpeople.
Covid did a number on our youthand we're starting to see that
as they become adults.
Our world is a very mean, cruel, tough place to live, full of
anxiety.
It's full of damages fromsocial media.
We're seeing people strugglingthat would never be in that
(17:03):
category before.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Right, and of course, we need to be concerned about
the youth that's between 17 and25 with serious mental illness,
because that seems to be the agegroup that that's most common
in.
So how do you incorporate thisall together?
I mean, you've got a bigger,wider world of people.
You're not just dealing withone type of person, and of
(17:26):
course there's no way of makingeverybody happy, because that's
just totally impossible.
So how do you get people tolook at this and say, whoa, this
is working.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
So I look at the work that we do here in sort of
three spaces.
We have a really robust youthprogram.
We work with both sort ofmainstream youth as well as
at-risk youth.
We do it through a summerprogram.
We do it through schoolvacation weeks because if we can
build and develop relationshipswith kids, especially kids who
are at risk, and keep thoserelationships going, maybe it's
(17:58):
less likely they spiral into thesystem.
Then we look at the work that wedo while we have people in our
custody.
The age-old choice is they cansit here and do their time and
then we let them out and we'vemet our responsibility.
But we know that doesn't makeus safe.
So we look at the work that wedo here is to try to figure out
individually what does eachperson need.
(18:19):
Do they need education?
Do they need vocationaltraining?
Do they need medical and mentalhealth services?
Do they need addictiontreatment?
Do they need a combination ofall of those things?
And we start that work the daythey walk in the door here.
And then the third place that weare trying to impact public
safety is when people arereleased.
So actually just last Friday weopened it's called the Bridge
(18:39):
Center, understanding that themost consequential thing that we
do at the sheriff's office islet someone out, because that is
the place where they're eithergoing to move into the positive
territory or revert back tonegative behavior.
And there's a victim, there'svictims, there's harm that
results if people revert back tonegative behavior.
(19:01):
So we have to figure out how tosupport people post-release
from the minute they walk outthe door when they are at their
most vulnerable, and ourcommunity is at its most
vulnerable when someone isreleased.
So the Bridge Center is aone-stop shop, an opportunity
for us to tie together all ofthe amazing resources that exist
(19:24):
in our community.
All that the person beingreleased needs to know is they
need to go one place, do theyneed help with a job?
Do they need help with housing?
Do they need food?
Do they need transportation?
Do they need mentors?
Do they need to go to a meeting?
Do they need a support group?
And there's community partnerswho have been knocking on our
door wanting to work with us inthis space.
(19:45):
Now we have actually a physicalfacility that brings all of
this together.
It's impossible for someonelike me to navigate all of the
services that we have.
I don't know about all of them.
Imagine if you're the persongetting out of jail who doesn't
many times append it to yourname, may not even have a ride.
(20:07):
You know that's all the work wetry to do while people are here
, but it's got to sustain it.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
Now, when you were elected, howdid the people that were there
accept what you wanted to do?
Because you wanted to come inand make some changes and, as we
know most people in most places, the one thing they hate is
change.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Oh, so you refer to the staff.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I'm going to knock on wood, but the staff that work
here are phenomenal.
Maybe it's because I spent themajority of my time working with
employees.
You know and understanding that, first of all, you can never
take them for granted, andchange people have to be brought
along.
You don't force change onpeople.
So we talked a lot.
(20:59):
Everyone who worked here knewhow I got elected and why I got
elected.
It was a very clear option A,option B campaign.
So there was no question aboutwhat I was sent here to do and
ultimately, we work for thetaxpayers.
So I think, having a clearvision, having a clear
understanding and bringing themalong with conversation with the
(21:21):
changes, making sure that theirneeds are met, they have all
the information and that theirfirst and foremost, especially
in this work, their safety isparamount.
Safety of the people who areincarcerated is paramount.
Helping get to a point where weunderstand that we don't just
do security that's not why weexist.
Exist because that doesn't makeus safer.
(21:43):
We do security so that we cando all of the other work, and
it's been amazing.
It's it's been absolutelytransformative here now the
system that you inherited.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
It did not have some of the changes that you have
going on now when you first came.
Is that that correct?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
It did not.
I mean, it was a system thatwas grounded in a very different
philosophy.
You brought up earlier that youknow the forward-facing law
enforcement patrol.
This sheriff's office, before Ibecame sheriff, was very much
interested in that area, so itwas a very different philosophy.
We're actually doing apresentation next month for the
(22:24):
AJA American Jail Association onSomething From Nothing.
So one of the examples of thatis when I came on, we housed
women, but we didn't have anywomen's programming.
So we developed from nothingwomen's programming, a women's
therapeutic treatment programwhich is designed to treat women
.
Women are offenders, but womenare also victims and women are
(22:48):
also caretakers.
One day we did a statistic wehad 95 women who had 109
children.
But you think about thecollateral consequences to our
public safety in the communitywhen those women are
incarcerated?
Start to talk aboutgenerational incarceration,
because now those kids thinkincarceration is part of their
(23:09):
future, because that's what mymom did, that's what you know,
that's what's in my family.
So we decided to work withfocus programs specifically for
women and it came from nothing.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Okay, so now we've covered a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Every given day.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
We've covered the people that work with you and
for you.
Now what about the inmatesthemselves?
Of course there were some thatwere there before you got there,
and then, of course, you've gotnewer ones coming in.
Did they see the differencesthat you brought?
And I guess the ultimatequestion is how did they adapt
(23:45):
to the change?
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Can you give me a minute, because I'm going to
read you something that Ireceived last week.
Is that okay?
Sure, all right, hang on onesecond.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
All right.
So last week I received areally long letter from a woman
who went through our treatmentprogram women's treatment
program.
I'm not going to read the wholething, so she goes through and
she thanks all of the differentstaff that she interact with.
I'll read you this part.
My family has made jokes that Icame out of jail with friends
(24:17):
and that is true.
I am still in touch with a fewinmates, both current and
released.
Once I'm finished with paroleI'm hoping to see them in person
.
One thing I found out thetransition back into a normal
life has not been as easy as Ithought it would be.
I have mentioned this toseveral people, including my
parole and probation ladies itwould be.
Now I'm skipping parts.
It would be nice if there wassome kind of a group for
released inmates that just dealswith transitioning back to life
(24:40):
outside of jail, from finding ajob to mental health there's a
five-month wait for therapy Tofinancial and credit health and
to taking care of your physicalhealth.
There's a lot to think aboutand do.
For me, there are days whenit's hard to get motivated.
I said to someone I could seewhy some people fall back into
bad habits.
Luckily I did not have a drugand alcohol issue and I have a
(25:01):
family that's there to supportme, but it's still a tough road
some days.
So I truly just want to saythank you for making what could
(25:23):
have been a real nightmare forme much more bearable.
When people ask me what jailwas like, they are surprised.
So that's her words.
Would you consider a programfor released inmates?
I would be in even if I have totravel.
So that's her words.
Another example we had someonewho has been in custody in
Barnstable County for themajority of his adult life and
(25:43):
he's probably in his 50s or 60s.
He was here when I was here asgeneral counsel.
He was here when I came in assheriff.
But through the work that wedid sort of refocusing instead
of just housing that person, weworked with the Department of
Mental Health and it wasn't easy, but we were finally able.
Even though he was a client ofthe Department of Mental Health,
(26:06):
they kept denying him services,so what we were able to do was
to figure out you know, how arewe going to house this person?
Anyway, the person had housing.
The person finally had supportand stayed out of here for the
longest time ever, found himselfback here recently.
But then those charges weredismissed but the behavior this
(26:27):
person was a high-maintenanceperson, self-injurious, but that
behavior didn't exist the lasttime they came back and when the
charges were dismissed, theyhad a stable place to go back to
.
So that's the kind of stuffthat we see all the time, but
we're working on it.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, that's great.
Well, this has been really good.
Great information andinformation that people really
need to hear.
I've had a lot of people comeon my podcast.
I don't believe I've had anyonethat has focused on this part
of the system, as you seem to be.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Well, thank you.
I, as you can tell, ampassionate about this.
I believe, as a sheriff, ourjob is public safety, and the
best way to keep the public safeis to make sure that when
people leave our jails, theydon't come back.
Public isn't their next victim.
That's why we do what we do, dothe work here to make sure that
(27:25):
the people in our community aresafe, that no one is their next
victim and that we're not thisrevolving door.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Yeah, well, this has been great conversation, great
information.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on and share
everything you're doing with us.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Thank you so much.
Good luck with your show, andif you ever want to talk some
more, or if you're ever out inMassachusetts and you want to
come visit us, let us know.
I certainly will.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Thanks again, talk some more, or if you're ever out
in Massachusetts and you wantto come visit us, let us know I
certainly will.
Thanks again, thanks for takingthe time out of your busy
schedule to listen to our showtoday.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
(28:13):
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me the World, everywhereabout why Not Me the World, the
conversations we're having andthe inspiration our guests give
(28:37):
to everyone everywhere that youare not alone in this world.
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