April 26, 2025 • 25 mins
Carol Nistakis shares her family's painful journey through the justice system after her autistic son was manipulated into illegal activity by a neighbor.
Her decade-long fight for justice led her to cofound D3, an organization helping families navigate the unique challenges autistic individuals face in legal proceedings.
• Began advocating when son was diagnosed at age 2, ensuring proper education and support
• Son functioned at age 10 level but was active in Special Olympics and held a part-time job
• 2012 incident led to 19 felony charges that were eventually reduced to one misdemeanor
• Court showed little interest in son's diagnosis despite extensive documentation
• Plea deal resulted in 2 years probation and 10 years on registry
• Son lost access to Special Olympics, recreation activities, and eventually his job
• Family was separated as son could no longer live at home due to restrictions
• Financial burden depleted savings meant for son's long-term care
• After 10 years, Carol secured a pardon and expungement without legal help
• Advocates for special courts with judges trained to understand autism
• Stresses that behaviors are manifestations of disability, not criminal intent
• Current autism rate is 1 in 31 children, making justice system reform urgent
Tell everyone everywhere about Why Not Me, the world, the conversations we're having and the inspiration our guests give to everyone everywhere that you are not alone in this world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:28):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantour.
(00:54):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is CarolNistakis, vice president and
co-founder of D3, anorganization devoted to
supporting autistic individualsnavigating the complexities of
the legal system.
Her journey began with herson's challenging experiences
(01:16):
within the justice system, whichexposed the unique struggles
faced by autistic individualsand their families.
These deeply personalencounters inspired her to
advocate for systematic change,provide resources and offer
guidance to others facingsimilar obstacles.
She's here to share how herexperiences shaped her family's
(01:38):
path and fueled her commitmentto transforming the legal
landscape for autisticindividuals.
It's a pleasure to have youhere, carol.
Could you tell us how theseevents sparked your journey and
led to your advocacy?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Ever since my son was born, probably, there showed
signs that there was somethingnot quite right.
So when he was two I alreadystarted having him tested.
So I became an advocate becauseI had to make sure that he got
the best education that he couldget in the schools.
(02:16):
That being said, I had toeducate myself.
I had to educate myself andlearn about all his rights.
I had to make sure he had theproper IEPs for school, his
educational plan.
I had to make sure I was at allthe meetings.
I made sure I was at theschools observing and
volunteering all the way through, at least through grade school,
(02:39):
because high school is a littlebit different.
You're not able to be asinvolved in there, but I was as
involved as I could be.
So that is how I became anadvocate, first of all for
developmental disabilities.
My son has an intellectualdisability.
He has a lot of autisticcharacteristics but he functions
(03:00):
as about 10 years old.
How old is he now?
He's 38.
So he's not going to functionat any higher level than that.
You know there are some peopleon the spectrum that you know
are very intelligent and it allhas to do with behavioral
(03:24):
process and differences in thebrain and there's been a lot of
research done on that.
So they know that there is adifference in the brain of
someone with autism, someonewho's neurotypical.
So I did advocate for him allthe way through, even when he
got a job that had to go througha human resources department
and he had to have a job coach,and a job that had to go through
, you know, a human resourcesdepartment and he had to have a
(03:45):
job coach and a jobadministrator.
So even after he became anadult, I advocated for him.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
So he was able to work then.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
You know, he worked in a small part-time job and did
Special Olympics and he didspecial recreation, where he did
activities with his peers.
I thought you know everythingwas okay.
But there was a neighbor nextdoor who had some disabilities
also.
He lived next door and hemanipulated my son into doing
(04:18):
something he shouldn't have doneand police were involved.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
How long ago was this that this happened?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
That was in 2012.
So my son was 25 then andpolice became involved.
Then we started our journey Ishould say nightmare, not
journey in the systems for thenext year.
I had a couple attorneys, but Ialso had good support.
I had good support attorneys,but I also had good support.
(04:48):
I had good support.
I had a retired assistantdistrict attorney who was with
us all the way through, andanother friend who was an
attorney and we were supportedby, you know, family, friends
and you know coworkers andthings like that.
So, but in the end, he did haveto take a plea deal, which
seems to be the case for justabout all of these kids.
Even though you know wesubmitted evaluations and
(05:11):
paperwork and documents andmedical forms.
They really didn't take any ofthat.
They realized it because theynever even asked my son a
question at all.
Zero questions in court.
They never asked him anything.
They never.
You know, everything wentthrough the attorneys.
He didn't even speak at court,he just stood up there.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So it's pretty obvious they didn't give the
attention to his autisticdiagnosis that they probably
should have.
Did you get any reasons forthat?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Basically because, well, prosecutors are there to
win their cases and nobody'sreally educated even trying to
find an attorney to, you know,defend us.
They were very sympathetic.
We had two attorneys.
They were very sympathetic andthey were willing to make sure
(06:03):
that.
You know, they took this intoconsideration, but you know the
court's not educated.
So I don't really even know howmuch the judge knew, because
the prosecutor had all thedocuments and everything and you
know you have to wonder doesthe judge even know what's going
on here?
Because it seems like theprosecutors have all the power.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
So, once the verdict came down, what was the result
from that?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Well, we took.
Actually, you know, in the verybeginning they had him charged
with 19 felony charges and bythe time we were done, we pled
down to one misdemeanor charge,which gave him two years on
probation and 10 years on theregistry.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
So before that you said he was in the Special
Olympics.
Yes, what kind of competitiondid he do with that?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Oh, he did everything .
He did bowling, swimming, hedid powerlifting, he did bocce
ball.
He pretty much involved himselfin everything that he could do
because physically he was fine.
So you know, he played softballand lots, of, lots of
(07:19):
activities.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
That's great that he enjoyed that.
So now that he had to take thatplea deal, what happened then?
I'm sure that changed the wholelandscape.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
It changed his whole life.
I mean, he was still workingthe part-time job, but all his
activities stopped because whenI went to the Special Olympics
and Special RecreationOrganization, they had told me
that this is not anything theyhaven't seen before.
You know, these kids gettingcaught up in the system, but
(07:52):
their attorneys would not allowhim to participate in it anymore
because it was a liability.
So all that stopped All hissocial activities, all his
Special Olympics.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
That's pretty sad to hear.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
He lost his job soon after.
They said he didn't pick upsome cigarettes in the parking
lot, which seemed really crazy,but I have a feeling they found
out about it.
So he lost job too andbasically he also had to move
out of our home.
So we had to spend money andbuy a condo and because he can't
(08:32):
live on his own, my husbandmoved out with him.
So then I stayed in my houseand my husband and my son for
those two years he was onprobation they also put an ankle
bracelet on him.
They stayed in the condo, whichwas close to the home, but it
still separated our family.
So it broke up the family.
It caused us a lot of financialharm because you know court
(08:54):
system, going through the courts, paying for your attorneys and
such we had to use a lot ofmoney that was supposed to go
for my son's future care.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Sure, I mean, that sounds really tough.
So what happened next?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Then we ended up selling the house after about
five years and I moved into thecondo with my two dogs.
It was a one-bedroom condo andwe just moved in and that was
the price we had to pay, becausethat condo was not near any
schools or daycares or anythinglike that.
(09:31):
It was more of a senior area.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
After this I think you got more intense in advocacy
, correct?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
I continued to fight.
In 2015 with another parentfrom Virginia, brian Calmore.
We started decriminalizing well, it was LRID then, but we
started advocating and startedour organization because we
found out there are a lot of us.
There's a lot of us out thereand it's still happening.
(09:57):
We founded our organization.
That kept me busy and I justkept working on.
We did a post-convictionpetition for my son to see if we
could get that back in court.
That was denied and then I juststarted working on a pardon.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So how did you move forward with that?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
On my own, without an attorney, because we really
were, you know, strapped forcash then.
Because we really were strappedfor cash, then we had to pay
for the initial attorneys andthen we had two more attorneys
for the post-conviction petitionand they happened to be two
retired judges from thatcourthouse and they still
couldn't win the case.
(10:35):
So I worked on a pardon on myown.
It took me 10 years.
How did that go?
Working by yourself.
I did get my son a pardon andan expungement, but I will tell
you that the damage is done.
My son is not the same young manhe was before all this happened
.
He was social and you know, hewas working a job.
(10:57):
He was working a job, he wascontributing to society.
He sat home for 10 years.
Physically, you know, he gainedweight and he wasn't moving
around.
So that took a toll on himphysically.
Mentally, he doesn't trustanybody anymore.
He doesn't trust anybody.
He has frequent meltdowns now.
(11:19):
He's just not sociable like heused to be.
So it's taken a toll on him.
He's just I don't know if he'llever be the same person he was
before.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, and not only that, but if it's taken a toll
on him, it's taken on the familyas well.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I will tell you that mentally Isuffered and my husband
suffered too Greatly.
You know it was difficult.
There was many, many, manynights of no sleeping and
anxiety attacks and just, youknow, just breakdowns because
(11:57):
you don't think that somethinglike this could ever, ever
happen and you fight for yourlife to try and win.
And thank goodness he didn'thave to go to prison, because
the horror stories that we hearabout these individuals with
autism in the prisons isunbelievably sad.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yes, I've spoke with several people that their sons
or daughters have ended up inthe prison system, and it's not
a pretty sight at all.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
No no.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
With everything that you've been through.
Now you're looking back at it.
Is there anything that you seethat now you might have done a
little differently?
That might have changed theoutcome?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Well, now that I've learned what I've learned
through our organization overthe years, you know there are
psychologists out there that aretrained to evaluate.
We did have an evaluation.
My attorneys weren't.
They really didn't want to useit.
I needed someone trained topresent to the courts and that
(13:09):
are trained in autism and howautism works and developmental
disabilities as a whole.
So I would have gotten, I wouldhave definitely found someone
who was trained and I probably Idid get myself out there and I
did, you know, make sure mystory was out there and that I
(13:30):
probably there was some pressthat wanted to come in the
courtroom and my attorney said,no, that wouldn't be a good idea
.
I probably would have had himin there.
I just think my attorney shouldhave been educated more and if
I could have, you know, donesomething to educate the court,
I would have done that also.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So how do we get them educated?
They go to work every day.
They do what they do.
Like you said, they're outthere to win, but sometimes
compassion has to come into thepicture.
They have to have a littleempathy towards the people
they're prosecuting, and it'snot like the majority of
autistic people are out therejust trying to figure out how
(14:11):
they can be bad.
Sometimes they're the victims.
So how do we get that across tothem so that they can better
understand?
And then, with all of thistogether, it's a win-win for
everyone.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yes, and right now they changed the stats where
it's one in 31 children born now.
So they really, really have todo something.
I think that and they've doneit in some places they need
special courts where, say, maybethere's five judges who are
willing to be trained and fivedefense attorneys and
(14:49):
prosecutors that are willing todo that, and you know they can
combine it with mental healthcourts because they do have that
.
But you know it's not somethingthat is curable.
So they have to learn theanatomy of the brain and how all
this plays into effect.
But if they were to do that, ifthey were to just get a court
where any judge willing toeducate themselves, yes, I agree
(15:14):
that would help tremendously.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
It totally amazes me.
My podcast this month and nextmonth is having 61 straight
episodes about autism, mentalhealth and the legal system.
My first guest this month was ajudge in Las Vegas.
She runs a court system thatdiverts the kids out of the
(15:36):
legal system as much as possible.
It's the only one in thecountry that does this.
It just shocks me that if shecan do it, no one else is trying
to do it either.
It didn't start out that way,but it just turned into one then
another.
Now she's the only court systemin Las Vegas and the country
(15:59):
that does this type of legalsystem for autistic children.
My issue is if she can do it,others around the country should
be looking and saying why can'twe do something like this?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
And these diversion laws arereally important.
I mean, virginia has it andMaryland's trying to get it, and
if that bill were to spreadthrough all the states?
You know, to divert these kids,these young adults, before they
even get in the court systemwould save a lot of grief and
(16:35):
money.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Millions.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Oh yeah, so divert them right there in the
beginning.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yes, absolutely.
I have a judge coming on thelatter part of this month.
He started a 218,000 squarefoot facility.
It covers a lot of mentalhealth issues, along with health
, dental and many other thingshe found by diverting them to
this.
As a rule, you don't see themthe second time.
It also saves the taxpayershundreds and hundreds of
(17:04):
thousands of dollars.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yes, and you know money talks.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
So that would be important.
If it's too bad, maybe theycouldn't get out there and
promote it more.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, unfortunately, we're in a situation where this
country and the judicial systemfor autistic people has lost
control.
It's sad we have not been ableto make things better, but here
we are 2025.
Another sad thing I heard theother day that the country's
biggest healthcare facility isthe LA County Prison, and that
(17:41):
shouldn't be prison, and thatshouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
No, no, yeah, they're using the prisons just to house
people.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
So true.
So if you would tell us alittle bit more about what you
do with your charity, in tryingto bring this to the attention
to the people that need to hearabout it.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Well, we can do some legislative work.
As a nonprofit, we can't do alot.
Our main focus is advocatingand giving these families
resources so that maybe they canget their child out of the
system.
So we work with psychologistsand attorneys that are willing
(18:24):
to educate themselves.
I would love to get the wordout there more if we were.
We don't have a lot of fundsright now.
I mean, we're just becoming anonprofit.
That would be huge where wecould really get the word out
and start, you know, movingacross the country a little bit
better if we had the funds forthat, because it's really the
(18:46):
public that we have to.
We have to show them that.
You know it's not strangerdanger For me.
It was someone I trusted nextdoor, you know, and that is
typically always the case.
You know these kids getmanipulated and they're so
trusting and they will trustanybody.
So I think that getting thepublic to understand that they
(19:12):
shouldn't be afraid of some youknow boogeyman coming, that it
could be teachers and coaches,and you know people they know.
So you know what they've triedto tell the public.
And I have to admit, when mychildren were younger and I
wasn't in this situation.
You know it's a scary thought.
(19:32):
You watch over your childrenbut they're showing now that you
know all these registries withrestrictions on residents and
things you can and can't do, andthey don't work, especially for
the autistic person, becauseyou know it just ruins their
life totally.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, unfortunately it is just so out of control.
It's kind of like when a kiddoes something bad, you don't
say anything.
30 days later you start toreprimand him for what he did.
He doesn't understand it.
He's really confused about it.
So to put that into our courtsystem, we've let it get so far
(20:10):
out of control that now youcan't go back and slap them on
the wrist because it's just outof control.
Somehow we have to get thejudges, the lawyers, the DAs.
We have to get them educatedabout autism so that way they
can look at it different andthen show a little compassion
(20:31):
and empathy towards the victimsget reelected and so it's the
public that they listen to andthat's why I say it.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
You know the public has to start changing their mind
and there are some people thathave come out.
The lady, the Wetterling lady,who started the registry way
back or proposed the registryway back, has changed her mind
on this.
She's become outspoken about itbut nobody's listening.
Really that's the problem.
(21:06):
And with our organization, whenwe try and go to the
legislatures and that and youtalk about, you know, the sex
word, you know they shut thatdown right away.
So we try to really concentrateon, you know, the individual,
the autism and why they'redifferent and why you know they
(21:29):
can be manipulated and why a lotof this is just a behavior, a
manifestation of theirdisability, and there's no
criminal intent involved.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Exactly, I hear that comment so much.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
That was pretty much.
You know, when I went for mypardon I made sure that I had
police chiefs and, like thisretired state's attorney and
everything, write letters to saythat and that is, I think, how
I managed to get my pardon,because the prison review board
was really open to their lettersof support.
You know, as far as the publicgoes, yeah, I think that's a
(22:07):
huge issue.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
The public just does not understand.
I started this podcast lessthan two years ago and up until
that point I knew absolutelynothing about autism.
Now that I've learned more andunderstand it more, I look at
things completely different thanI used to.
There's enough informationcoming out now so that if people
(22:28):
would actually dig into it alittle bit, they would find that
autism is not the perceptionthat they once thought it was.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Right, exactly, exactly.
Yeah, it's a constant push anda lot of other organizations
they do help.
They do a lot to help, butgetting into the criminal system
, that's a hard subject.
It's a hard subject and that'swhy our organization, we get
into it.
I mean we're in the mud with itand try and help these people
(22:58):
the best we can.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, that's a great thing that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So what would you like to tell the listeners that
you think it's very importantthat they need to know about
what you're doing?
I would say that educatingyourself on the differences in
the brain that's so important tolearn, because it's totally
different how the social aspectof individuals that are
developmentally disabled, howthey function and you know how
their behaviors are differentfrom someone neurotypical.
(23:31):
And I would say you really,really have to go and educate
yourself because, once again,when they get caught in the
system, it's a manifestation ofthese disabilities.
It is not any intent that'smeant to harm anyone or, you
know, commit a crime, and that'sso unfortunate because we have
(23:52):
to stop that.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
Well, this has been great Goodconversation, good information.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
No, no problem, Anytime.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you, enjoyed it as much as weenjoyed bringing it to you.
(24:28):
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere.
Tell everyone everywhere aboutwhy Not Me, the world, the
conversations we're having andthe inspiration our guests give
(24:50):
to everyone everywhere that youare not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:28):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantour.
(00:54):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is CarolNistakis, vice president and
co-founder of D3, anorganization devoted to
supporting autistic individualsnavigating the complexities of
the legal system.
Her journey began with herson's challenging experiences
(01:16):
within the justice system, whichexposed the unique struggles
faced by autistic individualsand their families.
These deeply personalencounters inspired her to
advocate for systematic change,provide resources and offer
guidance to others facingsimilar obstacles.
She's here to share how herexperiences shaped her family's
(01:38):
path and fueled her commitmentto transforming the legal
landscape for autisticindividuals.
It's a pleasure to have youhere, carol.
Could you tell us how theseevents sparked your journey and
led to your advocacy?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Ever since my son was born, probably, there showed
signs that there was somethingnot quite right.
So when he was two I alreadystarted having him tested.
So I became an advocate becauseI had to make sure that he got
the best education that he couldget in the schools.
(02:16):
That being said, I had toeducate myself.
I had to educate myself andlearn about all his rights.
I had to make sure he had theproper IEPs for school, his
educational plan.
I had to make sure I was at allthe meetings.
I made sure I was at theschools observing and
volunteering all the way through, at least through grade school,
(02:39):
because high school is a littlebit different.
You're not able to be asinvolved in there, but I was as
involved as I could be.
So that is how I became anadvocate, first of all for
developmental disabilities.
My son has an intellectualdisability.
He has a lot of autisticcharacteristics but he functions
(03:00):
as about 10 years old.
How old is he now?
He's 38.
So he's not going to functionat any higher level than that.
You know there are some peopleon the spectrum that you know
are very intelligent and it allhas to do with behavioral
(03:24):
process and differences in thebrain and there's been a lot of
research done on that.
So they know that there is adifference in the brain of
someone with autism, someonewho's neurotypical.
So I did advocate for him allthe way through, even when he
got a job that had to go througha human resources department
and he had to have a job coach,and a job that had to go through
, you know, a human resourcesdepartment and he had to have a
(03:45):
job coach and a jobadministrator.
So even after he became anadult, I advocated for him.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
So he was able to work then.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
You know, he worked in a small part-time job and did
Special Olympics and he didspecial recreation, where he did
activities with his peers.
I thought you know everythingwas okay.
But there was a neighbor nextdoor who had some disabilities
also.
He lived next door and hemanipulated my son into doing
(04:18):
something he shouldn't have doneand police were involved.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
How long ago was this that this happened?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
That was in 2012.
So my son was 25 then andpolice became involved.
Then we started our journey Ishould say nightmare, not
journey in the systems for thenext year.
I had a couple attorneys, but Ialso had good support.
I had good support attorneys,but I also had good support.
(04:48):
I had good support.
I had a retired assistantdistrict attorney who was with
us all the way through, andanother friend who was an
attorney and we were supportedby, you know, family, friends
and you know coworkers andthings like that.
So, but in the end, he did haveto take a plea deal, which
seems to be the case for justabout all of these kids.
Even though you know wesubmitted evaluations and
(05:11):
paperwork and documents andmedical forms.
They really didn't take any ofthat.
They realized it because theynever even asked my son a
question at all.
Zero questions in court.
They never asked him anything.
They never.
You know, everything wentthrough the attorneys.
He didn't even speak at court,he just stood up there.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So it's pretty obvious they didn't give the
attention to his autisticdiagnosis that they probably
should have.
Did you get any reasons forthat?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Basically because, well, prosecutors are there to
win their cases and nobody'sreally educated even trying to
find an attorney to, you know,defend us.
They were very sympathetic.
We had two attorneys.
They were very sympathetic andthey were willing to make sure
(06:03):
that.
You know, they took this intoconsideration, but you know the
court's not educated.
So I don't really even know howmuch the judge knew, because
the prosecutor had all thedocuments and everything and you
know you have to wonder doesthe judge even know what's going
on here?
Because it seems like theprosecutors have all the power.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
So, once the verdict came down, what was the result
from that?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Well, we took.
Actually, you know, in the verybeginning they had him charged
with 19 felony charges and bythe time we were done, we pled
down to one misdemeanor charge,which gave him two years on
probation and 10 years on theregistry.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
So before that you said he was in the Special
Olympics.
Yes, what kind of competitiondid he do with that?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Oh, he did everything .
He did bowling, swimming, hedid powerlifting, he did bocce
ball.
He pretty much involved himselfin everything that he could do
because physically he was fine.
So you know, he played softballand lots, of, lots of
(07:19):
activities.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
That's great that he enjoyed that.
So now that he had to take thatplea deal, what happened then?
I'm sure that changed the wholelandscape.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
It changed his whole life.
I mean, he was still workingthe part-time job, but all his
activities stopped because whenI went to the Special Olympics
and Special RecreationOrganization, they had told me
that this is not anything theyhaven't seen before.
You know, these kids gettingcaught up in the system, but
(07:52):
their attorneys would not allowhim to participate in it anymore
because it was a liability.
So all that stopped All hissocial activities, all his
Special Olympics.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
That's pretty sad to hear.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
He lost his job soon after.
They said he didn't pick upsome cigarettes in the parking
lot, which seemed really crazy,but I have a feeling they found
out about it.
So he lost job too andbasically he also had to move
out of our home.
So we had to spend money andbuy a condo and because he can't
(08:32):
live on his own, my husbandmoved out with him.
So then I stayed in my houseand my husband and my son for
those two years he was onprobation they also put an ankle
bracelet on him.
They stayed in the condo, whichwas close to the home, but it
still separated our family.
So it broke up the family.
It caused us a lot of financialharm because you know court
(08:54):
system, going through the courts, paying for your attorneys and
such we had to use a lot ofmoney that was supposed to go
for my son's future care.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Sure, I mean, that sounds really tough.
So what happened next?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Then we ended up selling the house after about
five years and I moved into thecondo with my two dogs.
It was a one-bedroom condo andwe just moved in and that was
the price we had to pay, becausethat condo was not near any
schools or daycares or anythinglike that.
(09:31):
It was more of a senior area.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
After this I think you got more intense in advocacy
, correct?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
I continued to fight.
In 2015 with another parentfrom Virginia, brian Calmore.
We started decriminalizing well, it was LRID then, but we
started advocating and startedour organization because we
found out there are a lot of us.
There's a lot of us out thereand it's still happening.
(09:57):
We founded our organization.
That kept me busy and I justkept working on.
We did a post-convictionpetition for my son to see if we
could get that back in court.
That was denied and then I juststarted working on a pardon.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So how did you move forward with that?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
On my own, without an attorney, because we really
were, you know, strapped forcash then.
Because we really were strappedfor cash, then we had to pay
for the initial attorneys andthen we had two more attorneys
for the post-conviction petitionand they happened to be two
retired judges from thatcourthouse and they still
couldn't win the case.
(10:35):
So I worked on a pardon on myown.
It took me 10 years.
How did that go?
Working by yourself.
I did get my son a pardon andan expungement, but I will tell
you that the damage is done.
My son is not the same young manhe was before all this happened
.
He was social and you know, hewas working a job.
(10:57):
He was working a job, he wascontributing to society.
He sat home for 10 years.
Physically, you know, he gainedweight and he wasn't moving
around.
So that took a toll on himphysically.
Mentally, he doesn't trustanybody anymore.
He doesn't trust anybody.
He has frequent meltdowns now.
(11:19):
He's just not sociable like heused to be.
So it's taken a toll on him.
He's just I don't know if he'llever be the same person he was
before.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, and not only that, but if it's taken a toll
on him, it's taken on the familyas well.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I will tell you that mentally Isuffered and my husband
suffered too Greatly.
You know it was difficult.
There was many, many, manynights of no sleeping and
anxiety attacks and just, youknow, just breakdowns because
(11:57):
you don't think that somethinglike this could ever, ever
happen and you fight for yourlife to try and win.
And thank goodness he didn'thave to go to prison, because
the horror stories that we hearabout these individuals with
autism in the prisons isunbelievably sad.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yes, I've spoke with several people that their sons
or daughters have ended up inthe prison system, and it's not
a pretty sight at all.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
No no.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
With everything that you've been through.
Now you're looking back at it.
Is there anything that you seethat now you might have done a
little differently?
That might have changed theoutcome?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Well, now that I've learned what I've learned
through our organization overthe years, you know there are
psychologists out there that aretrained to evaluate.
We did have an evaluation.
My attorneys weren't.
They really didn't want to useit.
I needed someone trained topresent to the courts and that
(13:09):
are trained in autism and howautism works and developmental
disabilities as a whole.
So I would have gotten, I wouldhave definitely found someone
who was trained and I probably Idid get myself out there and I
did, you know, make sure mystory was out there and that I
(13:30):
probably there was some pressthat wanted to come in the
courtroom and my attorney said,no, that wouldn't be a good idea
.
I probably would have had himin there.
I just think my attorney shouldhave been educated more and if
I could have, you know, donesomething to educate the court,
I would have done that also.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So how do we get them educated?
They go to work every day.
They do what they do.
Like you said, they're outthere to win, but sometimes
compassion has to come into thepicture.
They have to have a littleempathy towards the people
they're prosecuting, and it'snot like the majority of
autistic people are out therejust trying to figure out how
(14:11):
they can be bad.
Sometimes they're the victims.
So how do we get that across tothem so that they can better
understand?
And then, with all of thistogether, it's a win-win for
everyone.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yes, and right now they changed the stats where
it's one in 31 children born now.
So they really, really have todo something.
I think that and they've doneit in some places they need
special courts where, say, maybethere's five judges who are
willing to be trained and fivedefense attorneys and
(14:49):
prosecutors that are willing todo that, and you know they can
combine it with mental healthcourts because they do have that
.
But you know it's not somethingthat is curable.
So they have to learn theanatomy of the brain and how all
this plays into effect.
But if they were to do that, ifthey were to just get a court
where any judge willing toeducate themselves, yes, I agree
(15:14):
that would help tremendously.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
It totally amazes me.
My podcast this month and nextmonth is having 61 straight
episodes about autism, mentalhealth and the legal system.
My first guest this month was ajudge in Las Vegas.
She runs a court system thatdiverts the kids out of the
(15:36):
legal system as much as possible.
It's the only one in thecountry that does this.
It just shocks me that if shecan do it, no one else is trying
to do it either.
It didn't start out that way,but it just turned into one then
another.
Now she's the only court systemin Las Vegas and the country
(15:59):
that does this type of legalsystem for autistic children.
My issue is if she can do it,others around the country should
be looking and saying why can'twe do something like this?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
And these diversion laws arereally important.
I mean, virginia has it andMaryland's trying to get it, and
if that bill were to spreadthrough all the states?
You know, to divert these kids,these young adults, before they
even get in the court systemwould save a lot of grief and
(16:35):
money.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Millions.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Oh yeah, so divert them right there in the
beginning.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yes, absolutely.
I have a judge coming on thelatter part of this month.
He started a 218,000 squarefoot facility.
It covers a lot of mentalhealth issues, along with health
, dental and many other thingshe found by diverting them to
this.
As a rule, you don't see themthe second time.
It also saves the taxpayershundreds and hundreds of
(17:04):
thousands of dollars.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yes, and you know money talks.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
So that would be important.
If it's too bad, maybe theycouldn't get out there and
promote it more.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, unfortunately, we're in a situation where this
country and the judicial systemfor autistic people has lost
control.
It's sad we have not been ableto make things better, but here
we are 2025.
Another sad thing I heard theother day that the country's
biggest healthcare facility isthe LA County Prison, and that
(17:41):
shouldn't be prison, and thatshouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
No, no, yeah, they're using the prisons just to house
people.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
So true.
So if you would tell us alittle bit more about what you
do with your charity, in tryingto bring this to the attention
to the people that need to hearabout it.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Well, we can do some legislative work.
As a nonprofit, we can't do alot.
Our main focus is advocatingand giving these families
resources so that maybe they canget their child out of the
system.
So we work with psychologistsand attorneys that are willing
(18:24):
to educate themselves.
I would love to get the wordout there more if we were.
We don't have a lot of fundsright now.
I mean, we're just becoming anonprofit.
That would be huge where wecould really get the word out
and start, you know, movingacross the country a little bit
better if we had the funds forthat, because it's really the
(18:46):
public that we have to.
We have to show them that.
You know it's not strangerdanger For me.
It was someone I trusted nextdoor, you know, and that is
typically always the case.
You know these kids getmanipulated and they're so
trusting and they will trustanybody.
So I think that getting thepublic to understand that they
(19:12):
shouldn't be afraid of some youknow boogeyman coming, that it
could be teachers and coaches,and you know people they know.
So you know what they've triedto tell the public.
And I have to admit, when mychildren were younger and I
wasn't in this situation.
You know it's a scary thought.
(19:32):
You watch over your childrenbut they're showing now that you
know all these registries withrestrictions on residents and
things you can and can't do, andthey don't work, especially for
the autistic person, becauseyou know it just ruins their
life totally.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, unfortunately it is just so out of control.
It's kind of like when a kiddoes something bad, you don't
say anything.
30 days later you start toreprimand him for what he did.
He doesn't understand it.
He's really confused about it.
So to put that into our courtsystem, we've let it get so far
(20:10):
out of control that now youcan't go back and slap them on
the wrist because it's just outof control.
Somehow we have to get thejudges, the lawyers, the DAs.
We have to get them educatedabout autism so that way they
can look at it different andthen show a little compassion
(20:31):
and empathy towards the victimsget reelected and so it's the
public that they listen to andthat's why I say it.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
You know the public has to start changing their mind
and there are some people thathave come out.
The lady, the Wetterling lady,who started the registry way
back or proposed the registryway back, has changed her mind
on this.
She's become outspoken about itbut nobody's listening.
Really that's the problem.
(21:06):
And with our organization, whenwe try and go to the
legislatures and that and youtalk about, you know, the sex
word, you know they shut thatdown right away.
So we try to really concentrateon, you know, the individual,
the autism and why they'redifferent and why you know they
(21:29):
can be manipulated and why a lotof this is just a behavior, a
manifestation of theirdisability, and there's no
criminal intent involved.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Exactly, I hear that comment so much.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
That was pretty much.
You know, when I went for mypardon I made sure that I had
police chiefs and, like thisretired state's attorney and
everything, write letters to saythat and that is, I think, how
I managed to get my pardon,because the prison review board
was really open to their lettersof support.
You know, as far as the publicgoes, yeah, I think that's a
(22:07):
huge issue.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
The public just does not understand.
I started this podcast lessthan two years ago and up until
that point I knew absolutelynothing about autism.
Now that I've learned more andunderstand it more, I look at
things completely different thanI used to.
There's enough informationcoming out now so that if people
(22:28):
would actually dig into it alittle bit, they would find that
autism is not the perceptionthat they once thought it was.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Right, exactly, exactly.
Yeah, it's a constant push anda lot of other organizations
they do help.
They do a lot to help, butgetting into the criminal system
, that's a hard subject.
It's a hard subject and that'swhy our organization, we get
into it.
I mean we're in the mud with itand try and help these people
(22:58):
the best we can.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, that's a great thing that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So what would you like to tell the listeners that
you think it's very importantthat they need to know about
what you're doing?
I would say that educatingyourself on the differences in
the brain that's so important tolearn, because it's totally
different how the social aspectof individuals that are
developmentally disabled, howthey function and you know how
their behaviors are differentfrom someone neurotypical.
(23:31):
And I would say you really,really have to go and educate
yourself because, once again,when they get caught in the
system, it's a manifestation ofthese disabilities.
It is not any intent that'smeant to harm anyone or, you
know, commit a crime, and that'sso unfortunate because we have
(23:52):
to stop that.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
Well, this has been great Goodconversation, good information.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
No, no problem, Anytime.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you, enjoyed it as much as weenjoyed bringing it to you.
(24:28):
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere.
Tell everyone everywhere aboutwhy Not Me, the world, the
conversations we're having andthe inspiration our guests give
(24:50):
to everyone everywhere that youare not alone in this world.
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